My daughter (aged 22) is looking to take up the harp. She's played a few, is an accomplished pianist already and thinks she wants a floor harp, 34 strings or more and semitone levers. She likes the traditional clarsach design. Because of her limited budget I'm looking at the various kits that are available.
We've discounted the pakistani ebay stuff and Early Music shop too as I've been told it's from the same country of origin - a pity coz there's a sale on!
We're in the UK but I like what I've seen and heard about Stoney End harps and the quality of their kits. We also had a little loook at a Wye harp from Border Harps http://www.border-harps.co.uk/. which sounded lovely.
As a non harp player something puzzles me. I've seen various players leaning the harp back against their shoulder so that the strings assume a vertical position. It appears to be the correct way to play. However a few harps have strings with less rake than others. The Border Wye harp appears to have almost vertical strings (more llike a pedal harp) when standing upright on the floor. What happens when you lean it back - or don't you? That seems it could be deeply significant to me.
Any other suggestions or advice would be gratefully received.
Jay-eye, one thought occurs to me - is your daughter left or right handed?
The reason I ask is because Mrs Ptarmigan also plays Harp & is left handed, so she rests the Harp on her LEFT shoulder, which incidentally is, I believe, the traditional shoulder for the Harp to rest on. However, I believe most right handed Harp players rest them on their right shoulder.
Now this might not seem very important but bear in mind which side of the Harp the half-tone levers are on. If they are on the 'wrong' side it will be very, very difficult to change them mid-tune!
P.S. Incidentally, Mrs Ptarmigan has been playing one of those dreaded Pakastani Harps for the past eight years, for weddings & in & out of pub sessions every week & it's given her great service & is still going strong! I guess she was just lucky.
She also has a Derek Bell Harp but this is strung in a classical fashion & as the strings are far too tight, it is just not suitable for playing Trad music on - an expensive ornament!
If it's any help I sometimes lean the harp back - you have to with a pedal harp. However, I often don't bother with my clarsach - depends if I'm in the mood!
If you're anywhere near Gloucestershire, I'd recommend you visit Morley Harps http://www.morleyharps.co.uk/ as they have a great selection. They also import the Ravenna models from Dusty Strings, which are some of the best small harps around. The Ravenna comes in a 34-string model and is the most amazing harp. I love it. It has a floor-foot which comes down from inside the harp, so you can play it standing or sitting (although standing it's not so stable). That's about £2000.
However, if you're on a budget, you could try looking for a second hand Pilgrim harp (which is gut-strung and is a very good learning harp as it's pretty unforgiving). That's the one I play on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlKx3YPL5I and you could also contact Pilgrim for their secondhand list at http://www.pilgrimharps.co.uk/ and then click on "Advertise for harps" - although that drew a blank page for me so you might want to phone them. Pilgrim makes some great models, and the secondhand list has all makes at pretty good prices (I remember from last time I saw their list). They can post them out to you.
Just a thought - it does surprise people that the strings are quite pricey. I have a full spare set for my Pilgrim, and they cost around £320 for a full set. Not cheap!!
You might want to check out the Camac near the bottom at £800 - that could be worth a look but they don't really "sparkle" the way the newer Camac ones do. It's probably OK and a good instrument to start on.
However, I know you asked about kits so I'm not really sure I'm answering your question. I would advise you keep an eye on ebay - that's where I bought my wire-string harp and it's absolutely beautiful...and that was about £500.
They've recently started making their student harp with 34 strings now, and comes in at the £1500 mark.
I've been playing starfishes proffesionally for years (I own a glencoe and a mamore) and can not reccommend them more! Their after sales service is fantastic.
I've several pupils who've bought harps of ebay, and they're pretty low quality. I also owned a border harp (26string one) for a while but sold it as it wasn't that great.
You should always tilt your harp back...they're designed to be played like that...otherwise you'll be cowering over it which will lead to bad back problems, and it certainly won't help your technique.
Even pedal harpists tilt their harp back, though tend to hold it between their knees, relieving their sholdour of the pressure (pedal harps a v. heavy)
I she's deadly serious you guys should pop up to the edinburgh harp festival.
Plenty of workshops and concerts, but more importantly all the harp makes from around europe (including all the ones mentioned) exhibit there, so your daughter and see all the harps, try them out, speak to the makers and decide.
Its how I chose which harp to go for, and its where I encourage all my pupils to go, when they're looking to buy a harp.
I think that's brilliant advice Rachel. Actually, there's nothing like playing one to see if it's right. I can think of a few harps I've tried at Edinburgh that I've fallen in love with (and a few that were just plaing awkard / heavy / ugly)! And a rider to my ebay comment - it is really risky unless you know the particular instrument already.
You might also like to look at http://perso.orange.fr/clarsach/fr_pages/fr_menu.htm
It may appear to be French (well it is) but the woman concerned is English.
Does anyone else have experience of the Wylie harps?
This is a good resource for harpy stuff. Not as active but more on-topic than here.
The Pakistani stuff has a very poor rep among many harp players because they are stamped out to look good, but the time-consuming fine craftmanship that makes a harp *sound* good is absent. Or so I've heard.
The CW on what to buy in a harp runs - as many strings as you can afford up to 34 or so. A smaller range limits what one can do with the left hand, and the tension may be diferent from a larger harp, requiring a different technique. Finally "lap harps" are difficult to learn on because they can be hard to play and keep steady simultaneously.
You might also see about renting a harp to start out. Some teachers can put you in touch with someone with a harp to rent. In the US, some harp dealers also have rental harps and rental/purchase programs where some or all of your rental can be applied to the purchase of a harp. Does anyone know if this arrangement is available in the UK?
The advice to look into the Edinburgh harp Festival is excellent. Harpists/harpers love to talk about their harps, and you'll get to pet a lot of harps along with good advice.
Generally harps are designed to be leaned back, some quite a bit and some very little. And the amount of leaning of a particular harp will depend on the size of the player and the height of the seating. It often helps to raise a small harp up off the floor. As it turns out, I play some of my harps leaned back (raised up off the floor to do it) and two of them not leaned back at all, or sometimes leaned slightly forward, which is weird but works for me in certain situations. I wouldn't actually recommend it to anyone else, though.
The problem with the Pakistani made harps is that they are not well designed and often poorly constructed out of materials that are not suitable either for the instrument or for the climate(s). Mrs. P's harp experience is the exception, not the rule.
Harp on the left shoulder is *one* traditional way to play the harp, preferably on a harp with the strings and pegs on the left side of the neck (the curved part at the top where the tuning pegs are, in case you don't know your harp anatomy yet).. Medieval, renaissance and baroque-era harp illustrations shows harps on the right and left shoulders as well as in the middle of the chest (keeping in mind that sometime you'll find the same illustration depicting it both ways because it's been flipped in the book or web page).
The harp yahoo group has members in the UK as well as the US (and elsewhere). I encourage you to join (if you haven't already) and ask there about harps. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Harplist/
Yes Tracie, that's why I qualified my story by saying that I guessed Mrs Pt was probably just lucky with her Pakastani Harp.
As for the Edinburgh Harp Fest, I remember attendeding the very first one & then we popped over again, a couple of years ago, & boy oh boy has that event grown! There was even a Hammered Dulcimer maker amongst the makers, so I guess the event has come of age!
Well worth a visit.
Tracie, didn't you mean .... Welcome to the wonderful world of weird Harp players!
"Beating Harps" by Sileas came out in the late 80s and was a very good album IMO. Some songs. Don't know what harp types the duo used, or if it's still obtainable. Material as far as I remember Scottish trad, or new.
Aye, I remember Silieas in the late 70s, before they were Sileas - twa bonny lassies playin' Harps in Bell's, one Gut strung & one Wire strung, if I remember correctly!
"Hammered dulcimer and harp work quite well." - Yes Mark, Mrs Pt & I have been using that combination together for the past 4 years, to great effect - it's a braw sound!
We haven't tried Harp & Accordion yet but we regularly use Concertina with Harp & it sounds quite nice.
Thanks for all the responses so far, I appreciate being able to tap into your experience and collective wisdom.
We've had a look at a couple of secondhand harps but I don't think she fallen in love with one yet!
She's trying to stay under £1000 because of other financial pressures, that's why I'm looking at kits - wanting to do my bit to try and help (my cheque book is unable to rise to the occasion just now!)
She's actiually a Leftie but plays all her musical instruments right handed.
Talk to any group of musicians and you'll hear horror stories concerning a variety of musical instruments that can't be played/tuned/whatever and they all seem to come from certain specific parts of the world. The price is attractive but not the heartache if it all goes wrong.
Any more comments anyone?
Anyone tried Stoney End harps or even made up one of their kits?
Any EMS harp users who can reassure me?
I agree - concertina and harp is a great combo, I think - and concertina and violin can blend incredibly well together and work as a trio. Actually, most sustained instruments work well as a contrast / complement to plucked instruments.
I ask about the accordion as I tried some out with an accordionist yesterday, having an exploratory bash (and squeeze). I'm not totally convinced since the accordion's dynamics can be quite brutal and the harp is pretty quiet and easily drowned (OK, I've left myself open to all manner of abuse there!!).
I think hammer dulcimer is a fabulous sound - I'm a sucker for anything percussive like that.
Harp and Northumbrian Pipes can sound lovely. Corrina Hewat and Kathryn Tickell play these on their recent album "The Sky Didn't Fall", and I think this combination has been used on one or more older albums, but I can't recall by whom.
Sorry I'm late but just saw this post today. I would recommend looking into a second hand Aoyama harp for your kind of budget. I would say that as I *love* mine. A secondary advantage is that they seem almost unwreckable, so great for dragging around to sessions if that's what she would like to do.
I think the model you need is called romantically called 130 these days (the older ones, like mine are 120) and those have 34 strings. There's a slightly larger 140 or 140D model that doesn't transport as easily but would be good if you only played at home.
(Disclaimer:I'm not 100% sure of the model numbers)
If you do go down the Aoyama route I wouldn't buy them sight unseen (and more importantly sound unheard). They are production-line harps but the production line seems to yield winners every once in a while, though I've also heard really dodgy ones. So a great variety of price-quality ratios are out there for this make but you can net a real bargain if you are lucky or put in the work.
Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Hi Harpies.
My daughter (aged 22) is looking to take up the harp. She's played a few, is an accomplished pianist already and thinks she wants a floor harp, 34 strings or more and semitone levers. She likes the traditional clarsach design. Because of her limited budget I'm looking at the various kits that are available.
We've discounted the pakistani ebay stuff and Early Music shop too as I've been told it's from the same country of origin - a pity coz there's a sale on!
We're in the UK but I like what I've seen and heard about Stoney End harps and the quality of their kits. We also had a little loook at a Wye harp from Border Harps http://www.border-harps.co.uk/. which sounded lovely.
As a non harp player something puzzles me. I've seen various players leaning the harp back against their shoulder so that the strings assume a vertical position. It appears to be the correct way to play. However a few harps have strings with less rake than others. The Border Wye harp appears to have almost vertical strings (more llike a pedal harp) when standing upright on the floor. What happens when you lean it back - or don't you? That seems it could be deeply significant to me.
Any other suggestions or advice would be gratefully received.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Jay-eye
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Jay-eye, one thought occurs to me - is your daughter left or right handed?
The reason I ask is because Mrs Ptarmigan also plays Harp & is left handed, so she rests the Harp on her LEFT shoulder, which incidentally is, I believe, the traditional shoulder for the Harp to rest on. However, I believe most right handed Harp players rest them on their right shoulder.
Now this might not seem very important but bear in mind which side of the Harp the half-tone levers are on. If they are on the 'wrong' side it will be very, very difficult to change them mid-tune!
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
P.S. Incidentally, Mrs Ptarmigan has been playing one of those dreaded Pakastani Harps for the past eight years, for weddings & in & out of pub sessions every week & it's given her great service & is still going strong! I guess she was just lucky.
She also has a Derek Bell Harp but this is strung in a classical fashion & as the strings are far too tight, it is just not suitable for playing Trad music on - an expensive ornament!
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Hi
If it's any help I sometimes lean the harp back - you have to with a pedal harp. However, I often don't bother with my clarsach - depends if I'm in the mood!
If you're anywhere near Gloucestershire, I'd recommend you visit Morley Harps http://www.morleyharps.co.uk/ as they have a great selection. They also import the Ravenna models from Dusty Strings, which are some of the best small harps around. The Ravenna comes in a 34-string model and is the most amazing harp. I love it. It has a floor-foot which comes down from inside the harp, so you can play it standing or sitting (although standing it's not so stable). That's about £2000.
However, if you're on a budget, you could try looking for a second hand Pilgrim harp (which is gut-strung and is a very good learning harp as it's pretty unforgiving). That's the one I play on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlKx3YPL5I and you could also contact Pilgrim for their secondhand list at http://www.pilgrimharps.co.uk/ and then click on "Advertise for harps" - although that drew a blank page for me so you might want to phone them. Pilgrim makes some great models, and the secondhand list has all makes at pretty good prices (I remember from last time I saw their list). They can post them out to you.
Just a thought - it does surprise people that the strings are quite pricey. I have a full spare set for my Pilgrim, and they cost around £320 for a full set. Not cheap!!
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Jay-eye,
What is wrong with product from Pakistan?
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Hi Jay-eye - just found the secondhand harp page on the Pilgrim site: it's at http://www.pilgrimharps.co.uk/2nd/2ndhand.htm
You might want to check out the Camac near the bottom at £800 - that could be worth a look but they don't really "sparkle" the way the newer Camac ones do. It's probably OK and a good instrument to start on.
However, I know you asked about kits so I'm not really sure I'm answering your question. I would advise you keep an eye on ebay - that's where I bought my wire-string harp and it's absolutely beautiful...and that was about £500.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
starfish designs make beautiful clarsachs.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by sarahjfiddle
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Yes check out http://www.starfishdesigns.co.uk
They've recently started making their student harp with 34 strings now, and comes in at the £1500 mark.
I've been playing starfishes proffesionally for years (I own a glencoe and a mamore) and can not reccommend them more! Their after sales service is fantastic.
I've several pupils who've bought harps of ebay, and they're pretty low quality. I also owned a border harp (26string one) for a while but sold it as it wasn't that great.
http://www.myspace.com/rachelhair if you want to hear what a starfish harp sound like.
You should always tilt your harp back...they're designed to be played like that...otherwise you'll be cowering over it which will lead to bad back problems, and it certainly won't help your technique.
Even pedal harpists tilt their harp back, though tend to hold it between their knees, relieving their sholdour of the pressure (pedal harps a v. heavy)
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by rachrach
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
I she's deadly serious you guys should pop up to the edinburgh harp festival.
Plenty of workshops and concerts, but more importantly all the harp makes from around europe (including all the ones mentioned) exhibit there, so your daughter and see all the harps, try them out, speak to the makers and decide.
Its how I chose which harp to go for, and its where I encourage all my pupils to go, when they're looking to buy a harp.
http://www.harpfestival.co.uk/
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by rachrach
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
I think that's brilliant advice Rachel. Actually, there's nothing like playing one to see if it's right. I can think of a few harps I've tried at Edinburgh that I've fallen in love with (and a few that were just plaing awkard / heavy / ugly)! And a rider to my ebay comment - it is really risky unless you know the particular instrument already.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
You might also like to look at
http://perso.orange.fr/clarsach/fr_pages/fr_menu.htm
It may appear to be French (well it is) but the woman concerned is English.
Does anyone else have experience of the Wylie harps?
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
http://www.harpcolumn.com/
This is a good resource for harpy stuff. Not as active but more on-topic than here.
The Pakistani stuff has a very poor rep among many harp players because they are stamped out to look good, but the time-consuming fine craftmanship that makes a harp *sound* good is absent. Or so I've heard.
The CW on what to buy in a harp runs - as many strings as you can afford up to 34 or so. A smaller range limits what one can do with the left hand, and the tension may be diferent from a larger harp, requiring a different technique. Finally "lap harps" are difficult to learn on because they can be hard to play and keep steady simultaneously.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
You might also see about renting a harp to start out. Some teachers can put you in touch with someone with a harp to rent. In the US, some harp dealers also have rental harps and rental/purchase programs where some or all of your rental can be applied to the purchase of a harp. Does anyone know if this arrangement is available in the UK?
The advice to look into the Edinburgh harp Festival is excellent. Harpists/harpers love to talk about their harps, and you'll get to pet a lot of harps along with good advice.
Generally harps are designed to be leaned back, some quite a bit and some very little. And the amount of leaning of a particular harp will depend on the size of the player and the height of the seating. It often helps to raise a small harp up off the floor. As it turns out, I play some of my harps leaned back (raised up off the floor to do it) and two of them not leaned back at all, or sometimes leaned slightly forward, which is weird but works for me in certain situations. I wouldn't actually recommend it to anyone else, though.
The problem with the Pakistani made harps is that they are not well designed and often poorly constructed out of materials that are not suitable either for the instrument or for the climate(s). Mrs. P's harp experience is the exception, not the rule.
Harp on the left shoulder is *one* traditional way to play the harp, preferably on a harp with the strings and pegs on the left side of the neck (the curved part at the top where the tuning pegs are, in case you don't know your harp anatomy yet).. Medieval, renaissance and baroque-era harp illustrations shows harps on the right and left shoulders as well as in the middle of the chest (keeping in mind that sometime you'll find the same illustration depicting it both ways because it's been flipped in the book or web page).
The harp yahoo group has members in the UK as well as the US (and elsewhere). I encourage you to join (if you haven't already) and ask there about harps.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Harplist/
Welcome to the wonderful weird world of harps!
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Tracie
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Yes Tracie, that's why I qualified my story by saying that I guessed Mrs Pt was probably just lucky with her Pakastani Harp.
As for the Edinburgh Harp Fest, I remember attendeding the very first one & then we popped over again, a couple of years ago, & boy oh boy has that event grown! There was even a Hammered Dulcimer maker amongst the makers, so I guess the event has come of age!
Well worth a visit.
Tracie, didn't you mean .... Welcome to the wonderful world of weird Harp players!
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Is that a player of hammered dulcimer players, or a dulcimer player that had been drinking solidly?!
PS Hammered dulcimer and harp work quite well.
Anyone tried harp and accordion?
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Oops - that fell flat... comes of trying to type when I should be asleep!!
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
You've heard of The Poozies?
Speaking of harp bands, anyone have any reccomendations for Poozie/Sileas-like stuff?
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
"Beating Harps" by Sileas came out in the late 80s and was a very good album IMO. Some songs. Don't know what harp types the duo used, or if it's still obtainable. Material as far as I remember Scottish trad, or new.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Aye, I remember Silieas in the late 70s, before they were Sileas - twa bonny lassies playin' Harps in Bell's, one Gut strung & one Wire strung, if I remember correctly!
"Hammered dulcimer and harp work quite well." - Yes Mark, Mrs Pt & I have been using that combination together for the past 4 years, to great effect - it's a braw sound!
We haven't tried Harp & Accordion yet but we regularly use Concertina with Harp & it sounds quite nice.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Thanks for all the responses so far, I appreciate being able to tap into your experience and collective wisdom.
We've had a look at a couple of secondhand harps but I don't think she fallen in love with one yet!
She's trying to stay under £1000 because of other financial pressures, that's why I'm looking at kits - wanting to do my bit to try and help (my cheque book is unable to rise to the occasion just now!)
She's actiually a Leftie but plays all her musical instruments right handed.
Talk to any group of musicians and you'll hear horror stories concerning a variety of musical instruments that can't be played/tuned/whatever and they all seem to come from certain specific parts of the world. The price is attractive but not the heartache if it all goes wrong.
Any more comments anyone?
Anyone tried Stoney End harps or even made up one of their kits?
Any EMS harp users who can reassure me?
Thanks for your continued interest.....
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Jay-eye
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
I agree - concertina and harp is a great combo, I think - and concertina and violin can blend incredibly well together and work as a trio. Actually, most sustained instruments work well as a contrast / complement to plucked instruments.
I ask about the accordion as I tried some out with an accordionist yesterday, having an exploratory bash (and squeeze). I'm not totally convinced since the accordion's dynamics can be quite brutal and the harp is pretty quiet and easily drowned (OK, I've left myself open to all manner of abuse there!!).
I think hammer dulcimer is a fabulous sound - I'm a sucker for anything percussive like that.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Harp and Northumbrian Pipes can sound lovely. Corrina Hewat and Kathryn Tickell play these on their recent album "The Sky Didn't Fall", and I think this combination has been used on one or more older albums, but I can't recall by whom.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Speaking of Northumbrian Pipes Mark, they can also go well with Hammered Dulcimer - check out the duet playing of Adrian Schofield & Jenny Coxon.
# Posted on March 5th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
Sorry I'm late but just saw this post today. I would recommend looking into a second hand Aoyama harp for your kind of budget. I would say that as I *love* mine. A secondary advantage is that they seem almost unwreckable, so great for dragging around to sessions if that's what she would like to do.
I think the model you need is called romantically called 130 these days (the older ones, like mine are 120) and those have 34 strings. There's a slightly larger 140 or 140D model that doesn't transport as easily but would be good if you only played at home.
(Disclaimer:I'm not 100% sure of the model numbers)
If you do go down the Aoyama route I wouldn't buy them sight unseen (and more importantly sound unheard). They are production-line harps but the production line seems to yield winners every once in a while, though I've also heard really dodgy ones. So a great variety of price-quality ratios are out there for this make but you can net a real bargain if you are lucky or put in the work.
Good luck.
# Posted on March 6th 2007 by SL*
Re: Calling all Harpists! Advice needed
...and let us know what you go for, and how it works out!!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Mark Harmer