Hello all..If I record myself on minidisc while I'm playing an air there is a perception gap between the sweetness I feel while playing the tune and the sweetness I hear listening to the recording. (This is assuming that every thing is in tune) In order to get the tune to sound "emotive" on the recording I have to play way "over the top" so that it sounds excessively syrupy to me while I'm playing. Does this happen to anyone else ? Trevor- since you seem to play two bowed instruments- I wondered if you have any thoughts on bowing dynamics for playing airs.
Hi Bob!...is this a difference between what you feel you're playing and what you hear you're playing? What you hear is what everyone else does (apart from the scrapings)!
yes,what you hear under your ear (i'm assuming fiddle as from your profile) and what may or may not carry to a person next to or far away from you may well be very different.
it's a fine line to tread but why not experiment by recording yourself WAY over the top and then compere with what you think is tasteful and see what results.
you might be surprised.
best wishes
ps: of course there's cheese,and then again,there's cheese - good luck!
You've found out that what the player hears is not what the audience hears! This is a lesson that all players, solo and otherwise, should learn early in their careers.
The fiddle player's left ear is very close to the instrument and hears everything - the bow scraping, its faint high-pitched hiss when you play quietly, the noise of the fingers negotiating their way round the strings, the sound of a finger coming down onto the finger board, stray unwanted notes when the bow accidentally touches an adjacent string, etc. When you're playing on your own in a quiet room these unwanted noises seem excessively obstrusive and you unconsciously tend to play down your tone. However, most of these noises, especially the scrapes and hisses, don't travel and are generally inaudible to an audience. If you've already tried to reduce these noises at your end the result will be that the audience won't receive the volume dynamic you intended.
When I was in my teens I was playing cello in the local youth orchestra and we had just finished a final rehearsal for a concert that evening in the hall where we rehearsed. My cello teacher (who was also the conductor) asked two or three of us cellists, who were also his pupils, to stay behind for half an hour. He used this time to teach us the technique of projecting our tone individually to the back of this 3000 seater auditorium so that we could hear the sound coming back to the stage. Basically, he was showing us how to generate a level of attack and power with the bow that we had never experienced before - and we also heard bow noises we had never heard before.
Exactly the same applies to the violin. A year or so later I went to a concert in the same hall where Yehudi Menuhin was performing a concerto with a big orchestra. The 3000-seater hall was packed. At all times you could hear Mehuhin clear as a bell projecting his tone above the orchestra, and this was without mics. If you were two or three feet from him you would probably have heard all sorts of noise coming from his instrument, but, as I said, that noise attenuates very rapidly.
So, ignore these bow hisses and scrapes. They are a guarantee that you're on the way to learning how to project your tone. I suggest you go with your fiddle and a musical friend to a largish hall - the average church or school hall will do fine - you stand at one end and play, and your friend stands at the other end and tells you what sort of sound he's hearing. I think you'll find that you'll have to over-play (or it seems like it to you) in order for your friend to report that you sound good. Play at normal practice level and your tone won't carry. And don't forget that an audience absorbs quite a lot of sound and reverberation, so you've got to be prepared to overcome that hurdle as well.
The other major point I want to make is that it is very difficult for a musician to listen to himself objectively - as an audience hears him. I'm not talking so much about tone production here as things like intonation, timing, lift, tempo, rhythm, and general playing and interpretation of the tune. The problem is that the brain tends to ignore the ear and reports to you that you doing the ideal playing that you want to achieve but aren't in fact. This is where a recording machine is useful, and, even more usefully, an experienced musician listener who isn't afraid to pull his punches and who can offer advice that the recording machine can't. When you can really listen to yourself objectively then you'll make rapid progress.
Hi.. Greenman.. I think its more of a difference between what you feel you're playing and what others feel that you're playing. I'm going to try trevors suggestion with a friend in the back of the hall and see what happens. Good idea Big Dave. There going to be some more bowing practice before I can play WAY over the top but it will probably be time well spent. Mark ..I'm just recording straight into the minidisc using the Sony mike (ECM-MS907) so there's no EQ to adjust. I'm constantly amazed by the performance of this mike
though. I highly recommend it. I've never had a more useful music tool than the minidisc.
Trevor.. many thanks for the reply. I've heard of people playing with a earplug in their left hear to suppress the string noise and let them hear more of the room ambience. I tried this and it seems to work but it's not something I'll do all the time. As you say in your last paragraph it is very hard to be objective about your own playing. I'll be doing lots more work with the minidisc.
I think it's partly the equivalent of hating the way your voice sounds when recorded. *You* don't think you sound that way to everyone, and yet, listen to everyone else speak on the recording, and their voices sound accurate to you. You may not be able to alter the actual sound of your voice that much, but you can change the quality and emotion of your voice...including projecting it differently. I think the instrument is the same. I've gotten a lot out of recording my playing, playing it back, and listening to it as others do. You pick up on little things about your playing that you miss otherwise.
I think you're right Katie. When I'm playing a tune there are usually a few particular things about that tune that I'm paying attention to and that makes it difficult to address all the other things like timing, lift, tempo etc. that trevor mentions, while I'm playing. Listening to the recording afterwards brings home deficiencies in these other aspects. I've been trying Big Dave's idea of grossly overplaying and while it strains my bow technique to the limit I believe it will pay some dividends shortly.
Bob
Perception of sweetness
Perception of sweetness
Hello all..If I record myself on minidisc while I'm playing an air there is a perception gap between the sweetness I feel while playing the tune and the sweetness I hear listening to the recording. (This is assuming that every thing is in tune)
In order to get the tune to sound "emotive" on the recording I have to play way "over the top" so that it sounds excessively syrupy to me while I'm playing. Does this happen to anyone else ? Trevor- since you seem to play two bowed instruments- I wondered if you have any thoughts on bowing dynamics for playing airs.
Thanks,
Bob McIvor
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by bmcivor
Re: Perception of sweetness
Hi Bob!...is this a difference between what you feel you're playing and what you hear you're playing? What you hear is what everyone else does (apart from the scrapings)!
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by greenman
Re: sweetness and light
yes,what you hear under your ear (i'm assuming fiddle as from your profile) and what may or may not carry to a person next to or far away from you may well be very different.
it's a fine line to tread but why not experiment by recording yourself WAY over the top and then compere with what you think is tasteful and see what results.
you might be surprised.
best wishes
ps: of course there's cheese,and then again,there's cheese - good luck!
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Perception of sweetness
I Still Think the Mics Tear up the sound somewhat. Try two Mics and take the high end EQ all the way down.
Mark
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Mark Cordova
Re: Perception of sweetness
Hello Bob,
You've found out that what the player hears is not what the audience hears! This is a lesson that all players, solo and otherwise, should learn early in their careers.
The fiddle player's left ear is very close to the instrument and hears everything - the bow scraping, its faint high-pitched hiss when you play quietly, the noise of the fingers negotiating their way round the strings, the sound of a finger coming down onto the finger board, stray unwanted notes when the bow accidentally touches an adjacent string, etc. When you're playing on your own in a quiet room these unwanted noises seem excessively obstrusive and you unconsciously tend to play down your tone. However, most of these noises, especially the scrapes and hisses, don't travel and are generally inaudible to an audience. If you've already tried to reduce these noises at your end the result will be that the audience won't receive the volume dynamic you intended.
When I was in my teens I was playing cello in the local youth orchestra and we had just finished a final rehearsal for a concert that evening in the hall where we rehearsed. My cello teacher (who was also the conductor) asked two or three of us cellists, who were also his pupils, to stay behind for half an hour. He used this time to teach us the technique of projecting our tone individually to the back of this 3000 seater auditorium so that we could hear the sound coming back to the stage. Basically, he was showing us how to generate a level of attack and power with the bow that we had never experienced before - and we also heard bow noises we had never heard before.
Exactly the same applies to the violin. A year or so later I went to a concert in the same hall where Yehudi Menuhin was performing a concerto with a big orchestra. The 3000-seater hall was packed. At all times you could hear Mehuhin clear as a bell projecting his tone above the orchestra, and this was without mics. If you were two or three feet from him you would probably have heard all sorts of noise coming from his instrument, but, as I said, that noise attenuates very rapidly.
So, ignore these bow hisses and scrapes. They are a guarantee that you're on the way to learning how to project your tone. I suggest you go with your fiddle and a musical friend to a largish hall - the average church or school hall will do fine - you stand at one end and play, and your friend stands at the other end and tells you what sort of sound he's hearing. I think you'll find that you'll have to over-play (or it seems like it to you) in order for your friend to report that you sound good. Play at normal practice level and your tone won't carry. And don't forget that an audience absorbs quite a lot of sound and reverberation, so you've got to be prepared to overcome that hurdle as well.
The other major point I want to make is that it is very difficult for a musician to listen to himself objectively - as an audience hears him. I'm not talking so much about tone production here as things like intonation, timing, lift, tempo, rhythm, and general playing and interpretation of the tune. The problem is that the brain tends to ignore the ear and reports to you that you doing the ideal playing that you want to achieve but aren't in fact. This is where a recording machine is useful, and, even more usefully, an experienced musician listener who isn't afraid to pull his punches and who can offer advice that the recording machine can't. When you can really listen to yourself objectively then you'll make rapid progress.
trevor
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Perception of sweetness
Hi.. Greenman.. I think its more of a difference between what you feel you're playing and what others feel that you're playing. I'm going to try trevors suggestion with a friend in the back of the hall and see what happens. Good idea Big Dave. There going to be some more bowing practice before I can play WAY over the top but it will probably be time well spent. Mark ..I'm just recording straight into the minidisc using the Sony mike (ECM-MS907) so there's no EQ to adjust. I'm constantly amazed by the performance of this mike
though. I highly recommend it. I've never had a more useful music tool than the minidisc.
Trevor.. many thanks for the reply. I've heard of people playing with a earplug in their left hear to suppress the string noise and let them hear more of the room ambience. I tried this and it seems to work but it's not something I'll do all the time. As you say in your last paragraph it is very hard to be objective about your own playing. I'll be doing lots more work with the minidisc.
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by bmcivor
Re: Perception of sweetness
I think it's partly the equivalent of hating the way your voice sounds when recorded. *You* don't think you sound that way to everyone, and yet, listen to everyone else speak on the recording, and their voices sound accurate to you. You may not be able to alter the actual sound of your voice that much, but you can change the quality and emotion of your voice...including projecting it differently. I think the instrument is the same. I've gotten a lot out of recording my playing, playing it back, and listening to it as others do. You pick up on little things about your playing that you miss otherwise.
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: Perception of sweetness
I think you're right Katie. When I'm playing a tune there are usually a few particular things about that tune that I'm paying attention to and that makes it difficult to address all the other things like timing, lift, tempo etc. that trevor mentions, while I'm playing. Listening to the recording afterwards brings home deficiencies in these other aspects. I've been trying Big Dave's idea of grossly overplaying and while it strains my bow technique to the limit I believe it will pay some dividends shortly.
Bob
# Posted on January 22nd 2003 by bmcivor