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Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
We have a monthly Monday session which, as I mentioned before, can be a bit variable. It's usually a mixture of musicians and singers depending on who comes in. Anyway, that's not the important thing.
There's nobody really in charge of the proceedings these days as the guy who started things off no longer comes along regularly...clash of personalities with another musician who has also ceased to visit. Anyway, we still get quite a few folk coming along but I'm fairly regular as I live just a couple of hundred yards up the road.
Last night, there were a few different people there including an ex barman(of the premises) who insisted that his friend had "a last song" and, while I tried to encourage them all to call it a day, they weren't for moving in a hurry. Now, the actual barman who was on duty..just popped his head through a couple of times and "grumped" but later called me aside and gave me "the red card" threatening to cancel the session if this happened again.
I know that, legally, it is the bar staff/manager's responsibility to clear the pub but do session members also have some moral responsibility?
Personally, I'm a bit annoyed as I was singled out just for being a regular attender. In view of the fact that none of us were getting paid and there's no clear "leader", surely it's the duty of the management and bar staff to encourage us to drink up and leave? Not that I'm condoning the thoughtlessness of some of the company, of course!
Next month, I will suggest to the others that we should make an effort to pack up at the appropriate time but I can't force them to do this. Hopefully, the guy behind the bar will also be having a better night.
Anyway, what I'm basically asking is how much responsibility do you take for "policing" your session in these situations? Or do you tend to leave certain duties to the management?
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Many players with some session edicate will take the hint when the regular session players/ session leader finishes playing and paacks his/her instrument away that the session is over.
How about saying 'one last tune' before the last set, thus signifying politely that the session is over after it.
Apart from that, I think that what happened at your session is the management's fault, not yours. I've never had to police a session in the way you've described, but have told the management not to permit certain individuals like this from being allowed in again.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
"How about saying 'one last tune' before the last set, thus signifying politely that the session is over after it."
This is what we usually do and, in the past, this has worked. The "ex barman" actually used to be in charge of the bar on the Monday and would have been the very first to moan if he couldn't get finished. However, he was in the company last night and was probably the main catalyst in causing the company to tarry a bit longer. I think this is what annoyed the duty bar man the most!
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Definately falls on the barman.I wouldnt accept the red card warning you werent even the offender.Was the Ex barman trying to wind up the situation ?.Tonight the Barman at our session just cleared the tables as we finished off the tunes and told us to go home as is the norm.ITS down to the management if they want a session its up to them to make it known when its time to finish.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Yes, you should have just packed up your instruments as usual, ignoring this interlopers musings and shrugged your shoulders at the barman. But did you ?! Or did you play along to the offending singer thus encouraging his after hours antics? I don't know as I wasn't there, but you should support the bar staff if possible especially if they are normally a friendly bunch, however there will always be nights that go awry and you really shouldn't worry too much about them just be nice to that barman next week, buy him a pint and hopefully all will be well.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
More or less its your responsibility to end your session. Though the bar has hopefully, a closing time. You should respect the bar and end it yourself. You should have a clear cut leader, or at least someone looking at the time. The bar shouldnt have to tell you to end, you should do it on your own. You are not in grade school were you have to be told what to do. But it wasnt right for him to pull you out, after all you are a regular. Oh well Learn from your mistakes I Guess.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
John J, this is where you need an American in the group to get in people's faces and get them to go! I know it sounds like a joke, and it really is an awful stereotype, but I used to work in a pub in Edinburgh many years ago and my manager always used to grab me for the social finessing and making Bloody Marys and other silly American cocktails. I was always way more friendly than everyone else! They really didn't know what to make of me. The Scots are all so reserved, everyone is supposed to know how to behave without being told, and anyone is appalled to have to be the one to be the messenger.
I would find the most outgoing among you to take responsibility for ushering people out at a certain time. You shouldn't have to do it, but better that than lose your session altogether. At this point it's just a matter of practicality. Have that person make friends with the barman as well---get on his side, make him think you're happy to do him a favor---here where I live we call it "schmoozing" and it's a pain in the arse but it will save you headaches in the long run.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Did I mention I'm completely smitten with Scotland and everyone Scottish? Seriously, I am. Just re-read that post and realized it might not have come out the way I meant it...
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
A certain Aberdeen pub has had a habit of just whipping away the unfinished drinks and shouting at everyone to stop playing. This has led to more than one good musician being banned in the ensuing altercation. And their mates boycotting in sympathy, and the session going downhill ...
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Thanks for all the replies so far. No, I had actually packed up myself so I wasn't still "playing along". I'm not blaming the "offending singer" either although he should have been aware of the time. He had just been encouraged.
Actually, I think it was all due to an unfortunate set of circumstances. There were one or two different people there including the ex barman who had worked in the bar for several years. It's possible that the guy on duty felt that his authority was a bit diminished and he chose not to assert himself in the situation. Another thing which "got his goat" was another musician(again a visitor) having a quick blow on his flute before putting it away. He(the barman)obviously thought the music was starting up again.
Hopefully, next month will pass without incident. As a regular, I perhaps should take charge of the situation but I might mention (tactfully) to the barman that he might also like to approach us at "drinking up time" too.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
I take it you were sober or relatively so, John. For whatever reason you were singled out as being the main man in the session, and thus chided, it would be so easy to shrug your shoulders and say "They're nothing to do with me, gov." (not suggesting you did that, BTW.) But if thrust into such a situation you sometimes have to act up to the part. For the sake of the session's continuity try and eat humble pie and do as yer man suggested, but at the same time make it clear that although you were the longest-serving member still present you're not actually the session leader. That way you still have the barman on your side for when shower of rowdy Hearts fans turn up, and he doesn't go away thinking maybe he made a prat of himself.
(I wish I were able to do what I've just advised!)
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
John, I think that was particularly selfish behaviour on the part of the ex-barman & visiting musician. I'd have been tempted to tell them exactly that - though whether or not I'd actually have the guts to do so is another matter altogether
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
JohnJ – To answer your question directly, it’s the bar-staff’s duty, but it’s much better for all concerned if the session finishes up without them having to intervene. If you want your session to continue at that venue, what you should do is point out to the people participating in it that the management want it to finish at a certain time, [ indeed, they have a legal obligation to do so ] - and tell them that if that doesn’t happen, in all probability, the session will fold. Musicians should take responsibility for their own actions. I have in the past actively stopped people from continuing playing/singing past time at sessions which have gone on past closing time. It doesn’t make you popular, but I can live with that. If it’s not session regulars who are insisting on playing on, you should point out to them that you play there every week, and want to be able to come back. Ask them if they really want to be responsible for killing your session off. They should also show some consideration for the bar staff who have been working all night, and very probably want to go home.
And “Yon Bad Learner” – I believe I know the session you refer to, and have seen the difficulties the bar-staff sometimes have in ending it. In the situation you describe, the bar staff were in the right, and the musicians in the wrong. It’s that simple.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
To answer your question, it's the bar's job. Especially since nobody's getting paid. Presumably you all come in fairly regularly, and spend a fair amount on alcohol (or maybe you get a discount). The bar should be happy to have y'all there--though I guess I haven't actually heard y'all play, so maybe I should hedge that one...
That said, it behooves the session-goers not to get on the bar's bad side. Best not be too-too difficult (though just a little difficult is ok).
If the ex-barman was the instigator, I would have directed the current barman in his direction, and indicated that the rest of us had already packed up (and it was therefore not our fault).
Tommy McCarthy Sr. told me stories about a couple of London bars in the 70s that used unusual tactics to clear the bars at closing time. One bar owner had a big brown dog that would come downstairs after last call and woof away at anybody who was still congregating. Another publican would drag a metal chair across the tile floor, making a scraping/screeching noise of biblical proportions until everyone left...
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
It's a nice gesture, if in a bar or restaurant, for the session leaders to bring the glasses to the bar area if they are on a table. At the big hall we're in now, we fully clean up, leave it like we found it. Session leaders and those in charge that is. Though usually many pitch in, move chairs, table back to the wall, sweep, etc.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Kenny - my sympathy's with the bar staff too. It's a consortium owned pub and they don't get paid any extra if it takes longer to finish up. But musicians with a drink in are not the most tractable people so it does take some diplomatic skills, which were spectacularly lacking in one case..
I'd say John J was approached in his situation because he seemed most approachable.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Thanks again for the comments. Bascally, they confirm what I already know and think myself but I was also interested to hear about other experiences.
It was an unfortunate set of circumstances which caught us by surprise. I think that (next month) I'll pre warn those present that the music should finish at a set time ..say 11pm. This will allow them to have a blether and drink up in good time. Then, surely, the bar staff can do the rest. A nice compromise, hopefully.
Returning glasses to the bar is good idea too, of course. I've always been trained to do this, in any case.
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
"That is awful ..."
Ottery - That one flew straight over most people's heads - or between their ankles. Thank you for neither rising above it nor ducking it. I'm sorry if it hurt.
Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
We have a monthly Monday session which, as I mentioned before, can be a bit variable. It's usually a mixture of musicians and singers depending on who comes in. Anyway, that's not the important thing.
There's nobody really in charge of the proceedings these days as the guy who started things off no longer comes along regularly...clash of personalities with another musician who has also ceased to visit. Anyway, we still get quite a few folk coming along but I'm fairly regular as I live just a couple of hundred yards up the road.
Last night, there were a few different people there including an ex barman(of the premises) who insisted that his friend had "a last song" and, while I tried to encourage them all to call it a day, they weren't for moving in a hurry. Now, the actual barman who was on duty..just popped his head through a couple of times and "grumped" but later called me aside and gave me "the red card" threatening to cancel the session if this happened again.
I know that, legally, it is the bar staff/manager's responsibility to clear the pub but do session members also have some moral responsibility?
Personally, I'm a bit annoyed as I was singled out just for being a regular attender. In view of the fact that none of us were getting paid and there's no clear "leader", surely it's the duty of the management and bar staff to encourage us to drink up and leave? Not that I'm condoning the thoughtlessness of some of the company, of course!
Next month, I will suggest to the others that we should make an effort to pack up at the appropriate time but I can't force them to do this. Hopefully, the guy behind the bar will also be having a better night.
Anyway, what I'm basically asking is how much responsibility do you take for "policing" your session in these situations? Or do you tend to leave certain duties to the management?
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Many players with some session edicate will take the hint when the regular session players/ session leader finishes playing and paacks his/her instrument away that the session is over.
How about saying 'one last tune' before the last set, thus signifying politely that the session is over after it.
Apart from that, I think that what happened at your session is the management's fault, not yours. I've never had to police a session in the way you've described, but have told the management not to permit certain individuals like this from being allowed in again.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Sinocal
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
"How about saying 'one last tune' before the last set, thus signifying politely that the session is over after it."
in causing the company to tarry a bit longer. I think this is what annoyed the duty bar man the most!
This is what we usually do and, in the past, this has worked. The "ex barman" actually used to be in charge of the bar on the Monday and would have been the very first to moan if he couldn't get finished. However, he was in the company last night and was probably the main catalyst
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Definately falls on the barman.I wouldnt accept the red card warning you werent even the offender.Was the Ex barman trying to wind up the situation ?.Tonight the Barman at our session just cleared the tables as we finished off the tunes and told us to go home as is the norm.ITS down to the management if they want a session its up to them to make it known when its time to finish.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Dphil
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Yes, you should have just packed up your instruments as usual, ignoring this interlopers musings and shrugged your shoulders at the barman. But did you ?! Or did you play along to the offending singer thus encouraging his after hours antics? I don't know as I wasn't there, but you should support the bar staff if possible especially if they are normally a friendly bunch, however there will always be nights that go awry and you really shouldn't worry too much about them just be nice to that barman next week, buy him a pint and hopefully all will be well.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by flossie
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
More or less its your responsibility to end your session. Though the bar has hopefully, a closing time. You should respect the bar and end it yourself. You should have a clear cut leader, or at least someone looking at the time. The bar shouldnt have to tell you to end, you should do it on your own. You are not in grade school were you have to be told what to do. But it wasnt right for him to pull you out, after all you are a regular. Oh well Learn from your mistakes I Guess.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Mahoney
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
John J, this is where you need an American in the group to get in people's faces and get them to go! I know it sounds like a joke, and it really is an awful stereotype, but I used to work in a pub in Edinburgh many years ago and my manager always used to grab me for the social finessing and making Bloody Marys and other silly American cocktails. I was always way more friendly than everyone else! They really didn't know what to make of me. The Scots are all so reserved, everyone is supposed to know how to behave without being told, and anyone is appalled to have to be the one to be the messenger.
I would find the most outgoing among you to take responsibility for ushering people out at a certain time. You shouldn't have to do it, but better that than lose your session altogether. At this point it's just a matter of practicality. Have that person make friends with the barman as well---get on his side, make him think you're happy to do him a favor---here where I live we call it "schmoozing" and it's a pain in the arse but it will save you headaches in the long run.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Did I mention I'm completely smitten with Scotland and everyone Scottish? Seriously, I am. Just re-read that post and realized it might not have come out the way I meant it...
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
A certain Aberdeen pub has had a habit of just whipping away the unfinished drinks and shouting at everyone to stop playing. This has led to more than one good musician being banned in the ensuing altercation. And their mates boycotting in sympathy, and the session going downhill ...
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Bren
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Thanks for all the replies so far. No, I had actually packed up myself so I wasn't still "playing along". I'm not blaming the "offending singer" either although he should have been aware of the time. He had just been encouraged.
Actually, I think it was all due to an unfortunate set of circumstances. There were one or two different people there including the ex barman who had worked in the bar for several years. It's possible that the guy on duty felt that his authority was a bit diminished and he chose not to assert himself in the situation. Another thing which "got his goat" was another musician(again a visitor) having a quick blow on his flute before putting it away. He(the barman)obviously thought the music was starting up again.
Hopefully, next month will pass without incident. As a regular, I perhaps should take charge of the situation but I might mention (tactfully) to the barman that he might also like to approach us at "drinking up time" too.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
I take it you were sober or relatively so, John. For whatever reason you were singled out as being the main man in the session, and thus chided, it would be so easy to shrug your shoulders and say "They're nothing to do with me, gov." (not suggesting you did that, BTW.) But if thrust into such a situation you sometimes have to act up to the part. For the sake of the session's continuity try and eat humble pie and do as yer man suggested, but at the same time make it clear that although you were the longest-serving member still present you're not actually the session leader. That way you still have the barman on your side for when shower of rowdy Hearts fans turn up, and he doesn't go away thinking maybe he made a prat of himself.
(I wish I were able to do what I've just advised!)
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
John, I think that was particularly selfish behaviour on the part of the ex-barman & visiting musician. I'd have been tempted to tell them exactly that - though whether or not I'd actually have the guts to do so is another matter altogether
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by On Sabbatical
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
JohnJ – To answer your question directly, it’s the bar-staff’s duty, but it’s much better for all concerned if the session finishes up without them having to intervene. If you want your session to continue at that venue, what you should do is point out to the people participating in it that the management want it to finish at a certain time, [ indeed, they have a legal obligation to do so ] - and tell them that if that doesn’t happen, in all probability, the session will fold. Musicians should take responsibility for their own actions. I have in the past actively stopped people from continuing playing/singing past time at sessions which have gone on past closing time. It doesn’t make you popular, but I can live with that. If it’s not session regulars who are insisting on playing on, you should point out to them that you play there every week, and want to be able to come back. Ask them if they really want to be responsible for killing your session off. They should also show some consideration for the bar staff who have been working all night, and very probably want to go home.
And “Yon Bad Learner” – I believe I know the session you refer to, and have seen the difficulties the bar-staff sometimes have in ending it. In the situation you describe, the bar staff were in the right, and the musicians in the wrong. It’s that simple.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
[ Seeing as you're here, Ron - will phone tonight. ]
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Ok Kenny.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by On Sabbatical
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
To answer your question, it's the bar's job. Especially since nobody's getting paid. Presumably you all come in fairly regularly, and spend a fair amount on alcohol (or maybe you get a discount). The bar should be happy to have y'all there--though I guess I haven't actually heard y'all play, so maybe I should hedge that one...
That said, it behooves the session-goers not to get on the bar's bad side. Best not be too-too difficult (though just a little difficult is ok).
If the ex-barman was the instigator, I would have directed the current barman in his direction, and indicated that the rest of us had already packed up (and it was therefore not our fault).
Tommy McCarthy Sr. told me stories about a couple of London bars in the 70s that used unusual tactics to clear the bars at closing time. One bar owner had a big brown dog that would come downstairs after last call and woof away at anybody who was still congregating. Another publican would drag a metal chair across the tile floor, making a scraping/screeching noise of biblical proportions until everyone left...
Any other good bar-clearing stories out there?
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Georgi
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
The most athletic musician, of course.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
That is awful ...
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
It's a nice gesture, if in a bar or restaurant, for the session leaders to bring the glasses to the bar area if they are on a table. At the big hall we're in now, we fully clean up, leave it like we found it. Session leaders and those in charge that is. Though usually many pitch in, move chairs, table back to the wall, sweep, etc.
# Posted on March 7th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Kenny - my sympathy's with the bar staff too. It's a consortium owned pub and they don't get paid any extra if it takes longer to finish up. But musicians with a drink in are not the most tractable people so it does take some diplomatic skills, which were spectacularly lacking in one case..
I'd say John J was approached in his situation because he seemed most approachable.
# Posted on March 7th 2007 by Bren
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
Thanks again for the comments. Bascally, they confirm what I already know and think myself but I was also interested to hear about other experiences.
It was an unfortunate set of circumstances which caught us by surprise. I think that (next month) I'll pre warn those present that the music should finish at a set time ..say 11pm. This will allow them to have a blether and drink up in good time. Then, surely, the bar staff can do the rest. A nice compromise, hopefully.
Returning glasses to the bar is good idea too, of course. I've always been trained to do this, in any case.
# Posted on March 7th 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: Whose responsibility is it to clear the bar after a session?
"That is awful ..."
Ottery - That one flew straight over most people's heads - or between their ankles. Thank you for neither rising above it nor ducking it. I'm sorry if it hurt.
# Posted on March 7th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig