Well I am not really comfortable talking in great length about barndances or highlands. I am happy to go with Mairtin Tourish's comment from one of Dow's links that Highlands are generally played slower than Strathspeys for the purpose of dancing although I would like to stress that Strathspeys are regularly used for dancing. I believe, from Niamh Myers/Webster that the tunes are played slower if the dance is more complicated and has more steps. For step dancing therefore the tunes tend to be played faster for beginners or for simple dances. Seems the wrong way round (and gave the guitar class I was in kittens when we were told that we had to play faster after all) but there you go!
Strange, because in my rather limited experience of these tunes, the strathspeys (dance & tune) have always been substantially slower than highland flings or any other type of schottische. Ceolachan would be the one to ask about this.
Well I was just referencing from elsewhere. I couldn't tell you what speed a Highland should be played at. Strathspeys, at least in the sessions I have been to can be fairly pacey but are definately slower than your standard straight reel. The change from Strathspey to Reel leads to a rapid increase in pace.
Now I am getting interested but have to go. Can this question be about differences while playing in session? The whole dancer thing interests me but discussionwise it starts to get too interesting. I usually just ask the dancers what they want anyway.
You can always go to http://TheDance.org
Just kidding!
I haven't looked up the referenced threads, and, pardon me if this is ignorance on my part, but ...
Weren't there supposed to be 2 separate Strathspey traditions? A slow one and a ... well, faster, one? And I thought the slow one - in Scotland, at any rate - was really really slow. Hence all those amazing numbers of notes you get in some of the publications of Scott Skinner's work. Masses and masses of hemi-demi-semi-quavers and the like ... and the descriptions of same in Robert Louis Stevenson's writings from an even older time ...
Sh!t I may have gone too serious ... and yet STILL ignorant.
RSCDS ~ damned slow, dreadfully so... Yes, there are several ways with it, like playing slow reels... Sometimes dancing to them at those 'official' tempos, as imposed as they can be, is like dancing through molasses...
I am not sure if I understand this better than when I started.
Sounds like these tune types have to be described in terms of the dancers.
Dow, "We have dancers at our session every week."
The typical dancer is described by ceolachan,
"all at the same level ~ 5'10"
There is an example of a barndance. Biddy Barry's Schottische / Barndance.
I assume there is a dance which goes with this example.
Presumably a barndance is a highland which is a fling which is a schottische which is not a strathspey.
I have not seen a dance for Biddy Barry's. I have not heard anyone play the tune. Here are two question.
1) How do you play Biddy Barry's given Dow & ceolachan's dancer(s)
2) How is Biddy Barry's played differently from a hornpipe?
As far as I understand it, a barndance is a schottische but not a highland. Barndance schottisches are 32 bars, highland schottisches are 16 bars. Is that right, 'c'?
1) You play it like a barndance.
2) You play it very like the way you'd play a hornpipe, I think, but then, that depends on how you play hornpipes. Biddy Barry's has less notes in than a hornpipe would, and you'd dance a schottische to it, which is different from the hornpipe dance.
I'm still trying to get 'c' to tell me how fast he likes to play his barndances. He's been deliberately ignoring me for a couple of days now, and I'm trying not to get annoyed with him.
Thanks Dow. That helps. I have to go now so I probably will not post anything today. Do your dancer's dance the schottische (barndance)?
I am not sure about our dancers. I will have to ask them. We typically play reels & hornpipes for them.
Yeah we play reels, jigs and hornpipes for ours too. I don't know anything about the dance for barndance. 'c' taught me how to do the dance for a fling, but I wouldn't know anything about what sort of dancers dance it. 'c' would know. I wish he'd post again and clear this mess up.
There are some dance transcriptions on this site, some I've added myself, not sure if anyone else has. You can find them on my link. YES! ~ Wherever you are muse, someone will know a schottische. The 'Germans' and 'Seven Step' are basically the same dance, using the early 7-step that has become adopted as a part of Irish tradition, with some stylistic changes for ceili dancing and solo stepping... There are transcriptions for three of these ~ "The Seven Step" and "The Long German" and "The Short German"... They are easy dances to get into. Couple dances are having a bit of a revival in Ireland but never really were abandoned in the countryside ceili and house dances. For example, "Gay Gordons" and a number of pattern waltzes like "The Pride of Erin Waltz" have kept going for yonks... There are similar couple dances for all the tune forms in Eire, including marches, etc...
Thanks ceolachan. Mazurkas are great. I am not intentionally trying to separate out sessions with or without dancers. Usually when we play with dancers it is stepdancers. Seems like more variety occurs when playing for ceilidh. I would like to see our session move more in the direction of dance music. Some dancers are very experienced & that is great. With less experienced dancers it is a different experience.
Where I live it is a matter of learning for dancers as well as musicians.
Where are you Muse, in general terms if you prefer?
It can be a tricky balance to make when dancers become a part of the session. My inclination is that the focus remains on the music. That seems, in my experience, an easier thing to maintain with groups than with solo stepping. I have to admit, the latter we have often find irritating. It isn't that we, my wife and I, don't appreciate it, but so often it is precocious children and their insistant parents and more of a demand than a requested courtesy ~ and in some cases it goes on and on and on... I think I could equate it with singers who can also demand more time than is just, considering all present...
We have in the past organized sessions where dance was integral ~ social dance, not solo... It worked really well. It wasn't to everyones liking, but nothing can be. We attracted a good strong core of musicians and we probably averaged about half musicians and half dancers, though most of the musicians, if not all of them, also danced. Once in awhile, for a break, if we knew there was a stepper present, we might have a bit of step dance. In Cape Breton, at some events, "Square Dances", we'd have a slot or more that was "everybody up for some stepping" ~ that was social, no focus on one dancer, and we'd catch steps off of each other. It was great, no single person taking the lime light, just a good ol' bash of leather...great craic...
I hope you manage to weave some dance into your sessions, meaning the group variety... In some sessions I've been involved in the dance, a set or ceili or couple dance, is like an occassional break, the pub having some space for such. In 'the old days' back in Sliabh Luachra and Clare and elsewhere, the dance was more often integral, definitely with house gatherings. With Johnny O'Leary and the gang it was a mix of session and dance, but then it wasn't a big thing. We usually had just one set or two going, not a heaving mass, and the music was more relaxed and varied too, as was the craic, a lot of fun. We've been back since the surge of interest in sets into the 80's and it can be scary at times ~ crowded, pushy, impatient, rushed and lacking consideration for other dancers and the musicians. Dancers can be very demanding, though that isn't new... That kind of imbalance and disrespect is not something I'll ever be happy with.
I am in northern California's central valley. The weekly session I play is in a friend's home. When everyone shows up there is no room for dancing. I imagine this situation is the same everywhere. Ideally we could find a local space where everyone can dance &/or play. I just do not know who is interested in a regular (monthly) thing.
In the meantime I keep trying to bring variety to the session. Oh, & yes, the trend here is for singing to take precedence over dance.
just listen to a few - then you'll hear the subtle differences in rhythm. a highland is like a strathspey but smoother...in simple terms... a barndance is ..well, listen to Harry Bradley...
Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
I suspect there are some on line who want to discuss similarities & differences between these type of tunes?
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4149
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/350
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/495
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1132
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4953
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
OK Dow, enough already!
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9005
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Hey, I was the first reply on thread 4953 - looks like I knew what I was talking about too, thank God!
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Technically a link to a past discussion is not a discussion.
I don't think Hank done it this way. Use words.
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Well I am not really comfortable talking in great length about barndances or highlands. I am happy to go with Mairtin Tourish's comment from one of Dow's links that Highlands are generally played slower than Strathspeys for the purpose of dancing although I would like to stress that Strathspeys are regularly used for dancing. I believe, from Niamh Myers/Webster that the tunes are played slower if the dance is more complicated and has more steps. For step dancing therefore the tunes tend to be played faster for beginners or for simple dances. Seems the wrong way round (and gave the guitar class I was in kittens when we were told that we had to play faster after all) but there you go!
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
So barndances are the same as highlands? What are flings?
What makes a reel different from all of these?
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Strange, because in my rather limited experience of these tunes, the strathspeys (dance & tune) have always been substantially slower than highland flings or any other type of schottische. Ceolachan would be the one to ask about this.
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Well I was just referencing from elsewhere. I couldn't tell you what speed a Highland should be played at. Strathspeys, at least in the sessions I have been to can be fairly pacey but are definately slower than your standard straight reel. The change from Strathspey to Reel leads to a rapid increase in pace.
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Now I am getting interested but have to go. Can this question be about differences while playing in session? The whole dancer thing interests me but discussionwise it starts to get too interesting. I usually just ask the dancers what they want anyway.
You can always go to http://TheDance.org
Just kidding!
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Ohmygosh! That's a real link.
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
From what I gather, strathspeys are played somewhat faster in Donegal than in Scotland.
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
TheMuse, sessions and dancing do not have to be separate. We have dancers at our session every week.
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Actually I agree with you Dow. How about this: Sessions with dancers all at the same level of experience?
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
"all at the same level" ~ ? 5'10"?
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by ceolachan
"Biddy Barry's Schottische / Barndance"
Key signature: G Major
Submitted on April 26th 2007 by ceolachan.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7108
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
I haven't looked up the referenced threads, and, pardon me if this is ignorance on my part, but ...
Weren't there supposed to be 2 separate Strathspey traditions? A slow one and a ... well, faster, one? And I thought the slow one - in Scotland, at any rate - was really really slow. Hence all those amazing numbers of notes you get in some of the publications of Scott Skinner's work. Masses and masses of hemi-demi-semi-quavers and the like ... and the descriptions of same in Robert Louis Stevenson's writings from an even older time ...
Sh!t I may have gone too serious ... and yet STILL ignorant.
Damn it
(I'm interested now though
)
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
RSCDS ~ damned slow, dreadfully so... Yes, there are several ways with it, like playing slow reels... Sometimes dancing to them at those 'official' tempos, as imposed as they can be, is like dancing through molasses...
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
More ephasis than tempo, I like to think of Highlands and Barndances as 3rd beat hopstep and a Strathspey as a 3rd beat drag step.
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
I am not sure if I understand this better than when I started.
Sounds like these tune types have to be described in terms of the dancers.
Dow, "We have dancers at our session every week."
The typical dancer is described by ceolachan,
"all at the same level ~ 5'10"
There is an example of a barndance. Biddy Barry's Schottische / Barndance.
I assume there is a dance which goes with this example.
Presumably a barndance is a highland which is a fling which is a schottische which is not a strathspey.
I have not seen a dance for Biddy Barry's. I have not heard anyone play the tune. Here are two question.
1) How do you play Biddy Barry's given Dow & ceolachan's dancer(s)
2) How is Biddy Barry's played differently from a hornpipe?
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
As far as I understand it, a barndance is a schottische but not a highland. Barndance schottisches are 32 bars, highland schottisches are 16 bars. Is that right, 'c'?
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
1) You play it like a barndance.
2) You play it very like the way you'd play a hornpipe, I think, but then, that depends on how you play hornpipes. Biddy Barry's has less notes in than a hornpipe would, and you'd dance a schottische to it, which is different from the hornpipe dance.
Is that right, 'c'?
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
I'm still trying to get 'c' to tell me how fast he likes to play his barndances. He's been deliberately ignoring me for a couple of days now, and I'm trying not to get annoyed with him.
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Thanks Dow. That helps. I have to go now so I probably will not post anything today. Do your dancer's dance the schottische (barndance)?
I am not sure about our dancers. I will have to ask them. We typically play reels & hornpipes for them.
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Yeah we play reels, jigs and hornpipes for ours too. I don't know anything about the dance for barndance. 'c' taught me how to do the dance for a fling, but I wouldn't know anything about what sort of dancers dance it. 'c' would know. I wish he'd post again and clear this mess up.
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Sorry Mark, I'm having a problem with molasses... I think rum may be the solution?
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
There are some dance transcriptions on this site, some I've added myself, not sure if anyone else has. You can find them on my link. YES! ~ Wherever you are muse, someone will know a schottische. The 'Germans' and 'Seven Step' are basically the same dance, using the early 7-step that has become adopted as a part of Irish tradition, with some stylistic changes for ceili dancing and solo stepping... There are transcriptions for three of these ~ "The Seven Step" and "The Long German" and "The Short German"... They are easy dances to get into. Couple dances are having a bit of a revival in Ireland but never really were abandoned in the countryside ceili and house dances. For example, "Gay Gordons" and a number of pattern waltzes like "The Pride of Erin Waltz" have kept going for yonks... There are similar couple dances for all the tune forms in Eire, including marches, etc...
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Strathspey, Highland Fling, Barndance, Mazurka, Varsovienne ~ etc...???
Packie Byrne's Mazurka / Varsovienne
Key signature: G Major
Submitted on April 27th 2007 by ceolachan.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7112
Latest submission...
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Thanks ceolachan. Mazurkas are great. I am not intentionally trying to separate out sessions with or without dancers. Usually when we play with dancers it is stepdancers. Seems like more variety occurs when playing for ceilidh. I would like to see our session move more in the direction of dance music. Some dancers are very experienced & that is great. With less experienced dancers it is a different experience.
Where I live it is a matter of learning for dancers as well as musicians.
# Posted on April 28th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
Where are you Muse, in general terms if you prefer?
It can be a tricky balance to make when dancers become a part of the session. My inclination is that the focus remains on the music. That seems, in my experience, an easier thing to maintain with groups than with solo stepping. I have to admit, the latter we have often find irritating. It isn't that we, my wife and I, don't appreciate it, but so often it is precocious children and their insistant parents and more of a demand than a requested courtesy ~ and in some cases it goes on and on and on... I think I could equate it with singers who can also demand more time than is just, considering all present...
We have in the past organized sessions where dance was integral ~ social dance, not solo... It worked really well. It wasn't to everyones liking, but nothing can be. We attracted a good strong core of musicians and we probably averaged about half musicians and half dancers, though most of the musicians, if not all of them, also danced. Once in awhile, for a break, if we knew there was a stepper present, we might have a bit of step dance. In Cape Breton, at some events, "Square Dances", we'd have a slot or more that was "everybody up for some stepping" ~ that was social, no focus on one dancer, and we'd catch steps off of each other. It was great, no single person taking the lime light, just a good ol' bash of leather...great craic...
# Posted on April 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
I hope you manage to weave some dance into your sessions, meaning the group variety... In some sessions I've been involved in the dance, a set or ceili or couple dance, is like an occassional break, the pub having some space for such. In 'the old days' back in Sliabh Luachra and Clare and elsewhere, the dance was more often integral, definitely with house gatherings. With Johnny O'Leary and the gang it was a mix of session and dance, but then it wasn't a big thing. We usually had just one set or two going, not a heaving mass, and the music was more relaxed and varied too, as was the craic, a lot of fun. We've been back since the surge of interest in sets into the 80's and it can be scary at times ~ crowded, pushy, impatient, rushed and lacking consideration for other dancers and the musicians. Dancers can be very demanding, though that isn't new... That kind of imbalance and disrespect is not something I'll ever be happy with.
# Posted on April 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
I am in northern California's central valley. The weekly session I play is in a friend's home. When everyone shows up there is no room for dancing. I imagine this situation is the same everywhere. Ideally we could find a local space where everyone can dance &/or play. I just do not know who is interested in a regular (monthly) thing.
In the meantime I keep trying to bring variety to the session. Oh, & yes, the trend here is for singing to take precedence over dance.
# Posted on April 28th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Strathspey, Highland, Barndance?
just listen to a few - then you'll hear the subtle differences in rhythm. a highland is like a strathspey but smoother...in simple terms... a barndance is ..well, listen to Harry Bradley...
# Posted on May 6th 2007 by Lizzy