Am I the only tune player who is sick of people playing in equal temperament, i.e. the imposed tuning system used by accordions, pianos, concertinas, guitars and so on. So much of the power and beauty of this music lies in the notes that skilled musicians use which are outside the tempered scale, in other words those notes that would be considered 'out of tune' by those who don't have the knowledge. Many of the best players play certain notes like C, G, F and B slightly sharp or flatter than what is considered 'in tune'. I know from experience that this kind of playing is difficult to get used to first but once your ears get used to it the music takes on another level, you can really hear the emotions and feelings of the music far better.
It's not just the instruments I described which miss out on this tuning though, I've heard countless fiddlers who stick religiously to the tempered system and scorn older and more knowledgable players for playing 'out of tune'. The fact is they are not playing out of tune it is everyone else who is, in other words from my experience the vast majority of you are in fact playing out of tune when you tune to the tempered system which was imposed on us by Central European Classical music theorists.
I know my opinions could make it seem that I am dismissing many fine players on equal tempered instruments, but for the sake of the healthy social environment of sessions I'm happy to play in equal temperament and I enjoy a good accordionist, concertinist, guitarist and so on, but really aren't we missing something special in the music by forgetting that it's origins are in a different tuning system?
Most older and whatever fiddle players around here sound out of tune because they appear to have trouble with their intonation. They give themselves away on tonic notes more often than not. You may well be right about Just intonation sounding more natural, etc., but I remain to be convinced that on a fixed-pitch instrument such as mine, on which I might be playing in four or five different modes on the same diatonic set of reeds, that a chaotic sound with random bits of slightly-sharp and slightly-flat wouldn't ensue. Anyway, all my harmonicas are retuned by me to 12tET (and to A441 or 442 - heheh!). If I remember correctly, even the mighty JS Bach tussled unhappily with the system you want to get us back to!
The mighty J.S.Bach was involved in another type of music altogether so it is fruitless to bring him up in this debate and besides in his time there was a lot of debate about the validity of equal temperament. Many music styles from around the world don't use equal temperament from India to Africa and the Middle East. I believe as Sean O Riada did that Irish music has more in common with these musical forms than Central European classical music which imposed this system on us.
Listen to Tommy Peoples, Paddy Keenan, Seamus Ennis John Doherty, John Carty and many other players of such note and you will hear 'out of tune' notes, these notes are very much used because they are correct tuning for Irish music. You can't tell me these players don't know what they are doing, I understand that some older players do play out of tune no matter what notes they use but I'm talking about seasoned virtuoso performers, so of whom I've spoken to. They know exactly what they are doing and resent people saying they are out of tune. Tommy Peoples can play these notes perfectly in equal temperament but choses not to because it is simply wrong to do so for the type of music he is playing.
I will admit my views are quite defined and could be considered 'purist' but I am far from being a purist in many ways, I've no problem with experimentation and interesting arrangements and backing, but when the real feelings of the music suffers, then I get annoyed and this is what happens 99% of the time these days with the current trend for slick, over production and perfectly clean tone and sound. Most of the renowned older players have far more soul in them because they really don't give two hoots about getting a nice 'clean' sound and being perfectly 'in tune' according to the equal temperament system. Listen to these great players and the way they attack their instruments and bend pitches, it's so full of life and emotion it makes most of the current generation sound incredibly bland.
I agree with portnapucai. There is no real reason why Irish traditional *should* be played in equal temperament, since it has evolved independent;y from the musical tradtion which gave rise to equal temperament and, for many years, remained largely unaffected by it - except that many of the instrument that Irish trad is played on *have no choice* but to play in equal temperament. Skilled players of these instruments have devices other than variations in pitch to convey the same subtle shades of emotion in their music.
The pipes are, by necessity, tuned in *just intonation*, yet the concertina (to my knowledge, always tuned in equal temperament) sounds great together with the pipes. Perhaps it is even that slight discrepancy in pitch that makes them a special combination. And some accordion players have their instruments so wet-tuned that intonaton becomes irrelevant, anyway.
I think there a lot of reason why Irish music shouldn''t be played in equal temperament. It certainly never was in the past.
Concertinas are best not tuned to equal temperament and in a lot of cases they aren't. When they are (and some 'restorers' actually tune them to ET, usually when re-tuning a Bflat/F concertina to the more marketable C/G) ) the ugly sound of a d and fsharp played together usually gives them away quickly.
Old JS had a system devised for his harpsichords that allowed him to play sweetly in all keys without going to equal temp.
Other than that, this can be an endless discussion that will get nobody anywhere. Play it by ear and you're likely to get it right, if you're a decent musicianer that is.
I know a fiddle player who is pretty deaf from long hours shooting harmless animals in his youth. Up to this moment I would have said that he regularly plays out of tune, now I realise it must be my equal temperament that's the problem. Thank goodness we have people who care enough to lead us to the light.
Wet-tuned boxes, and tremolo harmonicas, contrary to what's been stated above, have just the same issues of intonation as single-reeded/string/whatever instruments. I think it's a very relevant topic to debate but it's worth getting informed first. There's plenty on the web. Google Just Intonation for starters. Also, it isn't black and white. There are many fine-tuning schemes intermediate between Just and Equal.
I do think it sad when fiddlers or whatever don't even know about equal vs. just intonation.
I know one who says things like "the tuner says this fiddle is in tune, but it doesn't sound in tune!" She thinks her electronic tuner doesn't work right. I've tried to tell her the E string really *should* be sharp and the G *should* be a little flat, but she forgets easily.
Accordians, pianos and the like don't bother me though. They don't sound that bad.
I think Bach was a bit of a solo artist. If everyone is playing different notes, it will not be a great session. Tune to whatever you want if you are playing solo. Otherwise, use a tuner.
I don't necessarily think fiddlers NEED to know the ins and outs equal or other temperaments.
If you listen to Canny, Fahey, Rochford, Casey, Crehan and all of those with a very deliberate intonation you know good fiddlers 'know' about these things without necessarily being able to put a name to it. They used their ears.
Even some traditional tunes modulate [GalwayHornpipe].and without equal temperament this sort of modulationsounds appalling.
It also limits in musical scope future additions to the repertoire[all traditional tunes were written by somebody].
If you had sat with some of the guys I mentioned above or John Kelly for that matter you'd know it wasn't a specific random personal thing but a deliberate choice about which they were very precise and specific. Also, if you'd get them together they were well able to play together and get a very tightly fitting sound going.
Mr Bliss, Johann may have been a bit of a solo artist, but I have it on good authority that he was a good enough organist to play occasionally with more than one finger at a time.
So what the H*ll are we simple flute players meant to do? I play and I try to twist my notes so I don't squeal in comparison to everyone else who happens to be there on any given occasion. Exact tuning is pretty much a matter of imagination on the flute anyway (imagine the note you want and then hit it...).
The freedom to decide myself what is right and what is wrong I only get when playing solo.
And sometimes, what the ..., I just like to dissonance a bit for effect (Bach's air on a G-String for example). A real pain when everyone else does it though
When a whole bunch of melody instruments are playing the same, you've just got to fit into what everyone else is playing (either by agreeing or deliberately being "out") or, it just doesn't work. And when I want to be "out" I usually play a note far more than a semitone away from the rest anyway.
I think for most of the cases I experience, the tuner helps people (some people can be a third or more of a semitone out otherwise...), but you gotta listen or...
Anyway, back to the beer for me.
(People slag off my sense of rhythm far more than my tuning these days - maybe that is progress?)
And has anyone else here got the remastered CD of James Scott Skinner playing his own stuff? Some very unusual tuning in there for the modern ears! But kind of hard to know what is just an artefact of the old recording technology and what is original.
Some of the grand old fiddlers – and some of the grand current ones – are doing more than just playing a different temperament. Sometimes they’re simply playing out of tune.
portnabpucai, I have to blow up your straw man. I'm sorry about that. The only classical instrument that uses equal temperment is the piano (and other pitched percussion), because it has to. All other (decent) classical players are aware that notes are different depending on key and function, and "fix" them accordingly. It takes some adjustment to play with a piano. That said, there's some notes in trad music that aren't really in classical music, and that's nice, and if you're in a session where people use such notes, it's fun to play along. As one of my most treasured teachers said to me, "intonation is an agreement among friends", and it seems to me you're not being very friendly.
Nope - you are right 100% hundred portna we should gather up all those little accordion players and concertina players and throw them in the woods.
It must be great sitting up there on your pedestal and watching all of us mere mortals who play in tune...wow what a life. "Hey look at me everyone - I'm playing out of tune therefore I know more about music than you and I am also way better".
Good one, reenactor. It's worth mentioning choral singers too, who have to make micro-adjustments to intonation as they listen to those around. Even a harmonica player can make some adjustments, though it's a bit tough on a tremolo. The overall "sound" in a session, or whatever, is far more dependent on the listening skills and consequent tiny adjustments of the musicians than it is on whatever "intonation" the players perceive themselves to "be in." I've seen the video, bb, and I know you "play in tune," but the rest of us had better be a little more circumspect! Probably worth mentioning that cheapie Seiko-type tuners will always assume you want equal temperament!
Well - I actually love my tuner....uhoh. Did I just say that out loud? Hey Steve - been hanging out with Joanne lately...Tunes and Lawn Bowls. We call her "Great White Garton" - heehee
I'm totally with Crackpot's (how is the Sternschanze session?) opening paragraph, but I see that portnabpucai has shown us the way forward. We are not out of tune after all, just playing Irish! I always said that it was better to be sharp than out of tune.
Damn folks, what's wrong with a little healthy disharmony and atonality anyway? While I admit, I'm a sucker for just and related tunings, the idea that someone, flute players in particular ~ might cop out with a comment like this ~ "I'm in tune, it's the rest of you yahoo's that are out of tune!" That's the scary bit, all those who think they're in tune that aren't, and instruments that aren't even in tune with themselves...
Is it not possible that the intonation of some of the great fiddle players of the I know that, as a cellist with relatively thick fingers, it isn't possible on the fiddle for me to hold my 2nd finger down on a "true" C# on the A string and expect the 3rd finger to come down on a D which isn't slightly sharp. To get the true D I've got to shift my 2nd finger back slightly. Conversely, if I play a true D the C# is likely to be slightly flat unless I shift my 3rd finger out of the way. Probably just as well I don't play the violin in an orchestra . Although, having said that, an orchestral colleague, a fine violinist of many years standing, has now found it better to play viola because his fingers are thickening with advancing years, and the spacing on the viola fingerboard is more comfortable.
And of course, we really are all out of tune. Someone once analysed the playing of some of the world's top violinists and found they played out of tune 70% of the time. And when we consider solo singers ...
Please ignore my last post. Something went wrong with copy-and-paste, and it should read as follows:
Is it not possible that the intonation of some of the great fiddle players of the past is due in part to their physique? Many of them were men used to working with their hands and so would have developed large fingers, which would have tended to make some notes flat and others sharp because of the physical difficulty of getting fingers close enough on the fingerboard. And few, if any, would have had classical training which would have drummed classically "correct" intonation into them. Perhaps you need only a few great musicians like that who play consistently (this is a very important point) in their own intonation, and they set a standard that their pupils and others follow.
I know that, as a cellist with relatively thick fingers, it isn't possible on the fiddle for me to hold my 2nd finger down on a "true" C# on the A string and expect the 3rd finger to come down on a D which isn't slightly sharp. To get the true D I've got to shift my 2nd finger back slightly. Conversely, if I play a true D the C# is likely to be slightly flat unless I shift my 3rd finger out of the way. Probably just as well I don't play the violin in an orchestra . Although, having said that, an orchestral colleague, a fine violinist of many years standing, has now found it better to play viola because his fingers are thickening with advancing years, and the spacing on the viola fingerboard is more comfortable.
And of course, we really are all out of tune. Someone once analysed the playing of some of the world's top violinists and found they played out of tune 70% of the time. And when we consider solo singers ...
People are really missing the point here. Lazyhounds response is typical of a cliassical musician in its logic that all these 'peasants' weren't properly trained and had big meaty farmers hands. It is terribly insulting to suggest this of some of the wonderful musicians who practice this form of playing.
Let me reiterate what I said earlier, the use of non-tempered notes is an ancient practice which gives a deeper emotional resonance to Irish music, particularly in Slow Airs. You can only really appreciate this if you make an effort to get used to it. This style of pitching notes most likely derives from vocal music so the logic that a classically untrained fiddler with farmers hands was just too clumsy to play in tune is ridiculous. This pitching comes from singing and the natural tuning of the Uilleann Pipes, both of which fiddlers are known to have deliberately imitated.
I'm not suggesting that people should play in this way in sessions, I know it is not conducive to the social nature of sessions. I enjoy sessions, however I do wish more soloists played in this way in concerts and on recordings as I believe it is becoming a lost art due to recent trends for creating commercial, radio friendly trad.
Firstly, to say somebody has big hands is not an insult.
Secondly, just intonation does not come from singing, it comes from maths. If you shorten a string to exactly 2/3 of its original length, it will play exactly a fifth up. 3/4 of its original length will play a fourth. 4/5, a major third, and so on. This is Pythagorean tuning, and it naturally sounds perfect. But it also means that most of us would have to re-tune our instruments if we wanted to change key. Personally, I think this would be a good thing - everything would sound ever so slightly better, and it would certainly make us better musicians. But it's annoying. So basically, someone fudged the notes a bit to make it easier. It's a teensy bit out of tune, but come on - with the two-octave range of Irish music, who can really tell?
It's not an insult to say someone has big hands but it is an insult too imply that these big hands are the reason they play certain notes out of tune, it may the case with some less skilled musicians, but it is certainly not the case with the musicians I'm talking about.
All mathematical theories are the result of analysis of certain phenomenon so you are also wrong in saying Just intonation comes from Maths. People used to sing in just intonation because that was what they heard to be naturally right.
Finally not all Irish music has a two octave range, certainly a lot of it has but there are numerous tunes which go beoynd this, particularly in the Donegal tradition where it is common for fiddlers to use the second and third position, and no matter what the range I and I'm sure others can tell if the music is played outside of equal temperament in a genuine and appropriate way. The emotions of the music come through SO much clearer this way, perhaps most of you ae too cold hearted to realise it, by the way thank you to those enlightened people who agree with me, as long as there are people like you playing this music then the old ways of playing won't be forgotten.
Pythagorean tuning sounds right because our ears are naturally inclined to prefer something that is mathematically correct, whether we know it or not.
By the way, I must be really cold-hearted and unenlightened (endarkened?), cos I play these tunes for fun, not because they evoke deep emotions.
It's fine to play the music just for fun, but there is another level to the music which you are obviously missing out on which can bring out powerful emotions both joyous and sad in those who are attuned to it. I couldn't really care less if you just play the music for casual fun or decide to investigate it at a deeper level, so good luck to you.
As for your maths theories I'll leave it to you to get a kick out of mathematical ideas, I'm not really interested in them. I'm very good at maths mind you, I just don't find it very interesting particularly when applied to musical thinking
In my post I was asking a question and putting forward a hypothesis. I did not use the word "peasant", which portnabucai seems to have brought into the discussion to imply quite incorrectly that I was making a pejorative statement about the great players of the past. In fact, I referred to those musicians as "great musicians".
Working with the hands is an entirely honourable and essential activity that humans have been doing since time began, and can be expected to result in skeletal and muscular development. It is a matter of common observation that large hands can make the playing of some instruments difficult in some respects. This shouldn't be equated with clumsiness, which is to do with a lack of speed and coordination.
Large fingers are in fact capable of moving extremely quickly and accurately, and this speed is controlled by two things - the muscles of the forearms and neural development, which comes with practice. I shouldn't be surprised if a poll of the musicians on this forum showed that a significant number have worked for a living with their hands, and perhaps still do.
Did I say they (the great fiddlers of the past) weren't properly trained? I said that few, if any, would have had classical training which would have drummed classically "correct" intonation into them. Note the inverted commas I deliberately used surrounding "correct". Those musicians were indeed properly trained to play the traditional music they played, by members of their family, friends, neighbours, schoolteachers, itinerant musicians - it's just that it wasn't "classical" training, which would have been quite inappropriate for traditional music.
Don't forget that "classical" music is a small and specialised subset of Western music. It is bound by its own internal rules which aren't necessarily applicable to other forms of music. Regrettably, there are some devotees of classical music (not so much among the players, in my experience) who are under the impression that classical music is the only music worth playing and listening to, and is inherently superior to all other forms of music. Such devotees I have met seem to be suffering from an incurable psychostenosis in this respect. It is also worth pointing out that there are afficionados of other forms of music also suffering from this complaint.
My question regarding a possible relationship between physique and a particular form of intonation does not, of course, negate portnabucai's thesis concerning non-tempered notes deriving from vocal music and the uilleann pipes; both explanations can co-exist.
One question I must ask: what is the connection, if any, between the use of non-tempered notes in slow airs and vocal music and the intonation of the much faster dance music (reels, jigs) played for set dancers by a fiddle and whistle?
Portna, maybe - just maybe some fiddle players actually *like* the style that they are playing in. Just because you say its shi*te doesnt make it so. Why oh why cant everyone just accept that some people may like to play a certain way and that doesnt mean they are sh*te* and it doesnt mean they are classical. Of all my teachers not one was ever classically trained...and not one of them told me to play out of tune either. In fact intonation was on the top of the list for all. And I really dont think that is bad and actually if you knew who I was talking about you'd probably include at least one of them in your list of fiddle players who bend the notes. The way you go on seems like you actually believe you are some master of the tradition yourself.
Hey portnabpucai, your profile says you play guitar. How can you stand to listen? It's not even *possible* to tune your instrument the way you want it. Your bouzouki's top and bottom strings are wrong too, not to mention the frets. I feel for you - it must be a terrible experience. As for the fiddle, I know you don't use your open strings for any key but D, so you're all right. Might be awkward to play something like "foxhunter's reel" though. Now, the pipes... you must be very careful with pitch in B minor, C, E minor... although I know we don't use those keys very often. Not to mention having to reset do without drones and regulators during key changes... must involve remarkable skill and foresight. Although you must forgive me - what I've learned about how you'd have to change pitch to maintain your system, and my conclusion from that knowledge must make me cold-hearted.
"It's fine to play the music just for fun, but there is another level to the music which you are obviously missing out on which can bring out powerful emotions both joyous and sad in those who are attuned to it."
Oh My God! Another one who can look at someone playing and actually know that that person has soul...or has no soul! I'm telling you -I'm starting to feel really left out of this trad club where the members can read people minds.
I can read your mind right now, Beebs, and all I can say is, it's a good job you don't type what you're actually thinking, otherwise you'd have been kicked off the session yonks ago
Isn't it cold hearted to label someone as cold hearted, someone you've never met, someone who loves the same music you do, though maybe from a different (i.e., their own personal) perspective?
(There's a Hank Williams song in there somewhere....)
Beebs, I thought you had left us permanently. Glad to see you're sticking around. Maybe you might learn to read people's minds after a while.
I think the title of this thread was the main problem, otherwise we could have had a discussion about artists/recordings that show nice examples of some bent notes or 'Paddy's Temperament" as I've heard it called. I love Kevin Crehan's album 'Bhabog Sa Bhadog' - for example.
How could I possibly ever leave this site Donough - with all the thoughtful posts? I dont think a different title wouldve saved this post. Not after the assumtions that if you dont like the style then you are cold hearted blah..blah. Its enough to make you want to tune to 440 goddamn it!
Excuse me if I'm being naïve but isn't it possible to convey your meaning and your emotion through more than just your intonation?
Also, doesn't this seem like a pretty back-handed (and fairly all-encompassing) swipe at accordion, concertina, harp, guitar, mandolin, 'zouk, banjo ie. any of the 'newcomer' instruments to the tradition.
Usually it's the classical players who are dismissive because Irish trad is to too far towards the "rustic" end of the scale (as opposed to the "perfect" end of the scale). Now I'm being bombarded from the other side because my music is too "perfect". Can't I just play it?
Don't be so naive kjay. Tunes aren't for playing and enjoying.
They are to be angsted over, disected, theorised, abstracted, value-judged, purified and, above all, must be played on only just-tempered bone whistles hand crafted by ancient west-coast irishmen and played only by farmers from west clare. or their american descendants.
With respect, bb, I think you've missed the point. It's not about 'bending' the notes at all - we're talking about a completely different system of intonation. And it isn't a new discussion:
"It has been claimed that the Irish scales differ from modern scales not only in the distribution of the tones and semitones, but also in the very important matter of intonation; that is to say that the intervals between the notes in the Irish scales and in the modern scales are not identical; so that for example the Irish scale of 'do' does not coincide with the natural scale of 'do', nor with the tempered scale as we have it on the piano."
"It is a fact also that the old melodies lose much of their savour when rendered with any but the traditional intonation."
"It is to be regretted, but it is inevitable that we should hear so much about traditional Irish music from those who are not competent to discuss it. On the one hand we have musicians who deny the element of traditional intonation. As they refuse to study the matter in the only way in which it can be studied, i.e. by listening to the best traditional singers and violin-players, their opinion can have no weight. On the other hand we have the extremists who regard every native speaker of Irish as a true exponent of traditional singing. Sometimes he is only an exponent of singing out of tune."
All of the above quotes are taken from the Foreword to Vol 1 of the Roche Collection, written by Cathaoir O'Braonain, 1909.
The music has always been angsted over ... at least by people who care ...
With respect benhall.1 - I am not missing the point. I could go into a long and involved discussion on this, but really I just cant be bothered getting annoyed again. This is the new quiet me. I admit I fell off the wagon today. I shoudlve just kept my mouth shut.
Why I said that was that you referred to 'bending' notes. And that is a million miles away from the heart of this, which is that the old way used a completely different system of intonation. They used to 'bend' notes as well, but their basis was soemthing quite different - it wasn't that they were starting from the 'normal' ie classical scale, in whatever temperament, and then 'bending' notes away from it.
If that's what you meant, it was the opposite of what you actually said.
Oh, and, in case anyone accuses me of it, I'm not trying to make out that I'm 'pure' in this. I can't do the old way consistently myself. I can do it on certain tunes that I learnt from the old boys, and I love hearing it, as you still sometimes do.
Ah well - sorry about that benhall. I was actually refering to the bending of pitches - not notes. Been a busy day I'm afraid. But I guess it is no big secret that the one thing that really annoys me is the 'Everyone is wrong and noone plays trad right anymore' speech. And I was just reacting. Which I shoudlnt be because it seems much wiser not to.
Someone as mouthy as Mr. Portnabucai,
I would need to see and hear.
probably a bunch of BS.
Put up or shut the f---up
I'm tired of being nice.,
I've been playing the 12 note chromatic scale
for forty years in and out of tune. In various types of music. from Cajun-Blues to Rock / Pop.etc.
ITM isnt any different. Either it sounds Good
or it Sucks.
The point is Mr Uke, it is actually different. Not by miles but it is different intonation wise from your cajun rock/pop scales. If you can't hear it, you won't hear when it it's right so put up and preferably just shut up if you're only going to let fly without addressing anything that was said.
^^F ~ Don't you just miss the old moveable frets of the good ol' days? Maybe there's a future for the slide whistle in ITM after all? Hey, all you ex-brass players, now is the time to bring your trombone out of hibernation, flush the stink out of the pipes, and haul it along to your local session...
I haven't read all the replys posted above, so I might have missed an answer to my question..
Is there one (or more) "irish traditionnal" that could be clearly defined by using a scale of "cents" in the same way we do it for Equal, Pythagorician, Meantone, Valloti and many other temperaments used for early music?
Maybe guitarists should use gut fret as on lutes...
That's a bloody good question. I'm not sure whether anyone has studied it that formally, but it would be a good idea, wouldn't it?
I also know (from the Roche source I quoted earlier) that "Dr Henebry and others" were doing something like that at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, but I don't know whether they ever concluded their work ... assuming that's possible ...
I've played with the same bunch of guitar players for 30 years. BY DEFINITION, they are never out of tune. It is always the accordion, the piano, the keyboard, the whistle......NEVER them.
I tease them and ask them if their instruments came 'factory tuned' and if they require periodic maintenance...........
I've seen someone at a session who regularly offers to tune other fiddlers' instruments with his electronic tuner before they start playing - an offer that is usually taken up. Those other fiddlers tend to be the less experienced, but they're certainly not beginners.
Think about the "logic" of that. Tuning someone's fiddle with an electronic tuner will get the open strings into some sort of tuning (probably equal temperament) by looking at flashing lights, numbers on an led, or an analogue needle, etc, as it drifts past a scale, but it won't get the fingers in tune.
In no way can tuned open strings guarantee that the player who receives the tuned fiddle back from the tuner is going to play the fiddle in tune without listening carefully to the results of finger placement on the strings. Any fiddle player who relies on using an electronic tuner for tuning the open strings is, in my view, always going to have problems with intonation in their playing until they learn to tune the strings by ear alone - under all acoustic conditions in a session.
I can see the point of using an electronic tuner to tune a fretted instrument, because their tuning is often complex, but the other day I saw someone tune his guitar by taking an "A" from another instrument and then do the remainder by ear - except that he "listened" to the guitar by gently biting the shoulder of the guitar with his teeth.
"... the concertina (to my knowledge, always tuned in equal temperament)..."
"Concertinas are best not tuned to equal temperament and in a lot of cases they aren't."
Kilfarboy - I stand corrected.
"To my cloth ears, they all seem to play with their own individual intonation. The thing is that they do it consistently."
Yes, What?!!?. They play what they hear in their mind's ear, which is *their* music. The difference between them and someone who plays out of tune is that the notes they play are the notes they intend to play, not their closest approximations.
BTW, I've seen your ears, What?!!?, and they looked real to me. Or were you talking about your *clothiers*?
I would like to apologize for my remarks the
other night. To much fruit of the vine.
Also sorry if I offended anyone else.
I'm not really mean spirited-
Just to much to soon. I should know better.
Funny the tricks memory plays, though isn't it? I didn't remember your comments as being mean-spirited at all. I just remembered them as being stupid. (I've looked at them again now, and I see that in fact they *were* a bit mean.)
Anyway, I can't see why anyone other than pornabpucai should be offended by what you said. I would suggest you e-mail him and apologise direct ... but I bet you've done that already ...
Yeah I know!
I got an email from Jeremy telling
me not to start a new discussion - that if I wanted to apologize I should do it by email or on the same thread. I guess he moved it over. I didn't know the protocol. The reason I did a new thread - I was afraid it would get over looked. 'cause this one is so long. Well I guess you tune as you go.
Just to say that ukestrum didn't offend me at all, it was nice of him to apologise but as I said to him in an email it takes a lot to offend me, not even bb's ranting bothers me, in fact I fully expected it
Anyway if nothing else comes out of this I hope this discussion has inspired some of you to investigate the kind of music I'm talking about, once you learn to appreciate this kind of music you won't look at trad in the same way.
Now let me conjure up another provocative discussion topic........
You are all out of tune!!
You are all out of tune!!
Am I the only tune player who is sick of people playing in equal temperament, i.e. the imposed tuning system used by accordions, pianos, concertinas, guitars and so on. So much of the power and beauty of this music lies in the notes that skilled musicians use which are outside the tempered scale, in other words those notes that would be considered 'out of tune' by those who don't have the knowledge. Many of the best players play certain notes like C, G, F and B slightly sharp or flatter than what is considered 'in tune'. I know from experience that this kind of playing is difficult to get used to first but once your ears get used to it the music takes on another level, you can really hear the emotions and feelings of the music far better.
It's not just the instruments I described which miss out on this tuning though, I've heard countless fiddlers who stick religiously to the tempered system and scorn older and more knowledgable players for playing 'out of tune'. The fact is they are not playing out of tune it is everyone else who is, in other words from my experience the vast majority of you are in fact playing out of tune when you tune to the tempered system which was imposed on us by Central European Classical music theorists.
I know my opinions could make it seem that I am dismissing many fine players on equal tempered instruments, but for the sake of the healthy social environment of sessions I'm happy to play in equal temperament and I enjoy a good accordionist, concertinist, guitarist and so on, but really aren't we missing something special in the music by forgetting that it's origins are in a different tuning system?
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by portnabpucai
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Wow, you're so pure I can see right through you.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Dow
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Most older and whatever fiddle players around here sound out of tune because they appear to have trouble with their intonation. They give themselves away on tonic notes more often than not. You may well be right about Just intonation sounding more natural, etc., but I remain to be convinced that on a fixed-pitch instrument such as mine, on which I might be playing in four or five different modes on the same diatonic set of reeds, that a chaotic sound with random bits of slightly-sharp and slightly-flat wouldn't ensue. Anyway, all my harmonicas are retuned by me to 12tET (and to A441 or 442 - heheh!). If I remember correctly, even the mighty JS Bach tussled unhappily with the system you want to get us back to!
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: You are all out of tune!!
The mighty J.S.Bach was involved in another type of music altogether so it is fruitless to bring him up in this debate and besides in his time there was a lot of debate about the validity of equal temperament. Many music styles from around the world don't use equal temperament from India to Africa and the Middle East. I believe as Sean O Riada did that Irish music has more in common with these musical forms than Central European classical music which imposed this system on us.
Listen to Tommy Peoples, Paddy Keenan, Seamus Ennis John Doherty, John Carty and many other players of such note and you will hear 'out of tune' notes, these notes are very much used because they are correct tuning for Irish music. You can't tell me these players don't know what they are doing, I understand that some older players do play out of tune no matter what notes they use but I'm talking about seasoned virtuoso performers, so of whom I've spoken to. They know exactly what they are doing and resent people saying they are out of tune. Tommy Peoples can play these notes perfectly in equal temperament but choses not to because it is simply wrong to do so for the type of music he is playing.
I will admit my views are quite defined and could be considered 'purist' but I am far from being a purist in many ways, I've no problem with experimentation and interesting arrangements and backing, but when the real feelings of the music suffers, then I get annoyed and this is what happens 99% of the time these days with the current trend for slick, over production and perfectly clean tone and sound. Most of the renowned older players have far more soul in them because they really don't give two hoots about getting a nice 'clean' sound and being perfectly 'in tune' according to the equal temperament system. Listen to these great players and the way they attack their instruments and bend pitches, it's so full of life and emotion it makes most of the current generation sound incredibly bland.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by portnabpucai
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I agree with portnapucai. There is no real reason why Irish traditional *should* be played in equal temperament, since it has evolved independent;y from the musical tradtion which gave rise to equal temperament and, for many years, remained largely unaffected by it - except that many of the instrument that Irish trad is played on *have no choice* but to play in equal temperament. Skilled players of these instruments have devices other than variations in pitch to convey the same subtle shades of emotion in their music.
The pipes are, by necessity, tuned in *just intonation*, yet the concertina (to my knowledge, always tuned in equal temperament) sounds great together with the pipes. Perhaps it is even that slight discrepancy in pitch that makes them a special combination. And some accordion players have their instruments so wet-tuned that intonaton becomes irrelevant, anyway.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by ragaman
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Yes ~ sigh, the tyranny of keyboards, QWERTY too...
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by ceolachan
I love those in between notes...
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I think there a lot of reason why Irish music shouldn''t be played in equal temperament. It certainly never was in the past.
Concertinas are best not tuned to equal temperament and in a lot of cases they aren't. When they are (and some 'restorers' actually tune them to ET, usually when re-tuning a Bflat/F concertina to the more marketable C/G) ) the ugly sound of a d and fsharp played together usually gives them away quickly.
Old JS had a system devised for his harpsichords that allowed him to play sweetly in all keys without going to equal temp.
Other than that, this can be an endless discussion that will get nobody anywhere. Play it by ear and you're likely to get it right, if you're a decent musicianer that is.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I know a fiddle player who is pretty deaf from long hours shooting harmless animals in his youth. Up to this moment I would have said that he regularly plays out of tune, now I realise it must be my equal temperament that's the problem. Thank goodness we have people who care enough to lead us to the light.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Backer
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Wet-tuned boxes, and tremolo harmonicas, contrary to what's been stated above, have just the same issues of intonation as single-reeded/string/whatever instruments. I think it's a very relevant topic to debate but it's worth getting informed first. There's plenty on the web. Google Just Intonation for starters. Also, it isn't black and white. There are many fine-tuning schemes intermediate between Just and Equal.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I do think it sad when fiddlers or whatever don't even know about equal vs. just intonation.
I know one who says things like "the tuner says this fiddle is in tune, but it doesn't sound in tune!" She thinks her electronic tuner doesn't work right. I've tried to tell her the E string really *should* be sharp and the G *should* be a little flat, but she forgets easily.
Accordians, pianos and the like don't bother me though. They don't sound that bad.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by seisflutes
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I think Bach was a bit of a solo artist. If everyone is playing different notes, it will not be a great session. Tune to whatever you want if you are playing solo. Otherwise, use a tuner.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I don't necessarily think fiddlers NEED to know the ins and outs equal or other temperaments.
If you listen to Canny, Fahey, Rochford, Casey, Crehan and all of those with a very deliberate intonation you know good fiddlers 'know' about these things without necessarily being able to put a name to it. They used their ears.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Am I the only tune player who is sick of people playing in equal temperament,
Yes probably. Most of us just want to have fun.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by de Selby
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Even some traditional tunes modulate [GalwayHornpipe].and without equal temperament this sort of modulationsounds appalling.
It also limits in musical scope future additions to the repertoire[all traditional tunes were written by somebody].
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Rufus Jameson
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Dow, I am laughing out loud right now! That hasn't happened while staring at the monkey-poo colored forum for a while.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Farr
Re: You are all out of tune!!
If you had sat with some of the guys I mentioned above or John Kelly for that matter you'd know it wasn't a specific random personal thing but a deliberate choice about which they were very precise and specific. Also, if you'd get them together they were well able to play together and get a very tightly fitting sound going.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Mr Bliss, Johann may have been a bit of a solo artist, but I have it on good authority that he was a good enough organist to play occasionally with more than one finger at a time.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: You are all out of tune!!
So what the H*ll are we simple flute players meant to do? I play and I try to twist my notes so I don't squeal in comparison to everyone else who happens to be there on any given occasion. Exact tuning is pretty much a matter of imagination on the flute anyway (imagine the note you want and then hit it...).
The freedom to decide myself what is right and what is wrong I only get when playing solo.
And sometimes, what the ..., I just like to dissonance a bit for effect (Bach's air on a G-String for example). A real pain when everyone else does it though
When a whole bunch of melody instruments are playing the same, you've just got to fit into what everyone else is playing (either by agreeing or deliberately being "out") or, it just doesn't work. And when I want to be "out" I usually play a note far more than a semitone away from the rest anyway.
I think for most of the cases I experience, the tuner helps people (some people can be a third or more of a semitone out otherwise...), but you gotta listen or...
Anyway, back to the beer for me.
(People slag off my sense of rhythm far more than my tuning these days - maybe that is progress?)
Chris
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Crackpot
Re: You are all out of tune!!
And has anyone else here got the remastered CD of James Scott Skinner playing his own stuff? Some very unusual tuning in there for the modern ears! But kind of hard to know what is just an artefact of the old recording technology and what is original.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Crackpot
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I know just what kilfarboy means. JK hit me about the head with his bow for not 'sweetening' my c's enough.
I consider it an honour. (I suppose nowadays people would complain)
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Some of the grand old fiddlers – and some of the grand current ones – are doing more than just playing a different temperament. Sometimes they’re simply playing out of tune.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Ciao bella
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Howzabout this: "Temperament" by Stuart Isacoff--a nifty historical read.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: You are all out of tune!!
portnabpucai, I have to blow up your straw man. I'm sorry about that. The only classical instrument that uses equal temperment is the piano (and other pitched percussion), because it has to. All other (decent) classical players are aware that notes are different depending on key and function, and "fix" them accordingly. It takes some adjustment to play with a piano. That said, there's some notes in trad music that aren't really in classical music, and that's nice, and if you're in a session where people use such notes, it's fun to play along. As one of my most treasured teachers said to me, "intonation is an agreement among friends", and it seems to me you're not being very friendly.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by reenactor
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Nope - you are right 100% hundred portna we should gather up all those little accordion players and concertina players and throw them in the woods.
It must be great sitting up there on your pedestal and watching all of us mere mortals who play in tune...wow what a life. "Hey look at me everyone - I'm playing out of tune therefore I know more about music than you and I am also way better".
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I meant 100% right....or did I mean 100%100% right? Who knows?
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Good one, reenactor. It's worth mentioning choral singers too, who have to make micro-adjustments to intonation as they listen to those around. Even a harmonica player can make some adjustments, though it's a bit tough on a tremolo. The overall "sound" in a session, or whatever, is far more dependent on the listening skills and consequent tiny adjustments of the musicians than it is on whatever "intonation" the players perceive themselves to "be in." I've seen the video, bb, and I know you "play in tune," but the rest of us had better be a little more circumspect! Probably worth mentioning that cheapie Seiko-type tuners will always assume you want equal temperament!
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Well - I actually love my tuner....uhoh. Did I just say that out loud? Hey Steve - been hanging out with Joanne lately...Tunes and Lawn Bowls. We call her "Great White Garton" - heehee
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Oh Steve - sorry I got you confused with the other Steve on this site - youve changed your name back from Glee Club.....Sorry about that!
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I'm totally with Crackpot's (how is the Sternschanze session?) opening paragraph, but I see that portnabpucai has shown us the way forward. We are not out of tune after all, just playing Irish! I always said that it was better to be sharp than out of tune.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Any further mention of Glee Club and I shall forthwith assume the mantle of Commandant again - with a big whip this time! Down, boys...
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Damn folks, what's wrong with a little healthy disharmony and atonality anyway? While I admit, I'm a sucker for just and related tunings, the idea that someone, flute players in particular
~ might cop out with a comment like this ~ "I'm in tune, it's the rest of you yahoo's that are out of tune!" That's the scary bit, all those who think they're in tune that aren't, and instruments that aren't even in tune with themselves... 
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Is it not possible that the intonation of some of the great fiddle players of the I know that, as a cellist with relatively thick fingers, it isn't possible on the fiddle for me to hold my 2nd finger down on a "true" C# on the A string and expect the 3rd finger to come down on a D which isn't slightly sharp. To get the true D I've got to shift my 2nd finger back slightly. Conversely, if I play a true D the C# is likely to be slightly flat unless I shift my 3rd finger out of the way. Probably just as well I don't play the violin in an orchestra
. Although, having said that, an orchestral colleague, a fine violinist of many years standing, has now found it better to play viola because his fingers are thickening with advancing years, and the spacing on the viola fingerboard is more comfortable.
And of course, we really are all out of tune. Someone once analysed the playing of some of the world's top violinists and found they played out of tune 70% of the time. And when we consider solo singers ...
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Please ignore my last post. Something went wrong with copy-and-paste, and it should read as follows:
Is it not possible that the intonation of some of the great fiddle players of the past is due in part to their physique? Many of them were men used to working with their hands and so would have developed large fingers, which would have tended to make some notes flat and others sharp because of the physical difficulty of getting fingers close enough on the fingerboard. And few, if any, would have had classical training which would have drummed classically "correct" intonation into them. Perhaps you need only a few great musicians like that who play consistently (this is a very important point) in their own intonation, and they set a standard that their pupils and others follow.
. Although, having said that, an orchestral colleague, a fine violinist of many years standing, has now found it better to play viola because his fingers are thickening with advancing years, and the spacing on the viola fingerboard is more comfortable.
I know that, as a cellist with relatively thick fingers, it isn't possible on the fiddle for me to hold my 2nd finger down on a "true" C# on the A string and expect the 3rd finger to come down on a D which isn't slightly sharp. To get the true D I've got to shift my 2nd finger back slightly. Conversely, if I play a true D the C# is likely to be slightly flat unless I shift my 3rd finger out of the way. Probably just as well I don't play the violin in an orchestra
And of course, we really are all out of tune. Someone once analysed the playing of some of the world's top violinists and found they played out of tune 70% of the time. And when we consider solo singers ...
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: You are all out of tune!!
You see, this is why the trombone is such a great instrument for trad - you choose your tuning.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: You are all out of tune!!
People are really missing the point here. Lazyhounds response is typical of a cliassical musician in its logic that all these 'peasants' weren't properly trained and had big meaty farmers hands. It is terribly insulting to suggest this of some of the wonderful musicians who practice this form of playing.
Let me reiterate what I said earlier, the use of non-tempered notes is an ancient practice which gives a deeper emotional resonance to Irish music, particularly in Slow Airs. You can only really appreciate this if you make an effort to get used to it. This style of pitching notes most likely derives from vocal music so the logic that a classically untrained fiddler with farmers hands was just too clumsy to play in tune is ridiculous. This pitching comes from singing and the natural tuning of the Uilleann Pipes, both of which fiddlers are known to have deliberately imitated.
I'm not suggesting that people should play in this way in sessions, I know it is not conducive to the social nature of sessions. I enjoy sessions, however I do wish more soloists played in this way in concerts and on recordings as I believe it is becoming a lost art due to recent trends for creating commercial, radio friendly trad.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by portnabpucai
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Firstly, to say somebody has big hands is not an insult.
Secondly, just intonation does not come from singing, it comes from maths. If you shorten a string to exactly 2/3 of its original length, it will play exactly a fifth up. 3/4 of its original length will play a fourth. 4/5, a major third, and so on. This is Pythagorean tuning, and it naturally sounds perfect. But it also means that most of us would have to re-tune our instruments if we wanted to change key. Personally, I think this would be a good thing - everything would sound ever so slightly better, and it would certainly make us better musicians. But it's annoying. So basically, someone fudged the notes a bit to make it easier. It's a teensy bit out of tune, but come on - with the two-octave range of Irish music, who can really tell?
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: You are all out of tune!!
It's not an insult to say someone has big hands but it is an insult too imply that these big hands are the reason they play certain notes out of tune, it may the case with some less skilled musicians, but it is certainly not the case with the musicians I'm talking about.
All mathematical theories are the result of analysis of certain phenomenon so you are also wrong in saying Just intonation comes from Maths. People used to sing in just intonation because that was what they heard to be naturally right.
Finally not all Irish music has a two octave range, certainly a lot of it has but there are numerous tunes which go beoynd this, particularly in the Donegal tradition where it is common for fiddlers to use the second and third position, and no matter what the range I and I'm sure others can tell if the music is played outside of equal temperament in a genuine and appropriate way. The emotions of the music come through SO much clearer this way, perhaps most of you ae too cold hearted to realise it, by the way thank you to those enlightened people who agree with me, as long as there are people like you playing this music then the old ways of playing won't be forgotten.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by portnabpucai
Re: You are all out of tune!!
That's right. They don't just disagree with you, they are "cold hearted."
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Pythagorean tuning sounds right because our ears are naturally inclined to prefer something that is mathematically correct, whether we know it or not.
By the way, I must be really cold-hearted and unenlightened (endarkened?), cos I play these tunes for fun, not because they evoke deep emotions.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: You are all out of tune!!
It's fine to play the music just for fun, but there is another level to the music which you are obviously missing out on which can bring out powerful emotions both joyous and sad in those who are attuned to it. I couldn't really care less if you just play the music for casual fun or decide to investigate it at a deeper level, so good luck to you.
As for your maths theories I'll leave it to you to get a kick out of mathematical ideas, I'm not really interested in them. I'm very good at maths mind you, I just don't find it very interesting particularly when applied to musical thinking
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by portnabpucai
Re: You are all out of tune!!
In my post I was asking a question and putting forward a hypothesis. I did not use the word "peasant", which portnabucai seems to have brought into the discussion to imply quite incorrectly that I was making a pejorative statement about the great players of the past. In fact, I referred to those musicians as "great musicians".
Working with the hands is an entirely honourable and essential activity that humans have been doing since time began, and can be expected to result in skeletal and muscular development. It is a matter of common observation that large hands can make the playing of some instruments difficult in some respects. This shouldn't be equated with clumsiness, which is to do with a lack of speed and coordination.
Large fingers are in fact capable of moving extremely quickly and accurately, and this speed is controlled by two things - the muscles of the forearms and neural development, which comes with practice. I shouldn't be surprised if a poll of the musicians on this forum showed that a significant number have worked for a living with their hands, and perhaps still do.
Did I say they (the great fiddlers of the past) weren't properly trained? I said that few, if any, would have had classical training which would have drummed classically "correct" intonation into them. Note the inverted commas I deliberately used surrounding "correct". Those musicians were indeed properly trained to play the traditional music they played, by members of their family, friends, neighbours, schoolteachers, itinerant musicians - it's just that it wasn't "classical" training, which would have been quite inappropriate for traditional music.
Don't forget that "classical" music is a small and specialised subset of Western music. It is bound by its own internal rules which aren't necessarily applicable to other forms of music. Regrettably, there are some devotees of classical music (not so much among the players, in my experience) who are under the impression that classical music is the only music worth playing and listening to, and is inherently superior to all other forms of music. Such devotees I have met seem to be suffering from an incurable psychostenosis in this respect. It is also worth pointing out that there are afficionados of other forms of music also suffering from this complaint.
My question regarding a possible relationship between physique and a particular form of intonation does not, of course, negate portnabucai's thesis concerning non-tempered notes deriving from vocal music and the uilleann pipes; both explanations can co-exist.
One question I must ask: what is the connection, if any, between the use of non-tempered notes in slow airs and vocal music and the intonation of the much faster dance music (reels, jigs) played for set dancers by a fiddle and whistle?
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Portna, maybe - just maybe some fiddle players actually *like* the style that they are playing in. Just because you say its shi*te doesnt make it so. Why oh why cant everyone just accept that some people may like to play a certain way and that doesnt mean they are sh*te* and it doesnt mean they are classical. Of all my teachers not one was ever classically trained...and not one of them told me to play out of tune either. In fact intonation was on the top of the list for all. And I really dont think that is bad and actually if you knew who I was talking about you'd probably include at least one of them in your list of fiddle players who bend the notes. The way you go on seems like you actually believe you are some master of the tradition yourself.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Hey portnabpucai, your profile says you play guitar. How can you stand to listen? It's not even *possible* to tune your instrument the way you want it. Your bouzouki's top and bottom strings are wrong too, not to mention the frets. I feel for you - it must be a terrible experience. As for the fiddle, I know you don't use your open strings for any key but D, so you're all right. Might be awkward to play something like "foxhunter's reel" though. Now, the pipes... you must be very careful with pitch in B minor, C, E minor... although I know we don't use those keys very often. Not to mention having to reset do without drones and regulators during key changes... must involve remarkable skill and foresight. Although you must forgive me - what I've learned about how you'd have to change pitch to maintain your system, and my conclusion from that knowledge must make me cold-hearted.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by reenactor
Re: You are all out of tune!!
"It's fine to play the music just for fun, but there is another level to the music which you are obviously missing out on which can bring out powerful emotions both joyous and sad in those who are attuned to it."
Oh My God! Another one who can look at someone playing and actually know that that person has soul...or has no soul! I'm telling you -I'm starting to feel really left out of this trad club where the members can read people minds.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I can read your mind right now, Beebs, and all I can say is, it's a good job you don't type what you're actually thinking, otherwise you'd have been kicked off the session yonks ago
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Dow
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Isn't it cold hearted to label someone as cold hearted, someone you've never met, someone who loves the same music you do, though maybe from a different (i.e., their own personal) perspective?
(There's a Hank Williams song in there somewhere....)
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: You are all out of tune!!
nyah nyah nyah....too true
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Good to finally see some nyaah on this site....
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: You are all out of tune!!
n
y
a
h
What kind of tuning is this.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Saint
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Bad-tempered tuning, saint.
(Someone had to say it.)
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Tish
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Beauty is in the ear of the listener.
http://yellowbellmusic.com/yb_legend.php
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by ukestrum
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Beebs, I thought you had left us permanently. Glad to see you're sticking around. Maybe you might learn to read people's minds after a while.
I think the title of this thread was the main problem, otherwise we could have had a discussion about artists/recordings that show nice examples of some bent notes or 'Paddy's Temperament" as I've heard it called. I love Kevin Crehan's album 'Bhabog Sa Bhadog' - for example.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Donough
Re: You are all out of tune!!
The Kevin Crehan album is a very good example.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Tish
Re: You are all out of tune!!
How could I possibly ever leave this site Donough - with all the thoughtful posts? I dont think a different title wouldve saved this post. Not after the assumtions that if you dont like the style then you are cold hearted blah..blah. Its enough to make you want to tune to 440 goddamn it!
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Excuse me if I'm being naïve but isn't it possible to convey your meaning and your emotion through more than just your intonation?
Also, doesn't this seem like a pretty back-handed (and fairly all-encompassing) swipe at accordion, concertina, harp, guitar, mandolin, 'zouk, banjo ie. any of the 'newcomer' instruments to the tradition.
Usually it's the classical players who are dismissive because Irish trad is to too far towards the "rustic" end of the scale (as opposed to the "perfect" end of the scale). Now I'm being bombarded from the other side because my music is too "perfect". Can't I just play it?
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Don't be so naive kjay. Tunes aren't for playing and enjoying.
They are to be angsted over, disected, theorised, abstracted, value-judged, purified and, above all, must be played on only just-tempered bone whistles hand crafted by ancient west-coast irishmen and played only by farmers from west clare. or their american descendants.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by SirNose
Re: You are all out of tune!!
With respect, bb, I think you've missed the point. It's not about 'bending' the notes at all - we're talking about a completely different system of intonation. And it isn't a new discussion:
"It has been claimed that the Irish scales differ from modern scales not only in the distribution of the tones and semitones, but also in the very important matter of intonation; that is to say that the intervals between the notes in the Irish scales and in the modern scales are not identical; so that for example the Irish scale of 'do' does not coincide with the natural scale of 'do', nor with the tempered scale as we have it on the piano."
"It is a fact also that the old melodies lose much of their savour when rendered with any but the traditional intonation."
"It is to be regretted, but it is inevitable that we should hear so much about traditional Irish music from those who are not competent to discuss it. On the one hand we have musicians who deny the element of traditional intonation. As they refuse to study the matter in the only way in which it can be studied, i.e. by listening to the best traditional singers and violin-players, their opinion can have no weight. On the other hand we have the extremists who regard every native speaker of Irish as a true exponent of traditional singing. Sometimes he is only an exponent of singing out of tune."
All of the above quotes are taken from the Foreword to Vol 1 of the Roche Collection, written by Cathaoir O'Braonain, 1909.
The music has always been angsted over ... at least by people who care ...
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
With respect benhall.1 - I am not missing the point. I could go into a long and involved discussion on this, but really I just cant be bothered getting annoyed again. This is the new quiet me. I admit I fell off the wagon today. I shoudlve just kept my mouth shut.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Why I said that was that you referred to 'bending' notes. And that is a million miles away from the heart of this, which is that the old way used a completely different system of intonation. They used to 'bend' notes as well, but their basis was soemthing quite different - it wasn't that they were starting from the 'normal' ie classical scale, in whatever temperament, and then 'bending' notes away from it.
If that's what you meant, it was the opposite of what you actually said.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Oh, and, in case anyone accuses me of it, I'm not trying to make out that I'm 'pure' in this. I can't do the old way consistently myself. I can do it on certain tunes that I learnt from the old boys, and I love hearing it, as you still sometimes do.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Ah well - sorry about that benhall. I was actually refering to the bending of pitches - not notes. Been a busy day I'm afraid. But I guess it is no big secret that the one thing that really annoys me is the 'Everyone is wrong and noone plays trad right anymore' speech. And I was just reacting. Which I shoudlnt be because it seems much wiser not to.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: You are all out of tune!!
If you don't---Who will? bb
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by ukestrum
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Someone as mouthy as Mr. Portnabucai,
I would need to see and hear.
probably a bunch of BS.
Put up or shut the f---up
I'm tired of being nice.,
I've been playing the 12 note chromatic scale
for forty years in and out of tune. In various types of music. from Cajun-Blues to Rock / Pop.etc.
ITM isnt any different. Either it sounds Good
or it Sucks.
trad music
We
Mr. P get on UTU
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by ukestrum
Re: You are all out of tune!!
"aren't we missing something special in the music by forgetting that it's origins are in a different tuning system?"
Ermmmm..... no.
Next question.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by RockyRoader
Re: You are all out of tune!!
The point is Mr Uke, it is actually different. Not by miles but it is different intonation wise from your cajun rock/pop scales. If you can't hear it, you won't hear when it it's right so put up and preferably just shut up if you're only going to let fly without addressing anything that was said.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Yes, uke, you've "been playing the 12 note chromatic scale
for forty years".
You are also "a newcomer to the world of ITM", I believe.
So, if you don't get it straight away, it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, including yourself.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
^^F ~ Don't you just miss the old moveable frets of the good ol' days? Maybe there's a future for the slide whistle in ITM after all? Hey, all you ex-brass players, now is the time to bring your trombone out of hibernation, flush the stink out of the pipes, and haul it along to your local session...
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I haven't read all the replys posted above, so I might have missed an answer to my question..
Is there one (or more) "irish traditionnal" that could be clearly defined by using a scale of "cents" in the same way we do it for Equal, Pythagorician, Meantone, Valloti and many other temperaments used for early music?
Maybe guitarists should use gut fret as on lutes...
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by DanaH
Re: You are all out of tune!!
That's a bloody good question. I'm not sure whether anyone has studied it that formally, but it would be a good idea, wouldn't it?
I also know (from the Roche source I quoted earlier) that "Dr Henebry and others" were doing something like that at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, but I don't know whether they ever concluded their work ... assuming that's possible ...
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I've played with the same bunch of guitar players for 30 years. BY DEFINITION, they are never out of tune. It is always the accordion, the piano, the keyboard, the whistle......NEVER them.
I tease them and ask them if their instruments came 'factory tuned' and if they require periodic maintenance...........
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by zippydw
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Does this thread conclude that distemper in instruments is nowhere near as serious as it is in animals?
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by drone
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I've seen someone at a session who regularly offers to tune other fiddlers' instruments with his electronic tuner before they start playing - an offer that is usually taken up. Those other fiddlers tend to be the less experienced, but they're certainly not beginners.
Think about the "logic" of that. Tuning someone's fiddle with an electronic tuner will get the open strings into some sort of tuning (probably equal temperament) by looking at flashing lights, numbers on an led, or an analogue needle, etc, as it drifts past a scale, but it won't get the fingers in tune.
In no way can tuned open strings guarantee that the player who receives the tuned fiddle back from the tuner is going to play the fiddle in tune without listening carefully to the results of finger placement on the strings. Any fiddle player who relies on using an electronic tuner for tuning the open strings is, in my view, always going to have problems with intonation in their playing until they learn to tune the strings by ear alone - under all acoustic conditions in a session.
I can see the point of using an electronic tuner to tune a fretted instrument, because their tuning is often complex, but the other day I saw someone tune his guitar by taking an "A" from another instrument and then do the remainder by ear - except that he "listened" to the guitar by gently biting the shoulder of the guitar with his teeth.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: You are all out of tune!!
"... the concertina (to my knowledge, always tuned in equal temperament)..."
"Concertinas are best not tuned to equal temperament and in a lot of cases they aren't."
Kilfarboy - I stand corrected.
"To my cloth ears, they all seem to play with their own individual intonation. The thing is that they do it consistently."
Yes, What?!!?. They play what they hear in their mind's ear, which is *their* music. The difference between them and someone who plays out of tune is that the notes they play are the notes they intend to play, not their closest approximations.
BTW, I've seen your ears, What?!!?, and they looked real to me. Or were you talking about your *clothiers*?
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by ragaman
Re: You are all out of tune!!
I'm sure no one thinks you have sartorial advisors, David.....
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Ottery
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Well, yes, but they only masquerade as sartorial advisors. They are really spies, employed to inform on other fiddlers' intonation.
These stone restorers have more money than they know what to do with...
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by ragaman
Apology to portnabpucai
I would like to apologize for my remarks the
other night. To much fruit of the vine.
Also sorry if I offended anyone else.
I'm not really mean spirited-
Just to much to soon. I should know better.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by ukestrum
Re: Apology to portnabpucai
Good on you for making amends.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Apology to portnabpucai
I want more proof that you're not mean-spirited. I think you should post another thread apologising again using different wording.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by Dow
Re: Apology to portnabpucai
Dow, I guess I deserved that.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by ukestrum
Re: Apology to portnabpucai
First of all, well done for apologising.
Funny the tricks memory plays, though isn't it? I didn't remember your comments as being mean-spirited at all. I just remembered them as being stupid. (I've looked at them again now, and I see that in fact they *were* a bit mean.)
Anyway, I can't see why anyone other than pornabpucai should be offended by what you said. I would suggest you e-mail him and apologise direct ... but I bet you've done that already ...
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Apology to portnabpucai
benhall.1 -No I haven't but I will e-mail him and
explain my ignorance.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by ukestrum
Re: Apology to portnabpucai
Good man
(I've had to do it myself)
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Gosh! Almost missed this ... now that it's moved and all ...
I thought something dreadful must have happened. Glad it didn't, and presume we're all back in tune with each other now.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Yeah I know!
I got an email from Jeremy telling
me not to start a new discussion - that if I wanted to apologize I should do it by email or on the same thread. I guess he moved it over. I didn't know the protocol. The reason I did a new thread - I was afraid it would get over looked. 'cause this one is so long. Well I guess you tune as you go.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by ukestrum
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Good one
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: You are all out of tune!!
Just to say that ukestrum didn't offend me at all, it was nice of him to apologise but as I said to him in an email it takes a lot to offend me, not even bb's ranting bothers me, in fact I fully expected it
Anyway if nothing else comes out of this I hope this discussion has inspired some of you to investigate the kind of music I'm talking about, once you learn to appreciate this kind of music you won't look at trad in the same way.
Now let me conjure up another provocative discussion topic........
# Posted on April 26th 2007 by portnabpucai
Re: You are all out of tune!!
You expected my ranting? Do we know each other in real life? Or am I just the b*tchy one on the site;)
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player