This can be a big problem in certain sessions and it would seem that the more experienced the musician, the worse it can be. People who are learning or are more self-conscious tend to be more considerate when it comes to tuning. When I play the accordion, playing a loud “A” every so often seems to prompt people to tune up, but if I’m playing fiddle I can’t do that. I sometimes drop hints and suggestions that perhaps “we should all tune up” but the worst culprits don’t think it applies to them.
I have bought electronic tuners for 2 musicians (at their request). Someone suggested that I buy a tuner for everyone in the session and I have considered that, but can’t really afford/justify it. One fiddler joked, “Is that the equivalent of buying someone under-arm deodorant?” Maybe I could get a grant for a bulk buy of tuners?
I’m not a perfectionist when it comes to everyone being in tune, and I know it can be difficult in noisy pubs, but just a little bit closer would be nice. I find my intonation goes to pot when I’m reasonably confident my fiddle is in tune but those around me aren’t.
Last week the session was particularly “woolly” and when I left the pub, another musician leaving at the same time said to me, “I need inspiration and that wasn’t it”. The next day the Google quotes of the day said, “You can’t wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club” Jack London. So, should I beat everyone with a club who isn’t in tune?!
So my question is, how do we solve this problem? How do you politely tell someone they’re out of tune without offending them? I’m thinking some gentle and witty remarks might be the way to go as we’re talking about good musicians, not newbs.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
There's nothing that p*sses me off more than out of tune instruments and people who can't be bothered to tune them properly. One concertina player at my session was saying that he was in the middle of doing some fine tuning but that he still wasn't happy with a couple of the notes (fair enough as it's not really something you can do in the middle of the session). I said "is it your G?", he said "yes, but it's only 3 cents out - I thought nobody would notice". 3 cents really isn't very much, and most people wouldn't notice it, but I do. You can imagine that a quarter tone or so just sends my head spinning. I can't be done with the "worst culprits" who "don’t think it applies to them", and I'd rather just get it over with and make no bones about it. Instead of making gentle remarks, I've taken to saying something like "your E string's sounding a bit flat there, can we tune up?", or "I think your head joint needs to come out a bit" in a tone of voice that says "you don't have any choice in the matter". I know it sounds a bit rude or whatever, but I'm over being gentle about it. People have to know that tuning is important in the big scheme of things.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
The question was how do you politely tell someone they’re out of tune without offending anybody? Well my trick is to blame myself for not being in tune by saying "We don't sound in tune do we? I think it might be me."
This usually starts a frantic minute or two of knob twidling by everybody . . and then "Oh It wasn't me after all, it was you in the corner bird brain " !
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
The only job that goes away when you ignore it is drying dishes. Confront the offenders politely but firmly. Electronic tuners may not be everyone's cup of tea, but at least they are an "impartial observer" when someone doesn't want to face the obvious.
Since we started using electronic tuners at our local session, pitches have definitely improved. And I have a personal rule, I never play my whistle if someone else is playing one. I put mine down, as they are hard to keep in tune with each other, and even if you get the As lined up, notes in the upper register can vary enough to set your teeth on edge.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
If you think that such direct comments won't work or are inappropriate for whatever reason, you can try my other tactic, which is to join in for the 1st few bars of each tune and then put your instrument down so that the person knows that you're not joining in for some other reason than that you don't know the tune. They will probably then ask "why aren't you playing - is there something wrong?", to which you can reply "I'm not in tune with you". If you play concertina like me, it's easy, they realise they have to tune up to you. If you play something like fiddle, you can say either "I just tuned up using my electronic tuner, so you can get an A off me if you like", or if you're tuned to someone's free reed instrument which isn't in concert pitch, you can suggest they tune to their A.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I've found it's not a thing you need to tiptoe round people about. If someone is out, just say to them "are you out?" or "are you in tune?" then give them an A on the box. Very rarely would anyone be offended. I wouldn't be - in fact I'd apologise if I was out. I think. Then I'd promptly tune up.
Might be different in more "precious" sessions.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
On the use of electronic means, the trick I think is not to let the tuner rule, or necessarily A=440, but to find someone who can't tune easily, like the tina, and set the tuner by that instrument, and then, focus set, you can tune to either the tuner or the tina, or whatever other instrument you might use...
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Concertina players have a responsibility to tune up too, only they should do it in advance of the session. If you don't know how to do it yourself, send it away to a repairer and pay them to do it. Concertinas and boxes in Irish sessions these days should be at A=440. Instruments in any other pitch like Sally Army etc can sound really nice. My tina was in SA pitch when I got it. I wouldn't take it to a sesh and expect everyone to tune to me, tho'. I spent time with it and tuned it first. If you're worried about the sound quality deteriorating after retuning, fine, but in that case leave it at home and get another concer for use in the session.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
On the matter of flautists -- I think some people who switch to the flute, or are just beginning do not actually know how to tune.
Even though they might be using an electronic tuner, I have found in the session that I attend, other flautists tend to put the tuner on the table and look down at it to tune. This inevitably causes their pitch to drop through the floor, and when they pick their head back up to play, they wonder why they are incredibly sharp.
Since flute tuning is so sensitive to embochure ( I know I can go at least a quarter tone, probably more either way without moving the headjoint!) asking inexperienced flautists to use an electronic tuner may not help and may actually make the problem worse, because it gives them the false sense of security that the machine has said that they're in tune.
If you can (nicely) ask or encourage them to listen to people around them and tune accordingly -- it would not only develop good ear habits, but maybe fix some underlying session tuning problems.
(wow my 2 cents became at least 5 or so in there ^_^)
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I bought a T-shirt that says
TUNE IT OR DIE.
Highly recommended...
It injects a little humor, but still keeps the concept in front of the group as something that does matter.
I do sympathize with the flautists (I'm a fiddler, and my wife plays flute). The flute's a nasty instrument in that regard, since it climbs in pitch when it warms up. And the point made above about tuning while looking down is well taken. You have to help a beginner player to tune "as they will be playing the thing", or the effort's for naught.
I'm also the de facto "session leader", so >>I<< get to be Captain Bringdown when the tuning gets out of hand. That's a drag, and the T-shirt helps!
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
It's all very well to encourage people to use their eyes to tune (electronic tuners), but the fiddle player still has to play in tune when s/he isn't on the safe playing field of a tuned open string. Until players are capable of tuning their instruments by ear - after taking a reference from another source, obviously - they're not likely to have much success in playing in tune with their fingers.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
You flute players are the worst. You never compensate for the fact that your instrument is going to warm up as the night goes on, and you're *all* sharp, *all* of the time
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Kriana ~ top note, and at least worth a fiver...
Dow, you miserable old git (and I'm the one with a toothache) ~ some sessions I've had in Eire were not A=440, for example with old boxes and needing a flute or whistle in Eb to make a reasonable stab at it... I'm not one for tyranny, 440 or electronic, I could have told the old geezer to f-off if he couldn't bother to have an instrument in A=440, but it would have been my loss. I can manage a few cents this way or that, and if it is a large step, there are other options, like just sitting back and enjoying a listen...
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
We have one older fiddler here who just plays and never tunes quite right, also true with his old leaky flute. I don't ask him to make the adjustments, he's in his 80's and part of the problem is probably his ears. I adjust as best I can to where he is, and bear the discrepancies with some humour ~ and love for this old fiddler... As do others who choose to play along with him. Part of the additional challenge is making the changes, with him a simple AABB tune may morph into other combinations...
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I agree with the others who suggest soemthing along the lines of 'I don't think we're in tune..... and a sugestion that you both do something about it'. It certainly doesn't offend me.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Aha, well, we'll just have to agree to differ on this one, 'c'. Sitting back and listening is great, of course. But. People go to sessions because they want a drink and a chat, and to play some tunes with their mates, without the added complications of an Eb box, and needing Eb flutes and whistles. An Eb box to me sends out a message, and I'm afraid it's not a good one. It says "I'm going to play now and I know you won't be able to play with me but that's ok because I'm fantastic, so you should just sit back and listen". Sorry, but that's not my ideal for a session. A famous player from Ireland did the Eb trick here in Sydney a while back, and it ended up being a situation where it might as well have been a concert. It wasn't a session I was involved in running at the time, but if it happened now, I'd probably have the guts to say something. I don't care how famous and special you are. If you come to a session here then you have to want to play with the people here and engage with them. Otherwise, erm. They can eff off. Sorry.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I wouldn't tell anyone to "eff off" in those words.
But look, I'm not into hero worship. If you're in a sesh you're there to play a few tunes with your mates, and you should have respect for other musicians whether you're famous or not.
I very much doubt if Sharon Shannon would come to our session when it's in full flow and totally take over the session. If she did, then someone would have something to say, believe me.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
When I say "take over" I don't mean "by starting tunes". It's always great to have someone come in from outside and start some tunes and get the session going. Everyone would love that. It's when it gets to a situation where it's like a concert and all about "look at me". That's not good.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Wind instruments, such as flutes and whistles, have pitch that can vary considerably due to embrochure, amount of breat support, etc. While they are not as fluid in pitch as the fretless violin, wind players need to learn to hear the pitch and match it themselves. No amount of electronic tuners can help a player who doesn't hear and properly adjust to the pitch of the other instruments.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Serendipity. At last night's session, someone brought a plastic toy fish, a tuna. The instant joke was that it was the tuner fish--like a talking stick, it got placed in front of whoever wasn't in tune as a signal to tune up. Injected a bit of fun in the evening.
When collective intonation starts to get owly, someone in our circle usually just shouts out "Let's tune up," and we tune to the fixed instrument(s) or to the guitar (who usually has an electronic tuner clipped to her peghead).
The other now-accepted signal that somenone's out is we start laughing during a tune. Two or three of us will howl like hungry dogs.
With the exception of the plastic fish, all of the above avoid placing the blame at any one person's feet, so everyone tunes up.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
With regard to Dow's comment I can say there's no way to please everyone, form experience (I play mainly on an other than concert pitch instrument) I know the begrudgers are always out there. When you're not playing (because you don't want to impose your own pitch on the rest of the company) you get questioned why you're not playing (probably thinks they're to good, the tossers) and if you do you get the odd dirty look or slamming door because you're elitist and playing in an unusual key to keep the riff raff out.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Re: ceolachan's paragraph about the old fiddler in his 80s. That's kind of different. By the age of 80 I think you're probably a bit set in your ways I'd take ceolachan's approach in that case...
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Hey guys, Dow is sending me hate mail via the site...
Yeah spoon, the bloody pile of torn clothes and moaning after the session & Dow were through with them...
Dow, I thought you'd take 'miserable old git' as a sign. I do like winding you up, sometimes. I'd better be careful, I have thinner skin than you do. Bliss has blistered me unintentionally a few times, him and his Indian sunburn arm twisting...
Those examples I gave are not good in a big session, except maybe on a very small scale, or in a small setting. You seem to have taken that I was on about superstars with the Eb thing. Yes, I've known that too, folks that use it to exclude, but you should know me well enough to know that isn't what I mean, but to really pull that off you tease them and play in E. I have several old instruments that are in old tunings, about a half a step sharp, or roughly Eb. I also have at least one other of all of those that is A=440, but back to the old pitch, that used to be the case with brass instruments and all sorts. A=440 is a relatively new phenomenon, and that can and has changed too recently, and been under discussion internationally.
In my travels I've come across folks who weren't full of themselves and would hardly be exclusive, were in fact the opposite, very welcoming, but had instruments that were not modern pitch. I've come across it with concertinas, melodeons, and winds. I've come across it in Munster, Ulster & Leinster, different situations. Mostly, it wasn't people doing it to be exclusive, that just happened to be the instrument they had.
In one case, a flute, when they pulled it way out so the A was 440 the rest of the instrument sounded like shight, and deeper the further away from the A they got, so we played in Eb. We also did this because the several other flutes that might have worked at 440 were in pieces, but that is another tale...
For a big session, like yours in Sydney, it would be an affront to impose too much of that sort of thing on the regular scene. You have a 440 session, that is your tradition, and I would say that should be respected. I wouldn't show up with an Eb instrument. A lot of my sessioning has been in small settings, with just a few of us, and I don't have a problem with adapting to the needs of others in such a setting, as I have time and time again. With the flute player there were only three of us, him, a fiddler, and me.
With the fiddler mentioned previously, it is usually similarly set, as the big sessions generally have little or no time for him, have no understanding. Having been to them they haven't got much to really complain about, sounding as they tend to like a traffic jam, that badly out of tune. To be kind, we'll call it WET tuning, very wet... Hey, that fiddler frustrates the hell out of me with his tuning, wavering intonation and tempos and missing parts, but I also respect him enough to set that aside and to try not to put him on the spot. He's in his 80's and I hope I have some of his spirit when I'm there. Besides, I really like his smile and sense of humour. If I let him know my aggravations all that would go. Actually, because of those irritations and problems, we've made a space for him, and I now play music with him, biting my tongue, almost weekly. I also don't like his settings of tunes, so it isn't just tuning and lost parts, but we always have a good laugh...
Who loves yuh Dow? ~ We agree here too I think, but there are exceptions to every rule and irritation...
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Whenever I've been in a teaching situation, individual or group, I ALWAYS deal with tuning, and tuning, and tuning ~ as being an integral part of being considerate when you enter together with others to make music... I even at times have us play out of tune just to torture my students... I also make them dance... So, I must admit, I too am obsessed by it, despite my sins of being out of tune now and then, instrumentally or spiritually...
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Of course I was never trying to wind you up 'c', implying that you liked to be associated with the exclusive Eb, "look-at-me" crowd. I knew you'd hate that
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
~ you just want me to retune you know who and hand her over to you... No way Jose... I've had a good talk with her and she says your fingertips are too rough anyway, and you hit her keys at an angle and strained her springs... Pushing her reeds wasn't going to make her sound any flatter. You can't exactly bend reeds on a box like you can on a harmonica, don't yuh know...
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Dow is correct. Up with it you should never put. No-one has the right to put you through a whole evening's misery because they're disinclined to check their tuning for a couple of minutes. The major warning sign is the guitar that comes out of its case "ready to play" (i.e. tuned at home to save time). I can't do anything about my fine-tuning in the pub but he can so he should - very simple. I'm working on being courageous enough to slap my instrument down and refuse to play. It can get very touchy with these guys even with maximum diplomacy (so maybe I'm not the right guy ).
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Guitars, there are only six strings to them. You want a challenge ~ what about harpists...
I had to go away and think some more, about an issue that has been part of this discussion and also involved several other threads over time, on the one side the issue of 'social v performance', and on the other 'being / setting and example v making an example of someone'... Here's the tale that came to mind, a small very social session, at most only a dozen folks, often less, very social, and no flash players, though there may be one or two that think they are. Hey, in this situation there is no chance of balance as there is nothing for them to compare themselves to. Being in tune was of little concern, except to me. I made my gentle nudges of suggestion.
One night we were playing along and there was this one person who was very out of tune, painfully, so much that I did as one suggestion has it, put the instrument down. After that set I got their attention and mentioned that they were sharp and could we tune up to the reeds of another player there. I noticed they looked a bit put out. It being a small setting and intimate the request to tune was heard by all, and I thought "no problem then." The next time we got together the person I'd questioned about their tuning didn't show. I was told they had said they had an engagement elsewhere. So, I took no notice of it, except for missing their presence.
The next time they were absent again. I was taken aside afterwards and told that I was the reason they weren't coming, because I had questioned their tuning openly before everyone else. Damn, that was taken very personally. I shouldn't have to say it, but in a very small and social setting the absence of one person who was a regular is noticed, they are missed, in tune or not.
I was told I needed to call them and make my apologies... I guess, in a sense, instead of setting a good example myself, directing the action toward myself, as far as needing to be in tune, again a suggestion made here in this thread, would have been the way to go. This time I guess I read the person wrong, missed being 'diplomatic', and put them on the spot, made an example of them, which wasn't my intention. I just wanted to be able to enjoy the music and the sounds coming from others better ~ which I think playing in tune facilitates.
That's where I'm not as strong as some others seem to be. The idea that I would have affected someone so much that they stopped going to their regular social session, well, I hate that and felt awful about it. I know that some people can take teasing and some can't, some can take a wee bit of criticism and others take a small comment and blow it all out of proportion. Sometimes I knew when not to tease or comment, and sometimes I let it slip and regret it afterwards.
The clue in this question from fiddlebabe is "encourage" ~ how do we 'encourage' everyone to play in tune? I am sometimes damned clumsy and fail on the want to be diplomatic about such things, especially in a situation like I've mentioned ~ small, intimate and social ~ no hot shots or superstars, just regular folk striving to play a little music in some reasonably recognizeable way...
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Exactly Ceol. Harps usually have 34 strings & Dulcimers 50 + so 4, 6 & 8 stringed instrument players, really have no excuse, do they! But let's face it, even if you only played a one string Chinese Fiddle, you should still be prepared to keep it in tune.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
"It's ok for you to be an Eb snob in the comfort of your own home, 'c'".
This only makes me muse that the best way to tell somebody they need to tune is to come back next week and have everybody's fiddle pitched in C. They scratch their heads for a while, hearing the flat step and plucking their strings over and over for the whole first set. It gives you the added laugh factor when they say, "I think you guys are all out of tune!"
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
"You can tune a guitar, but you can't tuna fish."
Tim Robbins, Even Cowgirls Get The Blues.
Is a celochan a tuneable fish, then ?
I'm sure there was a previous discussion about someone who was so sure his box was in tune, when it wasn't, that all the rest of the session would stop playing when he started, and in the end he left in a huff, never to return, because he wouldn't take a hint. And people had told him, but he wouldn't listen.
We had a bit of a crisis, previously discussed here, about tuning a flat wooden whistle - more or less sorted now. My SO has now got so sensitive to tuning issues she gets flummoxed if a fiddle-player is a bit off on their intonation, and starts hurriedly trying to retune her flute - not so easy, following a fiddler with poor fingering intonation. On the other hand my older english concertina should be nominally a bit off pitch but no-one has ever complained if I'm playing it instead of the retuned and refurbished one. ( Perhaps they're scared of me ? As if ! )
Never heard of any box players of any sort tuning themselves, though, think that's a job for the professionals.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Harmonicas are nearly always tuned above A440, typically A442-ish. The reasons given for this are multifarious and mostly bullsh!t. A harp tuned thus sounds nice and bright with more conventionally-tuned instruments. But it will not sound sharp. You'd have to be at A444 or above for the average listener (what the hell's one of those!) to detect it as "sharp." I feel sorry for Dow and his 3-cent sensitivity. The avearge session must be bloody murder for him.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
As a fluter who has been told by Dow that I am out of tune I can tell you he does it in a quite acceptable way.
But on behalf of fluters I want to stress that a lot of people don't appreciate the problems of flute tuning. Only the other day a fiddler asked me for an A to tune to - and there were plenty of free reeds (and electronic tuners) around the table! I flatly (tarrradannn!) refused, of course, on the grounds that it would be a waste of time, and not just because of my limitations, simply because I play flute.
Moving the slide is only ever a compromise. Whether the flute is in tune up and down the scale, and whether the octaves are in tune with each other are neither of them simple questions. Embouchure affects pitch, but not equally up and down the scale. Terry McGee's site is full of discussions of this whole field. Interestingly, the experts (I'm thinking particularly of Terry and Hammy Hamilton) do not agree on what pitch the makers of mid-19th century really had in mind as the "proper" pitch - was it towards the bottom of their tunable range, with the option of playing higher, or was it towards the top of the flutes' range, with the option of playing lower?
When an A gets played for everyone to tune to, I do not bother, but that is not because I don't care. I know from experience *roughly* where the slide wants to be, and if someone plays an A I can play a matching A. I can then still be badly out of tune.
The only effective technique for the flute is to start about right and listen for the overall effect when the playing gets going, and then adjust the tuning for the best compromise. That's not easy, especially when, as is often the case in a session, at least some of the other instruments are out of tune. It really is helpful if an outsider says "I think you are a bit flat/sharp".
The motto, of course, has to be "I'd rather be sharp than out of tune!"
My estimations suggest that the lore about flutes getting sharper as the evening goes on is not as true as is widely held, but this is probably not the place to go through the engineering of that. It's probalby truer than the chestnut about water going down the sink the other way as you cross the equator, but I suspect that the effect is quite small. I'd be really interested in controlled measurements - anybody?
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
'c', I don't think you did anything wrong that time and you shouldn't feel bad. That person was just over-sensitive, and also quite arrogant to think that their feelings were more important than the enjoyment of the group as a whole. It was especially arrogant to "punish" you by not coming anymore. Some people think they don't have anything to learn from other people, and it's those people you *don't* want to be playing this music with.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Yeah, I've seen your bellows... I know, but I really hate what I imagine it does to the instrument... Bending the notes is pushing or pulling a bit too much for my tastes...though it doesn't bother me with the harmonica. Do you actually use it at all?
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
So the flute's not easy to play in tune eh? So bloody what. All you have to do is learn to play the thing. Excuses, excuses, bloody excuses. Blaming your tools indeed. "Ooh I'm really sorry I'm not in tune, but it\s really hard you know". Feck off
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Feeling sweet and charming as ever are we? What a nice man you are!
I'm so sorry if my inferior attempt to be triflingly informative got up your precious and honourable nose, but the way you hold your head does make your nostrils point forwards.
It's OK llig, I've read enough of your posts to know your posting style. What are you like in real life?
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Micheal's right though
Every flute should come with a little card that says "This is not a fixed tuning instrument. Part of learning the flute is learning to hear and correct tuning problems. But relax, it's probably easier than the fiddle." Then there would be a little statement about how "I, the undersigned hereby acknowledge my responsibility to tune to others to the best of my ability, and to accept that this particular instrument may have QUIRKS, of which I am not currently aware." And then a line for you to sign and put the date, and again for the witness (witnesses, in some jurisdictions).
See? Now, after you've been playing for 10 years, your friends can point to the little card when you start getting out of hand, and you'll just have to deal with it. Or, no more free pints!!
I'm just trying to say that it would be better if people learned from the beginning that the flute is not an absolute-pitch instrument like an accordion, and they're the only ones who can do anything about it.
I've got at least one student who's fallen into this trap, and I've never been able to convince him that he has to work on tuning his upper octave if he's going to be any fun to play with.
Hey! Would you mind sorting him out if he shows up at your session?
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Gzeg, I agree with all of what you say, and in fact I agree with what I think llig in his rude and unpleasant manner may also have meant. That was also pretty much what I was trying to say, except that I was adding one thing: there is not a lot of point in "tuning a flute to an A". You can do that perfectly and still be badly out; what the fluter has to try to get right is the compromise across the full range.
Not everybody knows that - as you suggest, there are even flute players who haven't grasped it.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
no, it's not a compromise with the flute, like it is with a fretted instrument with their compensating bridges etc. The beauty of the flute, as with the fiddle, is you can play it bang on.
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
In my experience it's far and away the fiddle players in sessions who can't get their intonation right. That and the out-of-the-case-and-play-it guitar brigade. Play bang on at all times, eh, Michael? How would you know?
How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
This can be a big problem in certain sessions and it would seem that the more experienced the musician, the worse it can be. People who are learning or are more self-conscious tend to be more considerate when it comes to tuning. When I play the accordion, playing a loud “A” every so often seems to prompt people to tune up, but if I’m playing fiddle I can’t do that. I sometimes drop hints and suggestions that perhaps “we should all tune up” but the worst culprits don’t think it applies to them.
I have bought electronic tuners for 2 musicians (at their request). Someone suggested that I buy a tuner for everyone in the session and I have considered that, but can’t really afford/justify it. One fiddler joked, “Is that the equivalent of buying someone under-arm deodorant?” Maybe I could get a grant for a bulk buy of tuners?
I’m not a perfectionist when it comes to everyone being in tune, and I know it can be difficult in noisy pubs, but just a little bit closer would be nice. I find my intonation goes to pot when I’m reasonably confident my fiddle is in tune but those around me aren’t.
Last week the session was particularly “woolly” and when I left the pub, another musician leaving at the same time said to me, “I need inspiration and that wasn’t it”. The next day the Google quotes of the day said, “You can’t wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club” Jack London. So, should I beat everyone with a club who isn’t in tune?!
It occurred to me that this subject may have been discussed before on this forum and here it is:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/5701/comments#comment120941
So my question is, how do we solve this problem? How do you politely tell someone they’re out of tune without offending them? I’m thinking some gentle and witty remarks might be the way to go as we’re talking about good musicians, not newbs.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Fiddlebabe
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Veiled insults?
Try: "Some people play so out of tune, don't you agree?!?"
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Just a joke by the way.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
There's nothing that p*sses me off more than out of tune instruments and people who can't be bothered to tune them properly. One concertina player at my session was saying that he was in the middle of doing some fine tuning but that he still wasn't happy with a couple of the notes (fair enough as it's not really something you can do in the middle of the session). I said "is it your G?", he said "yes, but it's only 3 cents out - I thought nobody would notice". 3 cents really isn't very much, and most people wouldn't notice it, but I do. You can imagine that a quarter tone or so just sends my head spinning. I can't be done with the "worst culprits" who "don’t think it applies to them", and I'd rather just get it over with and make no bones about it. Instead of making gentle remarks, I've taken to saying something like "your E string's sounding a bit flat there, can we tune up?", or "I think your head joint needs to come out a bit" in a tone of voice that says "you don't have any choice in the matter". I know it sounds a bit rude or whatever, but I'm over being gentle about it. People have to know that tuning is important in the big scheme of things.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
The question was how do you politely tell someone they’re out of tune without offending anybody? Well my trick is to blame myself for not being in tune by saying "We don't sound in tune do we? I think it might be me."
This usually starts a frantic minute or two of knob twidling by everybody . . and then "Oh It wasn't me after all, it was you in the corner bird brain " !
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Justintime
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
The only job that goes away when you ignore it is drying dishes. Confront the offenders politely but firmly. Electronic tuners may not be everyone's cup of tea, but at least they are an "impartial observer" when someone doesn't want to face the obvious.
Since we started using electronic tuners at our local session, pitches have definitely improved. And I have a personal rule, I never play my whistle if someone else is playing one. I put mine down, as they are hard to keep in tune with each other, and even if you get the As lined up, notes in the upper register can vary enough to set your teeth on edge.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
If you think that such direct comments won't work or are inappropriate for whatever reason, you can try my other tactic, which is to join in for the 1st few bars of each tune and then put your instrument down so that the person knows that you're not joining in for some other reason than that you don't know the tune. They will probably then ask "why aren't you playing - is there something wrong?", to which you can reply "I'm not in tune with you". If you play concertina like me, it's easy, they realise they have to tune up to you. If you play something like fiddle, you can say either "I just tuned up using my electronic tuner, so you can get an A off me if you like", or if you're tuned to someone's free reed instrument which isn't in concert pitch, you can suggest they tune to their A.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I just thought, I could bring tins of tuna to the session and give them out to people, saying "I thought you needed a tuner".
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Fiddlebabe
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I've found it's not a thing you need to tiptoe round people about. If someone is out, just say to them "are you out?" or "are you in tune?" then give them an A on the box. Very rarely would anyone be offended. I wouldn't be - in fact I'd apologise if I was out. I think. Then I'd promptly tune up.
Might be different in more "precious" sessions.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
On the use of electronic means, the trick I think is not to let the tuner rule, or necessarily A=440, but to find someone who can't tune easily, like the tina, and set the tuner by that instrument, and then, focus set, you can tune to either the tuner or the tina, or whatever other instrument you might use...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
You can tuna piano, but you can't tuna fish!
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I still can't quite believe Dow has started openly harrassing the flautists...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Concertina players have a responsibility to tune up too, only they should do it in advance of the session. If you don't know how to do it yourself, send it away to a repairer and pay them to do it. Concertinas and boxes in Irish sessions these days should be at A=440. Instruments in any other pitch like Sally Army etc can sound really nice. My tina was in SA pitch when I got it. I wouldn't take it to a sesh and expect everyone to tune to me, tho'. I spent time with it and tuned it first. If you're worried about the sound quality deteriorating after retuning, fine, but in that case leave it at home and get another concer for use in the session.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
On the matter of flautists -- I think some people who switch to the flute, or are just beginning do not actually know how to tune.
Even though they might be using an electronic tuner, I have found in the session that I attend, other flautists tend to put the tuner on the table and look down at it to tune. This inevitably causes their pitch to drop through the floor, and when they pick their head back up to play, they wonder why they are incredibly sharp.
Since flute tuning is so sensitive to embochure ( I know I can go at least a quarter tone, probably more either way without moving the headjoint!) asking inexperienced flautists to use an electronic tuner may not help and may actually make the problem worse, because it gives them the false sense of security that the machine has said that they're in tune.
If you can (nicely) ask or encourage them to listen to people around them and tune accordingly -- it would not only develop good ear habits, but maybe fix some underlying session tuning problems.
(wow my 2 cents became at least 5 or so in there ^_^)
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Kriana
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
How about the direct aproach, something like a polite
Hey Mary, sounds like you're a bit out of tune, wanna take a second and tune up?
I would appreciate someone saying that to me.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Antikhntr
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
yes, c - don't let tuners rule:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12520/comments#comment255531
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I like Kriana's comment about flute tuning. Great info.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Yehbut we flute players already knew that.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I like it key... How'd I miss that bit?
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I bought a T-shirt that says
TUNE IT OR DIE.
Highly recommended...
It injects a little humor, but still keeps the concept in front of the group as something that does matter.
I do sympathize with the flautists (I'm a fiddler, and my wife plays flute). The flute's a nasty instrument in that regard, since it climbs in pitch when it warms up. And the point made above about tuning while looking down is well taken. You have to help a beginner player to tune "as they will be playing the thing", or the effort's for naught.
I'm also the de facto "session leader", so >>I<< get to be Captain Bringdown when the tuning gets out of hand. That's a drag, and the T-shirt helps!
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Steve Austin
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
It's all very well to encourage people to use their eyes to tune (electronic tuners), but the fiddle player still has to play in tune when s/he isn't on the safe playing field of a tuned open string. Until players are capable of tuning their instruments by ear - after taking a reference from another source, obviously - they're not likely to have much success in playing in tune with their fingers.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
You flute players are the worst. You never compensate for the fact that your instrument is going to warm up as the night goes on, and you're *all* sharp, *all* of the time
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Kriana ~ top note, and at least worth a fiver...
Dow, you miserable old git (and I'm the one with a toothache) ~ some sessions I've had in Eire were not A=440, for example with old boxes and needing a flute or whistle in Eb to make a reasonable stab at it... I'm not one for tyranny, 440 or electronic, I could have told the old geezer to f-off if he couldn't bother to have an instrument in A=440, but it would have been my loss. I can manage a few cents this way or that, and if it is a large step, there are other options, like just sitting back and enjoying a listen...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Some fine electronic tuners also have tone generators, which offers another option, but I would still prefer an instrument over a whine anyday...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
We have one older fiddler here who just plays and never tunes quite right, also true with his old leaky flute. I don't ask him to make the adjustments, he's in his 80's and part of the problem is probably his ears. I adjust as best I can to where he is, and bear the discrepancies with some humour ~ and love for this old fiddler... As do others who choose to play along with him. Part of the additional challenge is making the changes, with him a simple AABB tune may morph into other combinations...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I agree with the others who suggest soemthing along the lines of 'I don't think we're in tune..... and a sugestion that you both do something about it'. It certainly doesn't offend me.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by mehere
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Aha, well, we'll just have to agree to differ on this one, 'c'. Sitting back and listening is great, of course. But. People go to sessions because they want a drink and a chat, and to play some tunes with their mates, without the added complications of an Eb box, and needing Eb flutes and whistles. An Eb box to me sends out a message, and I'm afraid it's not a good one. It says "I'm going to play now and I know you won't be able to play with me but that's ok because I'm fantastic, so you should just sit back and listen". Sorry, but that's not my ideal for a session. A famous player from Ireland did the Eb trick here in Sydney a while back, and it ended up being a situation where it might as well have been a concert. It wasn't a session I was involved in running at the time, but if it happened now, I'd probably have the guts to say something. I don't care how famous and special you are. If you come to a session here then you have to want to play with the people here and engage with them. Otherwise, erm. They can eff off. Sorry.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Dow, would you tell Shazza Shannon to eff off then?
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Fiddlebabe
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I wouldn't tell anyone to "eff off" in those words.
But look, I'm not into hero worship. If you're in a sesh you're there to play a few tunes with your mates, and you should have respect for other musicians whether you're famous or not.
I very much doubt if Sharon Shannon would come to our session when it's in full flow and totally take over the session. If she did, then someone would have something to say, believe me.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
When I say "take over" I don't mean "by starting tunes". It's always great to have someone come in from outside and start some tunes and get the session going. Everyone would love that. It's when it gets to a situation where it's like a concert and all about "look at me". That's not good.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Wind instruments, such as flutes and whistles, have pitch that can vary considerably due to embrochure, amount of breat support, etc. While they are not as fluid in pitch as the fretless violin, wind players need to learn to hear the pitch and match it themselves. No amount of electronic tuners can help a player who doesn't hear and properly adjust to the pitch of the other instruments.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Serendipity. At last night's session, someone brought a plastic toy fish, a tuna. The instant joke was that it was the tuner fish--like a talking stick, it got placed in front of whoever wasn't in tune as a signal to tune up. Injected a bit of fun in the evening.
When collective intonation starts to get owly, someone in our circle usually just shouts out "Let's tune up," and we tune to the fixed instrument(s) or to the guitar (who usually has an electronic tuner clipped to her peghead).
The other now-accepted signal that somenone's out is we start laughing during a tune. Two or three of us will howl like hungry dogs.
With the exception of the plastic fish, all of the above avoid placing the blame at any one person's feet, so everyone tunes up.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
With regard to Dow's comment I can say there's no way to please everyone, form experience (I play mainly on an other than concert pitch instrument) I know the begrudgers are always out there. When you're not playing (because you don't want to impose your own pitch on the rest of the company) you get questioned why you're not playing (probably thinks they're to good, the tossers) and if you do you get the odd dirty look or slamming door because you're elitist and playing in an unusual key to keep the riff raff out.
There's that too you know.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Show them pictures of people that *didn't* play in tune.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by granama
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Re: ceolachan's paragraph about the old fiddler in his 80s. That's kind of different. By the age of 80 I think you're probably a bit set in your ways
I'd take ceolachan's approach in that case...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Hey guys, Dow is sending me hate mail via the site...
Yeah spoon, the bloody pile of torn clothes and moaning after the session & Dow were through with them...
Dow, I thought you'd take 'miserable old git' as a sign. I do like winding you up, sometimes. I'd better be careful, I have thinner skin than you do. Bliss has blistered me unintentionally a few times, him and his Indian sunburn arm twisting...
Those examples I gave are not good in a big session, except maybe on a very small scale, or in a small setting. You seem to have taken that I was on about superstars with the Eb thing. Yes, I've known that too, folks that use it to exclude, but you should know me well enough to know that isn't what I mean, but to really pull that off you tease them and play in E. I have several old instruments that are in old tunings, about a half a step sharp, or roughly Eb. I also have at least one other of all of those that is A=440, but back to the old pitch, that used to be the case with brass instruments and all sorts. A=440 is a relatively new phenomenon, and that can and has changed too recently, and been under discussion internationally.
In my travels I've come across folks who weren't full of themselves and would hardly be exclusive, were in fact the opposite, very welcoming, but had instruments that were not modern pitch. I've come across it with concertinas, melodeons, and winds. I've come across it in Munster, Ulster & Leinster, different situations. Mostly, it wasn't people doing it to be exclusive, that just happened to be the instrument they had.
In one case, a flute, when they pulled it way out so the A was 440 the rest of the instrument sounded like shight, and deeper the further away from the A they got, so we played in Eb. We also did this because the several other flutes that might have worked at 440 were in pieces, but that is another tale...
For a big session, like yours in Sydney, it would be an affront to impose too much of that sort of thing on the regular scene. You have a 440 session, that is your tradition, and I would say that should be respected. I wouldn't show up with an Eb instrument. A lot of my sessioning has been in small settings, with just a few of us, and I don't have a problem with adapting to the needs of others in such a setting, as I have time and time again. With the flute player there were only three of us, him, a fiddler, and me.
With the fiddler mentioned previously, it is usually similarly set, as the big sessions generally have little or no time for him, have no understanding. Having been to them they haven't got much to really complain about, sounding as they tend to like a traffic jam, that badly out of tune. To be kind, we'll call it WET tuning, very wet... Hey, that fiddler frustrates the hell out of me with his tuning, wavering intonation and tempos and missing parts, but I also respect him enough to set that aside and to try not to put him on the spot. He's in his 80's and I hope I have some of his spirit when I'm there. Besides, I really like his smile and sense of humour. If I let him know my aggravations all that would go. Actually, because of those irritations and problems, we've made a space for him, and I now play music with him, biting my tongue, almost weekly. I also don't like his settings of tunes, so it isn't just tuning and lost parts, but we always have a good laugh...
Who loves yuh Dow? ~ We agree here too I think, but there are exceptions to every rule and irritation...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Whenever I've been in a teaching situation, individual or group, I ALWAYS deal with tuning, and tuning, and tuning ~ as being an integral part of being considerate when you enter together with others to make music... I even at times have us play out of tune just to torture my students... I also make them dance...
So, I must admit, I too am obsessed by it, despite my sins of being out of tune now and then, instrumentally or spiritually...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Of course I was never trying to wind you up 'c', implying that you liked to be associated with the exclusive Eb, "look-at-me" crowd. I knew you'd hate that
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Hey, those international discussions ~ guess which direction they are pushing for? ~ sharp ~ so from D toward Eb...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Funny this, I'd been playing one of those half step up instruments this morning when I saw this discussion...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
It's ok for you to be an Eb snob in the comfort of your own home, 'c'.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Dow is correct. Up with it you should never put. No-one has the right to put you through a whole evening's misery because they're disinclined to check their tuning for a couple of minutes. The major warning sign is the guitar that comes out of its case "ready to play" (i.e. tuned at home to save time). I can't do anything about my fine-tuning in the pub but he can so he should - very simple. I'm working on being courageous enough to slap my instrument down and refuse to play. It can get very touchy with these guys even with maximum diplomacy (so maybe I'm not the right guy
).
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Guitars, there are only six strings to them. You want a challenge ~ what about harpists...
I had to go away and think some more, about an issue that has been part of this discussion and also involved several other threads over time, on the one side the issue of 'social v performance', and on the other 'being / setting and example v making an example of someone'... Here's the tale that came to mind, a small very social session, at most only a dozen folks, often less, very social, and no flash players, though there may be one or two that think they are. Hey, in this situation there is no chance of balance as there is nothing for them to compare themselves to. Being in tune was of little concern, except to me. I made my gentle nudges of suggestion.
One night we were playing along and there was this one person who was very out of tune, painfully, so much that I did as one suggestion has it, put the instrument down. After that set I got their attention and mentioned that they were sharp and could we tune up to the reeds of another player there. I noticed they looked a bit put out. It being a small setting and intimate the request to tune was heard by all, and I thought "no problem then." The next time we got together the person I'd questioned about their tuning didn't show. I was told they had said they had an engagement elsewhere. So, I took no notice of it, except for missing their presence.
The next time they were absent again. I was taken aside afterwards and told that I was the reason they weren't coming, because I had questioned their tuning openly before everyone else. Damn, that was taken very personally. I shouldn't have to say it, but in a very small and social setting the absence of one person who was a regular is noticed, they are missed, in tune or not.
I was told I needed to call them and make my apologies... I guess, in a sense, instead of setting a good example myself, directing the action toward myself, as far as needing to be in tune, again a suggestion made here in this thread, would have been the way to go. This time I guess I read the person wrong, missed being 'diplomatic', and put them on the spot, made an example of them, which wasn't my intention. I just wanted to be able to enjoy the music and the sounds coming from others better ~ which I think playing in tune facilitates.
That's where I'm not as strong as some others seem to be. The idea that I would have affected someone so much that they stopped going to their regular social session, well, I hate that and felt awful about it. I know that some people can take teasing and some can't, some can take a wee bit of criticism and others take a small comment and blow it all out of proportion. Sometimes I knew when not to tease or comment, and sometimes I let it slip and regret it afterwards.
The clue in this question from fiddlebabe is "encourage" ~ how do we 'encourage' everyone to play in tune? I am sometimes damned clumsy and fail on the want to be diplomatic about such things, especially in a situation like I've mentioned ~ small, intimate and social ~ no hot shots or superstars, just regular folk striving to play a little music in some reasonably recognizeable way...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Exactly Ceol. Harps usually have 34 strings & Dulcimers 50 + so 4, 6 & 8 stringed instrument players, really have no excuse, do they! But let's face it, even if you only played a one string Chinese Fiddle, you should still be prepared to keep it in tune.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
"It's ok for you to be an Eb snob in the comfort of your own home, 'c'".
This only makes me muse that the best way to tell somebody they need to tune is to come back next week and have everybody's fiddle pitched in C. They scratch their heads for a while, hearing the flat step and plucking their strings over and over for the whole first set. It gives you the added laugh factor when they say, "I think you guys are all out of tune!"
--DtM
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Tune one instrument to concert with a tuner, tune the rest to that. Wasn't that easy?
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Dan, you're the man... I like that, it's right up my sense of humour street...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
"You can tune a guitar, but you can't tuna fish."
Tim Robbins, Even Cowgirls Get The Blues.
Is a celochan a tuneable fish, then ?
I'm sure there was a previous discussion about someone who was so sure his box was in tune, when it wasn't, that all the rest of the session would stop playing when he started, and in the end he left in a huff, never to return, because he wouldn't take a hint. And people had told him, but he wouldn't listen.
We had a bit of a crisis, previously discussed here, about tuning a flat wooden whistle - more or less sorted now. My SO has now got so sensitive to tuning issues she gets flummoxed if a fiddle-player is a bit off on their intonation, and starts hurriedly trying to retune her flute - not so easy, following a fiddler with poor fingering intonation. On the other hand my older english concertina should be nominally a bit off pitch but no-one has ever complained if I'm playing it instead of the retuned and refurbished one. ( Perhaps they're scared of me ? As if ! )
Never heard of any box players of any sort tuning themselves, though, think that's a job for the professionals.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Hey Ptarm, I hope you notice I didn't mention hammered dulcimers?
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Tom Robbins, not Tim Robbins.
Both good blokes, though.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Guernsey Pete, you have to stop carrying your Bowie knife to sessions...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Actually, that might not be what has them deferring to your greater girth, it may be the Daniel Boone outfit and the coonskin cap...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Harmonicas are nearly always tuned above A440, typically A442-ish. The reasons given for this are multifarious and mostly bullsh!t. A harp tuned thus sounds nice and bright with more conventionally-tuned instruments. But it will not sound sharp. You'd have to be at A444 or above for the average listener (what the hell's one of those!) to detect it as "sharp." I feel sorry for Dow and his 3-cent sensitivity. The avearge session must be bloody murder for him.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
average innit.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
There's a thing about "offending people" that needs to be put into perspective. Some people get offended by stuff that is clearly not offensive.
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Don't I only know it! Amen!!
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
You lookin' at me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME?
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Yeah. Whaddya gonna do about it, punk? Huh?
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
As a fluter who has been told by Dow that I am out of tune I can tell you he does it in a quite acceptable way.
But on behalf of fluters I want to stress that a lot of people don't appreciate the problems of flute tuning. Only the other day a fiddler asked me for an A to tune to - and there were plenty of free reeds (and electronic tuners) around the table! I flatly (tarrradannn!) refused, of course, on the grounds that it would be a waste of time, and not just because of my limitations, simply because I play flute.
Moving the slide is only ever a compromise. Whether the flute is in tune up and down the scale, and whether the octaves are in tune with each other are neither of them simple questions. Embouchure affects pitch, but not equally up and down the scale. Terry McGee's site is full of discussions of this whole field. Interestingly, the experts (I'm thinking particularly of Terry and Hammy Hamilton) do not agree on what pitch the makers of mid-19th century really had in mind as the "proper" pitch - was it towards the bottom of their tunable range, with the option of playing higher, or was it towards the top of the flutes' range, with the option of playing lower?
When an A gets played for everyone to tune to, I do not bother, but that is not because I don't care. I know from experience *roughly* where the slide wants to be, and if someone plays an A I can play a matching A. I can then still be badly out of tune.
The only effective technique for the flute is to start about right and listen for the overall effect when the playing gets going, and then adjust the tuning for the best compromise. That's not easy, especially when, as is often the case in a session, at least some of the other instruments are out of tune. It really is helpful if an outsider says "I think you are a bit flat/sharp".
The motto, of course, has to be "I'd rather be sharp than out of tune!"
My estimations suggest that the lore about flutes getting sharper as the evening goes on is not as true as is widely held, but this is probably not the place to go through the engineering of that. It's probalby truer than the chestnut about water going down the sink the other way as you cross the equator, but I suspect that the effect is quite small. I'd be really interested in controlled measurements - anybody?
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
'c', I don't think you did anything wrong that time and you shouldn't feel bad. That person was just over-sensitive, and also quite arrogant to think that their feelings were more important than the enjoyment of the group as a whole. It was especially arrogant to "punish" you by not coming anymore. Some people think they don't have anything to learn from other people, and it's those people you *don't* want to be playing this music with.
And PS, you can bend notes on a concertina.
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by Dow
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Yeah, I've seen your bellows...
I know, but I really hate what I imagine it does to the instrument... Bending the notes is pushing or pulling a bit too much for my tastes...though it doesn't bother me with the harmonica. Do you actually use it at all?
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
So the flute's not easy to play in tune eh? So bloody what. All you have to do is learn to play the thing. Excuses, excuses, bloody excuses. Blaming your tools indeed. "Ooh I'm really sorry I'm not in tune, but it\s really hard you know". Feck off
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Feeling sweet and charming as ever are we? What a nice man you are!
I'm so sorry if my inferior attempt to be triflingly informative got up your precious and honourable nose, but the way you hold your head does make your nostrils point forwards.
It's OK llig, I've read enough of your posts to know your posting style. What are you like in real life?
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
this is real life
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Real to you maybe - I have another one.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Micheal's right though
Every flute should come with a little card that says "This is not a fixed tuning instrument. Part of learning the flute is learning to hear and correct tuning problems. But relax, it's probably easier than the fiddle." Then there would be a little statement about how "I, the undersigned hereby acknowledge my responsibility to tune to others to the best of my ability, and to accept that this particular instrument may have QUIRKS, of which I am not currently aware." And then a line for you to sign and put the date, and again for the witness (witnesses, in some jurisdictions).
See? Now, after you've been playing for 10 years, your friends can point to the little card when you start getting out of hand, and you'll just have to deal with it. Or, no more free pints!!
I'm just trying to say that it would be better if people learned from the beginning that the flute is not an absolute-pitch instrument like an accordion, and they're the only ones who can do anything about it.
I've got at least one student who's fallen into this trap, and I've never been able to convince him that he has to work on tuning his upper octave if he's going to be any fun to play with.
Hey! Would you mind sorting him out if he shows up at your session?
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Gzeg
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Gzeg, I agree with all of what you say, and in fact I agree with what I think llig in his rude and unpleasant manner may also have meant. That was also pretty much what I was trying to say, except that I was adding one thing: there is not a lot of point in "tuning a flute to an A". You can do that perfectly and still be badly out; what the fluter has to try to get right is the compromise across the full range.
Not everybody knows that - as you suggest, there are even flute players who haven't grasped it.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
no, it's not a compromise with the flute, like it is with a fretted instrument with their compensating bridges etc. The beauty of the flute, as with the fiddle, is you can play it bang on.
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Tell that to the experts
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
In my experience it's far and away the fiddle players in sessions who can't get their intonation right. That and the out-of-the-case-and-play-it guitar brigade. Play bang on at all times, eh, Michael? How would you know?
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
I think it's mainly all these pesky harmonicas and the like. Millions of them, drowning out the more unusual instruments such as fiddle.
There they all are, in every session, like a vile, out of tune mouth organ orchestra. Out of tune and out of time.
Thank goodness us lone fiddlers aren't like that!
# Posted on April 6th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: How do you encourage everyone to play in tune?
Watch it, pal, or I'll change my name back to equal temperament!
# Posted on April 7th 2007 by Steve Shaw