Hia, gettin' close to buying my first accordion. I play mandolin,violin,guitar,bassguitar,drums,flute etc. atm. I mostly/only play good ol' irish tunes like finnegan's wake, rocky road to dublin and other (the pogues tunes, flogging molly, the dubliners, dropkick murphys etc). What should i play, a button one or a piano one? Been told that button accordions are "easier" when it comes to scales and taking chords with the righthand, what are the other differences? Ofcourse i will be playing the same kind of music on the accordion as on the other instruments. Wich type of accordion is best for that type of music?
That' a quite load o' questions there. Sorry for that.
But i hope i can get some answers
I play a wee bit on a piano box, but haven't tried button. Remember that a button box is diatonic, it makes a different note when you push in then when you pull out. Piano box is the same both ways. Just a word of caution, your probably gonna get a lot of responses against piano boxes. button players seem to hate them.
Hmm well i was at a big accordion shop yesterday and i tried some button accordions and they all seemed to be chromatic and with a stradella bass system. Hmm.
I don't play any kind of box so my opinion in the matter can be safely ignored, but if you've ever played the piano I'd have thought the pianobox would learn a bit easier.
Don't choose a piano box unless you already play the piano very well, and even then think twice. Get a button box.
Now whether you choose a chromatic button box or a diatonic one, that's a different decision.
The advantages of the diatonic system are that they are comparatively light in weight, they make a punchy sound easy to obtain, and your right hand doesn't have to fly around quite so much. The disadvantages are too numerous to go into here
BTW the term "diatonic" has nothing to do with the fact that you get one note on the push and another on the pull. The word for that is "single-action" or "bi-sonorous". Piano boxes and chromatic button boxes are "double-action" or "unisonorous" (yes, confusing isn't it?).
The "diatonic" bit refers to the fact that the melodeon (single-row box) and its two- and three-row descendants can play only a diatonic scale on any one row. E.g. on a D melodeon, a the notes of a D major scale with no accidentals.
Half-step boxes (B/C, C#/D) could be said to be both diatonic and chromatic, but as all of us that play them know, they're not really a chromatic instrument.
i play itm on b/c button box, but i play other genres such as paris musette on PA. and after several years of mulling this over, i think the party line about PA being "wrong" for ITM is bilge. there is a very wide spectrum to be found within the borders of "genuine" itm between smooth/flowing versus punchy/back-and-forth. if you want punchy/back-and-forth, yes, you would probably need button box, preferably c#/d. but if you like smooth/flowing, PA is great for that sound. but like any other instrument wanting to play itm, such as fiddle, flute, etc, you just have to be sure you calibrate your legato and be sure to get enough note breaks and phrase breaks that you don't go so smooth you cross over into a "classical" sound. i think mirella murray and jimmy keane are both amazing and sound gorgeously, authentically itm.
the above all goes for the melody side. on the bass side, you just have to be sure you don't use all those PA basses in a way that doesn't sound trad.........keep it minimal, keep it light.
on the weight side.....a compact bb is of course preferable to a huge PA for my money....but you could go for a smaller, 24-key PA if PA was what you wanted....
Christoffer -
The button accordions used on Irish music are usually 2 row affairs, with each row giving a diatonic scale of a particular key. The most popular sort had a row in B and a row in C. Other combinations of rows a semitone apart (like C and C#) are also common. Having the two rows a 5th apart (lke D and G) is occasionally found, but rare in Irish playing. So when people on this board talk about a "chromatic button box" most of them are referring to a B/C box with 8 or 12 bass buttons. (Because if you have two diatonic scales a semitone apart you can play a chromatic scale by moving between the rows.) The buttons on both sides produce different notes pushing and pulling.
The chromatic button accordions you saw (with the Stradella bass) produce the same note in both bellows directions and have a unique keyboard layout which makes them handy to play fast music or music that is multi-layered in the right hand. I have never seen one used to play traditional Irish music.
As for piano accordion vs button accordion I think ceemonster has it about right - it's down to personal preference.
Well, since Christoffer says he plays things like Finnegan´s wake, Pogue´s songs, Dropkick Murphy´s etc., and NOT tunes - what would be the point in getting a two-row box? A piano accordion is the obvious choice for anyone interested in that type of stuff.
(This i not meant as demeaning to the PA, I´ve got one as well)
The piano box is better for song accompaniment because you can play in any key very easily. It's also easier to play chords and thirds. You can get small ones, I'd say nothing smaller than 48 bass, but smaller boxes are regarded as learner instruments so the makers don't put the quality into them, hence they sound a bit sh!t.
I would say it's almost impossible to teach yourself the piano box because you have to learn to co-ordinate right and left hands and master bellows control. The button box on the other hand, you can learn a few tunes to blast out quite easily, but the left hand is quite limited, so not many players use it effectively. The button box is more effective for playing a single punchy melody line, which is good for tunes but not necessarily for songs.
If you're only going to dabble on the box then perhaps button would be easier. To contradict myself, Andy Cutting is probably the best song accompanist I've ever heard and he's a button man.
To follow on from Fiddlebabe... that's about all you can do with a button box.. bash out a few tunes. If you want to really play tunes, then go for a piano accordion. Some of the Italian accordions now are so sweet and really have people listening. Yes, you have to master the right and left hands, but once you realise where the chords and single notes are - there is a very easy system to the bass- then everything becomes so exhilerating! Don't know what sort of music you play, but it is ideal for everything from Irishfolk to jazz and blues... it all depands HOW you play it. As for button boxes, you are restricted in what keys you can play in, the piano accordion does not present those difficulties. Happy playing!
The advantage of a single-action or bi-sonourous instrument is that it imposes an accent on the playing. With a pa this has to come from the fingers. Many less able mausicians don't do this with the pa, hence its reputation as a producer of amorphous splurge. Also, there's no volume control as such.
It's easier just to hate them from the beginning, it saves time.
Hmm, thanks for all the interesting comments. I'll make sure i try out some PA's next time i'm in town. Maybe rent one . But i still think BB's are more for me, i just like em'. Thanks for all the help, cheers!
I'm a total newbie when it comes to different tunings of accordions and playing in different keys. It seemed to me that you could play in most keys on a button accordion when i was trying them out, but what do i know .
Definately PA. You can play in any key on button boxes, but transposing is not a simple matter (unless you're trying the English system five and six row models). On a PA you just move up and down the keyboard. And if your main interest in accompanying songs you have far greater scope on a piano box, and the other important bonus - more volume!.
Go for a smaller box to learn on, but from a reputable maker (Hohner / Soprani / Scarlatti). You don't need the full set of basses, but make sure you have six rows - if you only have four you're stuck with bass/counterbass/major/minor and will miss the more interesting augmented & diminished chords. The best compromise between size and range in my opinion is three octaves spread A to E (in other words two complete C to C octaves with a handful of notes above and below them). If you ever decide to play tunes, which you may well do anyway as part of the songs, this will cover just about everything in the tune books.
Beware of second hand accordions - if you're not into taking them apart to repair them, buy from a proper music shop and get at least a year's warranty.
And be warned that if you buy one of the cheap Chinese brands (Baile / Parrott) and have a problem, many repair shops will refuse to work on them.
A new box is way to expensive i'm afraid but the second hand ones they had at that accordionshop were nice and looked/sounded like new boxes (i tried both new and second hand). But hmm...I think playing tunes is more for me since i like playing melodies and improvising within scales. I've learned alot in this thread
"Definately PA. You can play in any key on button boxes, but transposing is not a simple matter (unless you're trying the English system five and six row models). On a PA you just move up and down the keyboard. "
On a 5-row continental chromatic it's even easier. Yyou can just shift your hand to a different position and use the same fingering patterns - for any key. Truly effortless transposition.
This is why I said earlier, get a button box, whether or not you want diatonic or chromatic!
Too many PA players can't play unless they have the bass-buttons going as well (like working-mens-club organists who can't play without moving their feet).
If you can't get a good tune out on the keyboard, there's no hope for you.
Just some thoughts off the top of my head, I would be interested to hear what people think of them:
Judging from what Cristoffer has said, no matter what kind of accordion he gets, shouldn't we be suggesting that he ask for a dry sounding box, with less trememlo, instead of an "old-fashioned" wet box. That is the sound you hear when you listen to the Prodigals. The quality of sound coming out of the box is, in the end, as important as what keys you push to get that sound.....
And should we think about single row melodeon playing? You can do a lot of good stuff accompanying songs with single row style, lots of doublestops, easy fingering, etc. They do it in Cajun music after all. Perhaps he should get one of those inexpensive C/F/G three row boxes from Hohner. Then as soon as he mastered one row, he could, by moving the same fingerings to another row, have three comfortable singing keys to choose from.
Bazouki_dave's comment is my approach since I play the ballad style ITM on PA and tunes on button.
PA is nice for when you need smooth stuff (what us piano players call "run and fill" accompaniment) when you have singers and those sorts. Also, It is not key sensitive like the buttons.
While there are several really good PA players who do tunes, us mere mortals won't get the cripsness of the button sound out of a PA.
bazouki_dave is right about Scotland. Scottish music demands a machine with a lot of basses, played continually - a piano-accordion or a big (3-row or 5-row) button accordion.
In Irish music the basses matter a lot less, though it's an advantage to be able to use them effectively to emphasise a tune. (I don't think it's possible to keep up a continuous bass vamp in the usual keys on the two-row C#/D or D/D# or B/C button boxes used in Ireland - though I could be wrong here).
Okay, thanks for all the great answers. I think i'll go for a 3 or 4 row chromatic buttonbox with a 72 or 96 stradella bass system. I guess it will be difficult playing irish tunes but who knows how long i will stick with the irish music. If i really wanna be able to play them irish tunes i can always get a melodeon later on
No, you get two - but if your melodeon only has two treble reeds per note, as some of the cheaper ones do, your second octave will sound very high / squeaky / ineffectual at the top end. Best to get one which has three reeds per note, two treble and one an octave lower. But it will cost more!
Just meant that with the button box, the key of a particular box (vis-a-vis B/C, C#/D, D/G, E/A whatever) gives it an 'affinity' for certain tune keys.
With the PA doesn't matter what key other instruments are playing. But with few exceptions I've heard can't make a PA give you the charactreristic sound of the Button.
You want the sound of a button, you play the button. If you want the flexibility of a PA play that. Really two fundamentally different instruments, even though they both have reeds and bellows.
Oops, I see Steve Jones(?) has already posted on this. Thanks Jeeves Tones.
Moral of the tale? don't shout off about stuff you don't know about on this site.
BTW, I play 2-row melodeon in D/G. If I were to start again I'd try B/C.
Only a few Piano box players can get an "authentic" sound for Irish music, three of whom I know are on this site. I suspect PB is easier to get started on, but to get the right "punch" it takes longer than Melod or BB.
I play piano box and I prefer the punchier sound of button boxes, most of the time. My favourite box player is Mairtín o Connor.
My accordion is tuned to sound like a button box, more or less, but it doesn't offer quite the same rhythmic possibilities.
The button box is probably harder to learn but more worthwhile in the long run, in my extremely humble opinion, except if you happen to be Martin Tourish, Christian Vaughan-Spruce, Alan Kelly, Mirella Murray, Collette O Leary or Jimmy Keane; noteable exceptions that, unfortunately, prove the rule. The piano box can be a great instrument for Irish music but you have to be prepared to take some risks and is probably one of the few instruments where lessons might do more harm than good.
One of the beautiful things about the limited number of base buttons on the button box is that they tend to be played in a light fashion, which really accentuates the beat notes and gives a lift to the music. With a PA, with so many bases on offer, there is the temptation... and not many PA players seem to be able to avoid it... that you have to play bases ALL THE TIME... which is awful and turns the beautiful music to mush.
Transposing music from one key on a 2-row (C#D or a BC) button-box isn't that hard... just get clever with the fingers and listen to the intervals. Muddle around and it comes out. Learn to find what chords are available on a button box... if you are going to play songs.
I disagree with the comment made by Wendyb above that all they are good for is bashing out tunes... you may not have heard what a 2 row is capable of. Certainly a PA is capable of more flexibility.... but too much? At least in the hands of anyone who isn't an expert?
Yes - but as Conan points out - a PA in the right hands can be gold - Martin Tourish, Christian Vaughan-Spruce, Alan Kelly, Mirella Murray, Collette O Leary or Jimmy Keane and Conan Mcdonnell
Well, Conan is one of the three I referred to.
BTW, Christian is a great player. He also uses the bases, but doesn't make it sound like mush, which, as brown creeper rightly pointed out, happens frequently.
It's down to personal preference at the end of the day. If I was starting over, I'd play the 5-row chromatic with free bass, known in Russia as a Bayan.
I understand why there are piano accordion haters, it's a difficult instrument to play well, which is why you MUST be taught. Although I play PA, I do tend to cringe if I see someone take one out in a session if I've never seen them before. Button boxes are easier to learn, but with any instrument there are masters and abusers.
All bellows powered instruments are capable of great sensitivity, volume comes from applied pressure on the bellows, so saying PA boxes are loud is inaccurate. High quality instruments, whether they're button or piano key have a degree of key/button sensitivity also, depending on the action of the keyboard. Also there are loud boxes due to the reeds and construction of the instrument. On the whole I've found most button boxes to be louder than any PA box that I've ever owned and have been blasted away by button boxes on many occasion.
By far the most sensitive button player I've heard is Dermot Byrne.
Seems like Christoffer wants a unisonorous box with the whole bass system and isn't interested in a two-row box. it's simply a question of piano keys vs. buttons.
There is one box I was very impressed with a few years back at a session in Brittany. You may want to check it out, Christoffer. It's the Saltarelle Chaville, compact with all the basses you want and a tremendous sound. Just a thought.
We have a guy here in RI, Fintan Stanley, who does a great job of playing Irish (and pretty much any kind of dance music) on a chromatic box. Just because most of us play diatonic doesn't mean someone can't use a chromatic to play this type of music!
As I understand it, to get the full benefit of being able to transpose into any key with the same fingering patterns on a CBA (chromatic button accordion), you need a 5-row.
This doesn't necessarily mean extra weight... the inside two rows are duplicates or helpers that depress other keys in the first three rows. In other words, you haven't any extra reeds, just extra linkages.
I had to give up trying to read all the replies that you got.
I am more than a little surprised that someone wasn't " bright enough to say that the Diat. & chromat. think had nothing to to do with buttons or keys It should have read that the chromatic scale has only 5 semit. & diat. has 7. If a student is trying to leaqrn by note, I can say from experience that the p. is a lot easier, because reading the sheet mus. one sees the note going up the page & they play towards their knee, & v. v.
No tryoing to compensate for the contineously reversing lowest note going from button to button. Button boxes are a good bit smaller & easier to carry
Buttonbox I'd say...and I switched to it from PA. It's frustrating at 1st since you can't just pick it up and start playing but it's worth it in the long run.
And why anyone would play that ballad/drinking song crap is beyond me. Trad. beats all heck out of that garbage.
I play a small 3 row CBA and find it easier than a PA despite being able to play piano, and much easier for me than a BC or DG despite playing a single row melodeon as a kid. I. Mine has only 12 basses so it looks like and weighs about the same as a small 3 row diatonic eg GDA, BCC#. The left hand end is much lighter than any PA I've tried so it's possible to do more with the bellows....
Yes there are 3 different key positions, but they're not that different from each other and transposing to another key is easier than any other instrument I've tried, except for the 5 row CBA I have but don't play because of the weight..
Anyone else out there playing something like mine???
I just bought a 3 row Hohner Nove II 48 bass cba -c after renting a cba-c 5 row. Nova II 72 bass for several months.
The weight went from about 15# to about 12#
I gravitated to cba because i am intrigued with the logical ingeneous layout of the treble. The stradella bass is also very ingeneous.
I am 74 years old and found the 16# too heavy.-- also trying to learn to read music but having a tough time.
I can pick out a few tunes from memorizing but having a devil of a time readng music, translating to treble buttons and playin them while all the while operating bellows.
I wish I could find some resources that would talk about fingering pattens for the cba-c. I dont play chords with right hand - just melody.
I don't play Irish music but just tunes I like.
I love the sound of accordion.
If anyone knows of any books on fingering for cba please post links
Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Hia, gettin' close to buying my first accordion. I play mandolin,violin,guitar,bassguitar,drums,flute etc. atm. I mostly/only play good ol' irish tunes like finnegan's wake, rocky road to dublin and other (the pogues tunes, flogging molly, the dubliners, dropkick murphys etc). What should i play, a button one or a piano one? Been told that button accordions are "easier" when it comes to scales and taking chords with the righthand, what are the other differences? Ofcourse i will be playing the same kind of music on the accordion as on the other instruments. Wich type of accordion is best for that type of music?
That' a quite load o' questions there. Sorry for that.
But i hope i can get some answers
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I play a wee bit on a piano box, but haven't tried button. Remember that a button box is diatonic, it makes a different note when you push in then when you pull out. Piano box is the same both ways. Just a word of caution, your probably gonna get a lot of responses against piano boxes. button players seem to hate them.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Hmm well i was at a big accordion shop yesterday and i tried some button accordions and they all seemed to be chromatic and with a stradella bass system. Hmm.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Go for the button if you want to play tunes
the piano if you want to play songs
easy
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Define the difference between tunes and songs, me' wordknowledge is rusty.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
"Tunes" is music without words; "songs" is music with words.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I don't play any kind of box so my opinion in the matter can be safely ignored, but if you've ever played the piano I'd have thought the pianobox would learn a bit easier.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
So Piano boxes are for laying a steady chordbase and button ones are for melodyplaying?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Don't choose a piano box unless you already play the piano very well, and even then think twice. Get a button box.
Now whether you choose a chromatic button box or a diatonic one, that's a different decision.
The advantages of the diatonic system are that they are comparatively light in weight, they make a punchy sound easy to obtain, and your right hand doesn't have to fly around quite so much. The disadvantages are too numerous to go into here
BTW the term "diatonic" has nothing to do with the fact that you get one note on the push and another on the pull. The word for that is "single-action" or "bi-sonorous". Piano boxes and chromatic button boxes are "double-action" or "unisonorous" (yes, confusing isn't it?).
The "diatonic" bit refers to the fact that the melodeon (single-row box) and its two- and three-row descendants can play only a diatonic scale on any one row. E.g. on a D melodeon, a the notes of a D major scale with no accidentals.
Half-step boxes (B/C, C#/D) could be said to be both diatonic and chromatic, but as all of us that play them know, they're not really a chromatic instrument.
Steve
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Ok thanks for all the replies. I think i'm getting a button box with atleast 4 rows
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
if you are going to get a 5 row may as well get a piano box and a truck to transport it
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Oh then i might have over reacted. I don't want a jumbobox, neither a smallbox, i want a normalbox :P
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Have you seen any of these boxes ?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I think the buttonbox is more traditional (am I wrong?) but I've seen some people playing the pianobox too. I prefer the button sound better
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Matt_Celta
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Been looking around at loads of different Accordions lately, i think i'll go for some kind of button box. I like the sound better
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
If Iyou want to hear some real Piano, go to www.edpalmer.com and give it a listen! Thank you.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by edpalmer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Is that a plug Ed ?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Don't listen to that lot. Get a piano box. With 88 keys, and millions of little black buttons on the other side. And sequins! Lots of them, obviously.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I suspect Ed might have attended Bruce (TheNextStage) Pooley's class on how to contribute to thesession.org.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
i play itm on b/c button box, but i play other genres such as paris musette on PA. and after several years of mulling this over, i think the party line about PA being "wrong" for ITM is bilge. there is a very wide spectrum to be found within the borders of "genuine" itm between smooth/flowing versus punchy/back-and-forth. if you want punchy/back-and-forth, yes, you would probably need button box, preferably c#/d. but if you like smooth/flowing, PA is great for that sound. but like any other instrument wanting to play itm, such as fiddle, flute, etc, you just have to be sure you calibrate your legato and be sure to get enough note breaks and phrase breaks that you don't go so smooth you cross over into a "classical" sound. i think mirella murray and jimmy keane are both amazing and sound gorgeously, authentically itm.
the above all goes for the melody side. on the bass side, you just have to be sure you don't use all those PA basses in a way that doesn't sound trad.........keep it minimal, keep it light.
on the weight side.....a compact bb is of course preferable to a huge PA for my money....but you could go for a smaller, 24-key PA if PA was what you wanted....
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Christoffer -
The button accordions used on Irish music are usually 2 row affairs, with each row giving a diatonic scale of a particular key. The most popular sort had a row in B and a row in C. Other combinations of rows a semitone apart (like C and C#) are also common. Having the two rows a 5th apart (lke D and G) is occasionally found, but rare in Irish playing. So when people on this board talk about a "chromatic button box" most of them are referring to a B/C box with 8 or 12 bass buttons. (Because if you have two diatonic scales a semitone apart you can play a chromatic scale by moving between the rows.) The buttons on both sides produce different notes pushing and pulling.
The chromatic button accordions you saw (with the Stradella bass) produce the same note in both bellows directions and have a unique keyboard layout which makes them handy to play fast music or music that is multi-layered in the right hand. I have never seen one used to play traditional Irish music.
As for piano accordion vs button accordion I think ceemonster has it about right - it's down to personal preference.
http://boxteacher.blogspot.com
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by kris
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Well, since Christoffer says he plays things like Finnegan´s wake, Pogue´s songs, Dropkick Murphy´s etc., and NOT tunes - what would be the point in getting a two-row box? A piano accordion is the obvious choice for anyone interested in that type of stuff.
(This i not meant as demeaning to the PA, I´ve got one as well)
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Björn
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
The piano box is better for song accompaniment because you can play in any key very easily. It's also easier to play chords and thirds. You can get small ones, I'd say nothing smaller than 48 bass, but smaller boxes are regarded as learner instruments so the makers don't put the quality into them, hence they sound a bit sh!t.
I would say it's almost impossible to teach yourself the piano box because you have to learn to co-ordinate right and left hands and master bellows control. The button box on the other hand, you can learn a few tunes to blast out quite easily, but the left hand is quite limited, so not many players use it effectively. The button box is more effective for playing a single punchy melody line, which is good for tunes but not necessarily for songs.
If you're only going to dabble on the box then perhaps button would be easier. To contradict myself, Andy Cutting is probably the best song accompanist I've ever heard and he's a button man.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Fiddlebabe
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
To follow on from Fiddlebabe... that's about all you can do with a button box.. bash out a few tunes. If you want to really play tunes, then go for a piano accordion. Some of the Italian accordions now are so sweet and really have people listening. Yes, you have to master the right and left hands, but once you realise where the chords and single notes are - there is a very easy system to the bass- then everything becomes so exhilerating! Don't know what sort of music you play, but it is ideal for everything from Irishfolk to jazz and blues... it all depands HOW you play it. As for button boxes, you are restricted in what keys you can play in, the piano accordion does not present those difficulties. Happy playing!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by wendyb
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
The advantage of a single-action or bi-sonourous instrument is that it imposes an accent on the playing. With a pa this has to come from the fingers. Many less able mausicians don't do this with the pa, hence its reputation as a producer of amorphous splurge. Also, there's no volume control as such.
It's easier just to hate them from the beginning, it saves time.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
PS No one turns round and says " the D whistle can't play in every key". That's not regarded as a disadvantage. Not in ITM.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Hmm, thanks for all the interesting comments. I'll make sure i try out some PA's next time i'm in town. Maybe rent one
. But i still think BB's are more for me, i just like em'. Thanks for all the help, cheers!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I'm a total newbie when it comes to different tunings of accordions and playing in different keys. It seemed to me that you could play in most keys on a button accordion when i was trying them out, but what do i know
.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
PA if you want to play things like dropkick murphys and flogging molly....
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Definately PA. You can play in any key on button boxes, but transposing is not a simple matter (unless you're trying the English system five and six row models). On a PA you just move up and down the keyboard. And if your main interest in accompanying songs you have far greater scope on a piano box, and the other important bonus - more volume!.
Go for a smaller box to learn on, but from a reputable maker (Hohner / Soprani / Scarlatti). You don't need the full set of basses, but make sure you have six rows - if you only have four you're stuck with bass/counterbass/major/minor and will miss the more interesting augmented & diminished chords. The best compromise between size and range in my opinion is three octaves spread A to E (in other words two complete C to C octaves with a handful of notes above and below them). If you ever decide to play tunes, which you may well do anyway as part of the songs, this will cover just about everything in the tune books.
Beware of second hand accordions - if you're not into taking them apart to repair them, buy from a proper music shop and get at least a year's warranty.
And be warned that if you buy one of the cheap Chinese brands (Baile / Parrott) and have a problem, many repair shops will refuse to work on them.
Best of luck with it.
Eno
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
neither
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Kheelch
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
A new box is way to expensive i'm afraid but the second hand ones they had at that accordionshop were nice and looked/sounded like new boxes (i tried both new and second hand). But hmm...I think playing tunes is more for me since i like playing melodies and improvising within scales. I've learned alot in this thread
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
"Definately PA. You can play in any key on button boxes, but transposing is not a simple matter (unless you're trying the English system five and six row models). On a PA you just move up and down the keyboard. "
On a 5-row continental chromatic it's even easier. Yyou can just shift your hand to a different position and use the same fingering patterns - for any key. Truly effortless transposition.
This is why I said earlier, get a button box, whether or not you want diatonic or chromatic!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Too many PA players can't play unless they have the bass-buttons going as well (like working-mens-club organists who can't play without moving their feet).
If you can't get a good tune out on the keyboard, there's no hope for you.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Just some thoughts off the top of my head, I would be interested to hear what people think of them:
Judging from what Cristoffer has said, no matter what kind of accordion he gets, shouldn't we be suggesting that he ask for a dry sounding box, with less trememlo, instead of an "old-fashioned" wet box. That is the sound you hear when you listen to the Prodigals. The quality of sound coming out of the box is, in the end, as important as what keys you push to get that sound.....
And should we think about single row melodeon playing? You can do a lot of good stuff accompanying songs with single row style, lots of doublestops, easy fingering, etc. They do it in Cajun music after all. Perhaps he should get one of those inexpensive C/F/G three row boxes from Hohner. Then as soon as he mastered one row, he could, by moving the same fingerings to another row, have three comfortable singing keys to choose from.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I play both.
Bazouki_dave's comment is my approach since I play the ballad style ITM on PA and tunes on button.
PA is nice for when you need smooth stuff (what us piano players call "run and fill" accompaniment) when you have singers and those sorts. Also, It is not key sensitive like the buttons.
While there are several really good PA players who do tunes, us mere mortals won't get the cripsness of the button sound out of a PA.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by zippydw
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON,
Death to all Piano acordians. I hate them with a passion.
BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON,
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by session savage
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
What do you mean by "key sensitive" Zippydw?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Dont go to Scotland then savage
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Christoffer - I'd say a Melodeon every time!
e.g.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMZZgEtoBbQ
However, that's not to say that it can't be done on a PA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdB3kRRCJDE
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Christoffer it means that some keys are easy some hard and some down right very difficult
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
bazouki_dave is right about Scotland. Scottish music demands a machine with a lot of basses, played continually - a piano-accordion or a big (3-row or 5-row) button accordion.
In Irish music the basses matter a lot less, though it's an advantage to be able to use them effectively to emphasise a tune. (I don't think it's possible to keep up a continuous bass vamp in the usual keys on the two-row C#/D or D/D# or B/C button boxes used in Ireland - though I could be wrong here).
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Okay, thanks for all the great answers. I think i'll go for a 3 or 4 row chromatic buttonbox with a 72 or 96 stradella bass system. I guess it will be difficult playing irish tunes but who knows how long i will stick with the irish music. If i really wanna be able to play them irish tunes i can always get a melodeon later on
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I'm getting the feeling that you are pretty much bound to one octave on a melodeon, am i right?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
No, you get two - but if your melodeon only has two treble reeds per note, as some of the cheaper ones do, your second octave will sound very high / squeaky / ineffectual at the top end. Best to get one which has three reeds per note, two treble and one an octave lower. But it will cost more!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Christoffer
Just meant that with the button box, the key of a particular box (vis-a-vis B/C, C#/D, D/G, E/A whatever) gives it an 'affinity' for certain tune keys.
With the PA doesn't matter what key other instruments are playing. But with few exceptions I've heard can't make a PA give you the charactreristic sound of the Button.
You want the sound of a button, you play the button. If you want the flexibility of a PA play that. Really two fundamentally different instruments, even though they both have reeds and bellows.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by zippydw
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
>Remember that a button box is diatonic, it makes a different note when you push in then when you pull out.
That's absolute nonsense. Diatonic refers to either a major or minor scale, as opposed to chromatic, which is all the notes, if you like. Definitions:
http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+diatonic&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIH
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Oops, I see Steve Jones(?) has already posted on this. Thanks Jeeves Tones.
Moral of the tale? don't shout off about stuff you don't know about on this site.
BTW, I play 2-row melodeon in D/G. If I were to start again I'd try B/C.
Only a few Piano box players can get an "authentic" sound for Irish music, three of whom I know are on this site. I suspect PB is easier to get started on, but to get the right "punch" it takes longer than Melod or BB.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
If money is no object, why don't you get a Castagnari Handry. 3-row. It's a magnificent box and would be a good compromise.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by pennhorse
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I play piano box and I prefer the punchier sound of button boxes, most of the time. My favourite box player is Mairtín o Connor.
My accordion is tuned to sound like a button box, more or less, but it doesn't offer quite the same rhythmic possibilities.
The button box is probably harder to learn but more worthwhile in the long run, in my extremely humble opinion, except if you happen to be Martin Tourish, Christian Vaughan-Spruce, Alan Kelly, Mirella Murray, Collette O Leary or Jimmy Keane; noteable exceptions that, unfortunately, prove the rule. The piano box can be a great instrument for Irish music but you have to be prepared to take some risks and is probably one of the few instruments where lessons might do more harm than good.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Should the pianobox player be required to sound like a b/c or a d/c# player?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Ray Mariani
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I couldn't possibly comment!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I meant c#/d. I had the thing held upside down, dear me.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Ray Mariani
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
One of the beautiful things about the limited number of base buttons on the button box is that they tend to be played in a light fashion, which really accentuates the beat notes and gives a lift to the music. With a PA, with so many bases on offer, there is the temptation... and not many PA players seem to be able to avoid it... that you have to play bases ALL THE TIME... which is awful and turns the beautiful music to mush.
Transposing music from one key on a 2-row (C#D or a BC) button-box isn't that hard... just get clever with the fingers and listen to the intervals. Muddle around and it comes out. Learn to find what chords are available on a button box... if you are going to play songs.
I disagree with the comment made by Wendyb above that all they are good for is bashing out tunes... you may not have heard what a 2 row is capable of. Certainly a PA is capable of more flexibility.... but too much? At least in the hands of anyone who isn't an expert?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Brown Creeper
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Yes - but as Conan points out - a PA in the right hands can be gold - Martin Tourish, Christian Vaughan-Spruce, Alan Kelly, Mirella Murray, Collette O Leary or Jimmy Keane and Conan Mcdonnell
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
When i think buttonbox i think 4 row ones with a stradella bass system (the same as the PA). Those 1-2 rows with 8+ bassbuttons are melodeons to me :(
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Christoffer
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Well, Conan is one of the three I referred to.
BTW, Christian is a great player. He also uses the bases, but doesn't make it sound like mush, which, as brown creeper rightly pointed out, happens frequently.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
It's down to personal preference at the end of the day. If I was starting over, I'd play the 5-row chromatic with free bass, known in Russia as a Bayan.
I understand why there are piano accordion haters, it's a difficult instrument to play well, which is why you MUST be taught. Although I play PA, I do tend to cringe if I see someone take one out in a session if I've never seen them before. Button boxes are easier to learn, but with any instrument there are masters and abusers.
All bellows powered instruments are capable of great sensitivity, volume comes from applied pressure on the bellows, so saying PA boxes are loud is inaccurate. High quality instruments, whether they're button or piano key have a degree of key/button sensitivity also, depending on the action of the keyboard. Also there are loud boxes due to the reeds and construction of the instrument. On the whole I've found most button boxes to be louder than any PA box that I've ever owned and have been blasted away by button boxes on many occasion.
By far the most sensitive button player I've heard is Dermot Byrne.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Fiddlebabe
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Seems like Christoffer wants a unisonorous box with the whole bass system and isn't interested in a two-row box. it's simply a question of piano keys vs. buttons.
There is one box I was very impressed with a few years back at a session in Brittany. You may want to check it out, Christoffer. It's the Saltarelle Chaville, compact with all the basses you want and a tremendous sound. Just a thought.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by pennhorse
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Sorry, it ain't cheap.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by pennhorse
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
We have a guy here in RI, Fintan Stanley, who does a great job of playing Irish (and pretty much any kind of dance music) on a chromatic box. Just because most of us play diatonic doesn't mean someone can't use a chromatic to play this type of music!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
As I understand it, to get the full benefit of being able to transpose into any key with the same fingering patterns on a CBA (chromatic button accordion), you need a 5-row.
This doesn't necessarily mean extra weight... the inside two rows are duplicates or helpers that depress other keys in the first three rows. In other words, you haven't any extra reeds, just extra linkages.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I had to give up trying to read all the replies that you got.
I am more than a little surprised that someone wasn't " bright enough to say that the Diat. & chromat. think had nothing to to do with buttons or keys It should have read that the chromatic scale has only 5 semit. & diat. has 7. If a student is trying to leaqrn by note, I can say from experience that the p. is a lot easier, because reading the sheet mus. one sees the note going up the page & they play towards their knee, & v. v.
No tryoing to compensate for the contineously reversing lowest note going from button to button. Button boxes are a good bit smaller & easier to carry
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by lenamore Man
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
Buttonbox I'd say...and I switched to it from PA. It's frustrating at 1st since you can't just pick it up and start playing but it's worth it in the long run.
And why anyone would play that ballad/drinking song crap is beyond me. Trad. beats all heck out of that garbage.
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by dtb
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I play a small 3 row CBA and find it easier than a PA despite being able to play piano, and much easier for me than a BC or DG despite playing a single row melodeon as a kid. I. Mine has only 12 basses so it looks like and weighs about the same as a small 3 row diatonic eg GDA, BCC#. The left hand end is much lighter than any PA I've tried so it's possible to do more with the bellows....
Yes there are 3 different key positions, but they're not that different from each other and transposing to another key is easier than any other instrument I've tried, except for the 5 row CBA I have but don't play because of the weight..
Anyone else out there playing something like mine???
# Posted on April 13th 2007 by groxburgh
Re: Buttonbox or Pianobox?
I just bought a 3 row Hohner Nove II 48 bass cba -c after renting a cba-c 5 row. Nova II 72 bass for several months.
The weight went from about 15# to about 12#
I gravitated to cba because i am intrigued with the logical ingeneous layout of the treble. The stradella bass is also very ingeneous.
I am 74 years old and found the 16# too heavy.-- also trying to learn to read music but having a tough time.
I can pick out a few tunes from memorizing but having a devil of a time readng music, translating to treble buttons and playin them while all the while operating bellows.
I wish I could find some resources that would talk about fingering pattens for the cba-c. I dont play chords with right hand - just melody.
I don't play Irish music but just tunes I like.
I love the sound of accordion.
If anyone knows of any books on fingering for cba please post links
thanks
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by omsrof