Hello folks. I've been enjoying this site for a few months now, and thought that I'd try my hand at posting a discussion.
I'd been listening to more mainstream Irish-type stuff, along with other musical interests, for some time. Then one day I bought a Kevin Burke album, and was quickly hooked on the "hard stuff".
I'd been playing the guitar for some time, and the five-string banjo for about a year, and had some fun picking out some tunes on both instruments. All the while however, I had a closet desire to play the fiddle, the voice that most called to me.
Due to the lack of musical resources in my area and a very prohibitive work schedule, I shied away from taking up a new instrument (especially one so difficult). However, on Christmas morning, what to my wondering eyes should appear but a shiny new fiddle!
My work situation has not changed, but now that I have a fiddle, I'll be darned if I'm not going to play it. This means, however, that at least for the present time, it is unlikely that I'll be able to get a teacher to help me (I'd be lucky to find a violin teacher period, much less an Irish player).
I am mostly self-taught on the guitar, and completely self taught on the banjo (though not much of a master of either, I'm afraid), so I have at least a little confidence that I can make progress on the fiddle by myself, as difficult as I am finding it. This site has been a tremendous resource to me in learning about many aspects of ITM, so I thought I'd put forth this question here.
How many of you are self-taught (completely or mostly), or at least started out that way? What has been your experience with that? Of most interest to me, what kinds of teaching aids and practices helped you most?
And what are some of the pitfalls that you discovered? To you more experienced players, are there any strengths or faults that you often encounter when dealing with a self-taught player?
For those of you who went to a teacher eventually, were there any epiphanies that they suddenly revealed to you? You know, the moments when you stop and say, "Oh. Well. That's a whole lot better than what I was doing..."
I know that this site has been around for a while, and that almost every conceivable help-the-clueless-beginner question has been asked and answered. If it turns out that this topic has been covered in exhaustive depth in seven previous threads, then I apologize.
Hi RG.
I'm completely self-taught on all the instruments I play; Whistle, flute, Recorders, Highland Pipes, Bombard, Guitar and Bodhran.
I think we all teach our selves essentially. A teachers job is to make your self-teaching as efficient as possible.
I've met too many people who were put of playing by dreadful music teachers, so if you choose that root make shore you get some gen on them before you sign up.
The advantages of taking control of the whole process your self is that the things you learn will be your discoveries and as such will be better integrated in your musicianship.
All the best PP
I feel like an imposter! I'm a music librarian and classical musician, interested in but not [yet] playing traditional music. However, I can add that whilst I have been taught oboe and piano to quite a high level, I get just as much enjoyment from playing the organ and guitar, both self-taught. If you've already taught yourself other instruments, you've surely got an advantage with getting started on that fiddle. And maybe you'll find yourself a teacher later on. Technique can always be put right later if you encounter difficulties.
RG, I am a completely self taught whistle player. I think the pit falls that many self taught players fall into are bad habits. I know for myself that I get lazy while practicing a piece of music, but I don't realize it until I play that piece with another player. It is then that it becomes more difficult to unlearn, then relearn a section or the entire piece of music. There are many times that I would have liked to have had someone to bounce ideas off of as well as have mistakes corrected immediately. One thing I notice is that the pieces of music that I first learned to play are so much less than pieces I have learned since I began playing with other musicians. The difference is that my ornamentation is so much more inventive (however, not necessarily more creative) now as opposed to then. The point being that had I had some early direction that would not be a sore point for me now. By the way, those early pieces are so ingrained incorrectly in my mind, that I have not been able to unlearn them in order to correct them. I hope this helps.
Lowhistle
I like what Pied Piper had to say about self-teaching and the purpose of a teacher. I hadn't thought about it in those terms before, but he has a good point. And I do feel a sense of pride in what I've accomplished with my other instruments, having done it myself (and you are quite correct, karenmca, about having taught myself other instruments helping me with the fiddle. If I didn't have a background in other stringed instruments, I would even know where to begin tackling this beast). Still, I always have a these nagging doubts, that maybe I'd be further ahead if I'd had someone to guide me (which is partly why I posted this question).
LoWhistle brings up my greatest fear in starting by myself: learning bad habits right off the bat. To be honest, I don't even really know if I'm holding the fiddle properly, not having anyone to give me any feedback, let alone getting on to ornaments and such. Ah well.
Well RG the Bombard is a little Breton Shawm with a very large voice, and yes it's very dangerous in any ones hands.
Historically it's a Bagpipe chanter that decided to escape the confines of the bag and return to the older way of being played.
The volume is just a touch louder than the Highland pipe Chanter and has a range of two octaves. The top notes can strip the fleas out of a dog at 200 yards.
I’ve only had to use it in self-defence once and it was very effective.
PP
RG, I taught myself piano as a child. I'm no virtuoso with it, but it has been a joy to me all my life. I did take one year of lessons as a teen, and the teacher had a lot to add regarding technique and theory. I would have continued lessons if I could have.
I've been teaching myself, very carefully, I might add, the tin whistle. What do I mean by "carefully", I'm asking experienced players all along the way a million questions about every aspect of playing whistle that I can think of.
I was "taught" how to play Boehm flute by a band instructor and played the way I was taught 14 years...and it was WRONG. Not only wrong, but a very difficult way of playing. The right way is much much easier, better tone, uses less breath, etc. Trying to unlearn those wrong techniques (now instinctual) has been my big struggle ever since.
Now I've gotten an irish flute, and I'm encountering the same thing all over again with the addition of needing to learn a whole new genre of music, ITM. I'm slowly self-teaching, and have FINALLY found an instructor...I'll have to drive 60 miles for the lessons, but he started out on classical Boehm like me...and is now a well-known professional ITM player. The heavens have taken pity on me and sent the perfect teacher for me.
Sooooooo...teachers are not "all that"--depends on the teacher. Experienced players of your instrument in the style of music you want to play ARE definitely great resources. Best scenario: an experienced ITM player as a teacher. Keep searching for one.
If you're going to self-teach, do your homework, do your homework, do your homework. Listen to experienced players, talk to them, if possible watch them...but best of all, play with them and ask many many questions. Try to learn proper technique early on, both with your instrument and with any new tune. Before taking on a new tune, learn as much as you can about it. Seek advice on that too.
I'm no virtuoso on whistle or irish flute (yet?), but these are things I've learned from my own errors. Hope it helps. Let us know how it goes!
Well, I guess you learn something new every day. And here I thought the fiddle was dangerous! (but I've not been able to strip the fleas off my dog from further than 50 yards away).
Stace, I certainly take your advice to heart. As it happens, I too had some piano lessons as a child. My teacher was by no means a bad one, but the lesson plan she used was designed for very young children, and the tunes she taught were also for that age level ("Oscar the Octopus" and "Silly Little Bug" come to mind). I was young, but not that young. I was not a very good pupil for her either. I didn't have enough interest in piano music to really do well at it.
The funny thing is, I have recently come far forward in my understanding of the theory behind music, and I find that I am recalling things that she taught me that made no sense to me at the time. In one sense, my lessons were "wasted" in that I can't play the piano, but in another, they are still helping me with music even now. I don't regret them.
Seeking out other skilled players is certainly high on my list to advance myself musically. My work situation is temporary as I save up money for schooling, so hopefully I will find more opportunities once I move on.
Stace, I just remembered something I read as I was looking at your post about learning the flute wrong.
It was piece by Ian Anderson (the flautist from the band Jethro Tull). The guy is either a musical genius or a complete lunatic, depending on how you view his work.
Anyway, he was discussing how he learned the flute. He basically taught himself from the ground up, and developed a *very* individual style. After many years, his young daughter began learning the flute. She was having a hard time with it, and he, in all his paternal wisdom and musical experience, decided to help her out with it by showing her some fingerings. His daughter then said, "Oh no, daddy, that's not how you make an E! Here's how." She proceeded to lecture him on how her teacher fingered the notes.
The windfall of this was that soon afterwards, Mr. Anderson broke down and went back to relearn his fingerings the "right way", and in the end, he said he found that he could still play through all his favorite pieces, but it was now much easier and less challenging for him.
So maybe there is some benefit to starting off "right"
I don’t recommend anyone trying to self teach the fiddle. As a teacher, you don’t know how many students come to me who attempted to teach themselves only to run into road barriers. There are many more pitfalls with the fiddle than there are with guitar etc. Often, it takes months if not years to correct already bad technique. If there are absolutely no teachers about, I would suggest investing in budget mandolin and finding a beginner book that uses violin fingering. Then later make the transition to fiddle. Violin teachers are usually easier to find than fiddle teachers. If you’re a fiddler at heart, then a few violin lessons to learn the basics wont ruin you too much. In the long run, it is the best way.
Cheers
Sean
I have been a (mostly) self taught traditional Irish player on fiddle for more than twenty years, but never made very much real progress until I was able to attend a fiddle camp and get a week of lessons from James Kelly. I found that I had many bad habits which had held me back for years! Since then I have been able to get lessons or workshops from Seamus Connoly, Sean Smythe and Frankie Gavin and each of these has helped me make big improvements in my playing. I had started playing as an adult in my late twenties and had been playing Guitar and mandolin by ear for a few years before that. I found a local classically trained teacher who taught me basic technique and helped me develop my reading skills as well as some music theory. All of this was very helpful in a basic sense, but did'nt really help all that much as far as trad playing went.
I think it is very important to be able to hear good traditional playing on a regular basis- this will help you develop a good sense of the "feel" of the rhythm, which cannot be put down on paper.
Where do you live? Do you ever have the opportunity to hear good playing at close range?
There are some very good resources in the form of books and CD sets (some of the best ones I've seen are being publish by Mel Bay of all people). I reccomend the Irish Fiddle tutor by Pete Cooper as a good start. Many of the bowings are not as intuitive as you might think and this book does a good job of presenting them.
Take your time and practice playing slowly. And as Seamus always likes to say, "Keep playing the Irish Music!"
I wholeheartedly agree with what Lowhistle and txfiddler have saying about bad habits. If you unknowingly learn and practice the bad habits, Sod's Law being what it is, you'll find them more difficult to eradicate than to learn correct technique in the first place! And txfiddler's advice about working on the mandolin (which has fiddle tuning) as an alternative to the fiddle until you can get to a fiddle teacher, is a brilliant suggestion!
The Session website is a goldmine of advice about all aspects of playing the fiddle, both technique and interpretation, and a few evenings spent trawling through the threads will be time well spent. I believe there are one or two links to websites which have illustrated tutorials on violin playing.
I suggest, if you want to go ahead with teaching yourself the fiddle in the absence of a live teacher or a good experienced fiddler to advise you, watch and video-tape violinists on TV to see how they hold their instruments and bows, and their left hand and arm positions. If a trad Irish fiddler is in action on the TV, that's the one to video!
If you've been playing fretted instruments for some time, and picking out tunes on them, then your fingers are almost certainly well on the way to the level of control you need for the fiddle. And here txfiddler's advice about the mandolin is very relevant.
The most important things to remember when practicing on any instrument are,
1. Practice slowly. Don't push the speed until you're note perfect and the coordination is there. If things get ragged at a faster speed then this is a sure sign you should slow down. This applies even to advanced players learning a new tune.
2. Really listen to the sound you're making. This is probably the most difficult thing a musician has to master. When you can hear yourself as others hear you then you'll start to make real progress. A tape recorder is a help here.
3. Concentrate on playing in tune - another aspect of slow practice. Good intonation and good tone quality go together.
4. Practice scales and arpeggios a lot. Slowly, paying attention to intonation and tone. Irish music, in common with almost all western music, is based on scales and arpeggios. Even when you're an advanced player you should always warm up with a few of them so as to remind your fingers where to go, as it were.
Although you may have a lack of music resources in your area try to get to see a teacher for assessment once in a while - the sooner the better before bad habits set in - even if it means travelling. Try to identify the right sort of teacher for you by recommendation from experienced itm fiddlers in the area. Better still, try to have a week's holiday at a fiddle workshop or summer school. There you will have easy access to some of the best players and teachers around who will be only too glad to pass on their skills, advice and help.
I live in New Kensington, which is a suburb of Pittsburgh, PA (USA). As for hearing good playing at close range, only when I lean really close to my stereo speakers.
My schedule is more to blame than my location (there are resources for traditional music in Pittsburgh). I work a day shift in a local plant, and often have to be asleep by 6:00pm to get enough rest.
As for resources, I did get the Matt Cranitch fiddle tutor, and was given the Kevin Burke video set (from Homespun Tapes) as gift (which I love). i will look into the Mel Bay stuff, though.
Txfiddler, you speak of roadblocks faced by your students. Could you be more specific? What sorts of mistakes did they have to unlearn? And you too, Murph, if you don't mind. What bad habits did the fiddle camp reveal?
Basically, I'm not starting out on my own by choice really, but by circumstance, so I'm looking for advice on how to learn while avoiding common mistakes if I can.
I really appreciate all the advice I'm getting. Alternatively, if any of you are a good Irish fiddle teacher living in the Pittsburgh area, and has an open schedule in the early afternoon, contact me. You'll have yourself a pupil.
BTW, I did actually pick up a budget mandolin a month or so before getting the fiddle (for the purpose of learnign the tuning and fingerings). I have been using it as a sort of "practice fiddle" ever since, and have indeed found it helpul, as you guys suggest.
Thank you for the advice, Trevor.
Geez, I'm already going to have to print this thread out to digest it all.
I have a question for you though, as my education on music theory is incomplete. I understand how a scale works, but I'm a little shaky on what an arpeggio is. From what I gather, it's every note that makes up a chord, but I don't really know how this is determined (I don't know the theory behind chord-building).
Yes, an arpeggio is the notes that make up a chord, played one after the other. For example, if you have a G major chord, then a G major arpeggio (in standard ABC notation) would be, starting on the open G string: G,B,D,GBdgb. Similarly for other chords in other keys.
Thanks again, trevor. I thought it was something like that.
Thanks to everyone for there help today. I log onto the Session from work (as I suspect many of its members do). I don't have internet access at home, so please don't think me rude if i don't respond to my own discussion until tomorrow.
i was learning to play anglo concertina for a couple of years before i got any instruction. after a week with noel hill, i pretty much had to throw out most everything i'd taught myself.
when i decided a year ago that i wanted to learn fiddle, the first thing i did was get a violin. the second was to get a teacher. my progress on the fiddle has been far faster than my progress on the concertina was (even though, in my opinion, the fiddle is a more difficult instrument to play), and i'm not picking up anywhere near as many bad habits.
Hey RG. One biggie is laying the palm of the left hand flat against the back of the neck. That disables the first finger and makes it difficult for the pinky as well. Another is holding the fiddle forward from the body as opposed to the side. This twists the arm unnaturally and puts undue stress on muscles and bones. I could go on and on when it comes to bowing. Feel free to e-mail me with specific questions if you have.
Cheers
The main problem that I had (have) to overcome with my bowing was a tendancy to move my whole arm from the shoulder when bowing. The upper arm (from elbow to shoulder) should'nt move at all (hardly) except to change strings. Most of the arm movement should be from the elbow, with the wrist keeping supple and flexible. Your arm should be relaxed, but not limp,or you will probably not be able to produce a good tone.
Another important consideration is the angle of rotation of the forearm to the plane of movement. Your right forearm should be turned slightly towards you, as if you have your wristwatch on your right wrist and are checking to see what time it is. This gives your elbow joint a more natural, comfortable plane to move in.
All this is really by way of telling you just how easy it is to get into a bad habit if you have nobody to show you how it's done- it's just so much easier to get it right the first time!
Bad habits I acquired in learning on my own: holding my fingers WAY above the strings ( like a piano player trained classically), playing the phrases which were easy very quickly and slowing down on harder ones instead of setting a steady pace, learning too many tunes at one time instead of learning a few well. I played on a fiddle which needed serious work and was slowing me down for two years before somebody handed me a fiddle that worked.
There is a satisfaction in being self taught. But when you hit a slump, go get help ! Tape yourself. Listen to everything and find a way to watch people who play ITM ( not old time or blue grass) and watch their bowing. This summer after 3 years , I went to a week long camp, and definitely had that "AHA" moment. But it wasn't so much the teachers as watching fiddlers and hearing the same tunes I learned from sheet music played with just a slight difference that made if difficult or impossible for me to play along even when I thought I knew the tunes. Jennifer
A teacher can help you skip pitfalls and learn quicker. However, I don't think that weekly lessons are necessary. Monthly or bi-monthly lessons would be sufficient in my opinion. Just enough so that you are asking questions the whole time and learning from the teacher based on a lot of practicing instead of simply having your teacher watch you practice. You'll get more for your money that way.
Violin teachers can help, but be aware that playing classical well requires a different skill set than playing Irish trad well. In order to do things such as change to higher positions (move up and play higher on the fingerboard), do staccato bowing, have heavy, have a heavy, sustained vibrato, and various other techniques you will need to hold the violin and bow and play according to classical standards. However, since not all of these techniques are part of Irish traditional music they are not as important and are often ignored by traditional fiddlers.
It's key to know what you want out of playing. If you are working to become one of the best, then you need to do things right from the beginning. However, if you are just in it to have fun, and you have terrible technique but are having fun… who cares!?
Keep learning tunes. At least 2 a week (once you get going). This will keep you challenged and improving, and having fun.
If you're not having fun, then your doing it wrong.
Oh, I'm having fun. But I think it would only be considerate to improve my playing so that those who have to listen to me would have fun as well (or at least stop yelling at me).
All kidding aside, thank you to all the folks who responded to my question. There's been a lot of good advice and opinions expressed, and I appreciate it all.
What has been said has more or less confirmed what I felt when I posted the question: that I would probably be better off starting out with a teacher.
Could I learn to play the fiddle all right on my own? Yeah, I think so, but probably not to the level of mastery that I desire (certainly not, if I had no interaction with other players). The fiddle seems to me a thing worth mastering.
A purely personal consideration is that I am (to be honest) a little tired of figuring *everything* out on my own. I give informal guitar lessons to friends sometimes, and I often find myself explaining and demonstrating something that it took me a long time and a lot of trial and error to figure out on my own. A lot of times I wish that I had had someone to demonstrate those things to me.
Other the other hand, I usually sense that the bit of wisdom that I'm trying to pass on is not fully understood or appreciated by the person at that beginning stage. Being told or shown something doesn't impart the same understanding as coming to the conclusion yourself (and therefore understanding why), and I think that the student will naturally try to "figure out" what he has
been taught once he is on his own. So I think that there is good wisdom in Pied Piper's comment in the beginning, that a teacher allows us to teach ourselves as efficiently as possible.
I will just have to redouble my efforts in finding a suitable teacher, even if some evaluation now and again is all I can manage. I'll also take you folk's advice and more actively seek out ITM players in the area. I'm sure there must be a session or two going on in Pittsburgh, if I can just make the time.
Thanks again for everyone's help!
(and if anyone wants to say more, I'm certainly listening).
I am learning/playing the mandolin. I spent a year learning the mandolin on my own with a book. Due to utter frustration i went for lessions. I found the lessions to be excellent and i progressed further in a few lessions than i would ever had on my own. Having said that the first tutor i went to was only interested in the money, but the second (and existing) is fabulous.
I found the lessions invaluble but it definitley depends on whether the tutor is earning his payment.
Good luck.
The mandolin has come up a few times in this thread, and as I previously mentioned, I did get a cheap mandolin shortly before receiving the fiddle. A friend of mine got one about a year ago as well (which I stole time on rather frequently), so the first few pieces I've tried on the fiddle are ones I knew on the mandolin.
Maybe I should ask the question, how well does a tune learned on a mandolin translate to fiddle? I realize that the tuning and the notes are the same, but I've noticed on the mando I would favor string crossings and open strings when picking, but that these are more difficult on the fiddle. Also, since the mandolin favors one-two, up-and-down picking, how would this approach change on the fiddle (i.e using slurring and bow techniques for a "smoother" sound)?
Maybe someone who's made the transition could share their experiences.
The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Hello folks. I've been enjoying this site for a few months now, and thought that I'd try my hand at posting a discussion.
I'd been listening to more mainstream Irish-type stuff, along with other musical interests, for some time. Then one day I bought a Kevin Burke album, and was quickly hooked on the "hard stuff".
I'd been playing the guitar for some time, and the five-string banjo for about a year, and had some fun picking out some tunes on both instruments. All the while however, I had a closet desire to play the fiddle, the voice that most called to me.
Due to the lack of musical resources in my area and a very prohibitive work schedule, I shied away from taking up a new instrument (especially one so difficult). However, on Christmas morning, what to my wondering eyes should appear but a shiny new fiddle!
My work situation has not changed, but now that I have a fiddle, I'll be darned if I'm not going to play it. This means, however, that at least for the present time, it is unlikely that I'll be able to get a teacher to help me (I'd be lucky to find a violin teacher period, much less an Irish player).
I am mostly self-taught on the guitar, and completely self taught on the banjo (though not much of a master of either, I'm afraid), so I have at least a little confidence that I can make progress on the fiddle by myself, as difficult as I am finding it. This site has been a tremendous resource to me in learning about many aspects of ITM, so I thought I'd put forth this question here.
How many of you are self-taught (completely or mostly), or at least started out that way? What has been your experience with that? Of most interest to me, what kinds of teaching aids and practices helped you most?
And what are some of the pitfalls that you discovered? To you more experienced players, are there any strengths or faults that you often encounter when dealing with a self-taught player?
For those of you who went to a teacher eventually, were there any epiphanies that they suddenly revealed to you? You know, the moments when you stop and say, "Oh. Well. That's a whole lot better than what I was doing..."
I know that this site has been around for a while, and that almost every conceivable help-the-clueless-beginner question has been asked and answered. If it turns out that this topic has been covered in exhaustive depth in seven previous threads, then I apologize.
Thanks in advance,
RG
# Posted on January 19th 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Hi RG.
I'm completely self-taught on all the instruments I play; Whistle, flute, Recorders, Highland Pipes, Bombard, Guitar and Bodhran.
I think we all teach our selves essentially. A teachers job is to make your self-teaching as efficient as possible.
I've met too many people who were put of playing by dreadful music teachers, so if you choose that root make shore you get some gen on them before you sign up.
The advantages of taking control of the whole process your self is that the things you learn will be your discoveries and as such will be better integrated in your musicianship.
All the best PP
# Posted on January 19th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
I feel like an imposter! I'm a music librarian and classical musician, interested in but not [yet] playing traditional music. However, I can add that whilst I have been taught oboe and piano to quite a high level, I get just as much enjoyment from playing the organ and guitar, both self-taught. If you've already taught yourself other instruments, you've surely got an advantage with getting started on that fiddle. And maybe you'll find yourself a teacher later on. Technique can always be put right later if you encounter difficulties.
# Posted on January 19th 2003 by karenmca
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
RG, I am a completely self taught whistle player. I think the pit falls that many self taught players fall into are bad habits. I know for myself that I get lazy while practicing a piece of music, but I don't realize it until I play that piece with another player. It is then that it becomes more difficult to unlearn, then relearn a section or the entire piece of music. There are many times that I would have liked to have had someone to bounce ideas off of as well as have mistakes corrected immediately. One thing I notice is that the pieces of music that I first learned to play are so much less than pieces I have learned since I began playing with other musicians. The difference is that my ornamentation is so much more inventive (however, not necessarily more creative) now as opposed to then. The point being that had I had some early direction that would not be a sore point for me now. By the way, those early pieces are so ingrained incorrectly in my mind, that I have not been able to unlearn them in order to correct them. I hope this helps.
Lowhistle
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by LoWhistle
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Thanks for the replies!
I like what Pied Piper had to say about self-teaching and the purpose of a teacher. I hadn't thought about it in those terms before, but he has a good point. And I do feel a sense of pride in what I've accomplished with my other instruments, having done it myself (and you are quite correct, karenmca, about having taught myself other instruments helping me with the fiddle. If I didn't have a background in other stringed instruments, I would even know where to begin tackling this beast). Still, I always have a these nagging doubts, that maybe I'd be further ahead if I'd had someone to guide me (which is partly why I posted this question).
LoWhistle brings up my greatest fear in starting by myself: learning bad habits right off the bat. To be honest, I don't even really know if I'm holding the fiddle properly, not having anyone to give me any feedback, let alone getting on to ornaments and such. Ah well.
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
What's a Bombard, by the way, PP? Sounds dangerous in the hands of a beginner
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Well RG the Bombard is a little Breton Shawm with a very large voice, and yes it's very dangerous in any ones hands.
Historically it's a Bagpipe chanter that decided to escape the confines of the bag and return to the older way of being played.
The volume is just a touch louder than the Highland pipe Chanter and has a range of two octaves. The top notes can strip the fleas out of a dog at 200 yards.
I’ve only had to use it in self-defence once and it was very effective.
PP
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
RG, I taught myself piano as a child. I'm no virtuoso with it, but it has been a joy to me all my life. I did take one year of lessons as a teen, and the teacher had a lot to add regarding technique and theory. I would have continued lessons if I could have.
I've been teaching myself, very carefully, I might add, the tin whistle. What do I mean by "carefully", I'm asking experienced players all along the way a million questions about every aspect of playing whistle that I can think of.
I was "taught" how to play Boehm flute by a band instructor and played the way I was taught 14 years...and it was WRONG. Not only wrong, but a very difficult way of playing. The right way is much much easier, better tone, uses less breath, etc. Trying to unlearn those wrong techniques (now instinctual) has been my big struggle ever since.
Now I've gotten an irish flute, and I'm encountering the same thing all over again with the addition of needing to learn a whole new genre of music, ITM. I'm slowly self-teaching, and have FINALLY found an instructor...I'll have to drive 60 miles for the lessons, but he started out on classical Boehm like me...and is now a well-known professional ITM player. The heavens have taken pity on me and sent the perfect teacher for me.
Sooooooo...teachers are not "all that"--depends on the teacher. Experienced players of your instrument in the style of music you want to play ARE definitely great resources. Best scenario: an experienced ITM player as a teacher. Keep searching for one.
If you're going to self-teach, do your homework, do your homework, do your homework. Listen to experienced players, talk to them, if possible watch them...but best of all, play with them and ask many many questions. Try to learn proper technique early on, both with your instrument and with any new tune. Before taking on a new tune, learn as much as you can about it. Seek advice on that too.
I'm no virtuoso on whistle or irish flute (yet?), but these are things I've learned from my own errors. Hope it helps. Let us know how it goes!
--Stace
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by katiebythegate
RE: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Teaching--Bombard
Wow, PP...who needs a Remington shaver when you've got one of those things?
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Well, I guess you learn something new every day. And here I thought the fiddle was dangerous! (but I've not been able to strip the fleas off my dog from further than 50 yards away).
Stace, I certainly take your advice to heart. As it happens, I too had some piano lessons as a child. My teacher was by no means a bad one, but the lesson plan she used was designed for very young children, and the tunes she taught were also for that age level ("Oscar the Octopus" and "Silly Little Bug" come to mind). I was young, but not that young. I was not a very good pupil for her either. I didn't have enough interest in piano music to really do well at it.
The funny thing is, I have recently come far forward in my understanding of the theory behind music, and I find that I am recalling things that she taught me that made no sense to me at the time. In one sense, my lessons were "wasted" in that I can't play the piano, but in another, they are still helping me with music even now. I don't regret them.
Seeking out other skilled players is certainly high on my list to advance myself musically. My work situation is temporary as I save up money for schooling, so hopefully I will find more opportunities once I move on.
Thanks for all the help so far!
Rob
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Stace, I just remembered something I read as I was looking at your post about learning the flute wrong.
It was piece by Ian Anderson (the flautist from the band Jethro Tull). The guy is either a musical genius or a complete lunatic, depending on how you view his work.
Anyway, he was discussing how he learned the flute. He basically taught himself from the ground up, and developed a *very* individual style. After many years, his young daughter began learning the flute. She was having a hard time with it, and he, in all his paternal wisdom and musical experience, decided to help her out with it by showing her some fingerings. His daughter then said, "Oh no, daddy, that's not how you make an E! Here's how." She proceeded to lecture him on how her teacher fingered the notes.
The windfall of this was that soon afterwards, Mr. Anderson broke down and went back to relearn his fingerings the "right way", and in the end, he said he found that he could still play through all his favorite pieces, but it was now much easier and less challenging for him.
So maybe there is some benefit to starting off "right"
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
I don’t recommend anyone trying to self teach the fiddle. As a teacher, you don’t know how many students come to me who attempted to teach themselves only to run into road barriers. There are many more pitfalls with the fiddle than there are with guitar etc. Often, it takes months if not years to correct already bad technique. If there are absolutely no teachers about, I would suggest investing in budget mandolin and finding a beginner book that uses violin fingering. Then later make the transition to fiddle. Violin teachers are usually easier to find than fiddle teachers. If you’re a fiddler at heart, then a few violin lessons to learn the basics wont ruin you too much. In the long run, it is the best way.
Cheers
Sean
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by txfiddler
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
I have been a (mostly) self taught traditional Irish player on fiddle for more than twenty years, but never made very much real progress until I was able to attend a fiddle camp and get a week of lessons from James Kelly. I found that I had many bad habits which had held me back for years! Since then I have been able to get lessons or workshops from Seamus Connoly, Sean Smythe and Frankie Gavin and each of these has helped me make big improvements in my playing. I had started playing as an adult in my late twenties and had been playing Guitar and mandolin by ear for a few years before that. I found a local classically trained teacher who taught me basic technique and helped me develop my reading skills as well as some music theory. All of this was very helpful in a basic sense, but did'nt really help all that much as far as trad playing went.
I think it is very important to be able to hear good traditional playing on a regular basis- this will help you develop a good sense of the "feel" of the rhythm, which cannot be put down on paper.
Where do you live? Do you ever have the opportunity to hear good playing at close range?
There are some very good resources in the form of books and CD sets (some of the best ones I've seen are being publish by Mel Bay of all people). I reccomend the Irish Fiddle tutor by Pete Cooper as a good start. Many of the bowings are not as intuitive as you might think and this book does a good job of presenting them.
Take your time and practice playing slowly. And as Seamus always likes to say, "Keep playing the Irish Music!"
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by Murph
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Hi RG,
I wholeheartedly agree with what Lowhistle and txfiddler have saying about bad habits. If you unknowingly learn and practice the bad habits, Sod's Law being what it is, you'll find them more difficult to eradicate than to learn correct technique in the first place! And txfiddler's advice about working on the mandolin (which has fiddle tuning) as an alternative to the fiddle until you can get to a fiddle teacher, is a brilliant suggestion!
The Session website is a goldmine of advice about all aspects of playing the fiddle, both technique and interpretation, and a few evenings spent trawling through the threads will be time well spent. I believe there are one or two links to websites which have illustrated tutorials on violin playing.
I suggest, if you want to go ahead with teaching yourself the fiddle in the absence of a live teacher or a good experienced fiddler to advise you, watch and video-tape violinists on TV to see how they hold their instruments and bows, and their left hand and arm positions. If a trad Irish fiddler is in action on the TV, that's the one to video!
If you've been playing fretted instruments for some time, and picking out tunes on them, then your fingers are almost certainly well on the way to the level of control you need for the fiddle. And here txfiddler's advice about the mandolin is very relevant.
The most important things to remember when practicing on any instrument are,
1. Practice slowly. Don't push the speed until you're note perfect and the coordination is there. If things get ragged at a faster speed then this is a sure sign you should slow down. This applies even to advanced players learning a new tune.
2. Really listen to the sound you're making. This is probably the most difficult thing a musician has to master. When you can hear yourself as others hear you then you'll start to make real progress. A tape recorder is a help here.
3. Concentrate on playing in tune - another aspect of slow practice. Good intonation and good tone quality go together.
4. Practice scales and arpeggios a lot. Slowly, paying attention to intonation and tone. Irish music, in common with almost all western music, is based on scales and arpeggios. Even when you're an advanced player you should always warm up with a few of them so as to remind your fingers where to go, as it were.
Although you may have a lack of music resources in your area try to get to see a teacher for assessment once in a while - the sooner the better before bad habits set in - even if it means travelling. Try to identify the right sort of teacher for you by recommendation from experienced itm fiddlers in the area. Better still, try to have a week's holiday at a fiddle workshop or summer school. There you will have easy access to some of the best players and teachers around who will be only too glad to pass on their skills, advice and help.
trevor
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
I live in New Kensington, which is a suburb of Pittsburgh, PA (USA). As for hearing good playing at close range, only when I lean really close to my stereo speakers.
My schedule is more to blame than my location (there are resources for traditional music in Pittsburgh). I work a day shift in a local plant, and often have to be asleep by 6:00pm to get enough rest.
As for resources, I did get the Matt Cranitch fiddle tutor, and was given the Kevin Burke video set (from Homespun Tapes) as gift (which I love). i will look into the Mel Bay stuff, though.
Txfiddler, you speak of roadblocks faced by your students. Could you be more specific? What sorts of mistakes did they have to unlearn? And you too, Murph, if you don't mind. What bad habits did the fiddle camp reveal?
Basically, I'm not starting out on my own by choice really, but by circumstance, so I'm looking for advice on how to learn while avoiding common mistakes if I can.
I really appreciate all the advice I'm getting. Alternatively, if any of you are a good Irish fiddle teacher living in the Pittsburgh area, and has an open schedule in the early afternoon, contact me. You'll have yourself a pupil.
But I'm not holding my breath.
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
BTW, I did actually pick up a budget mandolin a month or so before getting the fiddle (for the purpose of learnign the tuning and fingerings). I have been using it as a sort of "practice fiddle" ever since, and have indeed found it helpul, as you guys suggest.
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Thank you for the advice, Trevor.
Geez, I'm already going to have to print this thread out to digest it all.
I have a question for you though, as my education on music theory is incomplete. I understand how a scale works, but I'm a little shaky on what an arpeggio is. From what I gather, it's every note that makes up a chord, but I don't really know how this is determined (I don't know the theory behind chord-building).
Maybe you could enlighten me a little.
Thanks!
Rob
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
Yes, an arpeggio is the notes that make up a chord, played one after the other. For example, if you have a G major chord, then a G major arpeggio (in standard ABC notation) would be, starting on the open G string: G,B,D,GBdgb. Similarly for other chords in other keys.
trevor
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Thanks again, trevor. I thought it was something like that.
Thanks to everyone for there help today. I log onto the Session from work (as I suspect many of its members do). I don't have internet access at home, so please don't think me rude if i don't respond to my own discussion until tomorrow.
Thanks again.
Rob
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
i was learning to play anglo concertina for a couple of years before i got any instruction. after a week with noel hill, i pretty much had to throw out most everything i'd taught myself.
when i decided a year ago that i wanted to learn fiddle, the first thing i did was get a violin. the second was to get a teacher. my progress on the fiddle has been far faster than my progress on the concertina was (even though, in my opinion, the fiddle is a more difficult instrument to play), and i'm not picking up anywhere near as many bad habits.
sarah
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by eleyne
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Hey RG. One biggie is laying the palm of the left hand flat against the back of the neck. That disables the first finger and makes it difficult for the pinky as well. Another is holding the fiddle forward from the body as opposed to the side. This twists the arm unnaturally and puts undue stress on muscles and bones. I could go on and on when it comes to bowing. Feel free to e-mail me with specific questions if you have.
Cheers
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by txfiddler
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
The main problem that I had (have) to overcome with my bowing was a tendancy to move my whole arm from the shoulder when bowing. The upper arm (from elbow to shoulder) should'nt move at all (hardly) except to change strings. Most of the arm movement should be from the elbow, with the wrist keeping supple and flexible. Your arm should be relaxed, but not limp,or you will probably not be able to produce a good tone.
Another important consideration is the angle of rotation of the forearm to the plane of movement. Your right forearm should be turned slightly towards you, as if you have your wristwatch on your right wrist and are checking to see what time it is. This gives your elbow joint a more natural, comfortable plane to move in.
All this is really by way of telling you just how easy it is to get into a bad habit if you have nobody to show you how it's done- it's just so much easier to get it right the first time!
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by Murph
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Bad habits I acquired in learning on my own: holding my fingers WAY above the strings ( like a piano player trained classically), playing the phrases which were easy very quickly and slowing down on harder ones instead of setting a steady pace, learning too many tunes at one time instead of learning a few well. I played on a fiddle which needed serious work and was slowing me down for two years before somebody handed me a fiddle that worked.
There is a satisfaction in being self taught. But when you hit a slump, go get help ! Tape yourself. Listen to everything and find a way to watch people who play ITM ( not old time or blue grass) and watch their bowing. This summer after 3 years , I went to a week long camp, and definitely had that "AHA" moment. But it wasn't so much the teachers as watching fiddlers and hearing the same tunes I learned from sheet music played with just a slight difference that made if difficult or impossible for me to play along even when I thought I knew the tunes. Jennifer
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by Jenthur
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
A teacher can help you skip pitfalls and learn quicker. However, I don't think that weekly lessons are necessary. Monthly or bi-monthly lessons would be sufficient in my opinion. Just enough so that you are asking questions the whole time and learning from the teacher based on a lot of practicing instead of simply having your teacher watch you practice. You'll get more for your money that way.
Violin teachers can help, but be aware that playing classical well requires a different skill set than playing Irish trad well. In order to do things such as change to higher positions (move up and play higher on the fingerboard), do staccato bowing, have heavy, have a heavy, sustained vibrato, and various other techniques you will need to hold the violin and bow and play according to classical standards. However, since not all of these techniques are part of Irish traditional music they are not as important and are often ignored by traditional fiddlers.
It's key to know what you want out of playing. If you are working to become one of the best, then you need to do things right from the beginning. However, if you are just in it to have fun, and you have terrible technique but are having fun… who cares!?
Keep learning tunes. At least 2 a week (once you get going). This will keep you challenged and improving, and having fun.
If you're not having fun, then your doing it wrong.
-Troy
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RTP
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
Oh, I'm having fun. But I think it would only be considerate to improve my playing so that those who have to listen to me would have fun as well (or at least stop yelling at me).
All kidding aside, thank you to all the folks who responded to my question. There's been a lot of good advice and opinions expressed, and I appreciate it all.
What has been said has more or less confirmed what I felt when I posted the question: that I would probably be better off starting out with a teacher.
Could I learn to play the fiddle all right on my own? Yeah, I think so, but probably not to the level of mastery that I desire (certainly not, if I had no interaction with other players). The fiddle seems to me a thing worth mastering.
A purely personal consideration is that I am (to be honest) a little tired of figuring *everything* out on my own. I give informal guitar lessons to friends sometimes, and I often find myself explaining and demonstrating something that it took me a long time and a lot of trial and error to figure out on my own. A lot of times I wish that I had had someone to demonstrate those things to me.
Other the other hand, I usually sense that the bit of wisdom that I'm trying to pass on is not fully understood or appreciated by the person at that beginning stage. Being told or shown something doesn't impart the same understanding as coming to the conclusion yourself (and therefore understanding why), and I think that the student will naturally try to "figure out" what he has
been taught once he is on his own. So I think that there is good wisdom in Pied Piper's comment in the beginning, that a teacher allows us to teach ourselves as efficiently as possible.
I will just have to redouble my efforts in finding a suitable teacher, even if some evaluation now and again is all I can manage. I'll also take you folk's advice and more actively seek out ITM players in the area. I'm sure there must be a session or two going on in Pittsburgh, if I can just make the time.
Thanks again for everyone's help!
(and if anyone wants to say more, I'm certainly listening).
Rob
# Posted on January 20th 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
*More* Sorry...couldn't resist that one!
# Posted on January 21st 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
{silently hangs his head and sighs}
# Posted on January 22nd 2003 by RG
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
I am learning/playing the mandolin. I spent a year learning the mandolin on my own with a book. Due to utter frustration i went for lessions. I found the lessions to be excellent and i progressed further in a few lessions than i would ever had on my own. Having said that the first tutor i went to was only interested in the money, but the second (and existing) is fabulous.
I found the lessions invaluble but it definitley depends on whether the tutor is earning his payment.
Good luck.
# Posted on January 22nd 2003 by Celtic1234
Re: The Pathways and Pitfalls of Self-Teaching
The mandolin has come up a few times in this thread, and as I previously mentioned, I did get a cheap mandolin shortly before receiving the fiddle. A friend of mine got one about a year ago as well (which I stole time on rather frequently), so the first few pieces I've tried on the fiddle are ones I knew on the mandolin.
Maybe I should ask the question, how well does a tune learned on a mandolin translate to fiddle? I realize that the tuning and the notes are the same, but I've noticed on the mando I would favor string crossings and open strings when picking, but that these are more difficult on the fiddle. Also, since the mandolin favors one-two, up-and-down picking, how would this approach change on the fiddle (i.e using slurring and bow techniques for a "smoother" sound)?
Maybe someone who's made the transition could share their experiences.
-Rob
# Posted on January 22nd 2003 by RG