What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Manny times in sessions players will take off on a reel at 110 and by the time you get though it once your at 126 and by the time you end it there are no box players playing. So Setting and keeping a good time is important , but what speed ?
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Two speeds: "Fast" and "bloody fast".
Seriously, though, I don't think you can generalise and pick exact speeds for all jigs and reels. There are so many factors involved: skill, temperament and preferences of the musicians present, whether or not, the tune sounds ok played at a particular speed, time of the day, the general craic and atmosphere, amount of drink taken, phase of the moon, number of people wearing red socks, weather and humidity levels... you get the picture!
A simple rule of thumb, though: if people can't keep up, you're playing too fast.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Skill and speed often aren't related as one might expect: less experienced players sometimes play very fast, while others who are accomplished Irish trad players savor the tunes. And a lot of the 'big name' bands can give the impression that speed is important.
Things are more rigid when it comes to playing for dancers, but when playing tunes for listening, I like to pick a tempo that suits my mood, the tune, and the players gathered. Like Conan said, it's variable--just one more tool for expression.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Conan and tintin's posts are both good. It sounds like I'm being flipant if I answer that the best speed is simply not too fast or too slow. It's absolutly something ypou cannot measure. It's something you simply know
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Don't do 70 in a 40 zone. If you find yourself in a 70 zone and can't in keep up, it might be best to sit out, to avoid doing yourself an injury. After a decade of playing this music, I still marvel at the speed some people play at. Personally, I am prevented by physiological limitations from playing at more than about 55mph - any faster and the neurons start misfiring and the tendons pinging.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
For what it's worth, here's some statistics from a big database I made (last updated August 2005, I think) of tempos from the commercial recordings of Irish music that I own, used to teach some basic statistics to the students in my Math and Music course. The data is only for the first tune in each set. I've broken it down by regional style as best as I could (ruling out entirely a few people with controversial and idiosyncratic personal styles).
I'll report the minimum, first quartile, median, third quartile, maximum, and number of tunes for each region for which I have more than a tiny amount of data. (Even so, some of the data is extremely limited and represents only a few musicians. For example, all of the Leitrim data is from the McNamara family.) I'll also report the composite data for these regions combined, but those skew the statistics because Clare is so heavily represented.
I think it makes sense to look at the interquartile range (the range from the 1st to 3rd quartiles), that being the middle 50% of tempos.
Keep in mind that this is heavily biased by my tastes as reflected in what I buy. It also represents (mostly) what professional and semi-professional musicians do in a recording studio rather than in a session. One of these days (maybe after I retire) I'll gather data from my session recordings.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Play at a speed that allows you to properly ornament the tune. I like to add a lot of ornamentation - subtle & tasteful, don't get carried away with mad stuff. Clarity is more important than speed.
Allow yourself to do what you want with the tune. Play for yourself and for the discerning ear. Don't try to impress the boy racers. Do you see Martin Hayes showing off how fast he can play? Believe me, he can play fast when he needs to. He just chooses not to. Take a mature approach.
Granted I play a gig in a noisy pub where we sometimes play at a mile a minute. That's just the culture of that particular session. When in Rome and all that.
Basically, there is no "standard" speed. Experience will tell you what you must do in any given circumstance. Listen to lots of trad, and get as much session experience as you can. There's only one way to get it - get out there and play.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: The speed should remain consistent throughout the set of tunes. The set should end at the same speed they started at.
Doesn't always happen like that mind you - there's usually drink involved - but that's the general idea.
Then adds:
"To play the music at a quicker tempo detracts from the melody; to play it somewhat slower can do no harm. It was customary for many of the older musicians when playing for themselves to adopt a slower pace than that demanded by the dancers."
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
"Do you see Martin Hayes showing off how fast he can play?"
Funny you ask---I went to see him a few weeks ago and he played the fastest version of Farewell to Ireland that I've ever heard in my life. Fully ornamented, rhythm intact, bow was a blur---it was hard to believe anyone could play like that. His whole concert was fast---he must have been in a fast mood that night.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
It may be a tiny bit hasty to say "there is no "standard" speed". That's clearly true in Irish music, but we don't know where al53 is from or what type of music is involved. I can't find the data right now, but I think in Cape Breton music, there's a much, much narrower range for tempos (at least for reels). It's been a couple of years since I looked at it, but I think you'd find about 80-90 percent of reels played in the 108-116 range, and probably 98% in the 104-120 range.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
data? come on now
It's as simple as: If you are struggling, it's too fast. Simple as that. And if you have even the slightest of doubts, take it down a notch.
Oddly though, and this is perhaps more pertinent, how slow can you play it? It's a common fault, especially but not exclusively with beginners, that they are unable to play slow.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I'm afraid I haven't got a handle on all this technical stuff with numbers for each type of tune but rather rely on listening to music by greats such as Joe Cooley, Paddy Canny, Tulla and Kilfenora Céilí Bands, etc. It's not about speed but rhythm and lift and most importantly the draiocht or nyah which is an essential ingredient of traditional music. Speed can destroy the music and this was summed up marvellously in a Treoir article some years ago by Wayne Webster, a fiddle player from New York - see http://stage.comhaltas.com/music/treoir/detail/speed_kills/.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Too many good tunes are spoiled by being played too fast.
Playing slow is sometimes harder than playing fast - you have to do more with the notes than let them zing by in a blur.
Cape Bretoners do seem to stick to pretty rigid tempos, but that's because their music is for dancing. 110ish for reels 126ish for jigs.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I think each tune has its own tempo. Something like Em Toss the Feathers or Humours of Tulla, unless you really do something to them then the "right" speed (certainly not set in stone!) is quite fast. Other reels however, than are more 'notey', maybe the Curlew or The Old Copperplate, needn't go as fast. Obviously it is possible to play any tune at any speed (within reason), I just feel as though each tune has a character, and part of that character is a speed which suits it well.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Apologies you are correct some did but why not more of them ?
I think and worry that many of us dont have enough connection with the dancing . It can help playing for many people .and its fun too
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Personally, I enjoy playing on the slower side, because I have some hope of keeping it musical. That chart Gary posted was very interesting and I think I tend toward the slower side of the middle....
The only time I worry about strict tempos is when playing for step dancers...
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I think I can understand a dancer saying that the music isn't enough about dancing any more and that musos don't think about the dancers when they play, but I have a question for dancers as well. Obviously the best dancing will come when the dancers and musicians are properly listening to each other and connecting musically. But it seems that to many dancers (I don't actually know any Irish dancers personally, not competition dancers anyway, and only play for dancers occasionally) the music is just a beat and nothing more. I'm not going to generalise and say that it is universal or anything. But I think it does exist in Irish dance and many other forms of dance. A dancer (not Irish) once told me she couldn't stand music of any kind. Now, I don't understand that at all, but it does seem to be a bit of an attitude among dancers (usually younger, but again I don't want to generalise.). All right, that'll do. Anyway, what do dancers think of this?
PS I hope I haven't offended anybody, I didn't mean to.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
As someone who dances regularly I totally disagree with the statement that music is nothing more than a beat. That sounds like the statement of someone inflicted with stepdanceitis, a complaint brought on by competitions, strange costumes and wigs. You would never hear it from a Set Dancer
I lament both competitions and some sessions have divorced the music and the dance. I have been at many great sessions and combined dances in pubs and in people’s homes .Good music can be a great lift to the dancing and dancing can be a lift to the music and a good time was had by all.
I also believe that many musicians could do with learning to dance themselves, it will improve their timing and discipline.( and get them out of the house more often )
There is a myth that you need pianos and drum kits to have a dance You don’t, as a dancer I don’t need them and frankly they get in the way as far as I am concerned .So if you have a nice wooden floor in your session why not invite some Set Dancers and ask them to teach you to dance You only need a space about 3x3 m. It’s good for you so go for it!!
If you are shy I am running a beginners workshop at the Moor and Coast Festival Whitby North Yorkshire ,May Bank Holiday (Plug Plug !)
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Dave has an important point which cannot be stressed enough - the "correct" (a dubious word in it'self) tempo for a tune is the speed at which it would be danced.
That said, different dance styles need tunes at different speeds - rapper dancers need their jigs quite fast, but played for a ceilidh you'd most likely find your dancers weren't able to clear the sets in time. The idea of "what feels comfortable for the musicians", although seemingly sensible in a session, misses the fact that although we no longer play for dancing the tunes we play exist because of the dance tradition.
Re: "music nothing more than a beat" - it's known that the shepherds of Northumberland, when playing for all night celidhs, would quite happily repeat the same 10 or so tunes to a variety of different dances with no complaining from the dancers!
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Michael, I agree with you 100% that "It's as simple as: If you are struggling, it's too fast. Simple as that. And if you have even the slightest of doubts, take it down a notch."
But that answer only works when the question is "how fast should *I* play?" It sounds like al53's question is more like "how can I convince others, who are oblivious or perhaps even defiant, that they are playing too fast?" If you say "I can't keep up," or "your playing is sloppy at that speed," they're likely to tell you to get lost. The data gives you an angle from which to approach the problem more diplomatically. Or at least with a few arrows in your quiver.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
The statistics are a really helpful guide - thanks for that work!
It's playing tunes too fast that makes some Irish music all sound the same.
"It all sounds the same" may often be said in jest, but there's many a true word spoken that way. And the reason the saying is funny is because it is often only too true, and the reason is usually too much speed.
It goes along with knowing too many tunes that are not properly valued.
A tough question for the statistics buffs: what is the correlation between people who play too fast and people who don't know the names of most of the tunes they say they know? High, I would bet.
All in my humble opinion, of course.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
If you want to show off you'll play at whatever speed you can muster to get yourself precisely to the limit, and no further, beyond which you'll fall off. The faster the tempo the smaller the penis touch. Lamentably, certain "great" musicians love to show off thus in their recordings. I wouldn't like to name fiddlers' names but gosh, can't De Dannan (of old) and Four men play reels fast... If you know your own limits and Irish music has a heart and soul for you, you'll know what speed to play without anyone having to tell you.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
No, the "It all sounds the same" thing comes, in part, from people playing all their tunes at the same speed, whatever that speed. But it's not just speed, it's llso playing with the same swing. Vary it.
But I agree with the thing about knowing too many tunes, that desire to cram them in. The fashionable desire is to play as millions of tunes as you can, but the best way to value (I like that) tunes is to play them over and over while varying their tempos and swing.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
"It goes along with knowing too many tunes that are not properly valued.
A tough question for the statistics buffs: what is the correlation between people who play too fast and people who don't know the names of most of the tunes they say they know? High, I would bet."
That is an interesting theory - but yet again along the "they have no soul" lines....which as said before - how do you know that the person doesnt value the music just because they dont the names of tunes. Not trying to flog a dead horse here but it seems there are an awful high number of mind readers on this site....now will someone please please do some stats on that as I for one would be very interested to know just how many mind readers there actually are...and if it does in fact have any correlation with being a trad musician.
I think Conan hits the nail on the head with his post and I agree 100%.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
"correlation between people who play too fast and people who don't know the names of most of the tunes they say they know ... high, I would bet " isn't quite as simple as that. It's a multi-factorial problem - two other factors that come to mind being the player's age, and the learning environment (i.e. other players in the session not knowing the name of the tune, so making it next to impossible for the questioner to find out in a reasonable time, by which time he will have learnt the tune by osmosis anyway).
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I have a particular speed and style I like to use for reels and jigs. I know that at that speed I can enjoy the tune and play it properly (or if you want to put it in thesession.org terms: 'ornament' it properly). I also know that at that speed it gives my fellow musicians the space to enjoy it themselves and be creative with it. Said speed varies according to who I'm playing with and how many beers I've had, how tired or hungover I am etc, but it's still the same speed in my head.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Sadly I don't have the info to hand, but I suspect that the "musicologist" in question would have been Alastair Anderson and I'd doubt he left. Although actually, I think what I meant (now I think about it) is that they would play the same tune 5 or so times (often just playing one tune per dance) during the course of an evening as it worked for multiple dances.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
bb wondered "how do you know that the person doesnt value the music just because they dont the names of tunes"
I don't. My whole point is that I wonder. It just seems likely that people who don't bother with the names of tunes don't value them as much as those who adopt a more traditional approach in which each tune has a history, an origin, a lineage even, stories associated with it and so forth. My question is whether my hunch is right or not.
Gosh bb, it's so easy to push your buttons!
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I dont know the names of hardly any tunes I play, and I play at a fair speed. Its very depressing to learn that I dont value the tunes as much as someone who knows the names of the tunes they play.
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
So are you saying that my guess was right, at least in your own case? (Not that one case adds up to a correlation, of course.) And are you saying that your speed is what I would call "too fast"? That you see yourself as one of the people I might be construed as having, by implication, criticised? (As if that matters very much!) In short, are you saying that "the cap fits"?
But more seriously, I would feel that someone who, for instance, knows things like the name of a tune, where it was learnt, what people or events or places it might be associated with (particularly if it's a tune associated with a famous player), any lore about its origins and so on could reasonably be thought to value the tune more than someone who does not know it's name, origin or anything else but is able to play along with it at high speed in a session. It seems to me quite a reasonable use of the word.
To be clear, I am not saying that you, I or anyone else in particular matches either of those descriptions - if you feel you do, then ok, I'll believe you.
And of course, whether it *matters* if someone values tunes in that sense or not is another, different and open question. It is perfectly fair to think that it does not matter a toss.
My guess is, as it was yesterday, that there is a high correlation between people who play too fast (or, if you don't like "too" fast you might prefer "very" fast) and people who don't know the names of many of the tunes they can play.
But maybe I'm wrong - maybe the very fast players tend to be the ones who *do* know most of the names. So far, though, it's still my guess.
What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Manny times in sessions players will take off on a reel at 110 and by the time you get though it once your at 126 and by the time you end it there are no box players playing. So Setting and keeping a good time is important , but what speed ?
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by al@the Box Office
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Depends on whether you are a slick musician from the RSAMD or not, eh John!
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Two speeds: "Fast" and "bloody fast".
Seriously, though, I don't think you can generalise and pick exact speeds for all jigs and reels. There are so many factors involved: skill, temperament and preferences of the musicians present, whether or not, the tune sounds ok played at a particular speed, time of the day, the general craic and atmosphere, amount of drink taken, phase of the moon, number of people wearing red socks, weather and humidity levels... you get the picture!
A simple rule of thumb, though: if people can't keep up, you're playing too fast.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Skill and speed often aren't related as one might expect: less experienced players sometimes play very fast, while others who are accomplished Irish trad players savor the tunes. And a lot of the 'big name' bands can give the impression that speed is important.
Things are more rigid when it comes to playing for dancers, but when playing tunes for listening, I like to pick a tempo that suits my mood, the tune, and the players gathered. Like Conan said, it's variable--just one more tool for expression.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by mcswiss
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Conan and tintin's posts are both good. It sounds like I'm being flipant if I answer that the best speed is simply not too fast or too slow. It's absolutly something ypou cannot measure. It's something you simply know
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by ...
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Don't do 70 in a 40 zone. If you find yourself in a 70 zone and can't in keep up, it might be best to sit out, to avoid doing yourself an injury. After a decade of playing this music, I still marvel at the speed some people play at. Personally, I am prevented by physiological limitations from playing at more than about 55mph - any faster and the neurons start misfiring and the tendons pinging.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
This info might help you al53:
http://driving.drive-alive.co.uk/driving-in-ireland.htm
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
For what it's worth, here's some statistics from a big database I made (last updated August 2005, I think) of tempos from the commercial recordings of Irish music that I own, used to teach some basic statistics to the students in my Math and Music course. The data is only for the first tune in each set. I've broken it down by regional style as best as I could (ruling out entirely a few people with controversial and idiosyncratic personal styles).
I'll report the minimum, first quartile, median, third quartile, maximum, and number of tunes for each region for which I have more than a tiny amount of data. (Even so, some of the data is extremely limited and represents only a few musicians. For example, all of the Leitrim data is from the McNamara family.) I'll also report the composite data for these regions combined, but those skew the statistics because Clare is so heavily represented.
I think it makes sense to look at the interquartile range (the range from the 1st to 3rd quartiles), that being the middle 50% of tempos.
Keep in mind that this is heavily biased by my tastes as reflected in what I buy. It also represents (mostly) what professional and semi-professional musicians do in a recording studio rather than in a session. One of these days (maybe after I retire) I'll gather data from my session recordings.
REELS
Region [min, Q1, med, Q2, max; num] IQ range
Clare [71, 101, 107, 112, 131; 358] 101-112
Galway [86, 98, 102, 106, 126; 92] 98-106
Donegal [53, 109, 116, 119, 126; 95] 109-119
Sligo [100, 109, 112, 116, 126; 77] 109-116
Sliabh Luachra [98, 108, 112, 116, 132; 45] 108-116
New York [62, 100, 104, 108, 116; 22] 100-108
Leitrim [82, 96, 98, 104, 109; 17] 96-104
Dublin [74, 106, 112, 118, 124; 17] 106-118
Overall [53, 102, 108, 114, 132; 723] 102-114
JIGS
Region [min, Q1, med, Q2, max; num] IQ range
Clare [92, 114, 121, 127, 137; 179] 114-127
Galway [105, 111, 116, 120, 147; 41] 111-120
Donegal [96, 127, 131, 139, 148; 40] 127-139
Sligo [112, 123, 131, 142, 157; 33] 123-142
Sliabh Luachra [106, 122, 129, 138, 148; 32] 122-138
New York [115, 123, 125, 127, 133; 14] 123-125
Leitrim [104, 107, 113, 115, 123; 9] 107-115
Dublin [120, 122, 127, 133, 137; 14] 122-133
Overall [92, 116, 123, 130, 157; 362] 116-130
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Play at a speed that allows you to properly ornament the tune. I like to add a lot of ornamentation - subtle & tasteful, don't get carried away with mad stuff. Clarity is more important than speed.
Allow yourself to do what you want with the tune. Play for yourself and for the discerning ear. Don't try to impress the boy racers. Do you see Martin Hayes showing off how fast he can play? Believe me, he can play fast when he needs to. He just chooses not to. Take a mature approach.
Granted I play a gig in a noisy pub where we sometimes play at a mile a minute. That's just the culture of that particular session. When in Rome and all that.
Basically, there is no "standard" speed. Experience will tell you what you must do in any given circumstance. Listen to lots of trad, and get as much session experience as you can. There's only one way to get it - get out there and play.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by tradshark
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: The speed should remain consistent throughout the set of tunes. The set should end at the same speed they started at.
Doesn't always happen like that mind you - there's usually drink involved - but that's the general idea.
Best of luck with your studies.
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by tradshark
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Not so sure about 'generally accepted' speeds, but Breandán Breathnach gives these speeds:
Double Jigs 127
Single Jigs 137
Slip Jigs 144
Reels 224
Hornpipes 180
Then adds:
"To play the music at a quicker tempo detracts from the melody; to play it somewhat slower can do no harm. It was customary for many of the older musicians when playing for themselves to adopt a slower pace than that demanded by the dancers."
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Tigermoth
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
just get a good bodhran player and play at his/her pace................
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Cork was left out of the list stats Roy Keane was right
# Posted on March 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
"Do you see Martin Hayes showing off how fast he can play?"
Funny you ask---I went to see him a few weeks ago and he played the fastest version of Farewell to Ireland that I've ever heard in my life. Fully ornamented, rhythm intact, bow was a blur---it was hard to believe anyone could play like that. His whole concert was fast---he must have been in a fast mood that night.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
It may be a tiny bit hasty to say "there is no "standard" speed". That's clearly true in Irish music, but we don't know where al53 is from or what type of music is involved. I can't find the data right now, but I think in Cape Breton music, there's a much, much narrower range for tempos (at least for reels). It's been a couple of years since I looked at it, but I think you'd find about 80-90 percent of reels played in the 108-116 range, and probably 98% in the 104-120 range.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
data? come on now
It's as simple as: If you are struggling, it's too fast. Simple as that. And if you have even the slightest of doubts, take it down a notch.
Oddly though, and this is perhaps more pertinent, how slow can you play it? It's a common fault, especially but not exclusively with beginners, that they are unable to play slow.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by ...
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I'm afraid I haven't got a handle on all this technical stuff with numbers for each type of tune but rather rely on listening to music by greats such as Joe Cooley, Paddy Canny, Tulla and Kilfenora Céilí Bands, etc. It's not about speed but rhythm and lift and most importantly the draiocht or nyah which is an essential ingredient of traditional music. Speed can destroy the music and this was summed up marvellously in a Treoir article some years ago by Wayne Webster, a fiddle player from New York - see http://stage.comhaltas.com/music/treoir/detail/speed_kills/.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Play the tune at the speed you hear the tune in your head. And keep it at that. Always works for me and the people I play with. Simple.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Too many good tunes are spoiled by being played too fast.
Playing slow is sometimes harder than playing fast - you have to do more with the notes than let them zing by in a blur.
Cape Bretoners do seem to stick to pretty rigid tempos, but that's because their music is for dancing. 110ish for reels 126ish for jigs.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I try to play at the speed at which Danny changes his pen names, but sometimes I can't keep up.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I think each tune has its own tempo. Something like Em Toss the Feathers or Humours of Tulla, unless you really do something to them then the "right" speed (certainly not set in stone!) is quite fast. Other reels however, than are more 'notey', maybe the Curlew or The Old Copperplate, needn't go as fast. Obviously it is possible to play any tune at any speed (within reason), I just feel as though each tune has a character, and part of that character is a speed which suits it well.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Who is Danny? I can't keep up either.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I think its quite sad that no one thinks to mention dancing ,after all its one of the things that the music was written for.;-(
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
They did bazouki_Dave, you must have been scanning the thread too fast...
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Apologies you are correct some did but why not more of them ?
I think and worry that many of us dont have enough connection with the dancing . It can help playing for many people .and its fun too
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
"The way some of them play these days, they ought to be given speeding tickets."
-- Joe Burke
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by brianc
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Maclean, I think you'll find that Danny is a latter-day incarnation of one of the minor ancient Greek polymorphic deities, probably Proteus.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I thought the Greek deities were modal rather than minor. And some of them even had a little pent-up tonic now and again.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Personally, I enjoy playing on the slower side, because I have some hope of keeping it musical. That chart Gary posted was very interesting and I think I tend toward the slower side of the middle....
The only time I worry about strict tempos is when playing for step dancers...
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by azfiddle
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I think I can understand a dancer saying that the music isn't enough about dancing any more and that musos don't think about the dancers when they play, but I have a question for dancers as well. Obviously the best dancing will come when the dancers and musicians are properly listening to each other and connecting musically. But it seems that to many dancers (I don't actually know any Irish dancers personally, not competition dancers anyway, and only play for dancers occasionally) the music is just a beat and nothing more. I'm not going to generalise and say that it is universal or anything. But I think it does exist in Irish dance and many other forms of dance. A dancer (not Irish) once told me she couldn't stand music of any kind. Now, I don't understand that at all, but it does seem to be a bit of an attitude among dancers (usually younger, but again I don't want to generalise.). All right, that'll do. Anyway, what do dancers think of this?
PS I hope I haven't offended anybody, I didn't mean to.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
As someone who dances regularly I totally disagree with the statement that music is nothing more than a beat. That sounds like the statement of someone inflicted with stepdanceitis, a complaint brought on by competitions, strange costumes and wigs. You would never hear it from a Set Dancer
I lament both competitions and some sessions have divorced the music and the dance. I have been at many great sessions and combined dances in pubs and in people’s homes .Good music can be a great lift to the dancing and dancing can be a lift to the music and a good time was had by all.
I also believe that many musicians could do with learning to dance themselves, it will improve their timing and discipline.( and get them out of the house more often )
There is a myth that you need pianos and drum kits to have a dance You don’t, as a dancer I don’t need them and frankly they get in the way as far as I am concerned .So if you have a nice wooden floor in your session why not invite some Set Dancers and ask them to teach you to dance You only need a space about 3x3 m. It’s good for you so go for it!!
If you are shy I am running a beginners workshop at the Moor and Coast Festival Whitby North Yorkshire ,May Bank Holiday (Plug Plug !)
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Whoops here is the link I forgot
http://www.moorandcoast.co.uk
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Sounds great Dave, I'd love to come - it's just that I live several thousand kilometres away - and!! - I don't have a holiday on May Bank Day!
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
;)
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Dave has an important point which cannot be stressed enough - the "correct" (a dubious word in it'self) tempo for a tune is the speed at which it would be danced.
That said, different dance styles need tunes at different speeds - rapper dancers need their jigs quite fast, but played for a ceilidh you'd most likely find your dancers weren't able to clear the sets in time. The idea of "what feels comfortable for the musicians", although seemingly sensible in a session, misses the fact that although we no longer play for dancing the tunes we play exist because of the dance tradition.
Re: "music nothing more than a beat" - it's known that the shepherds of Northumberland, when playing for all night celidhs, would quite happily repeat the same 10 or so tunes to a variety of different dances with no complaining from the dancers!
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Andy V
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Michael, I agree with you 100% that "It's as simple as: If you are struggling, it's too fast. Simple as that. And if you have even the slightest of doubts, take it down a notch."
But that answer only works when the question is "how fast should *I* play?" It sounds like al53's question is more like "how can I convince others, who are oblivious or perhaps even defiant, that they are playing too fast?" If you say "I can't keep up," or "your playing is sloppy at that speed," they're likely to tell you to get lost. The data gives you an angle from which to approach the problem more diplomatically. Or at least with a few arrows in your quiver.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
My playing has been said to be "half fast".
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by drone
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
"the shepherds of Northumberland, when playing for all night celidhs, would quite happily repeat the same 10 or so tunes"
What, the same bleating tunes over and over?
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Maybe they played another 500 when the musicologist had taken his leave. Nights in Northumberland can be very long...
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
The statistics are a really helpful guide - thanks for that work!
It's playing tunes too fast that makes some Irish music all sound the same.
"It all sounds the same" may often be said in jest, but there's many a true word spoken that way. And the reason the saying is funny is because it is often only too true, and the reason is usually too much speed.
It goes along with knowing too many tunes that are not properly valued.
A tough question for the statistics buffs: what is the correlation between people who play too fast and people who don't know the names of most of the tunes they say they know? High, I would bet.
All in my humble opinion, of course.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
If you want to show off you'll play at whatever speed you can muster to get yourself precisely to the limit, and no further, beyond which you'll fall off. The faster the tempo the smaller the penis touch. Lamentably, certain "great" musicians love to show off thus in their recordings. I wouldn't like to name fiddlers' names but gosh, can't De Dannan (of old) and Four men play reels fast...
If you know your own limits and Irish music has a heart and soul for you, you'll know what speed to play without anyone having to tell you.
# Posted on March 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
No, the "It all sounds the same" thing comes, in part, from people playing all their tunes at the same speed, whatever that speed. But it's not just speed, it's llso playing with the same swing. Vary it.
But I agree with the thing about knowing too many tunes, that desire to cram them in. The fashionable desire is to play as millions of tunes as you can, but the best way to value (I like that) tunes is to play them over and over while varying their tempos and swing.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by ...
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
"It goes along with knowing too many tunes that are not properly valued.
A tough question for the statistics buffs: what is the correlation between people who play too fast and people who don't know the names of most of the tunes they say they know? High, I would bet."
That is an interesting theory - but yet again along the "they have no soul" lines....which as said before - how do you know that the person doesnt value the music just because they dont the names of tunes. Not trying to flog a dead horse here but it seems there are an awful high number of mind readers on this site....now will someone please please do some stats on that as I for one would be very interested to know just how many mind readers there actually are...and if it does in fact have any correlation with being a trad musician.
I think Conan hits the nail on the head with his post and I agree 100%.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by bb
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Yep, Conan's is ther best post
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by ...
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I think your's is ther best post Micheal. I love doing posts like this that don't actually contribute anything to the thread.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
"correlation between people who play too fast and people who don't know the names of most of the tunes they say they know ... high, I would bet " isn't quite as simple as that. It's a multi-factorial problem - two other factors that come to mind being the player's age, and the learning environment (i.e. other players in the session not knowing the name of the tune, so making it next to impossible for the questioner to find out in a reasonable time, by which time he will have learnt the tune by osmosis anyway).
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I have a particular speed and style I like to use for reels and jigs. I know that at that speed I can enjoy the tune and play it properly (or if you want to put it in thesession.org terms: 'ornament' it properly). I also know that at that speed it gives my fellow musicians the space to enjoy it themselves and be creative with it. Said speed varies according to who I'm playing with and how many beers I've had, how tired or hungover I am etc, but it's still the same speed in my head.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Sadly I don't have the info to hand, but I suspect that the "musicologist" in question would have been Alastair Anderson and I'd doubt he left. Although actually, I think what I meant (now I think about it) is that they would play the same tune 5 or so times (often just playing one tune per dance) during the course of an evening as it worked for multiple dances.
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Andy V
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
bb wondered "how do you know that the person doesnt value the music just because they dont the names of tunes"
I don't. My whole point is that I wonder. It just seems likely that people who don't bother with the names of tunes don't value them as much as those who adopt a more traditional approach in which each tune has a history, an origin, a lineage even, stories associated with it and so forth. My question is whether my hunch is right or not.
Gosh bb, it's so easy to push your buttons!
# Posted on March 25th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
I dont know the names of hardly any tunes I play, and I play at a fair speed. Its very depressing to learn that I dont value the tunes as much as someone who knows the names of the tunes they play.
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by bb
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
So are you saying that my guess was right, at least in your own case? (Not that one case adds up to a correlation, of course.) And are you saying that your speed is what I would call "too fast"? That you see yourself as one of the people I might be construed as having, by implication, criticised? (As if that matters very much!) In short, are you saying that "the cap fits"?
But more seriously, I would feel that someone who, for instance, knows things like the name of a tune, where it was learnt, what people or events or places it might be associated with (particularly if it's a tune associated with a famous player), any lore about its origins and so on could reasonably be thought to value the tune more than someone who does not know it's name, origin or anything else but is able to play along with it at high speed in a session. It seems to me quite a reasonable use of the word.
To be clear, I am not saying that you, I or anyone else in particular matches either of those descriptions - if you feel you do, then ok, I'll believe you.
And of course, whether it *matters* if someone values tunes in that sense or not is another, different and open question. It is perfectly fair to think that it does not matter a toss.
My guess is, as it was yesterday, that there is a high correlation between people who play too fast (or, if you don't like "too" fast you might prefer "very" fast) and people who don't know the names of many of the tunes they can play.
But maybe I'm wrong - maybe the very fast players tend to be the ones who *do* know most of the names. So far, though, it's still my guess.
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: What are generally accepted speeds for reels and jigs
Well - I dont think I play particuarly fast....but as you say who really gives a toss! Although I do value the tunes....exception to every rule maybe?
# Posted on March 26th 2007 by bb