My grandfather remembered it as a time where house parties and sessions was designed so people can get together, just have fun, drink, eat and jam. There was no discrimination against beginners or anyone who showed interest. They would exchange instruments with each others and teach each others. They couldn't discriminate, since it was the sole unifying event at the time that brought people from urban centers and small towns together.
Now, a lot of people treat as if it is a professional performance. Where did the sense of elitism came from?
As soon as people started using just three letters (I, T & M) to describe a whole musical tradition going back many centuries, with many infuences and sources, and gifted exponents.
Come on ThebloodyIrish, your grandfathers memories, with due respect, are tinged with rose colouring. You're talking of a time when there was no entertainment, other than what you made yourself. The sense of eliteism, as you refer to it, is nothing more than pride based on the incredible advances in players' technique. Sport has the same issues, the fact being that we can analyse much better now, and improve the performances ..........for better or worse. The times you refer to are probably only to be found in archive footage in programmes like "come west along the road"
Nothing happened to it. At least here in Donegal, Ireland, it is just the same as always. In fact, had a wee play in the park yesterday. Could go down the pub and mess about with no worries.
Maybe the so-called Irish in America or somewhere are having problems, but not here at home.
I am serious. Some of the sessions I go, newcomers are shunned and looked down upon. Others are more open.
I have been introduced to old-timer sessions by my grandparents, and in those sessions, if someone didn't like a particular instrument, they usually find another one for you. Usually you find the instrument of your choice by the end of the night, and if not... there always more sessions you can join. They understood that not everyone can buy a good instrument outright. That's how I found my natural talent with the banjo. If you're no good at all, you sing or become part of the vocal group. If worse come to worse, there's always the foot thumping.
Now, I go to sessions in bigger cities... and it sadden me when someone get kicked out and unwelcome. They just needed someone to pull them aside, give them something to play and a 5-10 minute instruction. Not every instrument is for everyone. Some are a natural with the fiddle without the banshee from hell sound, others with the accordion, some surprise people with the pipes and flutes.
I agree with some of what you say TBI I believe that you should welcome people to your session, encourage people to play, help them if you know more than them, learn from them if you do not.
If lots of people had not helped me I would not be playing today .I owe it to them and their memory to continue that tradition. I even invite folks to play at my house on a reasonably regular basis.
There have been complaints about people being chased away from sessions and young people not joining sessions these two themes are so obviously linked only the blind, deaf and terminally curmudgeon, cannot see this. I aspire to be an average player but if I help some person who goes on to be one of the greats then maybe there is a bit of greatness in that for me too
The other thing missing is ……………………………………..fun It needs to be fun if its not then the sessions won’t be there in 30 years.
The tradition is alive and well, even here in the States, even in backwaters like Montana. Newcomers are welcome, some of us teach tunes and technique and generosity to others. We have instruments people can borrow to try out or learn on (a flute, whistle, fiddles, even a set of practice u. pipes).
Elitism isn't new--the stories that have been written down include examples of it--dancing masters crowing their superiority in order to recruit and keep students, pecking orders of musicians, some players guarding "their" tunes or settings of tunes, being careful not to play them too many times lest someone lift them by ear.
But the more community-oriented, generosity-of-spirit mindset also carries on. Some of us were brought up in this music that way, and the music is as much about that as it is about the tunes.
Bloody, what you wrote is very sad. I can't understand why newcomers are unwelcome. In the session I go (france) the old flute players were very welcoming with me. They ecouraged me to join and to play with them the first time I went to the session. They are my masters and they are glad to teach me their knowledge. There is nothing about elitism... ITM musicians aren't crabby in France.
Putamayo has a film out called "Celtic Tides", where some of the biggest names are interviewed...... from the Chieftains, Altan, Natalie MacMasters, Capercaille, 3 Blind Dogs, Clannad and others. Many of them talked about how much fun the house parties were, and how everyone was able to particapate in some way........ how you didn't have to be any kind of hotshot to play. These people were all helped & inspired by this community spirit.
In the States, at least, dedicated players of Irish tunes sometimes have to "play good cop/bad cop" to keep a session on track, and up to a reasonable standard. Back when I knew even less about Irish music than I do now, that sometimes made me unhappy. (I remember saying that I would never become an "Irish music expert," because that field was so overpopulated.) But now I see that it is sometimes an unpleasant but necessary duty.
What if you want to be challenged and play some real nice tight music that is just incredible? Sitting in a room full of begginers/intermediates won't get you there. I remember, as a beginner, being so insulted to find out that there were actually rules at some sessions. "How dare they?...this is music...everyone should be included". Yes that's nice for a utopian society. But why not other options for sessions? I'm not a begginer anymore and want to learn and improve. Everyone hates rejection. But democracy and music make strange bedfellows, in my experience.
I agree with mickray. At least in the States, you tend to get people that come in and completely ruin a session - but get offended if you try to talk to them about it. It's kind of sad.
I guess the same things probably happen elsewhere. Especially in Ireland, where you probably get tourists with their $10 bodhrans that want to sit in, without knowing anything about it.
In general, the sessions that I go to are very welcoming, at least up to a point. But sometimes it takes coming off like a jerk to keep it "on track".
My experience has been that serious newcomers usually quickly suss out how to participate without detracting from the music and craic. But I live in a small town, so we don't have a steady stream of wannabes wandering in our door disrupting things. In another setting, welcoming anyone to sit in can be the path to disappointment.
Keep the house parties going sal! They're getting rarer by the day. The only time I ever see them nowaday is when you have a pub ran by an old-timer from the Maritime or Boston. I can't speak for Ireland though.
Scottish-Canadian sessions seem to be intact and going by the old ways still.
Kitchen sessions are alive and well down here in Brisbane. I've been to three in the last six weeks (and missed a fourth). They're still the best sessions.
Mind you, I've heard it suggested that ITM is on the way out in Ireland because of the new prosperity. People don't need to make their own entertainment anymore. They can afford to get Robbie Williams to do it for them. Personally.
Even if ITM is phased out, it will still survive in folk revival and folk roots movements. I means, ITM was on its way out the door several times. New instruments such as the guitar and the bodhran helped to perserve interest in it. Unfortunately, if you're not a big fan of electric instruments -- then the recent revival of ITM in Irish folk rock in the 70s and Irish punk in 80s and 90s will be disappointing.
TBI - I don't think the bodhran is a new instrument - to the chagrin of llig - I think its use in the music goes back a fair way.
We have weekly house parties here (Christchurch, New Zealand) - and it's great fun. We all aspire to play better than we do at the moment, but most importantly we enjoy each others' company.
New is a relative word. In the 1960s, the bodhran was a new introduction to the music. I was told by the old-timers that Irish was dying in Ireland during the 40s and 50s until the "newfangled youngsters" revised the use of a goatskin wardrum, thus the bodhran.
If you notice, every surge of ITM popularity is usually coupled with the introduction of a new instrument. You have the bodhran and bouzouki during the 60s, the guitar during the 70s. Now you have the electric instruments during the 80s. Some of those instruments have been used earlier, but they didn't stick around for long until much later.
I suppose melodeons / accordeons in all manner of new and sophisticated varieties have contribued to the popularity of ITM - to play and to listen to - over the last twenty years or so, in the manner of the instruments on the list above.
And all these instruments are - or at any rate *seem* - easier than the fiddle, for someone who wants to start playing something and hasn't had violin lessons as a kid.
What happened to ITM?
What happened to ITM?
My grandfather remembered it as a time where house parties and sessions was designed so people can get together, just have fun, drink, eat and jam. There was no discrimination against beginners or anyone who showed interest. They would exchange instruments with each others and teach each others. They couldn't discriminate, since it was the sole unifying event at the time that brought people from urban centers and small towns together.
Now, a lot of people treat as if it is a professional performance. Where did the sense of elitism came from?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: What happened to ITM?
Perhaps because it moved into pubs and other public venues. House sessions are still as you describe, but they are pretty infrequent around here.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: What happened to ITM?
As soon as people started using just three letters (I, T & M) to describe a whole musical tradition going back many centuries, with many infuences and sources, and gifted exponents.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: What happened to ITM?
Internet discussion groups nruined it.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by saltcast
Re: What happened to ITM?
Come on ThebloodyIrish, your grandfathers memories, with due respect, are tinged with rose colouring. You're talking of a time when there was no entertainment, other than what you made yourself. The sense of eliteism, as you refer to it, is nothing more than pride based on the incredible advances in players' technique. Sport has the same issues, the fact being that we can analyse much better now, and improve the performances ..........for better or worse. The times you refer to are probably only to be found in archive footage in programmes like "come west along the road"
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Backer
Re: What happened to ITM?
Nothing happened to it. At least here in Donegal, Ireland, it is just the same as always. In fact, had a wee play in the park yesterday. Could go down the pub and mess about with no worries.
Maybe the so-called Irish in America or somewhere are having problems, but not here at home.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Stíofán
Re: What happened to ITM?
And in Donegal.........
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Backer
Re: What happened to ITM?
Elitism it comes from insecurity
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: What happened to ITM?
My friend Hazel Fairbairn wrote a thesis on it ... worth a look!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Lizzy
Re: What happened to ITM?
No shortage of it in Cork and it drives me mad.............
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: What happened to ITM?
I am serious. Some of the sessions I go, newcomers are shunned and looked down upon. Others are more open.
I have been introduced to old-timer sessions by my grandparents, and in those sessions, if someone didn't like a particular instrument, they usually find another one for you. Usually you find the instrument of your choice by the end of the night, and if not... there always more sessions you can join. They understood that not everyone can buy a good instrument outright. That's how I found my natural talent with the banjo. If you're no good at all, you sing or become part of the vocal group. If worse come to worse, there's always the foot thumping.
Now, I go to sessions in bigger cities... and it sadden me when someone get kicked out and unwelcome. They just needed someone to pull them aside, give them something to play and a 5-10 minute instruction. Not every instrument is for everyone. Some are a natural with the fiddle without the banshee from hell sound, others with the accordion, some surprise people with the pipes and flutes.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: What happened to ITM?
Bloody thats right but maybe some of these so called elists should be called aside for a few mins.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: What happened to ITM?
I agree with some of what you say TBI I believe that you should welcome people to your session, encourage people to play, help them if you know more than them, learn from them if you do not.
If lots of people had not helped me I would not be playing today .I owe it to them and their memory to continue that tradition. I even invite folks to play at my house on a reasonably regular basis.
There have been complaints about people being chased away from sessions and young people not joining sessions these two themes are so obviously linked only the blind, deaf and terminally curmudgeon, cannot see this. I aspire to be an average player but if I help some person who goes on to be one of the greats then maybe there is a bit of greatness in that for me too
The other thing missing is ……………………………………..fun It needs to be fun if its not then the sessions won’t be there in 30 years.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: What happened to ITM?
The tradition is alive and well, even here in the States, even in backwaters like Montana. Newcomers are welcome, some of us teach tunes and technique and generosity to others. We have instruments people can borrow to try out or learn on (a flute, whistle, fiddles, even a set of practice u. pipes).
Elitism isn't new--the stories that have been written down include examples of it--dancing masters crowing their superiority in order to recruit and keep students, pecking orders of musicians, some players guarding "their" tunes or settings of tunes, being careful not to play them too many times lest someone lift them by ear.
But the more community-oriented, generosity-of-spirit mindset also carries on. Some of us were brought up in this music that way, and the music is as much about that as it is about the tunes.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: What happened to ITM?
Bloody, what you wrote is very sad. I can't understand why newcomers are unwelcome. In the session I go (france) the old flute players were very welcoming with me. They ecouraged me to join and to play with them the first time I went to the session. They are my masters and they are glad to teach me their knowledge. There is nothing about elitism... ITM musicians aren't crabby in France.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Ralex
Re: What happened to ITM?
I agree that the most important factor be fun.
Putamayo has a film out called "Celtic Tides", where some of the biggest names are interviewed...... from the Chieftains, Altan, Natalie MacMasters, Capercaille, 3 Blind Dogs, Clannad and others. Many of them talked about how much fun the house parties were, and how everyone was able to particapate in some way........ how you didn't have to be any kind of hotshot to play. These people were all helped & inspired by this community spirit.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by morning star
Re: What happened to ITM?
In the States, at least, dedicated players of Irish tunes sometimes have to "play good cop/bad cop" to keep a session on track, and up to a reasonable standard. Back when I knew even less about Irish music than I do now, that sometimes made me unhappy. (I remember saying that I would never become an "Irish music expert," because that field was so overpopulated.) But now I see that it is sometimes an unpleasant but necessary duty.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by mickray
Re: What happened to ITM?
What else? The Feckin' Hippies took over!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Farr
Re: What happened to ITM?
Heh heh heh
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: What happened to ITM?
What if you want to be challenged and play some real nice tight music that is just incredible? Sitting in a room full of begginers/intermediates won't get you there. I remember, as a beginner, being so insulted to find out that there were actually rules at some sessions. "How dare they?...this is music...everyone should be included". Yes that's nice for a utopian society. But why not other options for sessions? I'm not a begginer anymore and want to learn and improve. Everyone hates rejection. But democracy and music make strange bedfellows, in my experience.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by saltcast
Re: What happened to ITM?
I agree with mickray. At least in the States, you tend to get people that come in and completely ruin a session - but get offended if you try to talk to them about it. It's kind of sad.
I guess the same things probably happen elsewhere. Especially in Ireland, where you probably get tourists with their $10 bodhrans that want to sit in, without knowing anything about it.
In general, the sessions that I go to are very welcoming, at least up to a point. But sometimes it takes coming off like a jerk to keep it "on track".
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: What happened to ITM?
Yes......
I've had my share of having to tell people when they don't fit in.
House parties can be different, of course.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by morning star
Re: What happened to ITM?
My experience has been that serious newcomers usually quickly suss out how to participate without detracting from the music and craic. But I live in a small town, so we don't have a steady stream of wannabes wandering in our door disrupting things. In another setting, welcoming anyone to sit in can be the path to disappointment.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: What happened to ITM?
I posted similar to this a few weeks back. I have frequent house parties exactly like you described from your grandfather's past.
This type of party has been passed down through myself, family and friends and it will be passed down to our kids..
A public session can't come close to the fun of a good house/kitchen party.
I can't answer your question where the sense of elitism came from but I'll keep having my kitchen parties because of it.
Ken
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by salmoncove
Re: What happened to ITM?
Keep the house parties going sal! They're getting rarer by the day. The only time I ever see them nowaday is when you have a pub ran by an old-timer from the Maritime or Boston. I can't speak for Ireland though.
Scottish-Canadian sessions seem to be intact and going by the old ways still.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: What happened to ITM?
Kitchen sessions are alive and well down here in Brisbane. I've been to three in the last six weeks (and missed a fourth). They're still the best sessions.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: What happened to ITM?
Mind you, I've heard it suggested that ITM is on the way out in Ireland because of the new prosperity. People don't need to make their own entertainment anymore. They can afford to get Robbie Williams to do it for them. Personally.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: What happened to ITM?
Even if ITM is phased out, it will still survive in folk revival and folk roots movements. I means, ITM was on its way out the door several times. New instruments such as the guitar and the bodhran helped to perserve interest in it. Unfortunately, if you're not a big fan of electric instruments -- then the recent revival of ITM in Irish folk rock in the 70s and Irish punk in 80s and 90s will be disappointing.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: What happened to ITM?
TBI - I don't think the bodhran is a new instrument - to the chagrin of llig - I think its use in the music goes back a fair way.
We have weekly house parties here (Christchurch, New Zealand) - and it's great fun. We all aspire to play better than we do at the moment, but most importantly we enjoy each others' company.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Brown Creeper
Re: What happened to ITM?
Bodhran new? Hmmm ... I've long believed the sort of version of events contained here:
http://www.ceolas.org/instruments/bodhran/history.shtml
If anyone has any evidence of its use earlier than suggested (the 1960s) it would be interesting to hear ...
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: What happened to ITM?
New is a relative word. In the 1960s, the bodhran was a new introduction to the music. I was told by the old-timers that Irish was dying in Ireland during the 40s and 50s until the "newfangled youngsters" revised the use of a goatskin wardrum, thus the bodhran.
If you notice, every surge of ITM popularity is usually coupled with the introduction of a new instrument. You have the bodhran and bouzouki during the 60s, the guitar during the 70s. Now you have the electric instruments during the 80s. Some of those instruments have been used earlier, but they didn't stick around for long until much later.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: What happened to ITM?
What I means by "the Irish was dying"... I meant the music. Sorry!
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by TheBloodyIrish
Re: What happened to ITM?
I suppose melodeons / accordeons in all manner of new and sophisticated varieties have contribued to the popularity of ITM - to play and to listen to - over the last twenty years or so, in the manner of the instruments on the list above.
And all these instruments are - or at any rate *seem* - easier than the fiddle, for someone who wants to start playing something and hasn't had violin lessons as a kid.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by nicholas