At my local session there is currently a debate about Folk-Rock, Our group of musicians is split right down the middle on weather Folk Rock, has done ITM a service or a dis service, What do you think?
I dont consider them the same at all. I like it for what it is as long as it doesnt come into a traditional session thats fine. I quite like the Pogues and the Waterboys and all that kind of thing. Though def not in a session. I dont believe its done trad a diservice cause they are nothing alike.
I suspect that it may lead people to ITM that would otherwise have no concept of it's existence (besides perhaps the wretched Danny Boy that flogs us on St. Pat's day and makes people to whom I've just revealed a passion for ITM to look at me like a have a third eye). Perhaps there are those that get hooked on the sound and begin searching for the truer or older form, though I actually came from the other direction.
I couldn't agree more with bb regarding it's exclusion from trad sessions.
I'm more familiar with 'folk,' rather than 'folk-rock' per se, meaning more acoustic singer-songwriters, & I would say the influence is tremendous. My father owns a recording studio, & he recently wrote a love song, a duet for wedding vows, & he says before he plays it for me, well the rhythm's a bit interesting, not like anything I've done before. Come to find out it's a slip jig in 9/8 with very strong ITM influence, which must have seeped into his songwriting through osmosis, b/c he's certainly not much a fan of ITM outright. Many of his guest artists of late have included uillean pipes & fiddle players for tracks. One of his friends recently wrote a parody called "Starbucks of the County Down" where the Colleen in question was a barista who brewed a mean espresso, & needless to say it's a big hit when he plays this at coffee houses. Another artist did a wonderful rendition of 'The Ash Grove'... In any case, maybe it's more b/c my perception level has been elevated in the past few years b/c of my own rising commitment, but I do think ITM is being promoted in acoustic circles in a big way, at least in the US. I think it's totally great that an acoustic instrumentalist can be influenced by ITM, even to the extent of maybe picking up a second instrument, or delving more deeply in the tradition and/or trying their hand at a session. I vote for 'service.' I think. But come to think of it.. nah, the tradition is too strong I think to be mucked around by a few amateurs. The real sessions will persevere, even in the face of watered down tunes made more mainstream. Uh I hope.
Daffyd, there would appear to be more than one way to describe this genre. On one hand folk-rock could mean horslips, lindisfarne and lots of other *twee* bands who took songs and inserted a HORRID tune or two and plugged in a mandolin or fiddle with a screaming amp to drown out the guitars and drums and bagpipes
But I am positive that a lot of musicians out there owe their interest in ITM to groups successfully combining folk music and rock rhythms and instruments: 'breakthrough' acts such as Clannad, Planxty, Bothy Band, Moving Hearts, Lunasa and all the current "Supergroups". These guys (and gals) were passionate about their music and wanted to expose their culture to the wider world. Sorry bb...I don't think that they are all that different. Guess we have to agree to disagree again ;o)
How is is it greenwiggle that i havent broken my bow over your head in all these years?? I hope you agree that folk/rock doesnt really have a place in a serious trad session.
bb, Is that a session of Serious Irish Musicians Playing Esoteric Reels (SIMPER)? Come on now. Next you'll be telling me that certain instruments and tunes are not welcome at a serious session. Sorry - you already did that on another thread huh? Music is only a part of the session experience, the big part granted- but no seisun is complete without a bit of hilarity and you can't have that without flexibility and acceptance. I 'm seriously thinking of nominating you for Chair of the N.I.M.S. (Not In MY Session)
I should be grateful you haven't hit me with your rythym stik-it would be a waste of a perfectly good bow!
folk rock has been an important step, it brought a lot of us to ITM in the 70s even before Planxty and the Bothy Band.. listen to the sets of tunes on Steeleye Span 'Ten man mop' (the set of reels is still one of the best i've ever heard) and on Fairport Convention Full house..
I think Folk Rock is a very important part of the tradition, not only because it is probably 80% responsible for the level of interest in the music today, but because it is still an important part of the place "Music" (in general) plays in the Irish cultural landscape. I really wish so many contributors would'nt insist on compartmentalising music into "little clubs". Nobody can measure or accurately determine where/when music crosses from one "genre" to another. Be open-minded, accept change, listen to Donal Lunny's vast body of music, ---------------be converted ................................
In my view the tradition of Irish music is robust enough nowadays to survive without folk-rock. Sessions and so on are living expressions of the music, but it wasn't always the case. I read somewhere that the first Fleadheanna (forgive the spelling) in the fifties were attended by just a few hundred people. Now look at the All-Ireland Fleadh. Also, time and time again, speaking to Irish people from the older generation, they tell me that the music nearly died in the fifties in Ireland, only kept alive by enthusiasts, sort of "tune-spotters". The advent of folk-rock did breath much-needed life back into the music by generating lots of interest. But it has now recovered sufficiently to stand on its own.
For the record I personally am not a fan at all of folk-rock (but appreciate its role), hence you find me droning on on this site!
I agree with Schy, you cannot underestimate the power of even the cheesiest folk-rock to awaken the listener's imagination and send him or her swimming up stream in search of the purer stuff. I read that Altan's late flautist, Frankie Kennedy, came to ITM through listening to Horslips. It's an image I cling to anytime people abroad mention Riverdance et al.
Thanks guys, I'm going away for the next week, so wont be able to join in discussions, but I look forward to more debates on my return. Thanks for all the input, I'll take what you've said down to my session and show it to the lads
This is very similar to some threads at mandolincafe.com, discussing the positive and negative effects of Bluegrass-influenced music (e.g., Nickel Creek), as well as the American recording industry's jumping onto the BG Bandwagon following the success of the old-timey soundtrack "O Brother...".
In either case (ITM or BG), trad-influenced pop may give the uninitiated an improper impression of what the real thing is all about. But on the other hand, it may also lead several others towards a deeper appreciation of the real thing.
Note: while the hardcore BG-traditionalist may not be as open-minded about this subject as those posting here, they seem to agree that only pure traditional fare belongs in sessions/jams.
I came to the real thing through listening to Clannad and Patrick Ball (not folk rock, but not exactly "pure drop" either.) Yes it gave me the wrong impression of Irish music, and Yes it sent me swimming upstream to find out more. And I did. And my wrong impression was replaced with the real thing, and I am so glad for it and it may not have happened at all otherwise.
Folk-Rock
Folk-Rock
At my local session there is currently a debate about Folk-Rock, Our group of musicians is split right down the middle on weather Folk Rock, has done ITM a service or a dis service, What do you think?
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Dafydd Monks
Re: Folk-Rock
I dont consider them the same at all. I like it for what it is as long as it doesnt come into a traditional session thats fine. I quite like the Pogues and the Waterboys and all that kind of thing. Though def not in a session. I dont believe its done trad a diservice cause they are nothing alike.
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by bb
Re: Folk-Rock
I suspect that it may lead people to ITM that would otherwise have no concept of it's existence (besides perhaps the wretched Danny Boy that flogs us on St. Pat's day and makes people to whom I've just revealed a passion for ITM to look at me like a have a third eye). Perhaps there are those that get hooked on the sound and begin searching for the truer or older form, though I actually came from the other direction.
I couldn't agree more with bb regarding it's exclusion from trad sessions.
Schy
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Schy
Re: Folk-Rock
I wasn't really suggesting It's use in sessions which I disslike(Call me a pureist) but how do you think it has helped/not helped ITM on the Whole?
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Dafydd Monks
Re: Folk-Rock
I'm more familiar with 'folk,' rather than 'folk-rock' per se, meaning more acoustic singer-songwriters, & I would say the influence is tremendous. My father owns a recording studio, & he recently wrote a love song, a duet for wedding vows, & he says before he plays it for me, well the rhythm's a bit interesting, not like anything I've done before. Come to find out it's a slip jig in 9/8 with very strong ITM influence, which must have seeped into his songwriting through osmosis, b/c he's certainly not much a fan of ITM outright. Many of his guest artists of late have included uillean pipes & fiddle players for tracks. One of his friends recently wrote a parody called "Starbucks of the County Down" where the Colleen in question was a barista who brewed a mean espresso, & needless to say it's a big hit when he plays this at coffee houses. Another artist did a wonderful rendition of 'The Ash Grove'... In any case, maybe it's more b/c my perception level has been elevated in the past few years b/c of my own rising commitment, but I do think ITM is being promoted in acoustic circles in a big way, at least in the US. I think it's totally great that an acoustic instrumentalist can be influenced by ITM, even to the extent of maybe picking up a second instrument, or delving more deeply in the tradition and/or trying their hand at a session. I vote for 'service.' I think. But come to think of it.. nah, the tradition is too strong I think to be mucked around by a few amateurs. The real sessions will persevere, even in the face of watered down tunes made more mainstream. Uh I hope.
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by emily_bmore
oh yeah, ya gotta keep 'em separated.
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Folk-Rock
Now how about symphonic ITM?
NO! I'm not being serious!
trevor
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Folk-Rock
Daffyd, there would appear to be more than one way to describe this genre. On one hand folk-rock could mean horslips, lindisfarne and lots of other *twee* bands who took songs and inserted a HORRID tune or two and plugged in a mandolin or fiddle with a screaming amp to drown out the guitars and drums and bagpipes
But I am positive that a lot of musicians out there owe their interest in ITM to groups successfully combining folk music and rock rhythms and instruments: 'breakthrough' acts such as Clannad, Planxty, Bothy Band, Moving Hearts, Lunasa and all the current "Supergroups". These guys (and gals) were passionate about their music and wanted to expose their culture to the wider world. Sorry bb...I don't think that they are all that different. Guess we have to agree to disagree again ;o)
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Folk-Rock
Ah, symphonic ITM -- its been done, Trev. Ask Will about the Boston Pops doing Toss the Feathers...
zls
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Folk-Rock
How is is it greenwiggle that i havent broken my bow over your head in all these years??
I hope you agree that folk/rock doesnt really have a place in a serious trad session.
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by bb
Re: Folk-Rock
bb, Is that a session of Serious Irish Musicians Playing Esoteric Reels (SIMPER)? Come on now. Next you'll be telling me that certain instruments and tunes are not welcome at a serious session. Sorry - you already did that on another thread huh? Music is only a part of the session experience, the big part granted- but no seisun is complete without a bit of hilarity and you can't have that without flexibility and acceptance. I 'm seriously thinking of nominating you for Chair of the N.I.M.S. (Not In MY Session)
I should be grateful you haven't hit me with your rythym stik-it would be a waste of a perfectly good bow!
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Folk-Rock
folk rock has been an important step, it brought a lot of us to ITM in the 70s even before Planxty and the Bothy Band.. listen to the sets of tunes on Steeleye Span 'Ten man mop' (the set of reels is still one of the best i've ever heard) and on Fairport Convention Full house..
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by paul95
Re: Folk-Rock
I think Folk Rock is a very important part of the tradition, not only because it is probably 80% responsible for the level of interest in the music today, but because it is still an important part of the place "Music" (in general) plays in the Irish cultural landscape. I really wish so many contributors would'nt insist on compartmentalising music into "little clubs". Nobody can measure or accurately determine where/when music crosses from one "genre" to another. Be open-minded, accept change, listen to Donal Lunny's vast body of music, ---------------be converted ................................
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Backer
Re: Folk-Rock
In my view the tradition of Irish music is robust enough nowadays to survive without folk-rock. Sessions and so on are living expressions of the music, but it wasn't always the case. I read somewhere that the first Fleadheanna (forgive the spelling) in the fifties were attended by just a few hundred people. Now look at the All-Ireland Fleadh. Also, time and time again, speaking to Irish people from the older generation, they tell me that the music nearly died in the fifties in Ireland, only kept alive by enthusiasts, sort of "tune-spotters". The advent of folk-rock did breath much-needed life back into the music by generating lots of interest. But it has now recovered sufficiently to stand on its own.
For the record I personally am not a fan at all of folk-rock (but appreciate its role), hence you find me droning on on this site!
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Folk-Rock
I begun to play ITM in the 70s with the Steeleye Span LPs.
But I'm not sure that is good for ITM. ( I mean my contribute )
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by gian marco
Re: Folk-Rock
I agree with Schy, you cannot underestimate the power of even the cheesiest folk-rock to awaken the listener's imagination and send him or her swimming up stream in search of the purer stuff. I read that Altan's late flautist, Frankie Kennedy, came to ITM through listening to Horslips. It's an image I cling to anytime people abroad mention Riverdance et al.
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by sergeant fox
Re: Folk-Rock
Thanks guys, I'm going away for the next week, so wont be able to join in discussions, but I look forward to more debates on my return. Thanks for all the input, I'll take what you've said down to my session and show it to the lads
# Posted on January 22nd 2003 by Dafydd Monks
Re: Folk-Rock
This is very similar to some threads at mandolincafe.com, discussing the positive and negative effects of Bluegrass-influenced music (e.g., Nickel Creek), as well as the American recording industry's jumping onto the BG Bandwagon following the success of the old-timey soundtrack "O Brother...".
In either case (ITM or BG), trad-influenced pop may give the uninitiated an improper impression of what the real thing is all about. But on the other hand, it may also lead several others towards a deeper appreciation of the real thing.
Note: while the hardcore BG-traditionalist may not be as open-minded about this subject as those posting here, they seem to agree that only pure traditional fare belongs in sessions/jams.
# Posted on January 22nd 2003 by mad dawg
...as for me, a relative novice, I'm still trying to figure out if I myself belong in sessions/jams
# Posted on January 22nd 2003 by mad dawg
Re: Folk-Rock
I came to the real thing through listening to Clannad and Patrick Ball (not folk rock, but not exactly "pure drop" either.) Yes it gave me the wrong impression of Irish music, and Yes it sent me swimming upstream to find out more. And I did. And my wrong impression was replaced with the real thing, and I am so glad for it and it may not have happened at all otherwise.
# Posted on January 22nd 2003 by Andee