So I follow the advice on this site about learning by ear (Twinkle twinkle, simple song tunes, scales etc) and after a few months it is starting to work (on the whistle). When it works I can do it with my eyes shut.
There are quite a few half-learned or half-forgotten tunes where the tricky bits either bring to mind letters for notes, finger positions or images of the sheet (sometimes with my scribbled annotations). For these bits I have to watch my fingers. I have been avoiding those tunes because I am afraid it may unto the good work. But they are tunes I like.
The recent discussion on reading music got me thinking that, although I can often play the rhythm of a dance tune in my head when looking at the dots there is not the slightist hint of pitch. The middle line is 'G' so 'three fingers', the line above is (perversley) 'two fingers' so 'A', F# I often have to think about. The pitch only happens as feedback when I blow.
Now, it would be quite useful to be able to read music better, and there are some things that do involve 'thinking fingers' and, for me, watching them (e.g. learning how to do a D cran).
So is it safe to start using my eyes as well as my ears yet ?
I almost never learn by ear (not that I can't -- that's how I pick up tunes *in* a session, but for preparation, almost never).
I find that playing the dots a whole lot of times eventually leads to memorization, if I foster it by sounding the tune without the music after I've played it a number of times.
Listening to the song many times without trying to play it (ie. on an ipod walking down the street) also helps a bunch.
I realize that I'm kinda weird though, and a lot of people have trouble memorizing from sheet music.
Thanks.
In truth, I have been taking an occassional peek which made me realise how different the process was.
Kriana -Yes there a few tunes that I learnt using the dots (having already heard the tune) that I have repeated enough not to have to think about my fingers. But for me 'playing the dots' just amounts to building it up slowly phrase by phrase until I have it roughly in memory then using the music as a reminder. If I try to 'memorize from the sheet' I actually remember an image of the sheet, not the tune.
And before the dot-haters start up - the ones I can play without thinking much about fingers or notes are the ones where the fingers later start doing what I have heard rather than seen.
"Memorizing from sheet music is practicaly impossible". That's how I see it anyway.Your ears as well as your eyes are doing the work as you look at the dots and play the music. The secret (and it isn't really a secret) is have faith in your ears and your ability to train yourself to learn by ear. The fact that you can read music is great but given the structure of ITM music it is better to learn by ear. Nobody is suggesting that you would learn classical music or other forms of music this way. The issue really is understanding the structure of ITM music and WHY it is better to learn by ear. That's what so many people so relient on the dots fail to grasp.
Is it safe? Well I guess you have to work out what works for you. I personally use my ears to learn new tunes. That's not to say I think there is great value in being able to read and I share music with friends and other musicians by lending and borrowing tune books etc.
There's a harmonica player who turns up at one of our sessions occasionally. He plays only song tunes (i.e. the ones with lyrics) on his harmonica, but the strange thing he can only play a tune if he has the words of the song in front of him - not the music.
I had been listening to this music (and its Scottish and English relatives) for years before I thought of trying to play it (or any other sort of music). At that point I could not recognise even the basic structure (A part, B part, times repeated) of the tunes. If I went to a 'barn dance' I had to count to 8, 16 or whatever to avoid tripping people up. It didnt quite 'all sound the same' but not far off. But I did enjoy the rhythms.
Without the music I would never have got started - I had to see some patterns before I could learn to hear them . I seem to have a bias towards the visual rather than the aural.
Yes, Lazyhound I can identify with that approach. The process that started with twinkle twinkle and recently produced something not unlike the Kesh Jig went via various song tunes and conjured up, for the first time in decades, images of the big sheets hung over the blackboard, sitting cross-legged on the floor singing The Minstrel Boy , The Ash Grove etc with Miss Smith on the piano.
Feardearg's approach is valid, and can work for many people. Classical musicians who play solo are familiar with it, for example. I think what happens is that the musician is NOT memorising the appearance of the score (like you would a photo, for example), but is "hearing" the music by repeatedly reading the dots and getting the music into his brain as music by means of his virtual "ears", much as one would learn a tune live from a tutor in a workshop. When the music is in the brain as music then the player would start working out the finer detail at the instrument. By reading the score the musician will also get a good overall view of the all-important structure and architecture of the music.
A classic example of this was many years ago when the pianist Artur Rubinstein had to perform at very short notice a concerto he did not know. He read the score during a train journey to the concert hall, worked out the music in his head, and performed the work a few hours later. Exceptional, perhaps, but shows what can be done when you're under pressure - as some band players will confirm when they've had to learn sets of new tunes the day before a gig.
It's worth pointing out that merely memorising the appearance of the sheet of music, and nothing more, would be dangerous, because if you rely on that visual image of the page then you would be doing no more than sight-reading, and the slightest distraction could cause the "page" to fall on the floor
My virtual ears only hear what's gone into my head through the real ones.
And the real ones don't seem to hear my voice too well - I sometimes can't work out whether one note is higher or lower than the next. Humming is better, but thats because I can feel the difference in my throat. But once I do have a note (on the whistle or singing) I am usually aware of the intonation and can bring it into line.
Once I do have a tune diddling, even in my head, seems to be a work for freshening up the memory
Amen, feardearg. I use this approach to a variety of music -- not just ITM. Problem is, I keep killing off brain cells, especially the ones that hold bits of tunes (so it seems), so I have to occasionally go back to the dots to refresh the memory, especially if playing on my own (the "Oh, yeah...I know how this goes!" moment). Once there, the tunes stick around for a while again.
So to feardearg's list, I'd add toward the end, "Play periodically to keep the tune(s) fresh in the memory."
Put name of tune in database
After nine or ten new tunes, print list and laminate
Take list everywhere. Practice time may present self.
Play list at least once a week
Mark a spot by tune momentarily forgotten
Review dots for spots at TheSession.org
Kick self for forgetting such a familiar tune
If you're seeing dots you might want to get your eyes checked.
Actually, I had considered a thread on outing the readers and users of the various froms of notation but held back... Check out the history on the tunes "The Bank of Turf" for one example... With a very few exceptions, most Irish musicians can read some form of notation and have learned a tune or two through that medium...
Thanks folks. I'm going to look - but for the time being only when I get stuck with part of a tune.
And its got me thinking that maybe what I have got a bit better at is not so much getting tunes into my head (? learning by ear)but getting them out again (? playing by ear). There is an old discussion that I can't find now where one of the regulars here talks about needing to 'think whistle' to find the notes that are in ones mind.
Getting late, where's that blue-tack ?
Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
So I follow the advice on this site about learning by ear (Twinkle twinkle, simple song tunes, scales etc) and after a few months it is starting to work (on the whistle). When it works I can do it with my eyes shut.
There are quite a few half-learned or half-forgotten tunes where the tricky bits either bring to mind letters for notes, finger positions or images of the sheet (sometimes with my scribbled annotations). For these bits I have to watch my fingers. I have been avoiding those tunes because I am afraid it may unto the good work. But they are tunes I like.
The recent discussion on reading music got me thinking that, although I can often play the rhythm of a dance tune in my head when looking at the dots there is not the slightist hint of pitch. The middle line is 'G' so 'three fingers', the line above is (perversley) 'two fingers' so 'A', F# I often have to think about. The pitch only happens as feedback when I blow.
Now, it would be quite useful to be able to read music better, and there are some things that do involve 'thinking fingers' and, for me, watching them (e.g. learning how to do a D cran).
So is it safe to start using my eyes as well as my ears yet ?
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by david_h
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
Er, I meant the second line up - maybe I'd best not look.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by david_h
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
I think the answer is "yes", just never _stop_ using your ears.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
I almost never learn by ear (not that I can't -- that's how I pick up tunes *in* a session, but for preparation, almost never).
I find that playing the dots a whole lot of times eventually leads to memorization, if I foster it by sounding the tune without the music after I've played it a number of times.
Listening to the song many times without trying to play it (ie. on an ipod walking down the street) also helps a bunch.
I realize that I'm kinda weird though, and a lot of people have trouble memorizing from sheet music.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by Kriana
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
Thanks.
In truth, I have been taking an occassional peek which made me realise how different the process was.
Kriana -Yes there a few tunes that I learnt using the dots (having already heard the tune) that I have repeated enough not to have to think about my fingers. But for me 'playing the dots' just amounts to building it up slowly phrase by phrase until I have it roughly in memory then using the music as a reminder. If I try to 'memorize from the sheet' I actually remember an image of the sheet, not the tune.
And before the dot-haters start up - the ones I can play without thinking much about fingers or notes are the ones where the fingers later start doing what I have heard rather than seen.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by david_h
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
"Memorizing from sheet music is practicaly impossible". That's how I see it anyway.Your ears as well as your eyes are doing the work as you look at the dots and play the music. The secret (and it isn't really a secret) is have faith in your ears and your ability to train yourself to learn by ear. The fact that you can read music is great but given the structure of ITM music it is better to learn by ear. Nobody is suggesting that you would learn classical music or other forms of music this way. The issue really is understanding the structure of ITM music and WHY it is better to learn by ear. That's what so many people so relient on the dots fail to grasp.
Is it safe? Well I guess you have to work out what works for you. I personally use my ears to learn new tunes. That's not to say I think there is great value in being able to read and I share music with friends and other musicians by lending and borrowing tune books etc.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by Jon_bailey
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
There's a harmonica player who turns up at one of our sessions occasionally. He plays only song tunes (i.e. the ones with lyrics) on his harmonica, but the strange thing he can only play a tune if he has the words of the song in front of him - not the music.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
I had been listening to this music (and its Scottish and English relatives) for years before I thought of trying to play it (or any other sort of music). At that point I could not recognise even the basic structure (A part, B part, times repeated) of the tunes. If I went to a 'barn dance' I had to count to 8, 16 or whatever to avoid tripping people up. It didnt quite 'all sound the same' but not far off. But I did enjoy the rhythms.
Without the music I would never have got started - I had to see some patterns before I could learn to hear them . I seem to have a bias towards the visual rather than the aural.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by david_h
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
Yes, Lazyhound I can identify with that approach. The process that started with twinkle twinkle and recently produced something not unlike the Kesh Jig went via various song tunes and conjured up, for the first time in decades, images of the big sheets hung over the blackboard, sitting cross-legged on the floor singing The Minstrel Boy , The Ash Grove etc with Miss Smith on the piano.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by david_h
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
My approach:
Hear tune I like
Look up ABC on this site
Print dots
Play till memorized
Practice and improve
Sue me.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
Feardearg's approach is valid, and can work for many people. Classical musicians who play solo are familiar with it, for example. I think what happens is that the musician is NOT memorising the appearance of the score (like you would a photo, for example), but is "hearing" the music by repeatedly reading the dots and getting the music into his brain as music by means of his virtual "ears", much as one would learn a tune live from a tutor in a workshop. When the music is in the brain as music then the player would start working out the finer detail at the instrument. By reading the score the musician will also get a good overall view of the all-important structure and architecture of the music.
A classic example of this was many years ago when the pianist Artur Rubinstein had to perform at very short notice a concerto he did not know. He read the score during a train journey to the concert hall, worked out the music in his head, and performed the work a few hours later. Exceptional, perhaps, but shows what can be done when you're under pressure - as some band players will confirm when they've had to learn sets of new tunes the day before a gig.
It's worth pointing out that merely memorising the appearance of the sheet of music, and nothing more, would be dangerous, because if you rely on that visual image of the page then you would be doing no more than sight-reading, and the slightest distraction could cause the "page" to fall on the floor
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
learn to sing or diddle a tune,once youcan do that you will never forget it
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
My virtual ears only hear what's gone into my head through the real ones.
And the real ones don't seem to hear my voice too well - I sometimes can't work out whether one note is higher or lower than the next. Humming is better, but thats because I can feel the difference in my throat. But once I do have a note (on the whistle or singing) I am usually aware of the intonation and can bring it into line.
Once I do have a tune diddling, even in my head, seems to be a work for freshening up the memory
[and I just discovered about losing posts]
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by david_h
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
should be "seems to work for freshening" - typing too fast the second time.
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by david_h
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
Amen, feardearg. I use this approach to a variety of music -- not just ITM. Problem is, I keep killing off brain cells, especially the ones that hold bits of tunes (so it seems), so I have to occasionally go back to the dots to refresh the memory, especially if playing on my own (the "Oh, yeah...I know how this goes!" moment). Once there, the tunes stick around for a while again.
So to feardearg's list, I'd add toward the end, "Play periodically to keep the tune(s) fresh in the memory."
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by pn5jn
FearDearg continues
Put name of tune in database
After nine or ten new tunes, print list and laminate
Take list everywhere. Practice time may present self.
Play list at least once a week
Mark a spot by tune momentarily forgotten
Review dots for spots at TheSession.org
Kick self for forgetting such a familiar tune
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
As was said in a previous thread. A good musician makes use of all available resources.
Mary
# Posted on May 4th 2007 by Antikhntr
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
It's not safe to look at the dots.........
trad police will hunt you down & gitcha.
# Posted on May 5th 2007 by morning star
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
If you're seeing dots you might want to get your eyes checked.
Actually, I had considered a thread on outing the readers and users of the various froms of notation but held back... Check out the history on the tunes "The Bank of Turf" for one example... With a very few exceptions, most Irish musicians can read some form of notation and have learned a tune or two through that medium...
# Posted on May 5th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Is it safe to look (at the dots) yet ?
Thanks folks. I'm going to look - but for the time being only when I get stuck with part of a tune.
And its got me thinking that maybe what I have got a bit better at is not so much getting tunes into my head (? learning by ear)but getting them out again (? playing by ear). There is an old discussion that I can't find now where one of the regulars here talks about needing to 'think whistle' to find the notes that are in ones mind.
Getting late, where's that blue-tack ?
# Posted on May 5th 2007 by david_h