I had a chat with a friend over a pint at a session. It was in the west of ireland and there was a lot of tourists there as well as the locals. Observing the goings on a discussion broke out. We were divided on the fact that only those born and reared on the ould sod (Ireland) can really appreciate and or play ITM. A lot of music is in the heart/soul generation to genereation. A slow air at a funeral or mighty reel after hours in the local or house is in the blood he said .....I disagreed of course and ref him to the session.org . But is there something to his arguement?
If it was only 'one pint' it probably was not much of a discussion. I was not born in Ireland & perhaps cannot play Irish music nor say what is 'truly' in my heart. However I was in County Clare & it breaks my heart to say this, 'not everyone born in Ireland can really appreciate or play ITM.' Most probably do not know what ITM stands for . Still he probably has some heritage & you should listen to him. Doesn't mean his is the final voice. I do wish Ameican's could learn to simply listen. Then again the best (or worst?) heckler's I have ever heard were in Clare.
There's definitely an advantage to being born in Ireland if your destiny is to play ITM, but it doesn't mean people outside of Ireland have any sort of genetic deficiency for playing it. In Ireland you are more likely to be exposed to the music at an early age instead of discovering it later in life. This would give the Irish born person an advantage, but still have nothing to do with being “Irish.” There are people outside of Ireland who have been exposed to ITM at an early age and have become top players. Granted it's harder if you discover ITM as an adult and seek to learn it, but it doesn't make it impossible.
I'd never heard the term ITM before I came on this site. I'm sure a lot of people from Ireland, and many players, possibly many good ones, haven't heard of it either. Imagine going into a pub in Clare and saying "do they play ITM in here?" Ye'd get yer flute rammed up yer hole.
In America lots of people used to say that only a black man can play the blues, (many still do). My experience has always been that you rarely hear this type of talk from real musicians. It more often comes from unskilled listeners, or at best, amateur/wannabe types, and often after more than a single pint. Rubbish, IMHO.
What about the descendants of irish emigrants? It has to in their blood to? And the relation is strong to descendants of celtic peoples in France, Spain, Scotland and Wales. And the scandinavian vikings brought home irsh people as slaves, probably some irish blood in scandinavian vains too.
All that's in your blood is red cells, white cells, platelets and plasma. Any putative genetic link between where you were born and liking jigs and reels is bordering on racism as it implies that as only "Celts" can feel the soul or whatever piffle, therefore non celts can't appreciate the music. All of that is no more than a myth.
The blatant proliferation of Irish Country & Western music makes this old racist and supremacist argument completely ridiculous.
Irish people...in Ireland...playing American Country & Western music...everybody got that now?
Oh, then there were the four lads from Dublin who liked to play American Rock and Roll...what were they called again? U something?
So to answer the question "Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?" the answer is "No, you just need to be born."
As for "A lot of music is in the heart/soul generation to generation" the Irish Diaspora everywhere on the planet is notorious for maintaining their Irish identity, heritage, and yes, heaven forbid, their music, generation after generation after generation...
Why would a perfectly good white person want to play the blues ? If you want to complain about something its all summed up in Country Music's top 40.. Im sorry ..Is that a tear in yer beer...?
hardee har...
TOMMYB - Somebody's butt is getting kicked here. I do not know what your friend said or if he is a racist. There has to be some heritage because it is "traditional". It can be passed on to anyone who is receptive.You said you were in a town with many tourists. Sometimes there is a dilemma between preserving your heritage & sharing it with everyone. If your friend was being exclusive I do not support his argument. If he was merely lamenting a dwindling appreciation of music his argument might have some merit. I was fortunate in Ireland because I saw so many children, & thrilled adults,(Willy Clancy Summer School 2002) who were more thrilled with music then I have ever seen. Still it was from the strong sense of the community through a shared music. I never felt excluded for being a yank. Plenty of ribbing but never exclusion. Your friend obviously accepted your playing of ITM.
Isn't this a circular argument? I mean, you can't sound more Irish than an Irishman, correct? I think Ireland and other celtic countries have generously shared their music with the world, expecting many of us to emulate. I would say that many attempts at this music are a great tribute but not a legacy or revival. Likewise, I reserve a special distinction for natives and descendants of this music, and glad to see it.
Jim I see what you are saying this is getting slippery. TOMMYB what is the town & the name of the pub you were in. We have to call & get their input. Oh by the way there are some very heartfelt pipers in Japan who may well rival the Irish.
haa ha. When you say "Eire", is that the Free State definition, or the 32-counties one which would thus include the Shankill Road? Don't hear of many jigs or reels from there.
"Any putative genetic link between where you were born and liking jigs and reels is bordering on racism.."
Very true. We also now know (there has been a splash about it in the media recently) that genetically there is only the minute variation between Irish and English that would naturally arise from their small separation; genetically, the Irish have more connection to the main British island than to the other people of "celtic" culture (whatever that is - but that's a more complex issue.)
Not to forget that most Irish of older generations prefer the Irish incarnation of C&W to ITM, and the kids basically go for the same pop as kids do anywhere.
I am not Irish, instead German. Respectfully loving the music. I whish I were more handsome, more intelligent, had stronger sense of houmour. And I whish I had a fullblown Irish pedigree. ;o) And a million other things.
Lucky those who learn the music along their families, neighbours, etc., but, should we lovers of the music really stop learning, playing, comparting ITM and miss all the fun?
No Sir, with full respect. We'd then betray our own hearts.
Boy, this is gonna disqualify a lot of good players- Kevin Burke, Randall Bays, Brian Conway, Eileen Ivers, Dale Russ.... and that's just a few of the Fiddlers, never mind other instruments.
i found out about my irish/appalachian genealogy after falling like a ton o'bricks for itm & oldtime and i love the fact that it has turned out to be part of my heritage [i'm swedish also, and seem to fly like a homing pigeon to anything modal minor, including scandinavian, middle-eastern, india, etc].....but i'm with crookedtune & pb.....the being-born-there thing is an advantage only in terms of how exposure helps with learning. the having-it-in-your-genes thing is delightful from a poetic/metaphoric standpoint, but irrelevant.....it's having it in your soul that counts. i just watched on youtube a really cool three part [each part is about 10 minutes] interview with dave alvin, the wonderful roots player & songwriter of blues & roots country. it is part of a series called "finding the blues." he and his brother phil alvin, who were in the early 80s the rockabilly/blues band called the blasters, can justifiably be called blues men. and he talks wonderfully about these issues. this tiny series includes blues greats white & black, including edgar winter. dave alvin's segments are #11, #12, & #13.....there is also a white blues man in his 50s or so in my city who went to the delta and lived in muddy waters' house with waters and a bunch of older blues men as a 17 or 18 year old.....this guy (i can find his name if anybody wants iti) has a wonderful quote to the effect that what talent really is, is the passion and devotion and love that keeps you hanging in there long enough to learn and play deeply! and i believe this goes for the "being born there" thing as well.......i believe patrick ourceau might second that one!
Hey Brotherstorm, you wrote - "I wish I had a fullblown Irish pedigree." Listen mate, don't worry about that nonsense, ....... hasn't this fellow got a "fullblown Irish pedigree" & sure, he can't play a feckin note!
But seriously why would a person HAVE to be born in Ireland in order to get the culture?
Now I can see that living there for some time at least would provide the individual with a bit of a brogue in his/her ear.
Hmm yet today there are dozens of superb ITM performers who barely stayed in Ireland at all! And dare I say it, maybe just maybe that's what makes their music so fresh, so interesting?
So to the question I would say definitely might be a help but it is not necessary.
Danny writes: "I'd never heard the term ITM before I came on this site. I'm sure a lot of people from Ireland, and many players, possibly many good ones, haven't heard of it either. Imagine going into a pub in Clare and saying "do they play ITM in here?" Ye'd get yer flute rammed up yer hole."
Danny, have you ever hear of acronyms? Maybe there's a website where you'll learn about that too, but for now I will offer this explanation.
An acronym is a word formed from the initials or other parts of several words, for example, “NATO,” from the initial letters of “North Atlantic Treaty Organization.” When people are entering comments in a discussion forum they wouldn't want to write out “North Atlantic Treaty Organization” every time they referred to it. The same is true with "Irish traditional music.” But the "ITM" acronym is something you would only use in a discussion forum such as this, or for any sort of writing about Irish traditional music, but it wouldn't make sense if you said it in a pub.
If you're worried about your flute being shoved where the sun doesn't shine, I doubt anyone is going to get worked up enough to do that just because you used an acronym. They would think you were odd perhaps, but they would have no reason to become violent over it… would they? Perhaps you’re being a wee bit paranoid? Maybe you should forget about it... try playing a litlle ITM to relax your nerves.
To be born in Ireland isn't an advantage at all, simply because the traditional music isn't well-received or heard very often there. Irish people who were born and raised outside their native homeland have much stronger sense of identity. In fact, you have more chance to be exposed to the traditional music in the Irish communities in England.
Here's an interesting comment from Kevin Crawford: "When you're born and living in England, you sometimes feel your music may be a bit inferior to what's coming out of Ireland, and you may not think you're as good as the musicians there. But, funny enough, one of the reasons the music is so strong in England and in the U.S. is that you work twice as hard as it because you feel you have to."
Whereas if you said NATO in normal conversation if you said ITM they most certainly would think you were odd. You know I was joking when suggested where someone might shove your flute. Speaking of paranoia, why did you think I was referring to you Jack? The thought never crossed my mind. Just the anatomical possibility of a flute, not another instrument.
Anyway, swiftly moving on, as I'm not wishing to get bogged down in another episode of trench warfare for which this site is laterally becoming infamous, I'd only like to register one last thought on this one - all those people who whine and drone on about respecting the tradition, yet they're easily prepared to reduce a whole tradition to "an acronym" whoo-hoo! three letters. Yeah right.
Button, you said - "But the "ITM" acronym is something you would only use in a discussion forum such as this, or for any sort of writing about Irish traditional music ...... " I might have agreed with you in the past, but nowadays you get plenty folks who are quite happy to make those dreaded " .. " signs with their fingers, to emphasise a word or phrase in speech, so I wouldn't be so sure that there aren't some folks out there who are actually use ITM in their language!
also - "but it wouldn't make sense if you said it in a pub." Probably not, but folks don't seem to mind how stupid they look putting those " .. " marks around their speech!
Aye, it's a funny old World right enough.
Meanwhile back at the topic .......
I can't believe folks are actually discussing this. I mean to say, what difference can it make, we've all, already been born so we can't exactly hop back inside & ask to be born again, can we?
Oooops that might open a whole can of worms on a religious front & I confess, I know absolutely nothing about born again Christians, but it does make you wonder, what if ...............................
Although, perhaps there are folks on here who are so, so, so keen on their children getting the best possible start in ITM that they would actually contemplate moving to Ireland, just to ensure that they would become better ITM-ers!
Imagine people that move to certain places in the States where beauty pagents are plentiful for their beloved kids to join in.
I don't think that would happen.
Some notable once said "just because a kitten may be born in a stable it doesn't make it a horse". You've only got to look at musicians like Kevin Burke, John Carthy, Kevin Crawford, Isaac Alderson,etc to see the nonsense of the argument that you have to be born in Éire. And does this mean that people born north of the border are no good either!
Ben, et al., ITM would be called an acronym by many people, but I suppose if you split hairs it's really an abbreviation. But Ben, are you implying that there was something wrong with my use of the word "allegory"?
Er, the distinction between an acronym and an abbreviation is pretty clear...
And I know very well what an allegory is, Ben. You're probably too young to remember. I had one in the 70s and I had nothing but trouble with the suspension, clutch and alternator, not to speak of rust. They were very nearly as bad as those Morris Mourinhos.
Maybe it's clear where you're from, Steve, but around here I've heard people incorrectly say that things like PTA (Parent Teachers Association) for example, are acronyms. But they're just abbreviations as you have pointed out. The point is that using it is no cause to shove someone's flute up their arse.
Yeah, Steve, know what you mean. I had a Morris 1800 ("the land crab") so don't talk to me about alternators! Or ball joints, or track-rod ends or ...
A metaphor is where you put something in place of the thing - and suggestive of the thing - you're really talking about, so, if you were to say that reading from dots is a bit like cooking, for instance.
The word 'allegory', whilst it can mean "an extended metaphor" accoring to the OED, is normally used for stories which are not what they seem, and where the author is really getting at something else. So, for instance, much of Swift's Gulliver's Travels is allegorical, or, I suppose more correctly, satire in allegorical form. But, in normal use, an "allegory" would have to be a story, not just a description of cooking.
Being 'trumped by a land crab' sounds very painful Steve or is it allegorical and are you really getting at something else?
As for the original question TOMMYB I think your friend was talking a load of codswallop IMHO.
Good one, flossie! From now on, when I've had a rough day, instead of saying "Gawd, I feel as though I've been sh*gged by a rhino," I'll say "Gawd, I feel as though I've been trumped by a land crab!"
Alliteration is all to do with sound, Ben me old fruit, not the actual structure of the written word. "...the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle" (Wilfred Owen). "In fact intact" isn't a good example, but not for the reason you describe!
I'm definitely not anywhere near the status of "Really good" compared with players who are in any country, but I was
Descended from Irish immigrants to the US (as well as English, Welsh, Scottish, French, and German immigrants)
Made/born in Germany (Sorry bowburner, I don't make your cut! )
Raised in the US, close to but not in Appalacia, in a place with a Celtic Festival once a year and then virtually no other sessions/teachers/events/any other connection to ITM, parents who don't play ITM (but are musicians and were always very interested and are suppostive)
and I still manage to find my way into the ITM "community" (somewhat), mostly by music festivals and tapes from them, recordings, and occasionally driving a long way (when my parents can). And even then, a lot of the musicians that I do know and admire have similar (ie American ish) backgrounds, and I really can't believe that for some reason that makes them worse musicians. Indeed, I agree with the Kevin Crawford quote posted up there...they(/we) do tend to be more determined!
1. Repetition of the same letter or sound at the beginning of two or more consecutive words or of words near one another;
2. Recurrence of the same consonant or of vowel sounds initially in accented syllables of verse. Early Teutonic and Anglo-Saxon poetry had alliteration as an important structural element, the technical details of which need not be detailed here. As rhyme developed, alliterative poetry died out in the Middle Ages.
Examples:
"Apt alliteration's artful aid" (Charles Churchill) - 18th c
"Fly o'er waste fens and windy fields" (Tennyson) - 19th c
"In a somer season when soft was the sonne,
I shope me in shrouds as I a shepe were." (Piers Plowman) - 14th c
Mr Hound, I think only your last example is good alliteration. The first contains three different ways of pronouncing the "a" so does not fit the bill except as the read word, which is not what alliteration is all about. The second is incomprehensible as an example of alliteration. I urgently need it explained. The last example is as excellent as the Wilfred Owen I quoted (which is from "Anthem for Doomed Youth"). Repeated vowel sounds such as "the rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain" are usually referred to as assonance. I'd write to Websters and give 'em a bollocking if I were you.
The first example ("apt alliteration ...") fits the definition because the "a" in "apt" and the first "a" in "alliteration" are very much the same sound, and they are at the beginning of two consecutive words. Don't forget that Charles Churchill, who gave us this example (I'm not sure whether he originated it) was writing and speaking in the 18th century, and pronunciation then wasn't the same as it is today. Anyway, today it varies just as much from place to place and person to person as it did then.
Churchill doubtless thought his quotation was a good and striking play on words and sounds, which it is. "Apt alliteration's artful aid" has long been a most important tool in the hands of the newspaper headline editor and the advertising agency's copywriter.
The second example by Tennyson has its alliteration in the initial "f" of three words near to each other, and the "w" sound starting off two other words that are also near each other, all within seven words - again fitting the definition, but this time with alliteration of initial consonants, or a semi-consonant such as the initial "w".
In the Piers Plowman example, which is one of the truly great poems of the fourteenth century, we have four initial "s" sounds in the first line, and three initial "sh" sounds in the second line.
"The rain in Spain ..." is of course an example of assonance and not alliteration because the "ai" vowel sounds are not initial and are in the middle of the words. It is not referred to under "alliteration" in my copy of Webster (2nd unabridged edition).
That was interesting.
RE over a pint, that could mean 1-20 just an expression. It could mean that was the topic during that round.
2 That chap Key Maniac Lad has anger management issues !3 I only used ITM cos it's used on this site.
Thought it was an interesting discussion and this is a discussion forum
Eire is the correct/legal name for my country and you chould respect my right to use Danny!
There is some substance to this question. I from that far western county known as Massachusetts. So we are well grounded in visitng Paddys. But I've always notice the Irish nationals always play better stronger rolls on the flute and fiddle. They also tap there feet differently. They hold up there foot and strike down on the ball of there foot. While the rest of use anchor on the heel and tap down wit hthe ball.
I'm dead serious about the rolls though. Must be that they are all Coltaise borg.
Surprised that no one's brought up the fact that immigration is a theme of no small number of Irish *songs* that have made their way into the tradition. So there's a sizable portion of the tradition that wouldn't even exist if it weren't for people who'd *left* (or yearned to leave) Ireland.
Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
I had a chat with a friend over a pint at a session. It was in the west of ireland and there was a lot of tourists there as well as the locals. Observing the goings on a discussion broke out. We were divided on the fact that only those born and reared on the ould sod (Ireland) can really appreciate and or play ITM. A lot of music is in the heart/soul generation to genereation. A slow air at a funeral or mighty reel after hours in the local or house is in the blood he said .....I disagreed of course and ref him to the session.org . But is there something to his arguement?
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by TOMMYB
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
If it was only 'one pint' it probably was not much of a discussion. I was not born in Ireland & perhaps cannot play Irish music nor say what is 'truly' in my heart. However I was in County Clare & it breaks my heart to say this, 'not everyone born in Ireland can really appreciate or play ITM.' Most probably do not know what ITM stands for . Still he probably has some heritage & you should listen to him. Doesn't mean his is the final voice. I do wish Ameican's could learn to simply listen. Then again the best (or worst?) heckler's I have ever heard were in Clare.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
There is nothing whatsoever in his argument. Nothing.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
There's definitely an advantage to being born in Ireland if your destiny is to play ITM, but it doesn't mean people outside of Ireland have any sort of genetic deficiency for playing it. In Ireland you are more likely to be exposed to the music at an early age instead of discovering it later in life. This would give the Irish born person an advantage, but still have nothing to do with being “Irish.” There are people outside of Ireland who have been exposed to ITM at an early age and have become top players. Granted it's harder if you discover ITM as an adult and seek to learn it, but it doesn't make it impossible.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
I'd never heard the term ITM before I came on this site. I'm sure a lot of people from Ireland, and many players, possibly many good ones, haven't heard of it either. Imagine going into a pub in Clare and saying "do they play ITM in here?" Ye'd get yer flute rammed up yer hole.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
In America lots of people used to say that only a black man can play the blues, (many still do). My experience has always been that you rarely hear this type of talk from real musicians. It more often comes from unskilled listeners, or at best, amateur/wannabe types, and often after more than a single pint. Rubbish, IMHO.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by crookedtune
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
What about the descendants of irish emigrants? It has to in their blood to? And the relation is strong to descendants of celtic peoples in France, Spain, Scotland and Wales. And the scandinavian vikings brought home irsh people as slaves, probably some irish blood in scandinavian vains too.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by TradLad
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
All that's in your blood is red cells, white cells, platelets and plasma. Any putative genetic link between where you were born and liking jigs and reels is bordering on racism as it implies that as only "Celts" can feel the soul or whatever piffle, therefore non celts can't appreciate the music. All of that is no more than a myth.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
The blatant proliferation of Irish Country & Western music makes this old racist and supremacist argument completely ridiculous.
Irish people...in Ireland...playing American Country & Western music...everybody got that now?
Oh, then there were the four lads from Dublin who liked to play American Rock and Roll...what were they called again? U something?
So to answer the question "Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?" the answer is "No, you just need to be born."
As for "A lot of music is in the heart/soul generation to generation" the Irish Diaspora everywhere on the planet is notorious for maintaining their Irish identity, heritage, and yes, heaven forbid, their music, generation after generation after generation...
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Why would a perfectly good white person want to play the blues ? If you want to complain about something its all summed up in Country Music's top 40.. Im sorry ..Is that a tear in yer beer...?
hardee har...
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by lamh trom
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
TOMMYB - Somebody's butt is getting kicked here. I do not know what your friend said or if he is a racist. There has to be some heritage because it is "traditional". It can be passed on to anyone who is receptive.You said you were in a town with many tourists. Sometimes there is a dilemma between preserving your heritage & sharing it with everyone. If your friend was being exclusive I do not support his argument. If he was merely lamenting a dwindling appreciation of music his argument might have some merit. I was fortunate in Ireland because I saw so many children, & thrilled adults,(Willy Clancy Summer School 2002) who were more thrilled with music then I have ever seen. Still it was from the strong sense of the community through a shared music. I never felt excluded for being a yank. Plenty of ribbing but never exclusion. Your friend obviously accepted your playing of ITM.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Isn't this a circular argument? I mean, you can't sound more Irish than an Irishman, correct? I think Ireland and other celtic countries have generously shared their music with the world, expecting many of us to emulate. I would say that many attempts at this music are a great tribute but not a legacy or revival. Likewise, I reserve a special distinction for natives and descendants of this music, and glad to see it.
Jim
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by jhol111964
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
My parents insist I wasn't born in error.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by drone
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Jim I see what you are saying this is getting slippery. TOMMYB what is the town & the name of the pub you were in. We have to call & get their input. Oh by the way there are some very heartfelt pipers in Japan who may well rival the Irish.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
haa ha. When you say "Eire", is that the Free State definition, or the 32-counties one which would thus include the Shankill Road? Don't hear of many jigs or reels from there.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
"Any putative genetic link between where you were born and liking jigs and reels is bordering on racism.."
Very true. We also now know (there has been a splash about it in the media recently) that genetically there is only the minute variation between Irish and English that would naturally arise from their small separation; genetically, the Irish have more connection to the main British island than to the other people of "celtic" culture (whatever that is - but that's a more complex issue.)
Not to forget that most Irish of older generations prefer the Irish incarnation of C&W to ITM, and the kids basically go for the same pop as kids do anywhere.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Surely this discussion says it all and is the definative answer to the Irish/not irish debate:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8643
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by rogfox
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
I am not Irish, instead German. Respectfully loving the music. I whish I were more handsome, more intelligent, had stronger sense of houmour. And I whish I had a fullblown Irish pedigree. ;o) And a million other things.
Lucky those who learn the music along their families, neighbours, etc., but, should we lovers of the music really stop learning, playing, comparting ITM and miss all the fun?
No Sir, with full respect. We'd then betray our own hearts.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by brotherstorm
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
I think the PB hit the nail on the head.
# Posted on March 30th 2007 by Ron P
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
With posts like this do any others on TheSession get short shrift? Like maybe a previous one with some excellent video footage?
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Not previous . . . following this one. Mine was the previous one.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Boy, this is gonna disqualify a lot of good players- Kevin Burke, Randall Bays, Brian Conway, Eileen Ivers, Dale Russ.... and that's just a few of the Fiddlers, never mind other instruments.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Murph
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Guess that answers my questions. But, hey, the Bronx isn't in Ireland?
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
...including at least one former toaiseach (sp?): De Valera. Born in New York City.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
i found out about my irish/appalachian genealogy after falling like a ton o'bricks for itm & oldtime and i love the fact that it has turned out to be part of my heritage [i'm swedish also, and seem to fly like a homing pigeon to anything modal minor, including scandinavian, middle-eastern, india, etc].....but i'm with crookedtune & pb.....the being-born-there thing is an advantage only in terms of how exposure helps with learning. the having-it-in-your-genes thing is delightful from a poetic/metaphoric standpoint, but irrelevant.....it's having it in your soul that counts. i just watched on youtube a really cool three part [each part is about 10 minutes] interview with dave alvin, the wonderful roots player & songwriter of blues & roots country. it is part of a series called "finding the blues." he and his brother phil alvin, who were in the early 80s the rockabilly/blues band called the blasters, can justifiably be called blues men. and he talks wonderfully about these issues. this tiny series includes blues greats white & black, including edgar winter. dave alvin's segments are #11, #12, & #13.....there is also a white blues man in his 50s or so in my city who went to the delta and lived in muddy waters' house with waters and a bunch of older blues men as a 17 or 18 year old.....this guy (i can find his name if anybody wants iti) has a wonderful quote to the effect that what talent really is, is the passion and devotion and love that keeps you hanging in there long enough to learn and play deeply! and i believe this goes for the "being born there" thing as well.......i believe patrick ourceau might second that one!
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
An Taoiseach
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Thank you. At least in San Diego someone is paying attention.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Hey Brotherstorm, you wrote - "I wish I had a fullblown Irish pedigree." Listen mate, don't worry about that nonsense, ....... hasn't this fellow got a "fullblown Irish pedigree" & sure, he can't play a feckin note!
http://www.hoflin.com/Online/Irish%20Wolfhound%20Musuem/Alano%20Aotearoa%20Huhu
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Huh!
But seriously why would a person HAVE to be born in Ireland in order to get the culture?
Now I can see that living there for some time at least would provide the individual with a bit of a brogue in his/her ear.
Hmm yet today there are dozens of superb ITM performers who barely stayed in Ireland at all! And dare I say it, maybe just maybe that's what makes their music so fresh, so interesting?
So to the question I would say definitely might be a help but it is not necessary.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Danny writes: "I'd never heard the term ITM before I came on this site. I'm sure a lot of people from Ireland, and many players, possibly many good ones, haven't heard of it either. Imagine going into a pub in Clare and saying "do they play ITM in here?" Ye'd get yer flute rammed up yer hole."
Danny, have you ever hear of acronyms? Maybe there's a website where you'll learn about that too, but for now I will offer this explanation.
An acronym is a word formed from the initials or other parts of several words, for example, “NATO,” from the initial letters of “North Atlantic Treaty Organization.” When people are entering comments in a discussion forum they wouldn't want to write out “North Atlantic Treaty Organization” every time they referred to it. The same is true with "Irish traditional music.” But the "ITM" acronym is something you would only use in a discussion forum such as this, or for any sort of writing about Irish traditional music, but it wouldn't make sense if you said it in a pub.
If you're worried about your flute being shoved where the sun doesn't shine, I doubt anyone is going to get worked up enough to do that just because you used an acronym. They would think you were odd perhaps, but they would have no reason to become violent over it… would they? Perhaps you’re being a wee bit paranoid? Maybe you should forget about it... try playing a litlle ITM to relax your nerves.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
TheMuse;
"Oh by the way there are some very heartfelt pipers in Japan who may well rival the Irish."
1; whats heartfelt?
2; Where? Who?
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Hey, Tommy B. I don't know who you are but you've got off very lightly here with this subject
compared to some.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
To be born in Ireland isn't an advantage at all, simply because the traditional music isn't well-received or heard very often there. Irish people who were born and raised outside their native homeland have much stronger sense of identity. In fact, you have more chance to be exposed to the traditional music in the Irish communities in England.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by slainte
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Here's an interesting comment from Kevin Crawford: "When you're born and living in England, you sometimes feel your music may be a bit inferior to what's coming out of Ireland, and you may not think you're as good as the musicians there. But, funny enough, one of the reasons the music is so strong in England and in the U.S. is that you work twice as hard as it because you feel you have to."
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by slainte
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
ITM isn't an acronym
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Whereas if you said NATO in normal conversation if you said ITM they most certainly would think you were odd. You know I was joking when suggested where someone might shove your flute. Speaking of paranoia, why did you think I was referring to you Jack? The thought never crossed my mind. Just the anatomical possibility of a flute, not another instrument.
Anyway, swiftly moving on, as I'm not wishing to get bogged down in another episode of trench warfare for which this site is laterally becoming infamous, I'd only like to register one last thought on this one - all those people who whine and drone on about respecting the tradition, yet they're easily prepared to reduce a whole tradition to "an acronym" whoo-hoo! three letters. Yeah right.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Button, you said - "But the "ITM" acronym is something you would only use in a discussion forum such as this, or for any sort of writing about Irish traditional music ...... " I might have agreed with you in the past, but nowadays you get plenty folks who are quite happy to make those dreaded " .. " signs with their fingers, to emphasise a word or phrase in speech, so I wouldn't be so sure that there aren't some folks out there who are actually use ITM in their language!
also - "but it wouldn't make sense if you said it in a pub." Probably not, but folks don't seem to mind how stupid they look putting those " .. " marks around their speech!
Aye, it's a funny old World right enough.
Meanwhile back at the topic .......
I can't believe folks are actually discussing this. I mean to say, what difference can it make, we've all, already been born so we can't exactly hop back inside & ask to be born again, can we?
Oooops that might open a whole can of worms on a religious front & I confess, I know absolutely nothing about born again Christians, but it does make you wonder, what if ...............................
Although, perhaps there are folks on here who are so, so, so keen on their children getting the best possible start in ITM that they would actually contemplate moving to Ireland, just to ensure that they would become better ITM-ers!
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Imagine people that move to certain places in the States where beauty pagents are plentiful for their beloved kids to join in.
I don't think that would happen.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Quite right, benhall. ITM is simply an abbreviation. I once had a ding-dong in A.N Other place with a chap who thought that "WTF" was an acronym!
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Thanks Steve. Buy me a pint of Doom Bar and I'll tell you what an 'allegory' is!
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Hey guys, I'm allegoric to Pollen, can I come too?
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
As in 'Pollen count' me in or 'Pollen' the other one?
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
I sometimes feel I should be doing something more useful with such a lovely sunny day ...
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
No.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by gtag
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Some notable once said "just because a kitten may be born in a stable it doesn't make it a horse". You've only got to look at musicians like Kevin Burke, John Carthy, Kevin Crawford, Isaac Alderson,etc to see the nonsense of the argument that you have to be born in Éire. And does this mean that people born north of the border are no good either!
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Ben, et al., ITM would be called an acronym by many people, but I suppose if you split hairs it's really an abbreviation. But Ben, are you implying that there was something wrong with my use of the word "allegory"?
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Er, the distinction between an acronym and an abbreviation is pretty clear...
And I know very well what an allegory is, Ben. You're probably too young to remember. I had one in the 70s and I had nothing but trouble with the suspension, clutch and alternator, not to speak of rust. They were very nearly as bad as those Morris Mourinhos.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
But I'll buy you a pint of Doom anytime, mate! All it'll cost you is the fare to Bude!
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Maybe it's clear where you're from, Steve, but around here I've heard people incorrectly say that things like PTA (Parent Teachers Association) for example, are acronyms. But they're just abbreviations as you have pointed out. The point is that using it is no cause to shove someone's flute up their arse.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
A pint of Doom eh? Sounds fateful.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Yeah, Steve, know what you mean. I had a Morris 1800 ("the land crab") so don't talk to me about alternators! Or ball joints, or track-rod ends or ...
A metaphor is where you put something in place of the thing - and suggestive of the thing - you're really talking about, so, if you were to say that reading from dots is a bit like cooking, for instance.
The word 'allegory', whilst it can mean "an extended metaphor" accoring to the OED, is normally used for stories which are not what they seem, and where the author is really getting at something else. So, for instance, much of Swift's Gulliver's Travels is allegorical, or, I suppose more correctly, satire in allegorical form. But, in normal use, an "allegory" would have to be a story, not just a description of cooking.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
... and a pint of Doom *IS* fateful, believe me ...
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Cheers, Ben. Sounds like you've had several already.
By the way, I never had an "All aggro" really (though I knew a man who did). I was lying for effect. You trumped me there with your land crab.
# Posted on March 31st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Being 'trumped by a land crab' sounds very painful Steve or is it allegorical and are you really getting at something else?
As for the original question TOMMYB I think your friend was talking a load of codswallop IMHO.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by flossie
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Oh good, then PB's Allegory Corner remains, in fact, intact.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Good one, flossie! From now on, when I've had a rough day, instead of saying "Gawd, I feel as though I've been sh*gged by a rhino," I'll say "Gawd, I feel as though I've been trumped by a land crab!"
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
"in fact, intact." - surely that belongs in your *Alliteration Corner* PB?
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Or even in a little poem with virginity as its main theme.
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
"in fact, intact" isn't alliteration
(Tee hee)
... but really ... it isn't ...
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
infact intact ....... now it is! Really .... it is ....
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
We-ll-ll-ll ... it *might* be ... if "infact" was one word. But it isn't.
Thankyou (
)
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Reared in Ireland? In our session we just check if people have "Made in Ireland" stamped on their rear before we let them in. Easy peasy!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by bowburner
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Alliteration is all to do with sound, Ben me old fruit, not the actual structure of the written word. "...the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle" (Wilfred Owen). "In fact intact" isn't a good example, but not for the reason you describe!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
I'm definitely not anywhere near the status of "Really good" compared with players who are in any country, but I was
Descended from Irish immigrants to the US (as well as English, Welsh, Scottish, French, and German immigrants)
)
Made/born in Germany (Sorry bowburner, I don't make your cut!
Raised in the US, close to but not in Appalacia, in a place with a Celtic Festival once a year and then virtually no other sessions/teachers/events/any other connection to ITM, parents who don't play ITM (but are musicians and were always very interested and are suppostive)
and I still manage to find my way into the ITM "community" (somewhat), mostly by music festivals and tapes from them, recordings, and occasionally driving a long way (when my parents can). And even then, a lot of the musicians that I do know and admire have similar (ie American ish) backgrounds, and I really can't believe that for some reason that makes them worse musicians. Indeed, I agree with the Kevin Crawford quote posted up there...they(/we) do tend to be more determined!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by possumawesome
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
My irish blood is thin, and my musical tallent is even thinner. However, I have an Irish heart!
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by Black Tom
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
"Alliteration"
The definitions in Webster's Dictionary are:
1. Repetition of the same letter or sound at the beginning of two or more consecutive words or of words near one another;
2. Recurrence of the same consonant or of vowel sounds initially in accented syllables of verse. Early Teutonic and Anglo-Saxon poetry had alliteration as an important structural element, the technical details of which need not be detailed here. As rhyme developed, alliterative poetry died out in the Middle Ages.
Examples:
"Apt alliteration's artful aid" (Charles Churchill) - 18th c
"Fly o'er waste fens and windy fields" (Tennyson) - 19th c
"In a somer season when soft was the sonne,
I shope me in shrouds as I a shepe were." (Piers Plowman) - 14th c
# Posted on April 1st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Mr Hound, I think only your last example is good alliteration. The first contains three different ways of pronouncing the "a" so does not fit the bill except as the read word, which is not what alliteration is all about. The second is incomprehensible as an example of alliteration. I urgently need it explained. The last example is as excellent as the Wilfred Owen I quoted (which is from "Anthem for Doomed Youth"). Repeated vowel sounds such as "the rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain" are usually referred to as assonance. I'd write to Websters and give 'em a bollocking if I were you.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
four different ways.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Four, eh? Please explain! We talk proper where we come from.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
The first example ("apt alliteration ...") fits the definition because the "a" in "apt" and the first "a" in "alliteration" are very much the same sound, and they are at the beginning of two consecutive words. Don't forget that Charles Churchill, who gave us this example (I'm not sure whether he originated it) was writing and speaking in the 18th century, and pronunciation then wasn't the same as it is today. Anyway, today it varies just as much from place to place and person to person as it did then.
Churchill doubtless thought his quotation was a good and striking play on words and sounds, which it is. "Apt alliteration's artful aid" has long been a most important tool in the hands of the newspaper headline editor and the advertising agency's copywriter.
The second example by Tennyson has its alliteration in the initial "f" of three words near to each other, and the "w" sound starting off two other words that are also near each other, all within seven words - again fitting the definition, but this time with alliteration of initial consonants, or a semi-consonant such as the initial "w".
In the Piers Plowman example, which is one of the truly great poems of the fourteenth century, we have four initial "s" sounds in the first line, and three initial "sh" sounds in the second line.
"The rain in Spain ..." is of course an example of assonance and not alliteration because the "ai" vowel sounds are not initial and are in the middle of the words. It is not referred to under "alliteration" in my copy of Webster (2nd unabridged edition).
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Boy, am I glad I set this off ...
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
A peck of pickled pepper Peter Piper picked
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
That was interesting.
RE over a pint, that could mean 1-20 just an expression. It could mean that was the topic during that round.
2 That chap Key Maniac Lad has anger management issues !3 I only used ITM cos it's used on this site.
Thought it was an interesting discussion and this is a discussion forum
Eire is the correct/legal name for my country and you chould respect my right to use Danny!
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by TOMMYB
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Hee hee....
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
"Hee hee..." - is that alliteration?
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
There is some substance to this question. I from that far western county known as Massachusetts. So we are well grounded in visitng Paddys. But I've always notice the Irish nationals always play better stronger rolls on the flute and fiddle. They also tap there feet differently. They hold up there foot and strike down on the ball of there foot. While the rest of use anchor on the heel and tap down wit hthe ball.
I'm dead serious about the rolls though. Must be that they are all Coltaise borg.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by saltcast
Re: Do you need to be born/reared in Eire?
Surprised that no one's brought up the fact that immigration is a theme of no small number of Irish *songs* that have made their way into the tradition. So there's a sizable portion of the tradition that wouldn't even exist if it weren't for people who'd *left* (or yearned to leave) Ireland.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious