The other day I came across a version of Brest St. Marc arranged as a 6/8 7/8 jig. I was told in another forum that Andy Irvine uses 7/8 a fair bit, but I haven't come across this 6/8 7/8 pattern before. In this setting the first two parts were straight 6/8 but the last two parts were written bar of 6/8 three bars 7/8. It's a nice rythym but takes me getting used to when I'm used to straight 6/8. Has anybody any info on this style of jig
The Lunasa Tune Book has a tune "Thunderhead", by Grey Larsen, which is in 7/8, except in the B part where the last but one bar is in 6/8. Bars 7 and 8 in the B part also have a 3-into-2 bit as well. Oh, and I reckon the tune is in B phrygian (key note B and only one sharp), which isn't very common. It isn't difficult to convert this tune into a straight 6/8. For instance, if the last two notes in a bar are F2F2 you replace them with F2F, and fBBf would similarly be replaced with fBf.
I suspect the point about 7/8 is that you can't divide a bar into two equal halves, as you can with 6/8. What you get is a displaced second accent (guaranteed to confuse an unskilled rhythm player who doesn't know what's happening!) The first 2 bars of Thunderhead are |B3 fB Bf|eBB dB BA|, which illustrates this exactly. Converted to 6/8 these two bars would be |B3 fBf|eBB dBA|.
The great jazz pianist Dave Brubeck has experimented a lot with non-standard time signatures. "Take Five" (in 5/4) is a famous example which really swings when done properly. He also wrote "Unsquare Dance" in 7/4, and his notes to the tune say "... is a challenge to the foot-tappers, finger-snappers and hand-clappers. Deceitfully simple, it refuses to be squared ..."
He also wrote "Blue Rondo A La Turk" which is nominally in 9/8, but he divides the beat into 2+2+2+3 (all the 1/8 notes the same length), so the effect is a bit like 4/4 with a slightly longer 4th beat in the bar. Anyone like to have a go at writing a slipjig on this basis?
Trevor, I think Thunderhead and Brest St. Marc may be the same tune. I have a straight 6/8 version which credits Grey Larsen and your Lunasa tune sounds like another variation, now I'm eeeven more confused.
Yep just looked in the tune section here and it has thunderhead/Brest St. Marc in a slightly different version to the one I have but again in straight 6/8
With regard to Thunderhead, Grey Larsen and Malcolm Dalglish recorded it both in 6/8 and 7/8. The first couple of times through it's 6/8 and then switches to 7/8. I think Kevin Burke is on fiddle on that tune.
This a little off topic but someone else already mentioned jazz and Dave Brubeck and Take Five. That was actually composed by Paul Desmond, I think. In the late 60s and early 70s trumpet player Don Ellis led a big band that played almost totally in odd time signatures. He would have consedered 5/4 pretty tame. He used really scary time signatures like 17/19. He died at age 44.
I've been writing tunes in interesting time signatures and phrase patterns for some time and I've had some good tunes come out of it. These meters are easy to understand if you break them down into groups of 2 and 3 beats. So in 5/8 you have a 3+2 or a 2+3. In 7/8= 3+2+2, 2+3+2, 2+2+3
10/8= 3+3+2+2, 3+2+3+2(2bars5/8), 3+2+2+3, 2+3+2+3, 2+2+3+3, 2+3+3+2,
Obviously as you get to higher numbers the permutations increase.
You can play 4/4 as 3+3+2(Bo Diddly) and in Africa and South America they usually do.
One of my favourites is
12/8= 2+2+3+2+3
I would post some but the Mighty Blinkered Ones would go apoplectic.
All the best PP
If anyone has a problem with these time signatures I suggest you listen to East Wind featuring Andy Irvine and Davy Spillane. Some fantastic music on there and well worth a listen. In terms of playing these tunes at sessions, it only really works as a solo, unless you can convince your friends to learn them or if they decide off their own bat to learn them simply because they like the tunes. Desi Wilkinson has a few Bulgarian tunes up his sleeves that he likes to trot out now and again, and if any of the Americans here are familiar with Eamonn Dillon (check the links section), he used to play horos with his sister when he lived in Belfast; even Flook! do a number of Eastern tunes. So it's not unheard of to have Eastern European tunes crop up in sessions; I think the main obstacle is getting your head around the time signatures which isn't that hard if you put your mind to it.
I have found three other tunes which contain at least one 7/8 bar.
1. "The Wild Irish Boy" (jig). #353 in O'Neill's Music of Ireland. An 8-bar tune (no repeats), and the 4th bar has 7/8, which, at session speed, I doubt whether most people would notice.
2. "Spaghetti Panic" (reel?). An incredibly long tune composed by
Andy Cutting, and I believe performed by Niall Keegan in Don't Touch the Elk. There are over 20 time changes, involving 5/8, 6/8, 7/8, and 8/8. A tune for the concert platform or recording studio, I reckon, and definitely not a tune for your average session.
3. "Greeny", a jig entirely in 7/8 and mercifully in standard 2*8 format. Composed by Emer Mayock. I don't think this would be a bad session tune. If played at speed it would sound almost like 6/8, but with a slightly displaced secondary accent.
If anyone would like to see the ABCs of these tunes please email me at thesession and I'll email back the ABCs. In particular I'd like some opinions on submitting "Greeny".
I heard Grey Larsen (we both live in Indiana) play Thunderhead (he told the story about how he wrote it) for a small audience, and he went back and forth between an straight jig version and the 7/8 version to show the difference and similarity.
After I was thinking about jazz in odd meters, I recalled that guitar and cittern player Robin Bullock has composed some tunes in diffferent meters. One is Storm Warning which is in 5/4 and 10/4. There's one or two others in the Helicon tunebook. Storm Warning is a nice tune but sometimes I can't make much sense out of them unless I hear the way they are intended to be played. Old time fiddler Pete Sutherland has composed a sort of Celtoid tune in 10/4 called Ten Four.
Thanks for the replies. I'd heard about the odd time signatures in Middle Eastern music and Jazz but I'd just never come across it in Celtic stuff. I'll look up the wild irish boy and love to have the other tunes , Trevor. This could be my chance to get the local session crew all playing out of time but me. (It's usually the other way round :0)). And that brings up another question.
Afew days ago I was playing King of the Fairies with a fiddler and all was sounding nice but somewhere in the last section we seemed to part company, we played through three times and it happened all three times. Now I've heard him play it solo and it sounds fine, nothing strange, and I often play it with a whistler and its fine, is there an explanation maybe a version with an extra wee note or something. I can't figure out where we were parting ways.
I think it would be worth it starting a 7/9 jig just to get the bodhran players confused, but the risk to life, limb and instrument would be still too high.
Thanks to y'all for posting these comments on unusual time signatures. I was thinking maybe I was crazy. I try to count some tunes (I'm thinking of Kornog in particular), and the best I can come up with is that they must be in 1/4. But 17/19!
Mmmm..... just jumped into this discussion by googling "7/8 jig". Why google 7/8 jig ? Because someone recently posted here what I think they termed a seven eight reel (only I forgot it was a reel and looked for jigs). I've had quite fun learning it but it screws my head up which may account for the nature of this post. The tune is imaginatively called "seven of eight". I think the only other 7/8 I know is Snosti Sakav Da Ti Doydem which is somewhat easier to learn, fun to play but needs a fairly decent accompanyment to maintain interest.
Now being more of a masochist than a musician I think I'll go look for some more 7/8s or other funny stuff.
6/8 7/8 jigs
6/8 7/8 jigs
The other day I came across a version of Brest St. Marc arranged as a 6/8 7/8 jig. I was told in another forum that Andy Irvine uses 7/8 a fair bit, but I haven't come across this 6/8 7/8 pattern before. In this setting the first two parts were straight 6/8 but the last two parts were written bar of 6/8 three bars 7/8. It's a nice rythym but takes me getting used to when I'm used to straight 6/8. Has anybody any info on this style of jig
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Davetnova
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
The Lunasa Tune Book has a tune "Thunderhead", by Grey Larsen, which is in 7/8, except in the B part where the last but one bar is in 6/8. Bars 7 and 8 in the B part also have a 3-into-2 bit as well. Oh, and I reckon the tune is in B phrygian (key note B and only one sharp), which isn't very common. It isn't difficult to convert this tune into a straight 6/8. For instance, if the last two notes in a bar are F2F2 you replace them with F2F, and fBBf would similarly be replaced with fBf.
I suspect the point about 7/8 is that you can't divide a bar into two equal halves, as you can with 6/8. What you get is a displaced second accent (guaranteed to confuse an unskilled rhythm player who doesn't know what's happening!) The first 2 bars of Thunderhead are |B3 fB Bf|eBB dB BA|, which illustrates this exactly. Converted to 6/8 these two bars would be |B3 fBf|eBB dBA|.
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
The great jazz pianist Dave Brubeck has experimented a lot with non-standard time signatures. "Take Five" (in 5/4) is a famous example which really swings when done properly. He also wrote "Unsquare Dance" in 7/4, and his notes to the tune say "... is a challenge to the foot-tappers, finger-snappers and hand-clappers. Deceitfully simple, it refuses to be squared ..."
He also wrote "Blue Rondo A La Turk" which is nominally in 9/8, but he divides the beat into 2+2+2+3 (all the 1/8 notes the same length), so the effect is a bit like 4/4 with a slightly longer 4th beat in the bar. Anyone like to have a go at writing a slipjig on this basis?
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
Trevor, I think Thunderhead and Brest St. Marc may be the same tune. I have a straight 6/8 version which credits Grey Larsen and your Lunasa tune sounds like another variation, now I'm eeeven more confused.
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Davetnova
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
Yep just looked in the tune section here and it has thunderhead/Brest St. Marc in a slightly different version to the one I have but again in straight 6/8
# Posted on January 28th 2003 by Davetnova
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
With regard to Thunderhead, Grey Larsen and Malcolm Dalglish recorded it both in 6/8 and 7/8. The first couple of times through it's 6/8 and then switches to 7/8. I think Kevin Burke is on fiddle on that tune.
Steve
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by SteveKendall
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
This a little off topic but someone else already mentioned jazz and Dave Brubeck and Take Five. That was actually composed by Paul Desmond, I think. In the late 60s and early 70s trumpet player Don Ellis led a big band that played almost totally in odd time signatures. He would have consedered 5/4 pretty tame. He used really scary time signatures like 17/19. He died at age 44.
Steve
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by SteveKendall
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
If there's any good in that, it's that he isn't going to show up in my session anytime soon.
17/19 indeed. Go get a life! 
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by glauber
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
I've been writing tunes in interesting time signatures and phrase patterns for some time and I've had some good tunes come out of it. These meters are easy to understand if you break them down into groups of 2 and 3 beats. So in 5/8 you have a 3+2 or a 2+3. In 7/8= 3+2+2, 2+3+2, 2+2+3
10/8= 3+3+2+2, 3+2+3+2(2bars5/8), 3+2+2+3, 2+3+2+3, 2+2+3+3, 2+3+3+2,
Obviously as you get to higher numbers the permutations increase.
You can play 4/4 as 3+3+2(Bo Diddly) and in Africa and South America they usually do.
One of my favourites is
12/8= 2+2+3+2+3
I would post some but the Mighty Blinkered Ones would go apoplectic.
All the best PP
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
If anyone has a problem with these time signatures I suggest you listen to East Wind featuring Andy Irvine and Davy Spillane. Some fantastic music on there and well worth a listen. In terms of playing these tunes at sessions, it only really works as a solo, unless you can convince your friends to learn them or if they decide off their own bat to learn them simply because they like the tunes. Desi Wilkinson has a few Bulgarian tunes up his sleeves that he likes to trot out now and again, and if any of the Americans here are familiar with Eamonn Dillon (check the links section), he used to play horos with his sister when he lived in Belfast; even Flook! do a number of Eastern tunes. So it's not unheard of to have Eastern European tunes crop up in sessions; I think the main obstacle is getting your head around the time signatures which isn't that hard if you put your mind to it.
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
I have found three other tunes which contain at least one 7/8 bar.
1. "The Wild Irish Boy" (jig). #353 in O'Neill's Music of Ireland. An 8-bar tune (no repeats), and the 4th bar has 7/8, which, at session speed, I doubt whether most people would notice.
2. "Spaghetti Panic" (reel?). An incredibly long tune composed by
Andy Cutting, and I believe performed by Niall Keegan in Don't Touch the Elk. There are over 20 time changes, involving 5/8, 6/8, 7/8, and 8/8. A tune for the concert platform or recording studio, I reckon, and definitely not a tune for your average session.
3. "Greeny", a jig entirely in 7/8 and mercifully in standard 2*8 format. Composed by Emer Mayock. I don't think this would be a bad session tune. If played at speed it would sound almost like 6/8, but with a slightly displaced secondary accent.
If anyone would like to see the ABCs of these tunes please email me at thesession and I'll email back the ABCs. In particular I'd like some opinions on submitting "Greeny".
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
I heard Grey Larsen (we both live in Indiana) play Thunderhead (he told the story about how he wrote it) for a small audience, and he went back and forth between an straight jig version and the 7/8 version to show the difference and similarity.
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by KenC
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
After I was thinking about jazz in odd meters, I recalled that guitar and cittern player Robin Bullock has composed some tunes in diffferent meters. One is Storm Warning which is in 5/4 and 10/4. There's one or two others in the Helicon tunebook. Storm Warning is a nice tune but sometimes I can't make much sense out of them unless I hear the way they are intended to be played. Old time fiddler Pete Sutherland has composed a sort of Celtoid tune in 10/4 called Ten Four.
Steve
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by SteveKendall
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
Thanks for the replies. I'd heard about the odd time signatures in Middle Eastern music and Jazz but I'd just never come across it in Celtic stuff. I'll look up the wild irish boy and love to have the other tunes , Trevor. This could be my chance to get the local session crew all playing out of time but me. (It's usually the other way round :0)). And that brings up another question.
Afew days ago I was playing King of the Fairies with a fiddler and all was sounding nice but somewhere in the last section we seemed to part company, we played through three times and it happened all three times. Now I've heard him play it solo and it sounds fine, nothing strange, and I often play it with a whistler and its fine, is there an explanation maybe a version with an extra wee note or something. I can't figure out where we were parting ways.
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by Davetnova
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
I think it would be worth it starting a 7/9 jig just to get the bodhran players confused, but the risk to life, limb and instrument would be still too high.
Gimmicks exist in any kind of music.
# Posted on January 29th 2003 by glauber
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
Thanks to y'all for posting these comments on unusual time signatures. I was thinking maybe I was crazy. I try to count some tunes (I'm thinking of Kornog in particular), and the best I can come up with is that they must be in 1/4. But 17/19!
# Posted on January 31st 2003 by carolsviolin
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
Then there's always Seven Dancers by Peter Knight, might not be OK to post here.
# Posted on February 2nd 2003 by marathoner
Re: 6/8 7/8 jigs
Mmmm..... just jumped into this discussion by googling "7/8 jig". Why google 7/8 jig ? Because someone recently posted here what I think they termed a seven eight reel (only I forgot it was a reel and looked for jigs). I've had quite fun learning it but it screws my head up which may account for the nature of this post. The tune is imaginatively called "seven of eight". I think the only other 7/8 I know is Snosti Sakav Da Ti Doydem which is somewhat easier to learn, fun to play but needs a fairly decent accompanyment to maintain interest.
Now being more of a masochist than a musician I think I'll go look for some more 7/8s or other funny stuff.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by kayeselle