I have a student who has been playing tin whistle for over two years. Recently (past 6 months), he has had very severe rhythm problems. I have tried making him tap it out on a drum, count the beats, say "alligator" in time to the tune, and various other tricks, but it simply is not clicking. He is able to play with me, and after we work on it he plays well. Then next week he has the same troubles, and we have to do it all over. I tried recording it for him, but that doesn't seem to help either. Does anybody have advice?
Seriously, if he starts to answer the music physically, whether or not he has two left feet or not, it will work wonders... Like tone deafness, rythm deafness is usually the result of not having music in your life as a child, or at least limited exposures. It has been tested time and time again and both can be resolved positively. So, there is always help, but taking up dance, and really, any type, will set his gears and give him a better understanding of rhythm, as well as that reaching his fingers sooner rather than later...
Rob's suggestion is good to, but as much ear training as you can get, but as they say, getting involved in anything physically will work wonders. You only retain a small amount of what you are told, but what you do ~ and the more of your physical self involved, the better... So ~ dance, but using a drum machine or other rhythm device can also help ~ even better ~ get as much exposure to live music as you can, and recordings don't hurt either... Get drenched in it, dripping wet with rhythm... If he doesn't already read music, that can help too, to see the visual representation.
When working with those with a disadvantage, the many faces of learning disabilities, the more angles you can come up with the better chance you have that something will work. Some people work well with visual representations of music, and the dots, once you understand them, and their limitations, can speak to places in the brain other things cannot... The trick is to not take it as gospel, or to be ruled or dependant on them... There are not only many types of disability, but many shades too. Most of us have some level of such limitation, but throughout our lives they don't always get revealed...
Dance ! LIke ceolachan says. And dance some more. I really learned the rhythm of polkas and slides by dancing polkas and slides. Those are obvious, though. Learn to dance and the music makes so much sense.
Dancing is the answer . . . athough if you have poor rhythm sense it will be very difficult. It is fascinating in a change partner dance to adapt yourself to your new partner's timing . .. some being slightly behind or ahead of the beat and then the minute intervals between the steps (swing) is very subtlle.
With severe cases Marching is the remedy.
I have worked with the arhythmic, and I've never known anyone that couldn't eventually overcome their tone-deafness or arhythmia in time... I did discover that with most it was a lack of confidence and a hesitation because of that which made them late or early or flat or sharp... Getting them to "LET GO", was tough, and some tended to want to analyze it rather than just doing what I asked them to do, to have faith and just do, without worrying about where or when. Yes, they might be all over the place to start with, but letting go eventually allowed them to become more centered, whether with pitch or with time...
Another trick that works for some, but not all, is to get them used to keeping time with their feet, another physical extension to the rhythm. Also, following Alan's suggestion, a walk out in the open with a bit of lilting ~ and marching along... The concept of time and timing and rhythm can also be addressed that way, through lilting or dawdling, mouth or pus music. You can also use words and deal with the rhythms of speech, and introduce the likes of iambic pentameter and phrasing that can represent the music that way too... That can be a kick, like "jiggidy, jiggidy!"
Sorry about Irish spelling, in English it has a second 's' ~ "puss", Scottish & Irish, from the Irish 'pus', meaning 'lip' or 'mouth' ~ another word for 'mouth' or 'face'. So, "Shut up!" can also be "Shut your puss!" The pronunciation is as in English, 'puss'...like the contraction for 'pussy', a cat...
Or, if we were making a goat of someone ~ point at them and say "Pus!", followed by placing the index finger against the lips for the equivalent of "Shush!" or "Shuddupayoface!"
I also learned a lot of rhythm by dancing (unfortunately I still cant dance...), but my (classical) orchestra teacher uses random words in the tunes...like "alligator", but you really have to change the words every time since every word is accented differently (hers normally have to do with food.)
We've had "I want pizza, I want pizza, I want pizza, Give me some!" (For the exciting boat-chase parts of Pirates of the Carribbean)
Strawberry (one of her favorites)
And there's also an interesting recording of an a capella version of Pahelbel's Canon where each part is a different group singing a word or phrase relating to Mexican food, if you're short on ideas.
(It starts out with a bass going Guaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa caaaaaaaaaaaaa mooooooooooo leeeeeeeeeeee, Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa moooooooooooo leeeeeeeeeee...)
Not true McKnowall, simply not true at all! My legs would never hold up to dancing. This doesn't mean that I'm unable to sense what they are to do if they were able. Now this is not to say that the advice of dancing to help strengthen one’s sense of rhythm is inappropriate, just to say that it is not the only measure as “Period” would indicate.
I have been working on my rhythm, being sometimes rhythm-impaired myself.
I've come to the conclusion that there's always a lot of different things to concentrate on when playing/learning. He might not even be able to hear when his own rhythm goes out. Hearing when someone else's rhythm goes it out is easier.
So firstly, for the most rhythm-impaired: Can they tell when someone elses rhythm goes out? If not then forget about playing for the time being and all the distractions that come with it. Simply practice being able to identify whether someone else playing music is in rhythm or out. Play some 'in rhythm' tunes. Then play out of rhythm. If they need a point of reference, can they tap/clap along.
The second question is, when their own rhythm is going out while they themselves are playing, can they hear that it is?
I find this particularly has happened to me, and the *cure* has always been to record myself playing and then during listening back, to listen *only* for the rhythm. Usually its very obvious to me then, but if it wasn't I would suggest beating in time with my foot while listening to the recording.
I found playing along to a metronome only helps if you don't ignore when your own rhythm deviates from the metronomes rhythm. Sometimes the rhythm-impaired person hears what they want to hear (unintentionally), and even a beating metronome doesn't alert them to the fact that they went out of time. Recording themselves while they play along to a metronome or CD might help. When they listen to the recording back, they can take a step back from their playing and *really* listen to see if they are keeping exact time to the metronome recording.
Thirdly: they might be able to hear rhythm OK, but for other reasons their rhythm goes off. The poor rhythm is the effect but not the cause. For example it might be a technical difficulty with the instrument that makes the person play certain notes out of time, for example too short. I play the fiddle and often it is just before/after a difficult bit eg a string crossing, a bow change, a roll etc, that the rhythm goes wrong. In which case, this is not a rhythm issue at all, but a need to practice this aspect of playing my instrument. But the first battle with this is to identify *exactly* where the rhythm goes wrong.
For example, is there a sudden rush between notes 10 & 11? ie am I not giving note 10 its full rhymic value, thereby throwing out the rhythm.
This then might not be a problem about rhythm at all, just the technical ability to play the two notes at the right speed: even a muscular spasm.
I have been practicing one cure for this, and this is to 'exentuate the opposite'. If I have a tendency to play a quaver too short before a crotchet, then I play the phrase playing the dodgy quaver with double its rhythmic value, playing all the other notes with their correct rhythmic values (ie making that quaver super-long). Yeah I know it makes the tune sound all wrong, but it is just a temporary 'exercise' I do this a number of times. Then go back to trying to playing the phrase with proper rhythmic values, and it sometimes just cures it.
I just want to really encourage you, Red Crow to help them solve their problem. If a teacher doesn't solve their problem, who will? Most people are too polite to tell someone that their rhythm is out. I know somoene who has very bad rhythm, although they've been playing for years in sessions. They would actually not be that bad a player if they could only sort out their rhythm, but they can't really hear that they have a problem. They go to workshops, but here commonly the emphasis is on how to phrase the music eg how to make a jig sound like a jig, or giving ideas about putting the emphasis on the 2nd beat of the tune etc. 'Rashers & Sausages' and suchlike won't help the most rhythm-impaired people. For them there is more urgent issue of how to even vaguely stay between the (imaginary) bar-lines and be bearable to play along with.
Nice one 'dontshoutout'... There is also the pairing of the suggestion to 'record' with that of using a 'metronome'. The grace is that a good metronome will have a volume button, as well as one for tempo. That potentially irritating tick-tock could help a person hear where things are out of synch. My own metronome is like a drum machine, several tones and rhythmic possibilities. I have used it in that past to address such perception problems, and we always get a good laugh out of it. I've also used it to help get folks into a groove for playing for dance, to build a ceili band... As long as it isn't abused or over used, it is a good tool. As said previously, the more angles you approach a problem like this from, the more likely you are to hit on what works for any 'individual'...
Let us know what you discover 'Red Crow', how things work out...
The other problem 'dontshoutout' are the folks who think they are beyond any problems, even when several people tell them they've got one. It is worse when it is the sort who turn it back on you ~ "I haven't got a problem, it's the rest of you..."
But, this is a case where honesty abounds and is appreciated. Best of luck Red Crow... If you ever see this...
rhythm issues
rhythm issues
I have a student who has been playing tin whistle for over two years. Recently (past 6 months), he has had very severe rhythm problems. I have tried making him tap it out on a drum, count the beats, say "alligator" in time to the tune, and various other tricks, but it simply is not clicking. He is able to play with me, and after we work on it he plays well. Then next week he has the same troubles, and we have to do it all over. I tried recording it for him, but that doesn't seem to help either. Does anybody have advice?
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Red Crow
Re: rhythm issues
Dance!
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: rhythm issues
i have terrible rhythm as well. what helped me was playing with a drum machine. a metronome wasn't as successful, but helped as well
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: rhythm issues
Seriously, if he starts to answer the music physically, whether or not he has two left feet or not, it will work wonders... Like tone deafness, rythm deafness is usually the result of not having music in your life as a child, or at least limited exposures. It has been tested time and time again and both can be resolved positively. So, there is always help, but taking up dance, and really, any type, will set his gears and give him a better understanding of rhythm, as well as that reaching his fingers sooner rather than later...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: rhythm issues
Rob's suggestion is good to, but as much ear training as you can get, but as they say, getting involved in anything physically will work wonders. You only retain a small amount of what you are told, but what you do ~ and the more of your physical self involved, the better... So ~ dance, but using a drum machine or other rhythm device can also help ~ even better ~ get as much exposure to live music as you can, and recordings don't hurt either... Get drenched in it, dripping wet with rhythm... If he doesn't already read music, that can help too, to see the visual representation.
When working with those with a disadvantage, the many faces of learning disabilities, the more angles you can come up with the better chance you have that something will work. Some people work well with visual representations of music, and the dots, once you understand them, and their limitations, can speak to places in the brain other things cannot... The trick is to not take it as gospel, or to be ruled or dependant on them... There are not only many types of disability, but many shades too. Most of us have some level of such limitation, but throughout our lives they don't always get revealed...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: rhythm issues
There are 3 kinds of people in the world....Those who can count and those who cannot.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by lamh trom
Re: rhythm issues
There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who do not.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: rhythm issues
There are 2 kinds of people in the world - those who think that there are 2 kinds of people in the world and those who do not.
How many kinds there are off-world is a topic for another thread.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: rhythm issues
Dance ! LIke ceolachan says. And dance some more. I really learned the rhythm of polkas and slides by dancing polkas and slides. Those are obvious, though. Learn to dance and the music makes so much sense.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by John Culhane
Re: rhythm issues
If you can't dance, you can't drum. Period. .
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: rhythm issues
Like the guys say, it's dance music and calls out to be embodied.
By the way, there are three kinds of people. And I'm not the kind to tell you what the other two are.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: rhythm issues
Agree with ceolachan, 100%. Works wonders.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by EastPole
Re: rhythm issues
There are two types of people - those who can drum and those who can't but think because they can't then no-one else can either.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by mikegrace1
Re: rhythm issues
Dancing is the answer . . . athough if you have poor rhythm sense it will be very difficult. It is fascinating in a change partner dance to adapt yourself to your new partner's timing . .. some being slightly behind or ahead of the beat and then the minute intervals between the steps (swing) is very subtlle.
With severe cases Marching is the remedy.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Alancorsini
Re: rhythm issues
I like that Alan ~ marching...
I have worked with the arhythmic, and I've never known anyone that couldn't eventually overcome their tone-deafness or arhythmia in time... I did discover that with most it was a lack of confidence and a hesitation because of that which made them late or early or flat or sharp... Getting them to "LET GO", was tough, and some tended to want to analyze it rather than just doing what I asked them to do, to have faith and just do, without worrying about where or when. Yes, they might be all over the place to start with, but letting go eventually allowed them to become more centered, whether with pitch or with time...
Another trick that works for some, but not all, is to get them used to keeping time with their feet, another physical extension to the rhythm. Also, following Alan's suggestion, a walk out in the open with a bit of lilting ~ and marching along... The concept of time and timing and rhythm can also be addressed that way, through lilting or dawdling, mouth or pus music. You can also use words and deal with the rhythms of speech, and introduce the likes of iambic pentameter and phrasing that can represent the music that way too... That can be a kick, like "jiggidy, jiggidy!"
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: rhythm issues
Thanks. Looks like we're going to have a dancing lesson next week.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Red Crow
Re: rhythm issues
What's "pus music"? Just curious ...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: rhythm issues
Sorry about Irish spelling, in English it has a second 's' ~ "puss", Scottish & Irish, from the Irish 'pus', meaning 'lip' or 'mouth' ~ another word for 'mouth' or 'face'. So, "Shut up!" can also be "Shut your puss!" The pronunciation is as in English, 'puss'...like the contraction for 'pussy', a cat...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Or, if we were making a goat of someone ~ point at them and say "Pus!", followed by placing the index finger against the lips for the equivalent of "Shush!" or "Shuddupayoface!"
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Alternate meaning ~ "Use your ears not your mouth!"
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: rhythm issues
I also learned a lot of rhythm by dancing (unfortunately I still cant dance...), but my (classical) orchestra teacher uses random words in the tunes...like "alligator", but you really have to change the words every time since every word is accented differently (hers normally have to do with food.)
We've had "I want pizza, I want pizza, I want pizza, Give me some!" (For the exciting boat-chase parts of Pirates of the Carribbean)
Strawberry (one of her favorites)
And there's also an interesting recording of an a capella version of Pahelbel's Canon where each part is a different group singing a word or phrase relating to Mexican food, if you're short on ideas.
(It starts out with a bass going Guaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa caaaaaaaaaaaaa mooooooooooo leeeeeeeeeeee, Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa moooooooooooo leeeeeeeeeee...)
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by possumawesome
Re: rhythm issues
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: rhythm issues
"If you can't dance, you can't drum. Period. ."
Not true McKnowall, simply not true at all! My legs would never hold up to dancing. This doesn't mean that I'm unable to sense what they are to do if they were able. Now this is not to say that the advice of dancing to help strengthen one’s sense of rhythm is inappropriate, just to say that it is not the only measure as “Period” would indicate.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by ejsant
Re: rhythm issues
I have been working on my rhythm, being sometimes rhythm-impaired myself.
I've come to the conclusion that there's always a lot of different things to concentrate on when playing/learning. He might not even be able to hear when his own rhythm goes out. Hearing when someone else's rhythm goes it out is easier.
So firstly, for the most rhythm-impaired: Can they tell when someone elses rhythm goes out? If not then forget about playing for the time being and all the distractions that come with it. Simply practice being able to identify whether someone else playing music is in rhythm or out. Play some 'in rhythm' tunes. Then play out of rhythm. If they need a point of reference, can they tap/clap along.
The second question is, when their own rhythm is going out while they themselves are playing, can they hear that it is?
I find this particularly has happened to me, and the *cure* has always been to record myself playing and then during listening back, to listen *only* for the rhythm. Usually its very obvious to me then, but if it wasn't I would suggest beating in time with my foot while listening to the recording.
I found playing along to a metronome only helps if you don't ignore when your own rhythm deviates from the metronomes rhythm. Sometimes the rhythm-impaired person hears what they want to hear (unintentionally), and even a beating metronome doesn't alert them to the fact that they went out of time. Recording themselves while they play along to a metronome or CD might help. When they listen to the recording back, they can take a step back from their playing and *really* listen to see if they are keeping exact time to the metronome recording.
Thirdly: they might be able to hear rhythm OK, but for other reasons their rhythm goes off. The poor rhythm is the effect but not the cause. For example it might be a technical difficulty with the instrument that makes the person play certain notes out of time, for example too short. I play the fiddle and often it is just before/after a difficult bit eg a string crossing, a bow change, a roll etc, that the rhythm goes wrong. In which case, this is not a rhythm issue at all, but a need to practice this aspect of playing my instrument. But the first battle with this is to identify *exactly* where the rhythm goes wrong.
For example, is there a sudden rush between notes 10 & 11? ie am I not giving note 10 its full rhymic value, thereby throwing out the rhythm.
This then might not be a problem about rhythm at all, just the technical ability to play the two notes at the right speed: even a muscular spasm.
I have been practicing one cure for this, and this is to 'exentuate the opposite'. If I have a tendency to play a quaver too short before a crotchet, then I play the phrase playing the dodgy quaver with double its rhythmic value, playing all the other notes with their correct rhythmic values (ie making that quaver super-long). Yeah I know it makes the tune sound all wrong, but it is just a temporary 'exercise' I do this a number of times. Then go back to trying to playing the phrase with proper rhythmic values, and it sometimes just cures it.
I just want to really encourage you, Red Crow to help them solve their problem. If a teacher doesn't solve their problem, who will? Most people are too polite to tell someone that their rhythm is out. I know somoene who has very bad rhythm, although they've been playing for years in sessions. They would actually not be that bad a player if they could only sort out their rhythm, but they can't really hear that they have a problem. They go to workshops, but here commonly the emphasis is on how to phrase the music eg how to make a jig sound like a jig, or giving ideas about putting the emphasis on the 2nd beat of the tune etc. 'Rashers & Sausages' and suchlike won't help the most rhythm-impaired people. For them there is more urgent issue of how to even vaguely stay between the (imaginary) bar-lines and be bearable to play along with.
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by dontshoutout
Re: rhythm issues
Nice one 'dontshoutout'... There is also the pairing of the suggestion to 'record' with that of using a 'metronome'. The grace is that a good metronome will have a volume button, as well as one for tempo. That potentially irritating tick-tock could help a person hear where things are out of synch. My own metronome is like a drum machine, several tones and rhythmic possibilities. I have used it in that past to address such perception problems, and we always get a good laugh out of it. I've also used it to help get folks into a groove for playing for dance, to build a ceili band... As long as it isn't abused or over used, it is a good tool. As said previously, the more angles you approach a problem like this from, the more likely you are to hit on what works for any 'individual'...
Let us know what you discover 'Red Crow', how things work out...
The other problem 'dontshoutout' are the folks who think they are beyond any problems, even when several people tell them they've got one. It is worse when it is the sort who turn it back on you ~ "I haven't got a problem, it's the rest of you..."
But, this is a case where honesty abounds and is appreciated. Best of luck Red Crow... If you ever see this...
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by ceolachan