Had a recent experience that made me curious about how folks here view the matter:
An acquaintaince of mine recently began booking performers for a weekly "music night" at a restaurant-pub. The idea, as I understand it, is the musicians (whose genres have varied from Irish/Celtic to blues to pop/show tunes) are something between background noise and featured entertainment; management wants them heard, but not enough to overpower conversation.
When my acquaintance talked about getting me and an accompanist a gig at this place, she told me I'd have to provide my own sound. The restaurant is pretty new overall, as is their music series, so they're apparently not able or willing to invest in such equipment, at least not yet.
This created some difficulty, because I don't have a system of my own, and as I found out (not that it was a surprise) people who do are not very likely to lend them out. The gig wouldn't pay all that much anyway, so renting a system seemed illogical.
In fact, since this wasn't a big-time, make-or-break gig (and I ain't in it for the money anyway), I felt all the more sheepish about asking: It's not as if I was preparing to play in a sesveral hundred-seat concert hall for big bucks.
Anyway, I appear to have resolved the situation. But as I said, it left me a little curious. For those of you out there who, like me, are "part-time," evenings/weekends type of musicians -- do you have your own system, and do you insist on using it at all of your gigs? Or do you generally leave it up to the venue where you'll be playing? Have you found the investment -- not only the original purchase, but also the maintenance, repair, etc. -- to be worth it?
Just for clarification, I'm not really asking for advice or recommendations, per se. At this point, getting a sound system is _not_ a consideration for me. I've literally no room to keep it at home (barely have a corner squeezed out for my instruments), and frankly I just don't do enough gigs where I could imagine needing my own sound system; most of the places I've played, or want to play, have their own and I tend to trust that they know what they're doing.
But in the "for-sake-of-argument, never-know-what-the-future-may-bring" mode, I thought I'd poll the delegation...
I do own equipment. I prefer to play without, but some situations demand it, in consideration of your audience, so its a matter of venue and occasion. Really recent technology has reduced the size and weight of equipment, so I wouldn't rule out a small system that packs into a roller bag, or even a multi-channel powered speaker. There's a lot of options for a low-impact storable system.
I'm worried that there is a plethora of posts that have nothing whatsoever to do with ... "The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This web-site is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes."
Most venues here have their own system but for places where they don't, folk beg and borrow from musicians they know,usually for an agreed fee.
One of the great places for meeting such musicians is at a session, where you might go to play jigs, reels and other dance tunes after exchanging tunes on this website and discussing them online.
I have my instruments set-up to be as "plug and play" -able as possible and I don't have a system - but I know a man who does
I have a system. We used to use it a lot as Belfast and other places used to have a lot of bookings for "Folk/Trad" bands. We are now more or less in semi-retirement, and use it on St Paddy's day.
The above however were "Gigs". Whenever a landlord suggests using the system at a session, I always explain that all that means is that the punters would have to talk louder. "Sessions", paid or unpaid, should not be electrified.
I have a mike, stand and small Marshall amp. Any bigger stuff has been supplied by other guys whom I've been in a band or amplified session with. They're all just big heavy black boxes full of eelecktronical stuff to me. And that just the other musicians. Some guys (and it's always guys, usually guitarists who'd previously been in rock bands) really relish all the preamble of setting up, pre-amps, equalisers, one-two, one-two, all that sh*te. Give me a small intimate acoustic session in a quiet wee dark pub in the back of beyond any day.
I share a sound system with some fellow musicians. This is because quite a lot of the time we perform (and people pretend to listen) rather than sitting in the corner of a pub playing and pretending no one's listening (and people pretend not to listen).
I wouldn't be particularly happy about lending or hiring the equipment out (well, specifically, the cables - they always get wound incorrectly), and anyway, if someone got electrocuted... For these reasons I prefer to operate the equipment myself if it needed for concerts, etc.
When performing (wow, the p word twice) I prefer to use in house equipment if available, because then the sound isn't our responsibility and it's less equipment to lug about and you don't have to set up and dismantle.
In an ideal world we wouldn't use amplification but some of the old dears are getting awfully deaf.
Amplification is a complete waste of time.
The louder the volume of the music - the louder noise the 'audience' will make.
We have 4 year's experience of this:
www.goringunplugged.co.uk
Once a month. 200 'punters'. No amplification.
When playing for one-off or annual community events or dances, our band usually rents the sound equipment, as there is seldom any provided. If decent stuff is available, AND
ahem, posted by accident.
If decent stuff is available, and can be set up/run by others, well and good. To attempt to manage some odds and ends of sound equipment which may be in dubious condition is not a lot of fun.
We had planned to buy some gear at one time, and got as far as one mike and stand, but couldn't decide what we really needed to cover all normal requirements.
If amplification is required, but the payment not enough to cover it, after pin money for the band, I would decline. As others have commented above, better to just have a session.
I played an amplified gig last Saturday (Some sort of Saint's day). The people in the pub loved it so much they shrieked and yelled to tell each other so over the amplified music.
If it had been acoustic, they could have shrieked and yelled much quiter and still conveyed those important pieces of information - and STILL drowned the music out
If people want to hear you - they will be quiet and listen. If they don't, they will bellow over any amount of amplification. If you want to be heard - play what people want to hear. If you simply want to play, have a session and anyone interested will come over and listen.
Agreed, Ottery. Except for dances. A larger band might do, depending on acoustics (many halls are horrible in that regard) but the caller has to be heard.
I possess a small acoustic amp for my guitar. The only reason I got it was to be able to play fingerstyle stuff in an acoustic setting where the other louder instruments would otherwise drown out the sound of the guitar. I just turn it off when doing chord accompaniment with plectrum. As a means of amplification it is much more user friendly than a PA system.
I'd say it depends on the city in which you live and what the venue wants. Where I used to live the public transit was, well, crap. Everyone drove, so most venues expected us to bring all our own gear, including PA. Now I live in a city with a great bus system, I'm thrilled about not having to own a car, and any club or bar that wants live music knows that they must have a sound system - and usually a drum kit - because most of the musicians here don't own their own vehicle.
If the first is the case where you are, it might be wise to invest in a small PA - just a mixer/amp and a couple speakers (this allows you to do private gigs as well). But if you live in a city like I do, it's definately the bar's responsibility to provide sound.
I'm a "professional" musician [I make my living from playing and teaching]...I'm suddenly thinking I'm blessed [in the decidedly blase city of Toronto, at least towards traditional music] in that most of the clubs have their own P.A. systems, and wouldn't think of asking musicians to come out and play for small money and also drag in a P.A. system [which in my case would require a taxi cause I don't have a car, but I do have a sound system]...if you like the gig and they treat you well and feed you and ply you with drink [if you want] and give you a bit of money at the end of the night you're doing well...otherwise, you're being taken advantage of in a big way, your skills and your devotion to the music are going really cheap, in a way I suspect you'd never let your day job go...music is worth more than that.
I have a weekly gig like the one you describe--small restaurant, sometimes very noisy crowd, tiny PA provided--but we bring our own slightly (very slightly) bigger one for much better-fidelity sound. We're only fiddle and guitar, so there is no way anybody could hear us if we didn't use decent PA gear. It's a pain to haul and set up, but it's been a nice gig (as gigs go). The owner pays us, so we make the effort. We have been there about nine months now, every week with a few exceptions (illness, etc.).
One tip: Put your speaker(s) up on stands, about shoulder-high. Throws the sound over the heads of people sitting in front, so people in the back can hear. The ones sitting right in front can hear you directly--but without the speakers, they would be the only ones who could.
And yes, some of you are exactly right, this has nothing to do with playing good tunes. But for some situations, amplification is a necessary evil.
I've come across the problem where people nearest the speakers will talk the loudest and the people at the back can't hear so well. Once band had some NXT (flat panel) speakers, which I didn't think were that loud. They were playing for dancing in a long hall. When I joined the dancers (one of those long sets where you go right to the other end of the hall) I was amazed that the sound seemed still detailed and just as loud at the far end. It almost defied physics! I now have a pair of these but sadly they don't seem to work so well at high volumes. But pretty impressive and worth a go if there are just 3 or 4 of you.
Yes, but only use it for playing for dances. I don't like the idea of amps in sessions, it encourages the loud-is-best contingency on electric guitars, pianos, midi uillean pipes, you name it.
And worst of all, someone will want to sing with amplification.
I play regularly with a couple of friends in a session where we are unamplified. Others have joined in the session and it works as session should with the musicians playing because they love the music and the other pub goers enjoying the music if they want to listen. A couple of the session members also do gigs and we use PA when necessary. Depends on the venue, quiet retaurant we do without PA pubs and the like where people will be noisy we use PA. I used a pub PA system once and it was a disaster so if you are going to do gigs rather than sessions a sound system is a worthy investment and with technology theses days it needn't be expensive or massively bulky.
I must say, I love all this pompous pontificating about "never amp yourself up blah, it ain't right, it just makes people talk louder blah." Sheesh. I play ITM on the harmonica in sessions with about six to eight other musicians in noisy pub settings. I am pretty good these days at getting a full tone and projecting it, but the plain fact of the matter is that, unamplified, I haven't a cat in hell's chance of being heard, at least not till late on when the pub is quietening down, when I love to play unplugged. So I have a little battery amp, and the other fellers would be appalled if I didn't use it . All you flippin' self-styled experts. You really don't know what you're on about.
I have a "portable" Peavey Escort that is a self contained thing... it all snaps together, all but mike stands. The speakers, which are decent, the powered mixer, the cords, the speaker stands all fit inside what looks like a big boom box. It has just four channels but you can expand it with another inexepensive mixer quite easily. It's great for pubs, and we've used it for some concerts holding 100+ people and there was no problem. You can find them used sometimes on ebay for under $200, and often the mikes and stands are thrown in.
For something smaller I have a little behringer amp, acoustic I think the model was AT108 but it's not here and I may be wrong. For $60 it's amazing, it's 15 watt but tons of volume with no distortion. It has two inputs with their own volume, and they share a mid, low and hig range control dial. I found if you have a third person though, that has a pickup with a volume control, you can plug them into the CD input! I did this by accident and it worked fine. If you want things like reverb, again, a small mixer with efects, not a powered one either... you just plug it into the amp and plug the instruments/mikes into the mixer. That little amp is the best $60 I have ever spent on sound.
Unfortunately most places expect you to bring sound, but the person bringing it should try to get a few extra $$ for lugging it. If you plan to do a lot of this, it's a good investment.
Depends on which band I or we play with. Our instruments each have the ability to be plugged in if necessary. A lot of dance halls have an acoustic instrument for me to use; but if we're going electric the dancers need the extra sound. Our stage band has a sound system as well; but if it's just the two of us we can keep our gigs low key.
None of the sessions we now attend are amplified. The one "session" we used to attend that was turned out to be more of a social ceili with the musicians on a stage and the punters coming to dance as well as socialize. But they still called it a session.
I like that - I was playing at a gig last night where I had a little portable amp just to avoid having to thrash my fingers. What I take from a few of these replies is: if the stuff is portable, unobtrusive and good quality, it'll get used.
I agree with Steve Shaw above. You do need amplification sometimes. Even in sessions, sometimes the harp will be OK on its own, sometimes I need something just to bring up the bass so I can give my fingers a bit of a rest. That might sound like heresy, but it's OK if done in the best possible taste!
You simply do not understand at all Mr Ottery. I play an instrument that cannot be heard in a noisy pub setting and the circumstances and tradition of the place dictate that the clientele are not often all going to shut up at once just to hear me/us. Come along to the Tree Inn one night when I'm playing and you'll see what I'm about. The implication in your post will be demolished I assure you.
Sorry Steve, just winding you up for calling me pompous.
I've played in lots of pubs where punters can be noisy, though, and I do know that if you have a table of oiks next to you who make so much noise that you can't hear each other, if you play louder they DO get louder (Doesn't mean they get quiter if you play quieter, though!). And if you do something they want to hear, like sing a song, or play a slow tune that tickles their fancy - they go quiet and listen. And if you play reels and jigs all night, they talk over you as though you're not there, which is fine, if that's what they want to do, because it's not a performance - it's a session. In pubs where the punters ARE interested in the music, they tend to listen quite a lot.
But of course, Im probably mistaken, - as you say, I don't really know what I'm on about ...
Oh and in answer to the original question (my original 'pompous' response was rattled out after returning, somewhat inebriated, from an amplified 'gig' that made me wonder why we bother), I share a p.a. system with some other musicians - we bought it with the proceeds of ceilis etc we've played. We can all use it individually, or collectively. I use it if it's a dance, or if I'm being paid to raise the noise level in a pub or club. But if it's the latter, I'm under no illusions that we're music in the sense that a juke-box is music, and really I wouldn't do it if I wasn't being paid.
I think that Bodhran Bliss and GeoffWright above are on a similar wavelength.
The worst type are the ones who ask for a tune and then talk all the way through it. Then they ask half an hour later why you haven't played it yet. Death is too good for them.
The gig that jhol111964 described at the start of this thread sounds dodgy to begin with, but if I agreed to do it I would definitely need a small sound system. I do have one that we use for weddings and dances. If a pub wants our band to perform I would expect them to have their own system, but this isn't always the case. If a pub wants a session I don't even consider bringing a sound system. If it's too noisy in a pub for a session then the pub shouldn't have a session -- they should hire a band and the band should be amplified.
If I go into a pub that advertises a session and I see amplification I'll turn and go back out. If I go into a pub and it's too noisy for a session I'll look for one in another pub that isn't as noisy. It's my opinion that the solution to a session in a noisy pub isn't amplification -- it's vacation -- in other words... go elsewhere instead.
We worked out an arrangement with the publican at our local which is as follows: if it starts getting too noisy where we are in the center of the pub we can relocate to an area of the room that isn't as noisy. If that fails we can choose to call it a night and go away. Because the publican supports the session regardless of whether or not it makes any money we have no problem waving the fee on such occasions and just come back when the pub is as it normally is on a Sunday or Tuesday night. So far we've only taken the option to abandon the session twice since we established it. It’s comforting to have that option.
I should like to suggest that, as we all have different setups and different traditions in the pubs we play in, trying to apply some theoretical desirable standard that ought to apply to all apropos the quietness of the clientele or whether we use amps or not simply don't wash. ITM is too full of such rule-making: no amps, the pub should go into hush mode when we play, never learn tunes from dots, ornament it this or that way... I utterly love to play unamplified. I can project with my genuine tone and use my hands more, etc., ad nauseam. I do it whenever the pub's quiet or when I accompany a singer or late on just before we go home. I'd really love to do it all the time, but life my end simply ain't like that. But I enjoy my Friday nights and I struggle to stop the guys from turning my volume up even more. I simply want to get my little instrument up level with the fiddles and mandolins whilst keeping a clean sound. I want to blend, basically. If that sounds like I'm smahing the ITM rule-book to pieces, so be it. But that's how ITM is in Bude and we don't get too many complaints!
It's a session and I'm the only amplified feller. Eyebrows may be raised at some of our content but a session we be. We are who we are and we have a blast every time. We get paid handsomely in free beer, and it's Doom Bar for Pete's sake.
Strangely enough, we drink Doom Bar at a session I play at once a month - it's a beer a long way from home!
I think maybe Steve, that it's your rather over-familiar use of of expressions such as "pompous pontificating", "blah, blah", and, most interestingly, "All you flippin' self-styled experts. You really don't know what you're on about." about people you've never met that rather grates. I can see no personal attack on you before you came out with this stuff. Maybe you think it comes across as bluff straight-talking(?) - I don't know.
You started a post by saying that amplification is a complete waste of time. As I use it in every session, and I'm always well-received, and you've never heard me, I took that as an expression either of your ignorance or your perceived monopoly of thought on the matter. . Actually, I thought the discussion had got beyond that point . You seem to be dwelling slightly.
I was at a one-mic session in Gurteen once and the local postman and fluter was the fella that brought it in. He was the only one playing into it most of the time, but he used it as if he was the host of the Late Late Show when he would introduce other musicians and invite them to lead a tune. Then he would push it in front of whomever it was he introduced. When he came around to me he said into the mic, "And now, all the way from... (where did you say you were from?)" I whispered back, "San Francisco." And he continued, "All the way from San Francisco. His name is... uh... (what was your name again?)" I whispered back my name, and he continued, "His name is Jack and he plays the flute. And then he shoved the mic in front of me. Peter Horan was sitting next to me and we both instinctively scooted back. The postman pushed it closer and the both of us scooted again. I said, "I only play if Peter joins me... union rules." Peter chuckled and we both played a couple of tunes. Afterwards I leaned over to Peter and said, "Yer man seems to like the microphone a lot." And Peter giggled like a kid and replied, "Mums the word and Bob's his uncle."
I actually have a photo of the two of us playing at that very moment. It was back in 96 I think.
Yes, but I only use it for ceilidhs/barn dances. It's been a bit outmoded since the guitarist went and got a 300 watt system when mine was only 100w, but we never turned it full up anyway. That was good enough for crowds of 150 folk in a barn. When not in use it lives under the bed ( the bed is 6 foot off the floor ).
I loaned it out a few weeks ago to a lady who was holding a concert in the local library, and felt she needed a touch of sound reinforcement for her singers, and as I couldn't be there for the start of the evening I gave her my best pre-use pep talk. When I got there it was set so low it effectively did nothing. Maybe the use is psycological.
Wouldn't bother for sessions. As previously said, if they're going to talk they'll just talk louder.
I think he means dwelling as lingering, rather than inhabiting .... ?
Doom Bar is a strange beer to sell in a pub that's only a mile from Yattendon, home of the West Berkshire Brewery, producer of Dr Hexters Healer, Good Old Boy, Mr. Chubb's and the luscious Magg's Mild. I always assumed it must taste better back down in the wilds of Cornwall than after it's long journey North east ...
I use a nice little guitar amp with a leather carry-handle that uses six D cells with a minuscule lapel mic that I originally bought for my minidisc recorder. I took the lapel clip off and I hold the diminutive mic element in my hand-cup with the harp. If I shoved that in your face you'd need reading glasses to see it. It gets me by.
Hi Phantom
The flute player sounds like the well known eccentric Shamus Tansey He is still is like this, last time I saw him in was in Whitby North Yorkshire playing the same game in sessions .He is a regular at the South Sligo Summer School Tubbercurry
He was the guest Flute player in the Devish DVD if you want to see what he looks like more recently.
A great Flute player with some great stories but certainly has his own way of doing things that some like and others don’t.
I think I will now try the exam for the diplomatic service after that statement .
Dave -- he was a Tansey all right, but not Seamus. His name is Noel Tansey and he played flute whistle and drums in the Rising Sun Ceili Band with Fred Finn and Peter Horan. That group later became known as the Martin Wynne Ceili Group. Even though his name is Tansey, my understanding is that he's no relation to Seamus.
Some players who do the weekend/evenings routine, may buy a good mike, a cable and whatever stand you might need. A decent Shure or AKG instrument hypercardoid or straight pattern mike will onlt set you back $70 to $100. a 25 foot cable is $20.
Nice to have in the case or the trunk of the car if you need it. If you play flute or fiddle and want something more sophisticated it will set you bace alot more.
Do you have your own sound system?
Do you have your own sound system?
Had a recent experience that made me curious about how folks here view the matter:
An acquaintaince of mine recently began booking performers for a weekly "music night" at a restaurant-pub. The idea, as I understand it, is the musicians (whose genres have varied from Irish/Celtic to blues to pop/show tunes) are something between background noise and featured entertainment; management wants them heard, but not enough to overpower conversation.
When my acquaintance talked about getting me and an accompanist a gig at this place, she told me I'd have to provide my own sound. The restaurant is pretty new overall, as is their music series, so they're apparently not able or willing to invest in such equipment, at least not yet.
This created some difficulty, because I don't have a system of my own, and as I found out (not that it was a surprise) people who do are not very likely to lend them out. The gig wouldn't pay all that much anyway, so renting a system seemed illogical.
In fact, since this wasn't a big-time, make-or-break gig (and I ain't in it for the money anyway), I felt all the more sheepish about asking: It's not as if I was preparing to play in a sesveral hundred-seat concert hall for big bucks.
Anyway, I appear to have resolved the situation. But as I said, it left me a little curious. For those of you out there who, like me, are "part-time," evenings/weekends type of musicians -- do you have your own system, and do you insist on using it at all of your gigs? Or do you generally leave it up to the venue where you'll be playing? Have you found the investment -- not only the original purchase, but also the maintenance, repair, etc. -- to be worth it?
Just for clarification, I'm not really asking for advice or recommendations, per se. At this point, getting a sound system is _not_ a consideration for me. I've literally no room to keep it at home (barely have a corner squeezed out for my instruments), and frankly I just don't do enough gigs where I could imagine needing my own sound system; most of the places I've played, or want to play, have their own and I tend to trust that they know what they're doing.
But in the "for-sake-of-argument, never-know-what-the-future-may-bring" mode, I thought I'd poll the delegation...
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by sts
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I do own equipment. I prefer to play without, but some situations demand it, in consideration of your audience, so its a matter of venue and occasion. Really recent technology has reduced the size and weight of equipment, so I wouldn't rule out a small system that packs into a roller bag, or even a multi-channel powered speaker. There's a lot of options for a low-impact storable system.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by jhol111964
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I'm worried that there is a plethora of posts that have nothing whatsoever to do with ... "The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This web-site is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes."
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by ...
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
http://thesession.org/tunes/
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
So you don't have a sound system then Michael?
Most venues here have their own system but for places where they don't, folk beg and borrow from musicians they know,usually for an agreed fee.
One of the great places for meeting such musicians is at a session, where you might go to play jigs, reels and other dance tunes after exchanging tunes on this website and discussing them online.
I have my instruments set-up to be as "plug and play" -able as possible and I don't have a system - but I know a man who does
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Bren
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I have a system. We used to use it a lot as Belfast and other places used to have a lot of bookings for "Folk/Trad" bands. We are now more or less in semi-retirement, and use it on St Paddy's day.
The above however were "Gigs". Whenever a landlord suggests using the system at a session, I always explain that all that means is that the punters would have to talk louder. "Sessions", paid or unpaid, should not be electrified.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I have a mike, stand and small Marshall amp. Any bigger stuff has been supplied by other guys whom I've been in a band or amplified session with. They're all just big heavy black boxes full of eelecktronical stuff to me. And that just the other musicians. Some guys (and it's always guys, usually guitarists who'd previously been in rock bands) really relish all the preamble of setting up, pre-amps, equalisers, one-two, one-two, all that sh*te. Give me a small intimate acoustic session in a quiet wee dark pub in the back of beyond any day.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Yes.A Soundcraft 12 channel mixer,two Hi Tech 450 watt active speakers and three Berhinger microphones.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by dafydd
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I share a sound system with some fellow musicians. This is because quite a lot of the time we perform (and people pretend to listen) rather than sitting in the corner of a pub playing and pretending no one's listening (and people pretend not to listen).
I wouldn't be particularly happy about lending or hiring the equipment out (well, specifically, the cables - they always get wound incorrectly), and anyway, if someone got electrocuted... For these reasons I prefer to operate the equipment myself if it needed for concerts, etc.
When performing (wow, the p word twice) I prefer to use in house equipment if available, because then the sound isn't our responsibility and it's less equipment to lug about and you don't have to set up and dismantle.
In an ideal world we wouldn't use amplification but some of the old dears are getting awfully deaf.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Amplification is a complete waste of time.
The louder the volume of the music - the louder noise the 'audience' will make.
We have 4 year's experience of this:
www.goringunplugged.co.uk
Once a month. 200 'punters'. No amplification.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
When playing for one-off or annual community events or dances, our band usually rents the sound equipment, as there is seldom any provided. If decent stuff is available, AND
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
ahem, posted by accident.
If decent stuff is available, and can be set up/run by others, well and good. To attempt to manage some odds and ends of sound equipment which may be in dubious condition is not a lot of fun.
We had planned to buy some gear at one time, and got as far as one mike and stand, but couldn't decide what we really needed to cover all normal requirements.
If amplification is required, but the payment not enough to cover it, after pin money for the band, I would decline. As others have commented above, better to just have a session.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I played an amplified gig last Saturday (Some sort of Saint's day). The people in the pub loved it so much they shrieked and yelled to tell each other so over the amplified music.
If it had been acoustic, they could have shrieked and yelled much quiter and still conveyed those important pieces of information - and STILL drowned the music out
If people want to hear you - they will be quiet and listen. If they don't, they will bellow over any amount of amplification. If you want to be heard - play what people want to hear. If you simply want to play, have a session and anyone interested will come over and listen.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Agreed, Ottery. Except for dances. A larger band might do, depending on acoustics (many halls are horrible in that regard) but the caller has to be heard.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
agreed ...
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I possess a small acoustic amp for my guitar. The only reason I got it was to be able to play fingerstyle stuff in an acoustic setting where the other louder instruments would otherwise drown out the sound of the guitar. I just turn it off when doing chord accompaniment with plectrum. As a means of amplification it is much more user friendly than a PA system.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Donough
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I'd say it depends on the city in which you live and what the venue wants. Where I used to live the public transit was, well, crap. Everyone drove, so most venues expected us to bring all our own gear, including PA. Now I live in a city with a great bus system, I'm thrilled about not having to own a car, and any club or bar that wants live music knows that they must have a sound system - and usually a drum kit - because most of the musicians here don't own their own vehicle.
If the first is the case where you are, it might be wise to invest in a small PA - just a mixer/amp and a couple speakers (this allows you to do private gigs as well). But if you live in a city like I do, it's definately the bar's responsibility to provide sound.
Good luck with the gig!
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Fiddle Castro
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I'm a "professional" musician [I make my living from playing and teaching]...I'm suddenly thinking I'm blessed [in the decidedly blase city of Toronto, at least towards traditional music] in that most of the clubs have their own P.A. systems, and wouldn't think of asking musicians to come out and play for small money and also drag in a P.A. system [which in my case would require a taxi cause I don't have a car, but I do have a sound system]...if you like the gig and they treat you well and feed you and ply you with drink [if you want] and give you a bit of money at the end of the night you're doing well...otherwise, you're being taken advantage of in a big way, your skills and your devotion to the music are going really cheap, in a way I suspect you'd never let your day job go...music is worth more than that.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by havefiddlewilltravel
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I have a weekly gig like the one you describe--small restaurant, sometimes very noisy crowd, tiny PA provided--but we bring our own slightly (very slightly) bigger one for much better-fidelity sound. We're only fiddle and guitar, so there is no way anybody could hear us if we didn't use decent PA gear. It's a pain to haul and set up, but it's been a nice gig (as gigs go). The owner pays us, so we make the effort. We have been there about nine months now, every week with a few exceptions (illness, etc.).
One tip: Put your speaker(s) up on stands, about shoulder-high. Throws the sound over the heads of people sitting in front, so people in the back can hear. The ones sitting right in front can hear you directly--but without the speakers, they would be the only ones who could.
And yes, some of you are exactly right, this has nothing to do with playing good tunes. But for some situations, amplification is a necessary evil.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by John Galt
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I've come across the problem where people nearest the speakers will talk the loudest and the people at the back can't hear so well. Once band had some NXT (flat panel) speakers, which I didn't think were that loud. They were playing for dancing in a long hall. When I joined the dancers (one of those long sets where you go right to the other end of the hall) I was amazed that the sound seemed still detailed and just as loud at the far end. It almost defied physics! I now have a pair of these but sadly they don't seem to work so well at high volumes. But pretty impressive and worth a go if there are just 3 or 4 of you.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Yes, but only use it for playing for dances. I don't like the idea of amps in sessions, it encourages the loud-is-best contingency on electric guitars, pianos, midi uillean pipes, you name it.
And worst of all, someone will want to sing with amplification.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I play regularly with a couple of friends in a session where we are unamplified. Others have joined in the session and it works as session should with the musicians playing because they love the music and the other pub goers enjoying the music if they want to listen. A couple of the session members also do gigs and we use PA when necessary. Depends on the venue, quiet retaurant we do without PA pubs and the like where people will be noisy we use PA. I used a pub PA system once and it was a disaster so if you are going to do gigs rather than sessions a sound system is a worthy investment and with technology theses days it needn't be expensive or massively bulky.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by rochson
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I must say, I love all this pompous pontificating about "never amp yourself up blah, it ain't right, it just makes people talk louder blah." Sheesh. I play ITM on the harmonica in sessions with about six to eight other musicians in noisy pub settings. I am pretty good these days at getting a full tone and projecting it, but the plain fact of the matter is that, unamplified, I haven't a cat in hell's chance of being heard, at least not till late on when the pub is quietening down, when I love to play unplugged. So I have a little battery amp, and the other fellers would be appalled if I didn't use it . All you flippin' self-styled experts. You really don't know what you're on about.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I have a "portable" Peavey Escort that is a self contained thing... it all snaps together, all but mike stands. The speakers, which are decent, the powered mixer, the cords, the speaker stands all fit inside what looks like a big boom box. It has just four channels but you can expand it with another inexepensive mixer quite easily. It's great for pubs, and we've used it for some concerts holding 100+ people and there was no problem. You can find them used sometimes on ebay for under $200, and often the mikes and stands are thrown in.
For something smaller I have a little behringer amp, acoustic I think the model was AT108 but it's not here and I may be wrong. For $60 it's amazing, it's 15 watt but tons of volume with no distortion. It has two inputs with their own volume, and they share a mid, low and hig range control dial. I found if you have a third person though, that has a pickup with a volume control, you can plug them into the CD input! I did this by accident and it worked fine. If you want things like reverb, again, a small mixer with efects, not a powered one either... you just plug it into the amp and plug the instruments/mikes into the mixer. That little amp is the best $60 I have ever spent on sound.
Unfortunately most places expect you to bring sound, but the person bringing it should try to get a few extra $$ for lugging it. If you plan to do a lot of this, it's a good investment.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Depends on which band I or we play with. Our instruments each have the ability to be plugged in if necessary. A lot of dance halls have an acoustic instrument for me to use; but if we're going electric the dancers need the extra sound. Our stage band has a sound system as well; but if it's just the two of us we can keep our gigs low key.
None of the sessions we now attend are amplified. The one "session" we used to attend that was turned out to be more of a social ceili with the musicians on a stage and the punters coming to dance as well as socialize. But they still called it a session.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by vonnieestes
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I like that - I was playing at a gig last night where I had a little portable amp just to avoid having to thrash my fingers. What I take from a few of these replies is: if the stuff is portable, unobtrusive and good quality, it'll get used.
I agree with Steve Shaw above. You do need amplification sometimes. Even in sessions, sometimes the harp will be OK on its own, sometimes I need something just to bring up the bass so I can give my fingers a bit of a rest. That might sound like heresy, but it's OK if done in the best possible taste!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Now...if only you could get an "un-amplifier"- something that makes loud instruments quiet. I bet that'd sell like hot-cakes.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
"the matter is that, unamplified, I haven't a cat in hell's chance of being heard".
Sorry Steve, you would if they wanted to hear you
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
You simply do not understand at all Mr Ottery. I play an instrument that cannot be heard in a noisy pub setting and the circumstances and tradition of the place dictate that the clientele are not often all going to shut up at once just to hear me/us. Come along to the Tree Inn one night when I'm playing and you'll see what I'm about. The implication in your post will be demolished I assure you.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Sorry Steve, just winding you up for calling me pompous.
I've played in lots of pubs where punters can be noisy, though, and I do know that if you have a table of oiks next to you who make so much noise that you can't hear each other, if you play louder they DO get louder (Doesn't mean they get quiter if you play quieter, though!). And if you do something they want to hear, like sing a song, or play a slow tune that tickles their fancy - they go quiet and listen. And if you play reels and jigs all night, they talk over you as though you're not there, which is fine, if that's what they want to do, because it's not a performance - it's a session. In pubs where the punters ARE interested in the music, they tend to listen quite a lot.
But of course, Im probably mistaken, - as you say, I don't really know what I'm on about ...
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Oh and in answer to the original question (my original 'pompous' response was rattled out after returning, somewhat inebriated, from an amplified 'gig' that made me wonder why we bother), I share a p.a. system with some other musicians - we bought it with the proceeds of ceilis etc we've played. We can all use it individually, or collectively. I use it if it's a dance, or if I'm being paid to raise the noise level in a pub or club. But if it's the latter, I'm under no illusions that we're music in the sense that a juke-box is music, and really I wouldn't do it if I wasn't being paid.
I think that Bodhran Bliss and GeoffWright above are on a similar wavelength.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
The worst type are the ones who ask for a tune and then talk all the way through it. Then they ask half an hour later why you haven't played it yet. Death is too good for them.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
The gig that jhol111964 described at the start of this thread sounds dodgy to begin with, but if I agreed to do it I would definitely need a small sound system. I do have one that we use for weddings and dances. If a pub wants our band to perform I would expect them to have their own system, but this isn't always the case. If a pub wants a session I don't even consider bringing a sound system. If it's too noisy in a pub for a session then the pub shouldn't have a session -- they should hire a band and the band should be amplified.
If I go into a pub that advertises a session and I see amplification I'll turn and go back out. If I go into a pub and it's too noisy for a session I'll look for one in another pub that isn't as noisy. It's my opinion that the solution to a session in a noisy pub isn't amplification -- it's vacation -- in other words... go elsewhere instead.
We worked out an arrangement with the publican at our local which is as follows: if it starts getting too noisy where we are in the center of the pub we can relocate to an area of the room that isn't as noisy. If that fails we can choose to call it a night and go away. Because the publican supports the session regardless of whether or not it makes any money we have no problem waving the fee on such occasions and just come back when the pub is as it normally is on a Sunday or Tuesday night. So far we've only taken the option to abandon the session twice since we established it. It’s comforting to have that option.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Mark, that is so true ....
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I should like to suggest that, as we all have different setups and different traditions in the pubs we play in, trying to apply some theoretical desirable standard that ought to apply to all apropos the quietness of the clientele or whether we use amps or not simply don't wash. ITM is too full of such rule-making: no amps, the pub should go into hush mode when we play, never learn tunes from dots, ornament it this or that way... I utterly love to play unamplified. I can project with my genuine tone and use my hands more, etc., ad nauseam. I do it whenever the pub's quiet or when I accompany a singer or late on just before we go home. I'd really love to do it all the time, but life my end simply ain't like that. But I enjoy my Friday nights and I struggle to stop the guys from turning my volume up even more. I simply want to get my little instrument up level with the fiddles and mandolins whilst keeping a clean sound. I want to blend, basically. If that sounds like I'm smahing the ITM rule-book to pieces, so be it. But that's how ITM is in Bude and we don't get too many complaints!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Smashing innit.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Steve... I'm trying to visualize your gig. Is it a session, or a gig for your band? Is anyone else amplified or are you the only one?
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
It's a session and I'm the only amplified feller. Eyebrows may be raised at some of our content but a session we be. We are who we are and we have a blast every time. We get paid handsomely in free beer, and it's Doom Bar for Pete's sake.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Who's Pete?
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Strangely enough, we drink Doom Bar at a session I play at once a month - it's a beer a long way from home!
I think maybe Steve, that it's your rather over-familiar use of of expressions such as "pompous pontificating", "blah, blah", and, most interestingly, "All you flippin' self-styled experts. You really don't know what you're on about." about people you've never met that rather grates. I can see no personal attack on you before you came out with this stuff. Maybe you think it comes across as bluff straight-talking(?) - I don't know.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
You started a post by saying that amplification is a complete waste of time. As I use it in every session, and I'm always well-received, and you've never heard me, I took that as an expression either of your ignorance or your perceived monopoly of thought on the matter. . Actually, I thought the discussion had got beyond that point . You seem to be dwelling slightly.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Gawd, my full stops are all over the place, period.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
What do you bloody drink, Harp lager?
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I was at a one-mic session in Gurteen once and the local postman and fluter was the fella that brought it in. He was the only one playing into it most of the time, but he used it as if he was the host of the Late Late Show when he would introduce other musicians and invite them to lead a tune. Then he would push it in front of whomever it was he introduced. When he came around to me he said into the mic, "And now, all the way from... (where did you say you were from?)" I whispered back, "San Francisco." And he continued, "All the way from San Francisco. His name is... uh... (what was your name again?)" I whispered back my name, and he continued, "His name is Jack and he plays the flute. And then he shoved the mic in front of me. Peter Horan was sitting next to me and we both instinctively scooted back. The postman pushed it closer and the both of us scooted again. I said, "I only play if Peter joins me... union rules." Peter chuckled and we both played a couple of tunes. Afterwards I leaned over to Peter and said, "Yer man seems to like the microphone a lot." And Peter giggled like a kid and replied, "Mums the word and Bob's his uncle."
I actually have a photo of the two of us playing at that very moment. It was back in 96 I think.
Here it is: http://www.tipsyhouse.com/peterandme.jpg
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Yes, but I only use it for ceilidhs/barn dances. It's been a bit outmoded since the guitarist went and got a 300 watt system when mine was only 100w, but we never turned it full up anyway. That was good enough for crowds of 150 folk in a barn. When not in use it lives under the bed ( the bed is 6 foot off the floor ).
I loaned it out a few weeks ago to a lady who was holding a concert in the local library, and felt she needed a touch of sound reinforcement for her singers, and as I couldn't be there for the start of the evening I gave her my best pre-use pep talk. When I got there it was set so low it effectively did nothing. Maybe the use is psycological.
Wouldn't bother for sessions. As previously said, if they're going to talk they'll just talk louder.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I think he means dwelling as lingering, rather than inhabiting .... ?
Doom Bar is a strange beer to sell in a pub that's only a mile from Yattendon, home of the West Berkshire Brewery, producer of Dr Hexters Healer, Good Old Boy, Mr. Chubb's and the luscious Magg's Mild. I always assumed it must taste better back down in the wilds of Cornwall than after it's long journey North east ...
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
I use a nice little guitar amp with a leather carry-handle that uses six D cells with a minuscule lapel mic that I originally bought for my minidisc recorder. I took the lapel clip off and I hold the diminutive mic element in my hand-cup with the harp. If I shoved that in your face you'd need reading glasses to see it.
It gets me by.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Overall it sounds as if Doom Bar served upcountry is tantamount to casting pearls before swine.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Hi Phantom
The flute player sounds like the well known eccentric Shamus Tansey He is still is like this, last time I saw him in was in Whitby North Yorkshire playing the same game in sessions .He is a regular at the South Sligo Summer School Tubbercurry
He was the guest Flute player in the Devish DVD if you want to see what he looks like more recently.
A great Flute player with some great stories but certainly has his own way of doing things that some like and others don’t.
I think I will now try the exam for the diplomatic service after that statement .
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Um - pearls before Otters maybe(!)
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Dave -- he was a Tansey all right, but not Seamus. His name is Noel Tansey and he played flute whistle and drums in the Rising Sun Ceili Band with Fred Finn and Peter Horan. That group later became known as the Martin Wynne Ceili Group. Even though his name is Tansey, my understanding is that he's no relation to Seamus.
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Do you have your own sound system?
Some players who do the weekend/evenings routine, may buy a good mike, a cable and whatever stand you might need. A decent Shure or AKG instrument hypercardoid or straight pattern mike will onlt set you back $70 to $100. a 25 foot cable is $20.
Nice to have in the case or the trunk of the car if you need it. If you play flute or fiddle and want something more sophisticated it will set you bace alot more.
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by zippydw