There's an interesting phenomenum I've noticed over here of the clearly classically trained professional musician declaring to all and sundry that they have been accepted by whatever tradition and then proceed to expound on the ins and outs of said tradition setting up workshop camps, playing festivals and scoring arts grants to record and tour etc, etc. I've detected a sense of resentment from older musicians who have struggled all their lives to be true to their artform often at their financial peril. I think it was Alex Francis MacKay who once famously quipped that he could never get a gig because he didn't sound Cape Breton enough.
There is a danger in this in that for a country like Canada for example , where most of it's citizens have no understanding whatsoever of traditional music, that it can be misrepresented at the highest levels of public performance.
Any thoughts on this ?
Reminds me of this. Just recently the Berklee College of Music in Boston opened a Bluegrass major. Everyone was thrilled. I wasn't. I've shared many a stage with these virtuosos and they play way over my head. Basically everything they play is jazz on bluegrass instruments. The direction they instantly take the music is all wrong. But who am I to judge? Funny thing, when you drive an hour out of the city and get to the bluegrass players who are children of working class parents who loved old time country. The music takes on heart and depth that's very noticable. So the larger question here is how legitamite is music education in traditional music. What about the role of CCE?
(oh boy this is going to be a doozy of a thread).
These thoughts have crossed my mind many times. I am of the traditional music background. It frustrates me to no end that I can't get grant money because I suck at writing proposals. Well, I guess that I have to suppose (before someone else does) that perhaps the projects aren't always worthy of grant money. I do see money going around to folks who have very limited musical talents.
So at the risk of sounding resentful and bitter.....I'm not really....I try to find creative ways to make money at my music. I have been wanting to record a second CD for sometime, but I'm one of those musicians who doesn't want to spend life on the road. Not many people want to give you grant money and distribution deals if you don't want to tour...go figure....so, no CD for now, but still enjoy teaching some lessons, a busy summer performing schedule, some school tours here and there....enough to pay the bills.
In some cases, I guess it is true that the music can be mis-represented by those who are willing to compromise their own musical preferences for the styles that will make them some cash, but at the same time, it's often about catering to the audience. In a crowd of non-musicians, does anyone know the difference?
I was talking to a lovely traditional musician earlier, one that gets mentioned here every now and again in 'I wish so and so would record' context. Anyway, after months of working on a recording that is indeed promising to be lovely, the whole thing is now being shelved for fear of the composers of a number of tunes on it will come knocking on the door looking for money and the hassle sorting all of this out.
There was a time when traditional musicians were happy to have their tunes played and recorded by their peers (and a some still are) but this is what it has come to, records are essentially banned, musicians are put off recording tunes by particular (deceased) composers because the family is trying to cash in or otherwise hassle people who do and whole projects, like the one I mentioned, are being scrapped (and at great cost to the musicians who has already done the work and paid the studio hours to get things right).
I know what you are saying saltcast, but we can't hold back progress can we & graduate courses for Traditional Music are springing up all over the place, on this side of the pond, these days, too. They might not suit everyone but we cannot, of course, live in the past & I'm sure many of the young whizz kids will also have the wit to go & seek out the older players.
In reality, there will surely be some really good, authentic sounding musicians come out of those colleges ..... & likewise there will inevitably be some €rap players come out of the working class tradition too.
I think, that the more old fashioned, traditional approach to learning this music, will always exist, to offer a balance to the more academic approach. Fingers crossed!
An interesting point Saltcast considering I play in sessions in a city with its own Folk Music degree.Newcastle upon Tyne.
It’s a two edged sword it brings some great players to the north east but unfortunately some pillocks as well and results in some strange bed fellows.( for instance lots of cellos !)
One does wonder what they are all going to do with these qualifications (20 to 30 graduates a year) and I would be interested in the views of who play in Cork ,where the Irish equivalent is based.
How do you mean the "classically trained professional musicians"??? There are more "traditional" musicans doing well than there are classically trained or musicians with influences such as bluegrass and jazz. I am speaking about in Ireland anyway.
I believe that if you are good enough on your instrument, you are good enough to perform, ie. people will take an interest in your talents whatever they may be.
Music is as much a business these days as it is a passion and I take my hat off to people who succeed in making a few bob from the music. It is very hard work. It is also important to appeal to your audience.
Something's a little odd about that situation, Kilfarboy. Seems to me that when someone decides what tunes to record, their willingness to pay royalties and deal with the hassle of bookkeeping and making payments should be a factor in that decision. One can make a list of the tunes being considered for the recording and decide individually for each such tune whether that tune is worth the money and the trouble. If not, there are thousands of others to substitute. Sure, it's a shame that this has to be an issue, but there's something strange about realizing it at the last minute. And I suspect that I'm one of the people who has been anxiously awaiting this recording.
What I mean by "classically trained professionals" is exactly that. In my experience in Canada (never really saw it in Ireland) there are far more "classically trained professionals" playing music considered to be "traditional" than not and the difference in style is obvious and there's no jealousy here, I've got a decent day job that keeps me going and a whole bunch of students doing really well. My primary concern is for the aspects of tradition that will be lost sooner rather than later if the current trend continues. For example: celtic Festival "A" recruits celtic Musician "B" who teaches student "C". A recruits B because B has really good credentials. B has a degree and numerous credits but bears little or no relation to the tradition which is being expounded. C who only wants to learn goes away with a less than complete understanding of the tradition but is ignorant of that fact and thus in a weekend hundreds of years of tradition is broken. Mainly though my thread was about the need for classically trained musicians to be accepted by various traditions as "bona fide". It seems to be a real "thing" The reverse happens especially with the "folk violinist" syndrome but becomes blurred further into Eastern Europe where classical music and folk music start to blend more.
Gary, we're talking about someone here who plays tunes, loves music but hasn't a head for business who suddenly ended up in a position where tunes that were picked up from other musicians suddenly had a sting in the tail. This proved so discouraging the project fell flat, after finishing the recordings.
People have always been composing tunes and they let them out, often anonymously (see the large number of Breandan McGlinchey tunes, Bobby Casey's tunes etc). I remember one old player who had put together some mighty tunes who said (when I played him back one of his own tunes that had gone through several hands and had been changed considerably in the process) that 'once you let them go, they're out of your hands'. Now, I strongly feel that loosing that does considerable damage, that the threat of the licensing agent knocking on the door is taking tunes out of circulation. Personally I know of several very fine albums in the recent years that didn't include Junior Crehan tunes for fear of dealing with these issues and those were by people who knew Junior well and who would liked in a way have paid tribute to him.
Copyrights are a complex issue and a constant subject of discussion within irish music but I am of the opinion that once tunes are 'accepted accepted into the tradition' they are indeed out of the hands of the composer and that 'rights' should not harshly be enforced among traditional musicians, that it is quite contrary to the spirit of this music.
The case I mentioned is a case in point, a lovely CD by a lovely musician shelved because of the hassle that could be involved.
I have no problem with virtuosos playing this music, as long as they are still willing to play along in the session with ordinary folks with modest talents like me. When this music stops being something that ordinary people play for fun, it stops being folk music!
With regard to traditional music courses I'll quite happily answer any questions pertaining to the one at Newcastle Universiy. I believe that having a group of people who have an academic understanding of traditional music and song will help to (re)gain respect for folk and enable it to be more widely understood. It also ensures that most of the students leaving the course gain a good understanding of the traditional context through academic and non-academic means.
It seems a bit irrelevant to discuss what the graduates from these courses (13 this academic year) will do, at the least we have a degree equal to many other non-vocational degrees. We have the advantage that at we graduate from a "red-brick" university, which is in the eyes of employers is better than many of the newly converted polytechnics and teacher training colleges now offering degrees.
Re: the attitudes of some people. Personally, I hold responsible the musical communities that young musicians are brought up in for their attitudes.
It should not be forgotten that anyone taking one of these courses since the top-up fees legislation was passed will end up owing the best part of £35,000 (~ $70,000US) for the privilage - not a decision anyone would take lightly.
(Any views I express here are only my opinions, and should not be read as to contstrue a response on behalf of any institution or department within it)
But is this a general trend or is it bad behavior by the heirs of one particular composer?
Is there something different about Irish copyright law that makes this particular case especially thorny? Here in the U.S., if a tune has already been released commercially, artists who record it subsequently just have to pay the holder of the copyright a few cents per CD, at a rate established by law. There's no reason that it should be a sting. Or they can request that the copyright holder to waive all or part of the royalty. If the composer takes your point of view, or just realizes that the amount is insignificant, no problem. If not, it's just a small check to write.
A decade or more ago, a lovely traditional American singer, Cindy Mangsen, recorded a song written by English songwriter Jez Lowe. Now, whenever Jez is about to play a concert at my house when on tour in the U.S., Cindy sends me a check for royalties to give to Jez to avoid having to mail it to England, where currency conversion would become more of a hassle than it's worth. The check is usually for a tiny amount (less than a month's telephone bill) and covers about two-years' worth of royalties. Jez' reaction is along the lines of, "that's sweet, but it isn't worth bothering about." I suspect he feels differently for bigger selling covers of his songs where the money is significant.
Of course it's sad when the heirs take a more greedy attitude than the composer did.
I too am slightly baffled by the idea that a cd should be shelved rather than released and then have to deal with copyright payments. Gary above describes what would seem to be the situation - does this seem to be too much hassle ?
As the old fiddler was quoted "once you let them go, they're out of your hands". By all means, though, acknowledge copyright owners, and pay them, wherever possible.
An older discussion about copyright asked the thorny question of the dance troupe using a commercially recorded cd for their music, being paid for the gig but not crediting or paying the artist on the cd for the use of their music. That is the other side of the coin.
PS I don't know if I'd have had the guts to try it in my day, but it's good that people are being taught about the best of the musical traditions. I just hope that it won't be the prerequisit for success, I feel that natural talent and effort should still be recognised.
On the other hand there was a cracking young scottish band at Towersey last year, four from the Glasgow course, one from Newcastle....I was jealous; never had that opportunity in my day.....
Tradition vs making a buck
Tradition vs making a buck
There's an interesting phenomenum I've noticed over here of the clearly classically trained professional musician declaring to all and sundry that they have been accepted by whatever tradition and then proceed to expound on the ins and outs of said tradition setting up workshop camps, playing festivals and scoring arts grants to record and tour etc, etc. I've detected a sense of resentment from older musicians who have struggled all their lives to be true to their artform often at their financial peril. I think it was Alex Francis MacKay who once famously quipped that he could never get a gig because he didn't sound Cape Breton enough.
There is a danger in this in that for a country like Canada for example , where most of it's citizens have no understanding whatsoever of traditional music, that it can be misrepresented at the highest levels of public performance.
Any thoughts on this ?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Patkiwi
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
Reminds me of this. Just recently the Berklee College of Music in Boston opened a Bluegrass major. Everyone was thrilled. I wasn't. I've shared many a stage with these virtuosos and they play way over my head. Basically everything they play is jazz on bluegrass instruments. The direction they instantly take the music is all wrong. But who am I to judge? Funny thing, when you drive an hour out of the city and get to the bluegrass players who are children of working class parents who loved old time country. The music takes on heart and depth that's very noticable. So the larger question here is how legitamite is music education in traditional music. What about the role of CCE?
(oh boy this is going to be a doozy of a thread).
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by saltcast
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
These thoughts have crossed my mind many times. I am of the traditional music background. It frustrates me to no end that I can't get grant money because I suck at writing proposals. Well, I guess that I have to suppose (before someone else does) that perhaps the projects aren't always worthy of grant money. I do see money going around to folks who have very limited musical talents.
So at the risk of sounding resentful and bitter.....I'm not really....I try to find creative ways to make money at my music. I have been wanting to record a second CD for sometime, but I'm one of those musicians who doesn't want to spend life on the road. Not many people want to give you grant money and distribution deals if you don't want to tour...go figure....so, no CD for now, but still enjoy teaching some lessons, a busy summer performing schedule, some school tours here and there....enough to pay the bills.
In some cases, I guess it is true that the music can be mis-represented by those who are willing to compromise their own musical preferences for the styles that will make them some cash, but at the same time, it's often about catering to the audience. In a crowd of non-musicians, does anyone know the difference?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by anastasiadesroches
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
I was talking to a lovely traditional musician earlier, one that gets mentioned here every now and again in 'I wish so and so would record' context. Anyway, after months of working on a recording that is indeed promising to be lovely, the whole thing is now being shelved for fear of the composers of a number of tunes on it will come knocking on the door looking for money and the hassle sorting all of this out.
There was a time when traditional musicians were happy to have their tunes played and recorded by their peers (and a some still are) but this is what it has come to, records are essentially banned, musicians are put off recording tunes by particular (deceased) composers because the family is trying to cash in or otherwise hassle people who do and whole projects, like the one I mentioned, are being scrapped (and at great cost to the musicians who has already done the work and paid the studio hours to get things right).
it's a loss and music is left the poorer for it.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
I know what you are saying saltcast, but we can't hold back progress can we & graduate courses for Traditional Music are springing up all over the place, on this side of the pond, these days, too. They might not suit everyone but we cannot, of course, live in the past & I'm sure many of the young whizz kids will also have the wit to go & seek out the older players.
In reality, there will surely be some really good, authentic sounding musicians come out of those colleges ..... & likewise there will inevitably be some €rap players come out of the working class tradition too.
I think, that the more old fashioned, traditional approach to learning this music, will always exist, to offer a balance to the more academic approach. Fingers crossed!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
An interesting point Saltcast considering I play in sessions in a city with its own Folk Music degree.Newcastle upon Tyne.
It’s a two edged sword it brings some great players to the north east but unfortunately some pillocks as well and results in some strange bed fellows.( for instance lots of cellos !)
One does wonder what they are all going to do with these qualifications (20 to 30 graduates a year) and I would be interested in the views of who play in Cork ,where the Irish equivalent is based.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
How do you mean the "classically trained professional musicians"??? There are more "traditional" musicans doing well than there are classically trained or musicians with influences such as bluegrass and jazz. I am speaking about in Ireland anyway.
I believe that if you are good enough on your instrument, you are good enough to perform, ie. people will take an interest in your talents whatever they may be.
Music is as much a business these days as it is a passion and I take my hat off to people who succeed in making a few bob from the music. It is very hard work. It is also important to appeal to your audience.
I detect a hint of jealousy in this discussion.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Roger O' Miller
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
Something's a little odd about that situation, Kilfarboy. Seems to me that when someone decides what tunes to record, their willingness to pay royalties and deal with the hassle of bookkeeping and making payments should be a factor in that decision. One can make a list of the tunes being considered for the recording and decide individually for each such tune whether that tune is worth the money and the trouble. If not, there are thousands of others to substitute. Sure, it's a shame that this has to be an issue, but there's something strange about realizing it at the last minute. And I suspect that I'm one of the people who has been anxiously awaiting this recording.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
What I mean by "classically trained professionals" is exactly that. In my experience in Canada (never really saw it in Ireland) there are far more "classically trained professionals" playing music considered to be "traditional" than not and the difference in style is obvious and there's no jealousy here, I've got a decent day job that keeps me going and a whole bunch of students doing really well. My primary concern is for the aspects of tradition that will be lost sooner rather than later if the current trend continues. For example: celtic Festival "A" recruits celtic Musician "B" who teaches student "C". A recruits B because B has really good credentials. B has a degree and numerous credits but bears little or no relation to the tradition which is being expounded. C who only wants to learn goes away with a less than complete understanding of the tradition but is ignorant of that fact and thus in a weekend hundreds of years of tradition is broken. Mainly though my thread was about the need for classically trained musicians to be accepted by various traditions as "bona fide". It seems to be a real "thing" The reverse happens especially with the "folk violinist" syndrome but becomes blurred further into Eastern Europe where classical music and folk music start to blend more.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Patkiwi
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
Gary, we're talking about someone here who plays tunes, loves music but hasn't a head for business who suddenly ended up in a position where tunes that were picked up from other musicians suddenly had a sting in the tail. This proved so discouraging the project fell flat, after finishing the recordings.
People have always been composing tunes and they let them out, often anonymously (see the large number of Breandan McGlinchey tunes, Bobby Casey's tunes etc). I remember one old player who had put together some mighty tunes who said (when I played him back one of his own tunes that had gone through several hands and had been changed considerably in the process) that 'once you let them go, they're out of your hands'. Now, I strongly feel that loosing that does considerable damage, that the threat of the licensing agent knocking on the door is taking tunes out of circulation. Personally I know of several very fine albums in the recent years that didn't include Junior Crehan tunes for fear of dealing with these issues and those were by people who knew Junior well and who would liked in a way have paid tribute to him.
Copyrights are a complex issue and a constant subject of discussion within irish music but I am of the opinion that once tunes are 'accepted accepted into the tradition' they are indeed out of the hands of the composer and that 'rights' should not harshly be enforced among traditional musicians, that it is quite contrary to the spirit of this music.
The case I mentioned is a case in point, a lovely CD by a lovely musician shelved because of the hassle that could be involved.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
I have no problem with virtuosos playing this music, as long as they are still willing to play along in the session with ordinary folks with modest talents like me. When this music stops being something that ordinary people play for fun, it stops being folk music!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
Saltcast & bouzouki_Dave,
With regard to traditional music courses I'll quite happily answer any questions pertaining to the one at Newcastle Universiy. I believe that having a group of people who have an academic understanding of traditional music and song will help to (re)gain respect for folk and enable it to be more widely understood. It also ensures that most of the students leaving the course gain a good understanding of the traditional context through academic and non-academic means.
It seems a bit irrelevant to discuss what the graduates from these courses (13 this academic year) will do, at the least we have a degree equal to many other non-vocational degrees. We have the advantage that at we graduate from a "red-brick" university, which is in the eyes of employers is better than many of the newly converted polytechnics and teacher training colleges now offering degrees.
Re: the attitudes of some people. Personally, I hold responsible the musical communities that young musicians are brought up in for their attitudes.
It should not be forgotten that anyone taking one of these courses since the top-up fees legislation was passed will end up owing the best part of £35,000 (~ $70,000US) for the privilage - not a decision anyone would take lightly.
(Any views I express here are only my opinions, and should not be read as to contstrue a response on behalf of any institution or department within it)
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
Wow Al, that last statement makes me want to raise my hands to the sky and shout "AMEN BROTHER!"
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
But is this a general trend or is it bad behavior by the heirs of one particular composer?
Is there something different about Irish copyright law that makes this particular case especially thorny? Here in the U.S., if a tune has already been released commercially, artists who record it subsequently just have to pay the holder of the copyright a few cents per CD, at a rate established by law. There's no reason that it should be a sting. Or they can request that the copyright holder to waive all or part of the royalty. If the composer takes your point of view, or just realizes that the amount is insignificant, no problem. If not, it's just a small check to write.
A decade or more ago, a lovely traditional American singer, Cindy Mangsen, recorded a song written by English songwriter Jez Lowe. Now, whenever Jez is about to play a concert at my house when on tour in the U.S., Cindy sends me a check for royalties to give to Jez to avoid having to mail it to England, where currency conversion would become more of a hassle than it's worth. The check is usually for a tiny amount (less than a month's telephone bill) and covers about two-years' worth of royalties. Jez' reaction is along the lines of, "that's sweet, but it isn't worth bothering about." I suspect he feels differently for bigger selling covers of his songs where the money is significant.
Of course it's sad when the heirs take a more greedy attitude than the composer did.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
I too am slightly baffled by the idea that a cd should be shelved rather than released and then have to deal with copyright payments. Gary above describes what would seem to be the situation - does this seem to be too much hassle ?
As the old fiddler was quoted "once you let them go, they're out of your hands". By all means, though, acknowledge copyright owners, and pay them, wherever possible.
An older discussion about copyright asked the thorny question of the dance troupe using a commercially recorded cd for their music, being paid for the gig but not crediting or paying the artist on the cd for the use of their music. That is the other side of the coin.
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Tradition vs making a buck
PS I don't know if I'd have had the guts to try it in my day, but it's good that people are being taught about the best of the musical traditions. I just hope that it won't be the prerequisit for success, I feel that natural talent and effort should still be recognised.
On the other hand there was a cracking young scottish band at Towersey last year, four from the Glasgow course, one from Newcastle....I was jealous; never had that opportunity in my day.....
# Posted on April 4th 2007 by Guernsey Pete