I'm an American with Irish heritage and spent a year over in Ireland having a grand time playing tunes. I noticed so many other nationalities of people playing the music. It was lovely to see so many Japanese people as well as so many other Europeans, North Americans, etc sitting in sessions and knowing hundreds of Irish tunes. Fair play to ye all!
My question is this. Why don't other nationalities of people take pride in their own traditional music in the capacity that the Irish do? Why don't other nationalities take an interest in their own traditional music but instead devote themselves to Irish Trad? You can go anywhere in the world and find an Irish session, but why just Irish Trad? I know Irish trad Music is mighty and I personally love it myself. But if you are Japanese and live in Clare, do you also play Japanese traditional music as well? If you are Italian or German or whatever, do you play "your own" music as well? I know Germany lost a lot of it's own trad music during WW2, but I'm sure there had to be a few people who kept it alive.
I'm trying hard to be politically correct and not offend anyone. Bottom line: why not 'your own music'?
Not to be contrary but is it strange for a European to play Irish music but not so much for an American? I wonder do you play 'your own music', whatever that may be?
kilfarboy, that can be anything from old time to blues to cajun to Texas swing to gospel spirituals to Tejano to Hawaian songs! It depends on where you grow up and what your heritage is. There are families and communities in New York and Boston and Chicago that have played Irish music ever since their ancestors got off the boats. People like Brian Conway, for example---his family is steeped in Irish music.
Of course, most of the rest of us don't have any sort of pedigree and we just love the stuff...
I think in North America we are such a mixture of everyone - a melting pot, they say. I have a little Irish in me, but a whole lot of other genes...Scottish, German, Russian, Hungarian etc. I think I am typical.
But what about largely homogeneous nations? I bet Finnish, Bulgarian and Yiddish sessions would be great fun. But where are they?
First of all, Irish music has both charm and a social tradition of having sessions. Perhaps because the Irish emigrated to many countries, the music has also spread.
Then, too, the main instruments are very accessible--violin, flute, guitar, tin whistle, which is inexpensive. You don't have to learn any specialty instruments.
Although learning a simple tune may not be a huge stretch for a musician, even though I have heard people who play the notes, but not quite with the right swing--that takes practice. As one keeps playing you learn that the music can be quite complex in terms of style, ornamentation, types of tunes and much more, so no one ever needs to get bored with it.
That's right. I haven't been able to find any
Puerto-Rican/Jewish music. I mean what would that be? Klezmeir-Salsa? lol! Yiidish would be Klezmeir and maybe you'll find them in Jewish neighborhoods like Fairfax here in L.A. I just haven't had much interest in either Klezmeir (or Salsa for that matter) to find out.
I think it's great when someone from a particular ethnic background wants to learn something from a different ethnic background. Be it music, language, art etc.
I think other nationalities do take pride in their native arts and music, but the ever-present commercial profiteers consume all of the attention. Just because traditional music isn't on MTV, doesn't mean its not alive and well in all countries around the world. Thank goodness. In fact, we are probably blessed that it doesn't get that attention, lest it become spoiled, codified, or worse. Keep it wild, free, and faithful.
Around here in America, the Irish pubs are the ones that give us free beer when we play there, so naturally we play Irish music! And for some reason, if Scots run pubs, they don't flaunt their heritage, or promote Scottish music. While there are some drinking/eating/dancing establishments that promote other the traditional music cultures, for some reason, Irish ones are more prevalent.
I'm not at all sure that 'the Irish' do take pride in their national music. It strikes me that the majority couldn't care less, just as the majority of people in other parts of the world couldn't care less about *any* type of folk music.
I think we're also, so far in this thread, pre-supposing that ITM originated exclusively in Ireland and is exclusively Irish. In fact, it developed over many centuries alongside and, most of the time, as part of, the wider folk music of the British Isles. I know that what we think of as ITM is recognisably Irish *now*, but, until quite recently, there would have been gradations of both style and repertoire - and a huge amount of crossover - throughout the four kingdoms.
I think Jewish Klezmer music diminished for a time because it wasn't cool - it was associated with life in European or Russian ghettoes that emigrants to the USA, to Israel also, wanted to put behind them; and many of its practitioners will have been killed by the Nazis. Same applies to Yiddish. But there is a new interest in both. I imagine though that much, though not all, Klezmer is played in exclusively Jewish environments.
The northern Jews (Ashkenazim) spoke Yiddish and played Klezmer; the southern ones (Sephardim), at any rate those from Spain, spoke Ladino and had a more Spanish / Moorish / Arabic style of music. The Burning Bush Ensemble has produced pleasant albums with examples from both traditions.
Well, this is just my opinion, but why do some people like jazz, others rock, and some hip hop? Could it be that its just a matter of preference? I'm German and Italian, but I hate German polkas. Anyway- the only reason why anybody should play a type of music should be because they like it. They shouldn't feel obligated to play it because it belongs to their country.
I assume they do so in the curious little hilltop town of Safed in Israel, which is quite taken over by a big Klezmer festival every summer. (It was a war zone last year. I went there in 2000 - not at festival time.)
jane, i think that traditional music is alive and well in cultures around the globe. one of the years i attended the willy clancy week, the marathon end-of-week concert even featured a japanese folk-dance group in traditional kimonos.....the "session" phenom may not be a universal to many cultures, but traditional music is alive and well in places like scandinavia, the middle east, eastern europe, etc---at least, not much less than in ireland where, though the itm scene there seems like paradise to visitors, the fact is that the great majority of the irish population have little to no interest in traditional music. they're into c&w, rock, hip-hop, etc! for a wonderful look at cross-cultural musical interests, i highly recommend roddy doyle's very funny novel "the commitments" and the movie based on it (but not the dopey touring band spun off from it later) about a bunch of kids from a working-class dublin suburb who start a soul/r&b band......we are lucky enough to live at a point in history where we're not bound to follow interests just because they are from our race, ethnicity, country, or religion......in my city we have serious itm players from asian, african-american and other backgrounds, not to mention a new york jew who came out here, fell for mariachi music, and never looked back! the guy wears the clothes, lives in the neighborhood, studied the music for years and gigs as a mariachi all over the city! arrrrrrrrrriva!
Not to be contrary but is it strange for a European to play Irish music but not so much for an American?
To tighten up the question: Is is strange for a (non-Irish) European to play Irish music but not so much for Americans of Irish heritage to play their own ethnic Irish musical tradition which, although transplanted, has had an organic and influential presence in their country for at least 160 years?
No, not strange, but perhaps calling for more of an explanation. Whereas the latter seems equivalent to what may happen in Ireland all the time. And at last national census, the population of Irish Americans stood at around 34 million.
I saw "The Commitments" and did find it funny - especially the small boy's line when about to put his horse in the lift of a block of flats ("The stairs would kill it!..")-
mtguru, though i'm not part of the "needing an explanation" faction, i do find one part of your last post really interesting---i think it is fascinating how white americans are not thought of has having an "ethnic" heritage....my theory is that this came about first by way of white immigrants and their descendants assimilating by dissassociating themselves from that word and attaching the term "ethnic" only to people of color (though the word has no racial or skin-color connotation whatsoever)......we're "just people," everybody with darker skin is "ethnic".........today, many white americans still bristle at the idea of being "ethnic," and many people of color jeer at the idea of white people having "ethnic music" or "ethnic backgrounds." it's sad, and silly......we're all both---all "just people" and we all have "ethnic heritage."
nicholas, mariachi music is a traditional mexican dance, music genre featuring fiddles, guitars, and a brass section, usually trumpet(s)....usually shakers. linda rondstadt gave it a shot of "riverdance" style world-music fame in the 1990s with a tour centered on her record, "canciones de mi padre." not to be confused with my favorite traditional mexican genre of all "cojunto," which features fiddles & accordions.....much like itm and other roots music forms, many mariachi and conjunto masters come from musical families where the tradition is passed down and many family members play....it is super-fun, wonderful music...
My family are Easter European Jewish immigrants to the US, on all sides. As a kid I was really in to old time music, not hearing ITM until college years (in a local session at first, then recordings). Not hearing good Klezmer either, for that matter. There's lots of good Kelzmer around now; locally and everywhere it seems (nicholas, I've read about a huge Jewish music festival in Poland - strange, according to articles I've read, as all the Jews in that area were killed or fled during WWII).
But with my limited grown-up time for music now, Irish music wins out for me - no contest. Can't explain it, I just love it. And learning about the culture and land that produced the music, and seeking out the source (whether it be Cork or Chicago) seems natural. I don't see how this would be different for someone from San Francisco or Sao Paolo. Anyine reading this board will understand, surely.
ceemonster, I agree. But it's understandable if you consider that a key aspect of American intellectual policy from the beginning has been to forge a national identity from diverse and constantly renewed immigrant populations. Hence the importance of officially encouraging a sense of shared Americanism over ethnic identification among the majority population. Of course, racialism poisoned that well from the beginning, but served as one more "us versus them" marker to bind European Americans together in a shared identity. Interestingly, it's no coincidence that the rapid rise in interest in ethnic identity of all kinds in the 60s and 70s, and the explosion of interest in ethnic and regional musical diversity, coincided with the successes of the civil rights movement. When faced with the breakdown of the myth of the one big happy melting pot, it became OK to be ethnic again. And that's a story that yet to have the final chapter written.
With regard to German folk music, it unfortunately acquired an smear by association, the Nazi Party in the 30's used it as part of encouragement for everyone to be patriotic Germans; hence when singers like Collin Wilkie and Shirley Hart were busking round Germany in the '60s and '70s, they discovered that old German folk songs would be derided by the older people, who remembered them being used in the '30s, as "Nazi songs", even though they were much older than the Nazi era.
"....the population of Irish Americans stood at around 34 million." - Aye & 33.5 million of them listen to that other popular form of Traditional American Music - *Country Music*, wall to wall, all week long ..... & adopt American Cowboy accents to sing along to it!!
I wonder how many German or Japanese Music sessions there are in Clare, anyway?
It's a dangerous topic this. Ethnicity, heritage, genes etc. I saw an article recently where it was discovered that there is not a shred of difference between Irish and English dna. I'm worried by MTGuru's "myth of the one big happy melting pot" and it being "OK to be ethnic again". The genetic melting pot is no myth, happy or not. So it's very important to view any heritage you may think as yours purely in terms of the direct contact you have with it, not in terms of any right you feel you may have to it merely because of ancestry.
The important point to remember is that the Irish do not own Traditional Irish Music, And they do not own any rights to to it. No one can ever own it, and any rights can only come from dedicated exposure and practice.
American old-timey music and bluegrass are also played in many places around the world, in casual jams similar in some ways to Irish sessions. You can in fact find such jams in Europe (including Ireland and the UK) and Asia, as well as all over North America.
Llig sounds like you want to be Irish.If Irish music did nt belong to the Irish it would be just called MUSIC.Different people can have different reasons to take pride in Irish music e.g. the name of a tune could be called after a place that is close to someones heart.
One reason why Irish music is so strong is because it was banned and its only human nature if you can't have something you want it more.A second reason is some clever people that emigrated deciede start writing tunes down and recording them so every one had access alot of other cultures did nt do this .
"If Irish music did nt belong to the Irish it would be just called MUSIC."
That is just playing with words. On a tight definition, Irish music would have to be played in Ireland (and nowhere else) by Irish people (and noone else) and listened to by Irish people (and noone else). But such a tight definition would be silly.
The *genre* of music we know as ITM does not - and cannot - "belong" to anyone. It is associated with Ireland in various ways, which is why we use the name, but it is played by people of many nations, including of course many Americans, and enjoyed by people of many nations.
As has been pointed out, it did not *originate* in Ireland - it is just a particular flavour of the music of the British Isles and parts of Europe. And it survived better than many others, not because it was banned, but because it was encouraged by people like the Gaelic League, when, around the beginning of last century, many Irish people sought to develop a sense of being a separate nation.
Sure, llig, it's a touchy subject that can trigger passions. And mind, it's not "my" myth -- I'm not endorsing any particular truth, just describing prevailing and changing social perceptions and motives in one time and place. Genetics tests for allowed interest in a particular music (or any human endeavor) are obviously specious and pernicious. But perceived identity can be real. And addressing only one of kilfarboy's points, the interest of Irish Americans in ITM is very much the kind of thing supported by trends in American culture for the past several decades. I left the issue of why others may also be drawn to ITM unaddressed.
The shared DNA pool of Ireland and Britain goes to an increasingly accepted view of the repopulation of Atlantic Europe from glacial refuges, probably Iberian, following the last glacial maximum around 25000 BCE. Interesting stuff, but hardly relevant pro or con (or at least it shouldn't be) to cultural questions like the current topic -- which I believe was your point, too.
I'm from Nfld and we have a lot of our own traditional music. Much of it though has to do with many Nflders having Irish descent and the sound has been passed down.
St. John's, The Capital of Nfld is said to have the most pubs per capita than any City on the planet. And the East coast music, (Cape Breton, Novs Scotia, and Nfld) along with the Irish stuff is amazing.
Interesting topic! By nationality, I'm Swiss-American (grew up in both places), and yet, I wouldn't feel any more (or less) authentic than I do playing ITM if I were to play Swiss accordion music or American old-time. In fact, learning old-time or blues would take just as much effort and have just as little to do with my heritage as learning ITM does.
I don't think musical heritage is dictated by ancestry, it's dictated by what one grows up hearing (which happened to be European classical music, for me). And in the end, what matters is what feels most authentic to the musician--in my case, ITM fulfills my musical needs. Finding the right vehicle for musical expression isn't inherently tied to nationality or ethnicity.
"One reason why Irish music is so strong is because it was banned and its only human nature if you can't have something you want it more."
But the present strength of Irish music comes really from the revival, before which it was, by repute, pretty weak, though I accept it may have been strong in some localised areas. And it hadn't been 'banned' for an awful long time by then ...
Also, in connection with your second point, saint, English music, Welsh music, Scots music and, for all I know, lots of other types of music as well, have oodles and oodles of transcribed tunes, songs etc etc. It's just that not so many people are interested enough to find them and play them.
My point being that those sorts of views (it's because of oppression, or it's because of historic pride shown by Irishmen in the past) *don't* actually explain the success (=popularity) of ITM. I think it's explained by the fact that it's just good music.
Irish music has evolved over time. If it had not it would not be as popular as it is. Other traditional musics that strive for continuity and keeping everything the same aren't as popular because of it. I'm not saying it's therefore wrong, but I think it may partially explain the situation.
I think this music belongs to the players who take it seriously enough to play it well, the ones who make the effort of learning it from musicians who really have it and so become part of the continuity that comes with the 'traditional' .
I don't go for the genetic element, certainly if it comes from Americans who desperately seem to need something to identify with while to everybody else they are just 'American' (which is fine, everybody is who he/she is but it strikes me as somehow strange to hear people who are so apparently from a particular place and culture, no matter where there grandmothers came from, proclaim they are 'Irish' and assuming it's strange for 'others' to play this music).
In England, pub songs around the piano survived well into my early drinking years in the 60's and 70's but not much evidence of them now. I think this was the prevalent English folk culture - everyone knew the words and a great time was had. We are now generally seeing the death-throes of the pub as a social meeting ground where music is made by and for the clientele, except - a short walk away for me (luckily) - two drinking establishments where you can drop in and play tunes. This is our local live music, and it is Irish in origin, God bless the Irish landlord (and landlady) because without them it wouldn't happen! But you don't need to be Irish to play it.
The English traditional music session scene is alive and well and threatened only by the actions of the government in making it hard to play any kind of live music in pubs and the Performing Rights Society in attempting to get royalties for music played in sessions. It isn't commercial so it isn't exported but it is alive and well and dancing.
All traditional music is a minority interest compared to other kinds of music, and all live music is under threat from commercial organisations who want people to be passive paying customers not active playing musicians.
Ireland seems to have got it right at the moment; lots of brilliant players who can make / supplement a living by it, lots of enthusiasts visiting, but with the edge and freedom from complete gobble-up by big interests that goes with being a minority pursuit. If all the uninterested populace started devoting themselves to ITM tomorrow, face it, the country would grind to a halt!
As an extension to the piano player, singalong style of entertainment, there used to be an old Victorian-style pub on the Isle of Dogs (London Docklands area) that specialised in music hall nights..
The pub was owned by the late Dan Farson and I think Roy Hudd had some involvement in it.
It was pure singalong and audience participation - very well done and a great night out if you like that kind of thing.
It was all quite camp with plenty of cross-dressers and some of the artistes were not quite the gender you might have thought they were (funny how that section of society are so attracted to nostalgia), but that added to the fun of it all.
I suppose it has all been knocked down now and turned into trendy restaurants with menus in french.
Apart from a lot of tunes being played as ITM are not from Ireland (Northumbrian and Scottish being the other two major contributions)
I agree with the previous comments about the performing rights society mafia .At one point they wanted to charge me for playing my own music for my own dance class.
Work that one out.
The is a theory, not mine but seems to be fair to me, that nations who were oppressed have retained their national identity through folk song and dance far more than the nations who oppressed others. Hence the Irish and Scots have thriving folk cultures that are accepted by all of the nation whereas in England our folk culture is looked down on.
"Sounds like I want to be Irish"? Saint, I'm not surprised you have problems assimilating, seeings as you seem to have an uncanny ability to spectacularly get the wrong end of the stick.
Who deciedes which side is the wrong side of the stick and thank for calling me spectacular . Goldfrog I agree oppression also adds to the interest . I think it s great that so many people from all over the world play itm for what ever reason but my reason for loving Irish music is simple . I love my culture (the Irish culture) and Irish music is a big part of that and no one can take that away. I also have huge respect for Northumbrian and Scotish music because it is steeped in culture and even though I play it I would never try to take it away from them . What is it about SOME of ye Brits ye always want to take things away from people....Land ,music etc.
We've had a lot of threads about why Irish traditional music is so universal (eg played in Japan, Moscow, Germany, North America .... oops I nearly forgot the UK!) and also whether you have to be born on the island to play it properly. I think today's Comhaltas clip from the North American convention where all these non-Irish born musicians play with such heart, vigour and lift (see http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_203_6_canadian_session/) says it all. Irish music is a gift from the Almighty to be played and enjoyed by all who have the inclination, whoever and wherever they may be.
Bannerman I agree with that 100% . But saying Irish music does nt belong to the Irish is a bit like saying Chienese food has nothing got to do with China because it eaten all over the world.
But how can music "belong" to anybody ?
(Unless you´re talking about manuscripts)
Surely the word "belong" implies property rights and, as far as I know, there are no such rights attached to the playing of, or listening to, irish music.
I should admit Saint that I hadn't read all the posts here and had in no way intended to take sides with any point of view. By quickly scanning the comments I thought we were getting into the territory of "who can and who can't play trad" which is why I decided to post. However, on the separate question of "what is trad?" I would agree that it needs to be seen in its context as deriving from Irish history and culture and we must never lose sight of its past and practitioners (collectors, composers, performers,etc) to to really apreciate and enjoy it. To people who oppose this point of view and are quite happy playing "Gan Ainms", then this is their choice but I feel they are missing out on the full experience of what is a very rich tradition.
How can music 'belong' to anybody. Well, if in the case of traditional music it is handed on (or down, or up as the case may be) it is handed from the care of one person, generation or whatever you want to call it, to the next one. To care for and to pass on eventually. In that sense it belongs to those who received it and the manner and culture that (here it is again) belongs to it. It's a manner of speaking ofcourse but does it belong to the masses that don't care a rat's ass about it. I doubt it somehow.
It's a gift you know, something that is given to you and in that sense you do take possession of it (as it takes possession of yourself in a lot of cases). But it is for anyone to accept that gift and prove worthy of it.
I agree with all that you say, Kilfarboy, but I was taking issue with what I believed to be Saint´s use of the word "belong" i.e. foreigners (principally the English) taking and appropriating the music that belongs to the Irish.
I don´t agree with this possessive attitude, but I can see where Saint is coming from.
He was probably prompted to make his remarks after reading some of the comments earlier on in the thread that lumped together Irish, Scottish and English folk music all into one big original pot, with the implication that there wasn´t really much difference between any of them at the beginning and that Irish music became popular because of luck and good marketing.
I detect a whiff of jealousy in this way of thinking.
There´s nothing wrong with English folk music, which is rich and varied, but comparisons just don´t work.
You can only say what you prefer listening to and playing.
Ha Ha that old ITM bubble of self importance rears it's ugly head again!
World Population - 6.6 Billion
North America & Europe = less than 20%
Please don't imagine for one second that ITM is actually played by more people than any other form of traditional music.
e.g. would anyone like to estimate how many traditional musicians there are in Asia, or Africa?
Catch yourselves on guys.
Anyway, *McDonalds* are perhaps more widespread than any other *restaurant* Worldwide ........... so does that automatically mean that they serve the best food?
Hip Hop & Country Music may well be the most popular forms of music in the Western World - but does that automatically make them - the best?
Surely the idea of someone actually *owning* music is just pure BALONEY .... isn't it?
Come on, this has to be a wind-up!
Ownership:
“Vedanta ( Indian spiritual science ) believes that the feeling of ownership is an illusion, which remains with oneself as long as one considers oneself as separate from the Universe.
When one understands the fundamental reality that there is only one entity called the Universe, there is no need for ownership and one gets rid of this illusion.”
Ah, but you can own it. It's the gift that keeps on giving. When you give it away, you still own it. When someone takes it from you, you still own it. Magic.
Here in Ottawa we have a Klezmer session. It has been running Sundays 2 to 4 pm at The Ottawa Bagel Shop on Wellington St. for three years. Depending on who shows up Russian ,Hungarian or Israeli tunes also get played.
There is also a long running Klezmer session in Manchester. http://www.manchesterklezmer.org/index.html
I reacted to "The important point to remember is that the Irish do not own Traditional Irish Music, And they do not own any rights to to it". I don t like this statement and the wording of it . Does this mean that a part of my culture(the music) does nt belong to me .Secondly I know some people don t understand refering to Ireland as part of the British Isles can be insulting to some of us. I ll say it I think the music should belong or be owned by everyone all over the world including the Irish . As I keep saying on this site I believe in equality and I don't like Elitism so let every on join in ,own and have rights to the music.
If a man writes a tune but lets nobody else hear it, then perhaps he owns it ... but in that state it is absolutely worthless in *Traditional* terms.
So, he lets others hear it & in the hearing of it they like it & they learn it, & so it is passed into the tradition, but it no longer belongs to him any more ............... nor does it belong to anyone else either.
It's a bit like Love I suppose ..... do any of us actually own the love we have for our nearest & dearest. Would we like to, or could we, frame it, or bottle it, or hold it in a cage & exhibit it?
No, I believe some things are above ownership .... it's part of their charm!
Responding to one of points in the original post, I would add that one of the reasons nationalities don't take pride in their own traditional music is education. I'm a product of public education in the US. I had no knowledge of Old Time music until I found it on my own later in life. There are probably prejudicial and regional reasons for those decisions being made which don't need to be part of this topic.
As mentioned somewhere above, Irish music connects with me at a level deeper than hearing only. Don't know how to describe it, really. I do get the same feeling with music from Scotland and the Shetlands, and I know Scotland is working to get a handle on their tradtional music through the TSMA.
On thing that has not been mentioned, is the association of traditional music and dance. When I see a strong music scene (Old Time, Irish, etc.), it is usually closely connected with dances (Contras, squares, etc.). I think it's community that keeps the tradition going, not necessarily the musicans alone.
One other thought I have that makes ITM so great, is with their history. Everyone can easily associate themselves with the underdog, and many times Ireland has been in that position. Doing their best to deal with things that were forced upon them, be it Britain or God. But through the pains, persecutions and exiles of these brave Irish people, we have strong Irish communities all over the world, and their music to go with it.
I don't know,
Many of these arguments have isolated the music as an entity unto itself bereft of any social context outside of a pub session making it appear transplantable and modular. Jigs and reels are a significant aspect of music as it relates to Irish people but by no means does it end there. There is no social occasion in Conamara for example that doesn't involve a musician who plays traditional music, Irish traditional music, not Scottish, English, Bangladeshi or whatever. Everything from a few pints in the local after the Parish meeting to christenings, football teams celebrating a cup win and so on. Local musicians are celebrated for their skill in excelling at Irish music, not music in general and are a source of pride in the community being an extension of that community and indivisible from it. I often think that people assume they have achieved cultural heights by establishing a session at their local in, say, Bloomington Illinois but if that's where it starts and stops it means nothing. Who sings the funeral songs at your aunties wake ? Who writes the tune that celebrates your neighbour's horse coming in at the local derby ? Who sings your baby to sleep with ancient Gaelic nonsense rhymes? In a very real way Irish music in North America has become commodified (in attempting to book a well known fiddler for a festival I was well and truly informed that he doesn't get out of bed for less than $2000 for the w/e, beginning and end of conversation), in England it can be more often than not used as a cultural identifier, I might be born in England but my music is Irish, got it ?
Another point that I've been thinking about is the association of the session with the spread of the "irish pub" around the world. How much music was in your own area before the "irish pub" came along ? How much does the "irish pub" justify itself with an "irish session" ? These are the thoughts that occupy my very fuzzy mind as I wake up to another freezing cold day in Toronto made somewhat palatable by giving Nuala Kennedy's new cd a spin over a cup of tea.
There were three "Irish pubs" in Durham (UK); but to mix metaphors, the commercial green tide had bitten off more than it could chew when it took on Durham: there is now only one. I go there for good cheap Irish stew. On Saturday nights they have bands, but not wanting to queue for ages to get in I don't know what they are like. Standard pub rock I assume. None of these pubs ever had sessions as far as I know - though ghostly (and not very inspiring) Irish tunes can sometimes be heard coming from a speaker in the surviving establishment.
(Durham itself has been pretty amenable to sessions / singarounds / folk clubs over the years.)
I agree with Patkiwi that you can't separate music from the (other elements of the) culture, it's the continuity that is part and parcel of 'traditional'. I mean you don't become a traditional musician by learning tunes from off the internet and playing them with other people who have done the same.
Most German-American societies have not one but a network of choruses. German folksongs and religious music are typically what they sing. There are also dance groups and polka bands that we kind of put up with once or twice a year at German-American Day, Oktoberfest, and the like >wg<.
In G-A families, it's common for one or several people to play instruments, and most people I know who grew up in the same background I did had at least the chance to take music lessons. I never had any pressure put on me to play music by German composers, and I'm not aware that others did. Church congregations that are largely G-A typically have a thriving music program. The church I grew up in performed The St. Matthew Passion every other year.
I have been wondering about this one a lot lately. As cathrynb and others have noted, certain communities have managed to hang on to a music tradition in spite of the pressures of life to give it up and become passive consummers.
I think, patkiwi, that the cultural context angle is very important. Quite a few people recognize the integral part that music plays in some communities, and we want some of that. For some, it means being satisfied with the local fake irish pub (enough with the corned beef, thank you) or Daniel O'Whatshisname warbling away during Public Broadcasting pledge week. But most people have the idea that learning to play an instrument after you graduate from high school is just too weird for them; it is eccentric. And so those who want to play with others have to choose from what has survived. Dance music tends to survive. In my neck of the woods, I can choose between Irish trad, Scottish trad, old time, bluegrass, cowboy and jazz music communities. Pretty good for living in the sticks. And these music styles all have historic roots in the area (except for the jazz players, and I hear that they are all big Lunasa fans......nyuk nyuk nyuk). But the people I play with don't really come from any of those traditions. They chose it because they love it; who knows where the need to play it came from? I can at least claim an Irish great grandfather, but no one in my family played music; I am the eccentric one. I grew up listening to the Beatles on WLS in Chicago with a significant detour through European classical music as a teenager. So where did my brain get hijacked?
I'm sorry if I offended you, saint, in using the term 'the British Isles'. I was aware of the connotations, but I don't know of another phrase that describes the geographical area I wanted to refer to. And the fact is that the cultures of all four nations have been intimately connected over a long period of time (millennia at least), and this cultural connection persisted despite the periodic oppression of one or more parts of that geographical group by one or more parts of the rest. Maybe we need a better, and less offensive term, than British Isles, but I feel it should be one that reflects the shared heritage.
"There is no social occasion in Conamara for example that doesn't involve a musician who plays traditional music, Irish traditional music, not Scottish, English, Bangladeshi or whatever." This is just sentimental nonsense. Ireland has developed, just like everywhere else has developed. Ireland has technology, like everywhere else. There are discos in Connemara, there are Country and Western nights - I haven't been to that part of Ireland for a while, but I would expect there are all sorts of other musical and social events as well - there always used to be in the past ...
"The fantastically amazing Roundstone Summerfest is winding its way back this August for another 4 days of fun and craic! Traditional Irish music, Rock, Pop, Bluegrass, Jazz and Roots. Comedy, Beat-on-the-Street, Village Sports and much much more!"
Sounds like a regular festival virtually anywhere in Ireland, England, Wales or Scotland.
Mind you, I'm not saying you don't get fantastic traditional Irish music in many parts of Ireland, for my taste, especially in the West. In fact, I've argued before on this site that you don't really get it anywhere else ... But we shouldn't take on some sentimental pretence that there is some Irish utopia where everyone is deeply involved in traditional Irish music, to the exclusion of anything else. That strikes me as insulting - Ireland exists in the 21st century, just like everywhere else.
Well, I've only just joined this thread after coming back from a great Melave Malka with a very religious Jewish family. A Melave Malka is a sort of after-Sabbath party with a lot of singing and storytelling, and if anyone plays an instrument, they bring it along, and there'll be some music. So naturally, I brought my fiddle, and it turned out someone else had as well. Now this guy had only recently started playing, so he was shaky, but he had a very good ear, and he knew lots of niggunim (wordless songs). So, the upshot was that he taught me some niggunim, and I gave him a few fiddle-playing tips. Very nice. But by far, the main focus of the evening was not that, but the food, the singing, the storytelling. And most of all, the idle chat.
I think the reason Irish music has spread so much more widely than Klezmer and other types of folk music is that the Music is the biggest, although by no means only, part of Irish culture, and when you get a concentration of Irish culture - in the pub - the Music will play a lead role. In Jewish culture at least, and I suspect in other cultures as well, music will play a part, bu not as big a part as in Irish.
And to answer your question Jane: Yes, other people do play their own music as well.
I don't think there is anything wrong with a bit of nostalgia - not letting go of, or celebrating, links with the past. I think it is particularly important to some members of oppressed Peoples around the world. Many humans feel a need to connect with the past in order to understand who they are today. If connections to family, tradition and culture are broken, by force or unfortunate circumstances, there is a sadness which some people can never overcome, and the hurt can last for generations and generations. People don't know who they are or from where they have come. Traditional musics and cultures have a very important role to play in self identity, whatever the circumstance and situation globally and through time.
We on the auld yellaboard turn to Irish Traditional Music for identity - and it really really does it fer us. If we didn't love it we wouldn't be here chatting in cyberspace now would we? (rhetorical)
I cannot blame some of the youth of today for encompasing pop culture rap hiphop grung whatever (I don't understand it at all, but what do I know, I'm ancient in their eyes) as so many of them do - as so many of us did in our youth. It is what inspires them now - turns them on, makes them feel alive and part of a community. Is this really any different to traditional communities? The communities are just broader, more global, as this thesession.org community is.
It seems to me that today's pop culture will be the nostalgia of tomorrow. Yet another tradition that people can turn to or not if they want to. Its all part of the evolving evolution of things. Nothing, quite literally, stays the same, its simply that some things change much quicker or slower than others.
Sooo, is it bad to be clinging to traditional forms of music, Irish or other? "No, of course not." If it helps people understand or define themselves for whatever reason, it can only be benefitial.
But, at the same time, any approach to any traditional culture should be a reverent one, which doesn't diss on those whose foundations are solidly grounded in the culture as it is evolving.
Enough of this. The day is grand. I just went out into the backyard, to be met by the fragrance of a ready Yorkshire pud wafting on the breeze - roast dinner - utopia - not mine unfortunately - Happy Easter to you all.
Two things:
"We on the auld yellaboard turn to Irish Traditional Music for identity"
I don't. My identity, whatever that is, is Anlgo/European, and my strong connections with Ireland are part of that. But I don't want to use the music for the purposes of identity.
"How can music 'belong' to anybody. Well, if in the case of traditional music it is handed on (or down, or up as the case may be) it is handed from the care of one person, generation or whatever you want to call it, to the next one."
That seems to me like a good summary of how I understand the word "traditional". But the music we now call ITM is what I would call a "genre". Many of the people who play it are not Irish but are English, American etc., and most of those who play it (I strongly suspect - figures would be hard to get) did not learn it in the traditional way that kilfarboy describes. In most cases we did not learn it from our parents, uncles or leading musicians of the townland - we learnt it from the radio, recordings, CDs, printed tune collections, ABC files, mates at a nearby generic session, workshops with professionals. I don't mean for a moment to suggest that there is anything wrong with that - the opportunities we have in today's world are huge, and people can learn more with greater ease than in the past. But it's not strictly "traditional" any more than it's strictly "Irish" - these are just useful identifiers to distinguish it from, say, Scottish or English styles of music, or many of the more popular kinds of Irish music like C&W, rock, pop and so on.
Irish Traditional Music is a useful label, but most of what we do under that label is neither strictly Irish nor was it transmitted within a tradition.
Did I mention utopia? If I did, it was in order to suggest that the romantic picture of the rural idyll where everyone is involved in traditional music round a turf fire is just that: romantic. I.E. a story.
Byt the way, for the avoidance of doubt, I think Ireland is a truly magical place. This seems to have something to do with the place itself, but also to do with the warmth of its people, and the very high level of culture in Ireland. But that extends way beyond traditional music ...
Hell of a lot of romancic nonsence posted on this thread. I can dismiss this as mere twaddle, (not from benhall, charles d, pt and some others though). But if I met someone who had the attitude, "I might be born in England but my music is Irish, got it?" I'd be tempted to get angry.
I would strongly disagree with Mr Dodgon there. I firmly believe you will never ever get to the core of this music if you don't sit down with people who have it, really have it , and acquire it in the 'traditional' way (which in itself if a defining characteristic of a traditional music/musician).
This music is not a stand alone thing as put forward in this discussion before, it is part of a culture, and that is before I start on the old people and places malarkey.
Believing you can have it away from all that and get it off the internet, from books and CDs is either deluding yourself, or not realising what is really at the core of it and so missing out on something very vital to it.
And don't try dismiss what I see around me all the time as 'romantic nonsense', there's romantic nonsense of course but this is not it.
The English, Scottish, Irish, Northumbrian, Shetland, Norwegian, Breton (ie from the Brittany in France) and Cape Breton traditional musics are all linked in one way or another. Largely due to either geographical proximity or the dispersion of peoples from one area to another. They also all are forms of functional music, much of which was to provide social interaction through the medium of dance.
These days as far more people can play than can dance that social interaction is waning, and the one whereby we all sit in the pub and get drunk then go home and pontificate with people that we never will meet and have little in common with over the internet is growing.
I've deliberately avoided the phrase "ITM" in any of my posts here because I don't accept the term. It lingers between the macroscopic (whereby one would have to accept that the links between all the areas I listed initially create an entity) and the microscopic (where one would for example regard the Scottish Border style and the Highland fiddle style as differentiable). To try define in terms of political boundaries which have existed only since either 1916 or 1922 (depending on how one looks at it) seems futile unless the perpose is self-serving.
Why not just be happy being a member of your own tradition and work on building that up to be as strong as possible in your lifetime, and arm the next generations to carry it on?
I know this is kind of out of the blue, but I just wanted to firmly agree with a comment posted earlier. I'm from Newfoundland, Canada, and at the sessions here it seems that it's never exclusively Irish music being played. In fact, it would very strange to go to a session and not here some Newfoundland/Maratime tunes as well as the Irish ones. So as much as we can all enjoy the Irish tunes we play 'our own music' too.
"The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive." To quote Jeremy on the home page of thesession.org.
If you are not into keeping traditional Irish music alive, what are you doing on this site? Granted, this site is, thanks to Jeremy, a global one, but the focus is keeping traditional Irish music alive. Any approach to Irish traditional Music, or any other traditional music from anywhere around the world, should be respectful of the culture from which the music has sprung. Not romantic twaddle. Simple good manners.
And thank you Kilfaboy, because those people from outside the culture (and that includes me) should be mindful not to diss on those people who live and breathe the tradition. Just because the music has been shared globally does not make it any less part of the rich and diverse culture of people like yourself.
"Twaddle", Mr Mihcael Gill, is actually my word, for which I have a copyright on the yellaboard and you are soooo full of it yerself man. You have self appointed yourself as the authority on what is "right" and "wrong" in the playing of Irish traditional music - and this is as an Englishman from yer little enclave in Scotland. Your opinion, uncouth and unhelpful, as it usually is, is not respectful of anyone who does not lick yer boots.
Well, couldn't resist it. Made myself a Yorkshire pud mindful of the tradition from whence it came then I ate a chocolate Easter egg mindful of the culture from whence chocolate came, drank a cup of coffee mindfull etc etc. Do I care if you think it romantic twaddle? Not one iota.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. What's to say you can't learn Irish music from CDs, books etc.? I've got to admit, learning straight from someone who knows exactly what they're doing is good, but not essential. You don't need to be shown everything about the music by a master to appreciate it and enjoy playing it. I mean, Eric Clapton was never taught guitar by a master and he's one of the best guitarists in the world. So why would you need to be taught in the traditional way to play trad. music and to have a deep understanding of it. Not that I'm an expert of any sort in this kind of thing, that's just my opinion, and no offence to anyone who believes otherwise,
all the best everyone,
Dan
Sorry, I meant to point out in that comment that Eric Clapton is one of the best blues guitarists of all time, even though everything he learned came from recordings (made in a foreign country by people of a different culture than himself) rather than blues masters. Sorry about that, I was kind of distracted half-way through that sentence. :P
I am saying that you'll missing some essential things at the very core of Irish music if you learn it away from where it lives and without interaction with the culture that moves it. The problem is, those who do will never know what is missing so how to explain it?
Whoa, whoa, whoa (?). Well, no, you can't learn this music from from CDs, books etc.
The chief reason is variation. Books, of course, are suctsictley useless for this. And CDs are limited because of the tradition of only playing the tune three times
You have to play regularly with people who know the music.
So, and I agree, you have to learn the music where it lives.
And the most important point in this thread is that it doesn't only live in Ireland
Well, some things, in all honesty, like ornamentation and certain regional styles of playing, can only best be learned through face to face instruction. However, if things are only learned this way, the "traditional" way, where's the room for the likes of Donal Lunny (who introduced the bouzouki into Irish traditional music) and other innovative traditional musicians. If it wasn't for people putting their own spin on Irish music because they were never taught to play it strictly one way and one way only, Irish music as we know it today would never exist. Just as the culture of a place is always changing, the music is always changing and with strict statements like "you can't learn this music from CDs, books etc." which allow little room for exception, the traditions can never change causing them to lose popularity. I think books/internet sites which try to teach the styles of playing are a brilliant way to keep the traditions alive and developping throughout the world and my hat is off to anyone who creates those sort of things, even if their work is not appreciated by those who are too wrapped up in doing things "right" to recognize the potential of these different styles of learning.
I can't really see internet sites 'teach' music very well. They can teach some technical aspects maybe. Anyway, I was going to say Donal Lunny had a thorough grounding in this music through his mother and the family's extended stays in the Donegal Gaeltacht of Ranafast (where his mother was from) where he also, at a very young age, developed close friendship with the O'Domnhail family (friends of his parents again, there you have a fair bit of social context you won't get through the internet or CDs) through whom he had first hand access to the music and traditions of the place.
Underestimating that, and believing he picked up a bouzouki and came out of nowhere is really foolish.
DannyM I wasn't saying you were suggesting DLunny came out of nowhere by the way but I don think some people here underestimate how rooted and connected the great musicians really are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_bouzouki please get your facts straight before talking crap dannym i provided a link so you can read up on the history of the irish bouzouki.
I don't think any crap was being handed out before you entered to be honest. Whatever you may want to think about it, Lunny pioneered playing styles and the new (flat) model of Irish bouzouki . Never mind that Moynihan was given a Greek bouzouki by Ronnie Drew earlier or that Lunny had to bum his first one off Irvine. I don't think he changed Irish music although he did change the way of accompaniment. When I think about traditional music I don't think about what bands etc are doing or what goes on on concert stages by the way.
To be honest, I've already read that article and the one on the Greek bouzouki front to back even though I'm not really sure how much I trust Wikipedia, but yeah...
I kinda think this whole thing gets back to the original topic of this thread, because where do you think the non-Irish people playing in sessions learned their music from? Their parents? It seems to me that, increasingly, people are (besides learning the odd thing from other people) learning everything they can in every way they can (internet, cds etc.) just because they can, and why wouldn't they?
Here in Southern Appalachia people get together to informally play music
quite frequently and in many places. Whether the genre is "Old-Time, Bluegrass,
Gospel or Country" or a mixture of these it's a very common and regular
occurance in many very small and relatively isolated communities.
People call them "Jams" and due to "Blue" laws and Conservative Christian
attitudes toward drinking these are usually held in places where no alcohol
is served. Country stores, community halls, etc. Anybody whoever spent
time in Souther Appalachia will know what I'm talking about. It's amazing
the percentage of the population that makes music for the simple of
fun of it.
I can identify very much with the non-Irish ITM player whose experience is charted by Charles Dodgson higher up this thread. I started with records and a tinwhistle (book) tutor, and took it from there.
A single bee can only carry what he can carry.
If you want honey you go to the beehive.
Not to say that each bee hasn't value, but it is each bee's contribution which adds to the flavour of the whole.
For me, at least, the hive is in Ireland where the royal jelly is.
It's not your analogy, and YOU have missed the point. You have got hives confused with bees, you poor thing. Come sit at the desk over here and I'll explain it. Or then again will I bother? Nah!
Wow! You've got it. Each bee carries honey of a different flavour. The hive is where you find all the different flavours. Of course there isn't one true flavour, clever of you to finally cotton on to that one, just like there is no ONE right way for EVERYONE to play or acquire the music. Congratulations. Well done.
Okay sorry I was being obtuse and pedantic for what I thought might be humorous effect. Your point about Irish music being a sum of the contributions of individuals is a valid one, and that there is a center of gravity for these efforts, which is in Ireland, I accept as well.
Michael is actually making a valid point here. Not sure whether I agree with it fully or not yet. Needs more pondering ...
I suppose it would be like saying that the music has gone beyond Ireland (assuming it was ever *just* there in the first place, wherever *that* might be) - bit like a particular type of animal spreading over a wider area than its origin and developing and changing its characteristics as it goes ...
Good point, and I guess my thoughts are that the center of gravity is rather unfocussed. That’s evasive, I know, much as some would like to have it at CCE headquarters at 32 Belgrave Square. It’s kind of pointless as a practical question, I mean, what can it matter to me here in the US, really, when I get out the fiddle and bow and go at a few tunes? But it’s interesting to debate the number of cherubim on a pinhead.
I’m in the camp that the music has grown larger than it’s origins, like jazz or rock or classical art music, and belongs to a world made greater by this gift from Ireland. Still, there’s a historical weight and credit must be given to the originators.
To the topic of the thread, as a merkin I guess I should be playing bluegrass or rock. But bluegrassers jam in parking lots. Rockers get together in garages and basements. ITMers meet in pubs. Next question.
Of course it's gone beyond Ireland. But remember as well, that it didn't originate there either. I'll accept that people on the island of Ireland focussed it into the thing that we all love, but that was just a step on its way.
The whole concept that it has some sort of spiritual home in a geographic place is nonsense. Its spiritual home is in the spirited people who have studied and learned it and carry it with them. Try telling Liz Carrol that Chicago is not Ireland. It's an utter and complete irrelevance.
Thanks fidkid. Ah my how ignorant I am. I liked your humorous effect it made me laugh, then take some time out to read up a bit on bees.
So I now know that drone bees are "shes" not "hes" and they carry beepollen which is sticky on their legs, but they store the nectar (80% water) in a special pocket in their abdomens - hand the nectar over mouth to mouth to worker bees in the hive who work it into honey and deposit it in the honeycombe, then it is ventilated by other bees till it only contains 18% water before being plugged with wax into the combe. The worker bees excrete royal jelly, mainly, but not wholly, for consumption by the queen, who eats the jelly exclusively. Phew! Highly complex and a lot of work fer the bees, not obvious when I sit observing them coming to drink from one particular ceramic waterplant pot in my garden. I don't know why they choose that particular pot to the exclusion of all the others, but they do. Seems even bees make choices/have preferences.
As for traditional musics here in Central Oz, I don't really know what the choices are if you want to play and not just listen to someone else's gigs. Sessions are jam sessions where people do party tricks into the mic. Not my scene.
Cross post. I agree, of course, Michael that Irish Music has diverse origins - there has been a lot of movement around this world and a lot of mixing of Peoples and cultures everywhere. But much as I think Liz Carrol is fantastic, she is not the whole of Irish music, she represents Irish music from Chicago that's all. Just as "Undertones" represents Irish music from Oz, and Dale Russ recorded Irish tunes played in America. There is a spiritual home for it in Ireland it is part of the culture of those who wish to follow in, otherwise it isn't Irish traditional music, it is something else.
Ridiculous. "Liz Carrol represents Irish music from Chicago that's all." and, "There is a spiritual home for it in Ireland, otherwise it isn't Irish traditional music". Ridiculous. The whole concept that it has to be in Ireland to give it some form of cultural spituallity is just ridiculous. Please try to understand that it's people who play music, individuals, not nations.
Interesting all this ... First, on an aside, I'm assuming this might be a cultural/language difference - otherwise there's something seriusly wrong with Australian bees. And, by the way, drones ARE male, and do absolutely nothing ... except one thing (OK, they eat as well, but they definitely don't do any work, including gathering pollen/nectar). Which, I suppose, could be argued of some human males. Oh, and NO bee has any choice at all in their behaviour within the colony - it's all pre-programmed ... which, again, could be argued to be true of humans ...
Meanwhile, back on topic:
"Of course it's gone beyond Ireland. But remember as well, that it didn't originate there either." That's what I was trying to convey in my post, Michael. Except that I would amend to read : "didn't originate there in isolation" or "only there" or some such. Of course, it's always been part of a much bigger picture.
Clear Drops, I would have to ask how much time you've spent in Ireland, the rest of the British Isles, Portland, Brittany, Cape Breton, Scandinavia looking for music and examining what you find? If you're from central Australia it isn't surprising you find it hard finding some people to play with. But I assure you, in a lot of England and most of Scotland, there is plenty going on and it's more based around the local traditions.
This music has never been (until recently) about cultural identity. It's about the social interaction of small communties from an era that no longer exists. Trad no longer serves a purpose, there can be few, if any, communities in Ireland where the population still gets together to dance. The culture/society that it was a part of no longer exists today. Apart from anything else, it stems from pagan religious practices which are no longer widely practiced today in Ireland (or, for that matter, any of the other regions in question).
Er ... I don't think it does stem from "pagan religious practices". I think you'll find that most, if not all, of the music originated out of secular Christian music, a lot of which was widespread throughout Europe, including Ireland, in the Middle Ages. Quite a lot of the music probably doesn't even stem from dance, but rather from song - see comments in various writings from O'Neill and others of his contemporaries. Of course, it's dance music now ...
Thank you Andy. Just goes to show you can't believe everything about bees you read on the internet. Just because someone has put it up on the internet doesn't make it so. Or maybe I just read it wrong - I'm happy to admit a mistake or two or three or more. No skin off my nose
"I don think some people here underestimate how rooted and connected the great musicians really are." to quote Kilfaboy above. And just because someone is in Chicago or anywhere else in the world, nowadays, they can still remain rooted and connected to a culture with a spiritual and physical location somewhere else in the world, for example Islam, a global religion, and Mecca, Irish traditional music and Ireland. Irish traditional music is not a religion granted, but it is an aspect of culture - "the skills, arts, beliefs and customs of a group of people, passed on from generation to generation" to quote my dictionary. This is why Irish immigrants brought their music (and other aspects of their rich culture) with them where ever they went - to retain their rooted and connectedness to Ireland. It is when the rootedness and connection is dissed on, and people elsewhere in the globe take ITM on as if it is their own, but still retaining the tag Irish traditional music, that they are doing a disservice to themselves and to the culture from which the music sprang and is still springing.
So andy_newcastle tell the Irish people who still live the culture which includes Irish traditional music in Ireland that "The culture/society that it was part of no longer exists today." I am sure they would be very pleased to hear that one.
Anyway, the day is grande again today and I am off to do another voluntary stint cleaning out the Old Stuart Town Gaol. Very tiny - the exercise yard is only about as big as my lounge/kitchen room. The oldest masonary building in the Northern Territory and the oldest building still standing in town constructed of any materials. Alright so it was only completed in 1909 and is only old comparitively, but is integral to the culture I am newly arrived to here. Unfortunately it was borne of the culture of colonialism, and maybe we are still backward here in The Territory, primitive and undeveloped, uncivilised, young and niaive. May I never lose it and become cynical is all I can say.
Have a lovely day. I've really enjoyed the sparring and its nice to know that you have at least listened to me before you have shot me down in flames. Luv yous all.
I don't know where Andy/Newcastle gets his information but I live in a place where music has it's social function like it always had and is played for dances and at social gatherings in various different contexts but then I live in a West Clare that when I described in the past has been put down here as a silly romantic non existent notion.
And re cultural identity, this music has long been used as a vehicle for all sorts of means of nationalist and other political nature, cultural and national identity. For a lot of musicians it IS about that (whether we like it or not or whether it is right or wrong). Coincidentally I was talking to Mick O Connor yesterday who has written a history of the old Dublin Piper's Club. He told me a majority of the original founders were not musicians, they were nationalists and political in their motives as he said 'it was the thing to do' . Anyway, music is many things to many people and cultural/national identity is certainly part of the picture of some.
I was at the Gaelic Roots festival a few years ago, and remember a very spirited discussion between two older musicians, one who said that the music of Ireland was pagan at its core and a sign of the persistence of the pagan spirit in the Irish people, and the other, obviously Christian, quite heatedly disagreeing with that assertion. Obviously, the music was abstract enough that these two opposing viewpoints could be held by two people who played and loved the same tunes!
Hmm, a number of interesting points whilst I was at work. Weellll, from the top down then: Ben, traditions such as "hunting the wren" (which occurs on the 26th Dec), which is supposed to help ensure a good harvest and the wren is used (and nailed to a cross) as it is the king of the birds. Certainly not any form of Christianity/Catholicism I've come across (I'm Catholic before anyone asks), although I'm a bit confused as to what "secular Christian" would be, the two seem a bit oxymoronic to me.
Clear Drops, I'm fairly sure the population of Ireland would actually be quite chuffed I don't think they don't have modern agricultural technology, cars, electricity etc and that times are somewhat different to how they were 150 years ago. I suppose it's a bit like seeing a person in varying stages of "growing up" - is an infant the same person as the adult they become? Does the infant still exist? The best analogy I could come up with (which could be regarded as slightly offensive which isn't how I meant it), but I think it clarifies what I meant.
Kilfarboy, where I get my information from? A couple of my friends were in an area known as "The Burren" (sp?) as part of a Morris dance side that was participating at a festival of dance. Firstly, the festival was cancelled, but more interesting is a report from a set dance they attended later in the week. They said, although it was well attended, it didn't exactly comprise a percentage of the population let alone a majority of it. Nonetheless, the turn out was regarded as "average". I wasn't there though and I don't know there area in terms of it's musical heritage, so I can't comment further than that.
From this I infered simply that there were few places where the *majority* of a community would be at a regular dance. So if the social context is that it connects the *whole* (say above 3/4) of the community (as opposed to a part of it which is what I suspect you describe) then I think my point holds.
Nontheless, I look forward to a morrass of misinterpretations for discussion tomorrow.
A lot of 'popular' music at one time (medieval time) was spread throughout Europe by 'wandering minstrels' - sounds like a joke now, but it was a living for some at the time. Their music was predominantly Christian in character and content, though not in any way associated with the church, or even condoned by the church.
Look up the word 'secular' - you'll find it means something different from what you imagined. It can even be applied to priests, but the usual modern meaning is simply 'not connected with the church'.
As far as I can make out from what I know of Irish music, what we know today didn't come from pagan roots - there may have been some influences a very long way back, but, for the most part, it comes from secular (ie non-church) Christian sources. Also, bear in mind just how old the influence of Christianity is in Ireland - and, for that matter, the rest of Europe as well.
When I studied music, a very long time ago, I was struck more than once by the similarity of certain jig tunes in the Historical Anthology of Music, from around the 11th and 12th centuries, to the Irish jigs I had been playing since I was a kid. These weren't pagan, but troubadour tunes and the like. That similarity in itself, of course, may mean nothing - it could be coincidence - but we know that that sort of 'popular' music, as well as more formal 'art' music and even 'church' music did spread, along with the instruments, all over the area known as 'the British Isles' which I wish I had a less controversial name for (phew!).
I know you're actually studying 'folk music' at the moment, so, if you have some different information, particularly about the pagan origin of Irish music - backed up by some sort of evidence - I would be extremely interested to read it.
Benhall.1 no panic about the British Isles issue but the british Isles to me just means the UK. You could say the british isles and Ireland thats if the Welsh and Scots are ok with that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute
Sorry for being picky but its a big part of my culture.
If the strict definitions of the borders around where you live are a big part of your culture, and the music is also a big part of your culture, how do you reconcile that the music is blind to the borders?
llig British isles is a term that should be left behind so there are no boundries . Bristish Isles was a term used by Imperialist British for land they thought they owned as you said about the music i ll say it about the land . The British don't own Ireland nor do they have any rights to it.
I wonder are there any terms that you don't like e.g. Bodhran.
P.S. Llig you'll never understand my culture but some day I'd like to sit down with,have a pint and explain it all .
OK, thanks for the link, saint. Fairly explanatory, so that helps. However, the problem doesn't go away.
2 things:
1 I can't make myself say "the British Isles and Ireland" because to me that just doesn't make sense - no political problem for me, just it's factually wrong; and
2 'the British Isles' has never been "a term used by Imperialist British for land they thought they owned". It is, as pointed out in that Wikipedia article, politically neutral in England and Wales (I know these countries intimately - for all I know, it's politically neutral in Scotland as well, but I don't personally know that, which is why I'm being careful). Anyway, from an English/Welsh perspective it doesn't imply ownership at all. Just a geographic area. I can understand why *you* might use the term that way, but it's never been used by the English/Welsh in that way. In fact, if you read on in the links in wikipedia, you'll discover that the Romans referred to the islands making up the UK and Ireland as 'Britanniae', a term which is more or less a prototype for 'British Isles', so the thinking behind the term predates any British imperialist agenda by quite some way.
George Orwell said that there was only one non-politically charged name for Great Britain, which is Albion, a name of Celtic origin. So, we could have 'Albion and Ireland'. Isee Wikipedia suggests 'Great Britain and Ireland'. But it wasn't very long ago that the mere term 'Great Britain' was also highly politically charged.
Not easy, this ... I think I'll try 'Great Britain and Ireland' and see if anyone objects ...
"Great Britain and Ireland" is just too much of a mouthful, and it is visibly a construct that is attempting to be "politically correct" in someones eyes, which also makes it uncomfortable.
"British isles" is a perfectly good term. It is clear from its structure that it refers in the first place to physical geography, i.e. to the islands, and handily includes Shetland, Orkney, Arran, Isle of Man, Channel Islands, the island of Ireland, even including Sherkin Island (which some would like to declare independent, I know) regardless of how ruling powers have changed and perhaps will change.
For the sake of a few people who have a problem with it I would be willing to use something else *if and when* there were a clear, simple, easy and meaningful alternative.
I am serious, saint - if you have a *good* alternative, I'll use it for your sake and that of the other people to whom it seems to matter.
Ben,
It's an interesting one that sadly I can't attempt to clarify at the moment as I'm in York and away from all the resources I would usually have access to. Nontheless, when I get back I'll endevour to find out (I'll send you my findings as that won't be for a week or so). I wasn't attempting to place origins for the dance music, I purely meant some of the ritualistic practices which were allied to the same way of life as the music was appeared to be quite firmly pagan in origin (re: the wren example). Given the fiddle wasn't invented till after 1500 then certainly I'm not suggesting the tunes were composed by sun-worshipping druids!
My confusion about "secular Christian" came from me interpreting it to mean "non-religious Christian" which on second consideration kind of makes sense if Christian is taken to mean to period of history as opposed to the religion.
Thanks Benhall1 for putting up with my objection . I did say it was a term used by Imperialist at a sensitive politcial time . From my studies this annoyed me .
I hate to say it llig is right its about the music.
I’ve been thinking about this discussion for several days now, maybe because, as an American, the original question strikes home. It occurs to me that maybe a tradition belongs to no one, but a person can, through fortune and effort, belong to a tradition.
Another thought was to rephrase the question: “I’m of French descent through my wife’s grandmother, so of course I like French fries. What I ‘d like to know is, why do _you_ like French fries?”
Well there’s no real harm I think in putting a nationality on the
music.
Just as long as people don’t come out with the “ there has to
be some irish in your blood to play it” bull.
I mean I’m Irish – but people could say well if you go back far
enough your eastern European…or further still you’re African…
or further still, you’re a fish.
I’m not going to go around saying I’m not Irish – I’m of the
World.
I can do no better than repeat the words of an Irish Embassy spokesman in London quoted by The Times of London a few months ago: "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage." Amen to that!
Good on you Saint! I don't think Londoners would be too happy if we tried to say that they resided on the Irish Isles. All musical considerations apart, I think the term "British Isles" when applied to Ireland belongs to a dark colonial past and should be consigned to the dusbin of history where it now belongs.
Welcome to www.borders-r-us.org where we discuss national boundaries and the definitions of said enclosed tracts of land, while trying desperately not to offend. (music has no relevance, of course, as the wind whistles it high above the cartographers' demarkations)
We are trav'ling in the footsteps
Of those who've gone before,
And we'll all be reunited,
On a new and sunlit shore,
Oh, when the saints go marching in
Oh, when the saints go marching in
Practically every tourist organisation in every county along the banks of the Shannon refers to it as "the longest river in the British Isles" - perhaps those who are unhappy with the term should tackle them first.
Inability to distinguish between geographical and political terms is another symptom of the fuzzy thinking which has even permeated the Irish diplomatic service. I wonder if he thinks Irish traditional music is also has a "dated ring". What kind of convoluted thinking does it require to hold traditional music dear while strenuously jumping on a commonly used and harmless phrase because it has a "dated ring to it", all the while using the term "spokesman" instead of "spokesperson"?
I suppose the ability to express several contradictory opinions at once is an enduring if not always endearing human trait. The sort of thing bigots in this neck of the woods used to call "Irish"
I had a huge reply all typed out and everything to this, but for some reason, probably because it took so long, it hasn't appeared on the thread. At least I don't think it has. But my thanks go to Beamish Boy - the first (and only?) person to mention the Isle of Man in any form! The crux (is that a word) of my contribution was that just because we over here on this rock are more commonly known for cats without tails and fast motorbike racing, it doesn't mean that we don't have our own music - we're all proud of it, but we do recognise that, like the language, there are similarities with Irish music and also Scottish music. We are (through several means) trying to get our music to a wider audience, but it appears to be a long process. However, I'll freely admit myself that I have been heavily influenced by Irish music, to the point of doing my MA at Limerick, but I genuinely don't feel it has taken over my style and general influences. Does that make sense? I hope so, I've been researching 'Rivers' for the past 3 hours, so please excuse me if it doesn't!
saint, happy to acknowledge your concerns, and it doesn't strike me as particularly unusual for a term which may have been in use for a couple of thousand years becoming tinged with the politics of a particular era - at any rate, for a time.
Thought your "Irish Isles" was quite funny, actually. Might use it myself for a bit - trouble is, people will probably see it as ironic, and you, and I, will be back to square one.
Now ... what was the question? Ah yes, taking pride in 'your own' music. Mine's designated 'Irish', and I'm quite proud of it. It's been like that for the vast majority of my life, and I'm too old to change that now, rightly or wrongly ...
I would like to be light hearted as often as possible. I'm not telling people not to use the term British Isles nor am I anti British, but I personally won't recognise the term because over a period of time, a lot of people died for Ireland's independence.
To link something to Ireland geographically or politically takes from Ireland's independence.
I'm afraid I hear a bit too much of "f3f gg c f|gfed A2 z2|a2g2 f/d/g/e/ a/f/e/d/|A2e2 d2:|]" in some of the previous posts. Lets look to a better future and move with the times; even Martin and Big Ian were in agreement last week that Peter should vacate the castle!
Other traditional forms of music
Other traditional forms of music
I'm an American with Irish heritage and spent a year over in Ireland having a grand time playing tunes. I noticed so many other nationalities of people playing the music. It was lovely to see so many Japanese people as well as so many other Europeans, North Americans, etc sitting in sessions and knowing hundreds of Irish tunes. Fair play to ye all!
)
My question is this. Why don't other nationalities of people take pride in their own traditional music in the capacity that the Irish do? Why don't other nationalities take an interest in their own traditional music but instead devote themselves to Irish Trad? You can go anywhere in the world and find an Irish session, but why just Irish Trad? I know Irish trad Music is mighty and I personally love it myself. But if you are Japanese and live in Clare, do you also play Japanese traditional music as well? If you are Italian or German or whatever, do you play "your own" music as well? I know Germany lost a lot of it's own trad music during WW2, but I'm sure there had to be a few people who kept it alive.
I'm trying hard to be politically correct and not offend anyone. Bottom line: why not 'your own music'?
Fire away! (I'll go hide on this one
Jane
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by jane smith
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Not to be contrary but is it strange for a European to play Irish music but not so much for an American? I wonder do you play 'your own music', whatever that may be?
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
kilfarboy, that can be anything from old time to blues to cajun to Texas swing to gospel spirituals to Tejano to Hawaian songs! It depends on where you grow up and what your heritage is. There are families and communities in New York and Boston and Chicago that have played Irish music ever since their ancestors got off the boats. People like Brian Conway, for example---his family is steeped in Irish music.
Of course, most of the rest of us don't have any sort of pedigree and we just love the stuff...
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Other traditional forms of music
This is a great topic!
I think in North America we are such a mixture of everyone - a melting pot, they say. I have a little Irish in me, but a whole lot of other genes...Scottish, German, Russian, Hungarian etc. I think I am typical.
But what about largely homogeneous nations? I bet Finnish, Bulgarian and Yiddish sessions would be great fun. But where are they?
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Other traditional forms of music
First of all, Irish music has both charm and a social tradition of having sessions. Perhaps because the Irish emigrated to many countries, the music has also spread.
Then, too, the main instruments are very accessible--violin, flute, guitar, tin whistle, which is inexpensive. You don't have to learn any specialty instruments.
Although learning a simple tune may not be a huge stretch for a musician, even though I have heard people who play the notes, but not quite with the right swing--that takes practice. As one keeps playing you learn that the music can be quite complex in terms of style, ornamentation, types of tunes and much more, so no one ever needs to get bored with it.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by chicitysue
Re: Other traditional forms of music
That's right. I haven't been able to find any
Puerto-Rican/Jewish music. I mean what would that be? Klezmeir-Salsa? lol! Yiidish would be Klezmeir and maybe you'll find them in Jewish neighborhoods like Fairfax here in L.A. I just haven't had much interest in either Klezmeir (or Salsa for that matter) to find out.
I think it's great when someone from a particular ethnic background wants to learn something from a different ethnic background. Be it music, language, art etc.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I think other nationalities do take pride in their native arts and music, but the ever-present commercial profiteers consume all of the attention. Just because traditional music isn't on MTV, doesn't mean its not alive and well in all countries around the world. Thank goodness. In fact, we are probably blessed that it doesn't get that attention, lest it become spoiled, codified, or worse. Keep it wild, free, and faithful.
Jim
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by jhol111964
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Around here in America, the Irish pubs are the ones that give us free beer when we play there, so naturally we play Irish music! And for some reason, if Scots run pubs, they don't flaunt their heritage, or promote Scottish music. While there are some drinking/eating/dancing establishments that promote other the traditional music cultures, for some reason, Irish ones are more prevalent.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I'm not at all sure that 'the Irish' do take pride in their national music. It strikes me that the majority couldn't care less, just as the majority of people in other parts of the world couldn't care less about *any* type of folk music.
I think we're also, so far in this thread, pre-supposing that ITM originated exclusively in Ireland and is exclusively Irish. In fact, it developed over many centuries alongside and, most of the time, as part of, the wider folk music of the British Isles. I know that what we think of as ITM is recognisably Irish *now*, but, until quite recently, there would have been gradations of both style and repertoire - and a huge amount of crossover - throughout the four kingdoms.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I think Jewish Klezmer music diminished for a time because it wasn't cool - it was associated with life in European or Russian ghettoes that emigrants to the USA, to Israel also, wanted to put behind them; and many of its practitioners will have been killed by the Nazis. Same applies to Yiddish. But there is a new interest in both. I imagine though that much, though not all, Klezmer is played in exclusively Jewish environments.
The northern Jews (Ashkenazim) spoke Yiddish and played Klezmer; the southern ones (Sephardim), at any rate those from Spain, spoke Ladino and had a more Spanish / Moorish / Arabic style of music. The Burning Bush Ensemble has produced pleasant albums with examples from both traditions.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Other traditional forms of music
All that is very interesting, but do they get together in public places in little circles and play for fun?
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Well, this is just my opinion, but why do some people like jazz, others rock, and some hip hop? Could it be that its just a matter of preference? I'm German and Italian, but I hate German polkas. Anyway- the only reason why anybody should play a type of music should be because they like it. They shouldn't feel obligated to play it because it belongs to their country.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I assume they do so in the curious little hilltop town of Safed in Israel, which is quite taken over by a big Klezmer festival every summer. (It was a war zone last year. I went there in 2000 - not at festival time.)
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Other traditional forms of music
ha, that "free beer" answer was hilarious!
jane, i think that traditional music is alive and well in cultures around the globe. one of the years i attended the willy clancy week, the marathon end-of-week concert even featured a japanese folk-dance group in traditional kimonos.....the "session" phenom may not be a universal to many cultures, but traditional music is alive and well in places like scandinavia, the middle east, eastern europe, etc---at least, not much less than in ireland where, though the itm scene there seems like paradise to visitors, the fact is that the great majority of the irish population have little to no interest in traditional music. they're into c&w, rock, hip-hop, etc! for a wonderful look at cross-cultural musical interests, i highly recommend roddy doyle's very funny novel "the commitments" and the movie based on it (but not the dopey touring band spun off from it later) about a bunch of kids from a working-class dublin suburb who start a soul/r&b band......we are lucky enough to live at a point in history where we're not bound to follow interests just because they are from our race, ethnicity, country, or religion......in my city we have serious itm players from asian, african-american and other backgrounds, not to mention a new york jew who came out here, fell for mariachi music, and never looked back! the guy wears the clothes, lives in the neighborhood, studied the music for years and gigs as a mariachi all over the city! arrrrrrrrrriva!
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Not to be contrary but is it strange for a European to play Irish music but not so much for an American?
To tighten up the question: Is is strange for a (non-Irish) European to play Irish music but not so much for Americans of Irish heritage to play their own ethnic Irish musical tradition which, although transplanted, has had an organic and influential presence in their country for at least 160 years?
No, not strange, but perhaps calling for more of an explanation. Whereas the latter seems equivalent to what may happen in Ireland all the time. And at last national census, the population of Irish Americans stood at around 34 million.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Rumgut
Re: Other traditional forms of music
What's a mariachi?
I saw "The Commitments" and did find it funny - especially the small boy's line when about to put his horse in the lift of a block of flats ("The stairs would kill it!..")-
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Other traditional forms of music
mtguru, though i'm not part of the "needing an explanation" faction, i do find one part of your last post really interesting---i think it is fascinating how white americans are not thought of has having an "ethnic" heritage....my theory is that this came about first by way of white immigrants and their descendants assimilating by dissassociating themselves from that word and attaching the term "ethnic" only to people of color (though the word has no racial or skin-color connotation whatsoever)......we're "just people," everybody with darker skin is "ethnic".........today, many white americans still bristle at the idea of being "ethnic," and many people of color jeer at the idea of white people having "ethnic music" or "ethnic backgrounds." it's sad, and silly......we're all both---all "just people" and we all have "ethnic heritage."
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Other traditional forms of music
nicholas, mariachi music is a traditional mexican dance, music genre featuring fiddles, guitars, and a brass section, usually trumpet(s)....usually shakers. linda rondstadt gave it a shot of "riverdance" style world-music fame in the 1990s with a tour centered on her record, "canciones de mi padre." not to be confused with my favorite traditional mexican genre of all "cojunto," which features fiddles & accordions.....much like itm and other roots music forms, many mariachi and conjunto masters come from musical families where the tradition is passed down and many family members play....it is super-fun, wonderful music...
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Fair enough question...
My family are Easter European Jewish immigrants to the US, on all sides. As a kid I was really in to old time music, not hearing ITM until college years (in a local session at first, then recordings). Not hearing good Klezmer either, for that matter. There's lots of good Kelzmer around now; locally and everywhere it seems (nicholas, I've read about a huge Jewish music festival in Poland - strange, according to articles I've read, as all the Jews in that area were killed or fled during WWII).
But with my limited grown-up time for music now, Irish music wins out for me - no contest. Can't explain it, I just love it. And learning about the culture and land that produced the music, and seeking out the source (whether it be Cork or Chicago) seems natural. I don't see how this would be different for someone from San Francisco or Sao Paolo. Anyine reading this board will understand, surely.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Other traditional forms of music
ceemonster, I agree. But it's understandable if you consider that a key aspect of American intellectual policy from the beginning has been to forge a national identity from diverse and constantly renewed immigrant populations. Hence the importance of officially encouraging a sense of shared Americanism over ethnic identification among the majority population. Of course, racialism poisoned that well from the beginning, but served as one more "us versus them" marker to bind European Americans together in a shared identity. Interestingly, it's no coincidence that the rapid rise in interest in ethnic identity of all kinds in the 60s and 70s, and the explosion of interest in ethnic and regional musical diversity, coincided with the successes of the civil rights movement. When faced with the breakdown of the myth of the one big happy melting pot, it became OK to be ethnic again. And that's a story that yet to have the final chapter written.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Rumgut
Re: Other traditional forms of music
With regard to German folk music, it unfortunately acquired an smear by association, the Nazi Party in the 30's used it as part of encouragement for everyone to be patriotic Germans; hence when singers like Collin Wilkie and Shirley Hart were busking round Germany in the '60s and '70s, they discovered that old German folk songs would be derided by the older people, who remembered them being used in the '30s, as "Nazi songs", even though they were much older than the Nazi era.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"....the population of Irish Americans stood at around 34 million." - Aye & 33.5 million of them listen to that other popular form of Traditional American Music - *Country Music*, wall to wall, all week long ..... & adopt American Cowboy accents to sing along to it!!
I wonder how many German or Japanese Music sessions there are in Clare, anyway?
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Other traditional forms of music
It's a dangerous topic this. Ethnicity, heritage, genes etc. I saw an article recently where it was discovered that there is not a shred of difference between Irish and English dna. I'm worried by MTGuru's "myth of the one big happy melting pot" and it being "OK to be ethnic again". The genetic melting pot is no myth, happy or not. So it's very important to view any heritage you may think as yours purely in terms of the direct contact you have with it, not in terms of any right you feel you may have to it merely because of ancestry.
The important point to remember is that the Irish do not own Traditional Irish Music, And they do not own any rights to to it. No one can ever own it, and any rights can only come from dedicated exposure and practice.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
American old-timey music and bluegrass are also played in many places around the world, in casual jams similar in some ways to Irish sessions. You can in fact find such jams in Europe (including Ireland and the UK) and Asia, as well as all over North America.
So the phenomenon isn't unique to Irish trad.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Llig sounds like you want to be Irish.If Irish music did nt belong to the Irish it would be just called MUSIC.Different people can have different reasons to take pride in Irish music e.g. the name of a tune could be called after a place that is close to someones heart.
One reason why Irish music is so strong is because it was banned and its only human nature if you can't have something you want it more.A second reason is some clever people that emigrated deciede start writing tunes down and recording them so every one had access alot of other cultures did nt do this .
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"If Irish music did nt belong to the Irish it would be just called MUSIC."
That is just playing with words. On a tight definition, Irish music would have to be played in Ireland (and nowhere else) by Irish people (and noone else) and listened to by Irish people (and noone else). But such a tight definition would be silly.
The *genre* of music we know as ITM does not - and cannot - "belong" to anyone. It is associated with Ireland in various ways, which is why we use the name, but it is played by people of many nations, including of course many Americans, and enjoyed by people of many nations.
As has been pointed out, it did not *originate* in Ireland - it is just a particular flavour of the music of the British Isles and parts of Europe. And it survived better than many others, not because it was banned, but because it was encouraged by people like the Gaelic League, when, around the beginning of last century, many Irish people sought to develop a sense of being a separate nation.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Sure, llig, it's a touchy subject that can trigger passions. And mind, it's not "my" myth -- I'm not endorsing any particular truth, just describing prevailing and changing social perceptions and motives in one time and place. Genetics tests for allowed interest in a particular music (or any human endeavor) are obviously specious and pernicious. But perceived identity can be real. And addressing only one of kilfarboy's points, the interest of Irish Americans in ITM is very much the kind of thing supported by trends in American culture for the past several decades. I left the issue of why others may also be drawn to ITM unaddressed.
The shared DNA pool of Ireland and Britain goes to an increasingly accepted view of the repopulation of Atlantic Europe from glacial refuges, probably Iberian, following the last glacial maximum around 25000 BCE. Interesting stuff, but hardly relevant pro or con (or at least it shouldn't be) to cultural questions like the current topic -- which I believe was your point, too.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Rumgut
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I'm from Nfld and we have a lot of our own traditional music. Much of it though has to do with many Nflders having Irish descent and the sound has been passed down.
St. John's, The Capital of Nfld is said to have the most pubs per capita than any City on the planet. And the East coast music, (Cape Breton, Novs Scotia, and Nfld) along with the Irish stuff is amazing.
Ken
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by salmoncove
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Interesting topic! By nationality, I'm Swiss-American (grew up in both places), and yet, I wouldn't feel any more (or less) authentic than I do playing ITM if I were to play Swiss accordion music or American old-time. In fact, learning old-time or blues would take just as much effort and have just as little to do with my heritage as learning ITM does.
I don't think musical heritage is dictated by ancestry, it's dictated by what one grows up hearing (which happened to be European classical music, for me). And in the end, what matters is what feels most authentic to the musician--in my case, ITM fulfills my musical needs. Finding the right vehicle for musical expression isn't inherently tied to nationality or ethnicity.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by mcswiss
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"One reason why Irish music is so strong is because it was banned and its only human nature if you can't have something you want it more."
But the present strength of Irish music comes really from the revival, before which it was, by repute, pretty weak, though I accept it may have been strong in some localised areas. And it hadn't been 'banned' for an awful long time by then ...
Also, in connection with your second point, saint, English music, Welsh music, Scots music and, for all I know, lots of other types of music as well, have oodles and oodles of transcribed tunes, songs etc etc. It's just that not so many people are interested enough to find them and play them.
My point being that those sorts of views (it's because of oppression, or it's because of historic pride shown by Irishmen in the past) *don't* actually explain the success (=popularity) of ITM. I think it's explained by the fact that it's just good music.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Irish music has evolved over time. If it had not it would not be as popular as it is. Other traditional musics that strive for continuity and keeping everything the same aren't as popular because of it. I'm not saying it's therefore wrong, but I think it may partially explain the situation.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I think this music belongs to the players who take it seriously enough to play it well, the ones who make the effort of learning it from musicians who really have it and so become part of the continuity that comes with the 'traditional' .
I don't go for the genetic element, certainly if it comes from Americans who desperately seem to need something to identify with while to everybody else they are just 'American' (which is fine, everybody is who he/she is but it strikes me as somehow strange to hear people who are so apparently from a particular place and culture, no matter where there grandmothers came from, proclaim they are 'Irish' and assuming it's strange for 'others' to play this music).
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
In England, pub songs around the piano survived well into my early drinking years in the 60's and 70's but not much evidence of them now. I think this was the prevalent English folk culture - everyone knew the words and a great time was had. We are now generally seeing the death-throes of the pub as a social meeting ground where music is made by and for the clientele, except - a short walk away for me (luckily) - two drinking establishments where you can drop in and play tunes. This is our local live music, and it is Irish in origin, God bless the Irish landlord (and landlady) because without them it wouldn't happen! But you don't need to be Irish to play it.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Other traditional forms of music
The English traditional music session scene is alive and well and threatened only by the actions of the government in making it hard to play any kind of live music in pubs and the Performing Rights Society in attempting to get royalties for music played in sessions. It isn't commercial so it isn't exported but it is alive and well and dancing.
All traditional music is a minority interest compared to other kinds of music, and all live music is under threat from commercial organisations who want people to be passive paying customers not active playing musicians.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by c.g.
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I tried to answer the initial question as fas as Germany is concerned:
http://www.kuec.privat.t-online.de/traditional_music_in_Germany.htm
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by kuec
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Yes, a local of mine in Durham had a piano and an old guy playing singalong music on a Saturday night, and very good it was; both long gone.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Ireland seems to have got it right at the moment; lots of brilliant players who can make / supplement a living by it, lots of enthusiasts visiting, but with the edge and freedom from complete gobble-up by big interests that goes with being a minority pursuit. If all the uninterested populace started devoting themselves to ITM tomorrow, face it, the country would grind to a halt!
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Other traditional forms of music
As an extension to the piano player, singalong style of entertainment, there used to be an old Victorian-style pub on the Isle of Dogs (London Docklands area) that specialised in music hall nights..
The pub was owned by the late Dan Farson and I think Roy Hudd had some involvement in it.
It was pure singalong and audience participation - very well done and a great night out if you like that kind of thing.
It was all quite camp with plenty of cross-dressers and some of the artistes were not quite the gender you might have thought they were (funny how that section of society are so attracted to nostalgia), but that added to the fun of it all.
I suppose it has all been knocked down now and turned into trendy restaurants with menus in french.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Apart from a lot of tunes being played as ITM are not from Ireland (Northumbrian and Scottish being the other two major contributions)
I agree with the previous comments about the performing rights society mafia .At one point they wanted to charge me for playing my own music for my own dance class.
Work that one out.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Other traditional forms of music
The is a theory, not mine but seems to be fair to me, that nations who were oppressed have retained their national identity through folk song and dance far more than the nations who oppressed others. Hence the Irish and Scots have thriving folk cultures that are accepted by all of the nation whereas in England our folk culture is looked down on.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by goldfrog
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"Sounds like I want to be Irish"? Saint, I'm not surprised you have problems assimilating, seeings as you seem to have an uncanny ability to spectacularly get the wrong end of the stick.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Who deciedes which side is the wrong side of the stick and thank for calling me spectacular . Goldfrog I agree oppression also adds to the interest . I think it s great that so many people from all over the world play itm for what ever reason but my reason for loving Irish music is simple . I love my culture (the Irish culture) and Irish music is a big part of that and no one can take that away. I also have huge respect for Northumbrian and Scotish music because it is steeped in culture and even though I play it I would never try to take it away from them . What is it about SOME of ye Brits ye always want to take things away from people....Land ,music etc.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
We've had a lot of threads about why Irish traditional music is so universal (eg played in Japan, Moscow, Germany, North America .... oops I nearly forgot the UK!) and also whether you have to be born on the island to play it properly. I think today's Comhaltas clip from the North American convention where all these non-Irish born musicians play with such heart, vigour and lift (see http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_203_6_canadian_session/) says it all. Irish music is a gift from the Almighty to be played and enjoyed by all who have the inclination, whoever and wherever they may be.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Bannerman I agree with that 100% . But saying Irish music does nt belong to the Irish is a bit like saying Chienese food has nothing got to do with China because it eaten all over the world.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
But how can music "belong" to anybody ?
(Unless you´re talking about manuscripts)
Surely the word "belong" implies property rights and, as far as I know, there are no such rights attached to the playing of, or listening to, irish music.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I should admit Saint that I hadn't read all the posts here and had in no way intended to take sides with any point of view. By quickly scanning the comments I thought we were getting into the territory of "who can and who can't play trad" which is why I decided to post. However, on the separate question of "what is trad?" I would agree that it needs to be seen in its context as deriving from Irish history and culture and we must never lose sight of its past and practitioners (collectors, composers, performers,etc) to to really apreciate and enjoy it. To people who oppose this point of view and are quite happy playing "Gan Ainms", then this is their choice but I feel they are missing out on the full experience of what is a very rich tradition.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Other traditional forms of music
How can music 'belong' to anybody. Well, if in the case of traditional music it is handed on (or down, or up as the case may be) it is handed from the care of one person, generation or whatever you want to call it, to the next one. To care for and to pass on eventually. In that sense it belongs to those who received it and the manner and culture that (here it is again) belongs to it. It's a manner of speaking ofcourse but does it belong to the masses that don't care a rat's ass about it. I doubt it somehow.
It's a gift you know, something that is given to you and in that sense you do take possession of it (as it takes possession of yourself in a lot of cases). But it is for anyone to accept that gift and prove worthy of it.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I agree with all that you say, Kilfarboy, but I was taking issue with what I believed to be Saint´s use of the word "belong" i.e. foreigners (principally the English) taking and appropriating the music that belongs to the Irish.
I don´t agree with this possessive attitude, but I can see where Saint is coming from.
He was probably prompted to make his remarks after reading some of the comments earlier on in the thread that lumped together Irish, Scottish and English folk music all into one big original pot, with the implication that there wasn´t really much difference between any of them at the beginning and that Irish music became popular because of luck and good marketing.
I detect a whiff of jealousy in this way of thinking.
There´s nothing wrong with English folk music, which is rich and varied, but comparisons just don´t work.
You can only say what you prefer listening to and playing.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Ha Ha that old ITM bubble of self importance rears it's ugly head again!
World Population - 6.6 Billion
North America & Europe = less than 20%
Please don't imagine for one second that ITM is actually played by more people than any other form of traditional music.
e.g. would anyone like to estimate how many traditional musicians there are in Asia, or Africa?
Catch yourselves on guys.
Anyway, *McDonalds* are perhaps more widespread than any other *restaurant* Worldwide ........... so does that automatically mean that they serve the best food?
Hip Hop & Country Music may well be the most popular forms of music in the Western World - but does that automatically make them - the best?
Surely the idea of someone actually *owning* music is just pure BALONEY .... isn't it?
Come on, this has to be a wind-up!
Ownership:
“Vedanta ( Indian spiritual science ) believes that the feeling of ownership is an illusion, which remains with oneself as long as one considers oneself as separate from the Universe.
When one understands the fundamental reality that there is only one entity called the Universe, there is no need for ownership and one gets rid of this illusion.”
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Ah, but you can own it. It's the gift that keeps on giving. When you give it away, you still own it. When someone takes it from you, you still own it. Magic.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Other traditional forms of music
And sometimes it comes back to you with interest as, in many cases, the pupil goes on to reach greater levels of ability than the teacher!
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Here in Ottawa we have a Klezmer session. It has been running Sundays 2 to 4 pm at The Ottawa Bagel Shop on Wellington St. for three years. Depending on who shows up Russian ,Hungarian or Israeli tunes also get played.
There is also a long running Klezmer session in Manchester.
http://www.manchesterklezmer.org/index.html
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by McMandolin
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I reacted to "The important point to remember is that the Irish do not own Traditional Irish Music, And they do not own any rights to to it". I don t like this statement and the wording of it . Does this mean that a part of my culture(the music) does nt belong to me .Secondly I know some people don t understand refering to Ireland as part of the British Isles can be insulting to some of us. I ll say it I think the music should belong or be owned by everyone all over the world including the Irish . As I keep saying on this site I believe in equality and I don't like Elitism so let every on join in ,own and have rights to the music.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
If a man writes a tune but lets nobody else hear it, then perhaps he owns it ... but in that state it is absolutely worthless in *Traditional* terms.
So, he lets others hear it & in the hearing of it they like it & they learn it, & so it is passed into the tradition, but it no longer belongs to him any more ............... nor does it belong to anyone else either.
It's a bit like Love I suppose ..... do any of us actually own the love we have for our nearest & dearest. Would we like to, or could we, frame it, or bottle it, or hold it in a cage & exhibit it?
No, I believe some things are above ownership .... it's part of their charm!
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Responding to one of points in the original post, I would add that one of the reasons nationalities don't take pride in their own traditional music is education. I'm a product of public education in the US. I had no knowledge of Old Time music until I found it on my own later in life. There are probably prejudicial and regional reasons for those decisions being made which don't need to be part of this topic.
As mentioned somewhere above, Irish music connects with me at a level deeper than hearing only. Don't know how to describe it, really. I do get the same feeling with music from Scotland and the Shetlands, and I know Scotland is working to get a handle on their tradtional music through the TSMA.
On thing that has not been mentioned, is the association of traditional music and dance. When I see a strong music scene (Old Time, Irish, etc.), it is usually closely connected with dances (Contras, squares, etc.). I think it's community that keeps the tradition going, not necessarily the musicans alone.
One other thought I have that makes ITM so great, is with their history. Everyone can easily associate themselves with the underdog, and many times Ireland has been in that position. Doing their best to deal with things that were forced upon them, be it Britain or God. But through the pains, persecutions and exiles of these brave Irish people, we have strong Irish communities all over the world, and their music to go with it.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by nofrets
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Brilliant stuff nofrets . well said
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I don't know,
Many of these arguments have isolated the music as an entity unto itself bereft of any social context outside of a pub session making it appear transplantable and modular. Jigs and reels are a significant aspect of music as it relates to Irish people but by no means does it end there. There is no social occasion in Conamara for example that doesn't involve a musician who plays traditional music, Irish traditional music, not Scottish, English, Bangladeshi or whatever. Everything from a few pints in the local after the Parish meeting to christenings, football teams celebrating a cup win and so on. Local musicians are celebrated for their skill in excelling at Irish music, not music in general and are a source of pride in the community being an extension of that community and indivisible from it. I often think that people assume they have achieved cultural heights by establishing a session at their local in, say, Bloomington Illinois but if that's where it starts and stops it means nothing. Who sings the funeral songs at your aunties wake ? Who writes the tune that celebrates your neighbour's horse coming in at the local derby ? Who sings your baby to sleep with ancient Gaelic nonsense rhymes? In a very real way Irish music in North America has become commodified (in attempting to book a well known fiddler for a festival I was well and truly informed that he doesn't get out of bed for less than $2000 for the w/e, beginning and end of conversation), in England it can be more often than not used as a cultural identifier, I might be born in England but my music is Irish, got it ?
Another point that I've been thinking about is the association of the session with the spread of the "irish pub" around the world. How much music was in your own area before the "irish pub" came along ? How much does the "irish pub" justify itself with an "irish session" ? These are the thoughts that occupy my very fuzzy mind as I wake up to another freezing cold day in Toronto made somewhat palatable by giving Nuala Kennedy's new cd a spin over a cup of tea.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Patkiwi
Re: Other traditional forms of music
There were three "Irish pubs" in Durham (UK); but to mix metaphors, the commercial green tide had bitten off more than it could chew when it took on Durham: there is now only one. I go there for good cheap Irish stew. On Saturday nights they have bands, but not wanting to queue for ages to get in I don't know what they are like. Standard pub rock I assume. None of these pubs ever had sessions as far as I know - though ghostly (and not very inspiring) Irish tunes can sometimes be heard coming from a speaker in the surviving establishment.
(Durham itself has been pretty amenable to sessions / singarounds / folk clubs over the years.)
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I agree with Patkiwi that you can't separate music from the (other elements of the) culture, it's the continuity that is part and parcel of 'traditional'. I mean you don't become a traditional musician by learning tunes from off the internet and playing them with other people who have done the same.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Greetings:
Most German-American societies have not one but a network of choruses. German folksongs and religious music are typically what they sing. There are also dance groups and polka bands that we kind of put up with once or twice a year at German-American Day, Oktoberfest, and the like >wg<.
In G-A families, it's common for one or several people to play instruments, and most people I know who grew up in the same background I did had at least the chance to take music lessons. I never had any pressure put on me to play music by German composers, and I'm not aware that others did. Church congregations that are largely G-A typically have a thriving music program. The church I grew up in performed The St. Matthew Passion every other year.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I have been wondering about this one a lot lately. As cathrynb and others have noted, certain communities have managed to hang on to a music tradition in spite of the pressures of life to give it up and become passive consummers.
I think, patkiwi, that the cultural context angle is very important. Quite a few people recognize the integral part that music plays in some communities, and we want some of that. For some, it means being satisfied with the local fake irish pub (enough with the corned beef, thank you) or Daniel O'Whatshisname warbling away during Public Broadcasting pledge week. But most people have the idea that learning to play an instrument after you graduate from high school is just too weird for them; it is eccentric. And so those who want to play with others have to choose from what has survived. Dance music tends to survive. In my neck of the woods, I can choose between Irish trad, Scottish trad, old time, bluegrass, cowboy and jazz music communities. Pretty good for living in the sticks. And these music styles all have historic roots in the area (except for the jazz players, and I hear that they are all big Lunasa fans......nyuk nyuk nyuk). But the people I play with don't really come from any of those traditions. They chose it because they love it; who knows where the need to play it came from? I can at least claim an Irish great grandfather, but no one in my family played music; I am the eccentric one. I grew up listening to the Beatles on WLS in Chicago with a significant detour through European classical music as a teenager. So where did my brain get hijacked?
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Michele Sims
Re: Other traditional forms of music
go bang your drum and shut it saint
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by ecidralla
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I'm sorry if I offended you, saint, in using the term 'the British Isles'. I was aware of the connotations, but I don't know of another phrase that describes the geographical area I wanted to refer to. And the fact is that the cultures of all four nations have been intimately connected over a long period of time (millennia at least), and this cultural connection persisted despite the periodic oppression of one or more parts of that geographical group by one or more parts of the rest. Maybe we need a better, and less offensive term, than British Isles, but I feel it should be one that reflects the shared heritage.
"There is no social occasion in Conamara for example that doesn't involve a musician who plays traditional music, Irish traditional music, not Scottish, English, Bangladeshi or whatever." This is just sentimental nonsense. Ireland has developed, just like everywhere else has developed. Ireland has technology, like everywhere else. There are discos in Connemara, there are Country and Western nights - I haven't been to that part of Ireland for a while, but I would expect there are all sorts of other musical and social events as well - there always used to be in the past ...
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"The fantastically amazing Roundstone Summerfest is winding its way back this August for another 4 days of fun and craic! Traditional Irish music, Rock, Pop, Bluegrass, Jazz and Roots. Comedy, Beat-on-the-Street, Village Sports and much much more!"
Sounds like a regular festival virtually anywhere in Ireland, England, Wales or Scotland.
Mind you, I'm not saying you don't get fantastic traditional Irish music in many parts of Ireland, for my taste, especially in the West. In fact, I've argued before on this site that you don't really get it anywhere else ... But we shouldn't take on some sentimental pretence that there is some Irish utopia where everyone is deeply involved in traditional Irish music, to the exclusion of anything else. That strikes me as insulting - Ireland exists in the 21st century, just like everywhere else.
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Hey Benhall... if everyone in your utopia is involved with ITM to the exclusion of everything else, who's serving the drinks?
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Finbar Saunders2
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Well, I've only just joined this thread after coming back from a great Melave Malka with a very religious Jewish family. A Melave Malka is a sort of after-Sabbath party with a lot of singing and storytelling, and if anyone plays an instrument, they bring it along, and there'll be some music. So naturally, I brought my fiddle, and it turned out someone else had as well. Now this guy had only recently started playing, so he was shaky, but he had a very good ear, and he knew lots of niggunim (wordless songs). So, the upshot was that he taught me some niggunim, and I gave him a few fiddle-playing tips. Very nice. But by far, the main focus of the evening was not that, but the food, the singing, the storytelling. And most of all, the idle chat.
I think the reason Irish music has spread so much more widely than Klezmer and other types of folk music is that the Music is the biggest, although by no means only, part of Irish culture, and when you get a concentration of Irish culture - in the pub - the Music will play a lead role. In Jewish culture at least, and I suspect in other cultures as well, music will play a part, bu not as big a part as in Irish.
And to answer your question Jane: Yes, other people do play their own music as well.
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I don't think there is anything wrong with a bit of nostalgia - not letting go of, or celebrating, links with the past. I think it is particularly important to some members of oppressed Peoples around the world. Many humans feel a need to connect with the past in order to understand who they are today. If connections to family, tradition and culture are broken, by force or unfortunate circumstances, there is a sadness which some people can never overcome, and the hurt can last for generations and generations. People don't know who they are or from where they have come. Traditional musics and cultures have a very important role to play in self identity, whatever the circumstance and situation globally and through time.
We on the auld yellaboard turn to Irish Traditional Music for identity - and it really really does it fer us. If we didn't love it we wouldn't be here chatting in cyberspace now would we? (rhetorical)
I cannot blame some of the youth of today for encompasing pop culture rap hiphop grung whatever (I don't understand it at all, but what do I know, I'm ancient in their eyes) as so many of them do - as so many of us did in our youth. It is what inspires them now - turns them on, makes them feel alive and part of a community. Is this really any different to traditional communities? The communities are just broader, more global, as this thesession.org community is.
It seems to me that today's pop culture will be the nostalgia of tomorrow. Yet another tradition that people can turn to or not if they want to. Its all part of the evolving evolution of things. Nothing, quite literally, stays the same, its simply that some things change much quicker or slower than others.
Sooo, is it bad to be clinging to traditional forms of music, Irish or other? "No, of course not." If it helps people understand or define themselves for whatever reason, it can only be benefitial.
But, at the same time, any approach to any traditional culture should be a reverent one, which doesn't diss on those whose foundations are solidly grounded in the culture as it is evolving.
Enough of this. The day is grand. I just went out into the backyard, to be met by the fragrance of a ready Yorkshire pud wafting on the breeze - roast dinner - utopia - not mine unfortunately - Happy Easter to you all.
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Two things:
"We on the auld yellaboard turn to Irish Traditional Music for identity"
I don't. My identity, whatever that is, is Anlgo/European, and my strong connections with Ireland are part of that. But I don't want to use the music for the purposes of identity.
"How can music 'belong' to anybody. Well, if in the case of traditional music it is handed on (or down, or up as the case may be) it is handed from the care of one person, generation or whatever you want to call it, to the next one."
That seems to me like a good summary of how I understand the word "traditional". But the music we now call ITM is what I would call a "genre". Many of the people who play it are not Irish but are English, American etc., and most of those who play it (I strongly suspect - figures would be hard to get) did not learn it in the traditional way that kilfarboy describes. In most cases we did not learn it from our parents, uncles or leading musicians of the townland - we learnt it from the radio, recordings, CDs, printed tune collections, ABC files, mates at a nearby generic session, workshops with professionals. I don't mean for a moment to suggest that there is anything wrong with that - the opportunities we have in today's world are huge, and people can learn more with greater ease than in the past. But it's not strictly "traditional" any more than it's strictly "Irish" - these are just useful identifiers to distinguish it from, say, Scottish or English styles of music, or many of the more popular kinds of Irish music like C&W, rock, pop and so on.
Irish Traditional Music is a useful label, but most of what we do under that label is neither strictly Irish nor was it transmitted within a tradition.
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Charlie1000: I totally agree!
Did I mention utopia? If I did, it was in order to suggest that the romantic picture of the rural idyll where everyone is involved in traditional music round a turf fire is just that: romantic. I.E. a story.
Byt the way, for the avoidance of doubt, I think Ireland is a truly magical place. This seems to have something to do with the place itself, but also to do with the warmth of its people, and the very high level of culture in Ireland. But that extends way beyond traditional music ...
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Hell of a lot of romancic nonsence posted on this thread. I can dismiss this as mere twaddle, (not from benhall, charles d, pt and some others though). But if I met someone who had the attitude, "I might be born in England but my music is Irish, got it?" I'd be tempted to get angry.
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Could you expand on that last remark, Michael? It sounds interesting, but I know I'm not quite following what you mean ...
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I would strongly disagree with Mr Dodgon there. I firmly believe you will never ever get to the core of this music if you don't sit down with people who have it, really have it , and acquire it in the 'traditional' way (which in itself if a defining characteristic of a traditional music/musician).
This music is not a stand alone thing as put forward in this discussion before, it is part of a culture, and that is before I start on the old people and places malarkey.
Believing you can have it away from all that and get it off the internet, from books and CDs is either deluding yourself, or not realising what is really at the core of it and so missing out on something very vital to it.
And don't try dismiss what I see around me all the time as 'romantic nonsense', there's romantic nonsense of course but this is not it.
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
The English, Scottish, Irish, Northumbrian, Shetland, Norwegian, Breton (ie from the Brittany in France) and Cape Breton traditional musics are all linked in one way or another. Largely due to either geographical proximity or the dispersion of peoples from one area to another. They also all are forms of functional music, much of which was to provide social interaction through the medium of dance.
These days as far more people can play than can dance that social interaction is waning, and the one whereby we all sit in the pub and get drunk then go home and pontificate with people that we never will meet and have little in common with over the internet is growing.
I've deliberately avoided the phrase "ITM" in any of my posts here because I don't accept the term. It lingers between the macroscopic (whereby one would have to accept that the links between all the areas I listed initially create an entity) and the microscopic (where one would for example regard the Scottish Border style and the Highland fiddle style as differentiable). To try define in terms of political boundaries which have existed only since either 1916 or 1922 (depending on how one looks at it) seems futile unless the perpose is self-serving.
Why not just be happy being a member of your own tradition and work on building that up to be as strong as possible in your lifetime, and arm the next generations to carry it on?
Enough.
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Andy V
Spelling Police
Sorry, just for the spelling police I meant "purpose".
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I guess you meant to include Welsh music as well?
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I know this is kind of out of the blue, but I just wanted to firmly agree with a comment posted earlier. I'm from Newfoundland, Canada, and at the sessions here it seems that it's never exclusively Irish music being played. In fact, it would very strange to go to a session and not here some Newfoundland/Maratime tunes as well as the Irish ones. So as much as we can all enjoy the Irish tunes we play 'our own music' too.
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by dannym
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive." To quote Jeremy on the home page of thesession.org.
and you are soooo full of it yerself man. You have self appointed yourself as the authority on what is "right" and "wrong" in the playing of Irish traditional music - and this is as an Englishman from yer little enclave in Scotland. Your opinion, uncouth and unhelpful, as it usually is, is not respectful of anyone who does not lick yer boots.
then I ate a chocolate Easter egg mindful of the culture from whence chocolate came, drank a cup of coffee mindfull etc etc. Do I care if you think it romantic twaddle? Not one iota.
If you are not into keeping traditional Irish music alive, what are you doing on this site? Granted, this site is, thanks to Jeremy, a global one, but the focus is keeping traditional Irish music alive. Any approach to Irish traditional Music, or any other traditional music from anywhere around the world, should be respectful of the culture from which the music has sprung. Not romantic twaddle. Simple good manners.
And thank you Kilfaboy, because those people from outside the culture (and that includes me) should be mindful not to diss on those people who live and breathe the tradition. Just because the music has been shared globally does not make it any less part of the rich and diverse culture of people like yourself.
"Twaddle", Mr Mihcael Gill, is actually my word, for which I have a copyright on the yellaboard
Well, couldn't resist it. Made myself a Yorkshire pud mindful of the tradition from whence it came
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Oooops, I did omit Welsh music there
. Ironic as I am 1/4 Welsh 
Apologies to all involved!
I can't agree with much of the post above, but I'll avoid repeating myself by directing back to my initial post.
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Whoa, whoa, whoa. What's to say you can't learn Irish music from CDs, books etc.? I've got to admit, learning straight from someone who knows exactly what they're doing is good, but not essential. You don't need to be shown everything about the music by a master to appreciate it and enjoy playing it. I mean, Eric Clapton was never taught guitar by a master and he's one of the best guitarists in the world. So why would you need to be taught in the traditional way to play trad. music and to have a deep understanding of it. Not that I'm an expert of any sort in this kind of thing, that's just my opinion, and no offence to anyone who believes otherwise,
all the best everyone,
Dan
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by dannym
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Sorry, I meant to point out in that comment that Eric Clapton is one of the best blues guitarists of all time, even though everything he learned came from recordings (made in a foreign country by people of a different culture than himself) rather than blues masters. Sorry about that, I was kind of distracted half-way through that sentence. :P
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by dannym
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I am saying that you'll missing some essential things at the very core of Irish music if you learn it away from where it lives and without interaction with the culture that moves it. The problem is, those who do will never know what is missing so how to explain it?
# Posted on April 8th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Whoa, whoa, whoa (?). Well, no, you can't learn this music from from CDs, books etc.
The chief reason is variation. Books, of course, are suctsictley useless for this. And CDs are limited because of the tradition of only playing the tune three times
You have to play regularly with people who know the music.
So, and I agree, you have to learn the music where it lives.
And the most important point in this thread is that it doesn't only live in Ireland
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Well, some things, in all honesty, like ornamentation and certain regional styles of playing, can only best be learned through face to face instruction. However, if things are only learned this way, the "traditional" way, where's the room for the likes of Donal Lunny (who introduced the bouzouki into Irish traditional music) and other innovative traditional musicians. If it wasn't for people putting their own spin on Irish music because they were never taught to play it strictly one way and one way only, Irish music as we know it today would never exist. Just as the culture of a place is always changing, the music is always changing and with strict statements like "you can't learn this music from CDs, books etc." which allow little room for exception, the traditions can never change causing them to lose popularity. I think books/internet sites which try to teach the styles of playing are a brilliant way to keep the traditions alive and developping throughout the world and my hat is off to anyone who creates those sort of things, even if their work is not appreciated by those who are too wrapped up in doing things "right" to recognize the potential of these different styles of learning.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by dannym
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I can't really see internet sites 'teach' music very well. They can teach some technical aspects maybe. Anyway, I was going to say Donal Lunny had a thorough grounding in this music through his mother and the family's extended stays in the Donegal Gaeltacht of Ranafast (where his mother was from) where he also, at a very young age, developed close friendship with the O'Domnhail family (friends of his parents again, there you have a fair bit of social context you won't get through the internet or CDs) through whom he had first hand access to the music and traditions of the place.
Underestimating that, and believing he picked up a bouzouki and came out of nowhere is really foolish.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
DannyM I wasn't saying you were suggesting DLunny came out of nowhere by the way but I don think some people here underestimate how rooted and connected the great musicians really are.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_bouzouki please get your facts straight before talking crap dannym i provided a link so you can read up on the history of the irish bouzouki.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by ecidralla
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I don't think any crap was being handed out before you entered to be honest. Whatever you may want to think about it, Lunny pioneered playing styles and the new (flat) model of Irish bouzouki . Never mind that Moynihan was given a Greek bouzouki by Ronnie Drew earlier or that Lunny had to bum his first one off Irvine. I don't think he changed Irish music although he did change the way of accompaniment. When I think about traditional music I don't think about what bands etc are doing or what goes on on concert stages by the way.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
To be honest, I've already read that article and the one on the Greek bouzouki front to back even though I'm not really sure how much I trust Wikipedia, but yeah...
I kinda think this whole thing gets back to the original topic of this thread, because where do you think the non-Irish people playing in sessions learned their music from? Their parents? It seems to me that, increasingly, people are (besides learning the odd thing from other people) learning everything they can in every way they can (internet, cds etc.) just because they can, and why wouldn't they?
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by dannym
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Here in Southern Appalachia people get together to informally play music
quite frequently and in many places. Whether the genre is "Old-Time, Bluegrass,
Gospel or Country" or a mixture of these it's a very common and regular
occurance in many very small and relatively isolated communities.
People call them "Jams" and due to "Blue" laws and Conservative Christian
attitudes toward drinking these are usually held in places where no alcohol
is served. Country stores, community halls, etc. Anybody whoever spent
time in Souther Appalachia will know what I'm talking about. It's amazing
the percentage of the population that makes music for the simple of
fun of it.
Mr. Mike
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by Mr. Mike the Tavern Keeper
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I can identify very much with the non-Irish ITM player whose experience is charted by Charles Dodgson higher up this thread. I started with records and a tinwhistle (book) tutor, and took it from there.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Other traditional forms of music
An analogy might bee
:
I know - take that as you will.
A single bee can only carry what he can carry.
If you want honey you go to the beehive.
Not to say that each bee hasn't value, but it is each bee's contribution which adds to the flavour of the whole.
For me, at least, the hive is in Ireland where the royal jelly is.
Silly
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
good analogy, I like it. But there are many hives. And they are not all in Ireland.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Argh but they don't have the flavour I savour.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
And they are just bees, with only the honey they can carry. Not the whole honey pot.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
you missed the point, there are plenty of hives all aver the world. And Ireland is not one hive either, there are many hives there too
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
It's not your analogy, and YOU have missed the point. You have got hives confused with bees, you poor thing. Come sit at the desk over here and I'll explain it. Or then again will I bother?
Nah!
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Well, sorry for hijacking you analogy, but good luck if you think there is only one true flavour.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Wow! You've got it. Each bee carries honey of a different flavour. The hive is where you find all the different flavours. Of course there isn't one true flavour, clever of you to finally cotton on to that one, just like there is no ONE right way for EVERYONE to play or acquire the music. Congratulations. Well done.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Bees don't carry honey. They carry pollen.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Okay sorry I was being obtuse and pedantic for what I thought might be humorous effect. Your point about Irish music being a sum of the contributions of individuals is a valid one, and that there is a center of gravity for these efforts, which is in Ireland, I accept as well.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Other traditional forms of music
But where is the centre of Ireland?
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Michael is actually making a valid point here. Not sure whether I agree with it fully or not yet. Needs more pondering ...
I suppose it would be like saying that the music has gone beyond Ireland (assuming it was ever *just* there in the first place, wherever *that* might be) - bit like a particular type of animal spreading over a wider area than its origin and developing and changing its characteristics as it goes ...
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Good point, and I guess my thoughts are that the center of gravity is rather unfocussed. That’s evasive, I know, much as some would like to have it at CCE headquarters at 32 Belgrave Square. It’s kind of pointless as a practical question, I mean, what can it matter to me here in the US, really, when I get out the fiddle and bow and go at a few tunes? But it’s interesting to debate the number of cherubim on a pinhead.
I’m in the camp that the music has grown larger than it’s origins, like jazz or rock or classical art music, and belongs to a world made greater by this gift from Ireland. Still, there’s a historical weight and credit must be given to the originators.
To the topic of the thread, as a merkin I guess I should be playing bluegrass or rock. But bluegrassers jam in parking lots. Rockers get together in garages and basements. ITMers meet in pubs. Next question.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Of course it's gone beyond Ireland. But remember as well, that it didn't originate there either. I'll accept that people on the island of Ireland focussed it into the thing that we all love, but that was just a step on its way.
The whole concept that it has some sort of spiritual home in a geographic place is nonsense. Its spiritual home is in the spirited people who have studied and learned it and carry it with them. Try telling Liz Carrol that Chicago is not Ireland. It's an utter and complete irrelevance.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Thanks fidkid. Ah my how ignorant I am. I liked your humorous effect it made me laugh, then take some time out to read up a bit on bees.
So I now know that drone bees are "shes" not "hes" and they carry beepollen which is sticky on their legs, but they store the nectar (80% water) in a special pocket in their abdomens - hand the nectar over mouth to mouth to worker bees in the hive who work it into honey and deposit it in the honeycombe, then it is ventilated by other bees till it only contains 18% water before being plugged with wax into the combe. The worker bees excrete royal jelly, mainly, but not wholly, for consumption by the queen, who eats the jelly exclusively. Phew! Highly complex and a lot of work fer the bees, not obvious when I sit observing them coming to drink from one particular ceramic waterplant pot in my garden. I don't know why they choose that particular pot to the exclusion of all the others, but they do. Seems even bees make choices/have preferences.
As for traditional musics here in Central Oz, I don't really know what the choices are if you want to play and not just listen to someone else's gigs. Sessions are jam sessions where people do party tricks into the mic. Not my scene.
Cheers
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Cross post. I agree, of course, Michael that Irish Music has diverse origins - there has been a lot of movement around this world and a lot of mixing of Peoples and cultures everywhere. But much as I think Liz Carrol is fantastic, she is not the whole of Irish music, she represents Irish music from Chicago that's all. Just as "Undertones" represents Irish music from Oz, and Dale Russ recorded Irish tunes played in America. There is a spiritual home for it in Ireland it is part of the culture of those who wish to follow in, otherwise it isn't Irish traditional music, it is something else.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"it"
This is great, but its way passed time fer bed.
cherry pip!
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Ridiculous. "Liz Carrol represents Irish music from Chicago that's all." and, "There is a spiritual home for it in Ireland, otherwise it isn't Irish traditional music". Ridiculous. The whole concept that it has to be in Ireland to give it some form of cultural spituallity is just ridiculous. Please try to understand that it's people who play music, individuals, not nations.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Sleepwalking: zzzzzzzzz Huh! Tell the followers of Islam that Mecca is not a spiritual home in a geographic location. zzzzzzz
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
If you see your music as a religion, then there is no helping you.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
The well known pipe tune "Highland Cathedral" was composed by a German but who could deny that it's a Scottish tune?
Also, De Dannan's version of "Hey Jude" is Irish music as far as I'm concerned.
I know both of these examples are a little extreme but you can see what I'm getting at..hopefully.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Interesting all this ... First, on an aside, I'm assuming this might be a cultural/language difference - otherwise there's something seriusly wrong with Australian bees. And, by the way, drones ARE male, and do absolutely nothing ... except one thing (OK, they eat as well, but they definitely don't do any work, including gathering pollen/nectar). Which, I suppose, could be argued of some human males. Oh, and NO bee has any choice at all in their behaviour within the colony - it's all pre-programmed ... which, again, could be argued to be true of humans ...
Meanwhile, back on topic:
"Of course it's gone beyond Ireland. But remember as well, that it didn't originate there either." That's what I was trying to convey in my post, Michael. Except that I would amend to read : "didn't originate there in isolation" or "only there" or some such. Of course, it's always been part of a much bigger picture.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"If you see your music as a religion, then there is no helping you"
Well, Frankie Gavin is G-d, isn't he?
Ooh, bad joke. Sorry.
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Clear Drops, I would have to ask how much time you've spent in Ireland, the rest of the British Isles, Portland, Brittany, Cape Breton, Scandinavia looking for music and examining what you find? If you're from central Australia it isn't surprising you find it hard finding some people to play with. But I assure you, in a lot of England and most of Scotland, there is plenty going on and it's more based around the local traditions.
This music has never been (until recently) about cultural identity. It's about the social interaction of small communties from an era that no longer exists. Trad no longer serves a purpose, there can be few, if any, communities in Ireland where the population still gets together to dance. The culture/society that it was a part of no longer exists today. Apart from anything else, it stems from pagan religious practices which are no longer widely practiced today in Ireland (or, for that matter, any of the other regions in question).
# Posted on April 10th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Er ... I don't think it does stem from "pagan religious practices". I think you'll find that most, if not all, of the music originated out of secular Christian music, a lot of which was widespread throughout Europe, including Ireland, in the Middle Ages. Quite a lot of the music probably doesn't even stem from dance, but rather from song - see comments in various writings from O'Neill and others of his contemporaries. Of course, it's dance music now ...
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I wonder what Irish/Scottish music sounded like before Christianity took over?
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by morning star
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Thank you Andy. Just goes to show you can't believe everything about bees you read on the internet.
Just because someone has put it up on the internet doesn't make it so. Or maybe I just read it wrong - I'm happy to admit a mistake or two or three or more. No skin off my nose 
"I don think some people here underestimate how rooted and connected the great musicians really are." to quote Kilfaboy above. And just because someone is in Chicago or anywhere else in the world, nowadays, they can still remain rooted and connected to a culture with a spiritual and physical location somewhere else in the world, for example Islam, a global religion, and Mecca, Irish traditional music and Ireland. Irish traditional music is not a religion granted, but it is an aspect of culture - "the skills, arts, beliefs and customs of a group of people, passed on from generation to generation" to quote my dictionary. This is why Irish immigrants brought their music (and other aspects of their rich culture) with them where ever they went - to retain their rooted and connectedness to Ireland. It is when the rootedness and connection is dissed on, and people elsewhere in the globe take ITM on as if it is their own, but still retaining the tag Irish traditional music, that they are doing a disservice to themselves and to the culture from which the music sprang and is still springing.
So andy_newcastle tell the Irish people who still live the culture which includes Irish traditional music in Ireland that "The culture/society that it was part of no longer exists today." I am sure they would be very pleased to hear that one.
Anyway, the day is grande again today and I am off to do another voluntary stint cleaning out the Old Stuart Town Gaol. Very tiny - the exercise yard is only about as big as my lounge/kitchen room. The oldest masonary building in the Northern Territory and the oldest building still standing in town constructed of any materials. Alright so it was only completed in 1909 and is only old comparitively, but is integral to the culture I am newly arrived to here. Unfortunately it was borne of the culture of colonialism, and maybe we are still backward here in The Territory, primitive and undeveloped, uncivilised, young and niaive. May I never lose it and become cynical is all I can say.
Have a lovely day. I've really enjoyed the sparring and its nice to know that you have at least listened to me before you have shot me down in flames. Luv yous all.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I don't know where Andy/Newcastle gets his information but I live in a place where music has it's social function like it always had and is played for dances and at social gatherings in various different contexts but then I live in a West Clare that when I described in the past has been put down here as a silly romantic non existent notion.
And re cultural identity, this music has long been used as a vehicle for all sorts of means of nationalist and other political nature, cultural and national identity. For a lot of musicians it IS about that (whether we like it or not or whether it is right or wrong). Coincidentally I was talking to Mick O Connor yesterday who has written a history of the old Dublin Piper's Club. He told me a majority of the original founders were not musicians, they were nationalists and political in their motives as he said 'it was the thing to do' . Anyway, music is many things to many people and cultural/national identity is certainly part of the picture of some.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Other traditional forms of music
It's precisely because of the abstract nature of music that it is so easily appropriated.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I was at the Gaelic Roots festival a few years ago, and remember a very spirited discussion between two older musicians, one who said that the music of Ireland was pagan at its core and a sign of the persistence of the pagan spirit in the Irish people, and the other, obviously Christian, quite heatedly disagreeing with that assertion. Obviously, the music was abstract enough that these two opposing viewpoints could be held by two people who played and loved the same tunes!
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Other traditional forms of music
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/slan.htm
Here is an example of how music can bring people together, regardless of their culture
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Hmm, a number of interesting points whilst I was at work. Weellll, from the top down then: Ben, traditions such as "hunting the wren" (which occurs on the 26th Dec), which is supposed to help ensure a good harvest and the wren is used (and nailed to a cross) as it is the king of the birds. Certainly not any form of Christianity/Catholicism I've come across (I'm Catholic before anyone asks), although I'm a bit confused as to what "secular Christian" would be, the two seem a bit oxymoronic to me.
Clear Drops, I'm fairly sure the population of Ireland would actually be quite chuffed I don't think they don't have modern agricultural technology, cars, electricity etc and that times are somewhat different to how they were 150 years ago. I suppose it's a bit like seeing a person in varying stages of "growing up" - is an infant the same person as the adult they become? Does the infant still exist? The best analogy I could come up with (which could be regarded as slightly offensive which isn't how I meant it), but I think it clarifies what I meant.
Kilfarboy, where I get my information from? A couple of my friends were in an area known as "The Burren" (sp?) as part of a Morris dance side that was participating at a festival of dance. Firstly, the festival was cancelled, but more interesting is a report from a set dance they attended later in the week. They said, although it was well attended, it didn't exactly comprise a percentage of the population let alone a majority of it. Nonetheless, the turn out was regarded as "average". I wasn't there though and I don't know there area in terms of it's musical heritage, so I can't comment further than that.
From this I infered simply that there were few places where the *majority* of a community would be at a regular dance. So if the social context is that it connects the *whole* (say above 3/4) of the community (as opposed to a part of it which is what I suspect you describe) then I think my point holds.
Nontheless, I look forward to a morrass of misinterpretations for discussion tomorrow.
# Posted on April 11th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Other traditional forms of music
A lot of 'popular' music at one time (medieval time) was spread throughout Europe by 'wandering minstrels' - sounds like a joke now, but it was a living for some at the time. Their music was predominantly Christian in character and content, though not in any way associated with the church, or even condoned by the church.
Look up the word 'secular' - you'll find it means something different from what you imagined. It can even be applied to priests, but the usual modern meaning is simply 'not connected with the church'.
As far as I can make out from what I know of Irish music, what we know today didn't come from pagan roots - there may have been some influences a very long way back, but, for the most part, it comes from secular (ie non-church) Christian sources. Also, bear in mind just how old the influence of Christianity is in Ireland - and, for that matter, the rest of Europe as well.
When I studied music, a very long time ago, I was struck more than once by the similarity of certain jig tunes in the Historical Anthology of Music, from around the 11th and 12th centuries, to the Irish jigs I had been playing since I was a kid. These weren't pagan, but troubadour tunes and the like. That similarity in itself, of course, may mean nothing - it could be coincidence - but we know that that sort of 'popular' music, as well as more formal 'art' music and even 'church' music did spread, along with the instruments, all over the area known as 'the British Isles' which I wish I had a less controversial name for (phew!).
I know you're actually studying 'folk music' at the moment, so, if you have some different information, particularly about the pagan origin of Irish music - backed up by some sort of evidence - I would be extremely interested to read it.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Benhall.1 no panic about the British Isles issue but the british Isles to me just means the UK. You could say the british isles and Ireland thats if the Welsh and Scots are ok with that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute
Sorry for being picky but its a big part of my culture.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
If the strict definitions of the borders around where you live are a big part of your culture, and the music is also a big part of your culture, how do you reconcile that the music is blind to the borders?
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
llig British isles is a term that should be left behind so there are no boundries . Bristish Isles was a term used by Imperialist British for land they thought they owned as you said about the music i ll say it about the land . The British don't own Ireland nor do they have any rights to it.
I wonder are there any terms that you don't like e.g. Bodhran.
P.S. Llig you'll never understand my culture but some day I'd like to sit down with,have a pint and explain it all .
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
sorry "with you"
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
OK, thanks for the link, saint. Fairly explanatory, so that helps. However, the problem doesn't go away.
2 things:
1 I can't make myself say "the British Isles and Ireland" because to me that just doesn't make sense - no political problem for me, just it's factually wrong; and
2 'the British Isles' has never been "a term used by Imperialist British for land they thought they owned". It is, as pointed out in that Wikipedia article, politically neutral in England and Wales (I know these countries intimately - for all I know, it's politically neutral in Scotland as well, but I don't personally know that, which is why I'm being careful). Anyway, from an English/Welsh perspective it doesn't imply ownership at all. Just a geographic area. I can understand why *you* might use the term that way, but it's never been used by the English/Welsh in that way. In fact, if you read on in the links in wikipedia, you'll discover that the Romans referred to the islands making up the UK and Ireland as 'Britanniae', a term which is more or less a prototype for 'British Isles', so the thinking behind the term predates any British imperialist agenda by quite some way.
George Orwell said that there was only one non-politically charged name for Great Britain, which is Albion, a name of Celtic origin. So, we could have 'Albion and Ireland'. Isee Wikipedia suggests 'Great Britain and Ireland'. But it wasn't very long ago that the mere term 'Great Britain' was also highly politically charged.
Not easy, this ... I think I'll try 'Great Britain and Ireland' and see if anyone objects ...
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
"Great Britain and Ireland" is just too much of a mouthful, and it is visibly a construct that is attempting to be "politically correct" in someones eyes, which also makes it uncomfortable.
"British isles" is a perfectly good term. It is clear from its structure that it refers in the first place to physical geography, i.e. to the islands, and handily includes Shetland, Orkney, Arran, Isle of Man, Channel Islands, the island of Ireland, even including Sherkin Island (which some would like to declare independent, I know) regardless of how ruling powers have changed and perhaps will change.
For the sake of a few people who have a problem with it I would be willing to use something else *if and when* there were a clear, simple, easy and meaningful alternative.
I am serious, saint - if you have a *good* alternative, I'll use it for your sake and that of the other people to whom it seems to matter.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Other traditional forms of music
See? I can't win ...
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
But living in that delightful town you don't need to
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Ben,
It's an interesting one that sadly I can't attempt to clarify at the moment as I'm in York and away from all the resources I would usually have access to. Nontheless, when I get back I'll endevour to find out (I'll send you my findings as that won't be for a week or so). I wasn't attempting to place origins for the dance music, I purely meant some of the ritualistic practices which were allied to the same way of life as the music was appeared to be quite firmly pagan in origin (re: the wren example). Given the fiddle wasn't invented till after 1500 then certainly I'm not suggesting the tunes were composed by sun-worshipping druids!
My confusion about "secular Christian" came from me interpreting it to mean "non-religious Christian" which on second consideration kind of makes sense if Christian is taken to mean to period of history as opposed to the religion.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Britain? British Isles? Great Britain? Ireland? Eire? England?
Surly, the trick is not to care. The music doesn't care.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Thanks Benhall1 for putting up with my objection . I did say it was a term used by Imperialist at a sensitive politcial time . From my studies this annoyed me .
I hate to say it llig is right its about the music.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Look lets just call it the Irish Isles
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I’ve been thinking about this discussion for several days now, maybe because, as an American, the original question strikes home. It occurs to me that maybe a tradition belongs to no one, but a person can, through fortune and effort, belong to a tradition.
Another thought was to rephrase the question: “I’m of French descent through my wife’s grandmother, so of course I like French fries. What I ‘d like to know is, why do _you_ like French fries?”
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Freedom fries ... if you please. The term Frech Fries comes from a bla bla bla
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Well there’s no real harm I think in putting a nationality on the
music.
Just as long as people don’t come out with the “ there has to
be some irish in your blood to play it” bull.
I mean I’m Irish – but people could say well if you go back far
enough your eastern European…or further still you’re African…
or further still, you’re a fish.
I’m not going to go around saying I’m not Irish – I’m of the
World.
Even though it doesn’t really mean anything.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by BegF
Re: Other traditional forms of music
good man. A slice of pragmatism at last
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Na can 't let the British Isles subject go "The Irish fought a war of independence nearly 100 years ago to be Irish and not British. And they won it."
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I can do no better than repeat the words of an Irish Embassy spokesman in London quoted by The Times of London a few months ago: "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage." Amen to that!
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Good on you Saint! I don't think Londoners would be too happy if we tried to say that they resided on the Irish Isles. All musical considerations apart, I think the term "British Isles" when applied to Ireland belongs to a dark colonial past and should be consigned to the dusbin of history where it now belongs.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Welcome to www.borders-r-us.org where we discuss national boundaries and the definitions of said enclosed tracts of land, while trying desperately not to offend. (music has no relevance, of course, as the wind whistles it high above the cartographers' demarkations)
Saint, let it go.
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
We are trav'ling in the footsteps
Of those who've gone before,
And we'll all be reunited,
On a new and sunlit shore,
Oh, when the saints go marching in
Oh, when the saints go marching in
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by BegF
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Practically every tourist organisation in every county along the banks of the Shannon refers to it as "the longest river in the British Isles" - perhaps those who are unhappy with the term should tackle them first.
Inability to distinguish between geographical and political terms is another symptom of the fuzzy thinking which has even permeated the Irish diplomatic service. I wonder if he thinks Irish traditional music is also has a "dated ring". What kind of convoluted thinking does it require to hold traditional music dear while strenuously jumping on a commonly used and harmless phrase because it has a "dated ring to it", all the while using the term "spokesman" instead of "spokesperson"?
I suppose the ability to express several contradictory opinions at once is an enduring if not always endearing human trait. The sort of thing bigots in this neck of the woods used to call "Irish"
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Bren
Re: Other traditional forms of music
brilliant
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ...
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I had a huge reply all typed out and everything to this, but for some reason, probably because it took so long, it hasn't appeared on the thread. At least I don't think it has. But my thanks go to Beamish Boy - the first (and only?) person to mention the Isle of Man in any form! The crux (is that a word) of my contribution was that just because we over here on this rock are more commonly known for cats without tails and fast motorbike racing, it doesn't mean that we don't have our own music - we're all proud of it, but we do recognise that, like the language, there are similarities with Irish music and also Scottish music. We are (through several means) trying to get our music to a wider audience, but it appears to be a long process. However, I'll freely admit myself that I have been heavily influenced by Irish music, to the point of doing my MA at Limerick, but I genuinely don't feel it has taken over my style and general influences. Does that make sense? I hope so, I've been researching 'Rivers' for the past 3 hours, so please excuse me if it doesn't!
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ManxFiddle
Re: Other traditional forms of music
Is your fiddle missing a tailpiece, MF?
saint, happy to acknowledge your concerns, and it doesn't strike me as particularly unusual for a term which may have been in use for a couple of thousand years becoming tinged with the politics of a particular era - at any rate, for a time.
Thought your "Irish Isles" was quite funny, actually. Might use it myself for a bit - trouble is, people will probably see it as ironic, and you, and I, will be back to square one.
Now ... what was the question? Ah yes, taking pride in 'your own' music. Mine's designated 'Irish', and I'm quite proud of it. It's been like that for the vast majority of my life, and I'm too old to change that now, rightly or wrongly ...
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I would like to be light hearted as often as possible. I'm not telling people not to use the term British Isles nor am I anti British, but I personally won't recognise the term because over a period of time, a lot of people died for Ireland's independence.
To link something to Ireland geographically or politically takes from Ireland's independence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence
# Posted on April 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Other traditional forms of music
I'm afraid I hear a bit too much of "f3f gg c f|gfed A2 z2|a2g2 f/d/g/e/ a/f/e/d/|A2e2 d2:|]" in some of the previous posts. Lets look to a better future and move with the times; even Martin and Big Ian were in agreement last week that Peter should vacate the castle!
# Posted on April 13th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Other traditional forms of music
When Irish Isles are smileing
# Posted on April 13th 2007 by Saint