Could anyone offer a history of Irish traditional music, especially whether "Irish" music as we know it today existed, and if so, what tunes were popular, in North America between 1740 and 1776?
Well, I don't have any paperwork right here, but it's pretty well known that the tunes started bouncing between Ireland and Scotland pretty early on. The tunes were unaccompanied, originally, so that depends on what you mean by "Irish music as we know it today" (there's an awful lot of different kinds of Irish music today, including traditional pure-drop, country and western, jazz, New Age such as Enya, rock, and fusions of any of the above and more, including Riverdance) -- any of Andy Irvine's bands, The Bothy Band, Planxty -- all those were pretty much trendsetting bands, especially the whole "driving percussive sections" thing. There's been a trend recently towards the "pure-drop" in recordings. Davy Spillane and Kevin Glackin just recorded one called "Forgotten Days" that's just the two of them, unaccompanied, and it's being called the purest-drop album of the year by many critics.
Whether you're of the school that the Irish gave the reel to the Scots or that the Scots gave it to the Irish (I think it's probably the latter, although who gave the reel to the Scots, you might ask?), the actual music we play as traditional now only goes back (insofar as authentication is concerned) as far as about (I think) 14th century, and that only a very few pieces. Most of the authenticated oldest tunes we have are about 16th century, I believe, and they're still fairly sparse, as far as I know.
If you check out the thread "Common Session Tunes", I believe Alice posted a list from the 1700's or so of then common session tunes; I believe those were in either London or Ireland, so Irish music in North America would have likely been a bit older still, but not by much.
You might also like to check out http://www.standingstones.com/musencyc.html for more info. If all else fails, try somebody like Phillippe Varlet or Verena Commins, both of whom have their degrees in enthomusicology, Irish in particular.
There is a new book by a guy called Vallely (any relation to Cilian Valleley, the uillean piper who played Sunday night sessions at 11th St bar in NYC and is currently touring with Lunasa, I wonder?). The book is about Irish trad. music and apparently has a lot of history. You can check it out at www.chiffandfipple.com. It's $50.00 and if you decide to buy it, please do through the link at chiff & fipple (to amazon.com), to support chiff & fipple, which is a great place.
It depends what we include as "trad". If we include pieces attributed to Turlough O'Carolan, for example, then they are known to date at least from C18th, perhaps earlier (some could be his adaptations of older tunes) - the tune, Tabhair Do Lamh (Give Me Your Hand), attributed to the harper, Rory Dall Ó Cathain, is even older.
If we are talking about dance tunes, they could be anything from 6 months to hundreds of years old - like it or not, tunes from Riverdance have made it into the odd session. The fact that tunes are being composed as I write is indicative of a living tradition.
Whilst a large proportion of tunes in the repertoires of current Irish Traditional players have been composed from the late C19th onwards, and many of them within living memory,
A great many tunes can be traced back much further. Many of these were originally adaptations of older harp pieces, marches or song airs. The history of these, in turn, is often tied up in mythology.
This is where I get out of my depth. Somebody better informed, please take over!
The Scots-Irish immigrated in droves in the 18th century, many settling in rural areas. That's probably why the Appalachian area has such a unique musical legacy. Check out the film "Song-catcher" if you can. I'd love to get the sound-track; does anyone have any information?
Many Irish from the south settled in Newfoundland.
The best book I've found on the subject is by Gearoid O hallmhurain ...published by the O"Brien press of Dublin; in case I haven't written his Gaelic name quite accurately : ) And it's titled (this is the easy part) A pocket history of Irish Traditional Music.
Thanks all for your comments on the age of Irish trad tunes. I fell out of the computer world for awhile, so sorry for not thanking you earlier. Thanks for the Philippe Varely recommendations. I'll ask him at my next lesson.
How old are trad tunes?
How old are trad tunes?
Could anyone offer a history of Irish traditional music, especially whether "Irish" music as we know it today existed, and if so, what tunes were popular, in North America between 1740 and 1776?
# Posted on October 10th 2001 by Rayzore
Re: How old are trad tunes?
Well, I don't have any paperwork right here, but it's pretty well known that the tunes started bouncing between Ireland and Scotland pretty early on. The tunes were unaccompanied, originally, so that depends on what you mean by "Irish music as we know it today" (there's an awful lot of different kinds of Irish music today, including traditional pure-drop, country and western, jazz, New Age such as Enya, rock, and fusions of any of the above and more, including Riverdance) -- any of Andy Irvine's bands, The Bothy Band, Planxty -- all those were pretty much trendsetting bands, especially the whole "driving percussive sections" thing. There's been a trend recently towards the "pure-drop" in recordings. Davy Spillane and Kevin Glackin just recorded one called "Forgotten Days" that's just the two of them, unaccompanied, and it's being called the purest-drop album of the year by many critics.
Whether you're of the school that the Irish gave the reel to the Scots or that the Scots gave it to the Irish (I think it's probably the latter, although who gave the reel to the Scots, you might ask?), the actual music we play as traditional now only goes back (insofar as authentication is concerned) as far as about (I think) 14th century, and that only a very few pieces. Most of the authenticated oldest tunes we have are about 16th century, I believe, and they're still fairly sparse, as far as I know.
If you check out the thread "Common Session Tunes", I believe Alice posted a list from the 1700's or so of then common session tunes; I believe those were in either London or Ireland, so Irish music in North America would have likely been a bit older still, but not by much.
You might also like to check out http://www.standingstones.com/musencyc.html for more info. If all else fails, try somebody like Phillippe Varlet or Verena Commins, both of whom have their degrees in enthomusicology, Irish in particular.
Zina
# Posted on October 10th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: How old are trad tunes?
There is a new book by a guy called Vallely (any relation to Cilian Valleley, the uillean piper who played Sunday night sessions at 11th St bar in NYC and is currently touring with Lunasa, I wonder?). The book is about Irish trad. music and apparently has a lot of history. You can check it out at www.chiffandfipple.com. It's $50.00 and if you decide to buy it, please do through the link at chiff & fipple (to amazon.com), to support chiff & fipple, which is a great place.
# Posted on October 10th 2001 by Bloomfield
Re: How old are trad tunes?
That's probably Fintan Vallely -- I'll go check the book out as soon as I have time...
Zina
# Posted on October 11th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: How old are trad tunes?
It depends what we include as "trad". If we include pieces attributed to Turlough O'Carolan, for example, then they are known to date at least from C18th, perhaps earlier (some could be his adaptations of older tunes) - the tune, Tabhair Do Lamh (Give Me Your Hand), attributed to the harper, Rory Dall Ó Cathain, is even older.
If we are talking about dance tunes, they could be anything from 6 months to hundreds of years old - like it or not, tunes from Riverdance have made it into the odd session. The fact that tunes are being composed as I write is indicative of a living tradition.
Whilst a large proportion of tunes in the repertoires of current Irish Traditional players have been composed from the late C19th onwards, and many of them within living memory,
A great many tunes can be traced back much further. Many of these were originally adaptations of older harp pieces, marches or song airs. The history of these, in turn, is often tied up in mythology.
This is where I get out of my depth. Somebody better informed, please take over!
# Posted on October 11th 2001 by ragaman
Re: How old are trad tunes?
"If all else fails, try somebody like Phillippe Varlet..." LMAO, Z!
Jeff
# Posted on October 11th 2001 by JeffK627
Re: How old are trad tunes?
*pursed lips* What are you trying to say, Jeff? *giggle*
zls
# Posted on October 11th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: How old are trad tunes?
The Scots-Irish immigrated in droves in the 18th century, many settling in rural areas. That's probably why the Appalachian area has such a unique musical legacy. Check out the film "Song-catcher" if you can. I'd love to get the sound-track; does anyone have any information?
Many Irish from the south settled in Newfoundland.
The best book I've found on the subject is by Gearoid O hallmhurain ...published by the O"Brien press of Dublin; in case I haven't written his Gaelic name quite accurately : ) And it's titled (this is the easy part) A pocket history of Irish Traditional Music.
# Posted on October 11th 2001 by Charlene
Re: How old are trad tunes?
Thanks all for your comments on the age of Irish trad tunes. I fell out of the computer world for awhile, so sorry for not thanking you earlier. Thanks for the Philippe Varely recommendations. I'll ask him at my next lesson.
# Posted on January 25th 2003 by Rayzore