I've had a couple of conversations with people recently who said that some of the younger Irish musicians play when they're high on speed and coke. For some reason I find this absolutely hilarious. What do other people think?
It's April 2nd over here in Oz, and I'm deadly serious. I just find it sort of amusing because I associate party drugs/stimulants with electronic dance music. Not... erm... the Sally Gardens.
I can't imagine that anybody would have the focus to play sets of tunes if they'd just done a line of something tastey or taken an 'e' or somesuch. I reckon it would be instruments down and lots of vacant conversations taking place of the tunes. I've been a listener, not a player, at sessions in that state but it didn't feel right and I reckon playing would have been a tall order. On a slightly calmer note I've been at sessions where many players are stoned on weed or hash. I don't think it enhances the session, except between the frontal lobes of those stoned. A few pints seems to be the optimum stimulant for tunes. In general I would argue that drugs and ITM do not mix.
I used to play with a band who were into the wacky backy . I dont smoke and they would be saying things like Wow we are playing great and I was thinking no we are playing crap.
I resolved just stick to alcohol like everyone else .
The idea of being able to play while on stronger stuff doesn't add up. Sure someone is not pulling your leg Dow?
Da Irish yoof are just like da yoof anywhere else - they will get wasted. Since the range of intoxicants available to them is no different to that available in England, Germany, the US or Oz, they will do it in the same way. The only difference is, in Ireland they also have the music - so they play music and get wasted at the same time.
A great many of the 'hippy' generation of Irish musicians supplemented their intake of those most tradtional of Irish drugs - porter, whiskey, poitín and tay - with the ubiquitous whacco tobacco and Ireland's own native hallucinogen, the one-legged gnomes of the hillside - and, no doubt, other, more powerful substances, when available. So, is it any surprise that today's young trad posse are keeping up with their contemporaries in their modes of self-abuse?
However, perhaps I'm an old fart before my time, but I can't help feeling that white powdery substances are more damaging to traditional music than green leafy ones.
I'll say one more thing on this subject---if I went to a session and I saw that the musicians there were getting high in the bathrooms or wherever, I would leave and never go back. It wouldn't matter how talented they were.
"I can't imagine that anybody would have the focus to play sets of tunes if they'd just done a line of something tastey or taken an 'e' or somesuch"
Sarge - Many of these youngsters will have spent their childhoods competing in fleadhs, so by the time they reach 17 or 18, the tunes are so hardwired into them, nothing can faze them.
I can see how it would give them more energy in their playing and make them play faster and stuff, but isn't that a bit unfair from the point of view of recordings and competitions? Maybe Comhaltas should bring in some doping rules and carry out regular drugs tests.
"I'll say one more thing on this subject---if I went to a session and I saw that the musicians there were getting high in the bathrooms or wherever, I would leave and never go back. It wouldn't matter how talented they were."
I got a parking ticket the other day. Would you play tunes with me?
At our Vancouver sessions, a number of people smoke pot before (and drink tea during) the session. Pot seems to provide a useful mental focus for some (regarding music) and these are pretty good players who do it. Most of them avoid booze, which they say makes them clumsy.
So there's your choices...you can drink a few pints, and fumble yoru way through the tune, or you can smoke pot, and forget what it is you're playing
In the UK drugs (class a-c) would be illegal in a pub. If this was known to the landlord and he did nothing about it then he would run the real risk of losing his licence, having his pub closed down, and facing prosecution. In Bristol a pub not far from where I live (not and never has been a session pub, I hasten to add) was not only closed down but demolished recently and the landlord sent down, for those reasons, which in that case involved also drug dealing and firearms offences - two things which are now closely associated with significant drug use in public places.
Chris- I've experienced this too. I was at a Black 47 show; which yes, i know, isn't quite trad, and i met this kid there who was totally trashed, and refused to play because he never plays when he's drunk, only when he's high. it kinda amused me, i prefer to be in a totally uninhibited state of mind
At the session I go to there's tobacco, alcohol and caffeine!!! How very dare they! It's a den of iniquity I tell you! Shameful behaviour! And then there's the orange juice brigade and that's got vitamins in it! It's an outrage! Some of the women even wear high heels!! Don't get me started!!
This discussion puts a totally different perspective on the "High" reel! Much as I'd be against all drugs at sessions (except of course for the black stuff) i still think vallium might be an option for the speedster brigade - what do you think Wayne?
I'm with Bazouki_dave. If anything on the planet makes me go all po-faced and bereft of humour it's cool drugs talk. If you condone illicit drugs in any shape or form, including deriving humour from talk of them, you're an @rsehole. Full stop.
Right, spoon. Defend the drug culture of our beloved nation. The gun crime, the burglaries, the street robberies, the prostitution, the misery of addiction. Come on, mate, give us a laff. Or is it all OK in Wales?
Drugs are not funny (although some of these situations have, admittedly, been amusing) in ANY situation. Yes, it's more interesting that they're being used at sessions than at raves, but that's doesn't make it any much of a better idea.
Somewhere along the line of having people you love killed by drunk/stoned drivers, having your mother come home crying from playing the funeral of a 26-year old crack addict, and having friends grow up as self-respecting people and suddenly start calling you in the middle of the night with all their equally drugged up friends, it stops being funny. In any setting.
How traditional is theobromine? Caffeine-like alkaloid in chocolate, legal, doesn't make you (more) stupid or drowsy, tasty to ingest. Of course you have eat mountains to have a decent effect. Yet, you could do worse.
How available would chocolate have been in "traditional" times? Very hard to come by, and out-of-this-world expensive, too, I imagine.
Anyway, to get the best effect from chocolate eat the dark stuff; the ordinary bars contain far too much milk.
Although actually - this is a pretty big thing in some parts with regards to trad music - and at least Dow had the balls to bring it up. So good on you Dow - but why dont you just start a lovey huggy thread just to make sure that the lads who are uncomfortable about the truth dont get too sad.
Its a sh*te and scary thing that is happening.....it scares me that my son will prob end up playing the music because the amount of sh*te that I have seen at trad parties in some parts of the world is actually quiet shocking. But why dont we just pretend it isnt happening.....
"Right, spoon. Defend the drug culture of our beloved nation."
I'm not defending anything. Just asking.
I don't condone self-destruction. But people do it. The extent to which people actually set out to destroy themselves varies considerably - that goes for users of all 'recreational' drugs, legal and prohibited. It is a sad fact that, very often, it is the most creative of people who succumb to self-destructive ways, whether through alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis or heroin.
Yes, certain drugs are inherently more dangerous than others - but it hardly needs saying that the boundaries are not 'black-and-white', and the legal classification of a drug is not *necessarily* consistent with the actual likelihood and extent of harm it can do.
Back to the initial topic of this discussion, over 6 summers I have spent in the West of Ireland, I have met countless musicians, aged 16 to 60 and beyond, some of them well-known and well-respected, who enjoy substances other than alcohol for their recreation - and I've heard them play great music. This is not to say the music might not have been *even greater*, had they not indulged. But how many musicians do we know who 'can't play' until they've had a pint or two.... or twelve? I'll bet there are almost as many in Ireland today who wouldn't even think of starting a tune without a couple of quick drags on a joint first.
Predictably we get that tired old sh!te equating illegal drugs with "far more harmful" baccy and booze. So this pretty bad stuff is OK because the legal stuff isn't too good either. Well, I mean, what kind of argument is that. Do me a favour, chaps, will you! Mr spoon, your post reads very much like "justification on artistic grounds" to me, the Brendan Behan/Dylan Thomas syndrome sort of style, another hackneyed ol' bunch of bollox.
Now Mick, I don't know whether you're being serious. If you post "what's wrong with prostitution, and I'm being serious" you'll get an answer all right and it will have bugger all to do with church morals I assure you!
Spoon, I didn't even have cannabis in mind when I started this thread. I was talking more about full-on stimulants. Like you said, cannabis is hardly a new thing to mix with trad.
I was hoping for some evangelical "shocked in Ross-On-Wye" responses Keep 'em coming, they're hilarious.
i'm late to this topic and it is indeed fascinating......
"absolutely hilarious"----well, yeah, at least in the sense that my frequent line about the current rage for hopped-up hyper-speed & over-the-top staccato ornamentation sounding like "chipmunks on crack" has some truth to it!
but on a serious note......as someone who has had some life experience and exposure in this area, my thought from touching my finger to my tongue and holding it up to test the wind in ennis as well as in a corner of quilty was that drugs and their consumers were definitely around. while i was there in ennis on one sojourn the local paper ran a big front-page story that clare, as in, the whole county, was awash in illegal drugs, but, annoyingly, did not break down which drugs they were talking about. i got a very strong "meth" and "coke" feeling in some pockets i passed through and around some clumps of folks. and it was an ugly, icky feeling, though not one i find unusual. i come from a lower-class white suburb of a huge city, and when i was a teenger and college student, many younger folks i knew were doing all the crank, coke and angel dust they could get their hands on....i was around quite a bit of that in northern california later on.....and my antennae did go up here and there in clare. one day a young male of 20ish careened into the hostel in ennis while i was staying there. he was not a guest there. he was trying to force his way in, and he scared the people who were working there....he was wearing the Eminem outfit that seems to be favored by young males around the world these days. and he was pie-eyed on something, absolutely pie-eyed, in a scary way. it was not weed. it was not coke or meth. i actually got him to leave.....i don't think it was X or an organic hallucinogen; i knew a lot of ravers & deadheads in northern cal.......it was something like "ice" or one of those scary chemical drugs. look, clare is like everywhere else these days---and in rural america meth and such are big, big, big business.
as for the musical part----people who think they are gonna be able to play high are idiots. being an idiot is part of being a kid. let's hope it's just a stage for most of them. harder drugs than the leaf have been around itm since the 60s/70s....it just hasn't been on the front page of the paper......
"I didn't even have cannabis in mind when I started this thread."
No, Dow. I just like to do things gently. I leave it to the likes of you to shock sensitive souls.
"your post reads very much like "justification on artistic grounds""
If that's how you choose to read it, Steve. Perhaps you, like ceemonster, have been led by your own personal experiences to have the views that you express here. But, unlike ceemonster, you haven't given us the background.
As for humour, it's just people's way of coping with their anxieties.
dow, yes, sorry, i did figure you meant people who "can" play....i guess how i should have put it was, people who think they will play as well high, or who think it won't hurt if not destroy their music to make a habit of playing high.....are idiots.....
Welcome back Steve. How long did you stay away from thesession again? The last time I remember this type of bullying and ranting was from you in 2004. And back then you said you were leaving because of the glee club.
Nice to know that time hasn't wearied you of your disgruntled persona, but ease off on the throttle will you?
Steve, I don't want to start world war three, but it's a bit rich hearing complaints about peoples choices of drug from someone who confesses to have used '3 bottles of Katy' (7.3 % Cider) before posing on this board ....
Alcohol worse than ecstasy on shock new drug list
James Randerson, science correspondent
Friday March 23, 2007
The Guardian
Some of Britain's leading drug experts demand today that the government's classification regime be scrapped and replaced by one that more honestly reflects the harm caused by alcohol and tobacco. They say the current ABC system is "arbitrary" and not based on evidence.
The scientists, including members of the government's top advisory committee on drug classification, have produced a rigorous assessment of the social and individual harm caused by 20 substances, and believe this should form the basis of any future ranking.
By their analysis, alcohol and tobacco are rated as more dangerous than cannabis, LSD and ecstasy.
They say that if the current ABC system is retained, alcohol would be rated a class A drug and tobacco class B.
As a former puffer and drinker, how dare I issue advice or warnings to anyone. But I will.
It has become increasingly evident recently that there is a marked risk of developing schizophrenia and drug abuse, in particular cannabis, and even more in particular young users with a two to three fold increase in risk among users.
Here's an an interview with Robin Murray from our Institute of Psychiatry. It's quite lengthy and the stuff about drug use and increased risk of SCZ is further down: http://www.schizophreniaforum.org/for/int//Murray/murray.asp
I take this very seriously. My girl Roisin (15) hangs around with a bunch of kids. Near enough all the boys among them puff away. These kids are from middle class urban backgrounds. It will be tragic to see if any of them go a bit weird in a few years time. (BTW, Roisin just got a Merit in grade 4 piano - no bad eh?)
Yes Danny, in my mind, the big 3 drugs that really need warnings on the pack are Alcohol, Tobacco and Cannabis. They seem to be the ones that people have most problems getting off, and which seem to lead to long-term chronic problems. I'd rather spend time in the company of a dope smoker than someone wired up on coke or speed, but having seen the debilitating effects of long-term use at close hand, I think that people should be made aware of the dangers. Having survived to the age of fifty, and having lived most my life surrounded by (and indulging in) quite heavy drinking and the regular smoking of both legal and illegal substances, it's very interesting to look around now and note the current status of my friends:
Only one smokes (anything)
Only a handfull of us drink very much. Of those that do, a few have a 'serious problem' with it.
But having said that, life is there to be lived, we've done it all and come out the other side, hopefully wiser. And I've personally had a lot of fun along the way. Maybe we have to risk damaging ourselves to get the most out of the game(?)
And with regard to alcohol, just to tease Steve:
The Department of Health advises that men should not regularly drink more than 3 - 4 units of alcohol per day, and women should not regularly drink more than 2 - 3 units of alcohol per day. After an episode of heavy drinking it is advisable to refrain from drinking for 48 hours to allow your body to recover. This is a short term measure. People whose pattern of drinking places them at significant risk should seek professional advice.
1 x 500ml bottle of Katy varietal cider constitutes 4.2 Units
Well - over here the cigarette packets do have very graphic warnings all over them.....ones with little premmie sick babies and people with mouth cancer...
Well, the day is passed, so who's the biggest fool at last ?
Interesting that the tone of the discussion changed so rapidly.
For my ha'pporth........I've been around since the '60s', certainly remember times when good musicians thought they were hilarious( in front of a paying audience ) and couldn't tune or get more than four numbers into a half-hour set owing to the joint they had in the interval. Also remember the three times I've been in fear of my life on the Tube, owing to a drunken Celt ( they were respectively Scots, Irish, and Geordie ), and also remember the family my church-going mother was trying to do some social work for, the alcoholic husband and the tubercullar wife, and the damage alcohol did to that family.
I agree absolutely with the article in the Guardian, and look forward to the banning of tobacco shortly in public places; I also think that it is hypocrisy that maintains the current legislation on drugs, and lumping all unfavoured things together does no good to any sort of regulation - look what Prohibition in the US did for the rise of organised crime, and peoples' attitude to the law.
I feel that moderation is something that needs to be learnt - I would no more want to get out of my head on cannabis, cocaine, or alcohol, and certainly not while trying to play; on the other hand some people are so unhappy that sooner or later they will find something to ruin their lives with.
Two people I know well at the local session have had serious drug problems. In both cases it was booze (usually beer, with maybe the odd whiskey thrown in) and dope. Never seen anyone do anything harder. But the alcohol & grass do enough damage on their own. Luckily both people had the support of the musical community in getting over their problems.
So it IS OK to condone the others "because booze and fags are worse?" Fallacious, fallacious. And who the hell are you, grannywiggly or whatever your latest soubriquet is? I really can't be arsed to research who you used to be when all you can do is spit like that. Have a nice day yourself!
As for smiling oh, I can smile, but not at a thread that contains loads of posts that condone the use of illicit substances. And therefore robbery, violent crime, premature death, mental illness, destitution and prostitution slavery. I'll take a happy pill later, or maybe two or three bottles of Chilean cabernet will do the trick. Wake up.
At the risk of being branded an '@rsehole. Full stop.'
No one has asked you to to 'condone' their behaviour.
robbery = A small number of persistant offenders supporting Crack, heroin and other expensive drug habits
violent crime = Mostly fuelled by alcohol
premature death = Statistically, mostly Alcohol again
mental illness = Alcohol and Cannabis,
destitution = Capitalism, Alcohol, Crack, Heroin
prostitution slavery = Men
Some of these things are 'illicit', some aren't, I can't see the relevance of the term myself.
Interesting to note a number of abstainers among the older/experienced players on this site. Might this suggest that the music is the ultimate drug that keeps us going when all else fails?
Of course, if the music were supplied only on prescription, and then only to old farts, that would solve the 'speed kills' issue overnight
I've often found that the people who go overboard with their anti-drug rants are the ones who are still resentful of the fact that they never got invited to parties in the 60s and 70s.
I haven't read an "anti-drug rant" on this thread. What I rail against is the implicit condoning of the use of illicit drugs, most of which (apart from the ones you grow in yer garden) are surrounded by a vile sub-culture of addiction, family breakdown, ruthless criminality and misery. Yep, booze can do all that, so that makes 'em all right then. Contorted logic or what. You condone it by making light. JimR's post is a classic example. This is a public forum, n'est-ce pas?
I don't remember anyone called groanwaggle from the old days. Maybe s/he was a smirking lurker.
What do you hope to achieve by bullying Greenwiggle? Does it make you feel better? Do you get a rush of pleasure from posting insults? Do you regret it and tell yourself you'll never do it again, only to find yourself doing the same thing the very next day? If there's anything we can do to help you get out of this downward spiral, we're here for you, Steve.
Nope - sorry Steve, Greenwiggle has been on here are really really long time and not as a lurker. But he doesnt get into stupid arguments like you and I - he is the helpful comment type so he doesnt usually waste time slagging...
I still dont notice anyone condoning the illicit drug use. Nobody here has said anything like " Heroin is really cool " In fact most people here are saying they are totally against it.
Dows original post should be read as " It is so funny, because it is really stupid to do that stuff" So not like Funny haha - more like funny just kind of sad.
I dont like any kind of drugs the plant ones included. And I do realise booze and ciggies are bad too, although I still indulge.
>Do you get a rush of pleasure from posting insults?
Surely you of all people would know the answer to that one Dow.
To me, it's up to each individual if they want to use drugs - and I have done. It's part of life here. But I won't in future.
If weed didn't increase risk of schizophrenia, I wouldn't be negative about it. But it does, especially in adolescent brains (ages 12-18) which are undergoing the second major (and 2nd biggest) phase of development, due to, among other things, hormonal changes. The first big (and biggest) phase of brain development is in little children aged 2-5, and no-one would want them puffing at spliffs, would they?
Why is that? because we intuitively think it would be bad for their brains. So why should we think it's ok for our adolescent kids to do the same?
Most people I know take some form of "illicit" drugs.
None have killed anybody,lost their job/home/wife whatever.
In fact to these people drugs have had an overwhelmingly positive effect (thats why they take them).
Some of the best times of my life have involved the use of some sort of controlled substance yet 17 years after my first joint I still have not been "surrounded by a vile sub-culture of addiction, family breakdown, ruthless criminality and misery"
If a drug has a negative effect STOP doing it.Legality has nothing to do with it.
In fact the fact that using drugs can result in a prison sentence stops addicts from seeking help.The law is the problem more than the drugs.
Im not reccommending that people do drugs of any kind but lots of people do without it having a negative impact on their lives.
Why should anyone care what I do to my own body as long as it doesnt affect anybody else?
Of course children and adolescents shouldnt do drugs but its the illegality that makes it so easy for them to get their hands on them- Legalise and control the drug trade rather than letting your kids buy drugs off gangsters
As for musicians- probably at least half of the musicians that people here would regard as heroes indulge in a bit of class A criminality.
There seems to be a consensus of opinion here that drink & smoking are as bad as any of the so-called harder drugs & KML said: "The first big (and biggest) phase of brain development is in little children aged 2-5, and no-one would want them puffing at spliffs, would they?" But what about a child's development ... before it's born?
I'm sure we've all known, to my mind, totally irresponsible, mothers who smoke & drink all through pregnancy & fathers who do likewise while with their spouse. I'm sure that is bound to have a negative effect on the child's development too, isn't it?
So how many boozin', faggin' pregnant women have you seen playing in a session? I know I've seen a few. I can't honestly say though, if I've ever seen anyone high "on speed and coke", because in all honesty I wouldn't know the signs but hey, if parents are stupid enough to abuse their unborn kids bodies with the detrimental effects of the *more acceptable drugs*, () then I've no doubt that there are some out there who wouldn't think twice about doing so with the harder ones.
Perhaps it should be the responsibility of the session host to dissuade the use of hard drugs at, or before, a session? I know I would not tolerate a drunk musician at our sessions & I would certainly send a dope, speed or coke head packing! Be honest, would you tolerate them in your session?
Our music should be a big enough *High* for us all, shouldn't it?
P.S. Less than 4 weeks to go & then we'll finally be free of the Nicotine Heads in our session pubs here! .... Yipppeeee
Key, I was avoding this and then saw your comment. My dear niece suffered that effect. I knew here well, and as she grew up. When rebelling and getting involved with the wrong sorts, yes, I'm judging that ~ the 'wrong' sorts, she started smoking mj. The change in her was dramatic, and paranoia was one nasty side effect, and depression. She wasn't the child I'd known for the previous 16 or more years... She has quit but still has problems, problems she didn't have before taking up the weed.
I apologize, I haven't followed all of this, for one because I was afraid of it. I've lost friends to shight, and I include tobacco and alcohol in with the lot called 'drugs'. I've seen minds and lives fried and damaged by it, so I knew I'd rant, which it seems I'm now doing...
Back on the 'smoke', whether it is tobacco or weed, it eats away at your insides, destroys the lining of your lungs and digestive track and KILLS! I don't know one relative or friend who kept up the addiction who wasn't killed by it, and who didn't suffer going down. I have also cringed seeing the inconsiderate act of parents exposing their addiction to the innocent, meaning their children and anyone else in breathing distance of their fumes...
I don't blame the addict. I believe all drugs should be legal, so we know who needs help and so things are open and accessible and help is possible. The current situation sucks...making criminals of addicts... It ain't right. ~ nuff said...
Good advice, Jim. It's just that one of the negative effects that a of drugs have is that they make you want more. Try telling someone who's about to sink their 18th pint that they've had enough. Try telling *anything* to someone who's off their head on coke.
I hear spoon players like crack cocaine and heroin. Is this true?
How do you know who is doing what and when because it is kept so quite.
Doesnt bother me if some one smokes some whacky backy as long as they dont expect me to do it too.
I know lots of musicians who do it but I think it doesnt effect their music. It actually makes them play way slower. Especially on disprin.
I know you're a "consensus" sort of guy, ptarmigan, but I think you're out of luck this time. Drugs - including alcohol and tobacco as well as all the others - are just too emotive an issue.
If we're honest, I would have thought that most of us (surely it must be *all* of us?) know someone whose lives have been completely ruined by drugs (again incl t&a) ... and that tends to make it emotive.
But you won't get a consensus because some people will tell others to 'lighten up' and that they just want to have fun, and it's just 'recreation'.
(Not shocked of Ross-on-Wye, Dow, just a bit fatalistic.)
>But what about a child's development ... before it's born?
Yep, good point as is your subsequent comments.
Just to clarify, I meant brain development in children who are already born. Much of the change that takes place in babies' brains post partum are apoptotic, ie many neurons get programmed to die, if apropriate connections from other neurons aren't made. That "selection" initially "shapes" our brains. So I was referring to after that process.
The ancient Celtic shamans (aka 'Druids') would often get totally tripped out on belladonna, mistletoe, mandrake and/or the wide assortment of mushrooms that has been available to man all over the world and used for their shamanistic mental voyages.
Musicians were a part of the Druidic class of society in the ancient Celtic world, so no doubt they were often enlisted to provide a musical soundtrack for such shamanistic voyages.
Or perhaps they even joined in, and the effects of traveling between the worlds would have been heard on their music...
…and it probably sounded like a buncha ancient Celtic musicians tripping their faces off, trying to remember the notes to that reel called “When Bob the Druid Comes Back from the Spirit World”…
Nothing wrong with a spliff and a stout/ lager/ ale (especially at sessions- possibly even essential!) but lay off the top shelf, gak, whites and the rest and you'll be OK.
It helps one get into "automatic pilot" mode when backing at a session and plainly helps one play better...but everyone is different.
There is a tradition you know! The tradition of weed and playing music. Over the generations many innovative and virtuoisic musos have been known to toke the occasional zut!
What is a pain is all the self-righteous idiots (with minges or that have been dipped in Detol) that lump all things into "drugs" but exclude fags and hard booze and then lecture on about what's illegal/ bad for us/ morally justified and such like...
I used meth for 15 years and played the whole time, and was miserable the whole time. My playing got worse and I finally hermited myself away from the rest of the world (outside the drug culture). Four years clean now, and my playing is finally starting to come back to where it was before all the stupid sh*t. So it is VERY possible for players to use speed and play trad, I just couldn't maintain it. I never lost my love for the music during that time, but I lost my ability to be functional for anything other than using the drug. Everyone does. I've known some extremely talented musicians, artists, mechanics and people in every other profession loose everything because of that sh*t. No one can do it for long without loosing themselves to it.
Well I don't take any drugs (including alcohol and tobacco - and coffee/tea) but I know plenty of people musicians and non-musicians who do. I used to think, growing up that it was something underground and dangerous done by people with no hope in their lives as an escape and it scared me to death. What if my sister or a friend or future children got into this? How would I cope?
I don't know if it is a good thing or not that I now view drugs a little differently. I still would not go near them myself and I still worry a bit about how it might effect those close to me in the future but there is simply not the option of Kennedy's of leaving a session, or similar situation and never going back as it would probably leave me with nowhere to go. Drugs are too widespread.
I have been at a party once where people took coke in another room from me. They spent a fortune and the only effect I could see is that they could no longer play their instruments. I am not sure what I expected but they did not get aggressive or nasty as I have seen happen with alcohol but they did become musically useless and their chat disappeared. They insisted that they were having a great time and I wouldn't know because I have never tried it and they might be right but as long as I can keep on having a good time stone cold sober then I see no need to do anything else.
People can forget the idea that this thread was an April Fools joke however. Illegal hard drugs are very popular with young folk in society and people with disposable incomes. If you have young professional musician who have a disposable income (even if they are not making fortunes) and they have no job to get up for in the morning so their life becomes a bit like a big long party, sleeping in the mornings then what do you think they will be doing? Yes that is right. The same as anyone else in their position.
"Nothing wrong with a spliff and a stout/ lager/ ale (especially at sessions- possibly even essential!) but lay off the top shelf, gak, whites and the rest and you'll be OK."
I don't think it's any more useful to say, "you'll be OK" than it is to condemn all illicit drugs indiscriminately. Ceolachan's story is enough to tell us that there *are* risks, however small they may (or may not) be:
"My dear niece.... smoking mj. The change in her was dramatic ... paranoia.... depression.... She has quit but still has problems".
People should know that there are risks before making the decision to indulge. Probably like a large proportion of smokers of the 'Holy Weed', I am not unfamiliar with the effects that C's niece experienced, albeit to a much milder extent. It also burned a considerable hole in my pocket - not to mention countless small ones in my shirts. It was enough to make me realise that I couldn't do it all the time and 'be OK'. Fortunately for me, I can still enjoy an occasional toot without ill effects. Some people can't do so, or simply don't have the strength of will to keep it 'occasional'. Some, on the other hand, can chain-smoke the most potent genetically mutilated skunk and still lead a stable and productive life. Life isn't fair. Or is it? Why do people want to spend their whole life stoned, anyway?
Let me just start by reiterating that I think that drugs do not generally enhance the playing of ITM. And I do have to agree with Danny's assertion that the links between spliffing, especially skunk, and schizophrenia are becoming too well documented to ignore. I had a close friend at university who became utterly lost to schizophrenia. I know three other lads from my school days who also developed the condition. They were all heavy stoners. And I can appreciate the testimony of people like Marty above. Without wanting to diminish anybody's personal sorrows or suffering though, I do have to disagree with the line, stated or implied, that taking up with drugs inevitably ends in misery. This is just not true.
I took drugs hard and soft regularly for almost a quarter of a century. It never caused any major problems, although I had a few scrapes with the law. Otherwise I have always had a good job, developed professionally and am happily married. I eventually sort of 'moved on' from drugs, the same way perhaps that I outgrew the thrill of motorbikes. Most of my friends also took drugs regulary, some continue to do so, and with the exception of the lad at uni, none of us came to grief. It's like driving, some people will have bad accidents, most will not. And just before anybody jumps in and says that's a facetious analogy, at the end of the day, I think that cars and the automobile industry will be judged a much greater source of harm to mankind and the planet and our collective quality of life than drugs.
Ptarmigan, you say that you would chase anyone from 'your' session if they were drunk. Surely that's laying it on a bit theatrically? Most musicians I know at sessions (and I was reared in a fairly conservative part of Ireland) are drunk, if not when they walk in the door, then by the time they leave. Now they aren't so drunk they're falling over or talking endless sh!te or playing badly. But they certainly would be over the limit if it came to a breathalyser. But they remain consumately charming and considerate and beyond a liability to laugh a bit too easily and a little bit too long at weak jokes are great company. Are these the people you would chase from 'your' session? Similarly, if someone was slightly out of it on any illicit substance and was still able to function in a non-intrusive way, what on earth business would it be of yours?
The dangers of crossposting Part 61. Both 'No Cause for Alarm' and 'Spoon' managed to get in and say it more succinctly while I was furrowing my brow at the keyboard.
bb. Greenwiggle may well be in the habit of not getting into arguments and not slagging and always making helpful comments as you say, but his one and only post to this thread was a piece of spiteful vitriol directed straight at me from the blue (whoever he is I don't recall having a history with him!) and definitely not to the point. I've been posting here for weeks now and have contributed quite well I feel and displayed humour at times. Not in this topic I freely admit, for reasons I HAVE bothered to give. He hasn't been following, obviously. He sees a controversial post from me then spits without checking recent history. It really isn't very nice. Maybe you need to ask him what he's on.
Hmmm. I don't see any vitriol in Greenwiggle's post, but I did find it in spades here:
"Every bloody thing that you don't agree with is "hilarious" to you it seems, Dow you pompous sod! Turn the friggin' record over why don't you! What a bore!"
No smiley emoticons, no hint that it's meant in jest. Maybe that's what greenwiggle was responding to. And I'd tend to agree with him.
This discussion started out being about kids doing coke and speed at Irish music sessions, and has morphed into name calling and people defending marijuana and alcohol.
Coke and speed are SOOOO much different from pot and alcohol, I can't see how anyone could miss this. Anyone ever see pictures of a meth lab cleanup site? Seen young children burned by fires from meth stoves? Seen the toxic waste that gets dumped into backyard creeks? One pound of meth produces 6 pounds of toxic waste.
And then there's the cocaine smuggling trade. Whole wars down in Colombia just so rich Western kids can stick spoons in their noses.
Sergeant fox, you asked earlier what's screwed up about coke and speed. It's not just about you and the fun you have when you get high. These drugs come from somewhere---somebody makes them and transports them---there are real costs, people get hurt, and you support that every time you buy a bag from your dealer friend. I just don't find any of this to be humourous or cool.
Wow, what a downer I am. Sorry everyone. I'm happy to say I haven't seen any of this at any of the sessions I go to, though---as far as I know, it's all good clean fun.
I don't think I ever implied, let alone thought, that it was 'humorous or cool'. And thank you for the patronising sermon about it 'not just being about you and the fun you have when you get high'. I am of course well aware of the links between western drug markets and misery and violence in the third world/developing world which is primarily where I have lived and worked for the last decade. My heroin escapades were largely in south east Asia and bizarrely my crack experiences were in West Africa. So please don't lazily castigate me as some sort of rich kid driving my dads Merc across the tracks to score for my college friends. The places where I have worked and consumed drugs do indeed suffer in some ways from western demand. In many other ways local people prosper. The Afghan smallholder, the Bolivian peasant, formerly perhaps their Vietnamese counterparts can all make more from illicit crops than from the more traditional crops. And just while we're up on our soapboxes Kennedy, the same places that I have been working for the past decade have had their national fabric much more severly damaged by the military adventures of your fatherland and the disasterous policies of the neo-liberal, structural adjusting economists who came along in their wake. If you're so appalled at the misery and violence in much of the southern hemisphere (that's not a sideways dig at Dow and bb!) your righteous ire might be more usefully directed at the issue of third world debt.
Actually, yeah, you did imply that it was cool. You wrote that you were working on getting stoned.
And I'm sorry to sound patronizing. The "you" was intended more as a universal "you"---"you" who don't understand what's screwed up about coke and speed. Anybody who doesn't get that is either naive or ignorant or something else, I don't know.
And you yourself might not be the rich kid driving your father's Mercedes to buy from your dealer, but a lot of kids are, and these are the kids I believe Dow was writing about in the first place. They're the ones who are just interested in having fun and don't see what's bad about it.
That was a joke, Kennedy. I just couldn't resist riffing off Dow's previous comment where he said that for my views I deserved to be 'stoned to death'!. If you'd read on you would see that I wrote that as I grew older I left drugs behind. Nowadays its vipassana meditation and marathon running that floats my boat. And I'm sorry if I got a bit shirty in that previous post.
Much as I dislike getting involved in a slanging match (ubless someone's got one of those perishing tuner thingies nearby ) I also don't like to see someone attacked for no particularly good reason. I've never seen Kennedy be anything other than gentle ... until this thread, when the subject was obviously a sensitive one.
So why attack Kennedy - who is, after all, entiled to an opinion - even if you do take it back later?
"I took drugs hard and soft regularly for almost a quarter of a century. It never caused any major problems"
I wouldn' be so sure, fox ... unless it's the vipassana meditation that's winding you up?
I've finally took the time and set my worries aside and read all of the above... It turns out to have been as scary in places as I imagined, downright personal at times... A sign that things have deteriorated is when all the world's whoes are suddently brought in to the argument, like the ozone layer and things geo-political...
Brow furrowing at the keyboard, checking out the condition of my soapbox, will it support my weight? I am basically siding up with Kennedy and ptarmigan, if we need to state sides and inclinations...
Yea, I've known some folks who have dabbled in drugs (& I am inclusive) and are still standing, but I don't know if that necessarily equates as healthy and unaffected. Some folks are willing to accept some things as acceptable and OK that I can't. In sessions the two worse things that raise memories in me aren't the occassional splif, as some have said, it's people who can't play because either alcohol or tobacco or both have eaten away at them and reduced their ability to make music. I've seen it done to some damned talented people, and wonderful characters, many that are no longer with us because of the destruction working deeper... I am not thinking of one of the best young pipers I've ever heard, who in our regular meets fell deeper and deeper into alcoholism and at the end was all shakes, couldn't play worth shight... And there are a few famous musicians who favoured the splif that were a**holes under the influence, but thought themselves as funny, while having a tendency to muck up the music and to treat others with disrespect.
I'm also with Ptarmigan in that we didn't stand for any crap in our events. Alcohol was present, but drunks were moved on and anyone flashing drugs around was soon booted out. All our activities were family events, including any sessions, which tended to be house sessions or in local village halls. I didn't like myself under any of those possible influences, wouldn't want to make music with my inebriated self ~ and consequently have no interest in making music with drunks or those who have given up a sizeable percentage of their consciousness to chemicals rather than being here with the rest of us and the music and craic. No, that shight doesn't contribute to the craic for me, it takes away from it. I also am not fond of cleaning up after an alcohol or drug induced sick friend, mentally or all over the furniture and floor.
Music and nature are all the high I need for my shamanistic voyages...
I like Marty Smith's tale, which I take as saying that in a sense the music helped to carry him along and eventually helped to pull him out of the shight and madness?
'Alarm', yes, my experience too ~ they imagine they are the life of the party, some even imagine they can play and are hot. And there are those that have just figured out the answer to some major world ill, which may be a further figment? I choose to no longer nurse the drug dependant, whatever their 'drug' of choice is, including alcohol & tobacco... I consider it a waste of time and effort. it is my experience that truly wasted musicians haven't the slightest inclination or ability to be musical... I worry for them, but I also worry for their instruments and those that have to clean up after them, a job I've had my share of. Maybe if I were equally wasted I'd be able to appreciate the noise, but no thank you... I prefer the company of my unjudgemental pioneer friends...
I am a bit fed up with stereotypes, like that of the Irish drunk, or the Irish drunk (drugged) musician, or that somehow that is a necessary part of it all ~ bullshigt! There are a hell of a lot of 'pioneers' in Eire too, and most of my friends, musical and otherwise, were not drunks. There were a few I've carried to a safe place after a session and they blotto, only a few. I've also done the research into the history of the thing too. While the drunken excesses survive in story, naturally, most gatherings and house and crossroad and other times of music and dance and social craic ~ were not to the point of abuse. In times of want and poverty even the grain and potatoes that make poteen are measured carefully...
Yeah searg, however, with the growth in product for the west the cheap availability of those things in the countries where they are cultivated means a huge and growing population of addicts, for example in Afghanistan, Bolivia, and elsewhere, and around those poppy fields and processing plants, including children...
The greater profit is amongst the criminal elements in the West. What scares them most? ~ loss of profit! ~ that we might control drugs ~ by making them legal...
I agree Ceol. My kids go to a school where the fit healthy fathers are the drug pushers who won't take the stuff themselves (doesn't that tell you something? Would anyone here trust a cook who wouldn't eat her own food?) and the skinny, death pale mothers and fathers are the addicts who haven't yet had their children taken from them. Then there are the kids who have been taken away from their drug addict parents and who are being brought up by grandparents, foster parents or adoptive parents, but are still having difficulties due to the experiences they had before they got there. It's enough to prove to me that drugs are not to be taken lightly.
In addition, if it's illegal to drive a car under the influence of drugs because they impair your ability to drive, how does anyone work out that they should improve their ability to play music?
You don't have to rip of the third world if you smoke skunk as it has been genetically engineered to produce a high yield of THC (delta 9 tetra-hydrocannabinol - the potent one) but unfortunately that's the one that also leads to SCZ. So double whammy for stoners - bad Kharma if you get Afghani or Leb, bad brain if you get skunk. I'm just wondering if anyone managed to read the interview with Robin Murray, for which I put a URL. I didn't hear any feedback. No worries if not.
Phew! I've just read through it and it's interesting stuff. It seems to say that 25% of us have the potential mix of genes for schizophrenia and if these are aggravated by environment or cannabis then we could deveop schizophrenia. Is that right?
I didn't come down on either side of the fence on this one because I don't live my life in someone else's shoes.
I don't smoke anything, inject anything, or snort anything. I do enjoy two or three drinks during a session, but sometimes I have only one pint, or none at all.
I regularly talk with my teenage sons about the dangers of alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, but I hope I do it in a rational, informed, and not self-righteous way. (E.g., pot isn't a healthy thing to ingest, but t's far easier to reach an acutely toxic level of alcohol. Why is one legal and the other isn't? Discuss.) The choices they make are their own, and they are highly educated about the natural consequences of those choices.
Steve, do you have a problem with me joining a thread here?
> "In addition, if it's illegal to drive a car under the influence of drugs because they impair your ability to drive, how does anyone work out that they should improve their ability to play music?"
The requirements for driving a car a very different than those required to play music. You need to have quick reflexes, good judgement, and good concentration (legally, at least).
While those might be good things to have for playing music, they're not nearly as critical.
People might use certain substances to be able to relax (a very important part of being able to play music), or to gain confidence, etc.
I don't condone using "illicit drugs" for any purpose.
But for me, personally, I feel like I play better after a few pints (and worse again after a few more). And more importantly, I enjoy a session more when I've had a few pints.
Thank God that the Guinness brewery doesn't utilize an underground distribution network that destroys people's lives (does it?)
And Will, I think Steve probably just had a problem with you throwing a direct quote of his back in his face... (quite masterfully, I might add) Oh... and that shifty grin of yours that keeps fading in and out
The defenders of the illicit drug culture habitually (heheh) resort to the fallacious logic of comparing their substance(s) of choice with alcohol and tobacco. The latter are statistically more harmful so what are you party poopers on about, they say? Well, such folk are seeking refuge in this false argument to justify their personal tipple, more often than not. If a substance is bad, it's bad. Argue for it or against it on its own merits. Stop using the fags and booze to prop up your shaky standpoint. If it's bad, it's bad, and it can't be justified by comparing it with something even badder. What's so hard about that?
Abuse suggests extremes, not the pint or two or a brownie's worth of home grown... But on the abuse side, so my passion might make some sense, and showing how young it can start ~ one colleague in the circles I used to frequent, working with the 'disadvantaged', worked an area of Manchester where the babysitter of choice was whatever sedating drug was on hand, including heroine. The recieving end of the shot or dose was a baby, anything from in the cradle to waddling to first words... They would dope their kids up with the chemical baby sitter and then go out on the town for the night.
I also came across this in Dublin too, and remember walking up to a so-called child center where a load of the children had their heads in bags full of glue, the tubes lying about them on the sidewalk, they completely unable to do more than shake or wobble from a sitting or lying position. They smiled at me but their eyes were lifeless, unfocused...
Steve, if you're insinuating that I'm on a witch hunt for you, and that I'm not being straightforward and honest, then you're so far off the mark it's silly.
I find both of Will's posts in this thread to be even tempered and honest. On the other hand, I find your posts to be inflammatory, judgmental, or ultra-defensive.
From your first post, you are condemning people who might have a different viewpoint than yours, you automatically group them into a lump category, refer to them in derogatory ways, and repeatedly insult them. Taking an "us vs. them" approach to the discussion.
Never mind that the people that you refer to as "defenders of the drug culture" have often said things like "I don't condone it", or have explained in detail where their viewpoint comes from (several times without invoking the "lesser of evils" defense that seems to have you all worked up).
> "If it's bad, it's bad, and it can't be justified by comparing it with something even badder. What's so hard about that?"
I wish I lived in a world where everything was that black and white. It might make life easier. But maybe you should relax a bit and try to understand that people may have different opinions than you on some subjects, and that doesn't automatically make them @rseholes. Maybe you could do more good by having an intelligent conversation with them, helping inform them of why they might be misguided, instead of being inflammatory and conflicting.
And before you condemn me as one of "them", I have had two friends die from heroin overdoses, and have lost loved ones to cigarettes and alcohol. I am aware of the risks, the addiction problems, and the crime associated with a lot of illicit substances.
We have no chance of having a debate about drugs whilst people like you, rev, continually hitch the argument to the "so what - booze and fags are so much worse" school, as in your last paragraph. I'm very sorry about your friends but your argument is fallacious. It is an exceptionally dishonest argument (which does not mean I'm calling YOU dishonest - read on) which a large number of posters have either fallen for or acquiesce in. I have actually been very patient in making this point Gawd knows how many times but the more I stick to it and remain consistent the more I get condemned by the equivocators. It is a very important topic. It is not one that calls for soft talk or diplomacy at all costs. If you can't stand the heat and all that. Well at least we've stopped being bloody flippant about it (see first post), so maybe something has been achieved, eh?
Trying to kickstart the discussion into a discussion again, I'm wondering how many of the young players Dow referred to in his initial post, are influenced by how they perceive, or are influenced by the behaviour of, rock stars or "mainstream" musicians. Pete Doherty for example.
As I'm sure some misguided 2nd generation London Irish kids of a previous generation would have thought all you need to do is drink 20 pints and you'll become a great songwriter-cum-alcoholic-intellectual romantic figure like Shane McGowan.
No where did Pete suggest that alcolhol and tobacco are worse. He's not equivocating, and neither am I. Did you miss his reference to heroin, Steve?
Some of us are actually agreeing with the gist of your view on this, yet you insist on being belligerent. That's your perogative of course, but it strikes me as counterproductive at the least.
Back on topic: Despite all the horrors of addiciton and drug-related crime and the disastrous effects on adults and children (vis a vis Ceolachan's post above) alike, it's not easy for me to condemn drug use when I enjoy a few drinks at my twice-a-week sessions. Use is use.
But reason also suggests there is a wide difference between a pint or three once or twice a week, and shooting heroin or meth every day. And a difference as well between sporadic use of drugs and outright addiction. Some people are more vulnerable to addiciton than others. Some people react to certain drugs more strongly than other people do. I've yet to meet an addict who actually wanted to be an addict. But beyond that it gets pretty fuzzy from my point of view.
Danny, I've wondered that too, but also worry about role models within the tradition. Some brilliant trad players are/were infamous for their drug use. I'm not sure genre of music makes a difference.
Curiouser and curiouser... What I am reminded is all the addicts I've known, whatever their poison, who told me they could quit whenever the wanted. They weren't addicted... One did quit recently, died of their addiction, clearly related symptoms and results... "Some people are more vulnerable" ~ I think I remember them raising that issues, and also about how some folks have the genes, like a lottery, either that will develop into things that will kill them, or that will protect them from the bad effects of their chosen poison... Yeah, I've heard that one before, and before, and before, and I'll hear it again and again I suspect...
Oh I agree, C, that's mostly my point. I don't want to point my finger at someone as a "drug user" when I take drink myself and am therefore vulnerable to becoming addicted.
I suppose abstinence is the only completely safe way to go with these things, and all power to them that abstains. But I'm not comfortable condemning occasional drinkers or users on that basis alone. None of us lives in another's shoes, so we can't know how someone else is affected.
Are we all vulnerable? Yes. But that doesn't mean everyone assumes the same degree of risk.
hee hee - good one michael.
I used to do exactly that but don't now for reasons I outlined above. I also said I've no issue with anyone doing waht they want spliff-wise, as long as they don't have a brain that's still developing. All I suggest is read Robin Murray's interview. But the stuff about 3rd world exploitation - ok, maybe I take issue at that.
It's not easy for me to condemn drug use when I enjoy a few drinks at our twice-a-week sessions. Thus saith he of the grinning feline soubriquet. Well, here's the nub of it. It is, in fact, very easy. I have a pint or (insert number to taste) at my once-weekly sessions and I do condemn drug use. I've given my boring reasons so many times I'm wilting. I do not have to be perfect to speak out about something. I can criticise the England football team formation though I can't kick a ball straight. I can call McEwan's latest novel a bloody bore though I can't string two paragraphs together. I can rail against the food industry for encouraging obesity in children whilst resorting to the occasional fish supper. I can condemn all forms of pornography though I pick up the Daily bloody Sport or whatever it's called when I'm waiting to get my hair cut. I can be a rabid atheist (which I am) and listen in awe to Bach's B minor mass (which I do) or go and visit great cathedrals (which I also do). I can rant about the erosion of ITM then go and play Harvest friggin' Home all night. Jeez, I can even do that and get me bodhran out. We are HUMAN BEINGS, oh grinning one, and we can speak out without fear or favour if something is getting on our tits, imperfect though we be. To suggest that you can't speak out with conviction about the misuse of damaging and illegal substances "because you like a pint or three yourself at the session" is pusillanimous, sanctimonious claptrap. Good grief, the human race wouldn't have got very far with that attitude. Maybe it hasn't! Now please excuse me. That's my tour de force done for tonight. I wish to go and find something musical to post about. I may be gone from this benighted thread for some time. Grrr.
I'm Greenwiggle.
You may remember from such threads as "Call to arms of the glee club" and "Where's the joy".
In answer to your name calling, i have always been known on this site under this name. Call me what you like.
I also remember you swearing you were never going to post here again, and taking your harmonicas off to other sites. Well, every person is entitled to change their minds. When I saw you were back online I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and see if you had modified your online behaviour. (Magnanimous...no?)
Reading occasionally over the last month, I see numerous occassions of bullying and schoolyard standover tactics towards anyone who disagrees with your point of view - but whenever anyone mentions it, it seems to be - "Can't anyone take a joke?" or"Isn't this a public forum?"
So we understand each other Steve, just because you post here and so do I, doesn't mean I like you or your bullish behaviour. Maybe a course in online anger management might assist you.
Here's a glimpse from the archives.
"Jack, in contrast to Kysh's orginal question, a month or two back a harmonica player accused the lot of us of ruining the discussions here by being too joyful, always joking and kidding around, never taking the stuff seriously. He called us the 'Glee Club,' which we promptly appropriated for ourselves. I think I'm a charter member (so is Zina). But you've already been inducted, whether you knew it--or wnated to be--or not.
P.S. Let the mason's have their pyramids...the Glee Club has it's "
Steve, you just automatically lash out at anyone who you perceive to be disagreeing with you. It's almost comical.
I'd like you to point out where I "hitched the argument to the 'so what - booze and fags are so much worse'"
I did no such thing at any point. What I DID do was point out that you seem to be so hung up on battling that argument, that you're coming off as combative and argumentative, instead of paying attention to what people are actually saying (without bringing up that particular argument.)
Drugs cause problems in a lot of people's lives. There's no doubt about that. What I was attempting to do was point out that the world is not as black and white as you seem to believe. And I was actually trying to HELP you in my last post by pointing out that you could "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" -- by having an intelligent discussion without trying to belittle people that aren't necessarily in agreement with you.
But you're so hell-bent on being defensive that you can't see that I'm actually more or less on your side!
LOL
Anyway, back to the original topic at hand, I also find it "funny" (as in "gosh, who woulda figured?") that younger trad musicians would be mixing hard drugs with playing the music. I have seen the other side, where people mix drugs with electronic, industrial, and goth music. That's about as far away as you can get, musically speaking.
But a lot of the "trad" bands back in the the 70's were caught up in the "rock n roll" drug culture. This is not something new, I guess.
I read half way through this - the same old stuff that I've seen in pro/contra drugs arguments.
The way I see it, most people like to lose it a bit. Some go for drugs, others for alcohol, some for both. It's all the same as far as I'm concerned. If drugs weren't available people would drink more alcohol; if alcohol wasn't available, people would resort to drugs.
The fact is, people will always want/need stimulants. Alcohol is a drug; the fact that it's been in use for thousands of years doesn't make it any less a drug. So if you condemn drug use and at the same time you are an alcohol user, you are a hypocrite. It's that simple. The problem is not the drug, the problem is you. If you choose to abuse a drug then accept the consequences, along with everyone else who has to put up with you.
Erm, Steve, I never suggested that you or anyone else couldn't condemn drugs if you drink alcohol. I did say that such a stance doesn't come easy for *me.* And all I mean by that is that I can't simply wave off my alcohol use as harmless and turn around to bad mouth someone who uses it or any other drug.
In short, it's less about condemning or not condemning someone else's behavior and more about examining my own. Then again, I'm not the evangelist that you are.
As for how far the human race has progressed, I doubt it's my "pusilanimous sanctimonious claptrap" that's landed us in the tribal-religious-carbon burning-overfished-murderous state that passes for progress and prosperity.
Steve, the apparent chip on your shoulder unfortunately outweighs the substance of anything you have to say.
F*ck! Dow - you and I are screwed. Ptarmi wouldnt tolerate anyone drunk at his session! Oh well, probably good that we arent anywhere near his session then:(
There is use. And there is abuse:
"Metaphor or allegory, now that I can read it again without the benefit of three bottles of Thatcher's Katy swirling around me bloodstream I can see it was a bloody waste of ink and paper anyway." Steve Shaw.
The Department of Health advises that men should not regularly drink more than 3 - 4 units of alcohol per day, and women should not regularly drink more than 2 - 3 units of alcohol per day.
1 x 500ml bottle of Katy varietal cider constitutes 4.2 Units
Now, I abuse myself in this manner frequently. But I don't condemn others for their choice of narcotic.
Doubled risk of schizophrenia from cannibis use...I didn't follow up, but what were the odds before all the smoke I wonder? I have other real risks to worry about.
What if you always avoided drugs because of this and you became schizophrenic anyway? Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants.
What if you always avoided drugs and then became a criminal anyway and broke into houses and killed people and stuff. How would the law courts explain your behaviour?
I take a pint myself on a good day out i would probally spill more than most of ye would drink. I hate drugs and i'd love to pack in the drink someday because i really admire people who can go out play a few tunes have a good laugh without drink/drugs. Drink is totally over abused in Ireland and so many families suffer because of it and for anyone to express the satisfaction they get from drugs on a site that kids have access to needs to grow up.At the end of the day DRINK AND DRUGS WRECKS LIVES..............
Saint, that has such a note of absoluteness (again with the black and white thing). I think the point that a number of people on this thread have been trying to get across is that "DRINK AND DRUGS *SOMETIMES* WRECK LIVES".
If you ask the kids that are mixing drugs with trad, you would likely find that they KNOW that the drugs might wreck their lives. Will it wreck all of their lives? Not likely. The majority of them will grow up like the rest of us at some point, and get it together.
If you ask them whether they CARE that it might wreck their lives - they are also likely to respond with "I don't care". I don't know about you, but I remember being young... It's amazing that any of us live to see our 30s
Hey everyone, I've decided to give up chocolate. I had 2 pieces yesterday because it's Easter, but now I'm feeling really guilty. I've read that chocolate contains sugar and fat. If I eat too much of it, the sugar will rot my teeth away and the fat will cause me to put on more and more weight until I become obese. In fact, I will be so obese that it will lead to other health issues like heart problems and diabetes, and my subsequent inability to lose weight will cause psychological breakdown and I will end up being a hermit, and all my relationships with my family and friends will be ruined. So I don't want to hear anyone condone the eating of chocolate on this website, even though I had 2 bits myself last night. You're all sick, the lot of you, SICK I tell you!
BTW, I do agree with Will, it's important to talk to younger people about the issues associated with alcohol and drugs. But in the end, they're going to make their own decisions.
I'm not saying that "kids will be kids" and that we should just let them do whatever they want.
But I would venture to say that a lot of my behavior as a teenager was a direct result of REBELLION against the hard line taken by my parents about this kind of stuff. I would have welcomed an informed, and rational conversation about it, as opposed to the black and white approach that my parents took (and several people seem to be condoning on this thread).
Dow your probally in a middle class bubble , i dont know but i ve seen a lot of sh*t and i have always been anti drugs at any level so thats my opinion and i feel very strong about it .Your entitled to your opinion to no matter how stupid it is.
My hardline approach is nt towards kids .Its towards the adults who say its not that bad ,the adults who supply the drugs at sessions and the adults who turn a blind eye. If your not part of the solution your part of the problem and it is a problem.
Dow your probally in a middle class bubble , i dont know but i ve seen a lot of sh*t and i have always been anti drugs at any level so thats my opinion and i feel very strong about it .Your entitled to your opinion to no matter how stupid it is.
X
5/10 See me.
Dow, you're probably in a middle class bubble. I don't know but I've seen a lot of sh*t, and I have always been anti-drugs at any level, so that's my opinion and I feel very strongly about it. You're entitled to your opinion too, no matter how stupid it is.
√
"My hardline approach is nt towards kids .Its towards the adults who say its not that bad ,the adults who supply the drugs at sessions and the adults who turn a blind eye. If your not part of the solution your part of the problem and it is a problem."
You're right, saint, I should stop giving people free heroin at my local session just to get people addicted so they have to come back to me to get more. I must be the "anti-saint".
Sorry to correct your English, Saint, but what else could I do? I had to do something to stop myself from reacting to your calling me stupid and implying that I'm a middle class brat with no life experience. So I kept myself occupied by doing something constructive and teaching you how to use apostophes and capital letters. It's really not all that difficult, just like treating people you don't know with a bit of respect and engaging in adult conversation and debate as opposed to calling them names and needlessly making assumptions about their class and background.
Geez Dow, I can't get a word in edgewise, you type too fast. Or are you just trying to pump up the posting stats on your thread?
> "If your not part of the solution your part of the problem and it is a problem." (sic)
That is such a load of cr@p that gets spouted off by people all the time. It is certainly possible to be neutral in a situation like that. Or should we all be proactive and print up posters espousing the dangers of playing music while in an altered state, and make sure we post them prominently around every session?
Maybe drugs at sessions are a bigger problem that I realize. But I've never seen it around where I live. It doesn't seem like it is running rampant, or ruining the lives of the entire younger generation of players. In fact, I was even surprised at how little DRINKING there was at sessions in Ireland recently, due to the crackdown on drunk driving.
Good luck sleeping off your drug binge, saint, and I wish you all the best in your English studies. I bet it was working class druggies like you who let the tyres down on my limo last night.
"In fact, I was even surprised at how little DRINKING there was at sessions in Ireland recently, due to the crackdown on drunk driving."
That's cause they were all off their tats on the harder stuff...
Actually, all I did was go to discussions/search and type in a relevant keyword. The quote at the end is not from me - but someone else on this site. I'm pretty sure the Jeremy has deleted all of the offensive threads. I wouldn't bother my hard-drive saving discussions from years ago and cutting and pasting them before they get wiped.
Although it does ask the question...How many threads have been deleted?, as opposed to who can create the longest/funniest/hijack etc.
Cheers!
Oh, sorry, very un-pc of me considering this topic.
Reverend brings up a good point. I've never seen a session with stoned musicians either (alcohol is *not* part of my scenario). Between all of us on this thread, we cover a LOT of sessions all over the world. How many have been to sessions with young musicians high on coke or speed? What did you think? How did you react?
You don't want to believe it's true, do you? Don't worry. You can sleep at night comforted by the knowledge that the evil hasn't visited your doorstep yet. One day though, you're going to realise that you should have heeded the warnings. There'll be a youth at your session high on drugs, and you'll know it because they'll have that drawn, gaunt, pallid look about them, and the pupils of their eyes will be black as the pits of hell, and they'll be screaming blue murder and waving a gun in your face and telling you to give them your mobile phone and some spare change.
Dow, I'm not some lovey dovey American pollyanna who thinks everyone is out for tea and scones. I can tell the difference between someone who's had a few pints, someone who's stoned on pot, and someone who's on the harder stuff. You'll just have to take my word for it. I haven't seen any of the latter kind of stoned person at a session, at least not one who was playing an instrument. And Reverend says he hasn't either, which is why I was picking up on his point.
I've seen people stoned on weed in sessions, but never played with speed- and cokeheads. I heard from a good source about musicians who do do this regularly though, and I was shocked at the pure evil of it all. That's why I started the thread - to see who would agree with me that this evil needs to be stamped out now before it's too late and druggies take over our sessions.
Oh c'mon Dow.
You really are "bubble-boy" aren't you!
I have to say that I have witnessed all sorts of carry-on in the long time I have been attending sessions, concerts and festivals. It's not something I would want to brag about.
If someone wants to "get high somewhere on something" I'm not going to tell them how best to achieve that, or how to avoid the pitfalls, as I know from experience they will take little note.
I would hope that young people can make up their own minds as to what they do to their minds, but you can only learn from your mistakes...or by watching/listening to other people's.
I get the apparent incongruity between wholesome tunes and mind altered experience, but each to their own...as long as they pose no danger to anone else. Have fun tunes tonight.
Don't let the dread drugs bite.
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Is all my brain and body need
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Are very good indeed
Keep your silly ways or throw them out the window
The wisdom of your ways, I've been there and I know
Lots of other ways, what a jolly bad show
If all you ever do is business you don't like
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Is very good indeed
Every bit of clothing ought to make you pretty
You can cut the clothing, grey is such a pity
I should wear the clothing of Mr. Walter Mitty
See m
Traditional Irish Drugs
Traditional Irish Drugs
I've had a couple of conversations with people recently who said that some of the younger Irish musicians play when they're high on speed and coke. For some reason I find this absolutely hilarious. What do other people think?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Och you see that all the time, in the city sessions Dow, young musicians playing far too fast [i.e. high on speed!] & hyper on Coke [...... a Cola!]
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
More like tatrazine and coca cola at comaltas. Me thinks or is it the date
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Drat you beat me to it Ptamigan
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I think it's definitely not hilarious.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
you can barely get in the toilet at Celtic Connections for all the coke snorters.
or so I'm told
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Whats the date ? Kennedy
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Ah. Gotcha. Or got me, rather.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
What's the answer? Maybe they need to like study the Bible more at school or something.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Something tells me it's safer not to be posting at all today!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
It's April 2nd over here in Oz, and I'm deadly serious. I just find it sort of amusing because I associate party drugs/stimulants with electronic dance music. Not... erm... the Sally Gardens.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Well, then. Not amusing. Just shows that the trad music scene is prone to all the other screwed-up problems of the rest of society.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Yeah. Come to think of it I've never heard of a trad musician who's an alcoholic before ',: -/
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I can't imagine that anybody would have the focus to play sets of tunes if they'd just done a line of something tastey or taken an 'e' or somesuch. I reckon it would be instruments down and lots of vacant conversations taking place of the tunes. I've been a listener, not a player, at sessions in that state but it didn't feel right and I reckon playing would have been a tall order. On a slightly calmer note I've been at sessions where many players are stoned on weed or hash. I don't think it enhances the session, except between the frontal lobes of those stoned. A few pints seems to be the optimum stimulant for tunes. In general I would argue that drugs and ITM do not mix.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Oh, and good job trad musicians don't smoke, eh.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Kennedy, why need it be 'not amusing'. And what's 'screwed up' about it?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Sergeant Fox how dare you suggest that it is anything other than evil and wrong. You should be stoned to death.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I used to play with a band who were into the wacky backy . I dont smoke and they would be saying things like Wow we are playing great and I was thinking no we are playing crap.
I resolved just stick to alcohol like everyone else .
The idea of being able to play while on stronger stuff doesn't add up. Sure someone is not pulling your leg Dow?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
What's screwed up about coke and speed? Oh, don't get me started.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I'm working on just that, Dow.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Da Irish yoof are just like da yoof anywhere else - they will get wasted. Since the range of intoxicants available to them is no different to that available in England, Germany, the US or Oz, they will do it in the same way. The only difference is, in Ireland they also have the music - so they play music and get wasted at the same time.
A great many of the 'hippy' generation of Irish musicians supplemented their intake of those most tradtional of Irish drugs - porter, whiskey, poitín and tay - with the ubiquitous whacco tobacco and Ireland's own native hallucinogen, the one-legged gnomes of the hillside - and, no doubt, other, more powerful substances, when available. So, is it any surprise that today's young trad posse are keeping up with their contemporaries in their modes of self-abuse?
However, perhaps I'm an old fart before my time, but I can't help feeling that white powdery substances are more damaging to traditional music than green leafy ones.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I'll say one more thing on this subject---if I went to a session and I saw that the musicians there were getting high in the bathrooms or wherever, I would leave and never go back. It wouldn't matter how talented they were.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
As long as it is real coke and not killer coca-cola, which should be boycotted by all.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"I can't imagine that anybody would have the focus to play sets of tunes if they'd just done a line of something tastey or taken an 'e' or somesuch"
Sarge - Many of these youngsters will have spent their childhoods competing in fleadhs, so by the time they reach 17 or 18, the tunes are so hardwired into them, nothing can faze them.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I can see how it would give them more energy in their playing and make them play faster and stuff, but isn't that a bit unfair from the point of view of recordings and competitions? Maybe Comhaltas should bring in some doping rules and carry out regular drugs tests.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"I'll say one more thing on this subject---if I went to a session and I saw that the musicians there were getting high in the bathrooms or wherever, I would leave and never go back. It wouldn't matter how talented they were."
I got a parking ticket the other day. Would you play tunes with me?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I take my hat off to them Spoon (your first name's not 'Coke' is it?)
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Shouldn't it be "Irish Traditional Drugs" (ITD for short)?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
At our Vancouver sessions, a number of people smoke pot before (and drink tea during) the session. Pot seems to provide a useful mental focus for some (regarding music) and these are pretty good players who do it. Most of them avoid booze, which they say makes them clumsy.
So there's your choices...you can drink a few pints, and fumble yoru way through the tune, or you can smoke pot, and forget what it is you're playing
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by chris stolz
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
In the UK drugs (class a-c) would be illegal in a pub. If this was known to the landlord and he did nothing about it then he would run the real risk of losing his licence, having his pub closed down, and facing prosecution. In Bristol a pub not far from where I live (not and never has been a session pub, I hasten to add) was not only closed down but demolished recently and the landlord sent down, for those reasons, which in that case involved also drug dealing and firearms offences - two things which are now closely associated with significant drug use in public places.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Chris- I've experienced this too. I was at a Black 47 show; which yes, i know, isn't quite trad, and i met this kid there who was totally trashed, and refused to play because he never plays when he's drunk, only when he's high. it kinda amused me, i prefer to be in a totally uninhibited state of mind
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
At the session I go to there's tobacco, alcohol and caffeine!!! How very dare they! It's a den of iniquity I tell you! Shameful behaviour! And then there's the orange juice brigade and that's got vitamins in it! It's an outrage! Some of the women even wear high heels!! Don't get me started!!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bowburner
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
This discussion puts a totally different perspective on the "High" reel! Much as I'd be against all drugs at sessions (except of course for the black stuff) i still think vallium might be an option for the speedster brigade - what do you think Wayne?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Dow, leave Kennedy alone - if one of your relatives had been shot by a man on a grassy Knoll, you might have something against grass yerself ...
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Ottery
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"I take my hat off to them Spoon (your first name's not 'Coke' is it?)"
No. It's Spoon.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Dow, you mean they do not have drug tests? I could have won the last 30 All Ireland fleadhs.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I'm with Bazouki_dave. If anything on the planet makes me go all po-faced and bereft of humour it's cool drugs talk. If you condone illicit drugs in any shape or form, including deriving humour from talk of them, you're an @rsehole. Full stop.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"If you condone illicit drugs in any shape or form, including deriving humour from talk of them, you're an @rsehole. Full stop."
Because they're illicit? Or because they're harmful?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
because you're having a laugh I suspect
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Right, spoon. Defend the drug culture of our beloved nation. The gun crime, the burglaries, the street robberies, the prostitution, the misery of addiction. Come on, mate, give us a laff. Or is it all OK in Wales?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"Me Good Lad's, try good ole "GUINESS" and you'll be a doing just fine!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by edpalmer
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I'm with Steve and Bazouki.
Drugs are not funny (although some of these situations have, admittedly, been amusing) in ANY situation. Yes, it's more interesting that they're being used at sessions than at raves, but that's doesn't make it any much of a better idea.
Somewhere along the line of having people you love killed by drunk/stoned drivers, having your mother come home crying from playing the funeral of a 26-year old crack addict, and having friends grow up as self-respecting people and suddenly start calling you in the middle of the night with all their equally drugged up friends, it stops being funny. In any setting.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by possumawesome
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
sorry, not bazouki, I meant Kennedy
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by possumawesome
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
How traditional is theobromine? Caffeine-like alkaloid in chocolate, legal, doesn't make you (more) stupid or drowsy, tasty to ingest. Of course you have eat mountains to have a decent effect. Yet, you could do worse.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by drone
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
How available would chocolate have been in "traditional" times? Very hard to come by, and out-of-this-world expensive, too, I imagine.
Anyway, to get the best effect from chocolate eat the dark stuff; the ordinary bars contain far too much milk.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Thought the govt put bromine in your tea ?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
That was "bromide", and it was supposedly put into the soldiers' tea by the MoD a couple of generations ago to "calm them down", as it were
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I already AM CALM!!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by drone
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
want a cup of tea ?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Although actually - this is a pretty big thing in some parts with regards to trad music - and at least Dow had the balls to bring it up. So good on you Dow - but why dont you just start a lovey huggy thread just to make sure that the lads who are uncomfortable about the truth dont get too sad.
Its a sh*te and scary thing that is happening.....it scares me that my son will prob end up playing the music because the amount of sh*te that I have seen at trad parties in some parts of the world is actually quiet shocking. But why dont we just pretend it isnt happening.....
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"Right, spoon. Defend the drug culture of our beloved nation."
I'm not defending anything. Just asking.
I don't condone self-destruction. But people do it. The extent to which people actually set out to destroy themselves varies considerably - that goes for users of all 'recreational' drugs, legal and prohibited. It is a sad fact that, very often, it is the most creative of people who succumb to self-destructive ways, whether through alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis or heroin.
Yes, certain drugs are inherently more dangerous than others - but it hardly needs saying that the boundaries are not 'black-and-white', and the legal classification of a drug is not *necessarily* consistent with the actual likelihood and extent of harm it can do.
Back to the initial topic of this discussion, over 6 summers I have spent in the West of Ireland, I have met countless musicians, aged 16 to 60 and beyond, some of them well-known and well-respected, who enjoy substances other than alcohol for their recreation - and I've heard them play great music. This is not to say the music might not have been *even greater*, had they not indulged. But how many musicians do we know who 'can't play' until they've had a pint or two.... or twelve? I'll bet there are almost as many in Ireland today who wouldn't even think of starting a tune without a couple of quick drags on a joint first.
I'm not condoning it, but it's the way it is.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Me - I like a cup of coffee.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Steve Shaw, Whats wrong with prostitution.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by mick_the_tool
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Predictably we get that tired old sh!te equating illegal drugs with "far more harmful" baccy and booze. So this pretty bad stuff is OK because the legal stuff isn't too good either. Well, I mean, what kind of argument is that. Do me a favour, chaps, will you! Mr spoon, your post reads very much like "justification on artistic grounds" to me, the Brendan Behan/Dylan Thomas syndrome sort of style, another hackneyed ol' bunch of bollox.
Now Mick, I don't know whether you're being serious. If you post "what's wrong with prostitution, and I'm being serious" you'll get an answer all right and it will have bugger all to do with church morals I assure you!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Spoon, I didn't even have cannabis in mind when I started this thread. I was talking more about full-on stimulants. Like you said, cannabis is hardly a new thing to mix with trad.
I was hoping for some evangelical "shocked in Ross-On-Wye" responses Keep 'em coming, they're hilarious.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
So who's putting the crack in craic?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by drone
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Steve Shaw lighten up. live and let live.Go smoke a J and play a few tunes.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by mick_the_tool
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Dow - did the date of your post have anything to do with the content?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Live and let die, eh, mick? Gawd!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
i'm late to this topic and it is indeed fascinating......
"absolutely hilarious"----well, yeah, at least in the sense that my frequent line about the current rage for hopped-up hyper-speed & over-the-top staccato ornamentation sounding like "chipmunks on crack" has some truth to it!
but on a serious note......as someone who has had some life experience and exposure in this area, my thought from touching my finger to my tongue and holding it up to test the wind in ennis as well as in a corner of quilty was that drugs and their consumers were definitely around. while i was there in ennis on one sojourn the local paper ran a big front-page story that clare, as in, the whole county, was awash in illegal drugs, but, annoyingly, did not break down which drugs they were talking about. i got a very strong "meth" and "coke" feeling in some pockets i passed through and around some clumps of folks. and it was an ugly, icky feeling, though not one i find unusual. i come from a lower-class white suburb of a huge city, and when i was a teenger and college student, many younger folks i knew were doing all the crank, coke and angel dust they could get their hands on....i was around quite a bit of that in northern california later on.....and my antennae did go up here and there in clare. one day a young male of 20ish careened into the hostel in ennis while i was staying there. he was not a guest there. he was trying to force his way in, and he scared the people who were working there....he was wearing the Eminem outfit that seems to be favored by young males around the world these days. and he was pie-eyed on something, absolutely pie-eyed, in a scary way. it was not weed. it was not coke or meth. i actually got him to leave.....i don't think it was X or an organic hallucinogen; i knew a lot of ravers & deadheads in northern cal.......it was something like "ice" or one of those scary chemical drugs. look, clare is like everywhere else these days---and in rural america meth and such are big, big, big business.
as for the musical part----people who think they are gonna be able to play high are idiots. being an idiot is part of being a kid. let's hope it's just a stage for most of them. harder drugs than the leaf have been around itm since the 60s/70s....it just hasn't been on the front page of the paper......
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
You have to take my word for it here that I'm talking about people who actually *can* play.
Ice is a scary drug. Big problem here in Sydney at the moment. It makes people kind of aggressive. Imagine Steve Shaw with none of the niceties.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"I didn't even have cannabis in mind when I started this thread."
No, Dow. I just like to do things gently. I leave it to the likes of you to shock sensitive souls.
"your post reads very much like "justification on artistic grounds""
If that's how you choose to read it, Steve. Perhaps you, like ceemonster, have been led by your own personal experiences to have the views that you express here. But, unlike ceemonster, you haven't given us the background.
As for humour, it's just people's way of coping with their anxieties.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Humour should be at least a class A. It's a huge social problem that not many people seem to be able to deal with.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
dow, yes, sorry, i did figure you meant people who "can" play....i guess how i should have put it was, people who think they will play as well high, or who think it won't hurt if not destroy their music to make a habit of playing high.....are idiots.....
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Welcome back Steve. How long did you stay away from thesession again? The last time I remember this type of bullying and ranting was from you in 2004. And back then you said you were leaving because of the glee club.
Nice to know that time hasn't wearied you of your disgruntled persona, but ease off on the throttle will you?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Greenwiggle
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"I was hoping for some evangelical "shocked in Ross-On-Wye" responses"
We're not easily shocked in Ross-on-Wye.
But being at the centre of the universe means we don't need drugs. (Smug grin)
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Sorry Ben, Ross-On-Wye was the first place that came into my head
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
As indeed it should be.
But I know what you mean ... Apology accepted and appreciated.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Steve, I don't want to start world war three, but it's a bit rich hearing complaints about peoples choices of drug from someone who confesses to have used '3 bottles of Katy' (7.3 % Cider) before posing on this board ....
Alcohol worse than ecstasy on shock new drug list
James Randerson, science correspondent
Friday March 23, 2007
The Guardian
Some of Britain's leading drug experts demand today that the government's classification regime be scrapped and replaced by one that more honestly reflects the harm caused by alcohol and tobacco. They say the current ABC system is "arbitrary" and not based on evidence.
The scientists, including members of the government's top advisory committee on drug classification, have produced a rigorous assessment of the social and individual harm caused by 20 substances, and believe this should form the basis of any future ranking.
By their analysis, alcohol and tobacco are rated as more dangerous than cannabis, LSD and ecstasy.
They say that if the current ABC system is retained, alcohol would be rated a class A drug and tobacco class B.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Ottery
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Ooops - I meant, 'Posting on this board'
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Ottery
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Though 'Posing' might be apposite.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Ottery
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
As a former puffer and drinker, how dare I issue advice or warnings to anyone. But I will.
It has become increasingly evident recently that there is a marked risk of developing schizophrenia and drug abuse, in particular cannabis, and even more in particular young users with a two to three fold increase in risk among users.
Here's an an interview with Robin Murray from our Institute of Psychiatry. It's quite lengthy and the stuff about drug use and increased risk of SCZ is further down:
http://www.schizophreniaforum.org/for/int//Murray/murray.asp
Here's one of the articles quoted:
http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/31/3/608
And just in case you thought SCZ is probably a fun disease let me dispell that delusion by referring you to:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/print/ency/article/000928.htm
I take this very seriously. My girl Roisin (15) hangs around with a bunch of kids. Near enough all the boys among them puff away. These kids are from middle class urban backgrounds. It will be tragic to see if any of them go a bit weird in a few years time. (BTW, Roisin just got a Merit in grade 4 piano - no bad eh?)
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Roisin's doing amazingly well considering what her father's like. Fair play to her for achieving so much in her life despite all the odds. Go Roisin!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Yes Danny, in my mind, the big 3 drugs that really need warnings on the pack are Alcohol, Tobacco and Cannabis. They seem to be the ones that people have most problems getting off, and which seem to lead to long-term chronic problems. I'd rather spend time in the company of a dope smoker than someone wired up on coke or speed, but having seen the debilitating effects of long-term use at close hand, I think that people should be made aware of the dangers. Having survived to the age of fifty, and having lived most my life surrounded by (and indulging in) quite heavy drinking and the regular smoking of both legal and illegal substances, it's very interesting to look around now and note the current status of my friends:
Only one smokes (anything)
Only a handfull of us drink very much. Of those that do, a few have a 'serious problem' with it.
But having said that, life is there to be lived, we've done it all and come out the other side, hopefully wiser. And I've personally had a lot of fun along the way. Maybe we have to risk damaging ourselves to get the most out of the game(?)
And with regard to alcohol, just to tease Steve:
The Department of Health advises that men should not regularly drink more than 3 - 4 units of alcohol per day, and women should not regularly drink more than 2 - 3 units of alcohol per day. After an episode of heavy drinking it is advisable to refrain from drinking for 48 hours to allow your body to recover. This is a short term measure. People whose pattern of drinking places them at significant risk should seek professional advice.
1 x 500ml bottle of Katy varietal cider constitutes 4.2 Units
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Ottery
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Well - over here the cigarette packets do have very graphic warnings all over them.....ones with little premmie sick babies and people with mouth cancer...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Well, the day is passed, so who's the biggest fool at last ?
Interesting that the tone of the discussion changed so rapidly.
For my ha'pporth........I've been around since the '60s', certainly remember times when good musicians thought they were hilarious( in front of a paying audience ) and couldn't tune or get more than four numbers into a half-hour set owing to the joint they had in the interval. Also remember the three times I've been in fear of my life on the Tube, owing to a drunken Celt ( they were respectively Scots, Irish, and Geordie ), and also remember the family my church-going mother was trying to do some social work for, the alcoholic husband and the tubercullar wife, and the damage alcohol did to that family.
I agree absolutely with the article in the Guardian, and look forward to the banning of tobacco shortly in public places; I also think that it is hypocrisy that maintains the current legislation on drugs, and lumping all unfavoured things together does no good to any sort of regulation - look what Prohibition in the US did for the rise of organised crime, and peoples' attitude to the law.
I feel that moderation is something that needs to be learnt - I would no more want to get out of my head on cannabis, cocaine, or alcohol, and certainly not while trying to play; on the other hand some people are so unhappy that sooner or later they will find something to ruin their lives with.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Two people I know well at the local session have had serious drug problems. In both cases it was booze (usually beer, with maybe the odd whiskey thrown in) and dope. Never seen anyone do anything harder. But the alcohol & grass do enough damage on their own. Luckily both people had the support of the musical community in getting over their problems.
It's not a laughing matter.
Doesn't mean you can't smile occasionally, Steve.
Eno
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
So it IS OK to condone the others "because booze and fags are worse?" Fallacious, fallacious. And who the hell are you, grannywiggly or whatever your latest soubriquet is? I really can't be arsed to research who you used to be when all you can do is spit like that. Have a nice day yourself!
As for smiling oh, I can smile, but not at a thread that contains loads of posts that condone the use of illicit substances. And therefore robbery, violent crime, premature death, mental illness, destitution and prostitution slavery. I'll take a happy pill later, or maybe two or three bottles of Chilean cabernet will do the trick. Wake up.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Greenwiggle has been on this site for ages....with the name greenwiggle.
Steve - I havent noticed anyone here condoning the use of illicit drugs, just some lads who think tobacco and drink are bad as well.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
At the risk of being branded an '@rsehole. Full stop.'
No one has asked you to to 'condone' their behaviour.
robbery = A small number of persistant offenders supporting Crack, heroin and other expensive drug habits
violent crime = Mostly fuelled by alcohol
premature death = Statistically, mostly Alcohol again
mental illness = Alcohol and Cannabis,
destitution = Capitalism, Alcohol, Crack, Heroin
prostitution slavery = Men
Some of these things are 'illicit', some aren't, I can't see the relevance of the term myself.
hmmmmm!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Ottery
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Interesting to note a number of abstainers among the older/experienced players on this site. Might this suggest that the music is the ultimate drug that keeps us going when all else fails?
Of course, if the music were supplied only on prescription, and then only to old farts, that would solve the 'speed kills' issue overnight
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by P-K
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I've often found that the people who go overboard with their anti-drug rants are the ones who are still resentful of the fact that they never got invited to parties in the 60s and 70s.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
How did you find that Dow? Have you got a time machine that'll take you back to those parties?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
See! One just spoke!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Ha ha!
My question remains.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Its true that not all drugs are good.
Some are fantastic!!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by JimR
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"Ha ha??" Oi, wrong thread! Alliteration!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I haven't read an "anti-drug rant" on this thread. What I rail against is the implicit condoning of the use of illicit drugs, most of which (apart from the ones you grow in yer garden) are surrounded by a vile sub-culture of addiction, family breakdown, ruthless criminality and misery. Yep, booze can do all that, so that makes 'em all right then. Contorted logic or what. You condone it by making light. JimR's post is a classic example. This is a public forum, n'est-ce pas?
I don't remember anyone called groanwaggle from the old days. Maybe s/he was a smirking lurker.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
What do you hope to achieve by bullying Greenwiggle? Does it make you feel better? Do you get a rush of pleasure from posting insults? Do you regret it and tell yourself you'll never do it again, only to find yourself doing the same thing the very next day? If there's anything we can do to help you get out of this downward spiral, we're here for you, Steve.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Nope - sorry Steve, Greenwiggle has been on here are really really long time and not as a lurker. But he doesnt get into stupid arguments like you and I - he is the helpful comment type so he doesnt usually waste time slagging...
I still dont notice anyone condoning the illicit drug use. Nobody here has said anything like " Heroin is really cool " In fact most people here are saying they are totally against it.
Dows original post should be read as " It is so funny, because it is really stupid to do that stuff" So not like Funny haha - more like funny just kind of sad.
I dont like any kind of drugs the plant ones included. And I do realise booze and ciggies are bad too, although I still indulge.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Oh c'mon beebs, you know me. I always have a good ol' hearty laugh at serious crime and death and the breakdown of families ',: -/
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
>Do you get a rush of pleasure from posting insults?
Surely you of all people would know the answer to that one Dow.
To me, it's up to each individual if they want to use drugs - and I have done. It's part of life here. But I won't in future.
If weed didn't increase risk of schizophrenia, I wouldn't be negative about it. But it does, especially in adolescent brains (ages 12-18) which are undergoing the second major (and 2nd biggest) phase of development, due to, among other things, hormonal changes. The first big (and biggest) phase of brain development is in little children aged 2-5, and no-one would want them puffing at spliffs, would they?
Why is that? because we intuitively think it would be bad for their brains. So why should we think it's ok for our adolescent kids to do the same?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Most people I know take some form of "illicit" drugs.
None have killed anybody,lost their job/home/wife whatever.
In fact to these people drugs have had an overwhelmingly positive effect (thats why they take them).
Some of the best times of my life have involved the use of some sort of controlled substance yet 17 years after my first joint I still have not been "surrounded by a vile sub-culture of addiction, family breakdown, ruthless criminality and misery"
If a drug has a negative effect STOP doing it.Legality has nothing to do with it.
In fact the fact that using drugs can result in a prison sentence stops addicts from seeking help.The law is the problem more than the drugs.
Im not reccommending that people do drugs of any kind but lots of people do without it having a negative impact on their lives.
Why should anyone care what I do to my own body as long as it doesnt affect anybody else?
Of course children and adolescents shouldnt do drugs but its the illegality that makes it so easy for them to get their hands on them- Legalise and control the drug trade rather than letting your kids buy drugs off gangsters
As for musicians- probably at least half of the musicians that people here would regard as heroes indulge in a bit of class A criminality.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by JimR
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Enough of pots & black kettles.
There seems to be a consensus of opinion here that drink & smoking are as bad as any of the so-called harder drugs & KML said: "The first big (and biggest) phase of brain development is in little children aged 2-5, and no-one would want them puffing at spliffs, would they?" But what about a child's development ... before it's born?
I'm sure we've all known, to my mind, totally irresponsible, mothers who smoke & drink all through pregnancy & fathers who do likewise while with their spouse. I'm sure that is bound to have a negative effect on the child's development too, isn't it?
So how many boozin', faggin' pregnant women have you seen playing in a session? I know I've seen a few. I can't honestly say though, if I've ever seen anyone high "on speed and coke", because in all honesty I wouldn't know the signs but hey, if parents are stupid enough to abuse their unborn kids bodies with the detrimental effects of the *more acceptable drugs*, (
) then I've no doubt that there are some out there who wouldn't think twice about doing so with the harder ones.
Perhaps it should be the responsibility of the session host to dissuade the use of hard drugs at, or before, a session? I know I would not tolerate a drunk musician at our sessions & I would certainly send a dope, speed or coke head packing! Be honest, would you tolerate them in your session?
Our music should be a big enough *High* for us all, shouldn't it?
P.S. Less than 4 weeks to go & then we'll finally be free of the Nicotine Heads in our session pubs here! .... Yipppeeee
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Key, I was avoding this and then saw your comment. My dear niece suffered that effect. I knew here well, and as she grew up. When rebelling and getting involved with the wrong sorts, yes, I'm judging that ~ the 'wrong' sorts, she started smoking mj. The change in her was dramatic, and paranoia was one nasty side effect, and depression. She wasn't the child I'd known for the previous 16 or more years... She has quit but still has problems, problems she didn't have before taking up the weed.
I apologize, I haven't followed all of this, for one because I was afraid of it. I've lost friends to shight, and I include tobacco and alcohol in with the lot called 'drugs'. I've seen minds and lives fried and damaged by it, so I knew I'd rant, which it seems I'm now doing...
Back on the 'smoke', whether it is tobacco or weed, it eats away at your insides, destroys the lining of your lungs and digestive track and KILLS! I don't know one relative or friend who kept up the addiction who wasn't killed by it, and who didn't suffer going down. I have also cringed seeing the inconsiderate act of parents exposing their addiction to the innocent, meaning their children and anyone else in breathing distance of their fumes...
Sorry ~ I did try to stay out of here...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I don't blame the addict. I believe all drugs should be legal, so we know who needs help and so things are open and accessible and help is possible. The current situation sucks...making criminals of addicts... It ain't right. ~ nuff said...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
~ nuff said ~ meaning ~ by me...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"If a drug has a negative effect STOP doing it."
Good advice, Jim. It's just that one of the negative effects that a of drugs have is that they make you want more. Try telling someone who's about to sink their 18th pint that they've had enough. Try telling *anything* to someone who's off their head on coke.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I hear spoon players like crack cocaine and heroin. Is this true?
How do you know who is doing what and when because it is kept so quite.
Doesnt bother me if some one smokes some whacky backy as long as they dont expect me to do it too.
I know lots of musicians who do it but I think it doesnt effect their music. It actually makes them play way slower. Especially on disprin.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by eurbanjo
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I know you're a "consensus" sort of guy, ptarmigan, but I think you're out of luck this time. Drugs - including alcohol and tobacco as well as all the others - are just too emotive an issue.
If we're honest, I would have thought that most of us (surely it must be *all* of us?) know someone whose lives have been completely ruined by drugs (again incl t&a) ... and that tends to make it emotive.
But you won't get a consensus because some people will tell others to 'lighten up' and that they just want to have fun, and it's just 'recreation'.
(Not shocked of Ross-on-Wye, Dow, just a bit fatalistic.)
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"I hear spoon players like crack cocaine and heroin. Is this true?"
I think it might be time for another name change.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
cyllell?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
>But what about a child's development ... before it's born?
Yep, good point as is your subsequent comments.
Just to clarify, I meant brain development in children who are already born. Much of the change that takes place in babies' brains post partum are apoptotic, ie many neurons get programmed to die, if apropriate connections from other neurons aren't made. That "selection" initially "shapes" our brains. So I was referring to after that process.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Irish Traditional Drugs eh?
The ancient Celtic shamans (aka 'Druids') would often get totally tripped out on belladonna, mistletoe, mandrake and/or the wide assortment of mushrooms that has been available to man all over the world and used for their shamanistic mental voyages.
Musicians were a part of the Druidic class of society in the ancient Celtic world, so no doubt they were often enlisted to provide a musical soundtrack for such shamanistic voyages.
Or perhaps they even joined in, and the effects of traveling between the worlds would have been heard on their music...
…and it probably sounded like a buncha ancient Celtic musicians tripping their faces off, trying to remember the notes to that reel called “When Bob the Druid Comes Back from the Spirit World”…
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Nothing wrong with a spliff and a stout/ lager/ ale (especially at sessions- possibly even essential!) but lay off the top shelf, gak, whites and the rest and you'll be OK.
It helps one get into "automatic pilot" mode when backing at a session and plainly helps one play better...but everyone is different.
There is a tradition you know! The tradition of weed and playing music. Over the generations many innovative and virtuoisic musos have been known to toke the occasional zut!
What is a pain is all the self-righteous idiots (with minges or that have been dipped in Detol) that lump all things into "drugs" but exclude fags and hard booze and then lecture on about what's illegal/ bad for us/ morally justified and such like...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I used meth for 15 years and played the whole time, and was miserable the whole time. My playing got worse and I finally hermited myself away from the rest of the world (outside the drug culture). Four years clean now, and my playing is finally starting to come back to where it was before all the stupid sh*t. So it is VERY possible for players to use speed and play trad, I just couldn't maintain it. I never lost my love for the music during that time, but I lost my ability to be functional for anything other than using the drug. Everyone does. I've known some extremely talented musicians, artists, mechanics and people in every other profession loose everything because of that sh*t. No one can do it for long without loosing themselves to it.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by MartySmith
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Well I don't take any drugs (including alcohol and tobacco - and coffee/tea) but I know plenty of people musicians and non-musicians who do. I used to think, growing up that it was something underground and dangerous done by people with no hope in their lives as an escape and it scared me to death. What if my sister or a friend or future children got into this? How would I cope?
I don't know if it is a good thing or not that I now view drugs a little differently. I still would not go near them myself and I still worry a bit about how it might effect those close to me in the future but there is simply not the option of Kennedy's of leaving a session, or similar situation and never going back as it would probably leave me with nowhere to go. Drugs are too widespread.
I have been at a party once where people took coke in another room from me. They spent a fortune and the only effect I could see is that they could no longer play their instruments. I am not sure what I expected but they did not get aggressive or nasty as I have seen happen with alcohol but they did become musically useless and their chat disappeared. They insisted that they were having a great time and I wouldn't know because I have never tried it and they might be right but as long as I can keep on having a good time stone cold sober then I see no need to do anything else.
People can forget the idea that this thread was an April Fools joke however. Illegal hard drugs are very popular with young folk in society and people with disposable incomes. If you have young professional musician who have a disposable income (even if they are not making fortunes) and they have no job to get up for in the morning so their life becomes a bit like a big long party, sleeping in the mornings then what do you think they will be doing? Yes that is right. The same as anyone else in their position.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"Nothing wrong with a spliff and a stout/ lager/ ale (especially at sessions- possibly even essential!) but lay off the top shelf, gak, whites and the rest and you'll be OK."
I don't think it's any more useful to say, "you'll be OK" than it is to condemn all illicit drugs indiscriminately. Ceolachan's story is enough to tell us that there *are* risks, however small they may (or may not) be:
"My dear niece.... smoking mj. The change in her was dramatic ... paranoia.... depression.... She has quit but still has problems".
People should know that there are risks before making the decision to indulge. Probably like a large proportion of smokers of the 'Holy Weed', I am not unfamiliar with the effects that C's niece experienced, albeit to a much milder extent. It also burned a considerable hole in my pocket - not to mention countless small ones in my shirts. It was enough to make me realise that I couldn't do it all the time and 'be OK'. Fortunately for me, I can still enjoy an occasional toot without ill effects. Some people can't do so, or simply don't have the strength of will to keep it 'occasional'. Some, on the other hand, can chain-smoke the most potent genetically mutilated skunk and still lead a stable and productive life. Life isn't fair. Or is it? Why do people want to spend their whole life stoned, anyway?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by granama
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Let me just start by reiterating that I think that drugs do not generally enhance the playing of ITM. And I do have to agree with Danny's assertion that the links between spliffing, especially skunk, and schizophrenia are becoming too well documented to ignore. I had a close friend at university who became utterly lost to schizophrenia. I know three other lads from my school days who also developed the condition. They were all heavy stoners. And I can appreciate the testimony of people like Marty above. Without wanting to diminish anybody's personal sorrows or suffering though, I do have to disagree with the line, stated or implied, that taking up with drugs inevitably ends in misery. This is just not true.
I took drugs hard and soft regularly for almost a quarter of a century. It never caused any major problems, although I had a few scrapes with the law. Otherwise I have always had a good job, developed professionally and am happily married. I eventually sort of 'moved on' from drugs, the same way perhaps that I outgrew the thrill of motorbikes. Most of my friends also took drugs regulary, some continue to do so, and with the exception of the lad at uni, none of us came to grief. It's like driving, some people will have bad accidents, most will not. And just before anybody jumps in and says that's a facetious analogy, at the end of the day, I think that cars and the automobile industry will be judged a much greater source of harm to mankind and the planet and our collective quality of life than drugs.
Ptarmigan, you say that you would chase anyone from 'your' session if they were drunk. Surely that's laying it on a bit theatrically? Most musicians I know at sessions (and I was reared in a fairly conservative part of Ireland) are drunk, if not when they walk in the door, then by the time they leave. Now they aren't so drunk they're falling over or talking endless sh!te or playing badly. But they certainly would be over the limit if it came to a breathalyser. But they remain consumately charming and considerate and beyond a liability to laugh a bit too easily and a little bit too long at weak jokes are great company. Are these the people you would chase from 'your' session? Similarly, if someone was slightly out of it on any illicit substance and was still able to function in a non-intrusive way, what on earth business would it be of yours?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
The dangers of crossposting Part 61. Both 'No Cause for Alarm' and 'Spoon' managed to get in and say it more succinctly while I was furrowing my brow at the keyboard.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
bb. Greenwiggle may well be in the habit of not getting into arguments and not slagging and always making helpful comments as you say, but his one and only post to this thread was a piece of spiteful vitriol directed straight at me from the blue (whoever he is I don't recall having a history with him!) and definitely not to the point. I've been posting here for weeks now and have contributed quite well I feel and displayed humour at times. Not in this topic I freely admit, for reasons I HAVE bothered to give. He hasn't been following, obviously. He sees a controversial post from me then spits without checking recent history. It really isn't very nice. Maybe you need to ask him what he's on.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Hmmm. I don't see any vitriol in Greenwiggle's post, but I did find it in spades here:
"Every bloody thing that you don't agree with is "hilarious" to you it seems, Dow you pompous sod! Turn the friggin' record over why don't you! What a bore!"
No smiley emoticons, no hint that it's meant in jest. Maybe that's what greenwiggle was responding to. And I'd tend to agree with him.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
And I've never even said hello to you or had any dealings with you and you've branded me an '@rsehole' from the off!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
This discussion started out being about kids doing coke and speed at Irish music sessions, and has morphed into name calling and people defending marijuana and alcohol.
Coke and speed are SOOOO much different from pot and alcohol, I can't see how anyone could miss this. Anyone ever see pictures of a meth lab cleanup site? Seen young children burned by fires from meth stoves? Seen the toxic waste that gets dumped into backyard creeks? One pound of meth produces 6 pounds of toxic waste.
And then there's the cocaine smuggling trade. Whole wars down in Colombia just so rich Western kids can stick spoons in their noses.
Sergeant fox, you asked earlier what's screwed up about coke and speed. It's not just about you and the fun you have when you get high. These drugs come from somewhere---somebody makes them and transports them---there are real costs, people get hurt, and you support that every time you buy a bag from your dealer friend. I just don't find any of this to be humourous or cool.
Wow, what a downer I am. Sorry everyone. I'm happy to say I haven't seen any of this at any of the sessions I go to, though---as far as I know, it's all good clean fun.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I don't think I ever implied, let alone thought, that it was 'humorous or cool'. And thank you for the patronising sermon about it 'not just being about you and the fun you have when you get high'. I am of course well aware of the links between western drug markets and misery and violence in the third world/developing world which is primarily where I have lived and worked for the last decade. My heroin escapades were largely in south east Asia and bizarrely my crack experiences were in West Africa. So please don't lazily castigate me as some sort of rich kid driving my dads Merc across the tracks to score for my college friends. The places where I have worked and consumed drugs do indeed suffer in some ways from western demand. In many other ways local people prosper. The Afghan smallholder, the Bolivian peasant, formerly perhaps their Vietnamese counterparts can all make more from illicit crops than from the more traditional crops. And just while we're up on our soapboxes Kennedy, the same places that I have been working for the past decade have had their national fabric much more severly damaged by the military adventures of your fatherland and the disasterous policies of the neo-liberal, structural adjusting economists who came along in their wake. If you're so appalled at the misery and violence in much of the southern hemisphere (that's not a sideways dig at Dow and bb!) your righteous ire might be more usefully directed at the issue of third world debt.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Actually, yeah, you did imply that it was cool. You wrote that you were working on getting stoned.
And I'm sorry to sound patronizing. The "you" was intended more as a universal "you"---"you" who don't understand what's screwed up about coke and speed. Anybody who doesn't get that is either naive or ignorant or something else, I don't know.
And you yourself might not be the rich kid driving your father's Mercedes to buy from your dealer, but a lot of kids are, and these are the kids I believe Dow was writing about in the first place. They're the ones who are just interested in having fun and don't see what's bad about it.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
That was a joke, Kennedy. I just couldn't resist riffing off Dow's previous comment where he said that for my views I deserved to be 'stoned to death'!. If you'd read on you would see that I wrote that as I grew older I left drugs behind. Nowadays its vipassana meditation and marathon running that floats my boat. And I'm sorry if I got a bit shirty in that previous post.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by sergeant fox
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Much as I dislike getting involved in a slanging match (ubless someone's got one of those perishing tuner thingies nearby
) I also don't like to see someone attacked for no particularly good reason. I've never seen Kennedy be anything other than gentle ... until this thread, when the subject was obviously a sensitive one.
So why attack Kennedy - who is, after all, entiled to an opinion - even if you do take it back later?
"I took drugs hard and soft regularly for almost a quarter of a century. It never caused any major problems"
I wouldn' be so sure, fox ... unless it's the vipassana meditation that's winding you up?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I've finally took the time and set my worries aside and read all of the above... It turns out to have been as scary in places as I imagined, downright personal at times... A sign that things have deteriorated is when all the world's whoes are suddently brought in to the argument, like the ozone layer and things geo-political...
Brow furrowing at the keyboard, checking out the condition of my soapbox, will it support my weight? I am basically siding up with Kennedy and ptarmigan, if we need to state sides and inclinations...
Yea, I've known some folks who have dabbled in drugs (& I am inclusive) and are still standing, but I don't know if that necessarily equates as healthy and unaffected. Some folks are willing to accept some things as acceptable and OK that I can't. In sessions the two worse things that raise memories in me aren't the occassional splif, as some have said, it's people who can't play because either alcohol or tobacco or both have eaten away at them and reduced their ability to make music. I've seen it done to some damned talented people, and wonderful characters, many that are no longer with us because of the destruction working deeper... I am not thinking of one of the best young pipers I've ever heard, who in our regular meets fell deeper and deeper into alcoholism and at the end was all shakes, couldn't play worth shight... And there are a few famous musicians who favoured the splif that were a**holes under the influence, but thought themselves as funny, while having a tendency to muck up the music and to treat others with disrespect.
I'm also with Ptarmigan in that we didn't stand for any crap in our events. Alcohol was present, but drunks were moved on and anyone flashing drugs around was soon booted out. All our activities were family events, including any sessions, which tended to be house sessions or in local village halls. I didn't like myself under any of those possible influences, wouldn't want to make music with my inebriated self ~ and consequently have no interest in making music with drunks or those who have given up a sizeable percentage of their consciousness to chemicals rather than being here with the rest of us and the music and craic. No, that shight doesn't contribute to the craic for me, it takes away from it. I also am not fond of cleaning up after an alcohol or drug induced sick friend, mentally or all over the furniture and floor.
Music and nature are all the high I need for my shamanistic voyages...
I like Marty Smith's tale, which I take as saying that in a sense the music helped to carry him along and eventually helped to pull him out of the shight and madness?
'Alarm', yes, my experience too ~ they imagine they are the life of the party, some even imagine they can play and are hot. And there are those that have just figured out the answer to some major world ill, which may be a further figment? I choose to no longer nurse the drug dependant, whatever their 'drug' of choice is, including alcohol & tobacco... I consider it a waste of time and effort. it is my experience that truly wasted musicians haven't the slightest inclination or ability to be musical... I worry for them, but I also worry for their instruments and those that have to clean up after them, a job I've had my share of. Maybe if I were equally wasted I'd be able to appreciate the noise, but no thank you... I prefer the company of my unjudgemental pioneer friends...
I am a bit fed up with stereotypes, like that of the Irish drunk, or the Irish drunk (drugged) musician, or that somehow that is a necessary part of it all ~ bullshigt! There are a hell of a lot of 'pioneers' in Eire too, and most of my friends, musical and otherwise, were not drunks. There were a few I've carried to a safe place after a session and they blotto, only a few. I've also done the research into the history of the thing too. While the drunken excesses survive in story, naturally, most gatherings and house and crossroad and other times of music and dance and social craic ~ were not to the point of abuse. In times of want and poverty even the grain and potatoes that make poteen are measured carefully...
Yeah searg, however, with the growth in product for the west the cheap availability of those things in the countries where they are cultivated means a huge and growing population of addicts, for example in Afghanistan, Bolivia, and elsewhere, and around those poppy fields and processing plants, including children...
The greater profit is amongst the criminal elements in the West. What scares them most? ~ loss of profit! ~ that we might control drugs ~ by making them legal...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I agree Ceol. My kids go to a school where the fit healthy fathers are the drug pushers who won't take the stuff themselves (doesn't that tell you something? Would anyone here trust a cook who wouldn't eat her own food?) and the skinny, death pale mothers and fathers are the addicts who haven't yet had their children taken from them. Then there are the kids who have been taken away from their drug addict parents and who are being brought up by grandparents, foster parents or adoptive parents, but are still having difficulties due to the experiences they had before they got there. It's enough to prove to me that drugs are not to be taken lightly.
In addition, if it's illegal to drive a car under the influence of drugs because they impair your ability to drive, how does anyone work out that they should improve their ability to play music?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bowburner
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
You don't have to rip of the third world if you smoke skunk as it has been genetically engineered to produce a high yield of THC (delta 9 tetra-hydrocannabinol - the potent one) but unfortunately that's the one that also leads to SCZ. So double whammy for stoners - bad Kharma if you get Afghani or Leb, bad brain if you get skunk. I'm just wondering if anyone managed to read the interview with Robin Murray, for which I put a URL. I didn't hear any feedback. No worries if not.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Phew! I've just read through it and it's interesting stuff. It seems to say that 25% of us have the potential mix of genes for schizophrenia and if these are aggravated by environment or cannabis then we could deveop schizophrenia. Is that right?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by bowburner
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I didn't come down on either side of the fence on this one because I don't live my life in someone else's shoes.
I don't smoke anything, inject anything, or snort anything. I do enjoy two or three drinks during a session, but sometimes I have only one pint, or none at all.
I regularly talk with my teenage sons about the dangers of alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, but I hope I do it in a rational, informed, and not self-righteous way. (E.g., pot isn't a healthy thing to ingest, but t's far easier to reach an acutely toxic level of alcohol. Why is one legal and the other isn't? Discuss.) The choices they make are their own, and they are highly educated about the natural consequences of those choices.
Steve, do you have a problem with me joining a thread here?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
> "In addition, if it's illegal to drive a car under the influence of drugs because they impair your ability to drive, how does anyone work out that they should improve their ability to play music?"
The requirements for driving a car a very different than those required to play music. You need to have quick reflexes, good judgement, and good concentration (legally, at least).
While those might be good things to have for playing music, they're not nearly as critical.
People might use certain substances to be able to relax (a very important part of being able to play music), or to gain confidence, etc.
I don't condone using "illicit drugs" for any purpose.
But for me, personally, I feel like I play better after a few pints (and worse again after a few more). And more importantly, I enjoy a session more when I've had a few pints.
Thank God that the Guinness brewery doesn't utilize an underground distribution network that destroys people's lives (does it?)
Pete
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
And Will, I think Steve probably just had a problem with you throwing a direct quote of his back in his face... (quite masterfully, I might add) Oh... and that shifty grin of yours that keeps fading in and out
Pete
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
The defenders of the illicit drug culture habitually (heheh) resort to the fallacious logic of comparing their substance(s) of choice with alcohol and tobacco. The latter are statistically more harmful so what are you party poopers on about, they say? Well, such folk are seeking refuge in this false argument to justify their personal tipple, more often than not. If a substance is bad, it's bad. Argue for it or against it on its own merits. Stop using the fags and booze to prop up your shaky standpoint. If it's bad, it's bad, and it can't be justified by comparing it with something even badder. What's so hard about that?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Abuse suggests extremes, not the pint or two or a brownie's worth of home grown... But on the abuse side, so my passion might make some sense, and showing how young it can start ~ one colleague in the circles I used to frequent, working with the 'disadvantaged', worked an area of Manchester where the babysitter of choice was whatever sedating drug was on hand, including heroine. The recieving end of the shot or dose was a baby, anything from in the cradle to waddling to first words... They would dope their kids up with the chemical baby sitter and then go out on the town for the night.
I also came across this in Dublin too, and remember walking up to a so-called child center where a load of the children had their heads in bags full of glue, the tubes lying about them on the sidewalk, they completely unable to do more than shake or wobble from a sitting or lying position. They smiled at me but their eyes were lifeless, unfocused...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
So, there's a traditional Irish drug I can add to the list from what I actually know ~ glue, solvents, in tubes, in cans, whatever...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Steve, if you're insinuating that I'm on a witch hunt for you, and that I'm not being straightforward and honest, then you're so far off the mark it's silly.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Steve,
I find both of Will's posts in this thread to be even tempered and honest. On the other hand, I find your posts to be inflammatory, judgmental, or ultra-defensive.
From your first post, you are condemning people who might have a different viewpoint than yours, you automatically group them into a lump category, refer to them in derogatory ways, and repeatedly insult them. Taking an "us vs. them" approach to the discussion.
Never mind that the people that you refer to as "defenders of the drug culture" have often said things like "I don't condone it", or have explained in detail where their viewpoint comes from (several times without invoking the "lesser of evils" defense that seems to have you all worked up).
> "If it's bad, it's bad, and it can't be justified by comparing it with something even badder. What's so hard about that?"
I wish I lived in a world where everything was that black and white. It might make life easier. But maybe you should relax a bit and try to understand that people may have different opinions than you on some subjects, and that doesn't automatically make them @rseholes. Maybe you could do more good by having an intelligent conversation with them, helping inform them of why they might be misguided, instead of being inflammatory and conflicting.
And before you condemn me as one of "them", I have had two friends die from heroin overdoses, and have lost loved ones to cigarettes and alcohol. I am aware of the risks, the addiction problems, and the crime associated with a lot of illicit substances.
Pete
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
We have no chance of having a debate about drugs whilst people like you, rev, continually hitch the argument to the "so what - booze and fags are so much worse" school, as in your last paragraph. I'm very sorry about your friends but your argument is fallacious. It is an exceptionally dishonest argument (which does not mean I'm calling YOU dishonest - read on) which a large number of posters have either fallen for or acquiesce in. I have actually been very patient in making this point Gawd knows how many times but the more I stick to it and remain consistent the more I get condemned by the equivocators. It is a very important topic. It is not one that calls for soft talk or diplomacy at all costs. If you can't stand the heat and all that. Well at least we've stopped being bloody flippant about it (see first post), so maybe something has been achieved, eh?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Trying to kickstart the discussion into a discussion again, I'm wondering how many of the young players Dow referred to in his initial post, are influenced by how they perceive, or are influenced by the behaviour of, rock stars or "mainstream" musicians. Pete Doherty for example.
As I'm sure some misguided 2nd generation London Irish kids of a previous generation would have thought all you need to do is drink 20 pints and you'll become a great songwriter-cum-alcoholic-intellectual romantic figure like Shane McGowan.
Any thoughts?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
No where did Pete suggest that alcolhol and tobacco are worse. He's not equivocating, and neither am I. Did you miss his reference to heroin, Steve?
Some of us are actually agreeing with the gist of your view on this, yet you insist on being belligerent. That's your perogative of course, but it strikes me as counterproductive at the least.
Back on topic: Despite all the horrors of addiciton and drug-related crime and the disastrous effects on adults and children (vis a vis Ceolachan's post above) alike, it's not easy for me to condemn drug use when I enjoy a few drinks at my twice-a-week sessions. Use is use.
But reason also suggests there is a wide difference between a pint or three once or twice a week, and shooting heroin or meth every day. And a difference as well between sporadic use of drugs and outright addiction. Some people are more vulnerable to addiciton than others. Some people react to certain drugs more strongly than other people do. I've yet to meet an addict who actually wanted to be an addict. But beyond that it gets pretty fuzzy from my point of view.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Danny, I've wondered that too, but also worry about role models within the tradition. Some brilliant trad players are/were infamous for their drug use. I'm not sure genre of music makes a difference.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Yes, such infamous trad players also, but do they provide the same role model to younger trad players as does eg Mr. Doherty? Perhaps they do.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Curiouser and curiouser... What I am reminded is all the addicts I've known, whatever their poison, who told me they could quit whenever the wanted. They weren't addicted... One did quit recently, died of their addiction, clearly related symptoms and results... "Some people are more vulnerable" ~ I think I remember them raising that issues, and also about how some folks have the genes, like a lottery, either that will develop into things that will kill them, or that will protect them from the bad effects of their chosen poison... Yeah, I've heard that one before, and before, and before, and I'll hear it again and again I suspect...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
No matter how often you repeat something it doesn't necessarily make it true...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Our nature is that we are 'vulnerable'...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Oh I agree, C, that's mostly my point. I don't want to point my finger at someone as a "drug user" when I take drink myself and am therefore vulnerable to becoming addicted.
I suppose abstinence is the only completely safe way to go with these things, and all power to them that abstains. But I'm not comfortable condemning occasional drinkers or users on that basis alone. None of us lives in another's shoes, so we can't know how someone else is affected.
Are we all vulnerable? Yes. But that doesn't mean everyone assumes the same degree of risk.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Sometimes, I like to get a bit stoned with my mates and play diddley tunes. And we find it really quite satisfying. There, I said it.
And what else I find quite satisfying is that there is absolutly nothing Steve Shaw and his ilk can do about it.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
hee hee - good one michael.
I used to do exactly that but don't now for reasons I outlined above. I also said I've no issue with anyone doing waht they want spliff-wise, as long as they don't have a brain that's still developing. All I suggest is read Robin Murray's interview. But the stuff about 3rd world exploitation - ok, maybe I take issue at that.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
It's not easy for me to condemn drug use when I enjoy a few drinks at our twice-a-week sessions. Thus saith he of the grinning feline soubriquet. Well, here's the nub of it. It is, in fact, very easy. I have a pint or (insert number to taste) at my once-weekly sessions and I do condemn drug use. I've given my boring reasons so many times I'm wilting. I do not have to be perfect to speak out about something. I can criticise the England football team formation though I can't kick a ball straight. I can call McEwan's latest novel a bloody bore though I can't string two paragraphs together. I can rail against the food industry for encouraging obesity in children whilst resorting to the occasional fish supper. I can condemn all forms of pornography though I pick up the Daily bloody Sport or whatever it's called when I'm waiting to get my hair cut. I can be a rabid atheist (which I am) and listen in awe to Bach's B minor mass (which I do) or go and visit great cathedrals (which I also do). I can rant about the erosion of ITM then go and play Harvest friggin' Home all night. Jeez, I can even do that and get me bodhran out. We are HUMAN BEINGS, oh grinning one, and we can speak out without fear or favour if something is getting on our tits, imperfect though we be. To suggest that you can't speak out with conviction about the misuse of damaging and illegal substances "because you like a pint or three yourself at the session" is pusillanimous, sanctimonious claptrap. Good grief, the human race wouldn't have got very far with that attitude. Maybe it hasn't! Now please excuse me. That's my tour de force done for tonight. I wish to go and find something musical to post about. I may be gone from this benighted thread for some time. Grrr.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Hi there Steve
I'm Greenwiggle.
You may remember from such threads as "Call to arms of the glee club" and "Where's the joy".
In answer to your name calling, i have always been known on this site under this name. Call me what you like.
I also remember you swearing you were never going to post here again, and taking your harmonicas off to other sites. Well, every person is entitled to change their minds. When I saw you were back online I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and see if you had modified your online behaviour. (Magnanimous...no?)
Reading occasionally over the last month, I see numerous occassions of bullying and schoolyard standover tactics towards anyone who disagrees with your point of view - but whenever anyone mentions it, it seems to be - "Can't anyone take a joke?" or"Isn't this a public forum?"
So we understand each other Steve, just because you post here and so do I, doesn't mean I like you or your bullish behaviour. Maybe a course in online anger management might assist you.
Here's a glimpse from the archives.
"Jack, in contrast to Kysh's orginal question, a month or two back a harmonica player accused the lot of us of ruining the discussions here by being too joyful, always joking and kidding around, never taking the stuff seriously. He called us the 'Glee Club,' which we promptly appropriated for ourselves. I think I'm a charter member (so is Zina). But you've already been inducted, whether you knew it--or wnated to be--or not.
"
P.S. Let the mason's have their pyramids...the Glee Club has it's
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Greenwiggle
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Oh, bugger. I need links to those threads, mate...
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Steve, you just automatically lash out at anyone who you perceive to be disagreeing with you. It's almost comical.
I'd like you to point out where I "hitched the argument to the 'so what - booze and fags are so much worse'"
I did no such thing at any point. What I DID do was point out that you seem to be so hung up on battling that argument, that you're coming off as combative and argumentative, instead of paying attention to what people are actually saying (without bringing up that particular argument.)
Drugs cause problems in a lot of people's lives. There's no doubt about that. What I was attempting to do was point out that the world is not as black and white as you seem to believe. And I was actually trying to HELP you in my last post by pointing out that you could "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" -- by having an intelligent discussion without trying to belittle people that aren't necessarily in agreement with you.
But you're so hell-bent on being defensive that you can't see that I'm actually more or less on your side!
LOL
Anyway, back to the original topic at hand, I also find it "funny" (as in "gosh, who woulda figured?") that younger trad musicians would be mixing hard drugs with playing the music. I have seen the other side, where people mix drugs with electronic, industrial, and goth music. That's about as far away as you can get, musically speaking.
But a lot of the "trad" bands back in the the 70's were caught up in the "rock n roll" drug culture. This is not something new, I guess.
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I read half way through this - the same old stuff that I've seen in pro/contra drugs arguments.
The way I see it, most people like to lose it a bit. Some go for drugs, others for alcohol, some for both. It's all the same as far as I'm concerned. If drugs weren't available people would drink more alcohol; if alcohol wasn't available, people would resort to drugs.
The fact is, people will always want/need stimulants. Alcohol is a drug; the fact that it's been in use for thousands of years doesn't make it any less a drug. So if you condemn drug use and at the same time you are an alcohol user, you are a hypocrite. It's that simple. The problem is not the drug, the problem is you. If you choose to abuse a drug then accept the consequences, along with everyone else who has to put up with you.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Erm, Steve, I never suggested that you or anyone else couldn't condemn drugs if you drink alcohol. I did say that such a stance doesn't come easy for *me.* And all I mean by that is that I can't simply wave off my alcohol use as harmless and turn around to bad mouth someone who uses it or any other drug.
In short, it's less about condemning or not condemning someone else's behavior and more about examining my own. Then again, I'm not the evangelist that you are.
As for how far the human race has progressed, I doubt it's my "pusilanimous sanctimonious claptrap" that's landed us in the tribal-religious-carbon burning-overfished-murderous state that passes for progress and prosperity.
Steve, the apparent chip on your shoulder unfortunately outweighs the substance of anything you have to say.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Spot on, Conan.
Remember this bumper sticker? "Reality is for people who can't cope with drugs."
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Cheers Will.
The only reason I can write the last sentence is because I've learned from experience.
Not proud of myself but every day is a school-day, as the saying goes.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Hehe I chose a good thread topic this time didn't I?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
You "pot" stirrer, you....
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Sshh you're not allowed to make jokes.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Yes Dow, you did. I'm listening to the Pogues, in honor of this thread.
Nice to see you again, Greenwiggle!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by soft black stars
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
F*ck! Dow - you and I are screwed. Ptarmi wouldnt tolerate anyone drunk at his session! Oh well, probably good that we arent anywhere near his session then:(
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
There is use. And there is abuse:
"Metaphor or allegory, now that I can read it again without the benefit of three bottles of Thatcher's Katy swirling around me bloodstream I can see it was a bloody waste of ink and paper anyway." Steve Shaw.
The Department of Health advises that men should not regularly drink more than 3 - 4 units of alcohol per day, and women should not regularly drink more than 2 - 3 units of alcohol per day.
1 x 500ml bottle of Katy varietal cider constitutes 4.2 Units
Now, I abuse myself in this manner frequently. But I don't condemn others for their choice of narcotic.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Ottery
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Alistar - you dont "take coffee or tea"??? I'm assuming you then dont Take chocolate either - on account of the caffine.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
It's ok we could play for a while and then pack away our instruments and go for a proper night out
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Doubled risk of schizophrenia from cannibis use...I didn't follow up, but what were the odds before all the smoke I wonder? I have other real risks to worry about.
What if you always avoided drugs because of this and you became schizophrenic anyway? Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by ottoschmelk
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
bb when did you suddenly become such a quick typer? Have you snorting that washing powder again?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
What if you always avoided drugs and then became a criminal anyway and broke into houses and killed people and stuff. How would the law courts explain your behaviour?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Gee, jokes in this thread give a whole new meaning to the Glee Club....
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Well, the War on Drugs has been replaced with the War on Terror. Formerly you would have been an addict, now you are probably a terrorist.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by ottoschmelk
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I take a pint myself on a good day out i would probally spill more than most of ye would drink. I hate drugs and i'd love to pack in the drink someday because i really admire people who can go out play a few tunes have a good laugh without drink/drugs. Drink is totally over abused in Ireland and so many families suffer because of it and for anyone to express the satisfaction they get from drugs on a site that kids have access to needs to grow up.At the end of the day DRINK AND DRUGS WRECKS LIVES..............
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
> DRINK AND DRUGS WRECKS LIVES
Saint, that has such a note of absoluteness (again with the black and white thing). I think the point that a number of people on this thread have been trying to get across is that "DRINK AND DRUGS *SOMETIMES* WRECK LIVES".
If you ask the kids that are mixing drugs with trad, you would likely find that they KNOW that the drugs might wreck their lives. Will it wreck all of their lives? Not likely. The majority of them will grow up like the rest of us at some point, and get it together.
If you ask them whether they CARE that it might wreck their lives - they are also likely to respond with "I don't care". I don't know about you, but I remember being young... It's amazing that any of us live to see our 30s
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Hey everyone, I've decided to give up chocolate. I had 2 pieces yesterday because it's Easter, but now I'm feeling really guilty. I've read that chocolate contains sugar and fat. If I eat too much of it, the sugar will rot my teeth away and the fat will cause me to put on more and more weight until I become obese. In fact, I will be so obese that it will lead to other health issues like heart problems and diabetes, and my subsequent inability to lose weight will cause psychological breakdown and I will end up being a hermit, and all my relationships with my family and friends will be ruined. So I don't want to hear anyone condone the eating of chocolate on this website, even though I had 2 bits myself last night. You're all sick, the lot of you, SICK I tell you!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
BTW, I do agree with Will, it's important to talk to younger people about the issues associated with alcohol and drugs. But in the end, they're going to make their own decisions.
I'm not saying that "kids will be kids" and that we should just let them do whatever they want.
But I would venture to say that a lot of my behavior as a teenager was a direct result of REBELLION against the hard line taken by my parents about this kind of stuff. I would have welcomed an informed, and rational conversation about it, as opposed to the black and white approach that my parents took (and several people seem to be condoning on this thread).
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Dont forget that you'd then have to go on Dr Phil to work out your eating disorders Dow!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
LOL Dow
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Dow your probally in a middle class bubble , i dont know but i ve seen a lot of sh*t and i have always been anti drugs at any level so thats my opinion and i feel very strong about it .Your entitled to your opinion to no matter how stupid it is.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Middle class bubble? Dow?? Hahhahaahaaaaahaaa!
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
My hardline approach is nt towards kids .Its towards the adults who say its not that bad ,the adults who supply the drugs at sessions and the adults who turn a blind eye. If your not part of the solution your part of the problem and it is a problem.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Dow your probally in a middle class bubble , i dont know but i ve seen a lot of sh*t and i have always been anti drugs at any level so thats my opinion and i feel very strong about it .Your entitled to your opinion to no matter how stupid it is.
X
5/10 See me.
Dow, you're probably in a middle class bubble. I don't know but I've seen a lot of sh*t, and I have always been anti-drugs at any level, so that's my opinion and I feel very strongly about it. You're entitled to your opinion too, no matter how stupid it is.
√
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"My hardline approach is nt towards kids .Its towards the adults who say its not that bad ,the adults who supply the drugs at sessions and the adults who turn a blind eye. If your not part of the solution your part of the problem and it is a problem."
You're right, saint, I should stop giving people free heroin at my local session just to get people addicted so they have to come back to me to get more. I must be the "anti-saint".
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Dow - can you swing by and pick me up in the limo later please?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by bb
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
If your that proud of the english language you can have it back. you also told me to shut up just like a teacher.Is it Middle class or middleclass
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Sorry to correct your English, Saint, but what else could I do? I had to do something to stop myself from reacting to your calling me stupid and implying that I'm a middle class brat with no life experience. So I kept myself occupied by doing something constructive and teaching you how to use apostophes and capital letters. It's really not all that difficult, just like treating people you don't know with a bit of respect and engaging in adult conversation and debate as opposed to calling them names and needlessly making assumptions about their class and background.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"oh god, shut up, ffs"
Ok ok, I'm being hypocritical, I know. Well forget the adult conversation bit then. That's boring anyway.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
"oh god, shut up, ffs" sorry but this comment started it respect works both ways .
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I m starting to come down now so im off to bed...............good luck with the limo/drugs and all that
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Geez Dow, I can't get a word in edgewise, you type too fast. Or are you just trying to pump up the posting stats on your thread?
> "If your not part of the solution your part of the problem and it is a problem." (sic)
That is such a load of cr@p that gets spouted off by people all the time. It is certainly possible to be neutral in a situation like that. Or should we all be proactive and print up posters espousing the dangers of playing music while in an altered state, and make sure we post them prominently around every session?
Maybe drugs at sessions are a bigger problem that I realize. But I've never seen it around where I live. It doesn't seem like it is running rampant, or ruining the lives of the entire younger generation of players. In fact, I was even surprised at how little DRINKING there was at sessions in Ireland recently, due to the crackdown on drunk driving.
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Good luck sleeping off your drug binge, saint, and I wish you all the best in your English studies. I bet it was working class druggies like you who let the tyres down on my limo last night.
"In fact, I was even surprised at how little DRINKING there was at sessions in Ireland recently, due to the crackdown on drunk driving."
That's cause they were all off their tats on the harder stuff...
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Hey Steve
Actually, all I did was go to discussions/search and type in a relevant keyword. The quote at the end is not from me - but someone else on this site. I'm pretty sure the Jeremy has deleted all of the offensive threads. I wouldn't bother my hard-drive saving discussions from years ago and cutting and pasting them before they get wiped.
Although it does ask the question...How many threads have been deleted?, as opposed to who can create the longest/funniest/hijack etc.
Cheers!
Oh, sorry, very un-pc of me considering this topic.
Dow - "The whole joint went to pot"
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Greenwiggle
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Haha you *crack* me up, Greenie.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Reverend brings up a good point. I've never seen a session with stoned musicians either (alcohol is *not* part of my scenario). Between all of us on this thread, we cover a LOT of sessions all over the world. How many have been to sessions with young musicians high on coke or speed? What did you think? How did you react?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
...meaning I'm not counting musicians who drink. They're the majority, I'm sure, and I'm not worried about that for now...
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
You don't want to believe it's true, do you? Don't worry. You can sleep at night comforted by the knowledge that the evil hasn't visited your doorstep yet. One day though, you're going to realise that you should have heeded the warnings. There'll be a youth at your session high on drugs, and you'll know it because they'll have that drawn, gaunt, pallid look about them, and the pupils of their eyes will be black as the pits of hell, and they'll be screaming blue murder and waving a gun in your face and telling you to give them your mobile phone and some spare change.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Dow, I'm not some lovey dovey American pollyanna who thinks everyone is out for tea and scones. I can tell the difference between someone who's had a few pints, someone who's stoned on pot, and someone who's on the harder stuff. You'll just have to take my word for it. I haven't seen any of the latter kind of stoned person at a session, at least not one who was playing an instrument. And Reverend says he hasn't either, which is why I was picking up on his point.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Actually, I think my point of Dow just pumping up the posting numbers on his thread may be what's going on here.
Because it sounds like even Dow has never witnessed this phenomenon, at least knowingly! This all stems from conversations with other people!
Which makes it all hearsay anyway
Pete
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I'm starting to think you're right, Rev. Hearsay is sure a good way to start a hot thread on a website, ain't it?
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
I've seen people stoned on weed in sessions, but never played with speed- and cokeheads. I heard from a good source about musicians who do do this regularly though, and I was shocked at the pure evil of it all. That's why I started the thread - to see who would agree with me that this evil needs to be stamped out now before it's too late and druggies take over our sessions.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
Oh c'mon Dow.
You really are "bubble-boy" aren't you!
I have to say that I have witnessed all sorts of carry-on in the long time I have been attending sessions, concerts and festivals. It's not something I would want to brag about.
If someone wants to "get high somewhere on something" I'm not going to tell them how best to achieve that, or how to avoid the pitfalls, as I know from experience they will take little note.
I would hope that young people can make up their own minds as to what they do to their minds, but you can only learn from your mistakes...or by watching/listening to other people's.
I get the apparent incongruity between wholesome tunes and mind altered experience, but each to their own...as long as they pose no danger to anone else. Have fun tunes tonight.
Don't let the dread drugs bite.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Greenwiggle
Re: Traditional Irish Drugs
DRINK AND DRUGS WRECKS LIVES.....................THATS MY OPINION AND I WON T CHANGE MY MIND.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by Saint
And finally...
Sex And Drugs And Rock 'N' Roll
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Is all my brain and body need
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Are very good indeed
Keep your silly ways or throw them out the window
The wisdom of your ways, I've been there and I know
Lots of other ways, what a jolly bad show
If all you ever do is business you don't like
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Is very good indeed
Every bit of clothing ought to make you pretty
You can cut the clothing, grey is such a pity
I should wear the clothing of Mr. Walter Mitty
See m