Happy Saint Georges day to all you fellow English people.Hope you're all going to toast him with some good English ale. I'm out with the Morris for beer, dancing and bangers and mash at the Hole in the Wall, Southsea,
Ric
I used to live in Southsea, but will be playing tunes in Cambridge tonight. Hope you can get a few pints of Gales HSB down you. Some good English tunes? Maybe The Floral Dance, Greensleeves, English Country Garden? British Grenadiers?
Gonna play some English tunes in the Star in Godalming later. And if anyone notices that we're playing eclusively English Tunes I'll eat my imaginary hat.
I don't think st George's day is 'traditionally' celebrated in England. When I was at school back in the Middle Ages, kids used to draw pictures of dragons, and something would be said at assembly, but the day was generally ignored by the adult population. The fact that it's now starting to get hyped up in 'Halloween' style suggests to me that someone has realized there's money in those dragons.
We used to play at The New Inn in Kilkhampton in Cornwall every St George's Day. We knew hardly any English tunes so we went with a load of alternative tune-names in case we were challenged (we never were!). So we played The Barnsley Pilgrim, Trip to Durham, Flowers of Middlesborough, Over the Moor to Margate, High Road to Lifton, Going to Wells for Water and that well-known rebel song The Fields of Hythe and Rye.
"Lillibulero. An English corruption of an Irish chant"
Yep. And a deliberate corruption at that, since it was a song used to taunt and lampoon the Irish Catholics. Also, in my post on it, I spelt it 'Lillabullero', an older spelling, and one which was used to denote the song in its derogatory use. (cf Tristram Shandy, one of my all-time favourite books.)
I think that 'The British Grenadiers' is also not especially popular in some Irish quarters, but I haven't been able to find out exactly why ...
Playing in a pub in Wales tonight - as an Englishman I will use the tactic of renaming all the tunes with English titles. Sounds fun - the idea that it is being commercialised is probably right but it does give us beer drinkers a chance to rave about the excellent range of english ales.
St. George (Born in Turkey, never came anywhere near England) is patron saint not only of England but also of Aragon, Catalonia, Georgia, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, Germany and Greece; and of Moscow, Istanbul, Genoa and Venice (second to Saint Mark). He's also patron saint of soldiers, archers, cavalry and chivalry, farmers and field workers, riders and saddlers, and he helps those suffering from leprosy, plague and syphilis (useful). In recent years he has been adopted as patron saint of Scouts.
So a fairly All-purpose saint then. I wonder who decided he should be the Patron Saint of England (I suspect the people of England had little say in this matter) - Probably the same person who decided that Morris-Dancing should be the national dance ...
Let's be fair - it was St. George who killed the dragon; the English did not claim to have done it. There was probably some demarcation clause preventing them; else, assuredly, the manly Saxon swains would have rushed upon it as one man, scragged the life out of it and flavoured their crisps with it from then till now.
Of course because if the english were fighting dragons they would have sent the irish in first. St . Patrick fought the snakes so the english had to go one better(a Dragon).Happy St Georges Day but someone explain what ye are celebrating .
Those of us old enough to remember the Frogs invading us will vouch that Saint Edmund is the patron saint of England with his white flag featuring a red dragon.
That white flag with the red cross affair was inflicted on us by William the Conkerer in his Sagesse Normande (Norman Wisdom) as he won that particular day.
"The worst of the Grenadiers the deserters etc. became black and tans .
I don't understand how someone could celebrate the actions of the Grenadiers"
Yes, I get that, saint. An aversion to the Grenadiers themselves .
But I thought there was some particular reason for an aversion to the tune/song 'The British Grenadiers'. *That's* the bit I can't find out about. I know it's true, and happy to accept that it is true. But why, in particular?
That Morris has a lot to answer for. To cap it all, he sent his son to public school, where he became (wait for it ! wait for it !)....Morris Minor. (I know, it's the way I tell 'em)
Steve quipped: Had Morris Minor gone to a public school he surely would have subsequently ended up at an elite university. Morris? Oxford?
As an aside, it was the car works at Cowley (remember the Morris Cowley?) just outside Oxford that brought in Irish workers, some of whom came to the folk club and were my first introduction to fiddles and whistles and banjos and mandolins and songs like Skibbereen.
Wasn't/isn't there a Salesian college at Cowley? There were only eight in the whole country and I went to one of the others, in Bolton. With all those Irish workers there'd have been good catchment for the school!
Well we didn't play British Grenadiers or Lillibulero (however you spell it) - or any other particularly English tunes. These are both popular morris tunes: http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/morris/music/abclib.html and hanky-waving morris dancers never seem particularly militaristic or inclined to lampoon anyone other than themselves, though I expect there's all kinds of dark stuff behind the dances if you dig deep enough. The tunes must go back further than any military or political associations that might rule them out of order. Here's a link to a suggestion that Brit Gren is derived from a Carolan tune "Grace Nugent" (does sound a bit similar - apologies to work colleagues who have to put up with me playing the mandolin at my desk this early in the day!) http://www.jstor.org/view/00274666/ap030346/03a00360/1?frame=noframe&userID=896c910b@open.ac.uk/01cce4406000501b9cbad&dpi=3&config=jstor
It also says there's a stronger resembance to "Sir Edward Nowell's Delight", and that was published before Carolan was born.
HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Happy Saint Georges day to all you fellow English people.Hope you're all going to toast him with some good English ale. I'm out with the Morris for beer, dancing and bangers and mash at the Hole in the Wall, Southsea,
Ric
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by ricthewhistle
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Morrissing at the George and Dragon, Thames Ditton, Surrey, from 8pm onwards.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Martin Milner
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
I used to live in Southsea, but will be playing tunes in Cambridge tonight. Hope you can get a few pints of Gales HSB down you. Some good English tunes? Maybe The Floral Dance, Greensleeves, English Country Garden? British Grenadiers?
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by RichardB
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Happy St Georges day from this side of the Irish Sea guys!
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by jfiddlerh
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Morris- that used to be a make of car, didn't it?
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by P-K
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
The British Grenadiers, eh? Why not go the whole hog and play Lillabullero?
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
One of the things wrong with the BBC World Service now is that they hardly ever play their crackly old signature tune (Lillibulero)
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by RichardB
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Are the British Grenadiers English?
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by nicholas
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Gonna play some English tunes in the Star in Godalming later. And if anyone notices that we're playing eclusively English Tunes I'll eat my imaginary hat.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by NeilC
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
I don't think st George's day is 'traditionally' celebrated in England. When I was at school back in the Middle Ages, kids used to draw pictures of dragons, and something would be said at assembly, but the day was generally ignored by the adult population. The fact that it's now starting to get hyped up in 'Halloween' style suggests to me that someone has realized there's money in those dragons.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Ottery
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
We used to play at The New Inn in Kilkhampton in Cornwall every St George's Day. We knew hardly any English tunes so we went with a load of alternative tune-names in case we were challenged (we never were!). So we played The Barnsley Pilgrim, Trip to Durham, Flowers of Middlesborough, Over the Moor to Margate, High Road to Lifton, Going to Wells for Water and that well-known rebel song The Fields of Hythe and Rye.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Lillibulero. An English corruption of an Irish chant:
Lile ba léir ó,
Ba linne an lá.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Sinocal
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
"Lillibulero. An English corruption of an Irish chant"
Yep. And a deliberate corruption at that, since it was a song used to taunt and lampoon the Irish Catholics. Also, in my post on it, I spelt it 'Lillabullero', an older spelling, and one which was used to denote the song in its derogatory use. (cf Tristram Shandy, one of my all-time favourite books.)
I think that 'The British Grenadiers' is also not especially popular in some Irish quarters, but I haven't been able to find out exactly why ...
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
I think a lot of ITM musicians would be rather disinclined to play Lillibulero. Ahem.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
I can play Lili Marlene if it helps.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by P-K
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Morris tunes played in celebration of... of... of... um...
I think I might finally get round to applying for Australian citizenship after all.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Dow
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
I think that 'The British Grenadiers' is also not especially popular in some Irish quarters, but I haven't been able to find out exactly why ...
The worst of the Grenadiers the deserters etc. became black and tans .
I don t understand how someone could celebrate the actions of the grenadiers.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Playing in a pub in Wales tonight - as an Englishman I will use the tactic of renaming all the tunes with English titles. Sounds fun - the idea that it is being commercialised is probably right but it does give us beer drinkers a chance to rave about the excellent range of english ales.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Llanman
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
St. George (Born in Turkey, never came anywhere near England) is patron saint not only of England but also of Aragon, Catalonia, Georgia, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, Germany and Greece; and of Moscow, Istanbul, Genoa and Venice (second to Saint Mark). He's also patron saint of soldiers, archers, cavalry and chivalry, farmers and field workers, riders and saddlers, and he helps those suffering from leprosy, plague and syphilis (useful). In recent years he has been adopted as patron saint of Scouts.
So a fairly All-purpose saint then. I wonder who decided he should be the Patron Saint of England (I suspect the people of England had little say in this matter) - Probably the same person who decided that Morris-Dancing should be the national dance ...
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Ottery
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
10 thousand english soliders could not defeat 350 Irishmen .So to say one killed a dragon is a bit much ha ha.
Can I be the patron SAINT of the session........
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Let's be fair - it was St. George who killed the dragon; the English did not claim to have done it. There was probably some demarcation clause preventing them; else, assuredly, the manly Saxon swains would have rushed upon it as one man, scragged the life out of it and flavoured their crisps with it from then till now.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by nicholas
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Of course because if the english were fighting dragons they would have sent the irish in first. St . Patrick fought the snakes so the english had to go one better(a Dragon).Happy St Georges Day but someone explain what ye are celebrating .
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: La Sagesse Normande
Those of us old enough to remember the Frogs invading us will vouch that Saint Edmund is the patron saint of England with his white flag featuring a red dragon.
That white flag with the red cross affair was inflicted on us by William the Conkerer in his Sagesse Normande (Norman Wisdom) as he won that particular day.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by geoffwright
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
"The worst of the Grenadiers the deserters etc. became black and tans .
I don't understand how someone could celebrate the actions of the Grenadiers"
Yes, I get that, saint. An aversion to the Grenadiers themselves .
But I thought there was some particular reason for an aversion to the tune/song 'The British Grenadiers'. *That's* the bit I can't find out about. I know it's true, and happy to accept that it is true. But why, in particular?
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
St George might not be English, but as an Turkish Roman Soldier who is venerated by both Islam and Christianity, at least he's multicultural.
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
That Morris has a lot to answer for. To cap it all, he sent his son to public school, where he became (wait for it ! wait for it !)....Morris Minor. (I know, it's the way I tell 'em)
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by P-K
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
BTW - Today is 'The day of the book' over here. Was St. George able to read?
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by kuec
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
If that Morris fella had lived in the time of St George, he might have been a knight - Morris Chevalier
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Had Morris Minor gone to a public school he surely would have subsequently ended up at an elite university. Morris? Oxford?
# Posted on April 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Steve quipped: Had Morris Minor gone to a public school he surely would have subsequently ended up at an elite university. Morris? Oxford?
As an aside, it was the car works at Cowley (remember the Morris Cowley?) just outside Oxford that brought in Irish workers, some of whom came to the folk club and were my first introduction to fiddles and whistles and banjos and mandolins and songs like Skibbereen.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Wasn't/isn't there a Salesian college at Cowley? There were only eight in the whole country and I went to one of the others, in Bolton. With all those Irish workers there'd have been good catchment for the school!
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Happy Shakespeare's birthday.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
It's a little known fact, but it was the Salesians who introduced the shillelagh into Morris dancing.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by P-K
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Well we didn't play British Grenadiers or Lillibulero (however you spell it) - or any other particularly English tunes. These are both popular morris tunes: http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/morris/music/abclib.html and hanky-waving morris dancers never seem particularly militaristic or inclined to lampoon anyone other than themselves, though I expect there's all kinds of dark stuff behind the dances if you dig deep enough. The tunes must go back further than any military or political associations that might rule them out of order. Here's a link to a suggestion that Brit Gren is derived from a Carolan tune "Grace Nugent" (does sound a bit similar - apologies to work colleagues who have to put up with me playing the mandolin at my desk this early in the day!)
http://www.jstor.org/view/00274666/ap030346/03a00360/1?frame=noframe&userID=896c910b@open.ac.uk/01cce4406000501b9cbad&dpi=3&config=jstor
It also says there's a stronger resembance to "Sir Edward Nowell's Delight", and that was published before Carolan was born.
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by RichardB
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Doh!- only just got the Morris Chevalier- nice one, Ben
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by P-K
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
... and I was really proud of that one, too ...
# Posted on April 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
At least Saint George killed a dragon.All Saint Patrick did was banish a snake. No Contest.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by ricthewhistle
Re: HAPPY SAINT GEORGE'S DAY
Snake banishing is not as easy as it sounds.
# Posted on April 25th 2007 by P-K