G'day all,
I was thinking about this the other day...
I bought my first LP "Beatles For Sale" when I was about 12 years of age and I'm now my mid 50's (jaysus!)...I've been a keen record buyer in the years since that first purchase and you know what,I just realised that I've never bought an album by a Female artist !!!...that is,until a few years ago when I discovered Irish Music.....
I now have quite a few Cd's by the girls..Sharon Shannon,Mary Bergin,Cherish the Ladies to name few...And also CD's that feature women..Altan,Dervish,Solas,Trouble in the Kitchen,Fine Friday etc etc......
I suppose the point I'm trying to make,If indeed I'm trying to make one, is that in this music gender doesnt matter...........the sheilas are as good as the blokes...
In rock music its hard to imgine a girl Guitar Shredder flogging the guitar with agro and passion like Angus from AC/DC....or the rawness of the Sex Pistols...or a fingers dancing on the neck solo from Joe Satriani.....or the blistering blues of Stevie Ray Vaughn...
I'm sure there'd be girls doing this sort of thing....we dont hear much of them though...
So fancy that,all those years buying records and not a girl in the collection..........
I'm so glad to have discovered Irish Trad and Irish Music...it changed my life........and to give it one more tick of aproval,my Cd collection now includes the girls.......Girl Power.....hip hip hooray
See yers..........Zoukboy........
Not to split hairs, but one could argue that hard rock is fairly testosterone-driven, whereas ITM is not. And yet in Irish, the men far outnumber the women for reasons I can't explain. Country music seems to be the only area where the split is far more equal. Any theories?
Maybe its because some people (no names mentioned) say things at their gigs like "women shouldnt play traditional music, they should be in the kitchen making meals for their men"
Teehee - cracks me up. How silly.
(Slightly off topic, but Zoukboy, you really need to get a recording of Janis Joplin. If you're mid-fifties, you must have heard her in the late 60's/early 70's. Sorry - don't mean to hijack your thread, but your comment that you didn't buy an album by a female artist makes me think that you don't have a recording of Janis Joplin and I think you really need one - everyone does! Okay, back to the regular conversation)
Regarding the prevalence of males playing ITM, I have noticed this at sessions I have been to, and although I tend to resist these sorts of generalizations, in fact I have wondered if maybe there is something "macho" about conquering the large repertoire and all the twisty intricacies of ITM. It's something that I find I can geek out on the same way that I geek out on computer programming, which also seems to be male-dominated. Could there be something to this?
while it is certainly true that "the sheilas are as good as the blokes" in terms of playing ability, the two have not been on equal footing for playing itm ever, though things are getting much, much better. women were not expected to play out or to play seriously, though the guys all sentimentalized their (no doubt very talented) mothers, aunties and grandmas' concertina or melodeon playing in the kitchen. there was sometimes vicious and hateful ugliness or derision towards women who did want to play out. even now, traces of this pop up once in a while. at best, there have been fantastic female musicians who were just overlooked and shoved into the background while males of equal talent and abiity were lionized. lucy farr was very eloquent in a graceful way about this in either "blooming meadows" or one of the articles around about her. it is no coincidence that nearly all bios of the few women getting out there in the music at least prior to the last 10 years, prominently feature supportive males, spouses or dads, in the story---this includes elizabeth crotty, lucy farr, mary mac, sharon shannon, mairead, josephine marsh, siobhan peoples, and all of the "cherish" gals, who have performed and recorded with their dads. may there be more irish males like lucy farr's british working-class husband in london, who was proud as anything of her and egged her on to get out and play!
I play the flute, and guitar, I also write a little and sing a bit. My wife, on the other hand, plays piano, drums, sings beautifully, writes constantly, and is constantly looking for some creative outlet. She once led a 'power trio' made up of my self on guitar, a friend on bass, and her on drums and lead vocals. My hat's off to women with talent and the guts to use it! (BTW, when I was in elementary school, when kids gave me a hard time about playing the flute, I simply stated that I got to sit by all of the pretty girls ).
G'day John Culhane,
Yes I sure know of Janis Joplin....I think of her every time I have a birthday as,sadly,she died on that day ...
Never really liked her much though and dont have an album...she had a great voice when she wasnt shrieking....a bit too raucous for me....then again,she was a singer,not a musician...(jeez I'll be in trouble for that ! )....
I suppose in my post I'm talking about people playing an Instrument as opposed to singers ..
Take yer point about Janis though...
Zoukboy.....
Janis Joplin, early Indigo Girls, Shawn Colvin, Cowboy Junkies, Liz Phair, even Belly & Cranberries. Lots of non-trad reasons to have females in your collection.
When I first began to play in my current ceilidh band there were two women and four men. Now, eleven years later, we have two men and four women. No gender transforming surgery was required, just folks leaving and being replaced by the best players we could find. Better looking too.
As has been noted above, Irish trad music has only recently been seen to be "liberated", so it's only a recent "other good thing about this music." Someone mentioned country music being quite equally split between both sexes, but so is soul music, particularly the old Tamla Motown artistes. I think the reality is simply that heavy metal and rock are genres which are male-dominated, so as I see it you have only looked at this from just one viewpoint. Sorry.
Maybe so K.M.Lad...Soul/Tamla Motown artistes being equally split.....but it's still the blokes that are playing the instruments....
please see my reply to John Culhane a few paragraphs back...thanks for your thoughts.
Zoukboy....
What about Emmy Lou Harris, Joni Mitchell, Joan Armatrading they sang, wrote and played the instruments. Not what you might call rock but undeniably very talented musicians.
sadly, s-k is now the recently-disbanded sleater-kinney, one of the best punk bands ever.....they are brilliant....other female touchstones include patti smith, lucinda williams, rosanne cash, exene cervenka of "X" and the Knitters, carla bozulich of the former geraldine fibbers, courtney love of hole, and so many more....
When I made the comment about Janis Joplin, I pretty much knew that zoukboy was talking about instrumentalists, but I wanted to get the Janis Joplin plug in because I had just been listening to one of her recordings and I am one of her biggest fans - it was just the moment. Its interesting to me that zoukboy has the birthday connection to her. But anyway, I do think this thread is about female instrumentalists, and I apologize for derailing it if I did.
So, to make amends, zoukboy, check out Cathie Whitesides. She is a brilliant fiddle player and plays Irish, Cape Breton, American, and Greek/Middle Eastern music beautifully. One of my favorites - like Janis Joplin.
G'day again John Culhane...you're forgiven...not that you were ever in trouble anyway !! Thanks for the info on Cathie Whitesides.I've not heard of her, and I'll try and hear some of her music.I'm always keen on hearing new stuff, especially music that travels along the same road as what The Session is all about.........
And to Steve Shaw....well mate, that IS uncanny..I remember the moment of my purchase of that Beatles album so well....I'd saved for ages to get the money for it,walked excitedly to the record shop,looked way up above the counter to the assistant and handed over my money....Two Pounds Twelve and Sixpence !! Decimal Currency had not yet arrived in OZ....and you know what Steve,I've still got that album..how,I'll never know....still got yours??
Thanks to everyone for joining in on this discussion,I've really enjoyed it..Zoukboy....
Well, zoukboy, I can pinpoint it pretty exactly. I bought it some time between about mid-December and Christmas Eve 1964. I'd saved up for weeks as well. I remember it because my uncle dropped dead at 8pm on Christmas Eve and I remember that I had bought the LP only a few days before. A couple of the tracks did that uncanny thing of associating themselves with the incident for years to follow (I got over that eventually!). I was obsessed with that LP for months because it was the only one I had till Rubber Soul came out (have I got that right??) I don't know what your exchange rate was then, but I can tell you that I paid £1 12s 0d for it, as that's what all LPs seemed to cost then (a single was 6s 8d). I had to weigh the tonearm of our record player down with three pennies sellotaped on to stop the needle jumping. I gave all my Beatles LPs to my mum for safe keeping when I went off to university in 1969 but I think one of my aunts nicked them all and she's passed on now. *Sigh.*
oh, i ordered a cathie whitesides cd a couple years ago because it was the only track list i could find on the web containing a pair of kevin keegan waltzes i wanted to learn....she was lovely to deal with and her fiddling is wonderful....btw, i hear on the grapevine that one of her co-conspirators, box player jeremy kammerer, has a bunch of cooley/keegan/oldstyle itm tunes on box available for purchase....anybody know if this is so? i would love to arrange to get them....his playing is also wonderful....
Yes he does, Cee, I have them right here beside me. Jeremy has taken care to preserve Keegan's settings as best he can. If you send me an email I'll send you his address.
Another good thing about this music...
Another good thing about this music...
G'day all,
I was thinking about this the other day...
I bought my first LP "Beatles For Sale" when I was about 12 years of age and I'm now my mid 50's (jaysus!)...I've been a keen record buyer in the years since that first purchase and you know what,I just realised that I've never bought an album by a Female artist !!!...that is,until a few years ago when I discovered Irish Music.....
I now have quite a few Cd's by the girls..Sharon Shannon,Mary Bergin,Cherish the Ladies to name few...And also CD's that feature women..Altan,Dervish,Solas,Trouble in the Kitchen,Fine Friday etc etc......
I suppose the point I'm trying to make,If indeed I'm trying to make one, is that in this music gender doesnt matter...........the sheilas are as good as the blokes...
In rock music its hard to imgine a girl Guitar Shredder flogging the guitar with agro and passion like Angus from AC/DC....or the rawness of the Sex Pistols...or a fingers dancing on the neck solo from Joe Satriani.....or the blistering blues of Stevie Ray Vaughn...
I'm sure there'd be girls doing this sort of thing....we dont hear much of them though...
So fancy that,all those years buying records and not a girl in the collection..........
I'm so glad to have discovered Irish Trad and Irish Music...it changed my life........and to give it one more tick of aproval,my Cd collection now includes the girls.......Girl Power.....hip hip hooray
See yers..........Zoukboy........
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Not to split hairs, but one could argue that hard rock is fairly testosterone-driven, whereas ITM is not. And yet in Irish, the men far outnumber the women for reasons I can't explain. Country music seems to be the only area where the split is far more equal. Any theories?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Ailin
Re: Another good thing about this music...
"Testosterone Driven"...yes,thats a good point..
Agree with that.....Zoukboy......
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Maybe its because some people (no names mentioned) say things at their gigs like "women shouldnt play traditional music, they should be in the kitchen making meals for their men"
Teehee - cracks me up. How silly.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by bb
Re: Another good thing about this music...
I agree that's a stupid statement bb, because i've tasted your cooking
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by SirNose
Re: Another good thing about this music...
We all know the historic reasons. When I asked the same question I got threatening e-mails from Jeremy.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Another good thing about this music...
(Slightly off topic, but Zoukboy, you really need to get a recording of Janis Joplin. If you're mid-fifties, you must have heard her in the late 60's/early 70's. Sorry - don't mean to hijack your thread, but your comment that you didn't buy an album by a female artist makes me think that you don't have a recording of Janis Joplin and I think you really need one - everyone does! Okay, back to the regular conversation)
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by John Culhane
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Regarding the prevalence of males playing ITM, I have noticed this at sessions I have been to, and although I tend to resist these sorts of generalizations, in fact I have wondered if maybe there is something "macho" about conquering the large repertoire and all the twisty intricacies of ITM. It's something that I find I can geek out on the same way that I geek out on computer programming, which also seems to be male-dominated. Could there be something to this?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Another good thing about this music...
while it is certainly true that "the sheilas are as good as the blokes" in terms of playing ability, the two have not been on equal footing for playing itm ever, though things are getting much, much better. women were not expected to play out or to play seriously, though the guys all sentimentalized their (no doubt very talented) mothers, aunties and grandmas' concertina or melodeon playing in the kitchen. there was sometimes vicious and hateful ugliness or derision towards women who did want to play out. even now, traces of this pop up once in a while. at best, there have been fantastic female musicians who were just overlooked and shoved into the background while males of equal talent and abiity were lionized. lucy farr was very eloquent in a graceful way about this in either "blooming meadows" or one of the articles around about her. it is no coincidence that nearly all bios of the few women getting out there in the music at least prior to the last 10 years, prominently feature supportive males, spouses or dads, in the story---this includes elizabeth crotty, lucy farr, mary mac, sharon shannon, mairead, josephine marsh, siobhan peoples, and all of the "cherish" gals, who have performed and recorded with their dads. may there be more irish males like lucy farr's british working-class husband in london, who was proud as anything of her and egged her on to get out and play!
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Another good thing about this music...
I play the flute, and guitar, I also write a little and sing a bit. My wife, on the other hand, plays piano, drums, sings beautifully, writes constantly, and is constantly looking for some creative outlet. She once led a 'power trio' made up of my self on guitar, a friend on bass, and her on drums and lead vocals. My hat's off to women with talent and the guts to use it! (BTW, when I was in elementary school, when kids gave me a hard time about playing the flute, I simply stated that I got to sit by all of the pretty girls
).
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by jasonlburnfield
Re: Another good thing about this music...
G'day John Culhane,
Yes I sure know of Janis Joplin....I think of her every time I have a birthday as,sadly,she died on that day ...
Never really liked her much though and dont have an album...she had a great voice when she wasnt shrieking....a bit too raucous for me....then again,she was a singer,not a musician...(jeez I'll be in trouble for that ! )....
I suppose in my post I'm talking about people playing an Instrument as opposed to singers ..
Take yer point about Janis though...
Zoukboy.....
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Dating myself, but...
Janis Joplin, early Indigo Girls, Shawn Colvin, Cowboy Junkies, Liz Phair, even Belly & Cranberries. Lots of non-trad reasons to have females in your collection.
(Hijack! Hijack! John Culhane started it!
)
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by browndog
Re: Another good thing about this music...
If you want a good, intelligent, female band that truly rocks out with quality, look no further than Sleater-Kinney.
The sessions around here seem to be right around 50-50. Same with gigging bands.
I want to know why the world contains exactly three male harp players.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Could you name them?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Another good thing about this music...
"they should be in the kitchen making meals for their men"
They should be in the kitchen playing tunes while the pizza is defrosting in the microwave. What are kitchens for?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by ragaman
Re: Another good thing about this music...
When I first began to play in my current ceilidh band there were two women and four men. Now, eleven years later, we have two men and four women. No gender transforming surgery was required, just folks leaving and being replaced by the best players we could find. Better looking too.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by ocarolan
Re: Another good thing about this music...
As has been noted above, Irish trad music has only recently been seen to be "liberated", so it's only a recent "other good thing about this music." Someone mentioned country music being quite equally split between both sexes, but so is soul music, particularly the old Tamla Motown artistes. I think the reality is simply that heavy metal and rock are genres which are male-dominated, so as I see it you have only looked at this from just one viewpoint. Sorry.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Maybe so K.M.Lad...Soul/Tamla Motown artistes being equally split.....but it's still the blokes that are playing the instruments....
please see my reply to John Culhane a few paragraphs back...thanks for your thoughts.
Zoukboy....
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Another good thing about this music...
What about Emmy Lou Harris, Joni Mitchell, Joan Armatrading they sang, wrote and played the instruments. Not what you might call rock but undeniably very talented musicians.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by flossie
Re: Another good thing about this music...
sadly, s-k is now the recently-disbanded sleater-kinney, one of the best punk bands ever.....they are brilliant....other female touchstones include patti smith, lucinda williams, rosanne cash, exene cervenka of "X" and the Knitters, carla bozulich of the former geraldine fibbers, courtney love of hole, and so many more....
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Another good thing about this music...
When I made the comment about Janis Joplin, I pretty much knew that zoukboy was talking about instrumentalists, but I wanted to get the Janis Joplin plug in because I had just been listening to one of her recordings and I am one of her biggest fans - it was just the moment. Its interesting to me that zoukboy has the birthday connection to her. But anyway, I do think this thread is about female instrumentalists, and I apologize for derailing it if I did.
So, to make amends, zoukboy, check out Cathie Whitesides. She is a brilliant fiddle player and plays Irish, Cape Breton, American, and Greek/Middle Eastern music beautifully. One of my favorites - like Janis Joplin.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by John Culhane
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Zoukboy a écrit:
"I bought my first LP "Beatles For Sale" when I was about 12 years of age and I'm now my mid 50's (jaysus!)..."
Well how shudderingly uncanny is that. "Beatles For Sale" was the very first LP I ever bought too, and I also am in my mid-50s...
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Another good thing about this music...
You know it's strictly against the site regulations to have a dual identity, Steve?
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Don't think there is a rule agains doppelgangers though spoon! ;-
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Another good thing about this music...
"Don't think there is a rule agains doppelgangers though spoon! ;-"
http://www.thesession.org/members/index/faqs
3rd from the bottom.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Sorry, Curvy. I'm slow tonight.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Doppelgangers are allowed, so long as they use a different username.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Another good thing about this music...
G'day again John Culhane...you're forgiven...not that you were ever in trouble anyway !! Thanks for the info on Cathie Whitesides.I've not heard of her, and I'll try and hear some of her music.I'm always keen on hearing new stuff, especially music that travels along the same road as what The Session is all about.........
And to Steve Shaw....well mate, that IS uncanny..I remember the moment of my purchase of that Beatles album so well....I'd saved for ages to get the money for it,walked excitedly to the record shop,looked way up above the counter to the assistant and handed over my money....Two Pounds Twelve and Sixpence !! Decimal Currency had not yet arrived in OZ....and you know what Steve,I've still got that album..how,I'll never know....still got yours??
Thanks to everyone for joining in on this discussion,I've really enjoyed it..Zoukboy....
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Well, zoukboy, I can pinpoint it pretty exactly. I bought it some time between about mid-December and Christmas Eve 1964. I'd saved up for weeks as well. I remember it because my uncle dropped dead at 8pm on Christmas Eve and I remember that I had bought the LP only a few days before. A couple of the tracks did that uncanny thing of associating themselves with the incident for years to follow (I got over that eventually!). I was obsessed with that LP for months because it was the only one I had till Rubber Soul came out (have I got that right??) I don't know what your exchange rate was then, but I can tell you that I paid £1 12s 0d for it, as that's what all LPs seemed to cost then (a single was 6s 8d). I had to weigh the tonearm of our record player down with three pennies sellotaped on to stop the needle jumping. I gave all my Beatles LPs to my mum for safe keeping when I went off to university in 1969 but I think one of my aunts nicked them all and she's passed on now. *Sigh.*
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Another good thing about this music...
oh, i ordered a cathie whitesides cd a couple years ago because it was the only track list i could find on the web containing a pair of kevin keegan waltzes i wanted to learn....she was lovely to deal with and her fiddling is wonderful....btw, i hear on the grapevine that one of her co-conspirators, box player jeremy kammerer, has a bunch of cooley/keegan/oldstyle itm tunes on box available for purchase....anybody know if this is so? i would love to arrange to get them....his playing is also wonderful....
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Another good thing about this music...
Yes he does, Cee, I have them right here beside me. Jeremy has taken care to preserve Keegan's settings as best he can. If you send me an email I'll send you his address.
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Another good thing about this music...
oh my, this is great....i sent it, hopefully to the right place, and many thank-yous, pb.
# Posted on February 28th 2007 by ceemonster