In 1927, the Little Wonder sold for $60 (new), and the Orpheum for $70. Does that help?
I played a Little Wonder for a while (borrowed) and found it good for sessions. I've seen them commonly advertized for $4-500, as Upsetter suggests.
I think that the Orpheum is a better sounding banjo for Irish. The Orpheums were made by Rettberg and Lange (William Lange, who also made the Paramount banjos), and have a distinctive arch-top tone ring.
The Little Wonder was a popular model, but it was more of a base model without some of the nice inlay that you'll find on the Orpheum. The Little Wonder tone ring was used for many years. I had a 1960's "Wonder Tenor" that still used the same tone ring, although it had a resonator.
But I think the Orpheums are better, personally.
I agree with Upsetter. You should be able to get a good Orpheum for around $450 or so. You might be able to find a better deal, but the main things to look for are:
* Is the neck straight?
* Is the neck at the right angle? (And not been shimmed, which will affect the tone)
* Is there massive fret or fretboard wear?
* Is all the hardware there (and original)?
I have seen Orpheums in prime condition sell for about $800 (US).
Orpheum banjos are always dated "1915" for some reason. They are a good sounding banjo and a lot of fun to play. A lot of banjo players started out on one and have fond memories of them. They have a simple tone ring that forms an arch top.
Vega Little Wonders are two steps up from the bottom on the Scale of Vega banjos. They were built from about 1925 to well into the '30s and later. They were built at the same time as the "golden age" Vegas were built, often by the same craftsmen, and are also nice banjos to play.
That being said, there are reasons to get either one (or both, the way I did) and it will often break down to the sound.
Lange built banjos tend to be a little brighter, are more complex in their manufacture, and have fancier necks and inlays. The drawbacks are a tendency to delaminate at the rim and neck. The one offered on Ebay for $450 is not a bad buy, especially since it seems to have an original tail piece that can be worth between $75 abd $150 depending on the style of no-knot attached.
Vega Little Wonders are going for more money nowadays than the Orpheum #1s. Often they are superb sounding banjos and they will take the standard Vega resonator set. They are not just a simple hoop, they have a bracket band on them which changes the sound. They also come in both 17 and 19 frets depending on when they were built. The one I have is particularily good and probably built by one of the more experienced craftsmen at the plant. LWs are louder than the Orpheum #1s and they tend to increase in value a little faster.
Both are fine instruments and you will not lose money if you decide to sell them later for another instrument. My bias is towards the LW because the one I got was a better instrument than my Orpheum #1.
I have had a Vega Little Wonder for 4 months now. It's a 19-fret version and it has the sound that I am looking for in a banjo. That said, you might have a different preferance in the sound of your banjo so it's hard to tell you which one to go and buy.
I played an Orphium a few months ago in a session and can't remember whether it was a #1 or a #3. It wasn't as loud as the Vega and while it sounded nice and respectable, it wasn't the type of banjo I would be satisfied with.
If someone you know has either banjo then try it out.
just to elaborate on my situation, i m based in the orkney islands, and don t have the oppurtunity to try before i buy, so i m going to have to go in blind.
i ve been playing a 19 fret framus for a few years now.. its the first banjo i ve had, although i ve been playing mandolin and octave mandolin for a long time.
its not a bad instrument, but for me the scale length is much too long, and i ve decided to go for 17 fret which would be much closer in scale to my octave mando.
i d also prefer something a bit lighter (hence looking at open back instruments) and would also like something brighter sounding - the framus is very dark, although this may well be a set up issue.
not so worried about volume, as i ve got a decent fishman pickup to put on whatever i get.
of the two i ve asked about here, i ve played an orpheum before and was really impressed, although i can t remember which model it was. it was much more ornate than the one i ve seen. do these banjos vary a lot in construction / materials from model to model? i dont want to pay a lot extra for fancy inlays etc. the one i was looking at was from a reputable dealer recommended elsewhere on this site, selling at $500.
i ve seen a little wonder which is already in the uk, selling for £425, seller says 'straight neck, little fret wear' but just average condition. haven't ever played one of these, but they seem to have a good reputation.
by the time i ve paid for shipping costs / import duty i guess there wont be much in price between the two, so it's a difficult choice.
one thing i ve noticed is that all these old instruments seem to cost more this side of the pond. are these two a good choice in this price range, or should i be looking for more for my money? are there any other banjos i should consider?
thanks for the advice so far. anything else greatly appreciated.
all vintage instruments are more expensive inside the EU because of (a) the shipping costs across the pond and (b) the imposition of import duty, VAT and a customs clearance charge on arrival in the EU. EU rules treat all working musical instruments as if they were brand new - irrespective of actual age and condition. the only exemption is for historic items that are not intended for use as musical instruments. crazy, but that's the rules .....
at that sort of money, i'd say you should also check out the modern Gold Tone shortscale tenors - £395 for either the "vega" style IT250 or the "gibson" style SS250 -both models with a 17 fret neck and very short (20") scale length. overall reliability and spares availability miles ahead of anything vintage and no set-up or intonation issues .. agreed, there is depreciation on new instruments - but the running costs/spares are way cheaper and you seldom get nasty surprises ..
I understand your argument for getting a new instrument, but I respectfully disagree.
Older 17 fret instruments don't have the neck problems that 19 fret vintage instruments tend to have, specifically the bending or twisting of the neck. They do have problems with delamination, but that is fixable, even by an amateur. The new Gold Tone instruments don't have the value or the sound of the vintage ones and they still need some tweaking including new tuners and tailpeices. If you replace these items, they are not bad but I still like the sound of the vintage instruments.
In addition, for the same price basically, you are getting a better made banjo from the era in which banjos were prized.
Granted, you can get screwed if you end up with a twisted broken banjo, but if the dealer is honest, he or she will take it back or fix it. This is the advantage of working with a good dealer and if you live six kilometers from the North Pole, the way Brian seems to, it is a real help. The same is true of a new instrument from someone like Andybanjo, but the resale value of the instrument at a distance is much less.
thnks for advice teetot, though i reckon i m with mike on the old versus new argument.
do you knowif there's a simple formula for working out the import duty et al on an instrument coming into the eu?
mike - i take exception to the assumption that orkney is 6 km from the pole . it's much closer than that btw, i ve been reading all the old tenor threads and your knowledge and advice is greatly appreciated thus far in my attempts to make an informed buy.
i m now tempted more by the orpheum as it is from a dealer as opposed to little wonder from unknown quantity.... but i ll prob hang on for a bit yet , and change my mind a few more times too- thrill of the chase and all that.
any thoughts on windsor tenors? missed out on one on ebay today at what seemed a bargain price
"Maybelle" was a brand name from Slingerland who made, for the most part, modest banjos. The Maybelle brand came in a variety of price points and the most common were the entry level banjos with a simple tone ring. I have two of them and they are about the same as the Gold Tone 17 fret banjos mentioned above.
There are a few high end Maybelles (distunguished by top of the line appointments, a sophisticated tone ring system, marquetry, and good tuners, tailpiece, etc.) but they are relatively rare as they had to compete with very good banjos at that level and for the same money you could have a Paramount, Vega, Bacon, Gibson, Epiphone or a Weymann. I have played a few of these and while they are nice, they don't hold up as well and the sound is not pleasing to my ear.
On the other hand, if you get one of the entry level banjos for a good price, they are very playable and can be set up to sound pretty good if a little quiet. A similar Vega or Bacon banjo will be louder and hold their value.
vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
both short scale, open back. 17 fret. both 1920s. both in good condition.
which is the better banjo (or what respective pros and cons) and what should i expect to pay for each?
many thanks.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by saltybrian
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
Don't know what one would expect to pay ($400-500?), but the Orpheums are totally, totally underrated.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by Upsetter
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
In 1927, the Little Wonder sold for $60 (new), and the Orpheum for $70. Does that help?
I played a Little Wonder for a while (borrowed) and found it good for sessions. I've seen them commonly advertized for $4-500, as Upsetter suggests.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
I think that the Orpheum is a better sounding banjo for Irish. The Orpheums were made by Rettberg and Lange (William Lange, who also made the Paramount banjos), and have a distinctive arch-top tone ring.
The Little Wonder was a popular model, but it was more of a base model without some of the nice inlay that you'll find on the Orpheum. The Little Wonder tone ring was used for many years. I had a 1960's "Wonder Tenor" that still used the same tone ring, although it had a resonator.
But I think the Orpheums are better, personally.
I agree with Upsetter. You should be able to get a good Orpheum for around $450 or so. You might be able to find a better deal, but the main things to look for are:
* Is the neck straight?
* Is the neck at the right angle? (And not been shimmed, which will affect the tone)
* Is there massive fret or fretboard wear?
* Is all the hardware there (and original)?
I have seen Orpheums in prime condition sell for about $800 (US).
Pete
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by Reverend
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
Here is a few Orpheum banjos on ebay.
http://search.ebay.com/Orpheum-banjo_W0QQfromZR6QQfrppZ50QQpfidZ0QQsofindtypeZ0QQsofocusZbsQQsspagenameZhQ3ahQ3afitemQ3aUS
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by mick_the_tool
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
Orpheum banjos are always dated "1915" for some reason. They are a good sounding banjo and a lot of fun to play. A lot of banjo players started out on one and have fond memories of them. They have a simple tone ring that forms an arch top.
Vega Little Wonders are two steps up from the bottom on the Scale of Vega banjos. They were built from about 1925 to well into the '30s and later. They were built at the same time as the "golden age" Vegas were built, often by the same craftsmen, and are also nice banjos to play.
That being said, there are reasons to get either one (or both, the way I did) and it will often break down to the sound.
Lange built banjos tend to be a little brighter, are more complex in their manufacture, and have fancier necks and inlays. The drawbacks are a tendency to delaminate at the rim and neck. The one offered on Ebay for $450 is not a bad buy, especially since it seems to have an original tail piece that can be worth between $75 abd $150 depending on the style of no-knot attached.
Vega Little Wonders are going for more money nowadays than the Orpheum #1s. Often they are superb sounding banjos and they will take the standard Vega resonator set. They are not just a simple hoop, they have a bracket band on them which changes the sound. They also come in both 17 and 19 frets depending on when they were built. The one I have is particularily good and probably built by one of the more experienced craftsmen at the plant. LWs are louder than the Orpheum #1s and they tend to increase in value a little faster.
Both are fine instruments and you will not lose money if you decide to sell them later for another instrument. My bias is towards the LW because the one I got was a better instrument than my Orpheum #1.
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
http://www.banjosessions.com
http://www.mandolinsessions.com
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
I have had a Vega Little Wonder for 4 months now. It's a 19-fret version and it has the sound that I am looking for in a banjo. That said, you might have a different preferance in the sound of your banjo so it's hard to tell you which one to go and buy.
I played an Orphium a few months ago in a session and can't remember whether it was a #1 or a #3. It wasn't as loud as the Vega and while it sounded nice and respectable, it wasn't the type of banjo I would be satisfied with.
If someone you know has either banjo then try it out.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by 52Paddy
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
just to elaborate on my situation, i m based in the orkney islands, and don t have the oppurtunity to try before i buy, so i m going to have to go in blind.
i ve been playing a 19 fret framus for a few years now.. its the first banjo i ve had, although i ve been playing mandolin and octave mandolin for a long time.
its not a bad instrument, but for me the scale length is much too long, and i ve decided to go for 17 fret which would be much closer in scale to my octave mando.
i d also prefer something a bit lighter (hence looking at open back instruments) and would also like something brighter sounding - the framus is very dark, although this may well be a set up issue.
not so worried about volume, as i ve got a decent fishman pickup to put on whatever i get.
of the two i ve asked about here, i ve played an orpheum before and was really impressed, although i can t remember which model it was. it was much more ornate than the one i ve seen. do these banjos vary a lot in construction / materials from model to model? i dont want to pay a lot extra for fancy inlays etc. the one i was looking at was from a reputable dealer recommended elsewhere on this site, selling at $500.
i ve seen a little wonder which is already in the uk, selling for £425, seller says 'straight neck, little fret wear' but just average condition. haven't ever played one of these, but they seem to have a good reputation.
by the time i ve paid for shipping costs / import duty i guess there wont be much in price between the two, so it's a difficult choice.
one thing i ve noticed is that all these old instruments seem to cost more this side of the pond. are these two a good choice in this price range, or should i be looking for more for my money? are there any other banjos i should consider?
thanks for the advice so far. anything else greatly appreciated.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by saltybrian
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
Brain, can you tell me who the reputable dealer is?
What are some decent dealers in the US? I'm not a big fan of eBay.
Unlike Brain I haven't played the Banjo before. Is there a rule of thumb for the number of frets? I don't know whether to look for the 16, 17 or 19.
Thanks from someone new.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by whangee
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
all vintage instruments are more expensive inside the EU because of (a) the shipping costs across the pond and (b) the imposition of import duty, VAT and a customs clearance charge on arrival in the EU. EU rules treat all working musical instruments as if they were brand new - irrespective of actual age and condition. the only exemption is for historic items that are not intended for use as musical instruments. crazy, but that's the rules .....
at that sort of money, i'd say you should also check out the modern Gold Tone shortscale tenors - £395 for either the "vega" style IT250 or the "gibson" style SS250 -both models with a 17 fret neck and very short (20") scale length. overall reliability and spares availability miles ahead of anything vintage and no set-up or intonation issues .. agreed, there is depreciation on new instruments - but the running costs/spares are way cheaper and you seldom get nasty surprises ..
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by teetotaller
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
teetotaller,
I understand your argument for getting a new instrument, but I respectfully disagree.
Older 17 fret instruments don't have the neck problems that 19 fret vintage instruments tend to have, specifically the bending or twisting of the neck. They do have problems with delamination, but that is fixable, even by an amateur. The new Gold Tone instruments don't have the value or the sound of the vintage ones and they still need some tweaking including new tuners and tailpeices. If you replace these items, they are not bad but I still like the sound of the vintage instruments.
In addition, for the same price basically, you are getting a better made banjo from the era in which banjos were prized.
Granted, you can get screwed if you end up with a twisted broken banjo, but if the dealer is honest, he or she will take it back or fix it. This is the advantage of working with a good dealer and if you live six kilometers from the North Pole, the way Brian seems to, it is a real help. The same is true of a new instrument from someone like Andybanjo, but the resale value of the instrument at a distance is much less.
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
thnks for advice teetot, though i reckon i m with mike on the old versus new argument.
do you knowif there's a simple formula for working out the import duty et al on an instrument coming into the eu?
mike - i take exception to the assumption that orkney is 6 km from the pole . it's much closer than that
btw, i ve been reading all the old tenor threads and your knowledge and advice is greatly appreciated thus far in my attempts to make an informed buy.
i m now tempted more by the orpheum as it is from a dealer as opposed to little wonder from unknown quantity.... but i ll prob hang on for a bit yet , and change my mind a few more times too- thrill of the chase and all that.
any thoughts on windsor tenors? missed out on one on ebay today at what seemed a bargain price
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by saltybrian
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
Has anyone any experience with May Bell tenors?
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by whangee
Re: vega little wonder versus orpheum no.1
Whangee,
"Maybelle" was a brand name from Slingerland who made, for the most part, modest banjos. The Maybelle brand came in a variety of price points and the most common were the entry level banjos with a simple tone ring. I have two of them and they are about the same as the Gold Tone 17 fret banjos mentioned above.
There are a few high end Maybelles (distunguished by top of the line appointments, a sophisticated tone ring system, marquetry, and good tuners, tailpiece, etc.) but they are relatively rare as they had to compete with very good banjos at that level and for the same money you could have a Paramount, Vega, Bacon, Gibson, Epiphone or a Weymann. I have played a few of these and while they are nice, they don't hold up as well and the sound is not pleasing to my ear.
On the other hand, if you get one of the entry level banjos for a good price, they are very playable and can be set up to sound pretty good if a little quiet. A similar Vega or Bacon banjo will be louder and hold their value.
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by mikeyes