I've always thought "slow sessions" would be a good place for people that are just learning the music, but after having slow sessions around for a while I'm not so sure. It seems like the people who are learning that come to the regular session learn the music better. They will show up as listeners for a while, and then come later with their instruments and gradually learn the tunes. The more courageous have their instrument out in case a tune they know comes up, but if we see an instrument we'll usually ask them for a tune. I think that’s why others come as listeners at first.
When I compare the people who learn like this to people I hear from slow sessions, their playing seems a little more on the spot for some reason. I suspect it might have something to do with how they're influenced. Also, I'm getting some bad feedback from punters who are in the pub on slow session night and it has come to the publican's attention. Perhaps slow sessions shouldn't be held in pubs if they happen at all. But I wonder if those folks would be better off joining us at the regular sessions since the quality of the music at slow sessions might not be as inspiring.
Of course there are some problems that can happen if a learner tries to dominate the session or make it cater to them, and they can be disruptive if they noodle, but all learners aren't like that. My experience is that many of them are polite and have good common sense, and for that reason they are very welcome at the sessions.
Could it be that the people who start out at the slow sessions are learning their instruments and music in general at the same time as they are learning the tunes, whereas those who bypass the slow sessions already know music, know how to play their instruments, and are merely picking up the tunes and the style at the regular session?
I remember going to a pub where they have session rooms that people can rent out. However, it was the only one that I know of that does that. I am not sure if any other pubhouses does that as well.
I prefer going to sessions as a punter than going to performances myself. Performers can get quite loud... and are sometimes not aware that they don't sound as good when they are drunk. However, that's my two cent.
That's one of the reasons that we stress that our session is a "Tune Learning Session", and not a "Slow Session". We teach (and learn) tunes, but we push people to be able to work what we've learned up to "session speed" over time.
We also encourage people who come to go to other sessions to listen, and eventually to join in.
There are people who get stuck in the "slow session" idea, and think that's all they need, instead of using it as a stepping stone.
Gary, the ones that have already learned there instrument in another genre make the best progress, but they never show up at slow sessions that I'm aware of. I'm comparing the people who are learning how to play their instrument at the same time their learning the tunes. My comparison isn't scientific; it's just conjecture based on limited observation. But I was curious what other people have noticed regarding this... if anything.
Seriously though... slow sessions should take place in pubs. In big cities, if you just recently moved and don't know anyone -- where would you go? Go to the local or nearby pub and make friends. However, to keep business flowing of punters for the owners and musicians to have the venue of their choice -- we need to come up with a reasonable solution that will work out in everyone's favour.
I know at my local pub, on session nights, business is slow. I still go if I don't want to particapate just to support the business -- even if I am a lonely guy watching a bunch of people getting high of the music.
Heh, that actually happens with our tune learning session. We work on the tunes often at a couple of notes or one phrase at a time. It's horrible to listen to, and we clear the place out.
Fortunately, we do it at a coffee shop during a time that they don't usually have a whole lot of customers. And the tune learners buy lots of coffee too. So it works out
We did our tune learning sessions at someone's house, not in a public place. We also held them only once a month, if that, and encouraged people to go to the weekly sessions even if just to listen.
But the tune learning sessions died off here--now people just pick up tunes at the regular session (by ear or by recording it). Four out of the core seven of us frequently pick up tunes on the fly at the regular session (and the other three welcome this because it's how they get us to play their tunes).
We're a small enough group of players--it's easy for us to get together on the spur of the moment, or set aside a few hours one afternoon, to swap new tunes. Often just two or three of us do this, at home or sometimes in a pub, learn a couple new tunes, and then play a bit. Much more casual and spontaneous than a specific session for learning tunes.
Yeah, it helps when everyone is experienced. I learn tunes on the fly now fairly often. And I can't stand learning tunes a couple of notes at a time anymore. I much prefer to learn a tune in big chunks in a one on one with someone.
I do like TEACHING tunes at that speed, though, because it is a really great way to actually learn more about a tune that you already play, and gives you a chance to think about variations and different ornaments.
But our tune learning session has enough turn-over that we pretty much always end up teaching tunes slowly.
We had a case in Bristol a few years ago where the pub landlord killed off a perfectly good session that had gradually turned into a tutorless learners' slow session for a variety of reasons.
I can see that landlord's point of view; that pub is used a lot for music events on other evenings, and he not unreasonably thought that an unguided LSS wasn't exactly going to attract the punters.
My favorite way to learn tunes is to hear them in the session enough so that I can hear them in my head later on when no session is on. These tunes will come up while I'm at the session and I'll get the impulse to play them not realizing I've never actually learned them. If I've gone this far with a tune, then I'll actually learn it and it seems effortless. Also, I don't struggle to remember how it goes after learning it.
Yeah, I'm the same way. If I've heard a tune in sessions for a long time (and maybe even more or less picked it up along the way), then officially "learning" it takes about 4 minutes
I finally get to speak from experience!!! I played at my very first session last week and it was a beginner session. They didn't play very slowly, though, I'll tell you that much. Some tunes went faster than my teacher plays them! I started off one jig and about 20 people joined in, and it went fine. I probably could have done the same thing in a regular session, but it wasn't the difficulty factor that worried me---it was the fear factor. I was terrified!
To me, that's the real advantage of beginner sessions---the intimidation factor is much, much lower. And I don't mean that experienced session players themselves are intimidating---it's more the reality of the situation---playing in public when you're still shaky on your instrument, learning to listen to what's going on around you---it's all new and fearsome territory, and it's nice to know that most of the other people around you are feeling it too.
I plan on doing this a few more months just to get used to it and then try a real session---I figure then I'll be playing better and more confidently and I'll know more tunes, so it's more likely to be a successful experience.
PS---a huge THANK YOU to everyone on this website who gives encouragement and advice to us newbies. You all are so helpful, it's really wonderful.
If we were to slow the tunes down a bit so we could hear the tune clearly instead of galloping every single one so that they all sound the bloody same . . (a critisim made by lots of Jo soaps ie punters), ie. "der it all sounds the same . . diddly diddly diddly", we might get a lot more interest in ITM.
When I started out a good while ago, I attended a so-called slow session once. It definitely was not the place for me to be although I was learning my instrument at the same timel.
Reasons:
- extremely slow tempo learning new tunes and also playing them. I could learn tunes that much faster on my own at home. And playing the tunes too slow simply kills them for me.
- no teaching or input regarding proper ITM style, ie. you'd just learn the bare-bones tune, no ornamentation, bowing patterns, etc. This also has the effect that e.g. fiddle players with classical background tend to keep playing in classical style.
It is mostly a session for learning tunes at a veeeerrry sslloooww tempo.
Also, since everybody there is more or less at the same level (i.e. no advanced players except for the leader(s)), there is really nobody to "imitate" or to choose as some sort of "role model".
I was lucky to be invited to play with the "big boys" and found it extremely inspiring and motivating. I wanted to play ITM, and that was something I only could find at a real session.
However, there are a lot of people that enjoy this particular slow session and have been going there for years... (without ever "graduating"). Maybe that's an important clue. Maybe it's a low pressure environment among equals, whereas at a "real" session, they wouldn't know that many tunes, couldn't keep up the speed etc. and would feel somewhat pressured to practice much more than they are able or willing to and learn a ton of new tunes. Since they have been going there for so long, it doesn't seem to me that they feel they're missing out on anything and get plenty out of the social environment as well.
From what I know about those musicians, they are generally by far not as much obsessed with Irish music as those that attend the regular sessions in town. There are also some people who IMHO will never advance beyond the beginner's level session (lack of time, obsession, enthusiasm, ambition, interest, skill...).
Where would they go if they didn't have their slow session?
I think it's great if there is a slow session in town, but I would always encourage anybody who is serious about ITM and willing to learn not just the tunes and the instrument, but the style as well to go to as many normal sessions as possible.
(Kennedy - oh, thank GOD, it's about freakin' time ;) Glad it went well - here's to many more!)
My fiddle teacher runs two sessions - a slow session for beginners, which he holds in his store; and an everyone-welcome session in a nearby pub. The everyone-welcome session apparently began as a slow session, but over time sped up, which gave rise to the slow session. I have been playing fiddle for nine months, and have attended both of these sessions.
I far, far prefer the pub session. The music is a lot better, for one. I also play better at it; at the slow session, sad to say, most of the newbie fiddlers are playing out of tune and their rhythm is off, which makes it a lot harder for me to stay on pitch and on time. Without the skill to hold my own when surrounded by people who play differently than I, I veer toward the style of the other players. When I'm surrounded by people who are far more skilled musicians than I, I feel my own playing nudged in that direction.
Kennedy's point about the fear factor is a good one, though; I get around it by playing in a rather large session (40 people the other week), where no one can hear me if (when) I mess up. (The other week, a newcomer made a beeline for me, of all people, between tunes to request permission to record the session. I felt reassured by this; it confirmed that it is not glaringly obvious to bystanders that I'm an absolute beginner.)
Thanks for the encouragement, TDM---you're the main person who got me thinking I had to do it sooner rather than later.
I agree that beginner sessions can be harder in some ways---one guy was tapping his foot waaaaay off beat---so distracting! But I guess it's good, too, because I'll have to learn to play with distractions anyway. I'll see how it goes over the next few weeks. And I still go to the real sessions just to listen and to make friends. Gotta get to know everyone---it's a pretty small community for such a big city---we have more people here than in all of Ireland, and only a few hundred people who play Irish music, if there are even that many.
Kennedy beware, pride comes before a fall, I speak from experience. That feeling of being a poor player, inadequate not being worthy? I hate to tell you but I have been happily playing in sessions for years and it never goes away. I get on great with my fellow players and I know mostly I play fine and sometimes I even play well, but believe me I still get that "sh*t, I really ballsed that up" feeling on a regular basis. So if you want to play this music (and your names not McGoldrick) get used to it and remember its about stretching yourself and having fun most of the time!
Sorry kennedy just reread that and it sounds a bit crap. Not having a go at you just wanted to let you know how sessions tend to leave you feeling a little mixed somtimes no matter how good they were.
That's okay flossie---that feeling you're describing---the idea of that is what scares me!
I was fine when I played my fune last week---it was only afterward that I had a mini-panic attack. Thank goodness my friend had brought me a beer. I didn't want to drink too much, but I needed it to steady my nerves!
Here's a thought, Jack. I've noticed that a lot of our slow session learners are very reticent to join in the 'main' session, even when they're in the same pub and follow on from each other. After a lot of pondering I believe it is because many of the main session players don't like playing the 'beginners' tunes. We all know what non-stop reel fest sessions can be like, especially for a beginner with little confidence.
I purposefully start sets we are learning in the slow session when I'm in the main session and there are beginners present (at a reasonable speed, not 20 bpm...). It gives the newbies a way in, which they are usually grateful for, and I'm thick skinned enough to put up with the rolling eyes of the less accomodating players.
The sad thing is how much objection there seems to be to introducing the 'easier' tunes. There is definately a type of ITM personality that won't play anything that's fast and complicated. It's a shame, because they're missing out on the true beauty of the simpler melodies, as well as making the session exclusive. They remind me of six year olds in the playground, who don't want to play with the younger kids so they only play games the others can't join in.
Eno, I always thought beginner ones were the best to listen to. I love to play the more complex tunes -- but if I just have to sit and listen, I prefer the simple melody. Maybe that's why popular music only have three to four chords?
Many of the people I know who feel they need slow sessions seem to be afraid of how they will be treated at the "fast" sessions. In spite of how players may perceive it, the treatment people receive is more likely to be based on their attitude than their skill.
Eno - When the learners visit our session we'll invite them to start or suggest a tune. This is likely the only time the tunes you mentioned will show up. We will play them at whatever speed the person is comfortable with. After those tunes are played we go back to the tunes we like to play at the tempo we prefer. If the learners didn't come we might not hear those tunes for ages. Everyone brings something to the session, and that's what the learners bring.
I think I have to agree with Jack. Personally, I hate slow sessions. I have been told I tend to play tunes a wee bit on the fast side, though! One thing that is nice about slow sessions is that often the leader makes sure that everyone or a majority knows the tune, This is nice for beginners, because they don't run the risk of starting a tune no one knows, then having to play it on their own. Hmmmm, its hard to decide really. I definitely agree that they should be held in a private place though!
Ooh the 'idea' of 'that feeling' is nothing compared to the real thing. Last night I started Sport and the session leader launched in, but after a couple of secs I realised we weren't playing the same tune. Was he trying to help me (just ddn't recognise my crap rendition) or telling me that I had started too many tunes already? I'm still not sure and either way wasn't good !! So there you go life really is "like a box of chocolates" sometimes smoothe, sometimes nutty and sometimes those crappy creamy orangey, strawberry things.
i agree about drawbacks of slow sessions---at least if the player has a chance and an intention of playing "to speed" and playing well.....i believe "learners" get better by "playing up" to good players....my experience has been that during that period when one isn't up to the session speed or standard, learning by listening and watching those who are, has helped more than lummuocking along with other learners who may not be playing in time or whatever. that is with the proviso that one is woodshedding on one's own.....
My slow sessions are held privately in front of my computer using a slow down program, an invaluable tool. The challenge is to take what I am able to play at home and play at tempo at the pub. Often I am able to learn new tunes during sessions if I hear them frequently, but there's a good feeling I get from bringing my own new tunes to the session. Learning tunes at the pub is more akin to the immersive approach of learning a language--you learn out of necessity.
To clarify, our tune learning sessions were led by experienced, good players, helping less experienced people pick up tunes. We provided a steady beat, solid intonation, and a reasonable model for style and musicality. It wasn't a bunch of newbies sawing away with no structure. I always tried to make a point of talking about the tradition, tips for learning by ear, how to develop variations, etc.
Some people definitely benefitted from a chance to play tunes at a slower pace, in a setting with less pressure to play every note spot on. But there was always a decent player leading the tunes.
I don't think we have any "dedicated" slow sessions here (London, UK). (Not to say some are slower than others.) The nearest is some sessions Mick O'Connor leads for newer players. But they are not designated SS's as such. Personally I go along with Jack. Throw them in at the deep end. Sink or swim. Cruel to be kind. I *always* found Mick's sessions to slow.
Slow sessions are fine for beginners for a little while but they should be "weaned off them" very quickly for their own good. Mind you, you'll sometimes get fairly experienced players visiting them as it can be a good way to pick up "new tunes" very easily. The thing is that many teahers tire of teaching standards while students think they are "uncool" and they're always looking for something more exotic!!!
Of course, you'll then get loads of improving musicians with loads of fancy tunes in their repertoire which are no use to them in the "real world".
Anyway, I don't think it should always have to be a case of "throwing them in at the deep end". there's surely not only two types of session in any case, i.e Slow Versus really fast reels?
Good experienced musicians also enjoy playing at a slightly slower pace sometimes and might choose a variety of material depending on the circumstances. So, while learners obviously won't be able to pick up fast reels straight away, they can easily participate in many of the tunes at an average session.
So, basically, I agree with Jack and a few of the others here,.
I've been lurking. There just seems something wrong with a 'slow' session, basically a species of 'workshop', being in the main part of a pub. It just seems daft. Of course the punters take it as some 'light entertainment', even if the musicians don't, and how disappointed are they going to be when it is a barbituate version of what they might have come to expect?
The wisest 'moves' I am aware of are upstairs, downstairs, or in the back room, not to have a 'workshop' (slow session) in the main part of a pub, whether a one off, once a month or weekly... I think 'slow session', properly run and supervised and balanced ~ are a great thing, another option to nurture the tradition, and something for aging arthritic musos too. I do think though that 'the difference' could also be experienced, maybe finishing off with an at speed set or two to close the night with? But definitely NOT IN THE MAIN PART OF A PUB! How daft is that?
An after thought ~ when a pub is used for a one off like a funeral, it is reserved and paid for. Just for that moment, and it isn't an open pub, it is for the family and friends of the deceased... Can you imagine going into your local pub and finding it taken over by the local mortician? Not that I'm saying there is a correlation with a 'slow session' in the complete sense of a funeral. I'd feel a little uneasy if the local spiritualists or witches convention had taken the place over and were holding a seance in the corner...
"Shhhhhh, I can hear your Bernie now!" "Ahh, sory lass, that was just me fartin'"
We have a slow session in our area at the local ceilidhe club, part of their efforts to promote the culture, and from what I hear, it works pretty well.
I agree with ceolachan, it seems to me that moving a slow session into a pub's main room starts putting pressure on everyone to start sounding good for the crowd, which takes it away from its main purpose.
And at some point, people have to "take the training wheels off their bike" and jump in to a regular session, which can be daunting, but in the end, more rewarding.
slow sessions, SHUDDER, unfortunately around here they involve guitar players who after 10 - 15 years ( yes years) still need the chords for the Kesh, BoBH etc, and 5 - 10 fiddle and whistle players each with their own music stand and pile of music. Only tunes in the fiddlers fake book or the first Mallys book are allowed and no tune starts till everyone has found the music. Whats even better is its the same people who have been going for 10 or so years. Maybe 2 or 3 have moved on to other sessions. Same turgid pace, same 15 tunes.
One of them once told me i was playing a tune wrong because i didnt play the low (below the staff) B. I play flute.....
i can tell you myself, im a relative starter into the world of trad but my whistle teacher threw me straight into the deep end and i cant help but feel it did me only good. id say for startes its probably worth just throwing them in and giving them a chance to get used to the experience.
Some of the slow sessions described above must be horrendous experiences.
I like P-Button's approach. This has been the way we do it: It makes it fun and inspiring for everyone:
"When the learners visit our session we'll invite them to start or suggest a tune. We will play them at whatever speed the person is comfortable with. After those tunes are played we go back to the tunes we like to play at the tempo we prefer."
I taught kids for a long time. I used to watch each of them closely to detect the beginning stages of disconnect, like a shepherd watching for wandering sheep. I try to do the same in sessions. That is following the above approach yet inviting beginners in at those beginning stages of boredom, discouragement, frustration, loneliness, or anger.
I have heard that one of the problems with slow sessions is that as the original participants become better, things speed up, and they turn into normal sessions, to the chagrin of newcomers. Up in the Boston area, at the Greenbriar pub, friends have told me that there is a slow session followed by a normal session, and there is a clear avenue for people who are ready to "graduate" just staying longer and working their way into the normal proceedings, which seems to work pretty well.
"Up in the Boston area ... a slow session followed by a normal session"
We used to have that in a pub in Bristol, except that the slow session (also a fiddle workshop run by that very fine teacher Gill Newlyn) was upstairs in a private room. At 9 o'clock the main session would start downstairs. Gill would go down there to lead it and some of beginners and intermediates would also come in to listen and watch, and perhaps join in one or two tunes. Unfortunately for music in Bristol, Gill left two or three years ago to return to Co Kerry (http://www.kerryfiddles.com/), and that Wednesday session folded not long after.
In Bristol, beginners/intermediates/advanced on all instruments are now mostly catered for by the fortnightly Hibernia workshops (http://hibernia.webhop.org) and also (for fiddles) by evening workshops run by Jill Elliott, one of the Hibernia tutors. Hibernia run a fortnightly pub session specifically for its pupils, led by one or more of the tutors.
I do enjoy leading a slow session as long as the beginners are actually taking it in. Even in ordinary sessions, it can be amusing playing harder tunes at a slower speed just to see how many of the self-styled experts have not learned the tune or their fingering properly as it trips them up or they don't play all the notes (as they don't normally play them all).
It really is the only speed to practise and perfect tunes at!!
Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I've always thought "slow sessions" would be a good place for people that are just learning the music, but after having slow sessions around for a while I'm not so sure. It seems like the people who are learning that come to the regular session learn the music better. They will show up as listeners for a while, and then come later with their instruments and gradually learn the tunes. The more courageous have their instrument out in case a tune they know comes up, but if we see an instrument we'll usually ask them for a tune. I think that’s why others come as listeners at first.
When I compare the people who learn like this to people I hear from slow sessions, their playing seems a little more on the spot for some reason. I suspect it might have something to do with how they're influenced. Also, I'm getting some bad feedback from punters who are in the pub on slow session night and it has come to the publican's attention. Perhaps slow sessions shouldn't be held in pubs if they happen at all. But I wonder if those folks would be better off joining us at the regular sessions since the quality of the music at slow sessions might not be as inspiring.
Of course there are some problems that can happen if a learner tries to dominate the session or make it cater to them, and they can be disruptive if they noodle, but all learners aren't like that. My experience is that many of them are polite and have good common sense, and for that reason they are very welcome at the sessions.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Could it be that the people who start out at the slow sessions are learning their instruments and music in general at the same time as they are learning the tunes, whereas those who bypass the slow sessions already know music, know how to play their instruments, and are merely picking up the tunes and the style at the regular session?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I remember going to a pub where they have session rooms that people can rent out. However, it was the only one that I know of that does that. I am not sure if any other pubhouses does that as well.
I prefer going to sessions as a punter than going to performances myself. Performers can get quite loud... and are sometimes not aware that they don't sound as good when they are drunk. However, that's my two cent.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Those are interesting observations, Jack.
That's one of the reasons that we stress that our session is a "Tune Learning Session", and not a "Slow Session". We teach (and learn) tunes, but we push people to be able to work what we've learned up to "session speed" over time.
We also encourage people who come to go to other sessions to listen, and eventually to join in.
There are people who get stuck in the "slow session" idea, and think that's all they need, instead of using it as a stepping stone.
pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Gary, the ones that have already learned there instrument in another genre make the best progress, but they never show up at slow sessions that I'm aware of. I'm comparing the people who are learning how to play their instrument at the same time their learning the tunes. My comparison isn't scientific; it's just conjecture based on limited observation. But I was curious what other people have noticed regarding this... if anything.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Seriously though... slow sessions should take place in pubs. In big cities, if you just recently moved and don't know anyone -- where would you go? Go to the local or nearby pub and make friends. However, to keep business flowing of punters for the owners and musicians to have the venue of their choice -- we need to come up with a reasonable solution that will work out in everyone's favour.
I know at my local pub, on session nights, business is slow. I still go if I don't want to particapate just to support the business -- even if I am a lonely guy watching a bunch of people getting high of the music.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
What if the slow session is so woeful that it drives away the punters?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Heh, that actually happens with our tune learning session. We work on the tunes often at a couple of notes or one phrase at a time. It's horrible to listen to, and we clear the place out.
Fortunately, we do it at a coffee shop during a time that they don't usually have a whole lot of customers. And the tune learners buy lots of coffee too. So it works out
pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
We did our tune learning sessions at someone's house, not in a public place. We also held them only once a month, if that, and encouraged people to go to the weekly sessions even if just to listen.
But the tune learning sessions died off here--now people just pick up tunes at the regular session (by ear or by recording it). Four out of the core seven of us frequently pick up tunes on the fly at the regular session (and the other three welcome this because it's how they get us to play their tunes).
We're a small enough group of players--it's easy for us to get together on the spur of the moment, or set aside a few hours one afternoon, to swap new tunes. Often just two or three of us do this, at home or sometimes in a pub, learn a couple new tunes, and then play a bit. Much more casual and spontaneous than a specific session for learning tunes.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Yeah, it helps when everyone is experienced. I learn tunes on the fly now fairly often. And I can't stand learning tunes a couple of notes at a time anymore. I much prefer to learn a tune in big chunks in a one on one with someone.
I do like TEACHING tunes at that speed, though, because it is a really great way to actually learn more about a tune that you already play, and gives you a chance to think about variations and different ornaments.
But our tune learning session has enough turn-over that we pretty much always end up teaching tunes slowly.
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
We had a case in Bristol a few years ago where the pub landlord killed off a perfectly good session that had gradually turned into a tutorless learners' slow session for a variety of reasons.
I can see that landlord's point of view; that pub is used a lot for music events on other evenings, and he not unreasonably thought that an unguided LSS wasn't exactly going to attract the punters.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
My favorite way to learn tunes is to hear them in the session enough so that I can hear them in my head later on when no session is on. These tunes will come up while I'm at the session and I'll get the impulse to play them not realizing I've never actually learned them. If I've gone this far with a tune, then I'll actually learn it and it seems effortless. Also, I don't struggle to remember how it goes after learning it.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Yeah, I'm the same way. If I've heard a tune in sessions for a long time (and maybe even more or less picked it up along the way), then officially "learning" it takes about 4 minutes
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I finally get to speak from experience!!! I played at my very first session last week and it was a beginner session. They didn't play very slowly, though, I'll tell you that much. Some tunes went faster than my teacher plays them! I started off one jig and about 20 people joined in, and it went fine. I probably could have done the same thing in a regular session, but it wasn't the difficulty factor that worried me---it was the fear factor. I was terrified!
To me, that's the real advantage of beginner sessions---the intimidation factor is much, much lower. And I don't mean that experienced session players themselves are intimidating---it's more the reality of the situation---playing in public when you're still shaky on your instrument, learning to listen to what's going on around you---it's all new and fearsome territory, and it's nice to know that most of the other people around you are feeling it too.
I plan on doing this a few more months just to get used to it and then try a real session---I figure then I'll be playing better and more confidently and I'll know more tunes, so it's more likely to be a successful experience.
PS---a huge THANK YOU to everyone on this website who gives encouragement and advice to us newbies. You all are so helpful, it's really wonderful.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
If we were to slow the tunes down a bit so we could hear the tune clearly instead of galloping every single one so that they all sound the bloody same . . (a critisim made by lots of Jo soaps ie punters), ie. "der it all sounds the same . . diddly diddly diddly", we might get a lot more interest in ITM.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Justintime
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
When I started out a good while ago, I attended a so-called slow session once. It definitely was not the place for me to be although I was learning my instrument at the same timel.
Reasons:
- extremely slow tempo learning new tunes and also playing them. I could learn tunes that much faster on my own at home. And playing the tunes too slow simply kills them for me.
- no teaching or input regarding proper ITM style, ie. you'd just learn the bare-bones tune, no ornamentation, bowing patterns, etc. This also has the effect that e.g. fiddle players with classical background tend to keep playing in classical style.
It is mostly a session for learning tunes at a veeeerrry sslloooww tempo.
Also, since everybody there is more or less at the same level (i.e. no advanced players except for the leader(s)), there is really nobody to "imitate" or to choose as some sort of "role model".
I was lucky to be invited to play with the "big boys" and found it extremely inspiring and motivating. I wanted to play ITM, and that was something I only could find at a real session.
However, there are a lot of people that enjoy this particular slow session and have been going there for years... (without ever "graduating"). Maybe that's an important clue. Maybe it's a low pressure environment among equals, whereas at a "real" session, they wouldn't know that many tunes, couldn't keep up the speed etc. and would feel somewhat pressured to practice much more than they are able or willing to and learn a ton of new tunes. Since they have been going there for so long, it doesn't seem to me that they feel they're missing out on anything and get plenty out of the social environment as well.
From what I know about those musicians, they are generally by far not as much obsessed with Irish music as those that attend the regular sessions in town. There are also some people who IMHO will never advance beyond the beginner's level session (lack of time, obsession, enthusiasm, ambition, interest, skill...).
Where would they go if they didn't have their slow session?
I think it's great if there is a slow session in town, but I would always encourage anybody who is serious about ITM and willing to learn not just the tunes and the instrument, but the style as well to go to as many normal sessions as possible.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by heike
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I noticed that Justinti. They rather listen to recordings than public sessions.
And if there are sessions, they prefer if ones that are sung rather than played.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I'm not talking about slowing the tunes down so much as to accompany a funeral procession . . no . . just enough to hear the tune shine through.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Justintime
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Bloodyirish . . I'm not Jo soap . . I'm a player myself, and I think most of the time tunes are played too quickly "sometimes" . .
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Justintime
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
(Kennedy - oh, thank GOD, it's about freakin' time ;) Glad it went well - here's to many more!)
My fiddle teacher runs two sessions - a slow session for beginners, which he holds in his store; and an everyone-welcome session in a nearby pub. The everyone-welcome session apparently began as a slow session, but over time sped up, which gave rise to the slow session. I have been playing fiddle for nine months, and have attended both of these sessions.
I far, far prefer the pub session. The music is a lot better, for one. I also play better at it; at the slow session, sad to say, most of the newbie fiddlers are playing out of tune and their rhythm is off, which makes it a lot harder for me to stay on pitch and on time. Without the skill to hold my own when surrounded by people who play differently than I, I veer toward the style of the other players. When I'm surrounded by people who are far more skilled musicians than I, I feel my own playing nudged in that direction.
Kennedy's point about the fear factor is a good one, though; I get around it by playing in a rather large session (40 people the other week), where no one can hear me if (when) I mess up. (The other week, a newcomer made a beeline for me, of all people, between tunes to request permission to record the session. I felt reassured by this; it confirmed that it is not glaringly obvious to bystanders that I'm an absolute beginner.)
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Thanks for the encouragement, TDM---you're the main person who got me thinking I had to do it sooner rather than later.
I agree that beginner sessions can be harder in some ways---one guy was tapping his foot waaaaay off beat---so distracting! But I guess it's good, too, because I'll have to learn to play with distractions anyway. I'll see how it goes over the next few weeks. And I still go to the real sessions just to listen and to make friends. Gotta get to know everyone---it's a pretty small community for such a big city---we have more people here than in all of Ireland, and only a few hundred people who play Irish music, if there are even that many.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Kennedy beware, pride comes before a fall, I speak from experience. That feeling of being a poor player, inadequate not being worthy? I hate to tell you but I have been happily playing in sessions for years and it never goes away. I get on great with my fellow players and I know mostly I play fine and sometimes I even play well, but believe me I still get that "sh*t, I really ballsed that up" feeling on a regular basis. So if you want to play this music (and your names not McGoldrick) get used to it and remember its about stretching yourself and having fun most of the time!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by flossie
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Sorry kennedy just reread that and it sounds a bit crap. Not having a go at you just wanted to let you know how sessions tend to leave you feeling a little mixed somtimes no matter how good they were.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by flossie
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
That's okay flossie---that feeling you're describing---the idea of that is what scares me!
I was fine when I played my fune last week---it was only afterward that I had a mini-panic attack. Thank goodness my friend had brought me a beer. I didn't want to drink too much, but I needed it to steady my nerves!
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Here's a thought, Jack. I've noticed that a lot of our slow session learners are very reticent to join in the 'main' session, even when they're in the same pub and follow on from each other. After a lot of pondering I believe it is because many of the main session players don't like playing the 'beginners' tunes. We all know what non-stop reel fest sessions can be like, especially for a beginner with little confidence.
I purposefully start sets we are learning in the slow session when I'm in the main session and there are beginners present (at a reasonable speed, not 20 bpm...). It gives the newbies a way in, which they are usually grateful for, and I'm thick skinned enough to put up with the rolling eyes of the less accomodating players.
The sad thing is how much objection there seems to be to introducing the 'easier' tunes. There is definately a type of ITM personality that won't play anything that's fast and complicated. It's a shame, because they're missing out on the true beauty of the simpler melodies, as well as making the session exclusive. They remind me of six year olds in the playground, who don't want to play with the younger kids so they only play games the others can't join in.
So now I play as many polkas as I can
Eno
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Of course that should have read "won't play anything that's NOT fast and complicated".
Really must lobby Jeremy to get that retrospective edit fuction implemented.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Eno, I always thought beginner ones were the best to listen to. I love to play the more complex tunes -- but if I just have to sit and listen, I prefer the simple melody. Maybe that's why popular music only have three to four chords?
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Many of the people I know who feel they need slow sessions seem to be afraid of how they will be treated at the "fast" sessions. In spite of how players may perceive it, the treatment people receive is more likely to be based on their attitude than their skill.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by wbajzek
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Eno - When the learners visit our session we'll invite them to start or suggest a tune. This is likely the only time the tunes you mentioned will show up. We will play them at whatever speed the person is comfortable with. After those tunes are played we go back to the tunes we like to play at the tempo we prefer. If the learners didn't come we might not hear those tunes for ages. Everyone brings something to the session, and that's what the learners bring.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I think I have to agree with Jack. Personally, I hate slow sessions. I have been told I tend to play tunes a wee bit on the fast side, though! One thing that is nice about slow sessions is that often the leader makes sure that everyone or a majority knows the tune, This is nice for beginners, because they don't run the risk of starting a tune no one knows, then having to play it on their own. Hmmmm, its hard to decide really. I definitely agree that they should be held in a private place though!
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Ooh the 'idea' of 'that feeling' is nothing compared to the real thing. Last night I started Sport and the session leader launched in, but after a couple of secs I realised we weren't playing the same tune. Was he trying to help me (just ddn't recognise my crap rendition) or telling me that I had started too many tunes already? I'm still not sure and either way wasn't good !! So there you go life really is "like a box of chocolates" sometimes smoothe, sometimes nutty and sometimes those crappy creamy orangey, strawberry things.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by flossie
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
i agree about drawbacks of slow sessions---at least if the player has a chance and an intention of playing "to speed" and playing well.....i believe "learners" get better by "playing up" to good players....my experience has been that during that period when one isn't up to the session speed or standard, learning by listening and watching those who are, has helped more than lummuocking along with other learners who may not be playing in time or whatever. that is with the proviso that one is woodshedding on one's own.....
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
My slow sessions are held privately in front of my computer using a slow down program, an invaluable tool. The challenge is to take what I am able to play at home and play at tempo at the pub. Often I am able to learn new tunes during sessions if I hear them frequently, but there's a good feeling I get from bringing my own new tunes to the session. Learning tunes at the pub is more akin to the immersive approach of learning a language--you learn out of necessity.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by leoj
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
To clarify, our tune learning sessions were led by experienced, good players, helping less experienced people pick up tunes. We provided a steady beat, solid intonation, and a reasonable model for style and musicality. It wasn't a bunch of newbies sawing away with no structure. I always tried to make a point of talking about the tradition, tips for learning by ear, how to develop variations, etc.
Some people definitely benefitted from a chance to play tunes at a slower pace, in a setting with less pressure to play every note spot on. But there was always a decent player leading the tunes.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I don't think we have any "dedicated" slow sessions here (London, UK). (Not to say some are slower than others.) The nearest is some sessions Mick O'Connor leads for newer players. But they are not designated SS's as such. Personally I go along with Jack. Throw them in at the deep end. Sink or swim. Cruel to be kind. I *always* found Mick's sessions to slow.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Slow sessions are fine for beginners for a little while but they should be "weaned off them" very quickly for their own good. Mind you, you'll sometimes get fairly experienced players visiting them as it can be a good way to pick up "new tunes" very easily. The thing is that many teahers tire of teaching standards while students think they are "uncool" and they're always looking for something more exotic!!!
Of course, you'll then get loads of improving musicians with loads of fancy tunes in their repertoire which are no use to them in the "real world".
Anyway, I don't think it should always have to be a case of "throwing them in at the deep end". there's surely not only two types of session in any case, i.e Slow Versus really fast reels?
Good experienced musicians also enjoy playing at a slightly slower pace sometimes and might choose a variety of material depending on the circumstances. So, while learners obviously won't be able to pick up fast reels straight away, they can easily participate in many of the tunes at an average session.
So, basically, I agree with Jack and a few of the others here,.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I've been lurking. There just seems something wrong with a 'slow' session, basically a species of 'workshop', being in the main part of a pub. It just seems daft. Of course the punters take it as some 'light entertainment', even if the musicians don't, and how disappointed are they going to be when it is a barbituate version of what they might have come to expect?
The wisest 'moves' I am aware of are upstairs, downstairs, or in the back room, not to have a 'workshop' (slow session) in the main part of a pub, whether a one off, once a month or weekly... I think 'slow session', properly run and supervised and balanced ~ are a great thing, another option to nurture the tradition, and something for aging arthritic musos too. I do think though that 'the difference' could also be experienced, maybe finishing off with an at speed set or two to close the night with? But definitely NOT IN THE MAIN PART OF A PUB! How daft is that?
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
An after thought ~ when a pub is used for a one off like a funeral, it is reserved and paid for. Just for that moment, and it isn't an open pub, it is for the family and friends of the deceased... Can you imagine going into your local pub and finding it taken over by the local mortician? Not that I'm saying there is a correlation with a 'slow session' in the complete sense of a funeral. I'd feel a little uneasy if the local spiritualists or witches convention had taken the place over and were holding a seance in the corner...
"Shhhhhh, I can hear your Bernie now!" "Ahh, sory lass, that was just me fartin'"
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
We have a slow session in our area at the local ceilidhe club, part of their efforts to promote the culture, and from what I hear, it works pretty well.
I agree with ceolachan, it seems to me that moving a slow session into a pub's main room starts putting pressure on everyone to start sounding good for the crowd, which takes it away from its main purpose.
And at some point, people have to "take the training wheels off their bike" and jump in to a regular session, which can be daunting, but in the end, more rewarding.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
slow sessions, SHUDDER, unfortunately around here they involve guitar players who after 10 - 15 years ( yes years) still need the chords for the Kesh, BoBH etc, and 5 - 10 fiddle and whistle players each with their own music stand and pile of music. Only tunes in the fiddlers fake book or the first Mallys book are allowed and no tune starts till everyone has found the music. Whats even better is its the same people who have been going for 10 or so years. Maybe 2 or 3 have moved on to other sessions. Same turgid pace, same 15 tunes.
One of them once told me i was playing a tune wrong because i didnt play the low (below the staff) B. I play flute.....
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by thorsdog
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
i can tell you myself, im a relative starter into the world of trad but my whistle teacher threw me straight into the deep end and i cant help but feel it did me only good. id say for startes its probably worth just throwing them in and giving them a chance to get used to the experience.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Kevo32A
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Thanks for all the great input folks. Now I’m wondering if a slow session in a pub is a public performance… discuss.
hahahahahahaha
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
Some of the slow sessions described above must be horrendous experiences.
I like P-Button's approach. This has been the way we do it: It makes it fun and inspiring for everyone:
"When the learners visit our session we'll invite them to start or suggest a tune. We will play them at whatever speed the person is comfortable with. After those tunes are played we go back to the tunes we like to play at the tempo we prefer."
I taught kids for a long time. I used to watch each of them closely to detect the beginning stages of disconnect, like a shepherd watching for wandering sheep. I try to do the same in sessions. That is following the above approach yet inviting beginners in at those beginning stages of boredom, discouragement, frustration, loneliness, or anger.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I have heard that one of the problems with slow sessions is that as the original participants become better, things speed up, and they turn into normal sessions, to the chagrin of newcomers. Up in the Boston area, at the Greenbriar pub, friends have told me that there is a slow session followed by a normal session, and there is a clear avenue for people who are ready to "graduate" just staying longer and working their way into the normal proceedings, which seems to work pretty well.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
"Up in the Boston area ... a slow session followed by a normal session"
We used to have that in a pub in Bristol, except that the slow session (also a fiddle workshop run by that very fine teacher Gill Newlyn) was upstairs in a private room. At 9 o'clock the main session would start downstairs. Gill would go down there to lead it and some of beginners and intermediates would also come in to listen and watch, and perhaps join in one or two tunes. Unfortunately for music in Bristol, Gill left two or three years ago to return to Co Kerry (http://www.kerryfiddles.com/), and that Wednesday session folded not long after.
In Bristol, beginners/intermediates/advanced on all instruments are now mostly catered for by the fortnightly Hibernia workshops (http://hibernia.webhop.org) and also (for fiddles) by evening workshops run by Jill Elliott, one of the Hibernia tutors. Hibernia run a fortnightly pub session specifically for its pupils, led by one or more of the tutors.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Having second thoughts about "slow sessions"
I do enjoy leading a slow session as long as the beginners are actually taking it in. Even in ordinary sessions, it can be amusing playing harder tunes at a slower speed just to see how many of the self-styled experts have not learned the tune or their fingering properly as it trips them up or they don't play all the notes (as they don't normally play them all).
It really is the only speed to practise and perfect tunes at!!
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by geoffwright