"There is a long history of the connection between music and politics, particularly political expression in music. This expression has most often used anti-establishment or protest themes, although pro-establishment ideas are also used, for example in national anthems." - So says Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_and_politics
What got me thinking about this was Dan's post in a thread next door, when he had this to say about his approach to enjoying playing ITM:
"Part of the appeal of playing Irish music - for me, anyway - is playing something and thinking,
"This is the same music that fought English oppression."
"This is the same music that brought the Irish spirit to America."
"This is the same music that created and bound a community in America."
"This is the same music that saved Ireland's morale from complete collapse."
Fair play to Dan, he of course has every right to enjoy his music whichever way he chooses.
I personally don't like to mix politics & music. However, living in Norn Iron as I do, it's often hard to escape the connections, when the two main sides of the *argument* up here, constantly trot out their own brand of so called musical culture at public events & gatherings, to bolster their image.
For my part, I play many different forms of Trad music & often play sets which include music from different countries, so I think I'd get myself in a real fankle if I were to mix political thinking with my music.
For Dan's part, he also says that:
"This is the same music that Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford and Padraig O'Keefe played."
"This is the same music a thousand nameless masters before me played."
"There's a connection to something greater that makes the music meaningful."
Now these latter feelings are much more akin to my own thoughts, were I to be actually thinking about anything at all, when I played.
So having read Dan's post, it made me wonder just how many musicians here play simply for the love of the music, the sounds the instruments make alone & together, the craic & the camaraderie etc etc?
How many think of stuff like the old masters, the beauty of Ireland, old friends & musicians past & gone & old sessions they have enjoyed etc etc.
On the other hand, how many are actually caught up in the politics of Ireland when they play & perhaps feel that ITM has perhaps had a significant role to play in Ireland's history?
Facing up to reality though, I realise that this thread is probably on a hiding to nothing as those who are political in their musical approach may well be unlikely to respond & show their cards, while those who, like myself just play for the simple pleasure that the act gives them, will have absolutely no interest in contributing to this thread, as it will mean absolutely nothing to them.
Oh well, if you got this far ..... thanks for reading.
Love the music, hate the politics.
Years ago I was at a session in Kilkenny where the then minister for agriculture, Jim Gibbons, was asked to do a "party piece" ( this was before the latest episode of " the troubles" ,about 1967ish) He proudly sang The Sash. Two or three years later, he would have been hung for singing an Orange song. Someday we'll get back to that level of sanity.
Be aware, I suppose, that the comments were about why I prefer older tunes to modern ones. Were I to explain why I play at all, "for the love of the music, the sounds the instruments make alone & together, the craic & the camaraderie" pretty much nails it on the head. I try to think of it, by the by, less as a matter of political activism and more a matter of appreciation for the richness of the history. Tune histories make me happy!
I don't understand anything like the whole story behind some Irish music. However, the "politics" behind some pieces of music has also enriched my enjoyment (and that of my audience) as it adds context. For example, Haydn's "Farewell Symphony" was a protest at the money paid to his court orchestra, and closer to home, I originally learned Carolan's "Squire Woods' Lamentation on the Refusal of his Halfpence" because of the great title, only later discovering that that piece has undertones about Irish indepence from England. The Squire Woods piece is still a great piece, but it's even better if you know the story behind it. Having said that, I know enough that I'd be nervous of initiating any tunes in Ireland without finding out about the associations they might have in the minds of the listeners. In that sense, music and politics are pretty much intertwined, whether we like it or not.
This thread intrigues me, many thanks for kicking it off.
I will presume to quote Chris Langan, piper and teacher of pipers, on where I believe some of us feel we touch our feelings about the deeper "why" of playing any style of TRAD:
Chris said (possibly quoting another piper, but who cares?)
"You're talking to past generations in a language that's understood."
Sometime at a session, playing an old tune played by many before me, and danced to by many before my time, I believe I can feel the presence of past generations of musicians and dancers with us. They draw nearer to the sound of the pipes and fiddle, their involvement and longing are a tangible thing in the room, sharing again something that is forever new and forever timeless.
It's not the simple transitory notes we sound, gone like smoke as soon as they are played, I suspect. Rather, it may be the passion and the sense of communion that the music can bring.
Trying to express the inexpressable. Hope it wasn't too E.A Poe. ("Once upon a session weary...")
For me its all about FUN not who my great grandfather was nor for whom I vote, Making music together rather than argument .
The coorperative effort over the indevidual ego
"I believe I can feel the presence of past generations of musicians and dancers with us. They draw nearer to the sound of the pipes and fiddle, their involvement and longing are a tangible thing in the room, sharing again something that is forever new and forever timeles"
This is worse than mere twaddle, it's self delusion of the highest order.
and there's a classic in there of me making an absolute idiot of myself: quote
"I was thinking about tune names not meaning anything, and much as I'd like them not to, some do mean something. The Graf Spey is a nice example. It has nothing of course to do with the German pocket battleship but it has everything to do with huddling round a radio in the winter of 1939, transfixed by far away wranglings in Montevideo. The title of the tune puts it squarly in a time and place, and that's interesting"
Good for you michael to admit that you're not perfect. My favourite quotes from the above twaddle are:
"This is the same music that brought the Irish spirit to America."
"This is the same music that created and bound a community in America"
Oh.
And there was me thinking we generally talked about Irish trad music on this site, not something that bolsters the spirit of a failing expansionist aggressive superpower with a non-elected government.
Sorry I got that one wrong.
In answer to the original question, I'd say most of the time jigs and reels are not political because they usually don't have words. Music usually becomes political when it has words to it. Beethoven's Eroica symphony was political because Beethoven said so. He wrote it celebrate Napoleon's victories. You'd have to be pretty clever to work that out if no-one had told you, cos it's just notes. Anyway waht is meant by "politics" here? Party politics? National or international or class politics? Geopolitics? It's dead easy to ask are politics and music related but a more terse exact definition is required (IMHO.)
I played Andean music before I got into ITM and I was attracted to it for it's beauty and power. I realized soon after I discovered it that it played a distinct role in the politics of Latin America. I was attracted to ITM before I realized its significance as well, and if you compare the two you'll find some basic similarities. Both were from cultures that foreign occupiers attempted to destroy, and both became stronger and more beautiful as a result. They are both a feature of cultures that persevered extreme adversity, and are now expressions of their independence and self-pride.
Another interesting comparison is the similarity between what Chileans call, “penas” and the Irish call, “sessions.” Both started out as informal gatherings for camaraderie and playing traditional music. The Chilean pena has more of an emphasis on politics, but the other similarities are striking.
"And there was me thinking we generally talked about Irish trad music on this site, not something that bolsters the spirit of a failing expansionist aggressive superpower with a non-elected government."
I feel really stupid in that I am sincerely perplexed by this quote. I'm not sure if it's sarcasm, or if somewhere between us I'm missing the idea of the governments of Britain (above description apropos) and Ireland (probably still apropos, but like, a thousand years ago), or what's going on. Clarification, maybe?
"Anyway waht is meant by "politics" here?"
This I can definitely back you on though. I mean, I had really intended to evoke -history-, not politics, although the two are clearly tied. I had, naively enough, not even been thinking about how a phrase like "English oppression" has a bit more punch for some than it does for an American born in 1990. Your query, though, pretty well dives into the vein I seem to have inadvertently nicked.
Michael, just as I pointed out in that thread, the percentage of Irish people interested in traditional music is probably similar to the percentage of Americans interested in American traditional folk music. The same is probably true in Chile as well. I think it's safe to assume that people who are interested in their country's cultural arts have a sense of self-pride and identify with them. I think it would also be safe to assume that it would represent their cultures perseverance, especially if their culture had been severely repressed by an occupying force.
Don't know about the politics I just like the music because of the way it sounds and the fun and I have trying to play it. My Dad loved it so I was raised listening to it and I get a real thrill when I find another lovely tune to learn.
i came to it first purely through the call of the modal minor, which unbeknownst to me was hardwired into my dna.....the receptors just were never activated until i heard galax/roundpeak style appalachian oldtime music, which then led me to itm. then, wooo-woooo, i discovered that a) my paternal grammy was, literally, a tobacco-chewing north carolina hillbilly from exactly that same oldtime-music region; and b) four of my greatgrandparents were famine immigrants. but as time passed, the music came to resonate on all these other levels----its political significance came to be cherished as i gained insight into how my own "fight the power" tendencies are actually rooted in my family history, and the music's tragic and joyous emotional content came to be cherished as i gained insight into the historical/cultural dimensions of my own family's history of tragedy, self-destruction, humor & joy.....so, the music rang in the neural receptors first, but all the other stuff is there....
My background is London middle class back to Victorian times. That disqualifies me from singing most trad songs; I could hardly launch into "I Am A Rambling Irishman" / "I Am A Bold Miner" / "The Patriot Game" - etc., with any credibility, to myself even, and it would be worse yet for me to hijack a song which expresses the real hurt of someone else's industrial accident or war, without having any share in it myself. I did envy (seemingly) confident people who were Irish, Scottish, Geordie, and/or working class, who had these often marvellous songs as their birthright, but it wasn't mine. And I'm no singer anyway. So I listen.
When I started out in the 70s, the Troubles made anything to do with Ireland edgy. Someone in an Irish session might sing a really hate-filled song about the English; English guys might bunch up and barrack the Irish. Nothing did happen when I was in such a set-up, but there was always the feeling practically anything might. Left-wingers in swarms came to show solidarity with the Irish and were a bloody nuisance when quiet was needed for a song. I heard of unfathomable cruelties committed by members of both the Catholic and Protestant communities. I wanted no involvement at all with any of the politics, and stopped putting coins into the collections that circulated.
With tunes, it was just so different - an escape from the murk of class, and national divides, and war, into clear blue sky. No baggage - and as far as I can see, very few dance tunes have political connotations (I may still be wrong). I associated Irish and other trad tunes, along with other pieces of music, with the scenery of a favourite place - the North Pennines in and around the west of Co. Durham (UK). And I see the tunes as mine if I can play them adequately. If I can't, it shows, and I drop it or crank away at practising it; if I can, again it shows. Simple as that.
So for me personally, the tunes are non-political.
More twaddle. I don't know how many generations it takes for a particular behaviour to be "hard wired" into your dna, but I'd like to bet it's at least thousands of times more than three. To think otherwise is racist.
I have the ancestors and the irish blood and oppression and famine running through my viens, I can feel the spirits within me because my greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandaddy blah de blah blah blah blah......
Tunes are nice I like them, sessions are great craic, I like them, festivals are great fun, I like them.
Music I play because i like it - not because of politics.
A Nice Kalm Day asked what was meant by the word "politics." I think when Ptarmigan referred to "politics" he implied Irish nationalist politics and the history of the country's fight for independence from England and its efforts to create/maintain a national identity.
And to answer his question, no, not really. When I'm playing I usually think, "F*ck, I'm playing too open," or "oh, don't f*ck up the rhythm- d*mn, didn't need that beat anyway." In more sentimental moments, I think of whoever taught me the tune or whoever I used to play that tune frequently with, especially if they are someone far away or out of contact for a variety of weird reasons I seem to be perpetually enmeshed in. At least there are the tunes transcending distance, bullsh*t, and yes, politics. Somewhere out there, someone is playing "The Woman of the House."
On a more general level, I got into the music for the way it sounded, not the politics.
the original post offered opinions and thoughts, and asked folks to offer theirs. there was not a request for folks to bray like donkeys at those responding to the original post. you have a nice day now!!
I have the irish blood as well. And some scottish. Probably some english, too. Politics puts me off the music altogether. I quit playing out in sessions for a while because of stupid politics. Some of it was personal stuff between people at the session. But a big part of it was "the troubles". Many times, our session turned into a soapbox for people who had relatives in No. Ireland. They demanded certain republican songs, forbade some tunes, and generally just got in the way. Who needed that? Not me.
So its not about my ancestry or how green and lovely Ireland is. I enjoy playing Irish tunes and listening to others play, I like good singing and I like to dance the sets.
House sessions were much more fun because we could just play the tunes, hear a few songs, dance a bit, and drink some beer. Just fun, no politics.
I was at a very nice session once where this Comhaltas guy stood up afterward and urged everyone to sign their petition to lobby the US Congress for increased Irish immigration quotas. Kind of killed the warm fuzzy mood I was in.
I was at another session once where I ended up having a conversation with the bartender about how they (people where he was from) should have bombed more English pubs when they had the chance. He was serious. I couldn't change the subject fast enough!
Music and politics are a bad combination in my opinion. That's not what Dan meant by his original comments, though. He was talking about history and culture as they relate to music, and that I totally understand. The idea that I am learning to play the exact same music my great-grandfather listened to is very cool! It adds to my enjoyment of the music.
I too think people that play this music play it because they like it. That's definitely the case for me, and I have no Irish heritage to feel any pride about, but I don't think ITM exists in a vacuum either. The British tried to destroy Irish music and culture... and failed. I would imagine Irish people would feel pride over the fact that the Brits failed in destroying their music, and I would be willing to bet that it occurs to them from time to time as they're playing it and enjoying it.
I like that statement about past generations gathering around us. I'll even take it a step further and speculate that ITM touches our souls to the extent that it does because it stems from a people who originally had a deep reverence and resonance with Mother Earth and all of its' Nature.
I actually think that the music came from heaven itself. Whenever we play it, we envelop ourselves in heaven's goodness and we can all feel as one. It's as though we are joining hands but not in the literal sense. We are at peace with the music and ourselves, and at once we may fleetingly become of the earth and of the soaring heights of the heavens above. Only through reliving the pain suffering of our ancestors as they struggled against their oppressors and found their feet in new foreign lands may we discover our true selves and truly understand the souls of our fellow musicians. Yeah whatever.. Please. Shut. The. Feck. Up.
Stop beating around the bush Dow and say what you really think.
Getting back to the issue that that Great Beast of the North Ptarm raised, I spend most of my waking hours (those that aren't devoted to wiping small children's bottoms, feeding reluctant little mouths etc etc) being a professional red-ragging, militant, loud-mouthed, self-righteous, government-funded (though begrudgingly from their point of view I might say!) social justice pain-in-the-bum. One of the things I love most about this music is that people do it together in a pub or in someone's kitchen and that it builds community and relationship (unless you're Dow or Michael G in which case it helps you build virtual Molotov cocktails). That's just about as political as it gets in a world that feeds off mindless consumption and television. And the internet!
Well, well, well. It seems like some folks here think about all sorts of stuff when they are playing, or perhaps they just like to think that they like to think about all kinds of stuff when they play, although what I probably think they most probably mean is that they like us, or everyone else around them, to think that they actually are thinking about all kinds of stuff when they play. ..... I think!
I suspect though that most of us are just worried more about getting the wee twiddly bits right & about making sure we repeat each part only once & make a smooth change from one tune to the next.
However, if it makes you happy to think that your thinking about all kinds of other stuff when you are playing, then who are we to stop you, ........ you have our permission to carry on with your delusions of grandeur!
This notion that maybe a 17 year old ITM player anywhere is actually thinking seriously about Irish Politics & the auld enemy when they play their music, makes to me about as much sense as those little children who are trooped out at CCE sessions &/or competitions to sing songs about their lost love, Ireland's dreadful past or the famine!
I suspect that anyone who got into this music because of politics is unlikely to stay the course.
At the end of the day they are all just bonny wee tunes.
Dick, you didn't ask what a 17 year old ITM player thinks, you asked, "On the other hand, how many are actually caught up in the politics of Ireland when they play & perhaps feel that ITM has perhaps had a significant role to play in Ireland's history?
That's the question I attempted to address. I happen to be very interested in politics, and it affects my musical preferences. I don't think my interest in politics and how politics and history may or may not be related to music means I'm "unlikely to stay the course." Why did you start this thread? Did you intend to have any response, or should I have gathered from the last paragraph in your premise that we were somehow wrong if we replied at all?
I think the really important thing is to absolutely mock anybody that enjoys the music for any reason other than one you find comfortable. There's absolutely a right reason to enjoy the music and several wrong reasons. Anybody disagreeing with you is full of twaddle and an edgit, and deserves your sneers.
I don't think I've ever heard her. But I do find it funny that a man so infatuated with his opinions as to pronounce them facts would find self-pride so ugly.
I commend Mark Harmer's earlier comment. You can't retrospectively unravel the music from its history, nor, as an outsider should you try. On the other hand, I also cringe when I hear mawkish songs that are past their sell-by date. I would suggest the music may be in a transition phase in terms of its political resonance. Patience and tolerance are needed, not bulls in china shops.
Quote from Phantom and echoed by a couple of others "The British tried to destroy Irish music and culture... and failed. I would imagine Irish people would feel pride over the fact that the Brits failed in destroying their music, and I would be willing to bet that it occurs to them from time to time as they're playing it and enjoying it"
Please elaborate.!!!! When and how did the British try to destroy Irish music and culture? I am Irish, I would regard myself as being reasonably well informed on matters of Irish history but have never heard any evidence of this. The English and Scottish planters certainly seized Irish lands, at one time they tried to suppress Roman Catholicism through the penal laws etc. but how did they go about trying to destroy Irish music - by shooting anyone with a fiddle or pipes? Get lost.
Two forces that did suppress ITM were (1) the 'victorian ' Catholic church who closed down house dances, crossroads dancing (2) a general cultural move away from speaking gaeilge and playing ITM as these were considered 'backward'.
But I certainly don't think the Brits were going round squinting in cottage windows to see who was having a hooley. Sure, the hornpipe form is generally regarded as having come from military (British) music.
Even in Norn Ire, the music of both nationalist and unionist settlers intermingled - go read Gary Hastings book 'With Fife & Drum'
To follow on just from the last comment - so who tried to destroy english culture then ?
I would suggest, very much like the two forces identified by our wounded hussar ( love that tune, too ) , it was well hinted at in Flora Thompson's Lark Rise, about an Oxfordshire hamlet in the late Victorian period, how the young girls would go off to work in the big houses of the local gentry, whilst their sweathearts would remain working in the rural community. When they married the girls would bring back with them a distorted ideal of good behaviour and culture, and try to deny their spouses the enjoyment of traditional pursuits like morris dancing, mumming plays, and singing in the pub, all as being lower class. The result of this is to denigrate what are our own cultural roots - I recall there was this great movement around the time of Cecil Sharpe, to try to get away from the influence of German music on our own culture, and this was one of the driving forces behind his awakening interest in folk music. One of the results of this denigration was that remark by Kim Howells, the government minister, that his ideal of Hell would be three traditional singers in a Somerset pub.
Something similar, in relation to language, happened, as my father observed, in the Channel Islands, where, about 1910 or so, it became uncouth to be heard speaking in the local patois, the norman-french, because it showed you were, frankly, a peasant. Nowadays you can go to evening classes in it. How things change.
I am inclined to agree with Wounded Hussar´s comments, and would be interested to see firm evidence that the English rulers (including the Anglo-Irish aristocracy) set out to supress the playing of traditional music.
At certain periods of Irish history it is well known that the country´s rulers attempted to suppress the cultural and religious manifestations of the "natives", including penalties for the speaking of Irish in public places (although it probably continued to be spoken in the homes), and I believe the pipes (uilleann or war pipes ?) were banned as part of this cultural repression, but did that amount to a systematic attack on the playing of traditional music ?
Would it not have been more likely that playing, listening and dancing to traditional music was tolerated because it " kept them off the streets" when they would otherwise have become involved in politics ? Something similar to the role of football in Spain under the Franco régime ?
These are not rhetorical questions. I am not a historian and would be interested to hear opinions about this.
Yes, the British establishment, in so, so many ways throughout history robbed this country blind of more than just its youth and resources; but when it comes to culture look no further than our own genius for born again morality as sanctioned by those pious schizophrenics who think that Jesus Christ would have any interest in the affairs of shady, rich statelets in Rome.
As far as I know it was the Irish war pipes that were banned, in the c16 - 17 - they were used to muster and inspire Irish rebel armies as long as these existed. They were last used by exiled Irish troops at the Battle of Fontenoy, some time round 1740.
Ptarm mate. you sure like to ramble but a couple of excellent points.....When I play tunes I always envisage the guys who played them before me and feel a certain sense of pride in some sets, maybe that's a Norn Iron thingy ? If it wasn't for nationalism the music would be dead ! Vive la revolution
" I do not think that there is any real ground for regarding Irish dancing as a sovereign spiritual and nationalistic prophylactic. If there is, heaven help the defenceless nations of other lands." Genius
Oh, I did note that Ptarmy's first post quoted Wikipedia. An unimpeachable source of information (oh, by the way, did you know that there has been a population boom of African elephants?).
Harry, btw , sorry for going off topic guys, nice interview and playing on The Late Session. Answer me this....you know a Derry flute player Paddy O' Neill ?
I have read histories describing how musicians and local ethnic styles of music came under fire in both Scotland and Ireland, part of misguided efforts to meld "Great Britain" together more closely. In Scotland, I read that this effort was aided and abetted by the Presbeterian Church, which at one time seemed to view dance music as a tool of the devil.
Music is part of cultures and subcultures, and part of the way they express themselves. Every human endeavor ends up being captured in song at some point. I myself prefer the political end of it to remain out of it, as it works to divide us as much as unite us.
An 'anti politics' or exclusion stance seems pretty extreme.
This country could do with much more by way of cohesive politics and thinking in general, without getting all naive and fudging the issues and all that. 'PC' is not a brand name and I think it would be preferable if 'PC' actually translated into sound, fair policy and not knee-jerk tokenism as is generally the case. Then again, ignorance IS a relative sort of bliss I suppose.
Yes, I've been following the story. I agree with the author though, he is being idealistic if he thinks that evidence of a common gene pool will unite the UK: people construct their identity using their personal and cultural experiences and, unfortunately, these haven't been so cohesive historically, genes don't tell us who we think we are.
Cultural idealism, of course, is just as fraught with fodder for the bullsh*tometer. The reality of cultural connections between these islands is longstanding and varied and not at all what most people of a strident cultural nationalist or unionist confusion are willing to swallow.
Just the other day there was some crap artist on Pat Kenny's daytime RTE radio show explaining that the union pipes were some sort of garbled Scots import to the northern counties, brought in by protestant ministers to play the role of a type of church pipe organ... complete horse balls... Kenny's response? "Why, that's fascinating". The interviewee was involved in one of these dour Ulster Scots pantomimes that is trying to get off the ground I think.
Recent samples (blood, DNA, whatever) have proved the English are all Celtic. Other recent samples have proved we're all Germanic.
Obviously George Best twisted all our blood.
(For young ones, it was said of footballer George Best that when he evaded tackles, he left the tackler "with twisted blood"...)
Michael Gill was a famous Galway hurler in the 1920s, also played for Dublin, so there is a chance that his namesake may have some Irish ancestry. If he hasn't, he is speaking mostly twaddle, because he could not possibly know anything about the influence ALL things presumed to be Irish has on the Irish diaspora.
We are not saying you need to be Irish to play/appreciate the music. We are saying that the diaspora cling to the music and dancing as a declaration of Irishness, thereby nationalism.
That is a fact.
My main interest in life is politics, as all things are political. For "Irish" music many tunes would have political overtones, yet nothing to do with nationalism, in that they celebrated customs and mores, many of which were political. Many of the songs are political, from "chucky" stuff to left wing broad sheets.
"(1) the 'victorian ' Catholic church who closed down house dances, crossroads dancing.." - Aye Hussar, & they were also dead against "knee tremblers" - afraid that they would lead to dancing!
If it is the case that the English were hell bent on the subjugation of the cultures in Scotland, Ireland & Wales, isn't it just a little ironic that today, it seems to me at least that the traditional musical culture of these other three nations is far stronger, richer & more diverse than that of England.
As for that theory about the first smallpipes coming over to the northern counties from Scotland or Northumberland. I don't really think any Uilleann Piper today gives a toss, quite frankly where the first smallpipes actually came from originally. Some say they arrived first with the Romans - but does it really matter in the scheme of things today? The important factor surely is that, wherever they came from, the pipemakers here took the simple instrument they were presented with & proceeded to develop, what I believe are now, the most sophisticated set of bagpipes in the World.
However, getting back to the topic - Button, you asked why I started this thread. Well, I thought I made that clear in my thread.
I posted Dan's comments & it was these that I found so interesting, so I just wished to explore the notion that some folks have all sorts of strange thoughts going through their heads when they play - simple as that really.
However, I had noticed how, in the past, the word politics in a thread topic appeared to be a big turn off, so I wasn't convinced I would see many replies, but I'm surprised & delighted to see so many interesting responses.
I'm not entirely surprised though that things have got a little heated, what with the word politics in the title. There is something about that little word which always manages to raise the temperature, don't you think?
Here's a thought - are some of you implying that you really need to have an understanding of Irish History to be able to play Irish Music, well?
Oh, & llig:
"At the end of the day they are all just bonny wee tunes." - just my opinion, not a fact.
I do understand that some are more bonny than others.
Scientists are now finding that our DNA points to the Kalahari in Africa as being the original humans on the planet.
War is an unfortunate side-effect to being human.
However, music has always helped us to put up with each other.
The said speaker wasn't refering to the samll pipes, he was refering to the uilleann pipes, which is why Terry Moylan, archivist with NPU and authority on the history of the uilleann pipes, responded with an email to the show to attempt to correct any confusion that may have been caused by the speaker's erroneous and distorting view.
I assume that the uilleann and the various British bellows pipes were all developed out of the c17-18 French musette.
The idea of bagpipes in Presbyterian churches seems pretty preposterous. But I was amused to read that when Cromwell banned organ music from churches in England, the organs were promptly snapped up and installed in pubs, where music-making was not affected by the regime.
Yes, Nicholas, but the French musette was a development on a little known Dutch bagpipe called the Williametta Mk III. This fascinating instrument is historically connected to the court of William of Orange.
The instrument was adopted by the Catholics who fought for William on the Boyne who hadn't the intelligence to invent or adapt their own bagpipe. The sound of the instrument was so uninteresting though that it is reported that the vast majority of its players soon converted to puritan methodism and moved North away from the pleasent climate in the South. Scholars agree ( two scholars in a loyalist housing estate in Ballymena that is) that the modern Ullan pipes (or uilleann pipes as they are now mistakenly called) derived from the Williametta MkIII.
....And if you believe that then King Billy's horse WAS white!
Dick askes: "Are some of you implying that you really need to have an understanding of Irish History to be able to play Irish Music, well?"
I'm certainly not, but my interest in global politics leads me to find out what I can. I'm not an expert in Irish politics, but that's not my main focus right now. I probably know more about recent Irish politics than I do about the history, but that's because I spend a lot of time at a very political Irish pub here in SF. This doesn't contribute to my ability to play Irish music, but it does embellish it a bit.
I don't have time to research this right now, but I remember reading about how the British rounded up all the harps they could find and burned them. Is there any truth to this? I remember it in the context of how O'Carolan's music survide despite the attempt to destroy the culture and music that goes along with it.
There is a famous illustration of a piper being hung for playing 'seditious tunes', but there was'nt really a specific attack or campaign against the culture, just more general measures that contributed to the detriment and decline of cultural practices.
In the Carolin and before him we're also talking about the birth of modern nationalism, so these symbols of 'Irishness' were seen rather differently than they are seen today.
In the O'Carolin and pre-O'Carolin times we're talking about pre-modern nationalism, so these symbols of 'Irishness' were seen rather differently than they are generally today.
What provocation do you think it would take for the Poms to pour out of their strongholds and burn all the banjoes? Or hang scores of bodhran players? Or smash all those funny little shaker eggs?
Excerpt from The Statutes of kilkenny 1367........................."XV. Also, whereas the Irish agents who come amongst the English, spy out the secrets, plans, and policies of the English, whereby great evils have often resulted; it is agreed and forbidden, that any Irish agents, that is to say, pipers, story-tellers, bablers, rimers, mowers, nor any other Irish agent shall come amongst the English, and that no English shall receive or make gift to such; and that shall do so, and be attainted, shall be taken, and imprisoned, as well the Irish agents as the English who receive or give them any thing, and after that they shall make fine at the king's will; and the instruments of their agency shall forfeit to our lord the king. "
Ok then, which of ye is going to admit to being a babler?
"The idea of bagpipes in Presbyterian churches seems pretty preposterous." nicholas, I wouldn't actually rule that idea out, completely.
For example, the old Hammered Dulcimer players of the Glens of Antrim speak of this instrument having been used in some small churches, where the cost of buying & installing an organ was beyond their means.
This was obviously in the days before cheap electric Yamaha Keyboards. Now obviously a handyman could knock up a Hammered Dulcimer quite quickly & cheaply whereas even a peddle-powered Harmonium would have been rather expensive back then, so the possibility that the odd church may have in fact made use of a set of Smallpipes, I don't think is totally out of the questiion.
However, I do believe you are correct in assuming that the various British bellows pipes were all developed out of the c17-18 French musette.
But of course, to most of us, it matters not, whether the pre-uilleann pipe was a French, English or Scottish bellows pipe - unless of course you are of an Irish Nationalist persuasion, in which case you may well prefer to think of the inspiration coming from a French instrument, rather than from one from either of the other two areas.
Button, you say your knowledge of Irish politics embellishes your ability to play the music. I wonder, would you perhaps like to explain how?
I can see how a personal knowledge of the Geography of this island might enhance ones enjoyment, for example, when playing tunes which have names of places in their title, you might think back fleetingly of times spent in those areas. But I don't see the connection with politics myself .... but I'm probably just being a bit thick!
"Ok then, which of ye is going to admit to being a babler?" ....Forsooth .... who gave the game away? OK it's a fair cop! I confess! ..... guilty as charged Backer .... do your worst!
Queen Elizebeth I famously decreed that all Irish pipers were to be arrested and promptly hanged, but I seem to remember that there is little evidence to suggest that this was widely acted on.
I assume she was talking about the big pipes there Harry, in which case, I wonder was it around this time that the Irish famously gave the big pipes to the Scots? .... & as we all know, we haven't seen the joke yet!
The 'Irish' uilleann pipes are identified with Ireland in the same way that the 'Scots' bagpipe is associated with Scotland (but to a lesser degree in the popular imagination). They are identified thus because of their context, not because of their historical ancestry as an instruments. they have been developed creatively in countries that obviously have a raport with the instrument, this is not exclusive by any means, as we know the Piob Mor has a long and illustrous history in Ireland as well.
I agree that it doesn't matter where they come from, but it does seem to matter to some. And that is when we should really start to listen, you know, the old bullsh*tometer, because there's a little process going on in this country (its been going on in many various quarterts for years) that I like to call 'cultural engineering' and its a sort of pseudo 'folk history' that likes to hide its ugly sectarian little head in the grey area that subjective folk memory creates. Harmless enough when its harmless, but every once in a while you see a nasty little sharp bit, like our friend and his crock of blarney on the 'presbyterian' pipes or whatever! A good story for some, but NOT good history.
BTW, it would be a particularly thick Irish nationalist who would begrudge a Scots Gaelic ancestry to the bagpipe: it was a highland instrument before it was adopted as a British emblem played by highland clans that were simply known to their English foe at one stage as 'The Irish'.
Well I am a little late in this conversation. Reading the New York Times article I feel that, whilst the auther is clearly, as you would expect from his paper, relatively knowledgeable he has ultimately missed the point in modern nationalism, at least here in Scotland. There is not a claim from any of the nationalist parties here that Scotland should be Independent because the Scots are genetically different from the English. The idea would be proeposterous. There is no way that two countries that share a border could remain genetically particularly diverse. Ultimately the calls for Independence lie on cultural and economic grounds. It can be recognised that Scotland has different political and social aspirations and beliefs from those of England. If it was a mere matter of genetics then the Union would never be under the threat that the author claims.
Anyway in terms of the music, which is what we were initially talking about, I do have a strong interest in politics and history, being a history graduate, but I am not interested in the tunes from any political standpoint. There is a clear cultural identification that can lie with the traditional music of these countries but a political one would be to stretch the point somewhat. In terms of songs I like then many of these are influenced by political or cultural views of mine whether they be socialist or nationalist or something else entirely (as well as simply whether I like the song's tune), but that is because song lyrics can contain a clear social message. I like the tunes purely from the melodic and rhythmic properties. I do not claim I can play them better because I am Scottish or because my surname is Irish (as were some of my grandparents). I do not claim to have the music coursing through my blood due to unavoidable genetics - ideas like that fall to the ground when you consider some of the pap that other people who have as much, if not more, "Celtic blood" than me listen to. No I like the music because it is good - full stop.
Just to prove that I haven't gone mad, this is typical of the sort of thing I come across that gives me the impression that the British were brutally repressive regarding Ireland’s music.
"The Irish did not like being ruled by the English. They did not feel that Ireland was their own country. The English sometimes took Irish land and gave it to English settlers. They also had strict laws for the Irish. They tried to destroy Irish culture. One way they did this was by forbidding the Irish to speak Gaelic, their native language. They also made it illegal for Irish poets and musicians to practice their arts. The harp—Ireland's oldest and most loved instrument—was banned."
"In the 16th century, harpists would often join revolutionaries for much the same purpose. The British crown, in an effort to stifle the rebellion, banned Celtic harps and instructing their men to kill any harpist and destroy their instruments. They were infamously successful. By the beginning of the 19th century, thanks to British measures and the bankruptcy of the Irish aristocracy, traditional Celtic harp music had all but died out."
PB - your first link is from a Newfoundland site, isn't it? No idea the provenance other than that, so may be fine ...
The second is from one Deborah Felker, author of other fine articles such as "7 Lucky Charms That Make Perfect Irish Wedding Gifts" and "How to Pick an Irish Baby Name", wherein she shows her thorough understanding of Irish culture in the following classic quote:
"My personal search for the perfect Irish baby name began many years ago, when my husband and I found out we were going to be blessed with another daughter. We knew we wanted an Irish name for our baby girl so we would always remember the spiritual connection that we shared.
After all, it was from this bond that she was conceived. In those early days and nights of endless romance and passion, practically all we ever listened to was Enya and Riverdance!"
Ben, I realize the second one was from a kid's webpage, but my point is that I'll see it and I'll also see corroboration elsewhere. I don't have any evidence beyond just running into the story randomly here and there.
Still, it would be good if someone could point to some actual, authenticated history for this sort of stuff. Otherwise, potentially, it just adds to the 'rumours' and 'stories' that obscure and mythologise the hurt that *was* done over centuries, and adds little to our understanding of the history and development of the music on both sides of the Irish Sea.
That's why I'm asking, Ben. I would like to know once and for all because I keep running into it, and I see a correlation with what my friends from Chile and South America say about their country's history regarding their culture and music. For me part of the beauty of the music is the fact that it persevered despite the efforts to suppress it. I've always liked to think that it somehow attributed to its strength. For me the awareness of things of that sort is an embellishment to my enjoyment of it. And that's no bull.
That whole history of the instrument thingy with bagpipes - I wonder, does an uilleann piper really get all patriotic when he's playing a bunch of reels. Does he get all gooey eyed & think of his fatherland & English oppression.
.... & I just wonder how many Highland Pipers think likewise about Scotland, when they rip through a selection?
OK I know it is interesting to know where instruments were developed but at this stage, are we ever going to know exactly the where, who & how of the development of these instruments? ... & if we did, will the political history of each really matter a jot to any musician who is playing them? I'm not convinced.
When I play the Fiddle, I personally don't get all patriotic for Italy, the country which perfected the Violin. When I play my Anglo Concertina I don't get all gooey eyed about possible German anscestry I may have, just because a German invented that instrument.
... & where does that leave Whistle players? .... who invented the Whistle? etc etc etc
I play music on each of the instruments I play because I love the sound those instruments make & I love the way Irish tunes are put together. I really enjoy hearing the way I play my tunes blending with other musicians as they play their instruments. I don't think of the recent or ancient politics of this or any other country when I play music, I think of the music.
The bottom line is .... if I'm not concentrating on the tune I am likely to mess up, so I clear my mind for that reason & for maximum enjoyment of the joy of playing.
Do some people here really try to spoil that joyfull process by cluttering their minds up with a load of old politics or history?
Brother Parmigiano, I think it may be time to extend your musings into another thread. To at least make it superficially relevant to this site, maybe call it something like "what do you think of when you play Toss the Feathers?"
This thread is running out of steam, thank christ, but there is still a point of cause and effect I'd like to bring up:
Button says, "part of the beauty of the music is the fact that it persevered despite the efforts to suppress it. I've always liked to think that it somehow attributed to its strength."
This is not logical. It could equally be said that it was the music's beauty that gave it the strength to survive the oppression. And keep in mind that it's not just the oppression from the english, but the Irish also - as so brilliantly described by Flann O'Brian in Harry B's link above. I'll link it again, lest anyone didn't read it all:
Hi Phantom, I don't know about you but when someone tells me something in a pub or I read something in a newspaper or on the web, first thing I try and figure out is where said person is coming from, what their slant is. If I hear the same info. over and again and see it backed up in various sources over time then I assimilate it and I'm surer of it's validity. The world is full of people spinning this and that to their own ends - who can ever be certain where the truth lies
I don't know about 'For King and Country', but I do occasionally find myself shouting YES-SSSS! on managing to get through a whole tune without fouling up.
Gaining historical accuracy is subtly different from historical validity. And this difference is particularly pertinent in the case of music and politics. A lot of people here have stated that Irish music's political history is not only of an interest to them, but a contributory factor in their enjoyment of it. This creates a self sustaining validity.
Societies have always promoted certain historical views over others and the politically active often (mis)use music as a promotional tool. As I said earlier, the notion to imbue music with political resonance is often a deliberate hijack of innocence. As this quote from visitireland.com (linked above by dow) illustrates, "they have taken old airs and wrote new lyrics to create a new song".
I am interested in the abstract nature of the instrumental music of Ireland, and how, despite centuries of attempts to attach all kinds of baggage (not just political), it remains one of the most pure examples of abstract art human beings have ever created.
I've played with all shades of 'orange' and 'green' and I honestly don't think that anyone that I've experienced has had a disorder approaching that which you seem keen to portray. I think the worst offenders here are the little nationalists in your head; which is every bit the 'crime' of inventing our own subjective realities when we play a few trifling tunes.
Want to see very clear manifestations of identity with music performance in Ireland? Look towards the pope kickers and their symbolism, regalia and general tone of practices.
The more I learn about Irish geography, the more I realize how much the Irish people love their music. After all, nearly every town in the nation is named after the title of a tune!!!!!
Some of those links were fairly flaky (not including the one about dance halls, that made very interesting reading). The one promoting Fantasy Ireland holidays gets me thinking:
Is there a medically recognised "Ireland Syndrome?"
I'll explain. There is a "Jerusalem Syndrome" which has over the years affected a number of visitors to that city, and is medically recognised. The affected person is usually young, and comes from a sheltered religious background. Confronted by the real place, he / she breaks down: often acquires Biblical clothing, and believes he / she is a scriptural character (Christians, Muslims and Jews are all I think affected),
,.
- Anyway, the person, often found weeping over the state of things, is taken off to the mental hospital, emerging after a few days in good shape to rejoin his / her party.
So, I wonder if there is an equivalent in people who have idealised a notion of Ireland / Dublin / Connemara / Donegal / Kerry / wherever, and couldn't hack what they found?
Actually, seriously, my Ma went on a family visit to Knock once, dressed in a navy blue skirt and a navy blue cardigan. She said it was just a coincidence and was a bit embarrassed, but I've always wondered.
When I came to traditional music first it was most definitely an expression of my identity as an Irish person and in juxtaposition to the presence of British troops on the streets of Belfast.
I'm not saying that the tunes in and of themselves carry a specific political connotation but they are certainly an important part of the experience of things irish.
Much allusion has been made to the Orange Green dichotomy but I don't see that as particularly relevant as I have never seen the irish identity as being inextricably linked to religion in any way. The 'war' was about national self determination and not about religion.
There are, of course, thousandas of songs that are expressly political in their nature and these are important as a social commentary or history. Skibbereen, The Fields of Athenry, etc etc may be fadgy songs but they are none the less valid for that.
These songs help us to remember our history - perhaps they help us to understand how others who are oppressed feel. Maybe that's the reason why the irish are so generous when it comes to famine relief etc because the folk memeory is still stirred by the songs of the past.
I believe in the power of music to sooth the savage beast and am delioghted to dee that the music of our country is able to bring togther such diverse people as are found on this site and at the sessions all around the world. But in it's own geopolitical context the music did and does still carry a political overtone albeit political with a small 'p' these days.
"it remains one of the most pure examples of abstract art human beings have ever created." Please prove this. You've stated PB wasn't logical without telling him why, and you're making blanket statements to be taken as fact. Please be logical and factual. Prove that the music is abstract from the setting.
I don't think you'll have any luck proving this. It remains a matter of speculation at best, opinion at worst. Politics often shape music, both subtly and not so subtly. The fact that much of the influence was long ago and does not matter as much now does not mean that it was or is absent.
I don't like reviving this thread, but your assumption that the music came out of a vacuum and now exists in space, alone and divorced from the world seems a bit odd.
So if people like the music for reasons other than what you find acceptable, maybe that's not a bad thing.
Hmmm...while I'm at it, you've stated in the past that you don't care for tradition. Yet your whole musical hierarchy, your "right" and "wrong" playing depends on it. Without a basis of tradition, everything boils down to taste and aesthetics. You can't claim any kind of superiority: violin does the ornaments better? Which ornaments? Why not nifty new ones performed on a synthesizer?
If you throw out tradition, it's all a matter of taste. You certain you want to go there?
Music could be said to be a more abstract expression than language, but then certain music could be said to be more universally communicative than some of the more demanding modern poetry. The values are determined by the relative appreciations of both modes of expression, and the receiving person's cultural and personal experiences.
Certainly, to a people who live/lived in communities that had music traditions as an integral part of their daily existence, the music was not 'abstract' as I think most people understand it, albeit *relatively* abstract compared to, say, everyday speech. Although 'abstact' could easily be implied on the situation by those who perform truly abstract practices such as sociology or ethnomusicology study etc... Colonial history also has/had a wonderfully predictable way of pigeon holing integral facets of native culture in a way that rendered them as abstract. When you think your values are superior it is easy to misrepresent other people's experience both intentionally and otherwise.
Humans creating abstract art is hardly a vacuum. It was, is and will be created. Most abstract art is deeply personal, created individually. Not from a vacuum, but from the isolation of the individual. Diddley music is different, it is the collective creation of many generations.
How can I prove it's abstract? Difficult this but how about an experiment. Get a number of tunes, tunes say with descriptive titles like "the gander in the pratiie hole", "the kid on the mountain", "Heathery Breeze", "Drag her round the road" etc. Find someone who is unfamiliar with the music and try to get them to guess the title.
And I thought I was quite clear with the logic:
Premise -
The music has persevered despite the efforts to suppress it.
PB's Conclusion -
"I've always liked to think that it somehow attributed to its strength" (I think he meant "contributed" but he can clear that up)
But, it could equally be said that it was the music's strength in the first place that allowed it to persevere.
And I've agreed above that politics often interferes with music, but shape it? no.
I've been thinking about Beethoven's Eroica. He dedicated it to Napoleon then famously scratched out the dedication. But did he change even one note of the music?
What music title could be guessed in any form of music? How does that prove it is abstract? The form of the music is what proves it is abstract or not. I don't find that the form dictates abstraction, rather it seems to follow more specific rules and modes. Further, this is community music, obviously shaped by community. Politics influences community.
Abstraction in any art form comes about as a deliberate effort. The abstract art movement was a deliberate shift. Abstraction in jazz music the same. Otherwise it is a part and parcel of the culture. You may not like the baggage and associations that accompany it, but that hardly means that it doesn't exist.
You might successfully argue that the political and social nature that gave rise to the music is no longer as relevant, but not that it doesn't or didn't exist.
I use the word abstract in the strict artistic definition of the word. Where the created forms are nonrepresentational. Where the internal structures only refer to one another within the piece, or in this case, within the tradition.
The description of practices such as sociology or ethnomusicology being abstract is different. These "fields" take tangible real stuff and attempt to measure, quantify, pigeon hole and label them into abstracted categories.
And again, that is a good thing. Without the tradition, political and otherwise, there is no reason not to drag synthesizers to sessions. I can program my synth to do any ornament you like, from rolls to crans to a high-hat drum solo. It's out of respect as to where the music comes from that help bind certain aspects of taste.
But they are representational. You might abstract them yourself, but many of the tunes that we have origins for were composed for specific things and events. They may not have the same connotations for you, but that doesn't mean they are abstract. You simply abstract them from their original reference. Others may choose not to do so.
Michael, I don't see much difference between the two words in the context of how I meant it. Here are two definitions; can you tell me which is which without looking it up?
a) to be one of the factors that causes something
b) to regard somebody or something as having part
Anyway, I never implied that it's the only factor, or that the political historical relationship was the prominent feature for me. It's just something I enjoy thinking about. Not while I'm playing, but rather when I'm just thinking about the music as it relates to Ireland, it's history, and it's relationship to the world. But that's just me -- I'm very political. If you aren't then it's not likely you would reflect on the music the way I do. I'm sure you have your own interests that may or may not relate to the music, or perhaps you just want the music to exist in a vacuum. That's cool -- to each his own.
Yes, now we're getting somewhere. The form of the music is what proves it is abstract or not. I'm arguing that because the internal structures of diddley tunes only refer to themselves and the other tunes within the tradition, that they are abstract.
And yes, one of its great beauties is that it is community music. Communities of musicians who create abstract music. Deliberately
Mr. Gill states that the music is abstract-when I believe he means it may be abstracted: it may exist without the previous associations that have been attached to it. That may well be true, but many find the history and meaning of tunes to be more meaningful than playing the music "out of context." That is an individual decision.
Proving that it came about independently of those conditions would be a tall order, and likely an impossible one. Name any form of music that arose independently of the social and political conditions around it. There really isn't any such thing. The most basic student of cultural anthropology will grasp that.
Well, then prove that the tunes are only self-referencing. Some of the titles suggest otherwise. You might remove the title, or call it something else, but it still arose from that context.
The music is currently becoming more abstracted from it's origins, just as blues and jazz and classical music has done. That does not make it abstract. The best blues players will give a nod towards the original makers of the music.
And again, you ignore the dangers of abstraction. Wait until somebody shows up with a tuba at your session. "it's all abstract, mate. No real rules then."
You miss the definition. Nothing within the actual music itself refers to any of the associations that have been attached to it. Of course it didn't come about independently of anything. We are going round in circles. I say that there is nothing within the artform itself that betray any of it's origins other than musical ones. That's what I mean by abstract
How can music specifically reference anything without lyrics? Any music? It all becomes a matter of interpretation at some point. That hardly means it is abstract. It may be abstracted. And you choose to do so. Others may well find more meaning by looking at the origin of the tune and how it came about. There's nothing wrong with that.
Michael is right - from his point of view, which is one I have a certain amount of sympathy for but don't necessarily agree with. The original inspiration for a tune eg, "I Have No Money" may been poverty but that is expressed as an abstraction, ie a Dmajor tune in 4/4 time. Anything you want to attach to it, eg the motive for composing it, its composer and so on, are just that. Attachments. No politics. Totally different from "The Soldier's Song" a song with a political message.
Some music is deliberately onomatopeic, this is not abstract. A lot of music has words, you understand that. The stuff that is left, the majority is abstract. Now we finally really are getting somewhere. And quite right, if you require more meaning by looking at the origin and how it came about, there's nothing wrong with that.
Some people do require more meaning, or at least get more out of it. And you have yet to acknowledge the dangers of a purely abstract music. Divorce ITM, diddly or whatever you call it from the origins, and how do you justify it being played in the conservative manner we all know and love? It comes down to taste. I don't like that idea very much. Bongos and synthesizers will have every bit as much justification as pipes and flutes.
If you require more meaning that is a personal preference. Eg, I like to delve into the history of tunes etc, micheal doesn't. Fair enough. But he is right in saying music is abstract, cos that's what it is. A song comprises of words...and *music*....that's the abstract tune bit. End of argument.
Harry, now that recent post of yours, which was directed at me, would be funny Ha Ha if it wasn't just bizarre & insulting!
If you go back to the thread, you'll see it was actually Dan who put forward this notion that folks think about political stuff when they play & Button who said his knowledge of Irish Politics enhances his enjoyment of his playing.
I never said there was anything wrong with their particular approach to their music, I fully support their right to enjoy it in whichever way they like. This thread was a simple exploration of how different folks enjoyed their music & an investigation into the many sorts of baggage which people may attach to the music, in their pursuit of their enjoyment of it. I have constantly said how I DON'T think of politics when I play ..... must I say it again?
I have actually spent a whole thread wondering how these thoughts actually enhance or improve the playing experience, while pointing out, over & over again that I play simply because I like the sound of the little tunes & then you come out with your last post? Very strange indeed - I really wonder where you get these ideas from?
For example:
"I play music on each of the instruments I play because I love the sound those instruments make & I love the way Irish tunes are put together. I really enjoy hearing the way I play my tunes blending with other musicians as they play their instruments. I don't think of the recent or ancient politics of this or any other country when I play music, I think of the music."
Could I say it any more clearly than that.... & yet? ... still you come out with crap like - I've got "little nationalists" in my head!
Where do these ideas of yours spring from Harry?
Have you actually read any of my posts above?
From your last response it doesn't look like it!
I have noticed that when you join a thread I happen to be on, you very often introduce expressions like "Orange & Green", make snide, insulting remarks which are clearly intended to aggravate & annoy - like: "I think the worst offenders here are the little nationalists in your head ..." & produce utter & downright sectarian sh*t like - "Look towards the pope kickers and their symbolism, regalia and general tone of practices.", the latter being introduced by you presumably to infer that I am one, a part of, or a member of that particular group of ar$eholes up here!
Apart from being grossly insulting & completely & utterly way off the mark, it is, or should be, beneath you Harry, to lower yourself to such behaviour. Have you not seen enough of that particular brand of mud-slinging, while growing up in the North, without resorting to it yourself on this friendly little music forum?
This constant slander from you is clearly designed to insinuate that I am some sort of anti-Nationalist & from where I’m sitting, is totally uncalled for, apart from being way off the mark, but then of course my own politics are really none of your business. I don't imagine for one minute that anyone else reading my posts will have come up with this preposterous conclusion to my thread or posts.
No doubt you think you are being very amusing by posting such insults Harry, but may I draw your attention to a thread Button posted here a while back, on how he felt that some people should be making more of an effort to clean up their act, while on this forum & try to refrain from blatantly insulting others. Perhaps you should go back & read that thread Harry.
I know some folks get very emotional when politics crop up here, but let's try & conduct ourselves in a civilised, adult manner, shall we?
Getting back to the topic itself:
I must admit I am attracted to llig's idea that Irish Music could possibly be - "one of the most pure examples of abstract art, human beings have ever created."
That's not to say that there is anything wrong with anyone attaching any baggage of any sort to the music, we are all entitled to enjoy it in our own way, as long as our way doesn't interfere with how others around us enjoy their music. I attach geographical memories sometimes, or past session memories, or past tutor memories etc etc
However, are there not dangers in the notion that you can't fully enjoy the playing of Irish music unless you are fully conversant with the history, politics & geography of Ireland.
Have we not had absolutely preposterous postings here in the past, on how only those born in Ireland or those of Irish blood could possibly be any good at it, or be fully capable of playing &/or fully understanding Irish Music!
Now those ideas really are BARMY!
I'm sure we have all seen folks from every corner of the globe who are absolutely brilliant players.
We are all entitled to enjoy this music in our own way, perhaps as this thread finally runs out of steam, we can all accept that there is quite simply more than one way to skin the ITM Cat.
"I use the word abstract in the strict artistic definition of the word. Where the created forms are nonrepresentational. Where the internal structures only refer to one another within the piece, or in this case, within the tradition.
The description of practices such as sociology or ethnomusicology being abstract is different. These "fields" take tangible real stuff and attempt to measure, quantify, pigeon hole and label them into abstracted categories."
Hiya,
So the forms are not representitive of *something* else? Seems quite materialist and cold to me, and, like empirical science, it seperates creative human spirit from the experience of creation and from a totality, you know, abstractly.
"I know some folks get very emotional when politics crop up here, but let's try & conduct ourselves in a civilised, adult manner, shall we?"
Who seems to be getting emotional? Do you deny that there are loyalist Flute bands who don't openly sport the slogan "Kick the Pope"? Am I really being sectarian for pointing out this fact?
I'm sorry, Tarmy, but the rest is just rehashed material from your already overlong posts. No offence intended, but its interesting to see your reaction when I attack a certain strain of sectarian biggots who, frankly, don't belong in the modern world unless they get their act together (maybe we could find them an island off the coast of Cuba or something and let the extremes of 'Orange' and 'Green' fight it out in a place where they are not confined by the laws and common sense of society).
You do seem to infer more from my posts than I intend to infer though, which is also interesting.
"Do you deny that there are loyalist Flute bands who don't openly sport the slogan "Kick the Pope"? Am I really being sectarian for pointing out this fact?" .... Yes, it might be argued so, when you insist on introducing them into this particular thread!
Can you tell us what you see as the connection between these players [ & their T Shirts ] & the musicians here who are discussing the playing of traditional Irish Music?
Do you believe anyone here is really interested in these religious & political bigots & pray tell, what do you see as the connection between these eejits & the musicians here who are discussing their own enjoyment of Irish Music?
Sorry if my post seemed overlong to you, forgive me, but as you clearly don't appear to understand where I'm coming from, I felt I had to labour my point.
You are, I suppose, entitled to rabbit on about these sectarian biggots, as is your wont, if you must, but I just don't see how dragging these, or any other mindless morons, into this particular discussion, enhances it one bit.
Do you honestly regard them as serious musicians?
If not, then perhaps we could just ignore them eh ....... who knows, if we do, they might just go away!
Must admit that I also infer more into Harry's posts, and come to the same conclusions as Ptarm.
Politics cannot "shape" music, unless something obvious like a slow air (Roisin Dubh) or a lament. A tune or a classical piece could be about, or inspired, by anything. You would need to know the history of the composer and why she/he composed that particular piece or tune. Many tunes are inspired by political events, but the music is not shaped by the events. Politics however would shape a lot of songs, because songs have words and thankfully can be used as a form of propaganda.
However, politics in Ireland, and history, quite often shapes why many start playing the music, especially among the diaspora as I explained some 100 posts ago.
My mistake Button, ah well, I was close - but hey, is that you fishing for compliments again? Now I'm sure you didn't get where you are today in the SF scene, without being able to put on a good show or entertain with an excellent musical performance! So less of the modesty eh!
N.B. In case anyone is in any doubt, that SF by the way was for San Francisco, not Sinn Féin. Although I've no doubt Gerry & Martin etc would be impressed by Button's digital dexterity on ye olde *Constant Screamer*!
Aye Bliss, songs are of course a completely different kettle of fish but I'm not so sure the tunes themselves would actually be inspired by political events, is it not more likely that someone just happens to come up with a catchy wee tune in their head, & then has to think of a name that people might actually remember.
P.S. That's a relief Bliss, I can cancel my appointment with my local shrink now - I was afraid it was only me!
First, it is abstract only in terms that it MAY be abstract. It does not follow that it IS abstract. The tune may be abstracted or not. It may exist on its own ( a rather cold way of looking at tune) or more likely exists within a framework and a context of both other tunes and the people playing them.
The people playing them may not find them abstract at all, but relational to other things. Just to say "this is abstract" is meaningless. Tunes arose, either for specific reasons or "just a name to a catchy tune." In either case they arose through circumstances particular to certain regions. This music did not independently occur sans culture. Politics derives from culture.
This isn't metaphysics, this is practical. The tunes must be both in relation to other tunes and to those playing them, and hopefully within SOME sort of context. Loose the context and then the music is a free-for-all.
I don't agree that the tunes are political in nature, but it seems disingenuous to suggest that politics had no part in the shaping of the music. Further, it would be impossible to prove. It is as ridiculous to suggest that they must be political as to suggest that the Irish culture didn't give rise to the music. Extremes have a nasty way of not making much sense.
Why is there an increasing tendency for people on here to say "sans" rather than "without"? Does it save on letters?Nearly as bad as that "ITM" abbreviation.
Anyway, although you speak with great certainty, I disagree. But it probably comes down to some preferred way of viewing all this. In my view, a tune IS abstract, or, IS an abstraction. The playing (or dare I say it, performing) of a tune is not. It's a human physical effort to get a series of sound waves out some yoke. Even if you were to posit that the process of *thinking* about a tune - neurons and synapses firing etc - was a physical phenomenon (which would be true) the *tune* itself is an abstraction. That's my point.
Where does "Toss the Feathers", suggested by Llig, come from? Is it political, and remember to me, a pint of beer is political to the extent that in 1936 it cost the same as a loaf of bread. You can get a loaf for 50p, beer is £2.45. Why?
The answer is "politics".
But this is music, and the playing of music, which is not an abstraction. You can, as I have repeatedly said, make it abstract from anything. Your choice. But it was not necessarily composed as abstract music or absolute music. Many composers imbued some meaning in their creation. You can view it with or without that attached meaning.
Practically, this means that it is not abstract. It is TRADITIONAL. It should be played in a traditional manner with traditional instruments. It exists within the context of the MUSIC, ITM, diddley, or whatever you call it. Anything else and you have a music that is abstract and therefore separate from it's roots, and therefore not subject to the playing that makes it traditional.
No, you don't have to immerse yourself in the politics or whatever to play and appreciate. Stating that they were irrelevant to the creation is absurd. As is getting petty about "sans."
Petty or whatever, I was merely registering my diregard for the word. Anyway, I get your points, including warning us of the "dangers" of abstracting too much, yes, fair enough, but I'm not sure you've got mine. What's the difference between two tunes, eg The Bucks of Oranmore and O'Dowds #2? Totally different arrangement of notes etc. That's what makes them different tunes. That's the core. Everything else - tunes' origins, their performance, everything, that hangs on them, is just that - epiphenomena hanging around the outside. So, to give the converse of your thesis, in PRACTICAL terms, it is that uniqueness of a particular tune that gives that tune its "life". That's why someone might say after you've played a nice tune, "Jees, what's the name of that last tune there? that's a mighty tune"
If you can't see it now I don't know how else to convey this.
Oh. BTW Bliss, so therefore everything is political, I guess is what you're trying to say. What about a supernova in some distant galaxy? Don't tell me that was Maggie Thatcher's fault? Or whoever was the Tory Prime Minister when it occurred.
Yes - I think that the song and the music has historical validity.
Sirely whoever wrote the hornpipe " Daniel O'Connell's Welcome to Parliament' had a political motive.
Bliss cites Roisin Dubh as potentially political but that is because it is the air of a song that can only be described as republican in nature. Roisin Dubh being the musical embodiment of Ireland.
Haryy is right to point out the lonney fringe of the loyalists since they use music as a specifically anti catholic tool. There is none of that hatred, bigotry or sectarianism in the irish tradition - at least not that I have experienced.
I have played diddley dee since I was about 12, my first paid gig was when I was just dhort of 16 and it was at the Easter Commemoration do for Sinn fein in Belfast's Green Briar. I have played in 'republican' folk groups, supported the hunger strikers by playing tunes at fund raisers, played at an anti aprtheid concert in the Royal Albert Hall but I do not see the tunes as elitist in the sense that I will welcome anyone into the session regardless of politics or religion.
I remember playing tunes in a band with policemen [RUC] and members of the Police Authority and never gave it a second thought BUT for me, the music IS political because it expresses my identity as an Irish man. I accept that for many it is merely a form of music which is either abstract or can be abstracted. For me it is part and parcel of who and what I am.
To me the music speaks of place, of family, of fun, of culture, of Ireland, of friends, of getting sh*t faced, of enjoying life, of escaping. These are probably more important that the role of the music in the politics of Ireland and I am ok with that.
Dalek, I can see it, but the argument posited by Michael Gill was that it was necessarily abstract. It does not have to be, and I do not espouse any extreme views. The tune may stand nicely on its own, or be part of a larger context depending on the participant. Gill seemed to be implying that the tunes arose almost mystically, divorced from the daily and political life of the Irish. Now they stand abstracted, without meaning other than self-referential. Then he derided other's logic for contending that they might have other meaning than the strictly abstract.
Yeah, right. Taking the view that it's all abstract by necessity is really just a bunch of mental masturbation. Politics shapes everything in society. Try proving it doesn't. Doesn't mean one has to embrace or immerse yourself in the politics. Just play the tunes.
"Everything else - tunes' origins, their performance, everything, that hangs on them, is just that - epiphenomena hanging around the outside. So, to give the converse of your thesis, in PRACTICAL terms, it is that uniqueness of a particular tune that gives that tune its "life"."
It is also the similarity between the two that make it "Irish" or "Traditional." You can disregard the origins, but it seems disrespectful and crass. These tunes did not originate in a vacuum. Their composers lead real lives, and it was their culture that formed the music.
Or, to put it another way, you don't have to learn Japanese to learn karate. But if you just learn the kicks and punches, you may be an effective fighter. But you haven't learned karate. Without the etiquette, the nod towards the origins, it's just fighting. Fine if that's what you're after.
My goodness, but you've a subtle way of being extremely abusive even if you don't know it yourself. Especially for someone with Tao in their username. So far you've managed to call us extreme, petty, absurd, w@nkers, and challenged us to prove something.
It is posiible to get your points across without resorting to belittling tactics you know.
Oh, and:
>Politics shapes everything in society. Try proving it doesn't
....easy. No it doesn't. The human genome shapes much of human behaviour, which then has a part in shaping society. Oh and what about that recent tsunami? And other natural phenomena. They've helped to shape some societies for better or worse.
"Can you tell us what you see as the connection between these players [ & their T Shirts ] & the musicians here who are discussing the playing of traditional Irish Music?"
Well, Tarmy, I have a rather inclusive view of 'Irish traditional music'; to me it includes all traditions of music played on the island of Ireland, such as self styled 'orange' flute bands (who, and I remember correctly, had 'Kick the Pope' written on their bass drums, not their tee shirts).
The conections between the music played by them and the music played by the musicians here is quite organic; it didn't/ doesn't exist in the cultural exclusion zones that some would like to think it did/does. I see it as an important document of the historical realities of this island and of this island's wider cultural hinterlands.
Dumb it down if it makes you feel better, but don't expect me or others to follow suit in any such unrealistic cultural revisionism.
I do know it, thank you. For somebody that called me on the perfectly normal "sans", your view seems a bit...angry. I don't think that I'm "extremely abusive." If I have been, I feel certain Jeremy will call me on it.
And tao is slightly more complicated that the usual new-age version. Their is a tao to martial arts and various other forms of ritualized violence. It simply means "path" or "way."
I have challenged EXTREMISTS to prove their point, which cannot be done. And I can't seem to recall calling anybody a w@nker lately. So unless you are positing that the music is necessarily abstract, then you really have no cause to be angry with me.
The human genome...shapes people. People shape culture. Culture shapes politics. I don't think you can remove the political element. And the tsunami has already spawned some music lamenting the event. I wouldn't play it and suggest it was simply abstract music. That was my point. I don't recall ever saying it was all political. Politics played a part.
Not angry at all, just very mildly bemused. I've already said my thing about sans. You said mental *masturbation*, & that equals w@nker over here.
You are now trumpetting that you've successfully challenged what you refer to as extremists to prove a point. Good for you.
You're still wrong about politics shaping everything in society.
(That IS what you said.) Another example - inventions and technological progress, such as cars, clean drinking water, industrialisation, all that. They've shaped society as well. It seems to me if they have any effect at all, political systems merely expedite technological "progress".
Insert heavy sigh...it does shape everything. As does everything else. Your own example about the genome...it shapes the human form, but other factors shape it as well, nutrition and amputation to name two. I did not say it was the only shaping factor. It does shape everything...but it is not the only shaping event. Don't hang your hat on the fact "politics shapes everything."
Further, please read my posts in context. I said it does not necessarily need to be abstracted, not that it could not be abstracted. Are you stating that it is necessarily abstract? No? Then I wasn't referring to you. Please re-read, then I will await my lavish apology
"political systems merely expedite technological "progress".
Yes, unionist dominated politics has done wonders for the piano accordeon in Ireland... anyone here for a benevolent (fiddle playing) fascist dictatorship?
>Politics shapes everything in society
- That's what you said, a few posts above.
>Insert heavy sigh
- Now that type of patronising phrase *does* get me resentful. Especially from someone who has proved nothing that they claimed they have.
I have read your posts, it seems, better than you have read them yourself. Of course I am not stating this music is by necessity abstract but I am saying the abstract element is an essential - very essential - component. And with that I'm off to bed.
Music & Politics?
Music & Politics?
"There is a long history of the connection between music and politics, particularly political expression in music. This expression has most often used anti-establishment or protest themes, although pro-establishment ideas are also used, for example in national anthems." - So says Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_and_politics
What got me thinking about this was Dan's post in a thread next door, when he had this to say about his approach to enjoying playing ITM:
"Part of the appeal of playing Irish music - for me, anyway - is playing something and thinking,
"This is the same music that fought English oppression."
"This is the same music that brought the Irish spirit to America."
"This is the same music that created and bound a community in America."
"This is the same music that saved Ireland's morale from complete collapse."
Fair play to Dan, he of course has every right to enjoy his music whichever way he chooses.
I personally don't like to mix politics & music. However, living in Norn Iron as I do, it's often hard to escape the connections, when the two main sides of the *argument* up here, constantly trot out their own brand of so called musical culture at public events & gatherings, to bolster their image.
For my part, I play many different forms of Trad music & often play sets which include music from different countries, so I think I'd get myself in a real fankle if I were to mix political thinking with my music.
For Dan's part, he also says that:
"This is the same music that Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford and Padraig O'Keefe played."
"This is the same music a thousand nameless masters before me played."
"There's a connection to something greater that makes the music meaningful."
Now these latter feelings are much more akin to my own thoughts, were I to be actually thinking about anything at all, when I played.
So having read Dan's post, it made me wonder just how many musicians here play simply for the love of the music, the sounds the instruments make alone & together, the craic & the camaraderie etc etc?
How many think of stuff like the old masters, the beauty of Ireland, old friends & musicians past & gone & old sessions they have enjoyed etc etc.
On the other hand, how many are actually caught up in the politics of Ireland when they play & perhaps feel that ITM has perhaps had a significant role to play in Ireland's history?
Facing up to reality though, I realise that this thread is probably on a hiding to nothing as those who are political in their musical approach may well be unlikely to respond & show their cards, while those who, like myself just play for the simple pleasure that the act gives them, will have absolutely no interest in contributing to this thread, as it will mean absolutely nothing to them.
Oh well, if you got this far ..... thanks for reading.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
Ptarm, what was that other thread? Can you give the link here, please...
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Music & Politics?
Love the music, hate the politics.
Years ago I was at a session in Kilkenny where the then minister for agriculture, Jim Gibbons, was asked to do a "party piece" ( this was before the latest episode of " the troubles" ,about 1967ish) He proudly sang The Sash. Two or three years later, he would have been hung for singing an Orange song. Someday we'll get back to that level of sanity.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Backer
Re: Music & Politics?
Oh, man. What did I do now -_-
Be aware, I suppose, that the comments were about why I prefer older tunes to modern ones. Were I to explain why I play at all, "for the love of the music, the sounds the instruments make alone & together, the craic & the camaraderie" pretty much nails it on the head. I try to think of it, by the by, less as a matter of political activism and more a matter of appreciation for the richness of the history. Tune histories make me happy!
--DtM
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: Music & Politics?
Interesting Wikipedia article - thanks!
I don't understand anything like the whole story behind some Irish music. However, the "politics" behind some pieces of music has also enriched my enjoyment (and that of my audience) as it adds context. For example, Haydn's "Farewell Symphony" was a protest at the money paid to his court orchestra, and closer to home, I originally learned Carolan's "Squire Woods' Lamentation on the Refusal of his Halfpence" because of the great title, only later discovering that that piece has undertones about Irish indepence from England. The Squire Woods piece is still a great piece, but it's even better if you know the story behind it. Having said that, I know enough that I'd be nervous of initiating any tunes in Ireland without finding out about the associations they might have in the minds of the listeners. In that sense, music and politics are pretty much intertwined, whether we like it or not.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Music & Politics?
This thread intrigues me, many thanks for kicking it off.
I will presume to quote Chris Langan, piper and teacher of pipers, on where I believe some of us feel we touch our feelings about the deeper "why" of playing any style of TRAD:
Chris said (possibly quoting another piper, but who cares?)
"You're talking to past generations in a language that's understood."
Sometime at a session, playing an old tune played by many before me, and danced to by many before my time, I believe I can feel the presence of past generations of musicians and dancers with us. They draw nearer to the sound of the pipes and fiddle, their involvement and longing are a tangible thing in the room, sharing again something that is forever new and forever timeless.
It's not the simple transitory notes we sound, gone like smoke as soon as they are played, I suspect. Rather, it may be the passion and the sense of communion that the music can bring.
Trying to express the inexpressable. Hope it wasn't too E.A Poe. ("Once upon a session weary...")
Ah, well.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Rook
Re: Music & Politics?
For me its all about FUN not who my great grandfather was nor for whom I vote, Making music together rather than argument .
The coorperative effort over the indevidual ego
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Music & Politics?
"I believe I can feel the presence of past generations of musicians and dancers with us. They draw nearer to the sound of the pipes and fiddle, their involvement and longing are a tangible thing in the room, sharing again something that is forever new and forever timeles"
This is worse than mere twaddle, it's self delusion of the highest order.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
I was being lazy, I found it, the root of this one:
Discussion: "Modern tunes vs trad tunes"
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12981
& Dan the Man's comment that started it all:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12981/comments#comment266301
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Music & Politics?
And here's another
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4997
and there's a classic in there of me making an absolute idiot of myself: quote
"I was thinking about tune names not meaning anything, and much as I'd like them not to, some do mean something. The Graf Spey is a nice example. It has nothing of course to do with the German pocket battleship but it has everything to do with huddling round a radio in the winter of 1939, transfixed by far away wranglings in Montevideo. The title of the tune puts it squarly in a time and place, and that's interesting"
... says it all
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Good for you michael to admit that you're not perfect. My favourite quotes from the above twaddle are:
"This is the same music that brought the Irish spirit to America."
"This is the same music that created and bound a community in America"
Oh.
And there was me thinking we generally talked about Irish trad music on this site, not something that bolsters the spirit of a failing expansionist aggressive superpower with a non-elected government.
Sorry I got that one wrong.
In answer to the original question, I'd say most of the time jigs and reels are not political because they usually don't have words. Music usually becomes political when it has words to it. Beethoven's Eroica symphony was political because Beethoven said so. He wrote it celebrate Napoleon's victories. You'd have to be pretty clever to work that out if no-one had told you, cos it's just notes. Anyway waht is meant by "politics" here? Party politics? National or international or class politics? Geopolitics? It's dead easy to ask are politics and music related but a more terse exact definition is required (IMHO.)
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
I played Andean music before I got into ITM and I was attracted to it for it's beauty and power. I realized soon after I discovered it that it played a distinct role in the politics of Latin America. I was attracted to ITM before I realized its significance as well, and if you compare the two you'll find some basic similarities. Both were from cultures that foreign occupiers attempted to destroy, and both became stronger and more beautiful as a result. They are both a feature of cultures that persevered extreme adversity, and are now expressions of their independence and self-pride.
Another interesting comparison is the similarity between what Chileans call, “penas” and the Irish call, “sessions.” Both started out as informal gatherings for camaraderie and playing traditional music. The Chilean pena has more of an emphasis on politics, but the other similarities are striking.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
Eerrr, no. "expressions of independence and self-pride."??
I respectfully refer you to the discussion:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12848
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
"And there was me thinking we generally talked about Irish trad music on this site, not something that bolsters the spirit of a failing expansionist aggressive superpower with a non-elected government."
I feel really stupid in that I am sincerely perplexed by this quote. I'm not sure if it's sarcasm, or if somewhere between us I'm missing the idea of the governments of Britain (above description apropos) and Ireland (probably still apropos, but like, a thousand years ago), or what's going on. Clarification, maybe?
"Anyway waht is meant by "politics" here?"
This I can definitely back you on though. I mean, I had really intended to evoke -history-, not politics, although the two are clearly tied. I had, naively enough, not even been thinking about how a phrase like "English oppression" has a bit more punch for some than it does for an American born in 1990. Your query, though, pretty well dives into the vein I seem to have inadvertently nicked.
--DtM
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: Music & Politics?
Hey Dan, it's your own vain you've nicked.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Michael, just as I pointed out in that thread, the percentage of Irish people interested in traditional music is probably similar to the percentage of Americans interested in American traditional folk music. The same is probably true in Chile as well. I think it's safe to assume that people who are interested in their country's cultural arts have a sense of self-pride and identify with them. I think it would also be safe to assume that it would represent their cultures perseverance, especially if their culture had been severely repressed by an occupying force.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
So the validity comes from a minority that have a sense of self pride?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Validity?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
Don't know about the politics I just like the music because of the way it sounds and the fun and I have trying to play it. My Dad loved it so I was raised listening to it and I get a real thrill when I find another lovely tune to learn.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by flossie
Re: Music & Politics?
The "validity" comes from a minority that "just like the music because of the way it sounds and the fun they have trying to play it."
Pride is not attractive. Self pride is possitively ugly
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
i came to it first purely through the call of the modal minor, which unbeknownst to me was hardwired into my dna.....the receptors just were never activated until i heard galax/roundpeak style appalachian oldtime music, which then led me to itm. then, wooo-woooo, i discovered that a) my paternal grammy was, literally, a tobacco-chewing north carolina hillbilly from exactly that same oldtime-music region; and b) four of my greatgrandparents were famine immigrants. but as time passed, the music came to resonate on all these other levels----its political significance came to be cherished as i gained insight into how my own "fight the power" tendencies are actually rooted in my family history, and the music's tragic and joyous emotional content came to be cherished as i gained insight into the historical/cultural dimensions of my own family's history of tragedy, self-destruction, humor & joy.....so, the music rang in the neural receptors first, but all the other stuff is there....
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Music & Politics?
To me, the music is an apolitical place.
My background is London middle class back to Victorian times. That disqualifies me from singing most trad songs; I could hardly launch into "I Am A Rambling Irishman" / "I Am A Bold Miner" / "The Patriot Game" - etc., with any credibility, to myself even, and it would be worse yet for me to hijack a song which expresses the real hurt of someone else's industrial accident or war, without having any share in it myself. I did envy (seemingly) confident people who were Irish, Scottish, Geordie, and/or working class, who had these often marvellous songs as their birthright, but it wasn't mine. And I'm no singer anyway. So I listen.
When I started out in the 70s, the Troubles made anything to do with Ireland edgy. Someone in an Irish session might sing a really hate-filled song about the English; English guys might bunch up and barrack the Irish. Nothing did happen when I was in such a set-up, but there was always the feeling practically anything might. Left-wingers in swarms came to show solidarity with the Irish and were a bloody nuisance when quiet was needed for a song. I heard of unfathomable cruelties committed by members of both the Catholic and Protestant communities. I wanted no involvement at all with any of the politics, and stopped putting coins into the collections that circulated.
With tunes, it was just so different - an escape from the murk of class, and national divides, and war, into clear blue sky. No baggage - and as far as I can see, very few dance tunes have political connotations (I may still be wrong). I associated Irish and other trad tunes, along with other pieces of music, with the scenery of a favourite place - the North Pennines in and around the west of Co. Durham (UK). And I see the tunes as mine if I can play them adequately. If I can't, it shows, and I drop it or crank away at practising it; if I can, again it shows. Simple as that.
So for me personally, the tunes are non-political.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Music & Politics?
More twaddle. I don't know how many generations it takes for a particular behaviour to be "hard wired" into your dna, but I'd like to bet it's at least thousands of times more than three. To think otherwise is racist.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
sorry nicholas, the "twaddle" was meant for ceemonster
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
I have the ancestors and the irish blood and oppression and famine running through my viens, I can feel the spirits within me because my greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandaddy blah de blah blah blah blah......
Tunes are nice I like them, sessions are great craic, I like them, festivals are great fun, I like them.
Music I play because i like it - not because of politics.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by bb
Re: Music & Politics?
wow, really?????? no kidding!!!!!.......threads on this site seem to be taking less and less time to get nasty and ad hominem of late....
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Music & Politics?
Yes - and for some reason it always seems to happen when specific people are around. Weird huh?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by bb
Re: Music & Politics?
A Nice Kalm Day asked what was meant by the word "politics." I think when Ptarmigan referred to "politics" he implied Irish nationalist politics and the history of the country's fight for independence from England and its efforts to create/maintain a national identity.
And to answer his question, no, not really. When I'm playing I usually think, "F*ck, I'm playing too open," or "oh, don't f*ck up the rhythm- d*mn, didn't need that beat anyway." In more sentimental moments, I think of whoever taught me the tune or whoever I used to play that tune frequently with, especially if they are someone far away or out of contact for a variety of weird reasons I seem to be perpetually enmeshed in. At least there are the tunes transcending distance, bullsh*t, and yes, politics. Somewhere out there, someone is playing "The Woman of the House."
On a more general level, I got into the music for the way it sounded, not the politics.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Music & Politics?
the original post offered opinions and thoughts, and asked folks to offer theirs. there was not a request for folks to bray like donkeys at those responding to the original post. you have a nice day now!!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Music & Politics?
I have the irish blood as well. And some scottish. Probably some english, too. Politics puts me off the music altogether. I quit playing out in sessions for a while because of stupid politics. Some of it was personal stuff between people at the session. But a big part of it was "the troubles". Many times, our session turned into a soapbox for people who had relatives in No. Ireland. They demanded certain republican songs, forbade some tunes, and generally just got in the way. Who needed that? Not me.
So its not about my ancestry or how green and lovely Ireland is. I enjoy playing Irish tunes and listening to others play, I like good singing and I like to dance the sets.
House sessions were much more fun because we could just play the tunes, hear a few songs, dance a bit, and drink some beer. Just fun, no politics.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by John Culhane
Re: Music & Politics?
I was at a very nice session once where this Comhaltas guy stood up afterward and urged everyone to sign their petition to lobby the US Congress for increased Irish immigration quotas. Kind of killed the warm fuzzy mood I was in.
I was at another session once where I ended up having a conversation with the bartender about how they (people where he was from) should have bombed more English pubs when they had the chance. He was serious. I couldn't change the subject fast enough!
Music and politics are a bad combination in my opinion. That's not what Dan meant by his original comments, though. He was talking about history and culture as they relate to music, and that I totally understand. The idea that I am learning to play the exact same music my great-grandfather listened to is very cool! It adds to my enjoyment of the music.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Music & Politics?
I too think people that play this music play it because they like it. That's definitely the case for me, and I have no Irish heritage to feel any pride about, but I don't think ITM exists in a vacuum either. The British tried to destroy Irish music and culture... and failed. I would imagine Irish people would feel pride over the fact that the Brits failed in destroying their music, and I would be willing to bet that it occurs to them from time to time as they're playing it and enjoying it.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
I like that statement about past generations gathering around us. I'll even take it a step further and speculate that ITM touches our souls to the extent that it does because it stems from a people who originally had a deep reverence and resonance with Mother Earth and all of its' Nature.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by morning star
Re: Music & Politics?
I actually think that the music came from heaven itself. Whenever we play it, we envelop ourselves in heaven's goodness and we can all feel as one. It's as though we are joining hands but not in the literal sense. We are at peace with the music and ourselves, and at once we may fleetingly become of the earth and of the soaring heights of the heavens above. Only through reliving the pain suffering of our ancestors as they struggled against their oppressors and found their feet in new foreign lands may we discover our true selves and truly understand the souls of our fellow musicians. Yeah whatever.. Please. Shut. The. Feck. Up.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Dow
Re: Music & Politics?
Stop beating around the bush Dow and say what you really think.
Getting back to the issue that that Great Beast of the North Ptarm raised, I spend most of my waking hours (those that aren't devoted to wiping small children's bottoms, feeding reluctant little mouths etc etc) being a professional red-ragging, militant, loud-mouthed, self-righteous, government-funded (though begrudgingly from their point of view I might say!) social justice pain-in-the-bum. One of the things I love most about this music is that people do it together in a pub or in someone's kitchen and that it builds community and relationship (unless you're Dow or Michael G in which case it helps you build virtual Molotov cocktails). That's just about as political as it gets in a world that feeds off mindless consumption and television. And the internet!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Music & Politics?
Good Morning. Ah ha, so somebody did answer!
Well, well, well. It seems like some folks here think about all sorts of stuff when they are playing, or perhaps they just like to think that they like to think about all kinds of stuff when they play, although what I probably think they most probably mean is that they like us, or everyone else around them, to think that they actually are thinking about all kinds of stuff when they play. ..... I think!
I suspect though that most of us are just worried more about getting the wee twiddly bits right & about making sure we repeat each part only once & make a smooth change from one tune to the next.
However, if it makes you happy to think that your thinking about all kinds of other stuff when you are playing, then who are we to stop you, ........ you have our permission to carry on with your delusions of grandeur!
This notion that maybe a 17 year old ITM player anywhere is actually thinking seriously about Irish Politics & the auld enemy when they play their music, makes to me about as much sense as those little children who are trooped out at CCE sessions &/or competitions to sing songs about their lost love, Ireland's dreadful past or the famine!
I suspect that anyone who got into this music because of politics is unlikely to stay the course.
At the end of the day they are all just bonny wee tunes.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
"Pride is not attractive. Self pride is possitively ugly"
Priceless. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Careful Dow, or we'll sic the wee folk on ye.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by morning star
Re: Music & Politics?
Dick, you didn't ask what a 17 year old ITM player thinks, you asked, "On the other hand, how many are actually caught up in the politics of Ireland when they play & perhaps feel that ITM has perhaps had a significant role to play in Ireland's history?
That's the question I attempted to address. I happen to be very interested in politics, and it affects my musical preferences. I don't think my interest in politics and how politics and history may or may not be related to music means I'm "unlikely to stay the course." Why did you start this thread? Did you intend to have any response, or should I have gathered from the last paragraph in your premise that we were somehow wrong if we replied at all?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
I think the really important thing is to absolutely mock anybody that enjoys the music for any reason other than one you find comfortable. There's absolutely a right reason to enjoy the music and several wrong reasons. Anybody disagreeing with you is full of twaddle and an edgit, and deserves your sneers.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
</sarcasm>
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
hey taocat, I bet you think Alanis Morissette if clever.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
I don't think I've ever heard her. But I do find it funny that a man so infatuated with his opinions as to pronounce them facts would find self-pride so ugly.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
I commend Mark Harmer's earlier comment. You can't retrospectively unravel the music from its history, nor, as an outsider should you try. On the other hand, I also cringe when I hear mawkish songs that are past their sell-by date. I would suggest the music may be in a transition phase in terms of its political resonance. Patience and tolerance are needed, not bulls in china shops.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by P-K
Re: Music & Politics?
Game set and match to TaoCat!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Music & Politics?
At the end of the day they are all just bonny wee tunes.
Fact or opinion?
Any notion to imbue them with political resonance is, at best, naive. At worst, a deliberate hijack of innocence.
Fact or opinion?
Any notion that you can play/appreciate this music better if you have Irish ancestry is, at best, naive. At worst, racist.
Fact or opinion?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Quote from Phantom and echoed by a couple of others "The British tried to destroy Irish music and culture... and failed. I would imagine Irish people would feel pride over the fact that the Brits failed in destroying their music, and I would be willing to bet that it occurs to them from time to time as they're playing it and enjoying it"
Please elaborate.!!!! When and how did the British try to destroy Irish music and culture? I am Irish, I would regard myself as being reasonably well informed on matters of Irish history but have never heard any evidence of this. The English and Scottish planters certainly seized Irish lands, at one time they tried to suppress Roman Catholicism through the penal laws etc. but how did they go about trying to destroy Irish music - by shooting anyone with a fiddle or pipes? Get lost.
Two forces that did suppress ITM were (1) the 'victorian ' Catholic church who closed down house dances, crossroads dancing (2) a general cultural move away from speaking gaeilge and playing ITM as these were considered 'backward'.
But I certainly don't think the Brits were going round squinting in cottage windows to see who was having a hooley. Sure, the hornpipe form is generally regarded as having come from military (British) music.
Even in Norn Ire, the music of both nationalist and unionist settlers intermingled - go read Gary Hastings book 'With Fife & Drum'
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Music & Politics?
To follow on just from the last comment - so who tried to destroy english culture then ?
I would suggest, very much like the two forces identified by our wounded hussar ( love that tune, too ) , it was well hinted at in Flora Thompson's Lark Rise, about an Oxfordshire hamlet in the late Victorian period, how the young girls would go off to work in the big houses of the local gentry, whilst their sweathearts would remain working in the rural community. When they married the girls would bring back with them a distorted ideal of good behaviour and culture, and try to deny their spouses the enjoyment of traditional pursuits like morris dancing, mumming plays, and singing in the pub, all as being lower class. The result of this is to denigrate what are our own cultural roots - I recall there was this great movement around the time of Cecil Sharpe, to try to get away from the influence of German music on our own culture, and this was one of the driving forces behind his awakening interest in folk music. One of the results of this denigration was that remark by Kim Howells, the government minister, that his ideal of Hell would be three traditional singers in a Somerset pub.
Something similar, in relation to language, happened, as my father observed, in the Channel Islands, where, about 1910 or so, it became uncouth to be heard speaking in the local patois, the norman-french, because it showed you were, frankly, a peasant. Nowadays you can go to evening classes in it. How things change.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Music & Politics?
Fact or opinion?
Music that has survived due to its tenacious quality is generaly better than music revived through political intent.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
"Sweathearts" - sweethearts......
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Music & Politics?
"so who tried to destroy english culture then"...
If the selectors did a better job sorting out their test cricketers, there'd be less temptation...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Music & Politics?
Michael, it's time to turn the computer off and go to work.
Fact or opinion?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Music & Politics?
I am inclined to agree with Wounded Hussar´s comments, and would be interested to see firm evidence that the English rulers (including the Anglo-Irish aristocracy) set out to supress the playing of traditional music.
At certain periods of Irish history it is well known that the country´s rulers attempted to suppress the cultural and religious manifestations of the "natives", including penalties for the speaking of Irish in public places (although it probably continued to be spoken in the homes), and I believe the pipes (uilleann or war pipes ?) were banned as part of this cultural repression, but did that amount to a systematic attack on the playing of traditional music ?
Would it not have been more likely that playing, listening and dancing to traditional music was tolerated because it " kept them off the streets" when they would otherwise have become involved in politics ? Something similar to the role of football in Spain under the Franco régime ?
These are not rhetorical questions. I am not a historian and would be interested to hear opinions about this.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Music & Politics?
Yes, the British establishment, in so, so many ways throughout history robbed this country blind of more than just its youth and resources; but when it comes to culture look no further than our own genius for born again morality as sanctioned by those pious schizophrenics who think that Jesus Christ would have any interest in the affairs of shady, rich statelets in Rome.
http://www.setdance.com/archive/the_dance_halls.html
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
As far as I know it was the Irish war pipes that were banned, in the c16 - 17 - they were used to muster and inspire Irish rebel armies as long as these existed. They were last used by exiled Irish troops at the Battle of Fontenoy, some time round 1740.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Music & Politics?
Ptarm mate. you sure like to ramble
but a couple of excellent points.....When I play tunes I always envisage the guys who played them before me and feel a certain sense of pride in some sets, maybe that's a Norn Iron thingy ? If it wasn't for nationalism the music would be dead ! Vive la revolution 
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Re: Music & Politics?
Who tried to destroy English culture then? You lot have all forgotten Margaret Thatcher!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Music & Politics?
It must have been Jink's Stack in that Somerset pub.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Music & Politics?
Harry, that Flann is priceless. Thanks for that.
" I do not think that there is any real ground for regarding Irish dancing as a sovereign spiritual and nationalistic prophylactic. If there is, heaven help the defenceless nations of other lands." Genius
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Oh, I did note that Ptarmy's first post quoted Wikipedia. An unimpeachable source of information (oh, by the way, did you know that there has been a population boom of African elephants?).
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Music & Politics?
Wikipedia's probably more reliable than most encyclopedias - more up to date, a wider base of users / editors...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Music & Politics?
Harry, btw , sorry for going off topic guys, nice interview and playing on The Late Session. Answer me this....you know a Derry flute player Paddy O' Neill ?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Re: Music & Politics?
I have read histories describing how musicians and local ethnic styles of music came under fire in both Scotland and Ireland, part of misguided efforts to meld "Great Britain" together more closely. In Scotland, I read that this effort was aided and abetted by the Presbeterian Church, which at one time seemed to view dance music as a tool of the devil.
Music is part of cultures and subcultures, and part of the way they express themselves. Every human endeavor ends up being captured in song at some point. I myself prefer the political end of it to remain out of it, as it works to divide us as much as unite us.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Music & Politics?
Surely, yes, divisive politics has/will divide us, but, wouldn't cohesive politics bring us together?
An 'anti politics' or exclusion stance seems pretty extreme.
This country could do with much more by way of cohesive politics and thinking in general, without getting all naive and fudging the issues and all that. 'PC' is not a brand name and I think it would be preferable if 'PC' actually translated into sound, fair policy and not knee-jerk tokenism as is generally the case. Then again, ignorance IS a relative sort of bliss I suppose.
Regards,
Harry
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
Nicely put, Harry.
And since we are discussing politics and culture, this link may prove to be of interest (I neither endorse or condemn it, just present it): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/opinion/11mccallsmith.html?th&emc=th
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Music & Politics?
Yes, I've been following the story. I agree with the author though, he is being idealistic if he thinks that evidence of a common gene pool will unite the UK: people construct their identity using their personal and cultural experiences and, unfortunately, these haven't been so cohesive historically, genes don't tell us who we think we are.
Cultural idealism, of course, is just as fraught with fodder for the bullsh*tometer. The reality of cultural connections between these islands is longstanding and varied and not at all what most people of a strident cultural nationalist or unionist confusion are willing to swallow.
Just the other day there was some crap artist on Pat Kenny's daytime RTE radio show explaining that the union pipes were some sort of garbled Scots import to the northern counties, brought in by protestant ministers to play the role of a type of church pipe organ... complete horse balls... Kenny's response? "Why, that's fascinating". The interviewee was involved in one of these dour Ulster Scots pantomimes that is trying to get off the ground I think.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
Recent samples (blood, DNA, whatever) have proved the English are all Celtic. Other recent samples have proved we're all Germanic.
Obviously George Best twisted all our blood.
(For young ones, it was said of footballer George Best that when he evaded tackles, he left the tackler "with twisted blood"...)
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Music & Politics?
Michael Gill was a famous Galway hurler in the 1920s, also played for Dublin, so there is a chance that his namesake may have some Irish ancestry. If he hasn't, he is speaking mostly twaddle, because he could not possibly know anything about the influence ALL things presumed to be Irish has on the Irish diaspora.
We are not saying you need to be Irish to play/appreciate the music. We are saying that the diaspora cling to the music and dancing as a declaration of Irishness, thereby nationalism.
That is a fact.
My main interest in life is politics, as all things are political. For "Irish" music many tunes would have political overtones, yet nothing to do with nationalism, in that they celebrated customs and mores, many of which were political. Many of the songs are political, from "chucky" stuff to left wing broad sheets.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Music & Politics?
tunes for fun, songs for thinking, but also for fun
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by S.McMullen
Re: Music & Politics?
"(1) the 'victorian ' Catholic church who closed down house dances, crossroads dancing.." - Aye Hussar, & they were also dead against "knee tremblers" - afraid that they would lead to dancing!
If it is the case that the English were hell bent on the subjugation of the cultures in Scotland, Ireland & Wales, isn't it just a little ironic that today, it seems to me at least that the traditional musical culture of these other three nations is far stronger, richer & more diverse than that of England.
As for that theory about the first smallpipes coming over to the northern counties from Scotland or Northumberland. I don't really think any Uilleann Piper today gives a toss, quite frankly where the first smallpipes actually came from originally. Some say they arrived first with the Romans - but does it really matter in the scheme of things today? The important factor surely is that, wherever they came from, the pipemakers here took the simple instrument they were presented with & proceeded to develop, what I believe are now, the most sophisticated set of bagpipes in the World.
However, getting back to the topic - Button, you asked why I started this thread. Well, I thought I made that clear in my thread.
I posted Dan's comments & it was these that I found so interesting, so I just wished to explore the notion that some folks have all sorts of strange thoughts going through their heads when they play - simple as that really.
However, I had noticed how, in the past, the word politics in a thread topic appeared to be a big turn off, so I wasn't convinced I would see many replies, but I'm surprised & delighted to see so many interesting responses.
I'm not entirely surprised though that things have got a little heated, what with the word politics in the title. There is something about that little word which always manages to raise the temperature, don't you think?
Here's a thought - are some of you implying that you really need to have an understanding of Irish History to be able to play Irish Music, well?
Oh, & llig:
"At the end of the day they are all just bonny wee tunes." - just my opinion, not a fact.
I do understand that some are more bonny than others.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
Scientists are now finding that our DNA points to the Kalahari in Africa as being the original humans on the planet.
War is an unfortunate side-effect to being human.
However, music has always helped us to put up with each other.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by morning star
Re: Music & Politics?
Ptarmigan,
The said speaker wasn't refering to the samll pipes, he was refering to the uilleann pipes, which is why Terry Moylan, archivist with NPU and authority on the history of the uilleann pipes, responded with an email to the show to attempt to correct any confusion that may have been caused by the speaker's erroneous and distorting view.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
I would submit that tunes and dance do more to unify us than songs do. It is when we open our mouths to speak that the trouble begins.....
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Music & Politics?
I assume that the uilleann and the various British bellows pipes were all developed out of the c17-18 French musette.
The idea of bagpipes in Presbyterian churches seems pretty preposterous. But I was amused to read that when Cromwell banned organ music from churches in England, the organs were promptly snapped up and installed in pubs, where music-making was not affected by the regime.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Music & Politics?
Yes, Nicholas, but the French musette was a development on a little known Dutch bagpipe called the Williametta Mk III. This fascinating instrument is historically connected to the court of William of Orange.
The instrument was adopted by the Catholics who fought for William on the Boyne who hadn't the intelligence to invent or adapt their own bagpipe. The sound of the instrument was so uninteresting though that it is reported that the vast majority of its players soon converted to puritan methodism and moved North away from the pleasent climate in the South. Scholars agree ( two scholars in a loyalist housing estate in Ballymena that is) that the modern Ullan pipes (or uilleann pipes as they are now mistakenly called) derived from the Williametta MkIII.
....And if you believe that then King Billy's horse WAS white!
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
Dick askes: "Are some of you implying that you really need to have an understanding of Irish History to be able to play Irish Music, well?"
I'm certainly not, but my interest in global politics leads me to find out what I can. I'm not an expert in Irish politics, but that's not my main focus right now. I probably know more about recent Irish politics than I do about the history, but that's because I spend a lot of time at a very political Irish pub here in SF. This doesn't contribute to my ability to play Irish music, but it does embellish it a bit.
I don't have time to research this right now, but I remember reading about how the British rounded up all the harps they could find and burned them. Is there any truth to this? I remember it in the context of how O'Carolan's music survide despite the attempt to destroy the culture and music that goes along with it.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
I don't know Phantom, that sounds pretty dodgy.
There is a famous illustration of a piper being hung for playing 'seditious tunes', but there was'nt really a specific attack or campaign against the culture, just more general measures that contributed to the detriment and decline of cultural practices.
In the Carolin and before him we're also talking about the birth of modern nationalism, so these symbols of 'Irishness' were seen rather differently than they are seen today.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
Sent it early by mistake...last line should read:
In the O'Carolin and pre-O'Carolin times we're talking about pre-modern nationalism, so these symbols of 'Irishness' were seen rather differently than they are generally today.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
What provocation do you think it would take for the Poms to pour out of their strongholds and burn all the banjoes? Or hang scores of bodhran players? Or smash all those funny little shaker eggs?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Music & Politics?
Excerpt from The Statutes of kilkenny 1367........................."XV. Also, whereas the Irish agents who come amongst the English, spy out the secrets, plans, and policies of the English, whereby great evils have often resulted; it is agreed and forbidden, that any Irish agents, that is to say, pipers, story-tellers, bablers, rimers, mowers, nor any other Irish agent shall come amongst the English, and that no English shall receive or make gift to such; and that shall do so, and be attainted, shall be taken, and imprisoned, as well the Irish agents as the English who receive or give them any thing, and after that they shall make fine at the king's will; and the instruments of their agency shall forfeit to our lord the king. "
Ok then, which of ye is going to admit to being a babler?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Backer
Re: Music & Politics?
"The idea of bagpipes in Presbyterian churches seems pretty preposterous." nicholas, I wouldn't actually rule that idea out, completely.
For example, the old Hammered Dulcimer players of the Glens of Antrim speak of this instrument having been used in some small churches, where the cost of buying & installing an organ was beyond their means.
This was obviously in the days before cheap electric Yamaha Keyboards. Now obviously a handyman could knock up a Hammered Dulcimer quite quickly & cheaply whereas even a peddle-powered Harmonium would have been rather expensive back then, so the possibility that the odd church may have in fact made use of a set of Smallpipes, I don't think is totally out of the questiion.
However, I do believe you are correct in assuming that the various British bellows pipes were all developed out of the c17-18 French musette.
But of course, to most of us, it matters not, whether the pre-uilleann pipe was a French, English or Scottish bellows pipe - unless of course you are of an Irish Nationalist persuasion, in which case you may well prefer to think of the inspiration coming from a French instrument, rather than from one from either of the other two areas.
Button, you say your knowledge of Irish politics embellishes your ability to play the music. I wonder, would you perhaps like to explain how?
I can see how a personal knowledge of the Geography of this island might enhance ones enjoyment, for example, when playing tunes which have names of places in their title, you might think back fleetingly of times spent in those areas. But I don't see the connection with politics myself .... but I'm probably just being a bit thick!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
"Ok then, which of ye is going to admit to being a babler?" ....Forsooth .... who gave the game away? OK it's a fair cop! I confess! ..... guilty as charged Backer .... do your worst!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
Queen Elizebeth I famously decreed that all Irish pipers were to be arrested and promptly hanged, but I seem to remember that there is little evidence to suggest that this was widely acted on.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
I assume she was talking about the big pipes there Harry, in which case, I wonder was it around this time that the Irish famously gave the big pipes to the Scots? .... & as we all know, we haven't seen the joke yet!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
The 'Irish' uilleann pipes are identified with Ireland in the same way that the 'Scots' bagpipe is associated with Scotland (but to a lesser degree in the popular imagination). They are identified thus because of their context, not because of their historical ancestry as an instruments. they have been developed creatively in countries that obviously have a raport with the instrument, this is not exclusive by any means, as we know the Piob Mor has a long and illustrous history in Ireland as well.
I agree that it doesn't matter where they come from, but it does seem to matter to some. And that is when we should really start to listen, you know, the old bullsh*tometer, because there's a little process going on in this country (its been going on in many various quarterts for years) that I like to call 'cultural engineering' and its a sort of pseudo 'folk history' that likes to hide its ugly sectarian little head in the grey area that subjective folk memory creates. Harmless enough when its harmless, but every once in a while you see a nasty little sharp bit, like our friend and his crock of blarney on the 'presbyterian' pipes or whatever! A good story for some, but NOT good history.
BTW, it would be a particularly thick Irish nationalist who would begrudge a Scots Gaelic ancestry to the bagpipe: it was a highland instrument before it was adopted as a British emblem played by highland clans that were simply known to their English foe at one stage as 'The Irish'.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
Well I am a little late in this conversation. Reading the New York Times article I feel that, whilst the auther is clearly, as you would expect from his paper, relatively knowledgeable he has ultimately missed the point in modern nationalism, at least here in Scotland. There is not a claim from any of the nationalist parties here that Scotland should be Independent because the Scots are genetically different from the English. The idea would be proeposterous. There is no way that two countries that share a border could remain genetically particularly diverse. Ultimately the calls for Independence lie on cultural and economic grounds. It can be recognised that Scotland has different political and social aspirations and beliefs from those of England. If it was a mere matter of genetics then the Union would never be under the threat that the author claims.
Anyway in terms of the music, which is what we were initially talking about, I do have a strong interest in politics and history, being a history graduate, but I am not interested in the tunes from any political standpoint. There is a clear cultural identification that can lie with the traditional music of these countries but a political one would be to stretch the point somewhat. In terms of songs I like then many of these are influenced by political or cultural views of mine whether they be socialist or nationalist or something else entirely (as well as simply whether I like the song's tune), but that is because song lyrics can contain a clear social message. I like the tunes purely from the melodic and rhythmic properties. I do not claim I can play them better because I am Scottish or because my surname is Irish (as were some of my grandparents). I do not claim to have the music coursing through my blood due to unavoidable genetics - ideas like that fall to the ground when you consider some of the pap that other people who have as much, if not more, "Celtic blood" than me listen to. No I like the music because it is good - full stop.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Music & Politics?
Just to prove that I haven't gone mad, this is typical of the sort of thing I come across that gives me the impression that the British were brutally repressive regarding Ireland’s music.
"The Irish did not like being ruled by the English. They did not feel that Ireland was their own country. The English sometimes took Irish land and gave it to English settlers. They also had strict laws for the Irish. They tried to destroy Irish culture. One way they did this was by forbidding the Irish to speak Gaelic, their native language. They also made it illegal for Irish poets and musicians to practice their arts. The harp—Ireland's oldest and most loved instrument—was banned."
http://www.nald.ca/CLR/social/book6/book6.pdf
Here's another...
"In the 16th century, harpists would often join revolutionaries for much the same purpose. The British crown, in an effort to stifle the rebellion, banned Celtic harps and instructing their men to kill any harpist and destroy their instruments. They were infamously successful. By the beginning of the 19th century, thanks to British measures and the bankruptcy of the Irish aristocracy, traditional Celtic harp music had all but died out."
http://www.alltravelingkidsfamilyvacations.com/articles/celtic-harp-emerald-isle.html
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
Just found another interesting read here: http://www.visitireland.com/aboutireland/music.asp.
Don't see how it "embellishes" one's ability to play Irish music though. Sounds like bullsh1t to me, sorry.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Dow
Re: Music & Politics?
PB - your first link is from a Newfoundland site, isn't it? No idea the provenance other than that, so may be fine ...
The second is from one Deborah Felker, author of other fine articles such as "7 Lucky Charms That Make Perfect Irish Wedding Gifts" and "How to Pick an Irish Baby Name", wherein she shows her thorough understanding of Irish culture in the following classic quote:
"My personal search for the perfect Irish baby name began many years ago, when my husband and I found out we were going to be blessed with another daughter. We knew we wanted an Irish name for our baby girl so we would always remember the spiritual connection that we shared.
After all, it was from this bond that she was conceived. In those early days and nights of endless romance and passion, practically all we ever listened to was Enya and Riverdance!"
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Music & Politics?
Ben, I realize the second one was from a kid's webpage, but my point is that I'll see it and I'll also see corroboration elsewhere. I don't have any evidence beyond just running into the story randomly here and there.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
Ah. I probably misinterpreted you, then.
Still, it would be good if someone could point to some actual, authenticated history for this sort of stuff. Otherwise, potentially, it just adds to the 'rumours' and 'stories' that obscure and mythologise the hurt that *was* done over centuries, and adds little to our understanding of the history and development of the music on both sides of the Irish Sea.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Music & Politics?
That's why I'm asking, Ben. I would like to know once and for all because I keep running into it, and I see a correlation with what my friends from Chile and South America say about their country's history regarding their culture and music. For me part of the beauty of the music is the fact that it persevered despite the efforts to suppress it. I've always liked to think that it somehow attributed to its strength. For me the awareness of things of that sort is an embellishment to my enjoyment of it. And that's no bull.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
That whole history of the instrument thingy with bagpipes - I wonder, does an uilleann piper really get all patriotic when he's playing a bunch of reels. Does he get all gooey eyed & think of his fatherland & English oppression.
.... & I just wonder how many Highland Pipers think likewise about Scotland, when they rip through a selection?
OK I know it is interesting to know where instruments were developed but at this stage, are we ever going to know exactly the where, who & how of the development of these instruments? ... & if we did, will the political history of each really matter a jot to any musician who is playing them? I'm not convinced.
When I play the Fiddle, I personally don't get all patriotic for Italy, the country which perfected the Violin. When I play my Anglo Concertina I don't get all gooey eyed about possible German anscestry I may have, just because a German invented that instrument.
... & where does that leave Whistle players? .... who invented the Whistle? etc etc etc
I play music on each of the instruments I play because I love the sound those instruments make & I love the way Irish tunes are put together. I really enjoy hearing the way I play my tunes blending with other musicians as they play their instruments. I don't think of the recent or ancient politics of this or any other country when I play music, I think of the music.
The bottom line is .... if I'm not concentrating on the tune I am likely to mess up, so I clear my mind for that reason & for maximum enjoyment of the joy of playing.
Do some people here really try to spoil that joyfull process by cluttering their minds up with a load of old politics or history?
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
Some of the replies to this thread really make me wonder what some people think about when they're making love to a beautiful partner?
At the point of the orgismo thingy, I can just hear them shout ................. FOR KING & COUNTRY!
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
Brother Parmigiano, I think it may be time to extend your musings into another thread. To at least make it superficially relevant to this site, maybe call it something like "what do you think of when you play Toss the Feathers?"
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Music & Politics?
This thread is running out of steam, thank christ, but there is still a point of cause and effect I'd like to bring up:
Button says, "part of the beauty of the music is the fact that it persevered despite the efforts to suppress it. I've always liked to think that it somehow attributed to its strength."
This is not logical. It could equally be said that it was the music's beauty that gave it the strength to survive the oppression. And keep in mind that it's not just the oppression from the english, but the Irish also - as so brilliantly described by Flann O'Brian in Harry B's link above. I'll link it again, lest anyone didn't read it all:
http://www.setdance.com/archive/the_dance_halls.html
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Hi Phantom, I don't know about you but when someone tells me something in a pub or I read something in a newspaper or on the web, first thing I try and figure out is where said person is coming from, what their slant is. If I hear the same info. over and again and see it backed up in various sources over time then I assimilate it and I'm surer of it's validity. The world is full of people spinning this and that to their own ends - who can ever be certain where the truth lies
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Music & Politics?
I don't know about 'For King and Country', but I do occasionally find myself shouting YES-SSSS! on managing to get through a whole tune without fouling up.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by P-K
Re: Music & Politics?
Gaining historical accuracy is subtly different from historical validity. And this difference is particularly pertinent in the case of music and politics. A lot of people here have stated that Irish music's political history is not only of an interest to them, but a contributory factor in their enjoyment of it. This creates a self sustaining validity.
Societies have always promoted certain historical views over others and the politically active often (mis)use music as a promotional tool. As I said earlier, the notion to imbue music with political resonance is often a deliberate hijack of innocence. As this quote from visitireland.com (linked above by dow) illustrates, "they have taken old airs and wrote new lyrics to create a new song".
I am interested in the abstract nature of the instrumental music of Ireland, and how, despite centuries of attempts to attach all kinds of baggage (not just political), it remains one of the most pure examples of abstract art human beings have ever created.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Dear Barmy Tarmy,
I've played with all shades of 'orange' and 'green' and I honestly don't think that anyone that I've experienced has had a disorder approaching that which you seem keen to portray. I think the worst offenders here are the little nationalists in your head; which is every bit the 'crime' of inventing our own subjective realities when we play a few trifling tunes.
Want to see very clear manifestations of identity with music performance in Ireland? Look towards the pope kickers and their symbolism, regalia and general tone of practices.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
The more I learn about Irish geography, the more I realize how much the Irish people love their music. After all, nearly every town in the nation is named after the title of a tune!!!!!
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Music & Politics?
Some of those links were fairly flaky (not including the one about dance halls, that made very interesting reading). The one promoting Fantasy Ireland holidays gets me thinking:
Is there a medically recognised "Ireland Syndrome?"
I'll explain. There is a "Jerusalem Syndrome" which has over the years affected a number of visitors to that city, and is medically recognised. The affected person is usually young, and comes from a sheltered religious background. Confronted by the real place, he / she breaks down: often acquires Biblical clothing, and believes he / she is a scriptural character (Christians, Muslims and Jews are all I think affected),
,.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Music & Politics?
- Anyway, the person, often found weeping over the state of things, is taken off to the mental hospital, emerging after a few days in good shape to rejoin his / her party.
So, I wonder if there is an equivalent in people who have idealised a notion of Ireland / Dublin / Connemara / Donegal / Kerry / wherever, and couldn't hack what they found?
A rather silly post - but just an idea.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Music & Politics?
Actually, seriously, my Ma went on a family visit to Knock once, dressed in a navy blue skirt and a navy blue cardigan. She said it was just a coincidence and was a bit embarrassed, but I've always wondered.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
When I came to traditional music first it was most definitely an expression of my identity as an Irish person and in juxtaposition to the presence of British troops on the streets of Belfast.
I'm not saying that the tunes in and of themselves carry a specific political connotation but they are certainly an important part of the experience of things irish.
Much allusion has been made to the Orange Green dichotomy but I don't see that as particularly relevant as I have never seen the irish identity as being inextricably linked to religion in any way. The 'war' was about national self determination and not about religion.
There are, of course, thousandas of songs that are expressly political in their nature and these are important as a social commentary or history. Skibbereen, The Fields of Athenry, etc etc may be fadgy songs but they are none the less valid for that.
These songs help us to remember our history - perhaps they help us to understand how others who are oppressed feel. Maybe that's the reason why the irish are so generous when it comes to famine relief etc because the folk memeory is still stirred by the songs of the past.
I believe in the power of music to sooth the savage beast and am delioghted to dee that the music of our country is able to bring togther such diverse people as are found on this site and at the sessions all around the world. But in it's own geopolitical context the music did and does still carry a political overtone albeit political with a small 'p' these days.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by breandan
Re: Music & Politics?
So for you Breandan, it has a historic validity, as I described above?
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
"it remains one of the most pure examples of abstract art human beings have ever created." Please prove this. You've stated PB wasn't logical without telling him why, and you're making blanket statements to be taken as fact. Please be logical and factual. Prove that the music is abstract from the setting.
I don't think you'll have any luck proving this. It remains a matter of speculation at best, opinion at worst. Politics often shape music, both subtly and not so subtly. The fact that much of the influence was long ago and does not matter as much now does not mean that it was or is absent.
I don't like reviving this thread, but your assumption that the music came out of a vacuum and now exists in space, alone and divorced from the world seems a bit odd.
So if people like the music for reasons other than what you find acceptable, maybe that's not a bad thing.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Hmmm...while I'm at it, you've stated in the past that you don't care for tradition. Yet your whole musical hierarchy, your "right" and "wrong" playing depends on it. Without a basis of tradition, everything boils down to taste and aesthetics. You can't claim any kind of superiority: violin does the ornaments better? Which ornaments? Why not nifty new ones performed on a synthesizer?
If you throw out tradition, it's all a matter of taste. You certain you want to go there?
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
'Abstract' is a very relative value.
Music could be said to be a more abstract expression than language, but then certain music could be said to be more universally communicative than some of the more demanding modern poetry. The values are determined by the relative appreciations of both modes of expression, and the receiving person's cultural and personal experiences.
Certainly, to a people who live/lived in communities that had music traditions as an integral part of their daily existence, the music was not 'abstract' as I think most people understand it, albeit *relatively* abstract compared to, say, everyday speech. Although 'abstact' could easily be implied on the situation by those who perform truly abstract practices such as sociology or ethnomusicology study etc... Colonial history also has/had a wonderfully predictable way of pigeon holing integral facets of native culture in a way that rendered them as abstract. When you think your values are superior it is easy to misrepresent other people's experience both intentionally and otherwise.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
Humans creating abstract art is hardly a vacuum. It was, is and will be created. Most abstract art is deeply personal, created individually. Not from a vacuum, but from the isolation of the individual. Diddley music is different, it is the collective creation of many generations.
How can I prove it's abstract? Difficult this but how about an experiment. Get a number of tunes, tunes say with descriptive titles like "the gander in the pratiie hole", "the kid on the mountain", "Heathery Breeze", "Drag her round the road" etc. Find someone who is unfamiliar with the music and try to get them to guess the title.
And I thought I was quite clear with the logic:
Premise -
The music has persevered despite the efforts to suppress it.
PB's Conclusion -
"I've always liked to think that it somehow attributed to its strength" (I think he meant "contributed" but he can clear that up)
But, it could equally be said that it was the music's strength in the first place that allowed it to persevere.
And I've agreed above that politics often interferes with music, but shape it? no.
I've been thinking about Beethoven's Eroica. He dedicated it to Napoleon then famously scratched out the dedication. But did he change even one note of the music?
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
What music title could be guessed in any form of music? How does that prove it is abstract? The form of the music is what proves it is abstract or not. I don't find that the form dictates abstraction, rather it seems to follow more specific rules and modes. Further, this is community music, obviously shaped by community. Politics influences community.
Abstraction in any art form comes about as a deliberate effort. The abstract art movement was a deliberate shift. Abstraction in jazz music the same. Otherwise it is a part and parcel of the culture. You may not like the baggage and associations that accompany it, but that hardly means that it doesn't exist.
You might successfully argue that the political and social nature that gave rise to the music is no longer as relevant, but not that it doesn't or didn't exist.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
I use the word abstract in the strict artistic definition of the word. Where the created forms are nonrepresentational. Where the internal structures only refer to one another within the piece, or in this case, within the tradition.
The description of practices such as sociology or ethnomusicology being abstract is different. These "fields" take tangible real stuff and attempt to measure, quantify, pigeon hole and label them into abstracted categories.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
And again, that is a good thing. Without the tradition, political and otherwise, there is no reason not to drag synthesizers to sessions. I can program my synth to do any ornament you like, from rolls to crans to a high-hat drum solo. It's out of respect as to where the music comes from that help bind certain aspects of taste.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
But they are representational. You might abstract them yourself, but many of the tunes that we have origins for were composed for specific things and events. They may not have the same connotations for you, but that doesn't mean they are abstract. You simply abstract them from their original reference. Others may choose not to do so.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Michael, I don't see much difference between the two words in the context of how I meant it. Here are two definitions; can you tell me which is which without looking it up?
a) to be one of the factors that causes something
b) to regard somebody or something as having part
Anyway, I never implied that it's the only factor, or that the political historical relationship was the prominent feature for me. It's just something I enjoy thinking about. Not while I'm playing, but rather when I'm just thinking about the music as it relates to Ireland, it's history, and it's relationship to the world. But that's just me -- I'm very political. If you aren't then it's not likely you would reflect on the music the way I do. I'm sure you have your own interests that may or may not relate to the music, or perhaps you just want the music to exist in a vacuum. That's cool -- to each his own.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
Yes, now we're getting somewhere. The form of the music is what proves it is abstract or not. I'm arguing that because the internal structures of diddley tunes only refer to themselves and the other tunes within the tradition, that they are abstract.
And yes, one of its great beauties is that it is community music. Communities of musicians who create abstract music. Deliberately
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Mr. Gill states that the music is abstract-when I believe he means it may be abstracted: it may exist without the previous associations that have been attached to it. That may well be true, but many find the history and meaning of tunes to be more meaningful than playing the music "out of context." That is an individual decision.
Proving that it came about independently of those conditions would be a tall order, and likely an impossible one. Name any form of music that arose independently of the social and political conditions around it. There really isn't any such thing. The most basic student of cultural anthropology will grasp that.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Well, then prove that the tunes are only self-referencing. Some of the titles suggest otherwise. You might remove the title, or call it something else, but it still arose from that context.
The music is currently becoming more abstracted from it's origins, just as blues and jazz and classical music has done. That does not make it abstract. The best blues players will give a nod towards the original makers of the music.
And again, you ignore the dangers of abstraction. Wait until somebody shows up with a tuba at your session. "it's all abstract, mate. No real rules then."
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
You miss the definition. Nothing within the actual music itself refers to any of the associations that have been attached to it. Of course it didn't come about independently of anything. We are going round in circles. I say that there is nothing within the artform itself that betray any of it's origins other than musical ones. That's what I mean by abstract
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
How can music specifically reference anything without lyrics? Any music? It all becomes a matter of interpretation at some point. That hardly means it is abstract. It may be abstracted. And you choose to do so. Others may well find more meaning by looking at the origin of the tune and how it came about. There's nothing wrong with that.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Michael is right - from his point of view, which is one I have a certain amount of sympathy for but don't necessarily agree with. The original inspiration for a tune eg, "I Have No Money" may been poverty but that is expressed as an abstraction, ie a Dmajor tune in 4/4 time. Anything you want to attach to it, eg the motive for composing it, its composer and so on, are just that. Attachments. No politics. Totally different from "The Soldier's Song" a song with a political message.
Gw'an michael!
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
Some music is deliberately onomatopeic, this is not abstract. A lot of music has words, you understand that. The stuff that is left, the majority is abstract. Now we finally really are getting somewhere. And quite right, if you require more meaning by looking at the origin and how it came about, there's nothing wrong with that.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Politics?
Some people do require more meaning, or at least get more out of it. And you have yet to acknowledge the dangers of a purely abstract music. Divorce ITM, diddly or whatever you call it from the origins, and how do you justify it being played in the conservative manner we all know and love? It comes down to taste. I don't like that idea very much. Bongos and synthesizers will have every bit as much justification as pipes and flutes.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
If you require more meaning that is a personal preference. Eg, I like to delve into the history of tunes etc, micheal doesn't. Fair enough. But he is right in saying music is abstract, cos that's what it is. A song comprises of words...and *music*....that's the abstract tune bit. End of argument.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
Harry, now that recent post of yours, which was directed at me, would be funny Ha Ha if it wasn't just bizarre & insulting!
If you go back to the thread, you'll see it was actually Dan who put forward this notion that folks think about political stuff when they play & Button who said his knowledge of Irish Politics enhances his enjoyment of his playing.
I never said there was anything wrong with their particular approach to their music, I fully support their right to enjoy it in whichever way they like. This thread was a simple exploration of how different folks enjoyed their music & an investigation into the many sorts of baggage which people may attach to the music, in their pursuit of their enjoyment of it. I have constantly said how I DON'T think of politics when I play ..... must I say it again?
I have actually spent a whole thread wondering how these thoughts actually enhance or improve the playing experience, while pointing out, over & over again that I play simply because I like the sound of the little tunes & then you come out with your last post? Very strange indeed - I really wonder where you get these ideas from?
For example:
"I play music on each of the instruments I play because I love the sound those instruments make & I love the way Irish tunes are put together. I really enjoy hearing the way I play my tunes blending with other musicians as they play their instruments. I don't think of the recent or ancient politics of this or any other country when I play music, I think of the music."
Could I say it any more clearly than that.... & yet? ... still you come out with crap like - I've got "little nationalists" in my head!
Where do these ideas of yours spring from Harry?
Have you actually read any of my posts above?
From your last response it doesn't look like it!
I have noticed that when you join a thread I happen to be on, you very often introduce expressions like "Orange & Green", make snide, insulting remarks which are clearly intended to aggravate & annoy - like: "I think the worst offenders here are the little nationalists in your head ..." & produce utter & downright sectarian sh*t like - "Look towards the pope kickers and their symbolism, regalia and general tone of practices.", the latter being introduced by you presumably to infer that I am one, a part of, or a member of that particular group of ar$eholes up here!
Apart from being grossly insulting & completely & utterly way off the mark, it is, or should be, beneath you Harry, to lower yourself to such behaviour. Have you not seen enough of that particular brand of mud-slinging, while growing up in the North, without resorting to it yourself on this friendly little music forum?
This constant slander from you is clearly designed to insinuate that I am some sort of anti-Nationalist & from where I’m sitting, is totally uncalled for, apart from being way off the mark, but then of course my own politics are really none of your business. I don't imagine for one minute that anyone else reading my posts will have come up with this preposterous conclusion to my thread or posts.
No doubt you think you are being very amusing by posting such insults Harry, but may I draw your attention to a thread Button posted here a while back, on how he felt that some people should be making more of an effort to clean up their act, while on this forum & try to refrain from blatantly insulting others. Perhaps you should go back & read that thread Harry.
I know some folks get very emotional when politics crop up here, but let's try & conduct ourselves in a civilised, adult manner, shall we?
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
Getting back to the topic itself:
I must admit I am attracted to llig's idea that Irish Music could possibly be - "one of the most pure examples of abstract art, human beings have ever created."
That's not to say that there is anything wrong with anyone attaching any baggage of any sort to the music, we are all entitled to enjoy it in our own way, as long as our way doesn't interfere with how others around us enjoy their music. I attach geographical memories sometimes, or past session memories, or past tutor memories etc etc
However, are there not dangers in the notion that you can't fully enjoy the playing of Irish music unless you are fully conversant with the history, politics & geography of Ireland.
Have we not had absolutely preposterous postings here in the past, on how only those born in Ireland or those of Irish blood could possibly be any good at it, or be fully capable of playing &/or fully understanding Irish Music!
Now those ideas really are BARMY!
I'm sure we have all seen folks from every corner of the globe who are absolutely brilliant players.
We are all entitled to enjoy this music in our own way, perhaps as this thread finally runs out of steam, we can all accept that there is quite simply more than one way to skin the ITM Cat.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
"I use the word abstract in the strict artistic definition of the word. Where the created forms are nonrepresentational. Where the internal structures only refer to one another within the piece, or in this case, within the tradition.
The description of practices such as sociology or ethnomusicology being abstract is different. These "fields" take tangible real stuff and attempt to measure, quantify, pigeon hole and label them into abstracted categories."
Hiya,
So the forms are not representitive of *something* else? Seems quite materialist and cold to me, and, like empirical science, it seperates creative human spirit from the experience of creation and from a totality, you know, abstractly.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
"I know some folks get very emotional when politics crop up here, but let's try & conduct ourselves in a civilised, adult manner, shall we?"
Who seems to be getting emotional? Do you deny that there are loyalist Flute bands who don't openly sport the slogan "Kick the Pope"? Am I really being sectarian for pointing out this fact?
I'm sorry, Tarmy, but the rest is just rehashed material from your already overlong posts. No offence intended, but its interesting to see your reaction when I attack a certain strain of sectarian biggots who, frankly, don't belong in the modern world unless they get their act together (maybe we could find them an island off the coast of Cuba or something and let the extremes of 'Orange' and 'Green' fight it out in a place where they are not confined by the laws and common sense of society).
You do seem to infer more from my posts than I intend to infer though, which is also interesting.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
"Do you deny that there are loyalist Flute bands who don't openly sport the slogan "Kick the Pope"? Am I really being sectarian for pointing out this fact?" .... Yes, it might be argued so, when you insist on introducing them into this particular thread!
Can you tell us what you see as the connection between these players [ & their T Shirts ] & the musicians here who are discussing the playing of traditional Irish Music?
Do you believe anyone here is really interested in these religious & political bigots & pray tell, what do you see as the connection between these eejits & the musicians here who are discussing their own enjoyment of Irish Music?
Sorry if my post seemed overlong to you, forgive me, but as you clearly don't appear to understand where I'm coming from, I felt I had to labour my point.
You are, I suppose, entitled to rabbit on about these sectarian biggots, as is your wont, if you must, but I just don't see how dragging these, or any other mindless morons, into this particular discussion, enhances it one bit.
Do you honestly regard them as serious musicians?
If not, then perhaps we could just ignore them eh ....... who knows, if we do, they might just go away!
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
Ptarm says: "Button who said his knowledge of Irish Politics enhances his enjoyment of his playing."
Uh... no... I said it was an embellishment to my enjoyment of the music. No one enjoys my playing.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Music & Politics?
Must admit that I also infer more into Harry's posts, and come to the same conclusions as Ptarm.
Politics cannot "shape" music, unless something obvious like a slow air (Roisin Dubh) or a lament. A tune or a classical piece could be about, or inspired, by anything. You would need to know the history of the composer and why she/he composed that particular piece or tune. Many tunes are inspired by political events, but the music is not shaped by the events. Politics however would shape a lot of songs, because songs have words and thankfully can be used as a form of propaganda.
However, politics in Ireland, and history, quite often shapes why many start playing the music, especially among the diaspora as I explained some 100 posts ago.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Music & Politics?
My mistake Button, ah well, I was close - but hey, is that you fishing for compliments again? Now I'm sure you didn't get where you are today in the SF scene, without being able to put on a good show or entertain with an excellent musical performance! So less of the modesty eh!
N.B. In case anyone is in any doubt, that SF by the way was for San Francisco, not Sinn Féin. Although I've no doubt Gerry & Martin etc would be impressed by Button's digital dexterity on ye olde *Constant Screamer*!
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
Aye Bliss, songs are of course a completely different kettle of fish but I'm not so sure the tunes themselves would actually be inspired by political events, is it not more likely that someone just happens to come up with a catchy wee tune in their head, & then has to think of a name that people might actually remember.
P.S. That's a relief Bliss, I can cancel my appointment with my local shrink now - I was afraid it was only me!
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Music & Politics?
First, it is abstract only in terms that it MAY be abstract. It does not follow that it IS abstract. The tune may be abstracted or not. It may exist on its own ( a rather cold way of looking at tune) or more likely exists within a framework and a context of both other tunes and the people playing them.
The people playing them may not find them abstract at all, but relational to other things. Just to say "this is abstract" is meaningless. Tunes arose, either for specific reasons or "just a name to a catchy tune." In either case they arose through circumstances particular to certain regions. This music did not independently occur sans culture. Politics derives from culture.
This isn't metaphysics, this is practical. The tunes must be both in relation to other tunes and to those playing them, and hopefully within SOME sort of context. Loose the context and then the music is a free-for-all.
I don't agree that the tunes are political in nature, but it seems disingenuous to suggest that politics had no part in the shaping of the music. Further, it would be impossible to prove. It is as ridiculous to suggest that they must be political as to suggest that the Irish culture didn't give rise to the music. Extremes have a nasty way of not making much sense.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Why is there an increasing tendency for people on here to say "sans" rather than "without"? Does it save on letters?Nearly as bad as that "ITM" abbreviation.
Anyway, although you speak with great certainty, I disagree. But it probably comes down to some preferred way of viewing all this. In my view, a tune IS abstract, or, IS an abstraction. The playing (or dare I say it, performing) of a tune is not. It's a human physical effort to get a series of sound waves out some yoke. Even if you were to posit that the process of *thinking* about a tune - neurons and synapses firing etc - was a physical phenomenon (which would be true) the *tune* itself is an abstraction. That's my point.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
Shakespeare used "sans". Fairly traditional, I'd have thought.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Music & Politics?
Yeah and he also used "thou" and several other "traditional" words.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
Where does "Toss the Feathers", suggested by Llig, come from? Is it political, and remember to me, a pint of beer is political to the extent that in 1936 it cost the same as a loaf of bread. You can get a loaf for 50p, beer is £2.45. Why?
The answer is "politics".
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Music & Politics?
But this is music, and the playing of music, which is not an abstraction. You can, as I have repeatedly said, make it abstract from anything. Your choice. But it was not necessarily composed as abstract music or absolute music. Many composers imbued some meaning in their creation. You can view it with or without that attached meaning.
Practically, this means that it is not abstract. It is TRADITIONAL. It should be played in a traditional manner with traditional instruments. It exists within the context of the MUSIC, ITM, diddley, or whatever you call it. Anything else and you have a music that is abstract and therefore separate from it's roots, and therefore not subject to the playing that makes it traditional.
No, you don't have to immerse yourself in the politics or whatever to play and appreciate. Stating that they were irrelevant to the creation is absurd. As is getting petty about "sans."
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Petty or whatever, I was merely registering my diregard for the word. Anyway, I get your points, including warning us of the "dangers" of abstracting too much, yes, fair enough, but I'm not sure you've got mine. What's the difference between two tunes, eg The Bucks of Oranmore and O'Dowds #2? Totally different arrangement of notes etc. That's what makes them different tunes. That's the core. Everything else - tunes' origins, their performance, everything, that hangs on them, is just that - epiphenomena hanging around the outside. So, to give the converse of your thesis, in PRACTICAL terms, it is that uniqueness of a particular tune that gives that tune its "life". That's why someone might say after you've played a nice tune, "Jees, what's the name of that last tune there? that's a mighty tune"
If you can't see it now I don't know how else to convey this.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
Oh. BTW Bliss, so therefore everything is political, I guess is what you're trying to say. What about a supernova in some distant galaxy? Don't tell me that was Maggie Thatcher's fault? Or whoever was the Tory Prime Minister when it occurred.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
Hmm - a lot of interesting stuff here.
Yes - I think that the song and the music has historical validity.
Sirely whoever wrote the hornpipe " Daniel O'Connell's Welcome to Parliament' had a political motive.
Bliss cites Roisin Dubh as potentially political but that is because it is the air of a song that can only be described as republican in nature. Roisin Dubh being the musical embodiment of Ireland.
Haryy is right to point out the lonney fringe of the loyalists since they use music as a specifically anti catholic tool. There is none of that hatred, bigotry or sectarianism in the irish tradition - at least not that I have experienced.
I have played diddley dee since I was about 12, my first paid gig was when I was just dhort of 16 and it was at the Easter Commemoration do for Sinn fein in Belfast's Green Briar. I have played in 'republican' folk groups, supported the hunger strikers by playing tunes at fund raisers, played at an anti aprtheid concert in the Royal Albert Hall but I do not see the tunes as elitist in the sense that I will welcome anyone into the session regardless of politics or religion.
I remember playing tunes in a band with policemen [RUC] and members of the Police Authority and never gave it a second thought BUT for me, the music IS political because it expresses my identity as an Irish man. I accept that for many it is merely a form of music which is either abstract or can be abstracted. For me it is part and parcel of who and what I am.
To me the music speaks of place, of family, of fun, of culture, of Ireland, of friends, of getting sh*t faced, of enjoying life, of escaping. These are probably more important that the role of the music in the politics of Ireland and I am ok with that.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by breandan
Re: Music & Politics?
A what? Sounds scientific, I am into politics, you know, real people, real life. A supernova? Sorry, I have heard of super duper, but not that one.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Music & Politics?
Que?
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by breandan
Re: Music & Politics?
oh, so a supernova isn't real, then?
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
Dalek, I can see it, but the argument posited by Michael Gill was that it was necessarily abstract. It does not have to be, and I do not espouse any extreme views. The tune may stand nicely on its own, or be part of a larger context depending on the participant. Gill seemed to be implying that the tunes arose almost mystically, divorced from the daily and political life of the Irish. Now they stand abstracted, without meaning other than self-referential. Then he derided other's logic for contending that they might have other meaning than the strictly abstract.
Yeah, right. Taking the view that it's all abstract by necessity is really just a bunch of mental masturbation. Politics shapes everything in society. Try proving it doesn't. Doesn't mean one has to embrace or immerse yourself in the politics. Just play the tunes.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
"Everything else - tunes' origins, their performance, everything, that hangs on them, is just that - epiphenomena hanging around the outside. So, to give the converse of your thesis, in PRACTICAL terms, it is that uniqueness of a particular tune that gives that tune its "life"."
It is also the similarity between the two that make it "Irish" or "Traditional." You can disregard the origins, but it seems disrespectful and crass. These tunes did not originate in a vacuum. Their composers lead real lives, and it was their culture that formed the music.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Or, to put it another way, you don't have to learn Japanese to learn karate. But if you just learn the kicks and punches, you may be an effective fighter. But you haven't learned karate. Without the etiquette, the nod towards the origins, it's just fighting. Fine if that's what you're after.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
My goodness, but you've a subtle way of being extremely abusive even if you don't know it yourself. Especially for someone with Tao in their username. So far you've managed to call us extreme, petty, absurd, w@nkers, and challenged us to prove something.
It is posiible to get your points across without resorting to belittling tactics you know.
Oh, and:
>Politics shapes everything in society. Try proving it doesn't
....easy. No it doesn't. The human genome shapes much of human behaviour, which then has a part in shaping society. Oh and what about that recent tsunami? And other natural phenomena. They've helped to shape some societies for better or worse.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
"Can you tell us what you see as the connection between these players [ & their T Shirts ] & the musicians here who are discussing the playing of traditional Irish Music?"
Well, Tarmy, I have a rather inclusive view of 'Irish traditional music'; to me it includes all traditions of music played on the island of Ireland, such as self styled 'orange' flute bands (who, and I remember correctly, had 'Kick the Pope' written on their bass drums, not their tee shirts).
The conections between the music played by them and the music played by the musicians here is quite organic; it didn't/ doesn't exist in the cultural exclusion zones that some would like to think it did/does. I see it as an important document of the historical realities of this island and of this island's wider cultural hinterlands.
Dumb it down if it makes you feel better, but don't expect me or others to follow suit in any such unrealistic cultural revisionism.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
I do know it, thank you. For somebody that called me on the perfectly normal "sans", your view seems a bit...angry. I don't think that I'm "extremely abusive." If I have been, I feel certain Jeremy will call me on it.
And tao is slightly more complicated that the usual new-age version. Their is a tao to martial arts and various other forms of ritualized violence. It simply means "path" or "way."
I have challenged EXTREMISTS to prove their point, which cannot be done. And I can't seem to recall calling anybody a w@nker lately. So unless you are positing that the music is necessarily abstract, then you really have no cause to be angry with me.
The human genome...shapes people. People shape culture. Culture shapes politics. I don't think you can remove the political element. And the tsunami has already spawned some music lamenting the event. I wouldn't play it and suggest it was simply abstract music. That was my point. I don't recall ever saying it was all political. Politics played a part.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
Kick the pope bands are cultural. Peter Mandelson must have posted that.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Music & Politics?
Culture, in the 'right' hands, can be oh so very 'wrong'.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
Not angry at all, just very mildly bemused. I've already said my thing about sans. You said mental *masturbation*, & that equals w@nker over here.
You are now trumpetting that you've successfully challenged what you refer to as extremists to prove a point. Good for you.
You're still wrong about politics shaping everything in society.
(That IS what you said.) Another example - inventions and technological progress, such as cars, clean drinking water, industrialisation, all that. They've shaped society as well. It seems to me if they have any effect at all, political systems merely expedite technological "progress".
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Music & Politics?
Insert heavy sigh...it does shape everything. As does everything else. Your own example about the genome...it shapes the human form, but other factors shape it as well, nutrition and amputation to name two. I did not say it was the only shaping factor. It does shape everything...but it is not the only shaping event. Don't hang your hat on the fact "politics shapes everything."
Further, please read my posts in context. I said it does not necessarily need to be abstracted, not that it could not be abstracted. Are you stating that it is necessarily abstract? No? Then I wasn't referring to you. Please re-read, then I will await my lavish apology
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Music & Politics?
"political systems merely expedite technological "progress".
Yes, unionist dominated politics has done wonders for the piano accordeon in Ireland... anyone here for a benevolent (fiddle playing) fascist dictatorship?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on March 14th 2007 by Harry B
Re: Music & Politics?
>Politics shapes everything in society
- That's what you said, a few posts above.
>Insert heavy sigh
- Now that type of patronising phrase *does* get me resentful. Especially from someone who has proved nothing that they claimed they have.
I have read your posts, it seems, better than you have read them yourself. Of course I am not stating this music is by necessity abstract but I am saying the abstract element is an essential - very essential - component. And with that I'm off to bed.
# Posted on March 14th 2007