Through a number of recent discussions I have come, I think, to a much better idea of the kinds of repertoires that some people have. I've even done some tabulation and analysis to try and grasp the difference between what have been called "core" tunes (tunes that you are kind of expected to know, but that may not be played because everybody's tired of them, though they can be good as set-enders with which most players can join in), tunes that are actually widely played at the moment, and tunes that are what might be called rare or obscure, depending on the spin you want to put on it.
This has been particularly interesting to me because I was on a "tune-learning break" pretty much for the whole of 2006 and even more, but since the start of this year I have been learning tunes regularly again. Many of the tunes I learn I choose simply because I like them, of course, but it is also appropriate to take into account tunes that will be useful in sessions.
Judging the size of somebody else's repertoire is, of course, not always easy. What does someone else mean when they say they "know" tune? I realize that in some cases people mean that they are familiar with the tune and (perhaps assisted by considerable fluency on their instrument), they can "wing it" in a session when somebody else plays the tune in question. On the other hand they may not know the name of the tune, and it may not be one that they can start up with because, although they kind of know it, they do not know that they know it.
However, although that may sometimes be the case, it is not the way I would use the word "know" about a tune, and it has become apparent that there are people who know (even in the slightly stricter sense of the word that I prefer) numbers of tunes that quite astonish me. A little elementary arithmetic shows that these people are able to learn tunes far, far more quickly than I can. Generally speaking, my memory is not bad. I would even guess it is on the better side of average. But when I read, as I did on a recent thread, of someone learning his 20th tune so far this week, my eyes start swivelling in strange, spiral patterns within my skull.
If I remember correctly, the "musical biography" of Johnny O'Leary came to the conclusion that his repertoire must, at least, be well over 1000 tunes. At the time I read this I thought it was right to be impressed, but I think he was in his 80s at the time the book was written, so had a musical career of quite a few decades behind him. At a tune a week, sometimes more, here and there a tune forgotten, you would reach a repertoire of that size by late in life. Yet from what I have been learning, this is not remarkable at all.
My own experience is on a much lower plane. Frankly, I find learning two tunes a week quite hard going. Yes, sometimes I can learn almost two tunes a day if they are simple, but if I carry on like that for more than a few days I start to get confused. How does a particular tune start? Am I playing the right second part for this tune, or is that the second part from the tune I learnt a week ago? Or, for the life of me, I won't be able to remember the fourth part of a five-part reel. And so on. I then have to make sure I don't learn any tunes at all for several days, but keep revising the new additions. So my net rate of tune learning varies between about one a week, which I find fairly easy, and two a week, which I find fairly hard going. And I suspect that if I gave up everything else I was interested in order to focus on learning tunes, I would still be lucky to pass three a week.
I also have to confess that the idea, spoken of by some, that you can learn tunes by "osmosis" does not work for me. I may *think* that it works until I come down to actually playing the tune, when I find that osmosis has only given me a very general shape, but the real phrases, runs, patterns, whatever don't become clear to me unless I really focus my attention on them.
So what is the norm? How fast can you / do you learn tunes?
Over the last two weeks I have learned 5 tunes.
2 Highlands,2 Reels and a Jig.My Teacher seems to be focusing on Donegal music for the moment.I learned the first highland of my teacher and the rest by ear.
I am a somewhat new player, and people say that I am learning tunes very very fast. So I will offer the philosophy of how I try to do it.
I sit in a friendly session where I am allowed to "noodle" a considerable bit on the fiddle, and I can pick up tunes by listening. This is a process that takes many nights, even months for each tune, so I am always confused when someone asks "what's the latest tune you've learned?" In truth I probably have 50 tunes in various stages of learning. Some I can get the melody in my head but cannot play on the fiddle at all. Some I can only play a few bars, or a note or two after each downbeat. Some I have most of the A part and none of the B part. Some I have the entire tune except for a few confusing transitions. Some I have the whole tune but don't have my bowing coordinated enough to play at speed yet. Of the tunes I learn by ear, most I cannot start but can play when someone else has started it. I often don't remember the name. I would say I do not choose to learn these tunes but rather "they choose me." And the tune seems not to be stored in my head but in my fingertips. Often I will try to learn by watching another fiddler's fingers as he plays, but I'm not sure this gives better results than simply listening.
I've found that tunes I learn from dots (or learn first by ear and then practice a while from the dots for reinforcement) are easier for me to start in a session or remember the title to. So lately I have begun to search thesession.org for tunes which I "sort-of know." The sheet music for these tunes is incredibly easy for me to work from (as opposed to tunes I'm starting fresh with, and don't have the melody in my head or fingers at all).
In the past 8 months I have learned at least 100 tunes, but I'm not really sure exactly.
To sum up I would say that I don't really learn tunes by "osmosis." But a sort of osmosis is the first step in the process, which I then take and polish off with sheet music.
Some tunes latch on to me and just stick immediately. Other tunes have an impression on me and I think, yes, that is my sort of tune and I leave the dots around and play every day for a month.
Hi Alex. Good on ya for learning the tunes. I used to find tune learning pretty hard going. But then I found that the more I learnt, the easier it became. Now I find that if I have what you describe as the "general shape" from repeated hearings in sessions, I often have the detail as well, because a lot of the phrases in tunes are the same, or can be made to be the same without changing the essence of the tune. So for example I hear a B-part, say, that goes like this:
I dunno if that's even a real tune off the top of my head, but if I heard it in a session, I'd first of all realise that it's much like the B-parts of a whole load of other tunes that go d2fd Adfd. So I start putting it together. I know that I can also safely go up to the top A without ruining the tune, so I can go d2fd adfd. And then this is why that's important, because *then* I can ignore that phrase and concentrate on the rest. I'd then listen hard to what's happening in between each of those phrases. I'd notice that the first time, there's a bit that doesn't really move anywhere at the end of the 2nd bar (Beec). I might just play something similar like defd egfe until I'd figured out what it was supposed to be. Then I'd notice that the next bit of interest goes up. I'd first of all work out how far it goes up. It goes up to g. That phrase (3Bcd ef g.. I've met in so many other tunes, so it'd come out automatically. Then once I've done all that, I've only got the last 2 bars to figure out instead of a whole part.
Most tunes you can learn like this, by building up common phrases in "blocks". Obviously some tunes have unique phrases in them, and those are the ones that take longer to learn. So speed in learning tunes comes from a familiarity with how the detail fits together. Unfortunately, that familiarity can only be gained through learning lots of tunes. You've just got to believe in what I've said - that it only gets easier.
What you said earlier shows clearly why you're having difficulty:
"I also have to confess that the idea, spoken of by some, that you can learn tunes by "osmosis" does not work for me. I may *think* that it works until I come down to actually playing the tune, when I find that osmosis has only given me a very general shape, but the real phrases, runs, patterns, whatever don't become clear to me unless I really focus my attention on them."
That shows that, whilst you're on the right track because you're using your ear and picking up the "general shape" of tunes by osmosis, the detail isn't coming easily because you haven't learnt enough tunes to have a repertoire of phrases. That's the crux of it really - you'll realise that learning Irish tunes is less about learning tunes than learning a repertoire of phrases like d2fd Adfd in different keys like G = G2BG DGBG etc that you can just plug into the tunes without thinking about it. What happened with me was I reached this stage where I suddenly found I could play more tunes than I thought I knew, just because the detail had filled itself in without me even making an effort to learn the tune. That's hugely satisfying, and you'll know it when it happens.
It depends on the tune. Some are session regulars so I have picked them up from years of hearing them, others I can hear just once and know I have to learn them. The Humours of Lissadell was one such tune which I think I found dots for on this site but also managed to get posted on tradlessons.com which was great 'cos I prefer to learn them by ear if possible. I spent the week listening to and playing it and the following week was able to play it at the session.
I seem to be picking up new tunes quite regularly at the moment. I think because the main man at the session is a fountain of knowledge where traditional music is concerned, and a great whistle/flute player to boot. He comes up with tunes I don't know all the time, and has even given me some cd's of people I had never come across before, Michael Dwyer and Jo Mckenna.
Without this kind of inspiration I don't think I would be learning new tunes quite so fast or regularly.
LOL! Maybe in Michael's universe, time is measured differently, sorta like doggie years vs. human years, so he's probably 500 Michael years old by now.
Dow, that building block idea is really encouraging. You somehow suspect that's the way things work from tunes like The Silver Spear, Connachtman's Rambles, Maid Behind the Bar etc. with their common elements, but being reminded that the breakthrough will come has brightened my day.
"Maybe in Michael's universe, time is measured differently, sorta like doggie years vs. human years, so he's probably 500 Michael years old by now."
In that case he should avoid me, lest he be bored to a premature death.
Actually, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that, no matter how quickly you can learn a tune well enough to play it, you never stop learning it as long as you continue to play it or hear it played. Ideally, I would like this to be the case for all the tunes I play. However, my current lack of exposure to good sessions - and my preference for listening to Radio 4 and Radio Cymru over my CD collection means that many of my tunes are lying dormant for the time being. But I just went to visit the source of the Severn yesterday, 9 miles from my door - I witnessed a puddle in a bog turning into a river in the space of 1/4 mile. How can I swap that for living in some hive of musical activity?
When my breakthrough happened, I had learnt all these tunes, and then all of a sudden I was going to sessions in different places and I found I could play maybe 80-90% of the tunes. The new tunes I was learning were all what I'd call more "obscure" tunes, and I'd only rarely come across a session standard that had somehow slipped past the radar. I realised that a lot of the tunes I'd gone to the trouble of learning I never actually needed, and if I'd known which tunes to learn from the start, and chosen my tunes according to session playability, I could have got to that stage more quickly. I chose tunes according to whether I liked them or not, which is great because I play a bunch of tunes I really like, but that's not necessarily good if you want to make yourself sessionable-with. I'd say that until you get your first 5 or 600 tunes, the best approach is to see how many people in the session are playing each tune. If there's only one person playing solo, leave it until you have a few more tunes under your belt. If there are a lot of people playing, chances are it'll be a standard and worth knowing so you can join in next time. If you like it, learn it. If you don't, leave it, and eventually it'll filter in anyway and you might learn to like it.
Beginner though I am, I think I know what Michael means. It only takes me an evening to learn a tune, and a week or so practicing it before I can play it reliably. But I have to play around with it for months before I feel like I know it to any extent---I have to play it at different speeds, with different amounts of swing, different ornaments in different places, try playing it the way other people play it, etc., until it feels comfortable.
Which kind of speaks to Bellman's original post---how can you get to be really comfortable with any one tune if you're learning a new one every day? One or two a week seems like a good amount of time to let them sink in.
It all depends on what I have going on elsewhere in my life. For a while, (don't kill me on this) I had to stop playing because my attention was needed at the store working on several different projects. Now that I am able to play some more, I have found that some of the tunes I had been working on, I will need to start over on.
Right now, There are about three or four I am working on. Three that I am definitely familiar with, and one that is completely new for me.
Kennedy, I don't think there's much harm in skimming over learning a tune in a day or so, and then moving on. Or alternatively, giving your attention to a tune in a session, and thinking "that's nice", and then forgetting about it. The fact is, you'll probably find that you'll rediscover these tunes later when you hear them again, and you'll find you'll half know them, and it'll make you want to go away and relearn them. The second time you'll find it's much easier. That's happened to me zillions of times.
I know what you're saying, Dow---I have about ten tunes percolating in that process right now---I know the notes, can play them without thinking too hard, but they really sound half-baked. At some point you have to bear down and polish the tunes and give them life---and don't you think that takes time, perhaps weeks or even months?
Yes, but I find that sometimes the "giving life" process can happen even without you playing it. You can come back to a tune months or years later with a fresh approach to it, and some new techniques you've picked up on the way which will help you express what you're hearing in your head that bit better.
But yes basically I agree with you. Tunes take years to settle in, just like a new pair of shoes can fit, but not be as comfortable as your old ones. I only have a handful of tunes I *really* know inside out like that.
Looking back over the tunes I know, I would say that I only REALLY learn them on an average of one every month or two. There are some I have a passing aquaintance with, but it can take some time before I know them enough to lead them off in a session (and that is melodies, I don't count the tunes I learn to accompany, that is a different kettle of fish entirely).
Though some people just seem unable to get aquainted casually. They ask for a CV, and and if one isn't forthcoming, they trawl web sites to get one. They then commit the CV to memory, tick it off on a spread sheet and move on. Not an ideal way of making friends, in my opinion. But they say it saves time.
Never mind, I'll save you the trouble. Only one person (silver bow) has talked about using sheet music, and only then to reinforce the process of learning by ear. Everyone else has talked about learning tunes. Not using printed aids for memory. Just acquiring melodies and making them stick.
It's just this old expired horse you're compelled to drag into our midst every so often, isn't it?
Dow's theory is telling. He knows thousands of tunes. But he doesn't even give them the respect of being individuals. Merely bits sewn together. He is Frankenstein
How many is enough? For my purposes, enough to participate in the sessions I go to and that I want to go to. So as a practical number, that will probably be about 500 tunes. I'm years off.
But the number isn't the point! Learning the tune is half the fun! I'll be learning new tunes until they pry my fiddle out of my old hands one day, I'm sure.
LOL @ llig. Seriously though, when I first started learning Irish tunes, I thought "they all sound the same", and then I learnt a few and decided "they all sound different and individual", and now I'm back to "they all sound the same" again
I know what you're saying, llig, about learning tunes to be able to participate. You're right, really. A lot of the tunes I "know", I haven't given enough respect to if I'm absolutely honest with myself. I've learnt it just because bb or someone plays it at my session and I want to play along with them. I haven't taken the time to make the tune my own and get to know it like a friend. But at least I'm aware of this. I'm fully aware that I haven't got the tune. I don't claim to have it really. I only claim to have maybe less than 20 tunes that are really mine in the sense that you describe. That's why I'm not a brilliant player, and it's why I want to keep playing and get better.
That's not to say that I think the playing I've done until now has been a waste of time. I've enjoyed what I've learnt, and I now have a bunch of tunes I can play in sessions, but now I can go on to actually become a musician.
Something tells me this is one of those threads where Michael actually has a very good point to make but isn't expressing himself clearly enough to make it obvious to everyone. So Michael, will you please elaborate on what you're thinking instead of making all the cryptic comments?
I think what he means is that if you really love the music, then you shouldn't be learning tunes just to be able to participate in a session. You should simply listen and pick up the ones you like for no other reason than that you like them and want to create music as an artform for pleasure. I see what he's saying, but I'd argue that in order to acquire the know-how to be able to see the big picture and do what he's saying, you first have to be able to play. And to be able to play, you have to know tunes.
It takes me about two weeks to get a tune down. After that, I continue to work on variations, ornaments, and just improving overall comfort with the tune. But I have it in my head so I can start it without a prompt and can remember all the notes within two weeks.
I try not to work on more than three tunes at any given time, and once I'm up to three, I won't try to learn more until I truly feel "at one" with the three new ones.
By "knowing" in this case, what I mean is be able to play a tune in a session and make it sound reasonable, rather than knowing in the sense of having the tune with you for years and being totally familiar with it. I argue that if you spent decades on the same 10 tunes becoming totally familiar with them, that wouldn't make you any better than a musician who learnt 500 tunes and spent less time on each. You really have to balance it and do both simultaneously: get the repertoire and give each tune time. That's why it takes years to become a good muso.
“if you really love the music, then you shouldn't be learning tunes just to be able to participate in a session. You should simply listen and pick up the ones you like for no other reason than that you like them and want to create music as an artform for pleasure”
Okay, if that *is* what he’s saying, then here’s what I think---
1. I love the music and that’s why I’m learning it. (Prize for most obvious statement of the year)
2. I want to participate in sessions because they’re fun (more obvious yada yada)
3. Playing in sessions will actually help me become a better player. This one maybe isn’t so obvious, although it fits in with a lot of what we’ve heard Michael say in the past---needing to learn to listen, participating in the tradition, learning tunes properly from another human being, etc. In my case, it’s changed my whole approach to learning. I’m practicing my tunes all the way through now, trying to make them perfect, because I want to be able to have other people hear them. In that way, sessions are a strong incentive to learn and learn well. I don’t see what’s wrong with any of that.
In fact maybe this is Michael's new game. Instead of making obvious cynical comment, make cryptic comment and then sit back and watch others argue about what he may or may not have meant
As a beginner, 'knowing a tune' still means playing it alone at the right speed, good rhythm and all the notes in the right order (remember Eric Morecambe?). but I'm aiming higher than that in the future.
Seeing as there is only one tune anyway, I think I can safely say that none of us (who are alive) really *know* it yet.
I know parts of it. You know other parts of it.
The parts that we both know we can play together.
Isn't that the fun part?
This has been bugging me and I think I finally figured out what Michael was getting at. He said,
“I've come across this purpose for learning tunes before ... to be able to participate. With the actual act of learning being a mere 50%, at best.”
And I’ve seen this before---the dislike of people who buy a bodhran and monkey around with it for a week just so they can join in a session. That I can understand. But there is no way to do that with a fiddle or a box or a flute or lots of other complicated instruments. If the only reason I were learning tunes was because I wanted to play in a session, I would have given up in frustration long ago. Sessions are a big incentive, sure, but we’re talking about some seriously delayed gratification. You’ve got to love the music and the process of learning and the small achievements along the way or it’s not worth it. I only learned ONE tune in my first five months of lessons! And I *still* can’t play that one the way I want it to sound…
It takes me about ten to fifteen focused minutes to commit the notes and timing of a tune to memory. It takes me the next three or four days of mucking around before I settle on a bowing that does more or less what I want it to do. After a week or so, my rendition of the tune stagnates unless I hear it on a recording, or hear/play it at a session, or (best of all) get some feedback about it from my teacher - at which point I'll try to integrate whatever I've learned when I work on the tune some more.
As far as how long it takes before I learn the tune to my satisfaction...well, I'll get back to you when that happens.
Playing ITM is about having fun unless you're one of the 0.001% who make a living out of it. You'll find you own way. There are no rules. There really are no rules. I can play around 500 tunes. I learned a new one last month, from the dots. First new one for ages. Was playing it to perfection in 20 minutes. It is called My Darling Asleep. See? I told you there were no rules! 'Scuse...I have to do the Kesh Jig tonight...
How fast I learn a tune really depends on how interesting it is for me. Does it catch my imagination!, do I have a vision of how I want the tune to sound. I do think it's good practice to try and work towards a finished piece of music, arrangement, interpretation of the tune. For one, it shows you have made an attempt at understanding the music.
You can always play around with the tune at anytime, but it's a good way of getting a tune under your belt and move on with building up a repertoire.
That might also lead to writing one's own tunes and that can be another challenge, but well worth the experience.
When writing your own tunes, I would imagine that having a tune thats `finished` is very satisfying. Either way I do think it's very much a personal journey of discovery and there ain't no rush, except in the music itself.
Since I'm a newcomer to trad, as well as being the relatively advanced age of 56, I know I will never have the repertoire of my far more esteemed session.orgers.
So, here is what I do- sticking to Dow's Top 50 List (and what a resource it is!) I try to learn one tune a week, alternating between jigs and reels. I am 100% dot-bound and start that way, then play the tune constantly all week. I sing it in the car, and keep an extra PVC flute next to me as I drive (and I get the funniest looks at traffic lights)
So, when these tunes come up in our session, if I know the tune I lift the flute, and if I don't, I lift my pint.
Greg, don't give up on yourself so fast. You've got a good 25 to 30 years at least of playing music in front of you, and that's enough time to learn and enjoy a wealth of tunes. With your music background, it won't be long before you're picking them up more readily, and by ear, too, and things will just grow easier from there.
...and all that "idle" time after retirement--sure, you'll be a tune hound before you're 70!
i average about two tunes a week, learned from recordings. but they are tunes "marinated" from lots of listening first. i've been slacking off for several and am catching up by learning three pairs of tunes right now, but it's really "learning" in quotes, since they are on records i've had in the car stereo for about a month and are in the brain pretty well.....i marinate them and then simmer a spell before putting them on the grill.....last pair before the slack-off was "the corner house" and "old torn petticoat" off of kitty hayes' "touch of clare." in the pipeline are "mcdonagh's" and "aggie whyte's" from pat o'connor's "humours of derrybegha, two eddie kelly jigs played by mandy murray on the "anglo international" concertina anthology, plus the first set of reels on christ droney's "return from bell harbor." they include "the master's return," can't remember the other two titles. after that, now marinating, will be "sailing into walpole's marsh" and "humours of scariff." my weak point is standard top session faves. to put in all the work of practicing, i have to be learning stuff i love, and the stuff i love isn't big where i live, so i'm weak on the session biggies...
"Playing ITM is about having fun" is a particularly anodyne irrelevance. i.e. it's placation that dulls your sensibility. It's a meaningless thing to say.
I hardly meant it as a soothing thing to say. OK. Playing ITM should be taken seriously to the point of misery. You should be grateful that you're allowed to play it, even though we're not paying you to do so. And is that your idea of playing it? Haven't you ever listened to your elders and betters? How long haven't you been playing this anyway, if "playing" is the right word? We strongly suspect that you are in clandestine possession of dots. A smile will have you evicted from the pub and whatever you do do not banter between tunes, which is tantamount to laughing out loud during Holy Communion. Fun? Don't you come in here swearing like that! And I suppose you know thast you simply do not DO that in hornpipes. What do you mean, we can do what we like because no-one's listening anyway? Out with you, verminous object!
Phew. That's better. I've purged my anodynitudinousness at last!
Your statement, "Playing ITM is about having fun" was meant to appease or pacify. It was a conciliatory gesture. But not just this, it sought to pacify by lessening the sensibility of the brain. To reduce the argument, not to add or expand it. It was a particularly anodyne irrelevance.
First, I hum the tune to myself as I hear it being played in the session. If I'm lucky, during the 3 times it gets played, I'll be able to pick out the basic structure.
The next time someone plays it in a session, I'll pick out some more of the melody and structure.
This process goes on for months, maybe years, and eventually I'll get it and be able to play along with it.
If I can get a good recording of the tune, I will slow it down in Audacity and listen to that version on my iPod. I will also listen to the fast version on my iPod and on my computer.
Eventually, I can play it along with the rest in a session.
But knowing a song well enough to actually start it? Honestly, that is the hardest thing of all. The old brain does not necessarily remember the starting phrase, nor do the old fingers necessarily remember the starting notes. I simply haven't figured out how to retain that information from month to month. I salute those of you who start the tunes!
i can learn about a tune a day. i usually dont, because i spend most of my practice time working on my tone for flute and my arm coordination for concertina. usually i get my tone/muscles to where i want them to be, then work on tunes for a couple weeks, and then go back to technique for a couple months.
a tune a day is averaged out over a week. its just about impossible to learn a tune you've never played before in a day, even if you spend a whole day on it... it has to settle in your mind for at least two days, even if you dont play it, in order for it to pop out of your fingers.
if i work on two or three or four in a day, by the end of the week i would have at least seven worked out. i dont really practice everyday and learn new tunes less than that.
if i dropped out of school and quit my job i could probably learn 3 or 4 a day, again, averaging over a week. i think i'd get bored though.
How fast do you learn tunes?
How fast do you learn tunes?
Through a number of recent discussions I have come, I think, to a much better idea of the kinds of repertoires that some people have. I've even done some tabulation and analysis to try and grasp the difference between what have been called "core" tunes (tunes that you are kind of expected to know, but that may not be played because everybody's tired of them, though they can be good as set-enders with which most players can join in), tunes that are actually widely played at the moment, and tunes that are what might be called rare or obscure, depending on the spin you want to put on it.
This has been particularly interesting to me because I was on a "tune-learning break" pretty much for the whole of 2006 and even more, but since the start of this year I have been learning tunes regularly again. Many of the tunes I learn I choose simply because I like them, of course, but it is also appropriate to take into account tunes that will be useful in sessions.
Judging the size of somebody else's repertoire is, of course, not always easy. What does someone else mean when they say they "know" tune? I realize that in some cases people mean that they are familiar with the tune and (perhaps assisted by considerable fluency on their instrument), they can "wing it" in a session when somebody else plays the tune in question. On the other hand they may not know the name of the tune, and it may not be one that they can start up with because, although they kind of know it, they do not know that they know it.
However, although that may sometimes be the case, it is not the way I would use the word "know" about a tune, and it has become apparent that there are people who know (even in the slightly stricter sense of the word that I prefer) numbers of tunes that quite astonish me. A little elementary arithmetic shows that these people are able to learn tunes far, far more quickly than I can. Generally speaking, my memory is not bad. I would even guess it is on the better side of average. But when I read, as I did on a recent thread, of someone learning his 20th tune so far this week, my eyes start swivelling in strange, spiral patterns within my skull.
If I remember correctly, the "musical biography" of Johnny O'Leary came to the conclusion that his repertoire must, at least, be well over 1000 tunes. At the time I read this I thought it was right to be impressed, but I think he was in his 80s at the time the book was written, so had a musical career of quite a few decades behind him. At a tune a week, sometimes more, here and there a tune forgotten, you would reach a repertoire of that size by late in life. Yet from what I have been learning, this is not remarkable at all.
My own experience is on a much lower plane. Frankly, I find learning two tunes a week quite hard going. Yes, sometimes I can learn almost two tunes a day if they are simple, but if I carry on like that for more than a few days I start to get confused. How does a particular tune start? Am I playing the right second part for this tune, or is that the second part from the tune I learnt a week ago? Or, for the life of me, I won't be able to remember the fourth part of a five-part reel. And so on. I then have to make sure I don't learn any tunes at all for several days, but keep revising the new additions. So my net rate of tune learning varies between about one a week, which I find fairly easy, and two a week, which I find fairly hard going. And I suspect that if I gave up everything else I was interested in order to focus on learning tunes, I would still be lucky to pass three a week.
I also have to confess that the idea, spoken of by some, that you can learn tunes by "osmosis" does not work for me. I may *think* that it works until I come down to actually playing the tune, when I find that osmosis has only given me a very general shape, but the real phrases, runs, patterns, whatever don't become clear to me unless I really focus my attention on them.
So what is the norm? How fast can you / do you learn tunes?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Depends on the tune, doesn't it? Once it's in your head, there you go. If it doesn't stick in memory, it might take a while. Dumb answer, but true.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Over the last two weeks I have learned 5 tunes.
2 Highlands,2 Reels and a Jig.My Teacher seems to be focusing on Donegal music for the moment.I learned the first highland of my teacher and the rest by ear.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by dinn2
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
I am a somewhat new player, and people say that I am learning tunes very very fast. So I will offer the philosophy of how I try to do it.
I sit in a friendly session where I am allowed to "noodle" a considerable bit on the fiddle, and I can pick up tunes by listening. This is a process that takes many nights, even months for each tune, so I am always confused when someone asks "what's the latest tune you've learned?" In truth I probably have 50 tunes in various stages of learning. Some I can get the melody in my head but cannot play on the fiddle at all. Some I can only play a few bars, or a note or two after each downbeat. Some I have most of the A part and none of the B part. Some I have the entire tune except for a few confusing transitions. Some I have the whole tune but don't have my bowing coordinated enough to play at speed yet. Of the tunes I learn by ear, most I cannot start but can play when someone else has started it. I often don't remember the name. I would say I do not choose to learn these tunes but rather "they choose me." And the tune seems not to be stored in my head but in my fingertips. Often I will try to learn by watching another fiddler's fingers as he plays, but I'm not sure this gives better results than simply listening.
I've found that tunes I learn from dots (or learn first by ear and then practice a while from the dots for reinforcement) are easier for me to start in a session or remember the title to. So lately I have begun to search thesession.org for tunes which I "sort-of know." The sheet music for these tunes is incredibly easy for me to work from (as opposed to tunes I'm starting fresh with, and don't have the melody in my head or fingers at all).
In the past 8 months I have learned at least 100 tunes, but I'm not really sure exactly.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by silver bow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
To sum up I would say that I don't really learn tunes by "osmosis." But a sort of osmosis is the first step in the process, which I then take and polish off with sheet music.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by silver bow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Some tunes latch on to me and just stick immediately. Other tunes have an impression on me and I think, yes, that is my sort of tune and I leave the dots around and play every day for a month.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
It takes me decades to learn a tune
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Hi Alex. Good on ya for learning the tunes. I used to find tune learning pretty hard going. But then I found that the more I learnt, the easier it became. Now I find that if I have what you describe as the "general shape" from repeated hearings in sessions, I often have the detail as well, because a lot of the phrases in tunes are the same, or can be made to be the same without changing the essence of the tune. So for example I hear a B-part, say, that goes like this:
d2fd Adfd|defd Beec|d2fd Adfd|(3Bcd ef gefe|
d2fd Adfd|defd Beeg|fgaf gefe|defd egfe:|
I dunno if that's even a real tune off the top of my head, but if I heard it in a session, I'd first of all realise that it's much like the B-parts of a whole load of other tunes that go d2fd Adfd. So I start putting it together. I know that I can also safely go up to the top A without ruining the tune, so I can go d2fd adfd. And then this is why that's important, because *then* I can ignore that phrase and concentrate on the rest. I'd then listen hard to what's happening in between each of those phrases. I'd notice that the first time, there's a bit that doesn't really move anywhere at the end of the 2nd bar (Beec). I might just play something similar like defd egfe until I'd figured out what it was supposed to be. Then I'd notice that the next bit of interest goes up. I'd first of all work out how far it goes up. It goes up to g. That phrase (3Bcd ef g.. I've met in so many other tunes, so it'd come out automatically. Then once I've done all that, I've only got the last 2 bars to figure out instead of a whole part.
Most tunes you can learn like this, by building up common phrases in "blocks". Obviously some tunes have unique phrases in them, and those are the ones that take longer to learn. So speed in learning tunes comes from a familiarity with how the detail fits together. Unfortunately, that familiarity can only be gained through learning lots of tunes. You've just got to believe in what I've said - that it only gets easier.
What you said earlier shows clearly why you're having difficulty:
"I also have to confess that the idea, spoken of by some, that you can learn tunes by "osmosis" does not work for me. I may *think* that it works until I come down to actually playing the tune, when I find that osmosis has only given me a very general shape, but the real phrases, runs, patterns, whatever don't become clear to me unless I really focus my attention on them."
That shows that, whilst you're on the right track because you're using your ear and picking up the "general shape" of tunes by osmosis, the detail isn't coming easily because you haven't learnt enough tunes to have a repertoire of phrases. That's the crux of it really - you'll realise that learning Irish tunes is less about learning tunes than learning a repertoire of phrases like d2fd Adfd in different keys like G = G2BG DGBG etc that you can just plug into the tunes without thinking about it. What happened with me was I reached this stage where I suddenly found I could play more tunes than I thought I knew, just because the detail had filled itself in without me even making an effort to learn the tune. That's hugely satisfying, and you'll know it when it happens.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
I can play hundreds of tunes but I don't know a single one of them. There's the wonderfulness of it all.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
It depends on the tune. Some are session regulars so I have picked them up from years of hearing them, others I can hear just once and know I have to learn them. The Humours of Lissadell was one such tune which I think I found dots for on this site but also managed to get posted on tradlessons.com which was great 'cos I prefer to learn them by ear if possible. I spent the week listening to and playing it and the following week was able to play it at the session.
I seem to be picking up new tunes quite regularly at the moment. I think because the main man at the session is a fountain of knowledge where traditional music is concerned, and a great whistle/flute player to boot. He comes up with tunes I don't know all the time, and has even given me some cd's of people I had never come across before, Michael Dwyer and Jo Mckenna.
Without this kind of inspiration I don't think I would be learning new tunes quite so fast or regularly.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by flossie
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
"It takes me decades to learn a tune"
Michael - Do you learn them one at a time? You must either know very few tunes or be very, very old.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by ragaman
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
LOL! Maybe in Michael's universe, time is measured differently, sorta like doggie years vs. human years, so he's probably 500 Michael years old by now.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
...You must have been around before half the tunes were written.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by ragaman
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Michael's point's right, though. You learn lots and lots of tunes, but you only really know them after you've been playing them for a very long time.
So, I've picked up about 50 tunes so far this year, but, although I can play all of them alright, I wouldn't claim to know them for a year or so yet.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
If Michael's right, it' worrying to think some of us may only have time for one more tune- two or three at the most. Now, what to choose?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by P-K
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Dow, that building block idea is really encouraging. You somehow suspect that's the way things work from tunes like The Silver Spear, Connachtman's Rambles, Maid Behind the Bar etc. with their common elements, but being reminded that the breakthrough will come has brightened my day.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by P-K
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
"Maybe in Michael's universe, time is measured differently, sorta like doggie years vs. human years, so he's probably 500 Michael years old by now."
In that case he should avoid me, lest he be bored to a premature death.
Actually, if I understand him correctly, he's saying that, no matter how quickly you can learn a tune well enough to play it, you never stop learning it as long as you continue to play it or hear it played. Ideally, I would like this to be the case for all the tunes I play. However, my current lack of exposure to good sessions - and my preference for listening to Radio 4 and Radio Cymru over my CD collection means that many of my tunes are lying dormant for the time being. But I just went to visit the source of the Severn yesterday, 9 miles from my door - I witnessed a puddle in a bog turning into a river in the space of 1/4 mile. How can I swap that for living in some hive of musical activity?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by ragaman
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Sorry - I posted very crossly there.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by ragaman
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
When my breakthrough happened, I had learnt all these tunes, and then all of a sudden I was going to sessions in different places and I found I could play maybe 80-90% of the tunes. The new tunes I was learning were all what I'd call more "obscure" tunes, and I'd only rarely come across a session standard that had somehow slipped past the radar. I realised that a lot of the tunes I'd gone to the trouble of learning I never actually needed, and if I'd known which tunes to learn from the start, and chosen my tunes according to session playability, I could have got to that stage more quickly. I chose tunes according to whether I liked them or not, which is great because I play a bunch of tunes I really like, but that's not necessarily good if you want to make yourself sessionable-with. I'd say that until you get your first 5 or 600 tunes, the best approach is to see how many people in the session are playing each tune. If there's only one person playing solo, leave it until you have a few more tunes under your belt. If there are a lot of people playing, chances are it'll be a standard and worth knowing so you can join in next time. If you like it, learn it. If you don't, leave it, and eventually it'll filter in anyway and you might learn to like it.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Beginner though I am, I think I know what Michael means. It only takes me an evening to learn a tune, and a week or so practicing it before I can play it reliably. But I have to play around with it for months before I feel like I know it to any extent---I have to play it at different speeds, with different amounts of swing, different ornaments in different places, try playing it the way other people play it, etc., until it feels comfortable.
Which kind of speaks to Bellman's original post---how can you get to be really comfortable with any one tune if you're learning a new one every day? One or two a week seems like a good amount of time to let them sink in.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
It all depends on what I have going on elsewhere in my life. For a while, (don't kill me on this) I had to stop playing because my attention was needed at the store working on several different projects. Now that I am able to play some more, I have found that some of the tunes I had been working on, I will need to start over on.
Right now, There are about three or four I am working on. Three that I am definitely familiar with, and one that is completely new for me.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Ravyn
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Kennedy, I don't think there's much harm in skimming over learning a tune in a day or so, and then moving on. Or alternatively, giving your attention to a tune in a session, and thinking "that's nice", and then forgetting about it. The fact is, you'll probably find that you'll rediscover these tunes later when you hear them again, and you'll find you'll half know them, and it'll make you want to go away and relearn them. The second time you'll find it's much easier. That's happened to me zillions of times.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
I know what you're saying, Dow---I have about ten tunes percolating in that process right now---I know the notes, can play them without thinking too hard, but they really sound half-baked. At some point you have to bear down and polish the tunes and give them life---and don't you think that takes time, perhaps weeks or even months?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Yes, but I find that sometimes the "giving life" process can happen even without you playing it. You can come back to a tune months or years later with a fresh approach to it, and some new techniques you've picked up on the way which will help you express what you're hearing in your head that bit better.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
But yes basically I agree with you. Tunes take years to settle in, just like a new pair of shoes can fit, but not be as comfortable as your old ones. I only have a handful of tunes I *really* know inside out like that.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
"Don't I know you?"
"I'm not sure. No, hang on, yes, we met last week."
"Ah yes, you're John's pal."
tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock,
"How's it goin'?"
"Grand."
"You seen John lately?"
"Not for yonks."
tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock,
"Pint?"
"Is the Pope a Cotholic?"
tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock,
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Looking back over the tunes I know, I would say that I only REALLY learn them on an average of one every month or two. There are some I have a passing aquaintance with, but it can take some time before I know them enough to lead them off in a session (and that is melodies, I don't count the tunes I learn to accompany, that is a different kettle of fish entirely).
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Though some people just seem unable to get aquainted casually. They ask for a CV, and and if one isn't forthcoming, they trawl web sites to get one. They then commit the CV to memory, tick it off on a spread sheet and move on. Not an ideal way of making friends, in my opinion. But they say it saves time.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
MIchael, come on, this thread is not about learning from sheet music.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
yes it is
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Prove it.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Never mind, I'll save you the trouble. Only one person (silver bow) has talked about using sheet music, and only then to reinforce the process of learning by ear. Everyone else has talked about learning tunes. Not using printed aids for memory. Just acquiring melodies and making them stick.
It's just this old expired horse you're compelled to drag into our midst every so often, isn't it?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
The question is, "How fast do you want to learn tunes?"
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
And how many tunes is enough?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Dow's theory is telling. He knows thousands of tunes. But he doesn't even give them the respect of being individuals. Merely bits sewn together. He is Frankenstein
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
How many is enough? For my purposes, enough to participate in the sessions I go to and that I want to go to. So as a practical number, that will probably be about 500 tunes. I'm years off.
But the number isn't the point! Learning the tune is half the fun! I'll be learning new tunes until they pry my fiddle out of my old hands one day, I'm sure.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Yes, I've come across this purpose for learning tunes before ... to be able to participate. With the actual act of learning being a mere 50%, at best.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
LOL @ llig. Seriously though, when I first started learning Irish tunes, I thought "they all sound the same", and then I learnt a few and decided "they all sound different and individual", and now I'm back to "they all sound the same" again
I know what you're saying, llig, about learning tunes to be able to participate. You're right, really. A lot of the tunes I "know", I haven't given enough respect to if I'm absolutely honest with myself. I've learnt it just because bb or someone plays it at my session and I want to play along with them. I haven't taken the time to make the tune my own and get to know it like a friend. But at least I'm aware of this. I'm fully aware that I haven't got the tune. I don't claim to have it really. I only claim to have maybe less than 20 tunes that are really mine in the sense that you describe. That's why I'm not a brilliant player, and it's why I want to keep playing and get better.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
That's not to say that I think the playing I've done until now has been a waste of time. I've enjoyed what I've learnt, and I now have a bunch of tunes I can play in sessions, but now I can go on to actually become a musician.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Yeah, learning the tune is half the fun. Playing it is the other half. Any problem with that?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Michael would say that playing it and learning it are the same thing.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Sorry, Michael, I'm putting words in your mouth there, but you would, wouldn't you?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Something tells me this is one of those threads where Michael actually has a very good point to make but isn't expressing himself clearly enough to make it obvious to everyone. So Michael, will you please elaborate on what you're thinking instead of making all the cryptic comments?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
I think what he means is that if you really love the music, then you shouldn't be learning tunes just to be able to participate in a session. You should simply listen and pick up the ones you like for no other reason than that you like them and want to create music as an artform for pleasure. I see what he's saying, but I'd argue that in order to acquire the know-how to be able to see the big picture and do what he's saying, you first have to be able to play. And to be able to play, you have to know tunes.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
TMI on most of these replies.
It takes me about two weeks to get a tune down. After that, I continue to work on variations, ornaments, and just improving overall comfort with the tune. But I have it in my head so I can start it without a prompt and can remember all the notes within two weeks.
I try not to work on more than three tunes at any given time, and once I'm up to three, I won't try to learn more until I truly feel "at one" with the three new ones.
I'm not recommending this - it's just what I do.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Ailin
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
By "knowing" in this case, what I mean is be able to play a tune in a session and make it sound reasonable, rather than knowing in the sense of having the tune with you for years and being totally familiar with it. I argue that if you spent decades on the same 10 tunes becoming totally familiar with them, that wouldn't make you any better than a musician who learnt 500 tunes and spent less time on each. You really have to balance it and do both simultaneously: get the repertoire and give each tune time. That's why it takes years to become a good muso.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
“if you really love the music, then you shouldn't be learning tunes just to be able to participate in a session. You should simply listen and pick up the ones you like for no other reason than that you like them and want to create music as an artform for pleasure”
Okay, if that *is* what he’s saying, then here’s what I think---
1. I love the music and that’s why I’m learning it. (Prize for most obvious statement of the year)
2. I want to participate in sessions because they’re fun (more obvious yada yada)
3. Playing in sessions will actually help me become a better player. This one maybe isn’t so obvious, although it fits in with a lot of what we’ve heard Michael say in the past---needing to learn to listen, participating in the tradition, learning tunes properly from another human being, etc. In my case, it’s changed my whole approach to learning. I’m practicing my tunes all the way through now, trying to make them perfect, because I want to be able to have other people hear them. In that way, sessions are a strong incentive to learn and learn well. I don’t see what’s wrong with any of that.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
I dunno. Maybe I misunderstood Michael
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
In fact maybe this is Michael's new game. Instead of making obvious cynical comment, make cryptic comment and then sit back and watch others argue about what he may or may not have meant
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
As a beginner, 'knowing a tune' still means playing it alone at the right speed, good rhythm and all the notes in the right order (remember Eric Morecambe?). but I'm aiming higher than that in the future.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by mehere
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Maybe Michael's new baby is coming into the world and he had to dash off to the emergency room...
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Or maybe the little one is here and he's just so sleep-deprived that he keeps passing out onto the keyboard.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Batlady
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Seeing as there is only one tune anyway, I think I can safely say that none of us (who are alive) really *know* it yet.
I know parts of it. You know other parts of it.
The parts that we both know we can play together.
Isn't that the fun part?
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by FyfferGuy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
This has been bugging me and I think I finally figured out what Michael was getting at. He said,
“I've come across this purpose for learning tunes before ... to be able to participate. With the actual act of learning being a mere 50%, at best.”
And I’ve seen this before---the dislike of people who buy a bodhran and monkey around with it for a week just so they can join in a session. That I can understand. But there is no way to do that with a fiddle or a box or a flute or lots of other complicated instruments. If the only reason I were learning tunes was because I wanted to play in a session, I would have given up in frustration long ago. Sessions are a big incentive, sure, but we’re talking about some seriously delayed gratification. You’ve got to love the music and the process of learning and the small achievements along the way or it’s not worth it. I only learned ONE tune in my first five months of lessons! And I *still* can’t play that one the way I want it to sound…
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Well said, kennedy!
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Batlady
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
It takes me about ten to fifteen focused minutes to commit the notes and timing of a tune to memory. It takes me the next three or four days of mucking around before I settle on a bowing that does more or less what I want it to do. After a week or so, my rendition of the tune stagnates unless I hear it on a recording, or hear/play it at a session, or (best of all) get some feedback about it from my teacher - at which point I'll try to integrate whatever I've learned when I work on the tune some more.
As far as how long it takes before I learn the tune to my satisfaction...well, I'll get back to you when that happens.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Playing ITM is about having fun unless you're one of the 0.001% who make a living out of it. You'll find you own way. There are no rules. There really are no rules. I can play around 500 tunes. I learned a new one last month, from the dots. First new one for ages. Was playing it to perfection in 20 minutes. It is called My Darling Asleep. See? I told you there were no rules! 'Scuse...I have to do the Kesh Jig tonight...
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
I'm sorry, but, in my opinion (etc bla bla) I think that the statement, "Playing ITM is about having fun" is a particularly anodyne irrelevance.
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/06/28.html
(Hope that helps.)
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by grego
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Michael, will you please stop apologising. And look up anodyne while you're at it.
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Hi there,
How fast I learn a tune really depends on how interesting it is for me. Does it catch my imagination!, do I have a vision of how I want the tune to sound. I do think it's good practice to try and work towards a finished piece of music, arrangement, interpretation of the tune. For one, it shows you have made an attempt at understanding the music.
You can always play around with the tune at anytime, but it's a good way of getting a tune under your belt and move on with building up a repertoire.
That might also lead to writing one's own tunes and that can be another challenge, but well worth the experience.
When writing your own tunes, I would imagine that having a tune thats `finished` is very satisfying. Either way I do think it's very much a personal journey of discovery and there ain't no rush, except in the music itself.
Cheers
pkev
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by pkev
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Since I'm a newcomer to trad, as well as being the relatively advanced age of 56, I know I will never have the repertoire of my far more esteemed session.orgers.
So, here is what I do- sticking to Dow's Top 50 List (and what a resource it is!) I try to learn one tune a week, alternating between jigs and reels. I am 100% dot-bound and start that way, then play the tune constantly all week. I sing it in the car, and keep an extra PVC flute next to me as I drive (and I get the funniest looks at traffic lights)
So, when these tunes come up in our session, if I know the tune I lift the flute, and if I don't, I lift my pint.
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Greg, don't give up on yourself so fast. You've got a good 25 to 30 years at least of playing music in front of you, and that's enough time to learn and enjoy a wealth of tunes. With your music background, it won't be long before you're picking them up more readily, and by ear, too, and things will just grow easier from there.
...and all that "idle" time after retirement--sure, you'll be a tune hound before you're 70!
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by Will CPT
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
i average about two tunes a week, learned from recordings. but they are tunes "marinated" from lots of listening first. i've been slacking off for several and am catching up by learning three pairs of tunes right now, but it's really "learning" in quotes, since they are on records i've had in the car stereo for about a month and are in the brain pretty well.....i marinate them and then simmer a spell before putting them on the grill.....last pair before the slack-off was "the corner house" and "old torn petticoat" off of kitty hayes' "touch of clare." in the pipeline are "mcdonagh's" and "aggie whyte's" from pat o'connor's "humours of derrybegha, two eddie kelly jigs played by mandy murray on the "anglo international" concertina anthology, plus the first set of reels on christ droney's "return from bell harbor." they include "the master's return," can't remember the other two titles. after that, now marinating, will be "sailing into walpole's marsh" and "humours of scariff." my weak point is standard top session faves. to put in all the work of practicing, i have to be learning stuff i love, and the stuff i love isn't big where i live, so i'm weak on the session biggies...
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by ceemonster
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
'My Darling Asleep' is a lovely tune- though maybe a bit anodyne (think about it
)
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by P-K
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
That's so tiresome, P-K
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Yea, must stop taking the tablets...
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by P-K
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
It's called My Darling a Sheep in Cornwall. Much more exciting, far less anodyne. Where's the Anadin, dear?
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Anodyne: a medicine that relieves or soothes pain by lessening the sensibility of the brain or nervous system.
By extension, soothing or placating words are called anodyne
http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Anodyne
"Playing ITM is about having fun" is a particularly anodyne irrelevance. i.e. it's placation that dulls your sensibility. It's a meaningless thing to say.
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
I hardly meant it as a soothing thing to say. OK. Playing ITM should be taken seriously to the point of misery. You should be grateful that you're allowed to play it, even though we're not paying you to do so. And is that your idea of playing it? Haven't you ever listened to your elders and betters? How long haven't you been playing this anyway, if "playing" is the right word? We strongly suspect that you are in clandestine possession of dots. A smile will have you evicted from the pub and whatever you do do not banter between tunes, which is tantamount to laughing out loud during Holy Communion. Fun? Don't you come in here swearing like that! And I suppose you know thast you simply do not DO that in hornpipes. What do you mean, we can do what we like because no-one's listening anyway? Out with you, verminous object!
Phew. That's better. I've purged my anodynitudinousness at last!
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
I'm sorry, but it is "soothing" OR "placating". I meant in the "placating" sense.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/placate
Your statement, "Playing ITM is about having fun" was meant to appease or pacify. It was a conciliatory gesture. But not just this, it sought to pacify by lessening the sensibility of the brain. To reduce the argument, not to add or expand it. It was a particularly anodyne irrelevance.
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
And black is white and pigs fly and one-legged ducks swim straight.
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
goodby
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
So lon
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Very slowly.
First, I hum the tune to myself as I hear it being played in the session. If I'm lucky, during the 3 times it gets played, I'll be able to pick out the basic structure.
The next time someone plays it in a session, I'll pick out some more of the melody and structure.
This process goes on for months, maybe years, and eventually I'll get it and be able to play along with it.
If I can get a good recording of the tune, I will slow it down in Audacity and listen to that version on my iPod. I will also listen to the fast version on my iPod and on my computer.
Eventually, I can play it along with the rest in a session.
But knowing a song well enough to actually start it? Honestly, that is the hardest thing of all. The old brain does not necessarily remember the starting phrase, nor do the old fingers necessarily remember the starting notes. I simply haven't figured out how to retain that information from month to month. I salute those of you who start the tunes!
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by altofiddler
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
i can learn about a tune a day. i usually dont, because i spend most of my practice time working on my tone for flute and my arm coordination for concertina. usually i get my tone/muscles to where i want them to be, then work on tunes for a couple weeks, and then go back to technique for a couple months.
a tune a day is averaged out over a week. its just about impossible to learn a tune you've never played before in a day, even if you spend a whole day on it... it has to settle in your mind for at least two days, even if you dont play it, in order for it to pop out of your fingers.
if i work on two or three or four in a day, by the end of the week i would have at least seven worked out. i dont really practice everyday and learn new tunes less than that.
if i dropped out of school and quit my job i could probably learn 3 or 4 a day, again, averaging over a week. i think i'd get bored though.
# Posted on May 2nd 2007 by daiv
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
one a week to enter my short term memory. whether they enter my long term memory is another story.
# Posted on May 2nd 2007 by Kheelch
Re: How fast do you learn tunes?
Thanks everyone for all the helpful replies.
# Posted on May 3rd 2007 by Lingpupa