I have been playing low whistle for 2 years and I really take up playing ITM seriously this year. I play in a session every month and I try to learn as many tunes as I can.
This year I decided to memorize all tunes in my tunebook because I don't want to bring my sheets at the session (don't make fun of me I know I am probably the only person in the world to play at sessions with sheets in front of me...) and I don't want to bother the other musicians anymore.
So when I started learning by heart my tunes I realized it was more easy for me to memorize modern tunes (such as Farewell To Whalley Range, maple leaf or Clapton Jig) than typical trad tunes. In my opinion modern tunes sound much better than trad tunes. They are more tuneful and moreover the audience like them.
Reading this forum I found out that many musicians here don't like modern tunes at all. Each time someone is asking for the name of a modern tune (thanks to youtube) there is always some crabby traditional musician criticizing the tune.
So here are my questions :
Explain me why you don't like modern tunes ?
Is it worthwhile memorizing these tunes for a session ? or is it useless because ITM musicians don't like them ?
I like playing ITM but sometimes it becomes repetitive and I want to play something new. Something which would be the future of the irish music ....
ha ha, if this is a wind up, it's a cracker. But if it's not, I'll try to reply politely:
Basically, in saying you prefer modern tunes to old tunes, you are simply saying you don't like traditional irish music. That's fine, you don't have to like it. But the question irises, what are you doing here?
Michael is right - traditional music is what it is and there's no old or modern. Just because Maurice Lennon composed The Master's Daughter or Stone of Destiny just a few years ago doesn't make them modern, they fit perfectly into the traditional idiom. On the other hand if some of the newly composed offerings we often hear that are lacking in melody, contain off-beats or sound East European, just because they are played by traditional musicians on accepted traditional instruments, it doesn't make them traditional.
I would say that joining a session is were music meets politics and social etiquette. Always good to be humble, respectful and join in gracefully. You say you play with them once a month. Maybe you should find some other folks and do some modern stuff once a month, too. Then you have your bases covered.
Trying to introduce modern stuff is like thinking you're going to get you spouse to change after you marry 'em.
John Hartford once said that in Old Time jams in the US, folks would play their newly written songs and just say they "heard" this piece somewhere, but they can't remember where. Then they would play it.
"A lot of people (well, some) are annoyed by my musical tastes. I just love playing the really cool, weird, modern tunes that never really get played in sessions, sometimes in irregular time signatures and stuff. I'm sorry, but they're such fun.
My favourite band has to be Lúnasa (Kevin Crawford kinda rocks)
And my favourite soloist is OBVIOUSLY Mike McGoldrick!"
"I want a debate. No narrow-minded answers please"
I don't understand, you want to debate why you don't like traditional Irish music? That's not a debate. The music is there for you to discover or to disregard, It's entirely up to you. Trying to have a conversation with people who have a completely different level of understanding than you would be futile. You are not going to get anywhere near understanding it by talking about it.
It's sessions themselves that tend to be conservative (I'll add, I'm middle-aged and so are the ITM sessions I go to). If you bring a new tune to a session and launch into it on your own, it's pretty likely no-one else will pick up the ball and run with it - all the more if you're new to the session. The test is, If you like the tune so much, are you prepared to practise and play it completely on your own, on the off-chance that somewhere way down the line of time someone else might hear and appreciate it? I get the impression that's how some of the old players kept up their music, before Irish trad music became acceptable / fashionable / taken seriously.
I thought this music was about to be "humble and respectful" as nofrets said. When I read your answers llig I feel anger. I didn't say I don't like ITM by the way.
"Trying to have a conversation with people who have a completely different level of understanding than you would be futile."
That's the funniest sentence I ever read. According to me it is a narow-minded reaction. You seem like you don't want to share your experience. It's a pity for foreigner beginers like me (I'm french) who want to learn ITM or want to know the opinion of native musicians like you...
But I think you miss something with Michael McGoldrick. His "new" music is where it is today because of his absolute grasp of traditional music. The argumant should not be polarized. If you asked McGoldrick wheth?
So his "new music" is bound with ITM. Because he grasped ITM he was able to write new tunes inspired by the old one. In a way you admit new tunes could be mix with ITM tunes because they are bound...
I am quite sure McGoldrick would say he liked them both and probably does not really distinguish old and new - they are all part of the same tradition.
Essentially he, like most of us is "looking for music that makes his shoulders move" - who cares if it was written in 2007 or 1707.
crabby? what the f?ck you mean, crabby? seems like if a newer tune is good it's because it's got a lot of some old tunes in it somewhere. crabby? mutter, muttre............mudder?
of course, the best new tunes are bound to the tradition and will survive because of this. And most of the worst of the old ones have died (unfortunately, a hell of a lot of s h i t old ones survive because people with no taste play them, but I digress)
Or do I digress? Maybe one of the reasons a lot of s h i t new tunes get played just because of no taste
"They are more tuneful and moreover the audience like them." - Ah, so you are a performer Ralex! That might explain your attitude
But seriously, would you like to estimate how many old & ancient traditional ITM tunes have been forgotten about over the past 200 years, quite simply because they were €rap?
Better not to think in terms of old tunes & new tunes ................. but rather, simply in terms of good tunes & bad ones!
You say too that you find some old trad tunes repetitive. Well I must admit, I find that some of the gimmicky little syncopated phrases in some of the modern tunes just don't stand up to repeated exposure & can very quickly become irritating indeed.
The tunes we regard today as old trad have stood the test of time. In 50 years time I'm sure some of the tunes being composed & played today will still be getting their turn in the sessions, but I'm also convinced that many will have blown away like so much chaff!
Why don't I like modern tunes as much as the older ones?
You have to realize that a lot of "traditional" tunes were composed in the twentieth century anyway.
Why don't I like tunes that are brand, spanking, shiny new?
Lack of history. Part of the appeal of playing Irish music - for me, anyway - is playing something and thinking, "This is the same music that fought English oppression." "This is the same music that brought the Irish spirit to America." "This is the same music that created and bound a community in America." "This is the same music that saved Ireland's morale from complete collapse." "This is the same music that Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford and Padraig o'Keefe played." "This is the same music a thousand nameless masters before me played." There's a connection to something greater that makes the music meaningful.
"seems like if a newer tune is good it's because it's got a lot of some old tunes in it somewhere"
I agree with you Dont. That's why I don't understand why a lot of people blame new tunes and don't want to play them at session. New tunes have a bond with ITM however traditional musicians aren't fond of them (that's why I used "crabby"). There is a paradox ...
$hit Dan, I try my best not to cloud my playing enjoyment with a load of old political bo££ocks when I play, I just like the sound of the music.
At one of the sessions here, we can have English Northumbrian Pipes, Irish Uilleann Pipes & Scottish Border & Scottish Smallpipes all round the same table.
Gordon Bennett, if we were all thinking politics when we played, the bar would probably be awash with blood by the end of the night!
They're just pretty little melodies, with fancy wee twiddly bits to give the vain performers amongst us an opportunity to show off - nothing more!
For example, for years people tagged a load of political bu££4hit onto Frank McCollam's - 'The Home Ruler' when the fact is ...... he wrote it for his wife.
"This is the same music that fought English oppression." "This is the same music that brought the Irish spirit to America." "This is the same music that created and bound a community in America." "This is the same music that saved Ireland's morale from complete collapse."
It is an interesting answer. It is excatly what I wanted to read. Thank you Dan the Man. I agree and understand there is more history background behind an old tune and that's you prefer old tunes because the music is "meaningful" as you said...
Some of the best tunes considered 'traditional' were composed in the last 50 years and so are in effect 'modern', many tunes by Ed Reavy, Paddy Fahey, Charlie Lennon, Tommy Peoples, Liz Carroll and so on are played so often that people think they are ancient and don't realise how modern they are. Yet if you compare the best of these tunes to ones in the old collections you will see that these tunes have something new or different about them without being gimmicky, they have a combination of soul, inventiveness and respect for the tradition.
These are the modern tunes I love and the ones I think will last.
Ralex, From your description it seems the tunes you like are the trendy tunes which have some kind of popiness to them, these tunes are fine for a while but very few of them will last.
Also complaining about the repetitiveness of the old tunes is like complaining about the religiousness of the Pope. Repetition is essential to creating a certain feeling in trad, my sense is that you haven't been really listening properly to Irish music and you probably haven't really experienced a great session. Years ago I used to think it was all very repetitive but now I understand that good trad is never repetitive in a dull way. The use of repetition is essential and it is the subtle variations around this repetition which can give the music such a lift.
Since you've only been playing for 2 years and seem to be concentrating on Lunasa type trad it's understandable that you haven't learnt to fully appreciate the 'old' trad, but without wanting to sound patronising I think the more you learn about the tradition the more you will move away from trendy trad, that's what's happened to me and lots of others I know. When I first got into trad I loved jazzy, synchopated chords and all that lark, now, with a few notable exceptions, it makes me cringe!
I'd start off with artists who are rooted firmly in the tradition, but considered to be very influential in the development of ITM since the 70s revival. Try any solo, duo, or trio albums by Matt Molloy - they should be traditional enough to satisfy 'old trad' requirements, and new enough to prevent complete dissatisfaction. If you want to learn flute from recordings, it's best to avoid large ensemble arrangements: they tend to make individual subtleties somewhat indistinct. 'In Good Company', by Kevin Crawford, is pretty traditional, I seem to recall. 'A Clare Conscience', by Aidan MacMahon and Anthony Quigney, is a lovely, 'pure drop' style album recorded recently. I play fiddle, so I can't really recommend that much flute music off the top of my head, but if you have a listen to these sort of albums, you should get a good idea of what kind of interesting new things can be done in a very 'old', traditional style. These artists play old tunes primarily, yet they bring something incredibly fresh to their recordings. Lots of people start listening to large ensembles like Lunasa, and then begin to develop an attraction for a purer, small session-like sound. Give the old-style sound a chance, and before you know it, you'll be listening to scratchy old recordings from the 30s and 40s, and you'll be able to see what everyone who's been playing for a few years is going on about. Good luck.
Well Ralex, I'm glad you are open minded enough to ask me to recommend some 'old''' trad CD's to you, I'll recommend a few things to you now but please don't distinguish between 'old' and 'new' trad, as I said in my post there are lots of great new tunes, they just have a certain style that means they might be considered 'old'.
So as for CD's, I think you will have to do a very gradual listening to begin to appreciate the more pure 'older' style Irish music.
If you haven't heard The Bothy Band they are probably a good place to start. Their album 'Out of The Wind and Into The Sun' is great and it probably inspired Lunasa. Their Live CD 'Afterhours' is also great.
Once you've heard the Bothy Band you'll be well prepared to try out some more stripped down trad. Maybe try the following albums in this order.
Paddy Glackin (with Donal Lunny) - In Full Spate - a good mix of old tunes, great fiddle playing and some more modern arrangement techniques.
Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill - Live in Seattle - a great album which is both modern and ancient sounding, one of the best 'pure' fiddle and guitar albums out there.
Andy Irvine and Paul Brady - This album is a real classic with some fine examples of Irish songs.
None of those albums would be considered completely pure old style trad, so once you've got used to them then you could try the following recent CD's which are just beautiful examples of pure trad played in modern times.
Mick Ó'Brien and Caoimhín Ó'Raghallaigh - Kitty Lie Over - This is mosty just fiddle and pipes and it is really magical it is many peoples favourite trad CD of the last few years.
Breda Keville - The Hop Down - This may take some getting used to if you are only used to Lunasa type trad, but it is really one of the most soulful, emotional trad recordings I've ever heard. It is mostly solo fiddle, the playing is generally at a very easy pace and some of the tuning is what some might consider 'out of tune', but it really isn't out of tune, it is in the old Irish tuning where certain notes are a bit flat compared to what we think of as 'in tune' today. Once you get used to it you can really feel the special sound of the style of East Galway and Paddy Fahey.
Harry Bradley - Bad Turns and Horse-Shoe Bends
This is a brilliant album of flute playing from Harry Bradley, who often contributes intelligent comments to this website. It's pure and simple but complex and innovative at the same time!
After that if you like what you've heard then go explore the old recordings of John Doherty, Willy Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Michael Coleman and so on. After all that if you still prefer the trendy trad stuff then I'm afraid you just don't really like 'traditional' Irish music, you like 'Celtic World' music!
If you think like that Dan, stick with the Wolfe Tones and their ilk would be my advice and go research the origins and development of a lot of the tunes we play.
Hmm... personally I just like a variety of old and new tunes. I agree a lot of the more modern tunes are more syncopated/flashy or whatever which I think is cool! They tend to appeal to a wider audience as well I reckon. If you take someone like Seth Lakeman, then he's become popular to a wider audience through instrumentals that are much more like a modern tune than an old one...
But loads of old traditional tunes are great as well! And it's true that the new ones wouldn't exist without the old ones. Ha I haven't actually added anything to this at all! But just thought I'd post my opinion!
So, Michael, you think that Mr McGoldrick has an absolute grasp of ITM. He certainly has an absolute grasp of the technicalities of the instruments he plays, it can't be gainsaid. But an absolute grasp of ITM? Very debatable indeed I should say. But give him another 30 years and a little mellowing...
I know Dow would censure me here, and quite right, but have you ever sat with the guy for a tune? Tis a very different beast from his performances. He is remarkably sympathetic and has great ears.
for christ sake, the whole thing about performing is about ego, it's about presenting yourself. it's about entertaining paying punters and there is absolutly nothing whatsoever wrong with it. Far from it, it's a noble proffession. Of course he does it different when he's performing. Christ
Ego moderato then. I did wink. Knickers should be kept on. Oooo, this Aussie merlot is good. That's the second forum I've said that on in five minutes.
"This is the same music that fought English oppression". I just had to quote that again, sorry. No wonder the lads had the sh*te bet out of them in '16: they were having a hooley in the GPO. Priceless.
", but without wanting to sound patronising I think the more you learn about the tradition the more you will move away from trendy trad, that's what's happened to me and lots of others I know. When I first got into trad I loved jazzy, synchopated chords and all that lark, now, with a few notable exceptions, it makes me cringe!"
I'm the exact opposite - I started of pure drop to the core. even thought that the bothy band was just too mordern sounding. Hated anything vaguely modern.
I still like pure drop but I love funky tunes now as well.
And steve Shaw strikes again "But an absolute grasp of ITM? Very debatable indeed I should say. But give him another 30 years and a little mellowing..." -
I'd be willing to bet my life on the fact that he knows more about trad than you will ever know. In fact seems quite obvious. Funny you should mention the Ego thing as well steve - Pot calling the kettle black maybe?
""This is the same music that fought English oppression". I just had to quote that again, sorry."
Hehe...in retrospect, I do sound like a proselytizing pr*ck, but I think I'll stick to my guns and say it's something worth saying. Ever heard it said that lilting was invented so that, when the English outlawed Irish music, they could still accompany dancers but have no damning evidence in the form of physical instruments? For that matter, they say the arms-down stepdancing position was invented so that an Englishman, looking out a waist-high window, would think that a dancer was just standing in place. They're obviously legends and old-wives' tales, but the fact remains that there's a cultural understanding that the persistence of the music was a form of protest and morale boost.
What a rude little bb you are. Have we met? I posted as a counter to Michael's implied certainty about Mr McGoldrick's absolute grasp of ITM, which I don't agree about. OK on a discussion forum, what what? And I'd like you to apprise us all as to how you assess whether someone "knows more about trad" than A.N.Other. Watch where you tread now!
Well -I may be rude, but you seem to love being patronising...e.g "but an absolute grasp of ITM? Very debatable indeed I should say. But give him another 30 years and a little mellowing..."
Give him another 30 years and a little mellowing? 30 years? mellowing. C'mon now. You surely must realise how silly that sounds...no? really?
Hey Steve, I never merely implied my certainty, I related my qualified experience. I know that hearsay an argument does not win, but Mr McGoldrick really is a terrific traditional player. And you don't have to have sat with him to know this. You say you don't agree? You need to listen some more
No, really. I've seen him play up close and personal and it's what I think. Fast, smooth, slick, etc. etc. (Jealous? Moi?? ), but no soul. It's only what I think and it isn't patronising just because you don't agree. I only said it was debatable, not that he was definitely not "it." Stop calling me silly and have a glass of Aussie Merlot like I'm doing. Well, bottle....
That last post was aimed at bzzzz, not you Michael. Gosh, it's all down to personal taste and personal opinion. You really haven't a clue how much I listen and what to, old bean. Nor I you. Your post certainly more than implied certainty, but big flippin' deal. You dig the feller and I'm not keen. Would we fight about it were we both to have a pint of Doom Bar to hand, you have to ask yourself.
"This........fought English oppression"
Have you forgotten the words of the Master?
"It is what it is: Irish music. It is the innermost thoughts of our people handed down through the generations. If you have not withstood the hammer blows of tyranny the music will mean nothing to you.
Not only that. the music is part of the country itself. Its crags and mosses. the barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the fog drifting through the gorse and heather of Binn Earagail'"
Prob we wouldnt fight about it - but if we did meet I deffo want to learn that trick where you can look at someones playing and decide that they have 'no soul' - its very clever and may even be considered some kind of super power - you know like superman or spiderman. You could be called 'Soulman'.
Nah then, bb, as we say oop north when somebody's getting beyond themselves. Maybe there's nowt I can say to you (for a start I see you're a-spittin' on another thread tonight). When I said he had no soul I immediately followed it by saying it was only my opinion. So why not cut the Aunt Sally tackle and just accept that opinions are just what they are - opinions. The older I get the fewer certainties I perceive in life. Actually, I probably know nothing, and I don't even come from Barcelona.
It still seems uncertain whether this all started with a wind-up, but it certainly looks like it. Consider:
Having admitted (and fair play to him for the honesty there) that he has been "serious" about ITM for just over 2 months, and has therefore, if his figures are to be believed, been to two or three sessions in that time, and that until now he had not memorized the tunes he plays so far, he proceeds to carefully avoid anything specific, but to make assumptions about what people think and feel and to project various attitudes onto them. In other words, it just looks like an attempt to push buttons, an invitation to get on our high horses. For instance:
A) In my opinion modern tunes sound
much better than trad tunes.
They are more tuneful...
On the basis of how much experience? I think we know the answer.
B) Reading this forum I found out that
many musicians here don't like modern
tunes at all.
Now which musicians would they be? Can you give us many names? Or even one name? Although I've been a member here for a while, it's only in recent months that I've actually followed discussions, but in that time I've never seen anyone write anything so narrow. Some have their preferences, sure, but that's not what you are accusing "many musicians" of.
C) Each time someone is asking for the
name of a modern tune (thanks to
youtube) there is always...
Each time? Always? Can you give us details? How many times exactly has this happened? Or, failing that, can you just give us a few examples - say half a dozen?
D) ...some crabby traditional musician
criticizing the tune.
And you know that the musician is crabby because of what? Because their taste differs from yours?
E) So here are my questions: Explain me
why you don't like modern tunes ?
Here's a question for you: Have you stopped beating your wife?
F) Is it worthwhile memorizing these tunes
for a session ? or is it useless because
ITM musicians don't like them ?
If you love the tune you should memorize it so you can play it. Whether anyone else will then want to learn it remains to be seen.
"Nah then, bb, as we say oop north when somebody's getting beyond themselves. Maybe there's nowt I can say to you (for a start I see you're a-spittin' on another thread tonight). When I said he had no soul I immediately followed it by saying it was only my opinion. So why not cut the Aunt Sally tackle and just accept that opinions are just what they are - opinions. The older I get the fewer certainties I perceive in life. Actually, I probably know nothing, and I don't even come from Barcelona."
Thanks for the tips steve - I shall keep them in mind. I have no idea what the "Aunt Sally Tackle" means, but I'm sure its clever - no worrys I will deffo cut it out...whatever it is...
bb I think he means you, Ralex and Joe CSS have no taste in tunes. He'd be right. That's ok though youse can't help it. Don't have a go at us though it's not our fault, and you're beyond help now.
Thank God I have you as the articulator of my inchoate notions, old boy. You could have told bb what an Aunt Sally is though. Go on, think of something.
Tackle: stuff, gear, impedimenta, baggage, male genitalia (aka nads, meat-'n'-two veg). Northern English. I like a lot of modern tunes but I hate Drowsy Maggie and The Longford Collector and Coleman's Cross. God, I'm confused.
I like heaps of old tunes as well as the modern tunes. guess I'm just one of those people who like all kinds of tunes, not just the ones that are stated as being Pure Drop. A good tune is a good tune, no matter how it got here.
E) crabby:
adjective (OLD-FASHIONED crabbed) INFORMAL
easily annoyed and complaining
I wanted to emphasis the word traditional, old-fashioned...
I like the way you wrote your answer. A) B) C) Conclusion. Very impressive. But your rhetoric is a bit too "sophist" or/and too pedant for a forum like this one...
"So, Michael, you think that Mr McGoldrick has an absolute grasp of ITM."
All right - my name isn't Michael, I haven't played with McGoldrick, I'm not saying he's *the* greatest flute player Irish Traditional Music has ever seen - and who am *I* to say, anyway? But I recommend a listen to his collaboration with banjo player Eamonn Coyne on track 2 of 'Through The Round Window' http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/390 (an outstanding album altogether - even if you don't believe in banjos), *then* question his credentials as a traditional player.
I am not questioning his credentials as an ITM player. Show me where I ever did that. If we questioned the credentials of every ITM player who didn't, in our opinion, have an absolute grasp, then there would be very few or no ITM players. I can't think of anything more boring than having an absolute grasp. Thank God I'll never come close to achieving it.
I can like some of the new style playing OK, but if it's too out there "creative" it does nothing for me. Give me a real old style any day, it melts my heart, it's more than just liking it, or even loving it, it's something even deeper than that, words can't explain it, when a great player can get at the core of that old style sound and the old tunes. I never get that feeling from a lot of the super groups' performances, great musicians as they may be technically.
However, many members of super groups, just on their own, when not on stage, they have a great grasp of real ITM, and play that way when not perfroming... the touring and performing is their living of course, and they can put on a great show, which I do enjoy. I just prefer their great musicianship when it's not so slickly arranged is all. But as Michael says, they need to entertain the people paying to see them, and many expect a modern, flawless and slick performance, new tunes or old ones newly arranged. I'd rather see them laid back, at a session somewhere playing old style tunes and not caring if they make a mistake so much, but more focused on their passion for the music and ripping out tune after tune with great love for the music and no showmanship or self consciousness.
I didn't read all the posts to see if someone already pointed this out, so apologies in advance, but the rte clip w/ McGoldrick is a set of OLD tunes.....great stuff...I wish he'd do that more often, he really is a good trad player
No offence taken at your stating what I agree with. Good grip, great grip, but absolute? They do mean different things, y'know, and are not merely shades of the same meaning. Now 'scuse me while I practise Danny Boy and my accompaniment to The Fields of Athenry. In F for Pete's sake. New-fangled pitch rubbish...
I am glad many of you folks prefer rough-edged playing with mistakes over slick, polished and mistake-free performances. There is hope for my playing after all...........
Ralex responded with:
Ralex: A) You will be wiser when you are older (sigh). Experience seems to be very important indeed ...
Me: I sense that your second sentence there was meant ironically. But of course most people get wiser with age. It would be effing sad if we didn't get wiser. You have a problem with that?
Ralex: B) http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12874/comments#comment264512
Me: Sorry it doesn't wash. On that thread there were some posters who felt that certain specific tunes were crap, and said so. And? Your charge was that "many musicians here don't like modern tunes at all". You have provided no evidence for that.
Ralex: E) crabby:
adjective (OLD-FASHIONED crabbed) INFORMAL
easily annoyed and complaining
I wanted to emphasis the word traditional, old-fashioned...
Me: Yes, I know what crabby means, and I would take issue with your suggestion that it carries a connotation of "old fashioned" - such a connotation is not listed in the 21-volume OED. So you may have *wanted* to emphasize "traditional", but what you actually *wrote* meant that the posters you refer to are bad-tempered and irritable. That might, of course, be true, but you provide no evidence for it.
Ralex: I like the way you wrote your answer. A) B) C) Conclusion. Very impressive. But your rhetoric is a bit too "sophist" or/and too pedant for a forum like this
Me: The fact that you now say that you meant something other than what you wrote well illustrates my own view that sloppy writing is unhelpful. Tell me, what sort of writing is, in your view, appropriate for a forum like this?
I've found that the older I get the less I know. I estimate that by the time I reach about 80 the only thing left I'll know is how to work a corkscrew. I flippin' hope so anyway.
Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I have been playing low whistle for 2 years and I really take up playing ITM seriously this year. I play in a session every month and I try to learn as many tunes as I can.
This year I decided to memorize all tunes in my tunebook because I don't want to bring my sheets at the session (don't make fun of me I know I am probably the only person in the world to play at sessions with sheets in front of me...) and I don't want to bother the other musicians anymore.
So when I started learning by heart my tunes I realized it was more easy for me to memorize modern tunes (such as Farewell To Whalley Range, maple leaf or Clapton Jig) than typical trad tunes. In my opinion modern tunes sound much better than trad tunes. They are more tuneful and moreover the audience like them.
Reading this forum I found out that many musicians here don't like modern tunes at all. Each time someone is asking for the name of a modern tune (thanks to youtube) there is always some crabby traditional musician criticizing the tune.
So here are my questions :
Explain me why you don't like modern tunes ?
Is it worthwhile memorizing these tunes for a session ? or is it useless because ITM musicians don't like them ?
I like playing ITM but sometimes it becomes repetitive and I want to play something new. Something which would be the future of the irish music ....
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
ha ha, if this is a wind up, it's a cracker. But if it's not, I'll try to reply politely:
Basically, in saying you prefer modern tunes to old tunes, you are simply saying you don't like traditional irish music. That's fine, you don't have to like it. But the question irises, what are you doing here?
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"In my opinion modern tunes sound much better than trad tunes"
Good for you.
"Each time someone is asking for the name of a modern tune (thanks to youtube) there is always some crabby traditional musician criticizing the tune."
It's their crabby traditional opinion.
"Explain me why you don't like modern tunes ?"
De gustibus non est disputandum.
"I like playing ITM but sometimes it becomes repetitive and I want to play something new"
Do then, by all means.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by EastPole
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
In general, I agree with you. But you are going to get MAULED by old gits like Llig. So watch out.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I want a debate. No narrow-minded answers please
Thx
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Michael is right - traditional music is what it is and there's no old or modern. Just because Maurice Lennon composed The Master's Daughter or Stone of Destiny just a few years ago doesn't make them modern, they fit perfectly into the traditional idiom. On the other hand if some of the newly composed offerings we often hear that are lacking in melody, contain off-beats or sound East European, just because they are played by traditional musicians on accepted traditional instruments, it doesn't make them traditional.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I would say that joining a session is were music meets politics and social etiquette. Always good to be humble, respectful and join in gracefully. You say you play with them once a month. Maybe you should find some other folks and do some modern stuff once a month, too. Then you have your bases covered.
Trying to introduce modern stuff is like thinking you're going to get you spouse to change after you marry 'em.
John Hartford once said that in Old Time jams in the US, folks would play their newly written songs and just say they "heard" this piece somewhere, but they can't remember where. Then they would play it.
Cheers!
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by nofrets
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Hey Joe CSS in your user description I can read :
"A lot of people (well, some) are annoyed by my musical tastes. I just love playing the really cool, weird, modern tunes that never really get played in sessions, sometimes in irregular time signatures and stuff. I'm sorry, but they're such fun.
My favourite band has to be Lúnasa (Kevin Crawford kinda rocks)
And my favourite soloist is OBVIOUSLY Mike McGoldrick!"
I totally agree with you !
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"I want a debate. No narrow-minded answers please"
I don't understand, you want to debate why you don't like traditional Irish music? That's not a debate. The music is there for you to discover or to disregard, It's entirely up to you. Trying to have a conversation with people who have a completely different level of understanding than you would be futile. You are not going to get anywhere near understanding it by talking about it.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
It's sessions themselves that tend to be conservative (I'll add, I'm middle-aged and so are the ITM sessions I go to). If you bring a new tune to a session and launch into it on your own, it's pretty likely no-one else will pick up the ball and run with it - all the more if you're new to the session. The test is, If you like the tune so much, are you prepared to practise and play it completely on your own, on the off-chance that somewhere way down the line of time someone else might hear and appreciate it? I get the impression that's how some of the old players kept up their music, before Irish trad music became acceptable / fashionable / taken seriously.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I thought this music was about to be "humble and respectful" as nofrets said. When I read your answers llig I feel anger. I didn't say I don't like ITM by the way.
"Trying to have a conversation with people who have a completely different level of understanding than you would be futile."
That's the funniest sentence I ever read. According to me it is a narow-minded reaction. You seem like you don't want to share your experience. It's a pity for foreigner beginers like me (I'm french) who want to learn ITM or want to know the opinion of native musicians like you...
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
There's no need to get angry. OK so you like he music. But you say you like the "new" music more. Fair enough
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Look at my tunebook and will see I play a lot of ITM tunes...
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
But I think you miss something with Michael McGoldrick. His "new" music is where it is today because of his absolute grasp of traditional music. The argumant should not be polarized. If you asked McGoldrick wheth?
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
.. whether he prefered the new tunes or the old ones, what do you think he'd say?
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
So his "new music" is bound with ITM. Because he grasped ITM he was able to write new tunes inspired by the old one. In a way you admit new tunes could be mix with ITM tunes because they are bound...
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Harry Bradley writes: "A good old tune will never age as fast as a bad new one!"
By the way, you can listen to McGoldrick play trad tunes in an trad style: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/ceilihouse/rams/7may.smil (starts around 20:45)
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by slainte
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I am quite sure McGoldrick would say he liked them both and probably does not really distinguish old and new - they are all part of the same tradition.
Essentially he, like most of us is "looking for music that makes his shoulders move" - who cares if it was written in 2007 or 1707.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
What difference does it matter if the tune is old or new? Surely what matters most to someone is whether they think it is good or bad.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
crabby? what the f?ck you mean, crabby? seems like if a newer tune is good it's because it's got a lot of some old tunes in it somewhere. crabby? mutter, muttre............mudder?
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Dont
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
of course, the best new tunes are bound to the tradition and will survive because of this. And most of the worst of the old ones have died (unfortunately, a hell of a lot of s h i t old ones survive because people with no taste play them, but I digress)
Or do I digress? Maybe one of the reasons a lot of s h i t new tunes get played just because of no taste
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"They are more tuneful and moreover the audience like them." - Ah, so you are a performer Ralex! That might explain your attitude
But seriously, would you like to estimate how many old & ancient traditional ITM tunes have been forgotten about over the past 200 years, quite simply because they were €rap?
Better not to think in terms of old tunes & new tunes ................. but rather, simply in terms of good tunes & bad ones!
You say too that you find some old trad tunes repetitive. Well I must admit, I find that some of the gimmicky little syncopated phrases in some of the modern tunes just don't stand up to repeated exposure & can very quickly become irritating indeed.
The tunes we regard today as old trad have stood the test of time. In 50 years time I'm sure some of the tunes being composed & played today will still be getting their turn in the sessions, but I'm also convinced that many will have blown away like so much chaff!
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I'll most directly answer the initial question:
Why don't I like modern tunes?
I do like modern tunes. I compose some of them.
Why don't I like modern tunes as much as the older ones?
You have to realize that a lot of "traditional" tunes were composed in the twentieth century anyway.
Why don't I like tunes that are brand, spanking, shiny new?
Lack of history. Part of the appeal of playing Irish music - for me, anyway - is playing something and thinking, "This is the same music that fought English oppression." "This is the same music that brought the Irish spirit to America." "This is the same music that created and bound a community in America." "This is the same music that saved Ireland's morale from complete collapse." "This is the same music that Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford and Padraig o'Keefe played." "This is the same music a thousand nameless masters before me played." There's a connection to something greater that makes the music meaningful.
--DtM
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"seems like if a newer tune is good it's because it's got a lot of some old tunes in it somewhere"
I agree with you Dont. That's why I don't understand why a lot of people blame new tunes and don't want to play them at session. New tunes have a bond with ITM however traditional musicians aren't fond of them (that's why I used "crabby"). There is a paradox ...
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
$hit Dan, I try my best not to cloud my playing enjoyment with a load of old political bo££ocks when I play, I just like the sound of the music.
At one of the sessions here, we can have English Northumbrian Pipes, Irish Uilleann Pipes & Scottish Border & Scottish Smallpipes all round the same table.
Gordon Bennett, if we were all thinking politics when we played, the bar would probably be awash with blood by the end of the night!
They're just pretty little melodies, with fancy wee twiddly bits to give the vain performers amongst us an opportunity to show off - nothing more!
For example, for years people tagged a load of political bu££4hit onto Frank McCollam's - 'The Home Ruler' when the fact is ...... he wrote it for his wife.
They're just pretty little melodies, that's all!
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"This is the same music that fought English oppression." "This is the same music that brought the Irish spirit to America." "This is the same music that created and bound a community in America." "This is the same music that saved Ireland's morale from complete collapse."
It is an interesting answer. It is excatly what I wanted to read. Thank you Dan the Man. I agree and understand there is more history background behind an old tune and that's you prefer old tunes because the music is "meaningful" as you said...
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Some of the best tunes considered 'traditional' were composed in the last 50 years and so are in effect 'modern', many tunes by Ed Reavy, Paddy Fahey, Charlie Lennon, Tommy Peoples, Liz Carroll and so on are played so often that people think they are ancient and don't realise how modern they are. Yet if you compare the best of these tunes to ones in the old collections you will see that these tunes have something new or different about them without being gimmicky, they have a combination of soul, inventiveness and respect for the tradition.
These are the modern tunes I love and the ones I think will last.
Ralex, From your description it seems the tunes you like are the trendy tunes which have some kind of popiness to them, these tunes are fine for a while but very few of them will last.
Also complaining about the repetitiveness of the old tunes is like complaining about the religiousness of the Pope. Repetition is essential to creating a certain feeling in trad, my sense is that you haven't been really listening properly to Irish music and you probably haven't really experienced a great session. Years ago I used to think it was all very repetitive but now I understand that good trad is never repetitive in a dull way. The use of repetition is essential and it is the subtle variations around this repetition which can give the music such a lift.
Since you've only been playing for 2 years and seem to be concentrating on Lunasa type trad it's understandable that you haven't learnt to fully appreciate the 'old' trad, but without wanting to sound patronising I think the more you learn about the tradition the more you will move away from trendy trad, that's what's happened to me and lots of others I know. When I first got into trad I loved jazzy, synchopated chords and all that lark, now, with a few notable exceptions, it makes me cringe!
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Bring back Tigh Hughes!
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
What kind of album CD do you recommend me to appreciate the old trad frisbee ?
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Here are some you might like to check out Ralex:
Ronan Browne & Peter O'Loughlin: The South West Wind, Traditional Music from County Clare
Joe Cooley - Cooley
Casey in the Cowhouse ~ Bobby Casey
Peter Horan and Fred Finn - Music of Sligo
Oh, & just to prove that good trad isn't only played by old players, you should listen to:
Angelina Carberry - An Tradisiun Beo
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I'd start off with artists who are rooted firmly in the tradition, but considered to be very influential in the development of ITM since the 70s revival. Try any solo, duo, or trio albums by Matt Molloy - they should be traditional enough to satisfy 'old trad' requirements, and new enough to prevent complete dissatisfaction. If you want to learn flute from recordings, it's best to avoid large ensemble arrangements: they tend to make individual subtleties somewhat indistinct. 'In Good Company', by Kevin Crawford, is pretty traditional, I seem to recall. 'A Clare Conscience', by Aidan MacMahon and Anthony Quigney, is a lovely, 'pure drop' style album recorded recently. I play fiddle, so I can't really recommend that much flute music off the top of my head, but if you have a listen to these sort of albums, you should get a good idea of what kind of interesting new things can be done in a very 'old', traditional style. These artists play old tunes primarily, yet they bring something incredibly fresh to their recordings. Lots of people start listening to large ensembles like Lunasa, and then begin to develop an attraction for a purer, small session-like sound. Give the old-style sound a chance, and before you know it, you'll be listening to scratchy old recordings from the 30s and 40s, and you'll be able to see what everyone who's been playing for a few years is going on about. Good luck.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Robert Ryan
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Well Ralex, I'm glad you are open minded enough to ask me to recommend some 'old''' trad CD's to you, I'll recommend a few things to you now but please don't distinguish between 'old' and 'new' trad, as I said in my post there are lots of great new tunes, they just have a certain style that means they might be considered 'old'.
So as for CD's, I think you will have to do a very gradual listening to begin to appreciate the more pure 'older' style Irish music.
If you haven't heard The Bothy Band they are probably a good place to start. Their album 'Out of The Wind and Into The Sun' is great and it probably inspired Lunasa. Their Live CD 'Afterhours' is also great.
Once you've heard the Bothy Band you'll be well prepared to try out some more stripped down trad. Maybe try the following albums in this order.
Paddy Glackin (with Donal Lunny) - In Full Spate - a good mix of old tunes, great fiddle playing and some more modern arrangement techniques.
Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill - Live in Seattle - a great album which is both modern and ancient sounding, one of the best 'pure' fiddle and guitar albums out there.
Andy Irvine and Paul Brady - This album is a real classic with some fine examples of Irish songs.
None of those albums would be considered completely pure old style trad, so once you've got used to them then you could try the following recent CD's which are just beautiful examples of pure trad played in modern times.
Mick Ó'Brien and Caoimhín Ó'Raghallaigh - Kitty Lie Over - This is mosty just fiddle and pipes and it is really magical it is many peoples favourite trad CD of the last few years.
Breda Keville - The Hop Down - This may take some getting used to if you are only used to Lunasa type trad, but it is really one of the most soulful, emotional trad recordings I've ever heard. It is mostly solo fiddle, the playing is generally at a very easy pace and some of the tuning is what some might consider 'out of tune', but it really isn't out of tune, it is in the old Irish tuning where certain notes are a bit flat compared to what we think of as 'in tune' today. Once you get used to it you can really feel the special sound of the style of East Galway and Paddy Fahey.
Harry Bradley - Bad Turns and Horse-Shoe Bends
This is a brilliant album of flute playing from Harry Bradley, who often contributes intelligent comments to this website. It's pure and simple but complex and innovative at the same time!
After that if you like what you've heard then go explore the old recordings of John Doherty, Willy Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Michael Coleman and so on. After all that if you still prefer the trendy trad stuff then I'm afraid you just don't really like 'traditional' Irish music, you like 'Celtic World' music!
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Bring back Tigh Hughes!
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"This is the same music that fought English oppression.... ect"
"It is excatly what I wanted to read ... ect"
Now I'm getting angry
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"Now I'm getting angry"
About the English thing? I'm actually 1/4 English, and not Irish at all, oddly enough.
--DtM
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
If you think like that Dan, stick with the Wolfe Tones and their ilk would be my advice and go research the origins and development of a lot of the tunes we play.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Many good debates (and probably no small number of feuds) started with a wind-up, so no comment.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by drone
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Hmm... personally I just like a variety of old and new tunes. I agree a lot of the more modern tunes are more syncopated/flashy or whatever which I think is cool! They tend to appeal to a wider audience as well I reckon. If you take someone like Seth Lakeman, then he's become popular to a wider audience through instrumentals that are much more like a modern tune than an old one...
But loads of old traditional tunes are great as well! And it's true that the new ones wouldn't exist without the old ones. Ha I haven't actually added anything to this at all! But just thought I'd post my opinion!
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by squeezyjoe
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
So, Michael, you think that Mr McGoldrick has an absolute grasp of ITM. He certainly has an absolute grasp of the technicalities of the instruments he plays, it can't be gainsaid. But an absolute grasp of ITM? Very debatable indeed I should say. But give him another 30 years and a little mellowing...
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I know Dow would censure me here, and quite right, but have you ever sat with the guy for a tune? Tis a very different beast from his performances. He is remarkably sympathetic and has great ears.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
So why does he do it different for his performances I wonder? Ego??
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
for christ sake, the whole thing about performing is about ego, it's about presenting yourself. it's about entertaining paying punters and there is absolutly nothing whatsoever wrong with it. Far from it, it's a noble proffession. Of course he does it different when he's performing. Christ
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Ego moderato then. I did wink. Knickers should be kept on. Oooo, this Aussie merlot is good. That's the second forum I've said that on in five minutes.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I'd cut down on your forums mate.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"This is the same music that fought English oppression". I just had to quote that again, sorry. No wonder the lads had the sh*te bet out of them in '16: they were having a hooley in the GPO. Priceless.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Robert Ryan
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Fora.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
", but without wanting to sound patronising I think the more you learn about the tradition the more you will move away from trendy trad, that's what's happened to me and lots of others I know. When I first got into trad I loved jazzy, synchopated chords and all that lark, now, with a few notable exceptions, it makes me cringe!"
I'm the exact opposite - I started of pure drop to the core. even thought that the bothy band was just too mordern sounding. Hated anything vaguely modern.
I still like pure drop but I love funky tunes now as well.
And steve Shaw strikes again "But an absolute grasp of ITM? Very debatable indeed I should say. But give him another 30 years and a little mellowing..." -
I'd be willing to bet my life on the fact that he knows more about trad than you will ever know. In fact seems quite obvious. Funny you should mention the Ego thing as well steve - Pot calling the kettle black maybe?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
""This is the same music that fought English oppression". I just had to quote that again, sorry."
Hehe...in retrospect, I do sound like a proselytizing pr*ck, but I think I'll stick to my guns and say it's something worth saying. Ever heard it said that lilting was invented so that, when the English outlawed Irish music, they could still accompany dancers but have no damning evidence in the form of physical instruments? For that matter, they say the arms-down stepdancing position was invented so that an Englishman, looking out a waist-high window, would think that a dancer was just standing in place. They're obviously legends and old-wives' tales, but the fact remains that there's a cultural understanding that the persistence of the music was a form of protest and morale boost.
--DtM
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
What a rude little bb you are. Have we met? I posted as a counter to Michael's implied certainty about Mr McGoldrick's absolute grasp of ITM, which I don't agree about. OK on a discussion forum, what what? And I'd like you to apprise us all as to how you assess whether someone "knows more about trad" than A.N.Other. Watch where you tread now!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Yeah, you proselytizing eedjit
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Well -I may be rude, but you seem to love being patronising...e.g "but an absolute grasp of ITM? Very debatable indeed I should say. But give him another 30 years and a little mellowing..."
Give him another 30 years and a little mellowing? 30 years? mellowing. C'mon now. You surely must realise how silly that sounds...no? really?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Hey Steve, I never merely implied my certainty, I related my qualified experience. I know that hearsay an argument does not win, but Mr McGoldrick really is a terrific traditional player. And you don't have to have sat with him to know this. You say you don't agree? You need to listen some more
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
No, really. I've seen him play up close and personal and it's what I think. Fast, smooth, slick, etc. etc. (Jealous? Moi??
), but no soul. It's only what I think and it isn't patronising just because you don't agree. I only said it was debatable, not that he was definitely not "it." Stop calling me silly and have a glass of Aussie Merlot like I'm doing. Well, bottle....
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Drink your grog and listen some more. Me, I've had a coupleof large toddies (medicinal) and I'm off to bed
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
That last post was aimed at bzzzz, not you Michael. Gosh, it's all down to personal taste and personal opinion. You really haven't a clue how much I listen and what to, old bean. Nor I you. Your post certainly more than implied certainty, but big flippin' deal. You dig the feller and I'm not keen. Would we fight about it were we both to have a pint of Doom Bar to hand, you have to ask yourself.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"This........fought English oppression"
Have you forgotten the words of the Master?
"It is what it is: Irish music. It is the innermost thoughts of our people handed down through the generations. If you have not withstood the hammer blows of tyranny the music will mean nothing to you.
Not only that. the music is part of the country itself. Its crags and mosses. the barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the fog drifting through the gorse and heather of Binn Earagail'"
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Prob we wouldnt fight about it - but if we did meet I deffo want to learn that trick where you can look at someones playing and decide that they have 'no soul' - its very clever and may even be considered some kind of super power - you know like superman or spiderman. You could be called 'Soulman'.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Does the quotation sound achingly familiar, but you can't quite place it?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8643/comments#comment184671
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Nah then, bb, as we say oop north when somebody's getting beyond themselves. Maybe there's nowt I can say to you (for a start I see you're a-spittin' on another thread tonight). When I said he had no soul I immediately followed it by saying it was only my opinion. So why not cut the Aunt Sally tackle and just accept that opinions are just what they are - opinions. The older I get the fewer certainties I perceive in life. Actually, I probably know nothing, and I don't even come from Barcelona.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
It still seems uncertain whether this all started with a wind-up, but it certainly looks like it. Consider:
Having admitted (and fair play to him for the honesty there) that he has been "serious" about ITM for just over 2 months, and has therefore, if his figures are to be believed, been to two or three sessions in that time, and that until now he had not memorized the tunes he plays so far, he proceeds to carefully avoid anything specific, but to make assumptions about what people think and feel and to project various attitudes onto them. In other words, it just looks like an attempt to push buttons, an invitation to get on our high horses. For instance:
A) In my opinion modern tunes sound
much better than trad tunes.
They are more tuneful...
On the basis of how much experience? I think we know the answer.
B) Reading this forum I found out that
many musicians here don't like modern
tunes at all.
Now which musicians would they be? Can you give us many names? Or even one name? Although I've been a member here for a while, it's only in recent months that I've actually followed discussions, but in that time I've never seen anyone write anything so narrow. Some have their preferences, sure, but that's not what you are accusing "many musicians" of.
C) Each time someone is asking for the
name of a modern tune (thanks to
youtube) there is always...
Each time? Always? Can you give us details? How many times exactly has this happened? Or, failing that, can you just give us a few examples - say half a dozen?
D) ...some crabby traditional musician
criticizing the tune.
And you know that the musician is crabby because of what? Because their taste differs from yours?
E) So here are my questions: Explain me
why you don't like modern tunes ?
Here's a question for you: Have you stopped beating your wife?
F) Is it worthwhile memorizing these tunes
for a session ? or is it useless because
ITM musicians don't like them ?
If you love the tune you should memorize it so you can play it. Whether anyone else will then want to learn it remains to be seen.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"Nah then, bb, as we say oop north when somebody's getting beyond themselves. Maybe there's nowt I can say to you (for a start I see you're a-spittin' on another thread tonight). When I said he had no soul I immediately followed it by saying it was only my opinion. So why not cut the Aunt Sally tackle and just accept that opinions are just what they are - opinions. The older I get the fewer certainties I perceive in life. Actually, I probably know nothing, and I don't even come from Barcelona."
Thanks for the tips steve - I shall keep them in mind. I have no idea what the "Aunt Sally Tackle" means, but I'm sure its clever - no worrys I will deffo cut it out...whatever it is...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
bb I think he means you, Ralex and Joe CSS have no taste in tunes. He'd be right. That's ok though youse can't help it. Don't have a go at us though it's not our fault, and you're beyond help now.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Dow
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Thank God I have you as the articulator of my inchoate notions, old boy. You could have told bb what an Aunt Sally is though. Go on, think of something.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
And to think I thought an Aunt Sally Tackle had something to do with football
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ray Mariani
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
No, think "The Crying Game"
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Tackle: stuff, gear, impedimenta, baggage, male genitalia (aka nads, meat-'n'-two veg). Northern English. I like a lot of modern tunes but I hate Drowsy Maggie and The Longford Collector and Coleman's Cross. God, I'm confused.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Wah wah wee wah?? ;)
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ray Mariani
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I like heaps of old tunes as well as the modern tunes. guess I'm just one of those people who like all kinds of tunes, not just the ones that are stated as being Pure Drop. A good tune is a good tune, no matter how it got here.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
A) You will be wiser when you are older (sigh). Experience seems to be very important indeed
...
B)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12874/comments#comment264512
E) crabby:
adjective (OLD-FASHIONED crabbed) INFORMAL
easily annoyed and complaining
I wanted to emphasis the word traditional, old-fashioned...
I like the way you wrote your answer. A) B) C) Conclusion. Very impressive. But your rhetoric is a bit too "sophist" or/and too pedant for a forum like this one...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Ralex
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
"So, Michael, you think that Mr McGoldrick has an absolute grasp of ITM."
All right - my name isn't Michael, I haven't played with McGoldrick, I'm not saying he's *the* greatest flute player Irish Traditional Music has ever seen - and who am *I* to say, anyway? But I recommend a listen to his collaboration with banjo player Eamonn Coyne on track 2 of 'Through The Round Window' http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/390 (an outstanding album altogether - even if you don't believe in banjos), *then* question his credentials as a traditional player.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I am not questioning his credentials as an ITM player. Show me where I ever did that. If we questioned the credentials of every ITM player who didn't, in our opinion, have an absolute grasp, then there would be very few or no ITM players. I can't think of anything more boring than having an absolute grasp. Thank God I'll never come close to achieving it.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I can like some of the new style playing OK, but if it's too out there "creative" it does nothing for me. Give me a real old style any day, it melts my heart, it's more than just liking it, or even loving it, it's something even deeper than that, words can't explain it, when a great player can get at the core of that old style sound and the old tunes. I never get that feeling from a lot of the super groups' performances, great musicians as they may be technically.
However, many members of super groups, just on their own, when not on stage, they have a great grasp of real ITM, and play that way when not perfroming... the touring and performing is their living of course, and they can put on a great show, which I do enjoy. I just prefer their great musicianship when it's not so slickly arranged is all. But as Michael says, they need to entertain the people paying to see them, and many expect a modern, flawless and slick performance, new tunes or old ones newly arranged. I'd rather see them laid back, at a session somewhere playing old style tunes and not caring if they make a mistake so much, but more focused on their passion for the music and ripping out tune after tune with great love for the music and no showmanship or self consciousness.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I didn't read all the posts to see if someone already pointed this out, so apologies in advance, but the rte clip w/ McGoldrick is a set of OLD tunes.....great stuff...I wish he'd do that more often, he really is a good trad player
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by meemtp
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
No offense Steve, but McGoldrick has a good grip on ITM IMHO, I sounds like one of the auld players to me on said RTE clip...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by meemtp
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
No offence taken at your stating what I agree with. Good grip, great grip, but absolute? They do mean different things, y'know, and are not merely shades of the same meaning. Now 'scuse me while I practise Danny Boy and my accompaniment to The Fields of Athenry. In F for Pete's sake. New-fangled pitch rubbish...
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Are you merely saying there can be no such thing as an absolute grasp of this music. Or that some have it, but McGoldrick doesn't?
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Next time I'm playing at a session I'll be remembering the hammer blows of tyranny all the way through.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by dafydd
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Think of it as asymptotic, Michael. Be glad you'll never get there.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Another McGoldrick clip: http://www.tradtunes.com/m3u.m3u?track_id=43103
He definitely knows how to eliminate modern influences from his playing.
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by slainte
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I am glad many of you folks prefer rough-edged playing with mistakes over slick, polished and mistake-free performances. There is hope for my playing after all...........
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
Ralex responded with:
Ralex: A) You will be wiser when you are older (sigh). Experience seems to be very important indeed ...
Me: I sense that your second sentence there was meant ironically. But of course most people get wiser with age. It would be effing sad if we didn't get wiser. You have a problem with that?
Ralex: B) http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12874/comments#comment264512
Me: Sorry it doesn't wash. On that thread there were some posters who felt that certain specific tunes were crap, and said so. And? Your charge was that "many musicians here don't like modern tunes at all". You have provided no evidence for that.
Ralex: E) crabby:
adjective (OLD-FASHIONED crabbed) INFORMAL
easily annoyed and complaining
I wanted to emphasis the word traditional, old-fashioned...
Me: Yes, I know what crabby means, and I would take issue with your suggestion that it carries a connotation of "old fashioned" - such a connotation is not listed in the 21-volume OED. So you may have *wanted* to emphasize "traditional", but what you actually *wrote* meant that the posters you refer to are bad-tempered and irritable. That might, of course, be true, but you provide no evidence for it.
Ralex: I like the way you wrote your answer. A) B) C) Conclusion. Very impressive. But your rhetoric is a bit too "sophist" or/and too pedant for a forum like this
Me: The fact that you now say that you meant something other than what you wrote well illustrates my own view that sloppy writing is unhelpful. Tell me, what sort of writing is, in your view, appropriate for a forum like this?
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
I've found that the older I get the less I know. I estimate that by the time I reach about 80 the only thing left I'll know is how to work a corkscrew. I flippin' hope so anyway.
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Modern tunes vs trad tunes
If Llig is "an old git" (Joe C$$'s post a couple of days ago), what does that make me? I'm old enough to be his Dad.
Umm,,,
# Posted on March 13th 2007 by lazyhound