Following on from the discussion http://thesession.org/discussions/display/12983 of Ryan Duns' excellent online YouTube whistle lessons, I just wanted to ask the ITM community what you'd like to see online as far as tutorials?
Yesterday in the office at Comhaltas we were talking about filming a series of video tutorials on various instruments and putting them online. Our thoughts so far revolved around finding experienced teachers, having them play through tunes at normal and slow speeds, and then have them explain the 'tricky' bits about the tune, whatever made it interesting on their instrument. The whole thing would be aimed at an intermediate audience - people who could play the basics on their instrument (scales, basic rhythms) but wanted a bit of a boost in playing traditional music. I was thinking about a weekly series, with maybe 25 lessons.
What does everyone think? What would you want to see in an online video lesson, and how would you like it structured? Would you want downloadable printed material as well (beyond the notation for the tunes) or just focus on the videos?
No disrespect to all those who puts lots of time into Video tutorials but I sometimes find myself wondering why the need for Video. Surely its an aural tradition and I would have thought that the learning musician (aren't we all) would be better to learn where the notes are on their chosen instrument, how to sound ornaments and then just follow the tune, albeit oftimes slowed down. I would venture to suggest that trying to follow someone's else fingering is counter productive and even distracting.
I can see the point for videos on aspects of ornamentation - I have found videos useful for cuts and rolls etc. But not for learning tunes.
Personally, I have made good use of the Foinn Seisuin CD's and books and would think that type of material is all that is needed - good strong clear playing. I also record session but sometimes due to background noise and other factors, they can be harder to follow.
Yes, everyone loves video in the 'modern' world but is it the best way to approach teaching/ learning music, I wonder?
You definitely raise a good question - are videos the way to go? I had to struggle with this as I am wholly unaccustomed to teaching in any manner apart from direct, 1-on-1 lessons.
But, as I have reflected on it, I have come to see the videos as eminently auricular. I doubt there are many who would say that the only sensation one experiences in a sesiun is sound -- truly, a good sesiun plays upon multiple sensations, admittedly highlighted by hearing, but sensations drawn together in an organic whole of the experience.
The problem I have found in judging music at feiseanna and doing workshops is that the number of self-taught musicians has led to an interesting dilemma. While on the one hand the proliferation of self-tutored musicians is a testimony to the power of the Irish music to captivate the hearts of listeners, there is a pronounced and woeful lack of understanding of the finer points of playing. The result has been a lot of people who play instruments associated with Irish music, but this does not an Irish musician make.
The "traditional" of "traditional Irish music" rests on its having been handed down through the generations. My great-grandfather and my great-aunt (a box playing Ursuline nun) handed to me a number of tunes that I now teach my students. It's not a matter of getting the tune right, but getting the whole experience...of surrendering oneself to the larger tradition and, in the act of surrender, finding one's own place and voice in the tradition.
Videos accomplish, in some way, this -- it's yet another medium of handing on what has been received. Any concerted effort to induct listeners and interested students into the tradition must be received with open arms, but with the caution of ensuring that the tradition is maintained. When we rely solely on books or single-sources, we risk forgetting the plurality of voices that bespeak the beauty of our tradition.
Furthermore, a number of the people who watch my videos are unable to find a teacher in their area (Surprisingly, there are many teachers in Moscow or Korea). Perhaps it is part of my Jesuit spirit, but I look at teaching on-line as evangelization, sharing with others the good news of Irish music. The story of Irish music, like the gospel, can wrap each of us within itself, recalling for us those who came before us and asking us now how we wish to shape our lives and how we want our voices to be heard. For it is these voices - from Korea to Moscow to Boise to Chicago - that will be passed down to the next generation.
My intermediate videos will dwell more on the history of tunes and elements of the tradition that the beginners videos (due to time) cannot. But I see this as the next step in the evolution of music - not to exclude what has come before but, rather, to deepen it.
I teach for free (luxury of a vow of poverty) but I know that this isn't feasible. I would hate, however, to think that cost would ever be a stumbling block to a kid learning to play music. My hope is that if CCE enters into this forum, it will find a way to offer the lessons so that they are accessible to all so that more people will feel empowered to contribute their voice to the tradition of Irish music.
I see your point, Ryan and it's well made. But taking that view, perhaps the best video would be like a typical Geantrai (ITM TV show shot in various pubs) session. You know, the musicians as a whole playing a tune, zooming in now and again on individuals.
Online tutorials tend to be different, I think. Any I've seen focus mostly on the fingers, a close up of the instrument. I just tend to think it's like the 'dots versus the ears' arguement. If the notes on the page 'get in the way' of learning a tune, well so does trying to copy someone else's finger movements.
Please do it. I have to admit I have learned as much from watching as listening to date. It's always been beneficial for me sitting in with better players , watching their right hand technique etc. (banjo player here). I've had the privilege of sharing a few tunes with the likes of Cathal Hayden, Joe Molloy and Tommy Finn to name a few and as I reiterate, I've always come away with something.
I've got to admit also, some of the advice given on this site has been a great help too. I look forward to your videos. Thanks again for the new look CCE site, a great job.
Fiddle bowing patterns! I've been studying about 10 months now and thanks to my teacher I'm beginning to get the hang of them, but they're still quite mysterious and any additional exposure would be terrific.
Maybe you could show a specific pattern applied to several tunes, or several patterns applied to one tune. At several speeds. In small and large chunks, note-by-note, building up to phrases and then the whole tune.
And Hussar, I don't think there's anything wrong with copying someone else's finger movements. I'm never going to sound like anyone else, anyway (if only I *could* sound like Kevin Burke just from watching him!). A nice clear example (or several of them) would only be a help to give me ideas on different ways of getting the sound I want. I can pick and choose from what works and what I like.
Oh, also, I wouldn't bother with printed material. You'd have to have masses of written information and it wouldn't really capture the demonstrations anyway. Better to put your resources into the videos.
As long as there is a variety of players and techniques represented, then there is choice ~ and that can result in decisions toward the individual player developing thier own distinct style... I would suggest, but you probably already have a hand on that, that the focus be on the instrument and close enough to see what the bow or hands are doing, maybe even from a couple of different angles camera-wise.
As Kennedy says, and I can vouch for that ~ there is no way anyone is going to sound 'exactly' as the person they follow, how ever much passion they may have behind pursuing that end. Yeah, there were the copiers of Coleman way back when, but it was always obvious they were 'copiers'... I don't think that is a worry, but it can be a blessing, if it raises the quality and appreciation of the person doing the following.
Ryan is right, some folks are out in the sticks and haven't had the luxury some of us have had of meeting up with living sources.
I do have one worry ~ the increase and proliferation of Irish Tradition via the media. By its nature it is compact and out of context. There are limitations, the tune or turn to learn, and there is rarely any time given to those elements of the tradition that I particularly value high, higher than the tune or the twiddly bits. Yes, it is in part history, but it is a whole gamut of humours, from the joyous to the blues... There is a strength in the music and the tradition, the social elements, the laughter caught up in a tune, the pathos in an air, that becomes clinical in the distillation of media, the packaging. I am not sure how to hold on to and present at least some aspect of this. Maybe a little introduction, the musician saying hi and weaving a small bit of the story behind the tune and their playing before things get clinical. I'd also suggest, like exercising, you have that suggestion of the warm-up, then there's the workout, and then finish back with the musician again and maybe a little more of that context, the cool down... Yeah, that would be a real plus, not just 'technique', but 'context' too... Quality, not quantity, either in tunes or twiddles...
But, great idea, I'd love to be able to direct others to such a resource, but do your damnedest to introduce some 'life' and 'soul' to it, not just dots and fancy bits...not just technique...
Based on the response I've received to my 40+ online videos at tradlessons.com, people seem quite happy being able to see as well as hear the playing, particularly in the area of watching the execution of ornaments on the whistle.
I'll be even more specific on the bowing pattern request---so many times I'll sit down with a tune, either one I have on a cd or one that's written, and I'll get the notes into my fingers, but then I get stuck because I can't figure out how to bring the notes together with the bow so that I can get a good rhythm going and also don't bow myself into a corner. I would LOVE to see a video of some fiddler taking apart a tune and figuring out the best way to bow the notes. If it could also give me some hints on how to figure this out for myself, on my own, that would be even better.
I have a feeling that this might just be one of those things it takes years to learn, but I figure it can't hurt to ask...
Ditto ~ and again, the various styles, short and long, and maybe it would be a great addition to have navigation available by that, so if someone wants to focus on say Ulster styles of bowing, they can find a category for that, or Clare, or Sliabh Luachra / the Southwest... That would be cool. I am definitely in Kennedy's corner... I eagerly look forward to it...
As a reply to wounded hussar -- yes, this is an aural tradition, but one that is heard AND WATCHED as you sit next to players in a session or in a class. There are so many people that have taken up this music that don't have access to teachers or sessions. Even in big cities with loads of sessions, beginner and intermediate players are sometimes not very welcome. Videos are not a substitute, but a nice extra resource to have. I have thought whistle players to be very lucky to have Ryan and Michael's videos (and I hear Michael will be putting up some piping videos as well?). Kudos to CCE for taking on doing this for other instruments. Maybe we could get some better bodran players out of it ; )
Sounds like there's a lot of interest out there in bowing styles ... which admittedly is tricky to get from an audio recording! It can be done, mostly be slowing things *way* down, but it's tricky at best to figure out. Whereas with the video, at least you can see what's going on with the bow movements, see the cross-bowings and so forth.
The obvious people that I'd get for the fiddle tutorials would be teachers like Paddy Ryan, Kathleen Nesbitt, Attracta Brady, Sean Montgomery -- all musicians with a lot of experience communicating the tradition. I'm thinking specifically of the sort of people who "teach the teachers" at the Comhaltas TTCT teachers' certification course. Last year we had the above fiddlers, Janet Harbison on harp, Kay Webster, Majella Bartley and Mary Nugent on flute - all fine players and educators. My real question comes down to, "If you got to be in a room with a really good player and teacher for a while, what would you ask them to demonstrate or break down for you?" That's where shooting a video can come in handy.
I'm also seeing two schools of thought: the people wanting instrumental technique, and the folks wanting repertoire and tune context. It's easier to talk about instrumental technique in a video - you can show the fingers, obviously, and even do tricks with slow-motion to slow down what's actually happening with fingers during an ornament, for example. From that point of view, video would seem to work well as a teaching medium.
I certainly don't want to pretend that video lessons can take the place of either a teacher or session experience. I'm just hoping to fill in some of the gaps -- more of a 'masterclass' idea aimed at improvers, perhaps? All of this is quite embryonic, of course - I haven't actually asked anyone yet! But it's something I'd like to get done this year, if possible.
So, what else would people find useful in their own journeys?
Apologies Breandan, I addtessed you as Barry. Please, if you're going to launch these tutorials, go for the best. The guys I mentioned above aren't half bad for starters
Don't let they fiddlers dictate, there's all us other string players to accomodate
No doubt about it free tutorials on the Internet for Irish Music would be a great thing if it were in time and sufficient.
But lets face it CCE, ye had a go and charged for the punter for the privilidge of hearing what the punters grandparents gave for free, gratis and without condition not 50 years ago! Ye have shown yourselves to be a bunch of thankless mean spirited crooks and that you are in Dublin is no surprise to those of us who grew up in rural Ireland and came to know the real meaning of Jackeen.
Enough!
The Reverend OTOH is doing what my grandfather ( fiddler ) and his brother ( piper and pipe maker ) as well as their then emigrated to Wexford flute playing brother did, sharing it for free.
Sure we had a bit of that growing up, but lessons on bowing - you are kidding OC - too many cows to milk feed and take care of, did I mention chickens, pigs, dairy churns and the rest?
Nobody had the time for it, besides music in those years was a halfcrown Clarke's Tinwhistle and maybe a three shilling Hohner mouth organ. Sure the odd house had an Accordion or a Fiddle but it was the odd house! And in it live odd people who everybody knew had to be mental as their doors were never painted not their land cared for.
In a way Irish Music died when CCE and the other middle class intellectuals discovere O Niell. Pity that day!
It is somewhat similar to the Gaelic League trying to save the Irish Language for the rest of Ireland while they themselves steal the very heart and soul of the country, I mean how the hell can you translate Russell of Newby into Irish? Well they did and guess what the few old Irish families left in Ireland are going going gone because they can't be bushed to learn Englified Irish. Meee Toooo.
The bits I got, all came from Conemearra men on the building sites of post WW2 England.
So ye CCE can go to hell for all we care out here.
I call what we Irish do with Irish music today 'style' just like what our grandparents did in theirs, and it is that which you are trying to shove back down our throats today.
AInt workin dude as they say out here.
Keep yer main websites and go peddle it someplace else CCE.
The Rev is well liked out here not only because he is a good musician, but like my Grandfather also because he is honest.
I have watched a lot of instructional videos on various instruments, one thing I never seen though is a lesson with one-row melodeon, it seems to me that this instrument are becoming more popular. I belive that much of (never played a one-row) the two-row techniques can be used on the on-row, but there are probably some unique techniques aswell.
For other instruments it woukd be nice with more intermediat/advanced levels, the fiddle videos available at the market seems to just cover the basics, fiddling that almost every experinced player can teach you.
Why not use a stylistic approach, get one of the "stars" on various styles (clare, dongal etc.) to give a lesson
I think all types of video coachng is very useful. In all types of music (even those usually played from dots) there is a lot that you gain by seeing the mannerisms and body attitudes of a good player. This is hard to quantify, but as a teacher I am convinced that it is important. I think it's an important part of getting "in the zone".
Also, there are many technical aspects of playing an instrument that are more easily observed visually (bowing patterns, hand positions, etc). A picture is worth 1,000 words.
I agree with ceolachan that none of this is a substitute for social and cultural context, but since people are going to play Irish nusic without that anyway, a visual is closer than just an audio.
The lessons areà great idea, even just an audio file would be good , with the notation is ABC format and notes in the same link, whereby you could click the icon the notation and video/window file would appear on the same page. That would be perfect for me anyway.
A catalogue would be a great resource then for anybody to dip in and out off.
the present format gives you the notation and the audio/video files seperately.
Grma
Tom
"Thankless, mean-spirited crooks?" Gosh, and here I was trying to think of something I could spend my nights and weekends working on so that I could post it (for free), helping folks learn more about the music ....
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions guys, and I'll let you know what I come up with. Keep 'em coming, or email me off-list if you have any ideas.
Yep, I can see the value of video footage for figuring out a technique or awkward passage. But I can also perceive a 'danger' in a novice learning by video and concentrating on which finger to move, where and when. It becomes a mechanical exercise of memorising and matching finger movements. Maybe that's no different than a novice learning a tune off the dots and memorising a pattern of notes or maybe it is, I don't know. But I do know that both ultimately get in the way and the learner must go to a stage where they can hear a note or sequence of notes and play it without thinking about what their fingers, bowing hand or whatever is doing. At that point, video etc. is irrelevant and needless is it not?
There has been an explosion in online video footage with YouTube etc. in the past year and people like pics. but in terms of teaching ITM or any music, I would think there must be limitations that are worth figuring out before investing a lot of time and energy into such a project.
I would have thought Breandan, that perhaps a selection of video footage aimed (1) at novices starting off, a few basic tunes/ airs (2) a section on technique (3) Geantrai type material as Ceolachan suggests (4) with 1 & 2 above repeated for a variety of trad. instruments. That would cover most bases but if you went down the road of say, producing video lessons for multiple sets of tunes ala Foinn Seisuin, then you'd be in danger of people falling into trap I mention above.
I think as a novice , living in the suburbs of a city where we were brought up on a trad of hurling and other sports and ITM was something they did in clare and places like that were they couldnt even hold a hurley the right way round, we dont have grand parents or neighbours to gives us a collection simple session tunes . A lot of cd's dvds from professionals are played with a lot of ornamentation and breakneck speed, a resource like this would be great. I go to comhaltas once a week but it is only about half an hour for about 9 weeks every term.Its great and ive learned a lot. But Im not good enough to sit in to a session and I not sure the neighbours would appreciate me knocking at there door wondering if they know how to "saddle the pony" or did "they bury the wife and danced all over her" id get a slap of a hurley for me troubles.
My point is this is needed for the ordinary punter tipping away at their instuments so comhaltas go ahead with it . maybe have different levels , whereby people can dip in and out, if i could play every tune in the Fonn Seisuin a would be pretty pleased. If this is the only resource I can achieve that ,how bad?
Frig the begrudgers
Bail o dhia ar an dea-obair
maith sibh
Tom
Picking an appropriate level will be tough. I was hoping to side-step the question (partly) by focusing on what Ryan calls "the finer points of playing." Video is probably overkill for learning repertoire. There are so many tunes out there from so many sources, written and aural, that presenting even a representative collection of tunes in a video format wouldn't be helpful, I don't think. (Though we're working away on Foinn Seisiún Book 3, which *is* a repertoire project.)
But the "finer points" -- ah, there's something that video is good at. Sure, you teach ITM by teaching a tune, but it's almost arbitrary which one you pick, as long as it contains the feature you want to teach. Irish music includes notes, sure, but the "irishness" is more about rhythm and ornamentation, and both are highly idiosyncratic for each instrument. I figure that having some good players demonstrate some of these finer points - the ideosyncracies of how articulation work on a flute, how rolls work on a fiddle, how triplets work on a melodeon and how harmonies work on a box might be a good use of time. What do you think?
Like everyone else here, we have only very limited resources - I guess I'm trying to find a programme or curriculum that would help the novice player learn how to play Irish music on a particular instrument, but still contain a degree of detail helpful to the more advanced student. And in ITM, we're all students. I know that in masterclasses I've gone to with good players, there's always something there that I come back to years later, even if when I was in the class I wasn't a good enough player to appreciate the subtlety of what was demonstrated.
Can I ask you a question Breandan ? Is this still a notion or have you actually approached guys with the view to tutoring ?
I don't envy your task, it's a difficult job to accomodate everyone. If it's at all feasible, I'd second wounded hussar's suggestion give guys an option as to what level they want to view.
Will it be possible to correspond with the tutors about a specific query ? Have you considered that ? Any which way you go , good luck.
Strathfoyle - Still just a notion! But like most projects around here, it starts as an idea, and then we figure out how we can make it happen. Like the Foinn Seisiún books and CDs, or the new http://comhaltas.ie, for that matter. I have some ideas about tutors to approach -- it's clearly easiest for me to use teachers from Scoil Éigse, from the TTCT, from the ranks of Fleadh adjudicators, because those are the guys I know, but I'd love to get more suggestions on people to approach.
I was asking about formats because obviously I can't just sit someone down in front of a camera and say, "You have 10 minutes - now teach!" I need a structure, a format, a curriculum, a shooting script. It's all a lot of work, of course, but I'm happy to take it on if it seems like it would be useful to people learning or improving their mastery of Irish Traditional Music.
b - you might want to look at Violin Masterclass for ideas on presentation and breaking things down into manageable pieces---most of the time they pair an instructor with a student, and the instructor explains what the student is doing and how to do it, and then the student does it---sometimes they even have the student do it wrong so they can demonstrate a correction---here's one clip:
They also have a few clips on theory, which I think would be great for Irish music (even though it's primarily learned by ear) because it would be an opportunity to talk about the modal scales in the music, which is something you don't see very often. You could even use that to talk about accompaniment techniques (we have lots of threads here on those, but it would be even better demonstrated). Here's a clip as an example:
Another idea that occurs to me is that you might want to use a few dancers---it is dance music, after all, and it would be great to see the difference between a jig, slip jig, barndance, polka, reel, hop jig, mazurka, etc. etc. with real dancers responding to the music.
Thats a good point about playing with dancers. I had the chance to play with dancers and was told they have to be led in so to speak. Play the A part 3 times to start with. Playing with dancers would be of strong importance...for me anyway. I'm too fat to take it up meself though.
I think this point has been made clearly, but it seems video is a good idea, not just (or even at all) because of details that you can see, but just because it is so much more involving, as anyone who's done any teacher training will know. We are human beings.
But my main point was to wonder whether you've had contact with the people like Conal O'Grada who were behind Scoiltrad? It seemed so good, people liked it, but it didn't last long. I don't know what the difficulty was, but it could be worth your while to pick their brains if you can - you might avoid a pitfall that way.
Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Following on from the discussion http://thesession.org/discussions/display/12983 of Ryan Duns' excellent online YouTube whistle lessons, I just wanted to ask the ITM community what you'd like to see online as far as tutorials?
Yesterday in the office at Comhaltas we were talking about filming a series of video tutorials on various instruments and putting them online. Our thoughts so far revolved around finding experienced teachers, having them play through tunes at normal and slow speeds, and then have them explain the 'tricky' bits about the tune, whatever made it interesting on their instrument. The whole thing would be aimed at an intermediate audience - people who could play the basics on their instrument (scales, basic rhythms) but wanted a bit of a boost in playing traditional music. I was thinking about a weekly series, with maybe 25 lessons.
What does everyone think? What would you want to see in an online video lesson, and how would you like it structured? Would you want downloadable printed material as well (beyond the notation for the tunes) or just focus on the videos?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by b
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
No disrespect to all those who puts lots of time into Video tutorials but I sometimes find myself wondering why the need for Video. Surely its an aural tradition and I would have thought that the learning musician (aren't we all) would be better to learn where the notes are on their chosen instrument, how to sound ornaments and then just follow the tune, albeit oftimes slowed down. I would venture to suggest that trying to follow someone's else fingering is counter productive and even distracting.
I can see the point for videos on aspects of ornamentation - I have found videos useful for cuts and rolls etc. But not for learning tunes.
Personally, I have made good use of the Foinn Seisuin CD's and books and would think that type of material is all that is needed - good strong clear playing. I also record session but sometimes due to background noise and other factors, they can be harder to follow.
Yes, everyone loves video in the 'modern' world but is it the best way to approach teaching/ learning music, I wonder?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Hi Barry,
You definitely raise a good question - are videos the way to go? I had to struggle with this as I am wholly unaccustomed to teaching in any manner apart from direct, 1-on-1 lessons.
But, as I have reflected on it, I have come to see the videos as eminently auricular. I doubt there are many who would say that the only sensation one experiences in a sesiun is sound -- truly, a good sesiun plays upon multiple sensations, admittedly highlighted by hearing, but sensations drawn together in an organic whole of the experience.
The problem I have found in judging music at feiseanna and doing workshops is that the number of self-taught musicians has led to an interesting dilemma. While on the one hand the proliferation of self-tutored musicians is a testimony to the power of the Irish music to captivate the hearts of listeners, there is a pronounced and woeful lack of understanding of the finer points of playing. The result has been a lot of people who play instruments associated with Irish music, but this does not an Irish musician make.
The "traditional" of "traditional Irish music" rests on its having been handed down through the generations. My great-grandfather and my great-aunt (a box playing Ursuline nun) handed to me a number of tunes that I now teach my students. It's not a matter of getting the tune right, but getting the whole experience...of surrendering oneself to the larger tradition and, in the act of surrender, finding one's own place and voice in the tradition.
Videos accomplish, in some way, this -- it's yet another medium of handing on what has been received. Any concerted effort to induct listeners and interested students into the tradition must be received with open arms, but with the caution of ensuring that the tradition is maintained. When we rely solely on books or single-sources, we risk forgetting the plurality of voices that bespeak the beauty of our tradition.
Furthermore, a number of the people who watch my videos are unable to find a teacher in their area (Surprisingly, there are many teachers in Moscow or Korea). Perhaps it is part of my Jesuit spirit, but I look at teaching on-line as evangelization, sharing with others the good news of Irish music. The story of Irish music, like the gospel, can wrap each of us within itself, recalling for us those who came before us and asking us now how we wish to shape our lives and how we want our voices to be heard. For it is these voices - from Korea to Moscow to Boise to Chicago - that will be passed down to the next generation.
My intermediate videos will dwell more on the history of tunes and elements of the tradition that the beginners videos (due to time) cannot. But I see this as the next step in the evolution of music - not to exclude what has come before but, rather, to deepen it.
I teach for free (luxury of a vow of poverty) but I know that this isn't feasible. I would hate, however, to think that cost would ever be a stumbling block to a kid learning to play music. My hope is that if CCE enters into this forum, it will find a way to offer the lessons so that they are accessible to all so that more people will feel empowered to contribute their voice to the tradition of Irish music.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by RyanDunsSJ
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
I see your point, Ryan and it's well made. But taking that view, perhaps the best video would be like a typical Geantrai (ITM TV show shot in various pubs) session. You know, the musicians as a whole playing a tune, zooming in now and again on individuals.
Online tutorials tend to be different, I think. Any I've seen focus mostly on the fingers, a close up of the instrument. I just tend to think it's like the 'dots versus the ears' arguement. If the notes on the page 'get in the way' of learning a tune, well so does trying to copy someone else's finger movements.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
But hey!, that's only my limited and not fixed opinion and I'm sure lots of people find them useful
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Hi Barry,
Please do it. I have to admit I have learned as much from watching as listening to date. It's always been beneficial for me sitting in with better players , watching their right hand technique etc. (banjo player here). I've had the privilege of sharing a few tunes with the likes of Cathal Hayden, Joe Molloy and Tommy Finn to name a few and as I reiterate, I've always come away with something.
I've got to admit also, some of the advice given on this site has been a great help too. I look forward to your videos. Thanks again for the new look CCE site, a great job.
Strathfoyle
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Fiddle bowing patterns! I've been studying about 10 months now and thanks to my teacher I'm beginning to get the hang of them, but they're still quite mysterious and any additional exposure would be terrific.
Maybe you could show a specific pattern applied to several tunes, or several patterns applied to one tune. At several speeds. In small and large chunks, note-by-note, building up to phrases and then the whole tune.
And Hussar, I don't think there's anything wrong with copying someone else's finger movements. I'm never going to sound like anyone else, anyway (if only I *could* sound like Kevin Burke just from watching him!). A nice clear example (or several of them) would only be a help to give me ideas on different ways of getting the sound I want. I can pick and choose from what works and what I like.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Oh, also, I wouldn't bother with printed material. You'd have to have masses of written information and it wouldn't really capture the demonstrations anyway. Better to put your resources into the videos.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Just to add to kennedy's request, an emphasis and explanations on phrasing etc would also be beneficial.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
As long as there is a variety of players and techniques represented, then there is choice ~ and that can result in decisions toward the individual player developing thier own distinct style... I would suggest, but you probably already have a hand on that, that the focus be on the instrument and close enough to see what the bow or hands are doing, maybe even from a couple of different angles camera-wise.
As Kennedy says, and I can vouch for that ~ there is no way anyone is going to sound 'exactly' as the person they follow, how ever much passion they may have behind pursuing that end. Yeah, there were the copiers of Coleman way back when, but it was always obvious they were 'copiers'... I don't think that is a worry, but it can be a blessing, if it raises the quality and appreciation of the person doing the following.
Ryan is right, some folks are out in the sticks and haven't had the luxury some of us have had of meeting up with living sources.
I do have one worry ~ the increase and proliferation of Irish Tradition via the media. By its nature it is compact and out of context. There are limitations, the tune or turn to learn, and there is rarely any time given to those elements of the tradition that I particularly value high, higher than the tune or the twiddly bits. Yes, it is in part history, but it is a whole gamut of humours, from the joyous to the blues... There is a strength in the music and the tradition, the social elements, the laughter caught up in a tune, the pathos in an air, that becomes clinical in the distillation of media, the packaging. I am not sure how to hold on to and present at least some aspect of this. Maybe a little introduction, the musician saying hi and weaving a small bit of the story behind the tune and their playing before things get clinical. I'd also suggest, like exercising, you have that suggestion of the warm-up, then there's the workout, and then finish back with the musician again and maybe a little more of that context, the cool down... Yeah, that would be a real plus, not just 'technique', but 'context' too... Quality, not quantity, either in tunes or twiddles...
But, great idea, I'd love to be able to direct others to such a resource, but do your damnedest to introduce some 'life' and 'soul' to it, not just dots and fancy bits...not just technique...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by ceolachan
Make it laugh and dance....
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Based on the response I've received to my 40+ online videos at tradlessons.com, people seem quite happy being able to see as well as hear the playing, particularly in the area of watching the execution of ornaments on the whistle.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Michael Eskin
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
I'll be even more specific on the bowing pattern request---so many times I'll sit down with a tune, either one I have on a cd or one that's written, and I'll get the notes into my fingers, but then I get stuck because I can't figure out how to bring the notes together with the bow so that I can get a good rhythm going and also don't bow myself into a corner. I would LOVE to see a video of some fiddler taking apart a tune and figuring out the best way to bow the notes. If it could also give me some hints on how to figure this out for myself, on my own, that would be even better.
I have a feeling that this might just be one of those things it takes years to learn, but I figure it can't hurt to ask...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Ditto ~ and again, the various styles, short and long, and maybe it would be a great addition to have navigation available by that, so if someone wants to focus on say Ulster styles of bowing, they can find a category for that, or Clare, or Sliabh Luachra / the Southwest... That would be cool. I am definitely in Kennedy's corner... I eagerly look forward to it...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
As a reply to wounded hussar -- yes, this is an aural tradition, but one that is heard AND WATCHED as you sit next to players in a session or in a class. There are so many people that have taken up this music that don't have access to teachers or sessions. Even in big cities with loads of sessions, beginner and intermediate players are sometimes not very welcome. Videos are not a substitute, but a nice extra resource to have. I have thought whistle players to be very lucky to have Ryan and Michael's videos (and I hear Michael will be putting up some piping videos as well?). Kudos to CCE for taking on doing this for other instruments. Maybe we could get some better bodran players out of it ; )
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by zoetrope
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Sounds like there's a lot of interest out there in bowing styles ... which admittedly is tricky to get from an audio recording! It can be done, mostly be slowing things *way* down, but it's tricky at best to figure out. Whereas with the video, at least you can see what's going on with the bow movements, see the cross-bowings and so forth.
The obvious people that I'd get for the fiddle tutorials would be teachers like Paddy Ryan, Kathleen Nesbitt, Attracta Brady, Sean Montgomery -- all musicians with a lot of experience communicating the tradition. I'm thinking specifically of the sort of people who "teach the teachers" at the Comhaltas TTCT teachers' certification course. Last year we had the above fiddlers, Janet Harbison on harp, Kay Webster, Majella Bartley and Mary Nugent on flute - all fine players and educators. My real question comes down to, "If you got to be in a room with a really good player and teacher for a while, what would you ask them to demonstrate or break down for you?" That's where shooting a video can come in handy.
I'm also seeing two schools of thought: the people wanting instrumental technique, and the folks wanting repertoire and tune context. It's easier to talk about instrumental technique in a video - you can show the fingers, obviously, and even do tricks with slow-motion to slow down what's actually happening with fingers during an ornament, for example. From that point of view, video would seem to work well as a teaching medium.
I certainly don't want to pretend that video lessons can take the place of either a teacher or session experience. I'm just hoping to fill in some of the gaps -- more of a 'masterclass' idea aimed at improvers, perhaps? All of this is quite embryonic, of course - I haven't actually asked anyone yet! But it's something I'd like to get done this year, if possible.
So, what else would people find useful in their own journeys?
-- Breandán
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by b
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Apologies Breandan, I addtessed you as Barry. Please, if you're going to launch these tutorials, go for the best. The guys I mentioned above aren't half bad for starters
Don't let they fiddlers dictate, there's all us other string players to accomodate
Adh mor ort
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
No doubt about it free tutorials on the Internet for Irish Music would be a great thing if it were in time and sufficient.
But lets face it CCE, ye had a go and charged for the punter for the privilidge of hearing what the punters grandparents gave for free, gratis and without condition not 50 years ago! Ye have shown yourselves to be a bunch of thankless mean spirited crooks and that you are in Dublin is no surprise to those of us who grew up in rural Ireland and came to know the real meaning of Jackeen.
Enough!
The Reverend OTOH is doing what my grandfather ( fiddler ) and his brother ( piper and pipe maker ) as well as their then emigrated to Wexford flute playing brother did, sharing it for free.
Sure we had a bit of that growing up, but lessons on bowing - you are kidding OC - too many cows to milk feed and take care of, did I mention chickens, pigs, dairy churns and the rest?
Nobody had the time for it, besides music in those years was a halfcrown Clarke's Tinwhistle and maybe a three shilling Hohner mouth organ. Sure the odd house had an Accordion or a Fiddle but it was the odd house! And in it live odd people who everybody knew had to be mental as their doors were never painted not their land cared for.
In a way Irish Music died when CCE and the other middle class intellectuals discovere O Niell. Pity that day!
It is somewhat similar to the Gaelic League trying to save the Irish Language for the rest of Ireland while they themselves steal the very heart and soul of the country, I mean how the hell can you translate Russell of Newby into Irish? Well they did and guess what the few old Irish families left in Ireland are going going gone because they can't be bushed to learn Englified Irish. Meee Toooo.
The bits I got, all came from Conemearra men on the building sites of post WW2 England.
So ye CCE can go to hell for all we care out here.
I call what we Irish do with Irish music today 'style' just like what our grandparents did in theirs, and it is that which you are trying to shove back down our throats today.
AInt workin dude as they say out here.
Keep yer main websites and go peddle it someplace else CCE.
The Rev is well liked out here not only because he is a good musician, but like my Grandfather also because he is honest.
:0)
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
I'd like to see a man eating bananna's.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by fap
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
I have watched a lot of instructional videos on various instruments, one thing I never seen though is a lesson with one-row melodeon, it seems to me that this instrument are becoming more popular. I belive that much of (never played a one-row) the two-row techniques can be used on the on-row, but there are probably some unique techniques aswell.
For other instruments it woukd be nice with more intermediat/advanced levels, the fiddle videos available at the market seems to just cover the basics, fiddling that almost every experinced player can teach you.
Why not use a stylistic approach, get one of the "stars" on various styles (clare, dongal etc.) to give a lesson
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TradLad
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Do you think the Beatle will ever get back together?
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ray Mariani
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Bit harsh there uileannified, You can't tar everyone with the same brush ! A lot of good people involved with CCE !
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
I think all types of video coachng is very useful. In all types of music (even those usually played from dots) there is a lot that you gain by seeing the mannerisms and body attitudes of a good player. This is hard to quantify, but as a teacher I am convinced that it is important. I think it's an important part of getting "in the zone".
Also, there are many technical aspects of playing an instrument that are more easily observed visually (bowing patterns, hand positions, etc). A picture is worth 1,000 words.
I agree with ceolachan that none of this is a substitute for social and cultural context, but since people are going to play Irish nusic without that anyway, a visual is closer than just an audio.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by kris
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Irish nusic? (something I just invented)
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by kris
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
I've just completed the DVD of the first 41 whistle videos on the TradLessons.com site, please contact me off-list if interested in more information.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Michael Eskin
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
The lessons areà great idea, even just an audio file would be good , with the notation is ABC format and notes in the same link, whereby you could click the icon the notation and video/window file would appear on the same page. That would be perfect for me anyway.
A catalogue would be a great resource then for anybody to dip in and out off.
the present format gives you the notation and the audio/video files seperately.
Grma
Tom
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TOMMYB
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
"Thankless, mean-spirited crooks?" Gosh, and here I was trying to think of something I could spend my nights and weekends working on so that I could post it (for free), helping folks learn more about the music ....
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions guys, and I'll let you know what I come up with. Keep 'em coming, or email me off-list if you have any ideas.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by b
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Yep, I can see the value of video footage for figuring out a technique or awkward passage. But I can also perceive a 'danger' in a novice learning by video and concentrating on which finger to move, where and when. It becomes a mechanical exercise of memorising and matching finger movements. Maybe that's no different than a novice learning a tune off the dots and memorising a pattern of notes or maybe it is, I don't know. But I do know that both ultimately get in the way and the learner must go to a stage where they can hear a note or sequence of notes and play it without thinking about what their fingers, bowing hand or whatever is doing. At that point, video etc. is irrelevant and needless is it not?
There has been an explosion in online video footage with YouTube etc. in the past year and people like pics. but in terms of teaching ITM or any music, I would think there must be limitations that are worth figuring out before investing a lot of time and energy into such a project.
I would have thought Breandan, that perhaps a selection of video footage aimed (1) at novices starting off, a few basic tunes/ airs (2) a section on technique (3) Geantrai type material as Ceolachan suggests (4) with 1 & 2 above repeated for a variety of trad. instruments. That would cover most bases but if you went down the road of say, producing video lessons for multiple sets of tunes ala Foinn Seisuin, then you'd be in danger of people falling into trap I mention above.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
I think as a novice , living in the suburbs of a city where we were brought up on a trad of hurling and other sports and ITM was something they did in clare and places like that were they couldnt even hold a hurley the right way round, we dont have grand parents or neighbours to gives us a collection simple session tunes . A lot of cd's dvds from professionals are played with a lot of ornamentation and breakneck speed, a resource like this would be great. I go to comhaltas once a week but it is only about half an hour for about 9 weeks every term.Its great and ive learned a lot. But Im not good enough to sit in to a session and I not sure the neighbours would appreciate me knocking at there door wondering if they know how to "saddle the pony" or did "they bury the wife and danced all over her" id get a slap of a hurley for me troubles.
My point is this is needed for the ordinary punter tipping away at their instuments so comhaltas go ahead with it . maybe have different levels , whereby people can dip in and out, if i could play every tune in the Fonn Seisuin a would be pretty pleased. If this is the only resource I can achieve that ,how bad?
Frig the begrudgers
Bail o dhia ar an dea-obair
maith sibh
Tom
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TOMMYB
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Picking an appropriate level will be tough. I was hoping to side-step the question (partly) by focusing on what Ryan calls "the finer points of playing." Video is probably overkill for learning repertoire. There are so many tunes out there from so many sources, written and aural, that presenting even a representative collection of tunes in a video format wouldn't be helpful, I don't think. (Though we're working away on Foinn Seisiún Book 3, which *is* a repertoire project.)
But the "finer points" -- ah, there's something that video is good at. Sure, you teach ITM by teaching a tune, but it's almost arbitrary which one you pick, as long as it contains the feature you want to teach. Irish music includes notes, sure, but the "irishness" is more about rhythm and ornamentation, and both are highly idiosyncratic for each instrument. I figure that having some good players demonstrate some of these finer points - the ideosyncracies of how articulation work on a flute, how rolls work on a fiddle, how triplets work on a melodeon and how harmonies work on a box might be a good use of time. What do you think?
Like everyone else here, we have only very limited resources - I guess I'm trying to find a programme or curriculum that would help the novice player learn how to play Irish music on a particular instrument, but still contain a degree of detail helpful to the more advanced student. And in ITM, we're all students.
I know that in masterclasses I've gone to with good players, there's always something there that I come back to years later, even if when I was in the class I wasn't a good enough player to appreciate the subtlety of what was demonstrated.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by b
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Can I ask you a question Breandan ? Is this still a notion or have you actually approached guys with the view to tutoring ?
I don't envy your task, it's a difficult job to accomodate everyone. If it's at all feasible, I'd second wounded hussar's suggestion give guys an option as to what level they want to view.
Will it be possible to correspond with the tutors about a specific query ? Have you considered that ? Any which way you go , good luck.
Adh mor ort
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
The following covers some points of interest relevant to this discussion?
Discussion: "YouTube Lessons"
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by RyanDunsSJ
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12983
~ you might be interested in reading some research on online teaching:
http://homepage.mac.com/smallpiper/masters/
Anna
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Anna Karlsson
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Strathfoyle - Still just a notion! But like most projects around here, it starts as an idea, and then we figure out how we can make it happen. Like the Foinn Seisiún books and CDs, or the new http://comhaltas.ie, for that matter. I have some ideas about tutors to approach -- it's clearly easiest for me to use teachers from Scoil Éigse, from the TTCT, from the ranks of Fleadh adjudicators, because those are the guys I know, but I'd love to get more suggestions on people to approach.
I was asking about formats because obviously I can't just sit someone down in front of a camera and say, "You have 10 minutes - now teach!" I need a structure, a format, a curriculum, a shooting script. It's all a lot of work, of course, but I'm happy to take it on if it seems like it would be useful to people learning or improving their mastery of Irish Traditional Music.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by b
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
b - you might want to look at Violin Masterclass for ideas on presentation and breaking things down into manageable pieces---most of the time they pair an instructor with a student, and the instructor explains what the student is doing and how to do it, and then the student does it---sometimes they even have the student do it wrong so they can demonstrate a correction---here's one clip:
http://violinmasterclass.com/bowspeed_qt.php?video=spd_exer2&sctn=Exercises
They also have a few clips on theory, which I think would be great for Irish music (even though it's primarily learned by ear) because it would be an opportunity to talk about the modal scales in the music, which is something you don't see very often. You could even use that to talk about accompaniment techniques (we have lots of threads here on those, but it would be even better demonstrated). Here's a clip as an example:
http://violinmasterclass.com/intonation_qt.php?video=int_def1&sctn=Definition
Another idea that occurs to me is that you might want to use a few dancers---it is dance music, after all, and it would be great to see the difference between a jig, slip jig, barndance, polka, reel, hop jig, mazurka, etc. etc. with real dancers responding to the music.
And don't forget the slow airs!
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
Thats a good point about playing with dancers. I had the chance to play with dancers and was told they have to be led in so to speak. Play the A part 3 times to start with. Playing with dancers would be of strong importance...for me anyway. I'm too fat to take it up meself though.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Ray Mariani
Re: Video Tutorials Online - what would you like?
I think this point has been made clearly, but it seems video is a good idea, not just (or even at all) because of details that you can see, but just because it is so much more involving, as anyone who's done any teacher training will know. We are human beings.
But my main point was to wonder whether you've had contact with the people like Conal O'Grada who were behind Scoiltrad? It seemed so good, people liked it, but it didn't last long. I don't know what the difficulty was, but it could be worth your while to pick their brains if you can - you might avoid a pitfall that way.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Lingpupa