I like the names of tunes such as 'kitty came a clinkin' coming from the races' and Welsh tunes have so many tunes expressing a love of birds...many of which would make a veritable advert for the rspb!
Historically, I like to imagine that people named tunes according to feelings/historical events/whims.
I remember a session in Canberra in the late seventies which was a mix of Irish and bush music. I loved it and the music that was then played in the Gaelic club in Sydney..one group I remember called Raglan Road.
I always felt as if us non-native population was perched on such an ancient civilisation with people that knew how to live with nature without destroying it. I wonder if there are any merged aboriginal 'folk'/trad./bush music expressions around? Now that would be a meeting of the waters.
Speaking of which, I listened to a Cherokee Native American flute player last night. Actually - his "flutes" looked very much like differently carved penny-whistles in various sizes.
He told us that "Amazing Grace" was actually a Cherokee Nation song before that old slave-trader heard it and put words to it.
I've always thought there was some similarity between Native American flute music and Trad.......... I'm wondering if it's a whistle connection or something deeper....... or just something stuck in my ears!
More or less according to Wikipedia, "Amazing Grace" appeared in American hymnbooks from the 1830s; the tune's origin is unknown, though it sounds like (and works very well as) a Highland bagpipe tune; and the Cherokee Indians in particular adopted it as a lament while undergoing enforced removal to other land ("The Trail of Tears"). I assume the Cherokees learned it off the Anglophone settlers, but there seems to be no certain proof it wasn't the other way round.
I hadn't realised it only became widely known in modern times in the UK when the folk revival in America got hold of it - if Wiki is correct here.
"I remember a session in Canberra in the late seventies which was a mix of Irish and bush music"
Seeing as you brought it up, wendyann, what is bush music? An Australian told me that I play a lot of bush tunes, which I was unaware of. Is this good or bad?
It is indeed 'Kitty got a clinking, coming from the fair' Seamus Ennis, in his nmotes for The pipering of Willie Clancy, wrote: 'Clinking is slang for an intimate act of warm admiration'
Well splendid, we could talk about all the Irish tunes whose names reflect - "a love of birds", e.g. such classics as - The Girl Of The House, The Two And Six Penny Girl, Pay The Girl Her Fourpence, The Pretty Girl, The Merry Girl, The Pretty Girl Milking Her Cow, The Girl With The Blue Dress On, Girls Of The Town ..... & of course - The Girl Who Broke My Heart .... to name but a few!
Unfortunately I know nothing of the aboriginal folk traditions.
In all seriousness, there have to be some links between mankind's indigineous traditional musics. If you can follow the link there are pictures, they look like bone penny whistles with pipe fingerings.
"...excavations at the early Neolithic site of Jiahu, located in Henan province, China, have yielded six complete bone flutes between 7,000 and 9,000 years old. Fragments of approximately 30 other flutes were also discovered. The flutes may be the earliest complete, playable, tightly-dated, multinote musical instruments..."
"wonder if there are any merged aboriginal 'folk'/trad./bush music"
Indigenous Australians took to Country & Western very early on and have made their own style. This is exactly what you are describing but the fact is it makes most urban middle-class Australians cringe so they would prefer to pretend it didn't exist, or that didgeridoo mixed with funk is more authentic
There's a traditional bush tune in the Bush Dance book published by the Sydney Bush Music Club called "Black Man Piddled In The White Man's Shoe". A fairly evocative tune title that might suit Wendy's romantic notion of a 'meeting of the waters' ?
If you really want to get an insight into the relationship between aboriginal and bush music, try reading an interview with Fred Smith from the Bushwackers. He became disillusioned with the supposed 'native australian' bush music after performing it to aboriginal communities and seeing their total lack of connection with the stuff the Bushawackers were playing.
I didn't know Bush liked any music. But I suppose if you crossed Welsh ornophillic music with bush music the tune you'd get would be The Bird in the Bush.
Btw has anyone here read The Songlines by Bruce Chatwin? Brilliant book
Come on guys and gals. You would have to go much further back than two thousand BC. Don't you realise that as humans we are ALL related and we all have a (sometimes untapped) spiritual connection to the world we live in. A world beyond the logical - creative, healing, timeless, limitless, empowering. People only express it differently, that's all. Heaven help us if this bond is lost.
Before you all get toooooooo serious and shoot me down in flames, my whim is a homemaker's nightmare: The dusty windowsill.
And the event: Poor but happy at 53 (but that event has long gone passed thankfully) - thank you Paidi Ban O'Brion fer that little gem, and Paul Kelly for sending me the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y-6vTOMf4Y
Is this not a lovely example of traditional music and an expression of feelings? Good on ya Paidi! Your music lives on.
But anyway, when I went out to Oz a while back, I read up a bit about aboriginal culture. It seems so distant, not just from European culture, but from other civic cultures as it, or rather they (as there are, or were, hundreds of them) are almost entirely nomadic (correct me if I'm wrong). "Civic" here is used meaning based in cities, from which the word civilisation comes. I don't think you can class aboriginal culture as civilisation, bearing that meaning in mind. So before the political-correctos lynch me here's wikipedia's definition:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation#Literal_and_technical_definitions
Also aboriginal culture branched off and stayed isolated from the rest of humanity so far back, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians#Migration_to_Australia
that I doubt you'd find any common points of reference in their music. So synthesizing a "Metis" style there would be very contrived. Unless you had a session with didges and clapping sticks. Just my view. Sory to pour cold water on the notion.
Well Maclean, I don't recon the auld yellaboard is the place fer airing peoples views on "civilisation" and Aboriginal cultures. I'm more than happy to talk to you off it, as you have obviously some interest - ie The Songlines (which are integral to Indigenous cultures) etc. Not being Indigenous myself, I feel it very wrong of me to be talking/discussing/arguing about it on what is an ITM forum of ITM enthusiasts.
I have great respect for Aboriginal cultures, as I said in a previous thread, and here in Central Australia we are surrounded by very spiritual places. One little mute point: Is civilization (living in cities) better than a nomadic existence? Or is it just different? Civilization has a cost, and even great civilizations come and go because they are not actually sustainable very long term.
Can we please get back to ITM. PS: I love yous all.
Bren, the funny thing is the indigenous Irish also - "took to Country & Western very early on and have made their own style." but sadly, I'm not so sure that *Irish Country* actually does make most urban middle-class Irish folk cringe!
What would Ireland's equivalent to Bush Music be I wonder?
"Don't you realise that as humans we are ALL related" - you try telling that to some of the hard-liners up here in Ulster, CD!
But seriously, Burns said all that when he wrote - "We're aw Jock Tamson's Bairns" & "Although Jock Tamson's Bairns is used as a personification of the Scots nation, it is also used to refer to the human race in general."
Oh & just a thought CD, I'm assuming the Aboriginal culture remained in such a primitive state for so long, simply because they were isolated, but was the fact that they were nomadic a major influence on that lack of development?
That thought just makes me wonder what music would be played in Ireland today, if it had been so isolated, for so long ................ I suspect they would, as settled folks, have still created a more developed & varied culture & would be no doubt be playing more than plant leaves, big straws & sticks. In this regard, is there more perhaps linking the Aboriginal lack of musical development, as we see it, with the other nomadic tribes of the World, in particular the more isolated ones. I'm sure most of the others would differ in that they *would* have come in contact with other cultures from time to time & so progressed.
A heavy subject for a Sunday morning .... my head hurts!
I suspect the world's developed musical instruments have mostly, if not all, originated at the heart of settled civilisations with a surplus of time, money and a wide choice of materials available, and rulers who encouraged musical experiment - out of a liking for its pleasures, a desire to please their gods with it, whatever. By "developed instruments" I mean those that produce a number of notes that are separated by intervals that the craftsman or player aspires to make specific : basically, tunes. I exclude drums / percussion here, and one-note instruments like the didge and the Bronze Age horn (as far as I know).
In the Europeanised world we owe our musical instruments to the Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Greeks and Romans. I assume the Irish and other North European harps and lyres, however different in final form, are direct descendants of those in the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations. I read that the Native American flute is likely to have originated in Mesoamerica - I assume in one of its civilisations - and that would not surprise me.
It seems to me that a nomadic way of life does not encourage the invention of musical instruments as I have defined them, for one reason and another.
(This isn't to suggest that nomads never *play*the more advanced instruments, if introduced to them; just that, if isolated, they seem unlikely to *invent* them.)
Progressed how, dear Ptarmi? Its a "civilized" notion (not meant at all harshly ). Please don't tar and feather me up fer saying it. The absolute isolation of Australia (or anywhere else where there are Indigenous peoples) is a myth, unless you only consider contact with "civilized" Europeans as relevant and important. Colonialism is a damaging ideaology. The Indigenous Irish were treated contempuously by colonialism, as have been most of the Indigenous peoples around the world (and that's one bond between them all).
Australian Aborigines most certainly manipulated the environment in ways that led to their survival, but they walked lightly and did not do in 40,000 plus years here, anyway near the same damage that civilization has done over the last 209 years. Is that progress? It depends on your perspective.
So the traditional musical instruments of Indigenous cultures in Oz and elsewhere, but maybe particularly in Oz might seem relatively simple, no, bluudy basic, but the function they perform is spiritually very complex and deep. Who are we to judge? Its worse than someone who doesn't know anything about Irish Traditional Music saying off hand that the tunes all sound the same. Well yes they might do, unless you're into them and understand. You have to look beyond to the meaning behind the music. It, like the art work, is highly spiritual and creative. So please just don't be dismissive of something you and I know nothing about, that's all.
OOOooo I'm sorry. Better slink back into lurkdom before I get burned at the stake ... sorry about yer head Ptarmigan. I don't mean you any harm. Have a great Sunday.
Someone mentioned native American flutes earlier... it reminded me of Francie McPeake's brilliant version of "Come all ye fair and tender ladies"
In the instrumental break he plays a native American flute - a whistle really - which was given to him by Pete Seeger. It's much more mellow than a tin whistle and it suits the song perfectly.
as you can see, Danny and pTarmy, terms that you might think are unequivocal and neutral are loaded weapons in Oz politics. Google "history wars" if you dare.
having said that, there are a number of instruments associated with nomadic cultures - the essence being of course, that they are either highly portable or can be made quickly from local materials
CD, as I'm sure you know, I was not being dismissive at all, just stating an obvious fact. I was talking about the instruments themselves, & the fact that Aboriginal Musical Instruments are far more primitive than the most advanced of Western instruments.
Can you really compare a leaf, a couple of sticks & a long tube with something like a set of Uillean Pipes? Obviously not, but what I was getting at was that their lifestyle & isolation did little to encourage the need or desire for them to development anything more complicated.
The complexity or simplicity of their culture is a whole nother can of worms.
Nicholas, I admit the instruments we play now are probably descended from those played by the Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Greeks and Romans, but I also believe some credit has to go to those skilled craftsmen who, over the years, had the foresight, ingenuity & power of lateral thinking to take these simple instruments & improve on them. Otherwise, we'd still be playing those basic instruments!
Give me a Violin over a Memling Fiddle or a Clarsach over a C Harp any day. The old ones are interesting to play in a quaint, novel sort of way but I've found that the novelty soon wears off!
'...Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Greeks and Romans, but I also believe some credit has to go to those skilled craftsmen who, over the years...'
Now that's what I'm talking about. Ya think that Chinese fella from 7k-9k years ago gives bone flute workshops? Time to fire up my time machine.
In all honesty though this whole thread has got me thinking that perhaps I should see if I can find some native Floridian Seminole musicians to invite to our sessions down here. Maybe they'll scare away the cowboy Bluegrass players that infect us from time to time.
There are areas in Australia that the aboriginal people took up fiddles and played a blend of European and indiginous music. The National library in Canberra has field recordings, mostly collected by Chris Sullivan and Rob Willis, of this blending of the two cultures.
CD and others - I'm well aware that Native Australian (which is apparently how we are to refer to this) culture is extremely complex. And I've heard what can be done with a didgeridoo (which is supposedly only native to up around the the Top End - Arnheimland and Kakadu.) I needn't repeat Ptarm's and Bren's points as to why Native Australians don't have Uillean pipes.
The social customs for various life functions, such as who is allowed to marry whom, and punishment for misdemeanours, are infinitely and mindbogglingly complex. And the fact that the people have carried this group of complex systems around with them, and perpetuated it by oral transmission, for upwards of 40,000 years is remarkable.
When anthropologists first studied Native Australians they were amazed that these folk were able to find their way across the desert without maps and so on. It was even speculated that they were telepathic.
I seem to recall that the highly complex and stylised "Sean Nos" singing which Chatwin describes is actually a means of transmitting, by ancient oral means, maps and directions across the bush, from one end of Australia to the other.
He even went on to speculate that prior to their arrival in Australia, neolithic (or would that be mesolithic?) nomads would have done the same, andperhaps within existing preliterate societies there are "Songlines" for Africa, the Americas and Eurasia. Not exactly plausible but fascinating reading.
Incidentally, the reason I started talking about Aboriginal cultures and Australian in particular, was that the question was posed by Wendyann who started the thread. And since when have we deliberately confined a thread to purely a discussion of traditional music?
All societies are as complex but one without a literature we can study and get to know from a distance without verbal contact can seem fascinatingly opaque. We do have a tendency then to indulge our "noble savage" fantasies. I read a report by an anthropologist in remote Western Australia who had been living with desert people there, while I Was working nearby.
He wrote that when he first saw a smoke signal, he was told that it said the sender had made it to a waterhole and that food there was plentiful. He was amazed that a simple puff of smoke could convey so much. After a while, he learnt that anyone setting off on such a quest would say " When I get to a waterhole with plenty of food, I'll send up a puff of smoke", or it would be understood that that was the routine
I think there are some parallels here with the way we look at traditional music and I think it's great that such discussions arise from it.
Ha! nice one Bren. Yes, you're right about the noble savage fantasy indulgence thing. Hope I wasn't too guilty of that. When I read of the complexity of their matrimonial system I was thinking well, living in the bush was hard enough, yet they had to go and invent, or evolve, all these complicated rules. As if they didn't have any real architecture so they had to make up "virtual" architecture.
Hi Danny,
CAAMA radio, Imparja television, Aboriginal Airservices. All about modern communication within and between communities. An important aspect of Aboriginal culture old and new. Noble savage indulgence thingy - definitely not, but respect for difference - definitely YES. Oh me, oh my. If my students (the majority of whom are Indigenous, incidently) were listening in to this yellaboard I think they would be horrified. I like to think that we are all humans with human talents and failings As I said before, I don't think this is the appropriate place to be airing such stuff. That's all.
I should have added maybe..that I did have a great time almost 8 years ago now, with some aboriginal friends up Northern Australia, my friend on her didgeridoo and me on my tin whistle. It was great fun. I wouldn't want to make claim to have created a new fusion though. I thought my whistle a cruder instrument in comparison!
Traditional music and expression of feelings
Traditional music and expression of feelings
I like the names of tunes such as 'kitty came a clinkin' coming from the races' and Welsh tunes have so many tunes expressing a love of birds...many of which would make a veritable advert for the rspb!
Historically, I like to imagine that people named tunes according to feelings/historical events/whims.
I remember a session in Canberra in the late seventies which was a mix of Irish and bush music. I loved it and the music that was then played in the Gaelic club in Sydney..one group I remember called Raglan Road.
I always felt as if us non-native population was perched on such an ancient civilisation with people that knew how to live with nature without destroying it. I wonder if there are any merged aboriginal 'folk'/trad./bush music expressions around? Now that would be a meeting of the waters.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by wendyann
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Along the lines of Canadian Metis fiddling. Definitely some mixing of French/Scots and Indian culture.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Speaking of which, I listened to a Cherokee Native American flute player last night. Actually - his "flutes" looked very much like differently carved penny-whistles in various sizes.
He told us that "Amazing Grace" was actually a Cherokee Nation song before that old slave-trader heard it and put words to it.
I've always thought there was some similarity between Native American flute music and Trad.......... I'm wondering if it's a whistle connection or something deeper....... or just something stuck in my ears!
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by morning star
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
More or less according to Wikipedia, "Amazing Grace" appeared in American hymnbooks from the 1830s; the tune's origin is unknown, though it sounds like (and works very well as) a Highland bagpipe tune; and the Cherokee Indians in particular adopted it as a lament while undergoing enforced removal to other land ("The Trail of Tears"). I assume the Cherokees learned it off the Anglophone settlers, but there seems to be no certain proof it wasn't the other way round.
I hadn't realised it only became widely known in modern times in the UK when the folk revival in America got hold of it - if Wiki is correct here.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
'..some similarity between Native American flute music and Trad...'
Little known non-fact: St. Brendan had a session everywhere he went.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
St Brendans boat was a literally a giant bodhran.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
It was also saturated with butteroil and rather smelly.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Backer
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
"I remember a session in Canberra in the late seventies which was a mix of Irish and bush music"
Seeing as you brought it up, wendyann, what is bush music? An Australian told me that I play a lot of bush tunes, which I was unaware of. Is this good or bad?
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
You must return here with a shrubbery... or else you will never
pass through this wood... alive.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
I believe it is 'kitty GOT a clinkin' coming from the races"...
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Ceolagusrince
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Then there's the tune called "The Cat that kittled on Jamie's wig".
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
It is indeed 'Kitty got a clinking, coming from the fair' Seamus Ennis, in his nmotes for The pipering of Willie Clancy, wrote: 'Clinking is slang for an intimate act of warm admiration'
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Surely somewhere there was a St. Bodhran...
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
"Surely somewhere there was a St. Bodhran... "
Yes. He was elevated to sainthood when he stabbed himself to death with a pen-knife.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
And the continuous Irish rain is the sad tears of Fluit and Feadog mourning his loss. Very 1890s-ish!
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
'... what is bush music? An Australian told me that I play a lot of bush tunes...'
I've been told my playing is 'bush league' but you know, that's just really not nice at all.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Hey Oldstrings, here's the guy you should be tipping your hat to, the guy who started the *bush league* tradition in the first place!
http://www.historyplace.com/specials/portraits/presidents/g-w-bush.jpg
Aye Morph, those Swiss Army Knives can be lethal!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
so much for this discussion!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Well splendid, we could talk about all the Irish tunes whose names reflect - "a love of birds", e.g. such classics as - The Girl Of The House, The Two And Six Penny Girl, Pay The Girl Her Fourpence, The Pretty Girl, The Merry Girl, The Pretty Girl Milking Her Cow, The Girl With The Blue Dress On, Girls Of The Town ..... & of course - The Girl Who Broke My Heart .... to name but a few!
Unfortunately I know nothing of the aboriginal folk traditions.
However, I did find Native American Flute player - Jay Red Eagle, playing Amazing Grace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyOtxGKzo98&mode=related&search=
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
In all seriousness, there have to be some links between mankind's indigineous traditional musics. If you can follow the link there are pictures, they look like bone penny whistles with pipe fingerings.
"...excavations at the early Neolithic site of Jiahu, located in Henan province, China, have yielded six complete bone flutes between 7,000 and 9,000 years old. Fragments of approximately 30 other flutes were also discovered. The flutes may be the earliest complete, playable, tightly-dated, multinote musical instruments..."
http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/1999/bnlpr092299.html
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
...well, smaller holes, obviously.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Hey SWFL, you don't have to go all the way to China! Check this out - *Unique prehistoric musical instrument discovered in Co. Wicklow*.
N.B. - "A peg used in the construction of the wooden trough lining has been radio-carbon dated to between 2120BC and 2085BC."
http://www.mglarc.com/projects/musical_instrument.htm
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
"wonder if there are any merged aboriginal 'folk'/trad./bush music"
Indigenous Australians took to Country & Western very early on and have made their own style. This is exactly what you are describing but the fact is it makes most urban middle-class Australians cringe so they would prefer to pretend it didn't exist, or that didgeridoo mixed with funk is more authentic
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Bren
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
There's a traditional bush tune in the Bush Dance book published by the Sydney Bush Music Club called "Black Man Piddled In The White Man's Shoe". A fairly evocative tune title that might suit Wendy's romantic notion of a 'meeting of the waters' ?
If you really want to get an insight into the relationship between aboriginal and bush music, try reading an interview with Fred Smith from the Bushwackers. He became disillusioned with the supposed 'native australian' bush music after performing it to aboriginal communities and seeing their total lack of connection with the stuff the Bushawackers were playing.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by dogbox
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
I didn't know Bush liked any music. But I suppose if you crossed Welsh ornophillic music with bush music the tune you'd get would be The Bird in the Bush.
Btw has anyone here read The Songlines by Bruce Chatwin? Brilliant book
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Come on guys and gals. You would have to go much further back than two thousand BC. Don't you realise that as humans we are ALL related and we all have a (sometimes untapped) spiritual connection to the world we live in. A world beyond the logical - creative, healing, timeless, limitless, empowering. People only express it differently, that's all. Heaven help us if this bond is lost.
Before you all get toooooooo serious and shoot me down in flames, my whim is a homemaker's nightmare: The dusty windowsill.
And the event: Poor but happy at 53 (but that event has long gone passed thankfully) - thank you Paidi Ban O'Brion fer that little gem, and Paul Kelly for sending me the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y-6vTOMf4Y
Is this not a lovely example of traditional music and an expression of feelings? Good on ya Paidi! Your music lives on.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Clear Drops
I should have said: Your spirit lives on.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
But anyway, when I went out to Oz a while back, I read up a bit about aboriginal culture. It seems so distant, not just from European culture, but from other civic cultures as it, or rather they (as there are, or were, hundreds of them) are almost entirely nomadic (correct me if I'm wrong). "Civic" here is used meaning based in cities, from which the word civilisation comes. I don't think you can class aboriginal culture as civilisation, bearing that meaning in mind. So before the political-correctos lynch me here's wikipedia's definition:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation#Literal_and_technical_definitions
Also aboriginal culture branched off and stayed isolated from the rest of humanity so far back,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians#Migration_to_Australia
that I doubt you'd find any common points of reference in their music. So synthesizing a "Metis" style there would be very contrived. Unless you had a session with didges and clapping sticks. Just my view. Sory to pour cold water on the notion.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Well Maclean, I don't recon the auld yellaboard is the place fer airing peoples views on "civilisation" and Aboriginal cultures. I'm more than happy to talk to you off it, as you have obviously some interest - ie The Songlines (which are integral to Indigenous cultures) etc. Not being Indigenous myself, I feel it very wrong of me to be talking/discussing/arguing about it on what is an ITM forum of ITM enthusiasts.
I have great respect for Aboriginal cultures, as I said in a previous thread, and here in Central Australia we are surrounded by very spiritual places. One little mute point: Is civilization (living in cities) better than a nomadic existence? Or is it just different? Civilization has a cost, and even great civilizations come and go because they are not actually sustainable very long term.
Can we please get back to ITM. PS: I love yous all.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Yippeeee it's Summertime!
Bren, the funny thing is the indigenous Irish also - "took to Country & Western very early on and have made their own style." but sadly, I'm not so sure that *Irish Country* actually does make most urban middle-class Irish folk cringe!
What would Ireland's equivalent to Bush Music be I wonder?
"Don't you realise that as humans we are ALL related" - you try telling that to some of the hard-liners up here in Ulster, CD!
But seriously, Burns said all that when he wrote - "We're aw Jock Tamson's Bairns" & "Although Jock Tamson's Bairns is used as a personification of the Scots nation, it is also used to refer to the human race in general."
Oh & just a thought CD, I'm assuming the Aboriginal culture remained in such a primitive state for so long, simply because they were isolated, but was the fact that they were nomadic a major influence on that lack of development?
That thought just makes me wonder what music would be played in Ireland today, if it had been so isolated, for so long ................ I suspect they would, as settled folks, have still created a more developed & varied culture & would be no doubt be playing more than plant leaves, big straws & sticks. In this regard, is there more perhaps linking the Aboriginal lack of musical development, as we see it, with the other nomadic tribes of the World, in particular the more isolated ones. I'm sure most of the others would differ in that they *would* have come in contact with other cultures from time to time & so progressed.
A heavy subject for a Sunday morning .... my head hurts!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
I suspect the world's developed musical instruments have mostly, if not all, originated at the heart of settled civilisations with a surplus of time, money and a wide choice of materials available, and rulers who encouraged musical experiment - out of a liking for its pleasures, a desire to please their gods with it, whatever. By "developed instruments" I mean those that produce a number of notes that are separated by intervals that the craftsman or player aspires to make specific : basically, tunes. I exclude drums / percussion here, and one-note instruments like the didge and the Bronze Age horn (as far as I know).
In the Europeanised world we owe our musical instruments to the Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Greeks and Romans. I assume the Irish and other North European harps and lyres, however different in final form, are direct descendants of those in the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations. I read that the Native American flute is likely to have originated in Mesoamerica - I assume in one of its civilisations - and that would not surprise me.
It seems to me that a nomadic way of life does not encourage the invention of musical instruments as I have defined them, for one reason and another.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
(This isn't to suggest that nomads never *play*the more advanced instruments, if introduced to them; just that, if isolated, they seem unlikely to *invent* them.)
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Progressed how, dear Ptarmi? Its a "civilized" notion (not meant at all harshly
). Please don't tar and feather me up fer saying it. The absolute isolation of Australia (or anywhere else where there are Indigenous peoples) is a myth, unless you only consider contact with "civilized" Europeans as relevant and important. Colonialism is a damaging ideaology. The Indigenous Irish were treated contempuously by colonialism, as have been most of the Indigenous peoples around the world (and that's one bond between them all).
OOOooo I'm sorry. Better slink back into lurkdom before I get burned at the stake ... sorry about yer head Ptarmigan. I don't mean you any harm. Have a great Sunday. 
Australian Aborigines most certainly manipulated the environment in ways that led to their survival, but they walked lightly and did not do in 40,000 plus years here, anyway near the same damage that civilization has done over the last 209 years. Is that progress? It depends on your perspective.
So the traditional musical instruments of Indigenous cultures in Oz and elsewhere, but maybe particularly in Oz might seem relatively simple, no, bluudy basic, but the function they perform is spiritually very complex and deep. Who are we to judge? Its worse than someone who doesn't know anything about Irish Traditional Music saying off hand that the tunes all sound the same. Well yes they might do, unless you're into them and understand. You have to look beyond to the meaning behind the music. It, like the art work, is highly spiritual and creative. So please just don't be dismissive of something you and I know nothing about, that's all.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
219 years - durrh!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Someone mentioned native American flutes earlier... it reminded me of Francie McPeake's brilliant version of "Come all ye fair and tender ladies"
In the instrumental break he plays a native American flute - a whistle really - which was given to him by Pete Seeger. It's much more mellow than a tin whistle and it suits the song perfectly.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
as you can see, Danny and pTarmy, terms that you might think are unequivocal and neutral are loaded weapons in Oz politics. Google "history wars" if you dare.
having said that, there are a number of instruments associated with nomadic cultures - the essence being of course, that they are either highly portable or can be made quickly from local materials
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Bren
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
CD, as I'm sure you know, I was not being dismissive at all, just stating an obvious fact. I was talking about the instruments themselves, & the fact that Aboriginal Musical Instruments are far more primitive than the most advanced of Western instruments.
Can you really compare a leaf, a couple of sticks & a long tube with something like a set of Uillean Pipes? Obviously not, but what I was getting at was that their lifestyle & isolation did little to encourage the need or desire for them to development anything more complicated.
The complexity or simplicity of their culture is a whole nother can of worms.
Nicholas, I admit the instruments we play now are probably descended from those played by the Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Greeks and Romans, but I also believe some credit has to go to those skilled craftsmen who, over the years, had the foresight, ingenuity & power of lateral thinking to take these simple instruments & improve on them. Otherwise, we'd still be playing those basic instruments!
Give me a Violin over a Memling Fiddle or a Clarsach over a C Harp any day. The old ones are interesting to play in a quaint, novel sort of way but I've found that the novelty soon wears off!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
I don't know about you, Ptar, but my head hurts just reading this. (May have something to do with the intake of alcohol last night).
I have to admit I was expecting a very different thread based on the title - silly me.
Anyone care to get back to it?!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by ceoltoir2010
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Feelings: "Kiss the lass you love best"
events: "The Dingle Regatta" (heh heh, cue pot stirring)
"The night before Larry was stretched"
whims: hmmm... can't think of any - brain running on slow
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by ceoltoir2010
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
'...Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Greeks and Romans, but I also believe some credit has to go to those skilled craftsmen who, over the years...'
Now that's what I'm talking about. Ya think that Chinese fella from 7k-9k years ago gives bone flute workshops? Time to fire up my time machine.
In all honesty though this whole thread has got me thinking that perhaps I should see if I can find some native Floridian Seminole musicians to invite to our sessions down here. Maybe they'll scare away the cowboy Bluegrass players that infect us from time to time.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Ah ha SWFL, so you mean some good might come of these ramblings after all!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
There are areas in Australia that the aboriginal people took up fiddles and played a blend of European and indiginous music. The National library in Canberra has field recordings, mostly collected by Chris Sullivan and Rob Willis, of this blending of the two cultures.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by woops
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
CD and others - I'm well aware that Native Australian (which is apparently how we are to refer to this) culture is extremely complex. And I've heard what can be done with a didgeridoo (which is supposedly only native to up around the the Top End - Arnheimland and Kakadu.) I needn't repeat Ptarm's and Bren's points as to why Native Australians don't have Uillean pipes.
The social customs for various life functions, such as who is allowed to marry whom, and punishment for misdemeanours, are infinitely and mindbogglingly complex. And the fact that the people have carried this group of complex systems around with them, and perpetuated it by oral transmission, for upwards of 40,000 years is remarkable.
When anthropologists first studied Native Australians they were amazed that these folk were able to find their way across the desert without maps and so on. It was even speculated that they were telepathic.
I seem to recall that the highly complex and stylised "Sean Nos" singing which Chatwin describes is actually a means of transmitting, by ancient oral means, maps and directions across the bush, from one end of Australia to the other.
He even went on to speculate that prior to their arrival in Australia, neolithic (or would that be mesolithic?) nomads would have done the same, andperhaps within existing preliterate societies there are "Songlines" for Africa, the Americas and Eurasia. Not exactly plausible but fascinating reading.
Incidentally, the reason I started talking about Aboriginal cultures and Australian in particular, was that the question was posed by Wendyann who started the thread. And since when have we deliberately confined a thread to purely a discussion of traditional music?
Best Wishes,
Danny
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Does wendyann have any further observations?
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
All societies are as complex but one without a literature we can study and get to know from a distance without verbal contact can seem fascinatingly opaque. We do have a tendency then to indulge our "noble savage" fantasies. I read a report by an anthropologist in remote Western Australia who had been living with desert people there, while I Was working nearby.
He wrote that when he first saw a smoke signal, he was told that it said the sender had made it to a waterhole and that food there was plentiful. He was amazed that a simple puff of smoke could convey so much. After a while, he learnt that anyone setting off on such a quest would say " When I get to a waterhole with plenty of food, I'll send up a puff of smoke", or it would be understood that that was the routine
I think there are some parallels here with the way we look at traditional music and I think it's great that such discussions arise from it.
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by Bren
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Ha! nice one Bren. Yes, you're right about the noble savage fantasy indulgence thing. Hope I wasn't too guilty of that. When I read of the complexity of their matrimonial system I was thinking well, living in the bush was hard enough, yet they had to go and invent, or evolve, all these complicated rules. As if they didn't have any real architecture so they had to make up "virtual" architecture.
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Interesting post
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by mkvictor
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
Hi Danny,
to you all.
CAAMA radio, Imparja television, Aboriginal Airservices. All about modern communication within and between communities. An important aspect of Aboriginal culture old and new. Noble savage indulgence thingy - definitely not, but respect for difference - definitely YES. Oh me, oh my. If my students (the majority of whom are Indigenous, incidently) were listening in to this yellaboard I think they would be horrified. I like to think that we are all humans with human talents and failings As I said before, I don't think this is the appropriate place to be airing such stuff. That's all.
A big
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
mmm... maybe I better give it rest then. No disrespect intended, though.
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Traditional music and expression of feelings
I should have added maybe..that I did have a great time almost 8 years ago now, with some aboriginal friends up Northern Australia, my friend on her didgeridoo and me on my tin whistle. It was great fun. I wouldn't want to make claim to have created a new fusion though. I thought my whistle a cruder instrument in comparison!
# Posted on April 30th 2007 by wendyann