I recently encouraged a bunch of my young pupils to take themselves off to a 4 day kids trad music thingy over Easter. I'm hoping they will have a bit of fun and get some confidence and enthusiasm from the experience.
Looking at the brochure and website put out by the organisers ( http://www.eyg.org.uk if you want to have a look) it's obvious that they are trying very hard to present trad music as a "young and trendy" activity, and seem to be using mainly tutors in their 20s, and again trying to emphasise how very groovy these people are. I don't think this is a bad idea (after all, I'm encouraging kids to attend) but I do wonder whether they are pushing it a bit further than is good.
First, I wonder whether kids might benefit more from some of the tutors having more than a few years teaching experience.
And also whether this is creating a sort of self perpetuating youth sub-culture in trad music - where kids are "educated" in a particular style of "youth trad", and then in 10 or 15 years they will be teaching it to the next generation having had little reference or contact to other long standing strands of the tradition.
I have no problem with kids getting inspiration from being taught by an attractive young player who actually knows what this years fashions look like. But how much better to have this balanced with learning that this music does connect to a tradition of very long standing, and that this is also a fun and interesting aspect of the activity, and to perhaps get some contact with some older widely respected players in the process.
I am writing in Scotland, and I have noticed this trend in a lot of teaching events here. It strikes me as very self conscious on the part of the organisers - as if they aren't really convinced that the music is appealing in its own right. I have the impression that things are a little different in Ireland.
I'd be interested to hear from younger sessioneers, especially, what they think about this. Have you been to events like this where the balance has been all wrong for you? Or really good?
kids arent going to get into it on their own. i think the major element is to make sure they hear the music a lot as they are grwoing up. it nearly creates a sense of nostaglia to learn a song youve been hearing since your 5.
learning an instrument must not be forced or feel forced. that is the priority. irish trad has been shoved down the throats of some kids for as long as theyve lived and leaves no interest.
(by the way im 17 and ive only started really playing tradmusic the last year or so)
I'm 17 too, and I started fiddle when I was around 15. I'd also like to say that I'm not Irish at all and never heard Irish music much as a kid; one night, I just happened to go to a friend's house and his dad was having a session. It was basically old farts with moderately crappy instruments getting drunk, looking ridiculous, and playing some tunes. Somehow I walked away with a fiddle in my hands. I really didn't listen to Irish music - as odd as it sounds - until about September of last year, when I got a new teacher, and after every lesson he sends me away with a new CD of the masters: Murphy, Clifford, O'Keefe, Taylor, Coleman, etc. I fell in the love with the old players, and that's what made me keep it up and stop sucking >_>
Young teachers can work, maybe - but only if they pay due respect to their forebears and have their students listen to it all, discuss it and learn from it. Otherwise - it's not really ITM in my mind.
I don't think that the ability to inspire people or the ability to provide a worthwhile educational experience has anything to do with age. I think that somebody like Padraig Rynne for example has probably emassed a wealth of experience in his years that would be equal to if not more than many people twice his age. I myself have found workshops taken from the likes of Eamon Murray just as informative as those I've taken with say June McCormack.
It comes down to your level of skill and understanding of the workings/style of the music/instrument you are teaching, and your effectiveness in communicating that understanding and concepts to others. Not your age or fashion sense.
Ach, shut up the lot o' yez. If there's one thing people lose as they get older (there's many, but if there was only one), it's a sense of fun. The organisers of this "4 day kids trad music thingy" have thankfully realized this, and accomidated for it well. It' a myth that age or experience neccesarily equals skill. Most of the best players (and teachers) I've ever heard have been under 25. And who are we to decide how the tradition gets handed down - or by whom? It's (hopefully) a living tradition, and the more different kinds of teachers and teaching methods there are, the better. Probably most of the kids going to this music thingy will, in the future, have the tradition "handed to them" by lots of people, old and young, experienced people as well as complete numbskulls.
They will become better musicians from it, and The Music will become better from it.
While having younger players attract a younger audience, I don't know how beneficial it is to take extended lessons from these teachers. I do believe that after the kids are drawn in by the allure of cool young players, i think they'll stick with the music. Perhaps we can talk to the tobacco companies for some ideas? Mebbe we can take out ad's in magazines advertising hot young people playing ITM.
Really, kris! "trendy"?? "groovy"??? I believe there are now vernacular dictionaries you can use.....
If the kids are inspired now, they can catch up with the Deep Tradition later. Didn't most of us start that way?
Why would it not be beneficial to take extended lessons from young teachers? I know a hellavu lot of older players who are bad as well as a hellavu lot of younger players - its nothing to do with age. At school the worst teacher I ever had had been a teacher for around 40 years - I got nothing from her - the best teacher I ever had - well - it was her first job out of uni - she was awesome. Age means nothing in terms of being a good teacher or musician - I mean c'mon - these people at this festival are hardly 10 years old or anything.
Excuse me if I quickly butt into this conversation with you youngsters. Some of we older geezers probably wish we had started playing this music when we were 10. Or less - say 3, maybe. Then we'd all be like Frankie Gavin (Who's he? I hear you say....) That's probably why some of us feel the need to encourage our kids (sometimes it goes beyond encouragement!)
I've strongly encouraged my girl to play and she does - piano, but not trad music. Fair enough, at least she has core musical skills, which hopefully will be transferable when she settles on whatever style takes her.
I don't think trad music will ever be "trendy" and I hope not - and that is its timeless attraction - it's music of space, and people, not time - the spaces being Ireland and Scotland and wherever else these people have settled. Hope that helps any reticent wannabes (oxymoron intended.)
I'd reckon the most important thing for your pupils is just to be playing with people of their own age and having a bit of a laugh. Establish that and technique and repetoire will surely follow in the years ahead.
Hear Hear! When you are young, the way you get involved is less important than getting involved in the first place. Play everything! Listen to everything! Discrimination comes later.
The guitar teacher I took lessons from for a few years is my son's age, and I learned one heck of a lot from him. Quality of a musician and teacher is not necessarily tied to age.
In this incidence, you're talking about children aged about 9 - 17 (ish), many of whom aren't interested in the concept of a "tradition", simply they look at the music as something they do now for their own fun and enjoyment. Given that the teachers in question are all highly skilled instrumentalists surely they are equal to anyone in terms of passing on technical skill and enabling the participants to become better players. And also consider that younger teachers frequently connect more easily with younger students
Music traditionally performs a social function and, while there is a lot to learn from the older musicians, it has to perform these social functions in today's society. The traditional ways will die if people try to keep it and modern ways of life mutually exclusive.
I think there's nothing wrong with having a "kids" conference with only younger teachers...but I (still a teenager and haveing only played trad for about 3ish years)don't think that it should be learned only in a setting of young people. I go to fiddle camp (well, I call it that but it's really for a ll instruments) every year with all ages of students and participants...and I've learned so much from both. I've taken lessons from people from the ages of 21 to late 60s, all outstanding musicians (Jerry Holland, Liz Knowles, Patrick MAngan, and on the siungin end Julee Glaub and MArgaret Bennett), and I've made so many adult friends/mentors who have been students. (MY "Swannanoa Mommies and Daddies"). It's a good idea to get kids started together, but if the music becomes segregated by age it will lose a lot of it's heart.
a very interesting topic, and one of particular resonance to me. i'm 20, and at the end of a long night that saw the end of the second in a 20 date tour of germany, and what a night!!! what you need to do to inspire the youth is exactly what every generation - especially the older ones have done: that is to encourage them not to play traditional music or irish music etc.. (these are marketing terms, and never forget that) but have them play simply music.
i'm from donegal- an area well known for its music and check out any of the old donegal fiddle cds. - the brass fiddle, anything by johnny doherty, and the wonderful donegal fiddle album. now what do you notice?? you'll hear the french nation anthem, any amount of scottish tunes, brass band tunes etc... basicaly anything that they thought was a good tune. read the excellent 'rough guide to irish music' by geoff wallis. and note the quote by mairead ni mhaonaigh ' they didn't care as long as it was a good tune"...
to try and teach kids or anyone respect for a marketing term or an extra musical concept such as that of tradition is to me essentially false. teach them to love music. and never have them play irish music.. only music. it is the most natural way and has opened up so many wonderful experiences for me and can do the same for anyone else who dares choose the path of musical reality.
if you want to pursue this comment with me, send me an email and i will be happy to reply when i can. and btw, good move in encouraging them to go to a camp. people in the age group you're dealing with will probably not analyse the website as you did.
hope that helps and sorry for the spelling mistakes! after all this german beer, it would take quite a bit of inspiration to make me spell correctly!! ha!
inclusion is the key IMHO. If you observe many other campaigns to incude children you will see that it works. I would love to start an instrument bank, but getting the instruments to establish something like this would be out of my financial reach.
There are such things as "Take a kid fishng" this has been a successful campaign practiced all around the world with good results. Why not, "teach a kid to play" or get parents involved int he more social scene, Very quickly the kids become enthused and so do their parents. Music festivals with a well priced family ticket price would go a long way. These are a very good place for families and individuals to explore in a relaxed safe environment. Its not only about ITM,. Lets face it not everyone enjoys it as much as we do. Focus on a love of music rather than a love of genre. Introduce both kids and parents to different styles and genres, show them how much fun it is.
My kids go to the parties and the festivals, they sometimes go to sessions (although generally when they do its those nights it really gets going until the early hours). They have the choice to go or stay home, yet they like to go.
Inspiring our youth
Inspiring our youth
I recently encouraged a bunch of my young pupils to take themselves off to a 4 day kids trad music thingy over Easter. I'm hoping they will have a bit of fun and get some confidence and enthusiasm from the experience.
Looking at the brochure and website put out by the organisers ( http://www.eyg.org.uk if you want to have a look) it's obvious that they are trying very hard to present trad music as a "young and trendy" activity, and seem to be using mainly tutors in their 20s, and again trying to emphasise how very groovy these people are. I don't think this is a bad idea (after all, I'm encouraging kids to attend) but I do wonder whether they are pushing it a bit further than is good.
First, I wonder whether kids might benefit more from some of the tutors having more than a few years teaching experience.
And also whether this is creating a sort of self perpetuating youth sub-culture in trad music - where kids are "educated" in a particular style of "youth trad", and then in 10 or 15 years they will be teaching it to the next generation having had little reference or contact to other long standing strands of the tradition.
I have no problem with kids getting inspiration from being taught by an attractive young player who actually knows what this years fashions look like. But how much better to have this balanced with learning that this music does connect to a tradition of very long standing, and that this is also a fun and interesting aspect of the activity, and to perhaps get some contact with some older widely respected players in the process.
I am writing in Scotland, and I have noticed this trend in a lot of teaching events here. It strikes me as very self conscious on the part of the organisers - as if they aren't really convinced that the music is appealing in its own right. I have the impression that things are a little different in Ireland.
I'd be interested to hear from younger sessioneers, especially, what they think about this. Have you been to events like this where the balance has been all wrong for you? Or really good?
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by kris
Re: Inspiring our youth
kids arent going to get into it on their own. i think the major element is to make sure they hear the music a lot as they are grwoing up. it nearly creates a sense of nostaglia to learn a song youve been hearing since your 5.
learning an instrument must not be forced or feel forced. that is the priority. irish trad has been shoved down the throats of some kids for as long as theyve lived and leaves no interest.
(by the way im 17 and ive only started really playing tradmusic the last year or so)
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by Kevo32A
Re: Inspiring our youth
I'm 17 too, and I started fiddle when I was around 15. I'd also like to say that I'm not Irish at all and never heard Irish music much as a kid; one night, I just happened to go to a friend's house and his dad was having a session. It was basically old farts with moderately crappy instruments getting drunk, looking ridiculous, and playing some tunes. Somehow I walked away with a fiddle in my hands. I really didn't listen to Irish music - as odd as it sounds - until about September of last year, when I got a new teacher, and after every lesson he sends me away with a new CD of the masters: Murphy, Clifford, O'Keefe, Taylor, Coleman, etc. I fell in the love with the old players, and that's what made me keep it up and stop sucking >_>
Young teachers can work, maybe - but only if they pay due respect to their forebears and have their students listen to it all, discuss it and learn from it. Otherwise - it's not really ITM in my mind.
--DtM
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: Inspiring our youth
I don't think that the ability to inspire people or the ability to provide a worthwhile educational experience has anything to do with age. I think that somebody like Padraig Rynne for example has probably emassed a wealth of experience in his years that would be equal to if not more than many people twice his age. I myself have found workshops taken from the likes of Eamon Murray just as informative as those I've taken with say June McCormack.
It comes down to your level of skill and understanding of the workings/style of the music/instrument you are teaching, and your effectiveness in communicating that understanding and concepts to others. Not your age or fashion sense.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by late in the evening
Re: Inspiring our youth
Ach, shut up the lot o' yez. If there's one thing people lose as they get older (there's many, but if there was only one), it's a sense of fun. The organisers of this "4 day kids trad music thingy" have thankfully realized this, and accomidated for it well. It' a myth that age or experience neccesarily equals skill. Most of the best players (and teachers) I've ever heard have been under 25. And who are we to decide how the tradition gets handed down - or by whom? It's (hopefully) a living tradition, and the more different kinds of teachers and teaching methods there are, the better. Probably most of the kids going to this music thingy will, in the future, have the tradition "handed to them" by lots of people, old and young, experienced people as well as complete numbskulls.
They will become better musicians from it, and The Music will become better from it.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Inspiring our youth
Ahem - cross-post.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Inspiring our youth
I think it looks like a good site - cant see anything wrong with it. Wish I had something like that when I was young.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by bb
Re: Inspiring our youth
While having younger players attract a younger audience, I don't know how beneficial it is to take extended lessons from these teachers. I do believe that after the kids are drawn in by the allure of cool young players, i think they'll stick with the music. Perhaps we can talk to the tobacco companies for some ideas? Mebbe we can take out ad's in magazines advertising hot young people playing ITM.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Inspiring our youth
Really, kris! "trendy"?? "groovy"??? I believe there are now vernacular dictionaries you can use.....
If the kids are inspired now, they can catch up with the Deep Tradition later. Didn't most of us start that way?
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Inspiring our youth
Of course, you did ask to hear from "younger sessioneers". My apologies.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Inspiring our youth
Why would it not be beneficial to take extended lessons from young teachers? I know a hellavu lot of older players who are bad as well as a hellavu lot of younger players - its nothing to do with age. At school the worst teacher I ever had had been a teacher for around 40 years - I got nothing from her - the best teacher I ever had - well - it was her first job out of uni - she was awesome. Age means nothing in terms of being a good teacher or musician - I mean c'mon - these people at this festival are hardly 10 years old or anything.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by bb
Re: Inspiring our youth
Joe CSS - don't you know that this is Be Kind To Old F*rts Week?
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Inspiring our youth
Excuse me if I quickly butt into this conversation with you youngsters. Some of we older geezers probably wish we had started playing this music when we were 10. Or less - say 3, maybe. Then we'd all be like Frankie Gavin (Who's he? I hear you say....) That's probably why some of us feel the need to encourage our kids (sometimes it goes beyond encouragement!)
I've strongly encouraged my girl to play and she does - piano, but not trad music. Fair enough, at least she has core musical skills, which hopefully will be transferable when she settles on whatever style takes her.
I don't think trad music will ever be "trendy" and I hope not - and that is its timeless attraction - it's music of space, and people, not time - the spaces being Ireland and Scotland and wherever else these people have settled. Hope that helps any reticent wannabes (oxymoron intended.)
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Inspiring our youth
I'd reckon the most important thing for your pupils is just to be playing with people of their own age and having a bit of a laugh. Establish that and technique and repetoire will surely follow in the years ahead.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Inspiring our youth
Hear Hear! When you are young, the way you get involved is less important than getting involved in the first place. Play everything! Listen to everything! Discrimination comes later.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by Innocent Bystander
Re: Inspiring our youth
The guitar teacher I took lessons from for a few years is my son's age, and I learned one heck of a lot from him. Quality of a musician and teacher is not necessarily tied to age.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Inspiring our youth
In this incidence, you're talking about children aged about 9 - 17 (ish), many of whom aren't interested in the concept of a "tradition", simply they look at the music as something they do now for their own fun and enjoyment. Given that the teachers in question are all highly skilled instrumentalists surely they are equal to anyone in terms of passing on technical skill and enabling the participants to become better players. And also consider that younger teachers frequently connect more easily with younger students
Music traditionally performs a social function and, while there is a lot to learn from the older musicians, it has to perform these social functions in today's society. The traditional ways will die if people try to keep it and modern ways of life mutually exclusive.
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Inspiring our youth
Then we're all agreed? What's wrong with this picture?
# Posted on March 9th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Inspiring our youth
I think there's nothing wrong with having a "kids" conference with only younger teachers...but I (still a teenager and haveing only played trad for about 3ish years)don't think that it should be learned only in a setting of young people. I go to fiddle camp (well, I call it that but it's really for a ll instruments) every year with all ages of students and participants...and I've learned so much from both. I've taken lessons from people from the ages of 21 to late 60s, all outstanding musicians (Jerry Holland, Liz Knowles, Patrick MAngan, and on the siungin end Julee Glaub and MArgaret Bennett), and I've made so many adult friends/mentors who have been students. (MY "Swannanoa Mommies and Daddies"). It's a good idea to get kids started together, but if the music becomes segregated by age it will lose a lot of it's heart.
# Posted on March 10th 2007 by possumawesome
Re: Inspiring our youth
a very interesting topic, and one of particular resonance to me. i'm 20, and at the end of a long night that saw the end of the second in a 20 date tour of germany, and what a night!!! what you need to do to inspire the youth is exactly what every generation - especially the older ones have done: that is to encourage them not to play traditional music or irish music etc.. (these are marketing terms, and never forget that) but have them play simply music.
i'm from donegal- an area well known for its music and check out any of the old donegal fiddle cds. - the brass fiddle, anything by johnny doherty, and the wonderful donegal fiddle album. now what do you notice?? you'll hear the french nation anthem, any amount of scottish tunes, brass band tunes etc... basicaly anything that they thought was a good tune. read the excellent 'rough guide to irish music' by geoff wallis. and note the quote by mairead ni mhaonaigh ' they didn't care as long as it was a good tune"...
to try and teach kids or anyone respect for a marketing term or an extra musical concept such as that of tradition is to me essentially false. teach them to love music. and never have them play irish music.. only music. it is the most natural way and has opened up so many wonderful experiences for me and can do the same for anyone else who dares choose the path of musical reality.
if you want to pursue this comment with me, send me an email and i will be happy to reply when i can. and btw, good move in encouraging them to go to a camp. people in the age group you're dealing with will probably not analyse the website as you did.
hope that helps and sorry for the spelling mistakes! after all this german beer, it would take quite a bit of inspiration to make me spell correctly!! ha!
all the best,
Martin Tourish.
# Posted on March 10th 2007 by martin t
Re: Inspiring our youth
inclusion is the key IMHO. If you observe many other campaigns to incude children you will see that it works. I would love to start an instrument bank, but getting the instruments to establish something like this would be out of my financial reach.
There are such things as "Take a kid fishng" this has been a successful campaign practiced all around the world with good results. Why not, "teach a kid to play" or get parents involved int he more social scene, Very quickly the kids become enthused and so do their parents. Music festivals with a well priced family ticket price would go a long way. These are a very good place for families and individuals to explore in a relaxed safe environment. Its not only about ITM,. Lets face it not everyone enjoys it as much as we do. Focus on a love of music rather than a love of genre. Introduce both kids and parents to different styles and genres, show them how much fun it is.
My kids go to the parties and the festivals, they sometimes go to sessions (although generally when they do its those nights it really gets going until the early hours). They have the choice to go or stay home, yet they like to go.
# Posted on March 10th 2007 by Joze