I'm getting more and more interested in the instruments that make up ITM. I know that the bodhran is one of the oldest (if not THE oldest) instrument in ITM. What kind of skill is needed to play a bodhran? How did you all learn to play (ie. teacher or self taught)? What size do you prefer? Anything else you want to to mention about the bodhran, throw it in! I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but I wanted to learn more about this wonderful instrument from the bodhran player's point of view!
I don't know that the bodhran is all that old. I think harp is probably the oldest of Celtic instruments. The primary skill needed is a good sense of rhythm. I play flute along with bodhran, and I can't tell you how many times I've asked a bodhran player to start either a jig or reel rhythm, and they couldn't do it without having me start a tune. Surist sign the player in question doesn't have what it takes. The instrument is played with much the same approach one would take to playing rhythm guitar. After you learn the basics, you can really take off on your own, if you have a feel for it.
Many bodhran players make a big issue about how the bodhran is made, but really, it is just a goatskin on a round frame. There are obviously better and worse bodhrans, but I don't advise making a quest to find the perfect drum. It's just not that big a deal if you can play it.
It can be a very satisfying instrument to play, but I strongly advise you to learn a melody instrument, and not just play bodhran. The real joy in playing ITM is in the tunes themselves.
I hear the skuttling of those little leather eating beatles and the clicks of the deathwatch beetles boring holes in wood, and there is the acrid scent of of fire & brimstone, no, it's hot tar...
Being new to the forum and a bodhranist I'll try to provide some answers without being controversial......
<<<<What kind of skill is needed to play a bodhran?>>>>
Rhythm, timing and a sense of ITM music.
<<<<How did you all learn to play (ie. teacher or self taught)?>>>>
A little teaching and a lot of self-practice/ teaching.
<<<<What size do you prefer?>>>>
Having learned and played on an 18x3.5 and now playing a 16x7, I much prefer the deeper sound and more tonal range of the smaller diameter/deeper drum. I'll add a 14 incher sometime soon, for fun and to share with my 5 yr old daughter.
I just want to add that the bodhran is an instrument that some people think they can pick up fairly quickly and make what they think is a wonderful beat but in most cases they are not. If played well ( as with any other instrument) it adds nicely to a session though and is fun to play...
For a beginner. If you have the ability ( some folks never get it) I'd say it'll take 2 hrs per night for 1 yr before you play with strangers. And when you do ensure you know the tune. Oh and get a tune able drum.
To Ailin,
I often play with an accordion playing friend. He always wants to sit closely on my left to hear/feel the beat, especially if it's noisy around us. He said it helps him to stay in rhythm when he can't hear his own feet tapping
It is an excellent instrument for sure. Like a lot of people around here I'd hazard a guess, the production of a bodhran at a session routinely means ruination to come. It seems to be because you can show up with one having learned no more than the rudiments of getting a sound out of it (it took me three months just to get that far! ) and have a bash. I agree with Ailin about learning a melody instrument as well, for two reasons. First, if you do that you will not be playing your bodhran all night non-stop and driving everyone else up the wall. Second, you will come to appreciate that playing the bodhran effectively with a tune involves knowing that tune. It is not sufficient merely to recognise that it is a reel, or whatever.
I have a bodhran and I can play it better than most people who have ever shown up with one at our sessions. I hasten to add that that means very little. I always leave it at home because there will always be some eejit who wants to borrow it and have a bash. I have been the least popular bloke in the pub on several occasions for permitting the borrowing.
For sure, if you want to play a bodhran in a band or a session, you'd better become very proficient first, for it is one instrument which, though wondrous in the right hands, is never ever needed in Irish music.
Ken - If the bodhran player is good, I'd do the same. I wouldn't play the instrument if I didn't love it (both the playing and its contribution to the music). Why did you direct that comment to me?
Well said gang, and I might add to the list of requirements, or things hoped (prayed) for ~
* ~ courtesy (not to think we can't exist without them, and someone who doesn't need to play for every damn thing, even the waltzes... Oh yeah, and who isn't pushy, feeling the need to drive us as if we were cattle heading for the nearest cliff as fast as we can...)
* ~ musicality (not just another 'banger')
P.S. ~ no, it ain't that old, unless of course we think of it in a wider and more inclusive way, in the context of the family of tambourines...
I should like to apologise for saying "for sure" twice in one post. It's an expression I hardly ever use so I really don't know what came over me. How can that happen?
In my opinion alot bodhran players are trying to get to much from the drum ,the playing then becomes too busy and the steady beat is lost ,keep it simple and percise for better results. There are many different styles of playing so its important to find a style you like b4 you buy a drum.(there's alot of crap drums out there) I like Colm Murphy s style because its dynamic and alot of musicans appreciate it. Johnny mcdonagh has a traditional style with great tone variations. Next John joe kelly plays a more modern style and is worth listening to.
Tips.
1. Dont try to learn how to play at sessions .Make sure you have reached a standard b4 you unvail it .you dont want to get a bad name from the start.
2.Brendan White makes nice drums and they are not too loud.
3.Awareness is the key .know when to play and more importantly when not to play.
4.Lessons might be a good idea because alot of bad habits can be hard to get rid of from self teaching.
5.All tune are different so one reel rhythm might not suit another reel.
6.There is alot of hard work involved in reaching a good standard of play ,that is why there are so few great players.Prepare for hard work.
These are just my opinions I could be wrong.
It is the oldest, as in any civilisation. It was much easier for someone to make and therefore invent a skin drum than a harp. Think about it, all of you who believe that O'Riada nonsense.
Get someone to show you how to hold it, and teach yourself. Bodhran lessons are a recipe for disaster.
People have said things like "Oh no here we go", but oddly enough nobody seems to have yet stated the plain, to some disappointing, fact. Of course, percussion is everywhere, and if you want to define bodhran as being any circular skin drum, then the bodhran has a long history. If you look hard enough you will probably find the occasional picture of a circular drum in all sorts of places. There is, however, no evidence whatsoever that the bodhran *as we know it* was at all widespread or popular in Irish rural music prior to the 1950s. There is also not the slightest evidence of any sort to suggest that the style of bodhran playing *as we know it* (that tabla-like pressing of the skin to change the pitch and give that tippety-plop-a-tappa-tarrrpa effect) was practised at all, let alone popular, prior to the 1950s or even 1960s.
The bodhran, of course, did not emerge out of the blue entirely, but we know without doubt that its popularity is only a matter of the last few decades. Anything else is romantic fantasy, disappointing as that may be.
So called "foot-tapping music" ie that with a logical and captivating rhythm has always attracted percussive accompaniment. Most societies that winnowed grain for bread had a hoop with a skin on it for this winnowing purpose and it was an obvious extension to play it. My grandfather used to play the tobacco tin, matchbox, spoons and a pocketfull of pennies, I'm sure be would have played the bodhran had there been a winnowing thing in the room.
I play it because women go for it.
>but really, it is just a goatskin on a round frame
Inasmuch as a flute is a black pole with holes in it or a set of pipes are the same with a bit of tied up grass at one end and a few brass buttons here and there.
As I understand it, the bodhran has been around for a while but was not used to accompany melody instruments until fairly recently. There seems to have been some controversy associated with it's introduction at music sessions, but it's certainly here to stay now. A well played bodhran can really add to the overall sound of a session, a badly played one can make everybody want to pack up and go home.
for the most informed group of people who can answer your questions in detail.
There was an illuminating talk 2 weeks ago by Rolf Wagels at the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester. Rolf gave a presentation citing recorded examples of bodhran playing from 1927 to present day.
Ignore any sniping opinions that occassionally appear on this 'The Session' forum.
The bodhran is a musical instrument and has plenty of devotees who know only too well the value of applying yourself to learning and understanding it's role in ITM and other genres. It will take time, just as any instrument. How much time depends on your natural aptitude and the effort you put in to your practice.
Oh, and if you can, find yourself a teacher to put you on the right track.
Where do I start?
All it is is ego.
Nothing more than inbility.
Knowing nothing.
Expecting everthing.
Rejecting music.
Satisfaction with the substandard
Don't give up the day job Llig. You are starting to rival McGonagle.
To answer Saint. I have sat at numerous sessions with bodhran players who attended classes, and were taught rhythms, say a jig rhythm and then a reel one, without music. On many occasions they have been playing but if the music varies, they plough on with that steady rhythm, which means it is out of sync, and starts putting everyone else off. Above all else, playing a bodhran means listening to the music, so is only for true purists, who really appreciate the music. If you want to show off, get a fiddle.
If you get someone to show you how to hold the playing hand, and get a up and down movement, practice until you get a basic beat. After that it is a matter of playing along with LPs, CDs, tapes, Youtube or whatever, and it will improve. Old ceilidh band LPS were good, perfect timing, although ypou would soon realise a session is usually faster. But if you have done the groundwork before going to the session, well you should be ok.
There is nothing wrong with advice from a player, but these "classes" with 40 people playing to no music in a room, sends shudders down my spine.
As for the do in Manchester at the College of Music, trhere are all sorts of cons nowadays. Anyone want to buy London Bridge?
As others have said rhythm is one of the most important things, along with knowing the music you are playing. Doubling on a melody instrument can really help your bodhran playing. Try starting on an instrument like penny whistle and learn how to play tunes. And most of all: listen. Buy a lot of recordings of great ITM players, get to as many concerts as you can. These recordings don't have to have bodhran on them because the music is rhythmically vital enough to note need it.
I learned to play first by having someone who played the drum show me how to hold the tipper and some of the basics. And then I just experimented, watched those who really knew how to play it and figured things out on it. Now I play at session and I'm comfortable with pulling the drum out anywhere.
I play on a 16in drum, a lovely tunable instrument made by Eckermann. I first tried out an 18in another person at session had, but I felt it was too big for me. If you can ever get to a place that has even cheap drums, you could pick them up and see which one feels like a good size for you.
It's a lovely instrument -- best of luck in your new endeavour!
I'm sure you didn't mean to insult anyone with your suggestion that the 'do' ,as you put it, at the College of Music in Manchester was a 'con'. Had you attended said event you would have found yourself in the company of pleasant, knowlegeable players keen to promote all aspects of musical bodhran playing.
May I ask you to retract your remark lest it be misinterpreted as a slight on the hard work of those invoved?
Thanks guys for the input. Just so you guys know, I do play some melody instruments. I already play the fiddle, and learning how to play the whistle. Now this may not be something I'll try right away, but it's definetly something I'd like to try eventually. Unfortunely around here, it would be difficult to find a teacher, so I would have to resort to learning off the net and/or books. I also have about 2 dozen cds, so that should give me something to play along with.
Never, ever, look at a book on how to play the bodhran. You could end up with a dislocated arm.
Gran Cassa, many people ask me for bodhran lessons. I tell them I could charge £10 a lesson, and fart about for a year. I then tell them there is only one lesson, which I have repeated here on occasion.
A discussion on the history of bodhran could be interesting, and although I play the instrument, I would not associate it with the College of Music on Oxford Road. Maybe in the Clarence years ago, further up the Road.
And many cons require hard work. Do not belittle con artists.
“I've asked a bodhran player to start either a jig or reel rhythm, and they couldn't do it without having me start a tune. Surist sign the player in question doesn't have what it takes.”
Hey Ailin,
Although I could very readily start a reel, jig, hornpipe, or on a good day a polka with out a melody player I would be very reluctant to do so as I believe what it takes is to listen to the execution of the tune and follow the melody not lead it.
Hey Celtic Lass,
I must say the tamest ever, congratulations this is quite an accomplishment around here even if only for this long, wouldn’t you say Irishfiddler32 ? Great advice has been given and pay close mind to Bliss’ last comment, sans the bit about the College of Music in Manchester anyway.
Listen, listen, and then listen some more. There are brilliant nuances in the tunes when played with passion and ability and you can follow them to great places whilst beating that old goat. The two greatest bits of counsel I ever received about the playing of the bodhrán was follow the tune and play what’s in your head. Using static rhythm patterns adds no life what-so-ever to the tune, actually it can take quite a bit away. Some call it flattening the tune out. Also pose your questions over there at the Yahoo group already identified.
At risk of starting a controversy, Ed, I take exception to the notion that there is any advantage to knowing a tune before you can play bodhran. If you know ITM, and know the difference between a jig and a reel (etc.), you can most certainly play an effective backup. Knowing the tune only allows you to punctuate or lay off certain phrases, which is colorful, but hardly necessary. Many bands start a tune with a bodhran rhythm. When I ask a bodhran player to start a rhythm, I do so in hopes of being inspired to a particular tune by whatever he or she plays. It's just a fun thing to do, but I am surprised when a player cannot do it. As a bodhran player myself, I would love to be asked to start a beat and see what someone kicks in with. I used to do this all the time with a group of drummers and me on Boehm flute. Great fun!
Most of the time, I switch to bodhran when I DON'T know the tune. Never had a bit of trouble. I don't come in at the beginning, and I work in gradually, but once I have the feel of where the tune is going, it's full speed ahead. If the tune changes, I drop out until I get my footing, or find that it would be best to sit out. You have to get instictive about this. I love bodhran, but let's not make it more than it is.
My view is that there is a great advantage if the bodhran player knows the tune. Yes, any half decent goatskin player will discern a jig from a reel etc, and keep a steady beat, but if s/he knows the tune they know what's coming, and can fit their playing beats into the particular nuances of that melody, and that's much more than just being"colourful". It's adding to the whole musical...erm... experience (whoa-ho, nearly said performance there!) Anyway it enriches the music, if done well, in my opinion.
If you accompany a tune you don't know the best you can do is to beat out a very unsubtle rhythm. You are not in sympathy with what you are playing along with at all. A really good bodhran player (as common as rocking horse sh*t) will be playing a line that is completely integrated with the tune, because they know the tune. Anything less than this is second-rate.
“I've asked a bodhran player to start either a jig or reel rhythm, and they couldn't do it without having me start a tune. Surist sign the player in question doesn't have what it takes.”
There have been occasions where someone has asked me to play a rhythm for a reel or jig so they could come in after I start. If I don't know what tune they intend to play I can certainly lay down a basic rhythm... and I know the difference between the tune rhythms. As soon as they come in I'm listening to the tune to find out if I know it. If I do then I'll know what to do. If I don't I'll study it's structure the first time through to get an idea of what to do. This is the same approach I take when tunes switch in a session, but in that case often I'll stop and decide whether to come back in based on several factors that might include putting it down and picking up a melody instrument. If I don't know the tune I'll listen to it to determine if the bodhran would add anything or not. If I think it will I'll try to sus out what's going on in the tune listening to it go by once or twice. But If I asked someone else to start either a jig or reel rhythm for me and they couldn't -- that would definitely be cause for alarm.
It saddens me that you felt unable to retract your unkind remarks about the RNCM Day of Percussion and their Bodhran feature.
Thank you for alerting me to craftiness of' 'con-men' but I can assure you that with the advantage of old age, and the experience that brings, I am able to discern between a genuine musician and a 'con-man'.
There were many people there who, like you, are keen to hear the bodhran played well. The talk and lessons on the bodhran was beneficial in promoting the instrument to both 'seasoned campaigners' and the uninitiated.
This friendly dialogue and well informed advice from educated players has informed my musical understanding and as a result of this I never stop learning
To belittle an event that you did not attend is unfair. In pouring scorn on the best efforts of others ' the baby gets thrown out with the bath-water' and you arguments lose their potency, which is a great shame.
To play the any instrument including the bodhran well, you need to know the tunes. Instinct is not enough with any instrument, and the bodhran would be taken a lot more seriously as an ITM instrument if players didn't just 'go with the flow' and busk their way through tunes thinking they sound like Tommy Hayes.
That said, at sessions if you are competent enough you can play the tunes as long as you don't try to get too clever. Keep to a steady beat and don't try the pyrotechnics out until you know the tune inside out.
On all those recordings we all love to listen to, all the musicians knew the tune, had practiced it and didn't just hammer away - and includes the bodhran players.
“At risk of starting a controversy, Ed, I take exception to the notion that there is any advantage to knowing a tune before you can play bodhran.”
Ailin,
I don’t think it a controversy at all, just different opinions of the potential of this brilliant instrument and its place in the music.
The way I see it not following a skilled and passionate melody player as they execute the brilliant nuances of a tune and simply beating out an appropriate rhythm leaves one with only the basic of satisfactions available to them whilst playing this soulful instrument. Sure if one doesn’t know the tune but is a skilled percussionist and plays the bodhrán and again only beats out an appropriate rhythm pattern things may sound acceptable or even fine but as I see it there is a magic, a oneness if you will, that is never attained.
Now in arranged playing of tunes and or sets, I’m going to say it Key Maniac Lad so duck, or performances, a bodhrán intro can be very exciting and I agree one should know how to beat out the different rhythm patterns with-out the aid of the melody but to leave it at that as I said I believe one is short changing themselves and their experience in playing the music and it is in this that the advantage of knowing the tune is found. Jeez that’s some long sentence there isn’t it?
Hey Bliss,
It may be a dangerous day that we agree like this. This may warrant either going out to buy a lottery ticket or holing up in the storm cellar.
Greetings all,
I have to say that I am impressed by the evolution I am witnessing here, thank you to all for a nearly non-scoffing bodhrán discussion.
Why is this board full of pedantic people who find it impossible to read a whole post?
No-one suggested you lift a bodhran and "instinct" takes over. I did say you get a basic rhythm, then practice, practice, practice and PRACTICE, to lps, cds and tapes. Eventually the instinct takes over.
After all that practice to LPS CDS and the rest, you will know the tunes. Like everything else it is a combination of things.
Playing the fiddle, flute, pipes, harp, whistle, or banjo, or ANY INSTRUMENT, it helps if you know the tunes.
I am not in substantive disagreement with what anyone has said here, but I really do think that it is NOT the job of a percussionist to "follow the tune" per se. A steady rhythm with tasteful variation is what's really called for. When you start "following the tune," I would submit that you are drawing too much attention to yourself. The bodhran should not be that prominent, IMO. It should serve as the vehicle the melody rides on. I rate myself an excellent bodhran player, and I do play slightly differently, and probably better, when I know the tune, but for session playing, I maintain that it is a nicety, at best. I've just never found it a challenge to play interesting (and appropriate) stuff with a tune that is new to me. It's just not that tought.
You need to be into it. You sit down with a flue player for the first time, let him start, and if there are only two of you play by hand, not a tipper, and it can be great, as the drum can compliment the tune.
Knowing the tune doesn't mean following it, I do that to songs on the mandolin, play the melody if I know it, play harmony if it is new, the new giving you a chance to be expressive. Playing the bodhran can be the same.
Just read Grans bit about being older, and the experience that brings. You must be in your 70s if you are older than me. When I mentioned the Clarence on Oxford Road, I mean in the 1970s.
Well then ... so that's the average session for you.
Ailin says, " I rate myself an excellent bodhran player, and I do play slightly differently, and probably better, when I know the tune, but for session playing, I maintain that it is a nicety, at best."
Ailin, do me a favour and e-mail me befor you come within a thousand miles of me so that I can put another thousand miles between us.
Considering the subject of the thread (and how threadbare this topic has become - you have to question your own sanity when you post yet again to a bodhran thread, which is indeed what I'm doing now...), some very good points have been made. Naturally, one has to loftily ignore those who misjudge the general intent...
One thing I don't agree with, going from my own experience of trying to learn this most detested of all ITM instruments. Sorry Mr Bliss. Practising by playing along with recordings is not only a waste of time, its actually worse than useless. The interaction between you and the other musicians is the sine qua non of bodhran playing (just as it is with other instruments of course). A good bodhran player is neither leading (and, lamentably, how many of us have had to "follow" an over-loud, insensitive, usually incompetent bodhran player!) nor following, as you do playing along with CDs. Rather, he or she is firmly "in the groove" as an equal with all the others present. A great bunch of session players who love each other's company and understand each other's playing is almost like a well-oiled machine, a single organism (at least, I'm pretty well-oiled by about 11p.m....). Oh, I can play the drum really well with "Bothy Band Live," but I'm complete sh1te when I do it in the pub. What makes me so valuable as a bodhran player is that I recognise this and act on it (by leaving the damn thing at home!). Bejaysus, I've made meself feel bloody virtuous now...
If you want to learn the bodhrán, there's only one thing for it - watch other people play it, then copy them exactly. Seriously. I was given a bodhrán for my 13th birthday, and never really touched it for about a year, when I went to a summer school where there were about 3-4 bodhránists. I watched them play, studid their hand and wrist movements and all that, went home, picked up my drum, and within about a week I could play it. Really, it's not that hard, as long as you can play a proper instrument as well...
Well, good luck if you really think you could play it in a week, but look back at thread history and ask yourself why seasoned sessioneers wouldn't really want you at their pub. Not that hard, eh? One of the greastest teachers of the diatonic harmonica, a "simple" little thing with only 20 reeds, said that learning the 10-hole harmonica is as hard as mastering a grand piano. You have more work to do, Joe.
Must agree with Steve on the last bit, but not earlier. The reason you start with CDS etc is so that you just don't arrive at a session on day one, or after a week like Joe CSS, and make a hydraulics.
It is a combination of things. Get the hand right, basic rhythm, practice with CDS, go to session, re-learn in a live environment and playing with others, more practice, and you conatantly improve, some to the point of greatness.
As for the bit about "proper instruments", are you not aware that the bodhran is recognised by the ROYAL COLLEGE of MUSIC, in Manchester? So no more sneering talk of "real" instruments.
I learnt the fiddle in 5 days, but I am not very good at it.
wow I got such a good chuckle off this thread! thank you for posting
did you know the 5 string "bluegrass" banjo was introduced to "traditional" Irish music as far back as the 1840s?
WAY before the bodhran (110 years if you believe what you read here)
I read recently that the bodhran came originally from Spain after WWII in the late 40s, early 50s, where it was played with a single headed mallet, and that the tapper as we know it was introduced a decade later
All frame drums are from the one family. As ITM came from N.Africa, the Spanish connection is a possibility given the moorish influence there, but the bit about the 1950s is nonsense.
To play the bodhran one must first capture a goat, kill it with bare hands, walk around it 7 times speaking only in gaelic these words "I killed a goat." Next the Animal must be butchered... not with blade, but ancient stone. The skin must be treated with the dripings of freshly hewn oak bark that is first blessed by a druid. Then one must journey to the highest point in Ireland and fast for 3 days and 3 nights before assembling the frame on the full moon. We are not yet to the tipper...
Ive seen people pick up the fiddle and play it well in 24 months...(I dont mean those who had the classical lessons as a kid)--- Ive seen people pick up the bodhran and play t well quickly... its about whats inside of the person. The Bodhran is a musical instrument that can be played well or not so well... Ive seen more guitars wreck a session than bodhrans...
The frame drum is ancient, but as to exactly when it arrived in Ireland I have no idea. The idea of playing it in the fashion that we associate with the bodhran didn't come about until the mid 20th century.
I never said I could play it well in a week. I just said I could play it. I wouldn't have dreamt of going to a session with it then, cos I knew I would have ruined it. But I had definitely "got" it within a week. NOW I would say I can play it well.
As for the harmonica, I completely agree. I've had one since I was a little boy, and still cannot fathom how to get anything out of it except a C and G chord. It's MUCH harder than a piano.
Funny that about the harmonica. I don't know what a C or G chord is, but I can play the harmonica. Come to think of it after 40 years playing it, I don't know what any of the notes are.
Like anything, it doesn't need a proof of antiquity, which so many scamper about and root for, to find appreciation, to be considered officially 'Irish' ~ and to be played with skill and consideration for others... As a 'bodhran' in the modern sense of its use, it may very well be considered at best 20th Century, but that doesn't take away from its magic. Only bad player, 'head bangers', can spoil that for us... They have much to answer for, including a general feeling of unease when someone comes in with anything round and suggestive of a bodhran...
I think it's safe to say that the problems associated with the bodhran have nothing to do with it's legitimacy or contribution to the music when played well, but everything to do with the perception by many of it being an easy access instrument.
On the question of whether it is better to know the tunes before you play along wih the bodhrán, the answer is most definitely yes!
I've heard some incredibly technical players thrash along with tunes they don't know and it is a shambles; they are more often than not at odds with the tune, oblivious to the fact, too wrapped up in their own sound.
If you must play along with a tune you don't know keep it very simple; otherwise you may as well flush your reputation down the toilet.
I've been playing the bodhrán for 26 years and was teaching classes when I was 11 so hopefully I know what I'm on about.
1.Not only is it important to know the tune when playing the bodhran its important to know the people playing the tune because people can play the same tune with different rhythm.
2.The no. of years spent playing does nt matter because if your doing something wrong for 10 years or 20 years its still wrong. So a lesson or two at the start can put you in the right direction and give you a good base structure to build on.
3.I agree with bliss about learning rhythms it can be a disater .great bodhran players can anticipate whats coming next in someones play.
Test yourself try playing along with micho russell ,playing basic rhythms wont work with micho.
Thank you Joe CSS, I will remember, and treasure that.
Conan started off banging bid lids in the streets, so had a head start on everyone else(N.Ireland joke).
And Saint has it right, a great player can play with anyone, any tune, strange or not. When playing with strangers you simply listen to the first part of the tune before joining in, and ALL great bodhran players know when the tune is going to change into a new tune, because they can count up to three.
You're just doing what I do, Steve - pop back every now and then, post 3 posts on 3 different threads and go away for a bit.
Must be our shared Cornish ... ness ... (was going to say 'ancestry' but didn't know whether you were, in fact, Cornish - my mother was of an old Cornish family)
At this time of night, when the missus has hit the sack, I flit twixt computer and domestic chores and patting the cats (and topping up the wine glass unless it's a Tuesday or a Thursday). Sometimes I find that forum events just overtake me, which is no bad thing sometimes! I'd like to claim Cornish*tude but I've only been here for 20 years and my incorrigible northern accent is a dead giveaway.
*Bodhran content: if it rains tomorrow I'm going to practise mine. I've inherited a Howard 16" non-tuneable job and I have a tipper that was hand-turned for me years ago by none other than Tony Dixon of whistle fame. Luvly feller he is too though he once "accidentally" stole an A harp from me for about nine months, until I spotted it one night at the Wellington in Boscastle lurking at the bottom of his pipes case!
I have had a Howard 16" non-tuneable for about 12 years now, and I can honestly say it's a really geat drum. I went to Brian's house to buy a 18" tuneable (great drum, terrible finish), which I then bought.
The tuneable went years ago, but the 16" has stayed and I still love it to bits, even though I rarely play it out these days, preferring my bouzouki instead (rhythm, tunes and chords - sweet!).
Bodhrans
Bodhrans
I'm getting more and more interested in the instruments that make up ITM. I know that the bodhran is one of the oldest (if not THE oldest) instrument in ITM. What kind of skill is needed to play a bodhran? How did you all learn to play (ie. teacher or self taught)? What size do you prefer? Anything else you want to to mention about the bodhran, throw it in! I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but I wanted to learn more about this wonderful instrument from the bodhran player's point of view!
Sara
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Bodhrans
Your first question will probably get a lot of comments...hold on, here they come...
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by irishfiddler32
Re: Bodhrans
Tu Culpa!!! Oh no, here we go again... Grab the handrails and find a piece of leather to bite on to...
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Bodhrans
I don't know that the bodhran is all that old. I think harp is probably the oldest of Celtic instruments. The primary skill needed is a good sense of rhythm. I play flute along with bodhran, and I can't tell you how many times I've asked a bodhran player to start either a jig or reel rhythm, and they couldn't do it without having me start a tune. Surist sign the player in question doesn't have what it takes. The instrument is played with much the same approach one would take to playing rhythm guitar. After you learn the basics, you can really take off on your own, if you have a feel for it.
Many bodhran players make a big issue about how the bodhran is made, but really, it is just a goatskin on a round frame. There are obviously better and worse bodhrans, but I don't advise making a quest to find the perfect drum. It's just not that big a deal if you can play it.
It can be a very satisfying instrument to play, but I strongly advise you to learn a melody instrument, and not just play bodhran. The real joy in playing ITM is in the tunes themselves.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Ailin
Re: Bodhrans
Oldest? Oh child, ye know not what ye say...
I hear the skuttling of those little leather eating beatles and the clicks of the deathwatch beetles boring holes in wood, and there is the acrid scent of of fire & brimstone, no, it's hot tar...
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Bodhrans
Correction to my original post. Okay, I know it's an old instrument, maybe not THE oldest, but farily old.
Sara
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Bodhrans
Being new to the forum and a bodhranist I'll try to provide some answers without being controversial......
<<<<What kind of skill is needed to play a bodhran?>>>>
Rhythm, timing and a sense of ITM music.
<<<<How did you all learn to play (ie. teacher or self taught)?>>>>
A little teaching and a lot of self-practice/ teaching.
<<<<What size do you prefer?>>>>
Having learned and played on an 18x3.5 and now playing a 16x7, I much prefer the deeper sound and more tonal range of the smaller diameter/deeper drum. I'll add a 14 incher sometime soon, for fun and to share with my 5 yr old daughter.
I just want to add that the bodhran is an instrument that some people think they can pick up fairly quickly and make what they think is a wonderful beat but in most cases they are not. If played well ( as with any other instrument) it adds nicely to a session though and is fun to play...
For a beginner. If you have the ability ( some folks never get it) I'd say it'll take 2 hrs per night for 1 yr before you play with strangers. And when you do ensure you know the tune. Oh and get a tune able drum.
Have fun
Ken
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by salmoncove
Re: Bodhrans
To Ailin,
I often play with an accordion playing friend. He always wants to sit closely on my left to hear/feel the beat, especially if it's noisy around us. He said it helps him to stay in rhythm when he can't hear his own feet tapping
Ken
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by salmoncove
Re: Bodhrans
It is an excellent instrument for sure. Like a lot of people around here I'd hazard a guess, the production of a bodhran at a session routinely means ruination to come. It seems to be because you can show up with one having learned no more than the rudiments of getting a sound out of it (it took me three months just to get that far!
) and have a bash. I agree with Ailin about learning a melody instrument as well, for two reasons. First, if you do that you will not be playing your bodhran all night non-stop and driving everyone else up the wall. Second, you will come to appreciate that playing the bodhran effectively with a tune involves knowing that tune. It is not sufficient merely to recognise that it is a reel, or whatever.
I have a bodhran and I can play it better than most people who have ever shown up with one at our sessions. I hasten to add that that means very little. I always leave it at home because there will always be some eejit who wants to borrow it and have a bash. I have been the least popular bloke in the pub on several occasions for permitting the borrowing.
For sure, if you want to play a bodhran in a band or a session, you'd better become very proficient first, for it is one instrument which, though wondrous in the right hands, is never ever needed in Irish music.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
Ken - If the bodhran player is good, I'd do the same. I wouldn't play the instrument if I didn't love it (both the playing and its contribution to the music). Why did you direct that comment to me?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Ailin
Re: Bodhrans
Well said gang, and I might add to the list of requirements, or things hoped (prayed) for ~
* ~ courtesy (not to think we can't exist without them, and someone who doesn't need to play for every damn thing, even the waltzes... Oh yeah, and who isn't pushy, feeling the need to drive us as if we were cattle heading for the nearest cliff as fast as we can...)
* ~ musicality (not just another 'banger')
P.S. ~ no, it ain't that old, unless of course we think of it in a wider and more inclusive way, in the context of the family of tambourines...
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Bodhrans
I should like to apologise for saying "for sure" twice in one post. It's an expression I hardly ever use so I really don't know what came over me. How can that happen?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
In my opinion alot bodhran players are trying to get to much from the drum ,the playing then becomes too busy and the steady beat is lost ,keep it simple and percise for better results. There are many different styles of playing so its important to find a style you like b4 you buy a drum.(there's alot of crap drums out there) I like Colm Murphy s style because its dynamic and alot of musicans appreciate it. Johnny mcdonagh has a traditional style with great tone variations. Next John joe kelly plays a more modern style and is worth listening to.
Tips.
1. Dont try to learn how to play at sessions .Make sure you have reached a standard b4 you unvail it .you dont want to get a bad name from the start.
2.Brendan White makes nice drums and they are not too loud.
3.Awareness is the key .know when to play and more importantly when not to play.
4.Lessons might be a good idea because alot of bad habits can be hard to get rid of from self teaching.
5.All tune are different so one reel rhythm might not suit another reel.
6.There is alot of hard work involved in reaching a good standard of play ,that is why there are so few great players.Prepare for hard work.
These are just my opinions I could be wrong.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Bodhrans
It is the oldest, as in any civilisation. It was much easier for someone to make and therefore invent a skin drum than a harp. Think about it, all of you who believe that O'Riada nonsense.
Get someone to show you how to hold it, and teach yourself. Bodhran lessons are a recipe for disaster.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
Surely the oldest instrument in the tradition is the human voice?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Wurzel
Re: Bodhrans
People have said things like "Oh no here we go", but oddly enough nobody seems to have yet stated the plain, to some disappointing, fact. Of course, percussion is everywhere, and if you want to define bodhran as being any circular skin drum, then the bodhran has a long history. If you look hard enough you will probably find the occasional picture of a circular drum in all sorts of places. There is, however, no evidence whatsoever that the bodhran *as we know it* was at all widespread or popular in Irish rural music prior to the 1950s. There is also not the slightest evidence of any sort to suggest that the style of bodhran playing *as we know it* (that tabla-like pressing of the skin to change the pitch and give that tippety-plop-a-tappa-tarrrpa effect) was practised at all, let alone popular, prior to the 1950s or even 1960s.
The bodhran, of course, did not emerge out of the blue entirely, but we know without doubt that its popularity is only a matter of the last few decades. Anything else is romantic fantasy, disappointing as that may be.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Bodhrans
The oldest to listen to in Irish music is the synthesizer
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Bodhrans
No no no! ye are all wrong.
The whats it called was invented in 1959 by Culchie Moran in Mullingar after a feed of porter and gob of chewing tobacco.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: Bodhrans
Bliss why do you think lesson are a recipe for disaster? i ve had lessons from great players and it helped so much.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: Bodhrans
Aren't most drums "circular" ? The bodhran belongs to the family of FRAME drums.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Bodhrans
So called "foot-tapping music" ie that with a logical and captivating rhythm has always attracted percussive accompaniment. Most societies that winnowed grain for bread had a hoop with a skin on it for this winnowing purpose and it was an obvious extension to play it. My grandfather used to play the tobacco tin, matchbox, spoons and a pocketfull of pennies, I'm sure be would have played the bodhran had there been a winnowing thing in the room.
I play it because women go for it.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhrans
>but really, it is just a goatskin on a round frame
Inasmuch as a flute is a black pole with holes in it or a set of pipes are the same with a bit of tied up grass at one end and a few brass buttons here and there.
Great display of knowledge here, as usual.
r
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by RobBBQ
Re: Bodhrans
As I understand it, the bodhran has been around for a while but was not used to accompany melody instruments until fairly recently. There seems to have been some controversy associated with it's introduction at music sessions, but it's certainly here to stay now. A well played bodhran can really add to the overall sound of a session, a badly played one can make everybody want to pack up and go home.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Murph
Re: Bodhrans
Hello Sara,
Go to;
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bodhrandojo/
for the most informed group of people who can answer your questions in detail.
There was an illuminating talk 2 weeks ago by Rolf Wagels at the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester. Rolf gave a presentation citing recorded examples of bodhran playing from 1927 to present day.
Ignore any sniping opinions that occassionally appear on this 'The Session' forum.
The bodhran is a musical instrument and has plenty of devotees who know only too well the value of applying yourself to learning and understanding it's role in ITM and other genres. It will take time, just as any instrument. How much time depends on your natural aptitude and the effort you put in to your practice.
Oh, and if you can, find yourself a teacher to put you on the right track.
All the best love,
Gran
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhrans
Where do I start?
All it is is ego.
Nothing more than inbility.
Knowing nothing.
Expecting everthing.
Rejecting music.
Satisfaction with the substandard
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Don't give up the day job Llig. You are starting to rival McGonagle.
To answer Saint. I have sat at numerous sessions with bodhran players who attended classes, and were taught rhythms, say a jig rhythm and then a reel one, without music. On many occasions they have been playing but if the music varies, they plough on with that steady rhythm, which means it is out of sync, and starts putting everyone else off. Above all else, playing a bodhran means listening to the music, so is only for true purists, who really appreciate the music. If you want to show off, get a fiddle.
If you get someone to show you how to hold the playing hand, and get a up and down movement, practice until you get a basic beat. After that it is a matter of playing along with LPs, CDs, tapes, Youtube or whatever, and it will improve. Old ceilidh band LPS were good, perfect timing, although ypou would soon realise a session is usually faster. But if you have done the groundwork before going to the session, well you should be ok.
There is nothing wrong with advice from a player, but these "classes" with 40 people playing to no music in a room, sends shudders down my spine.
As for the do in Manchester at the College of Music, trhere are all sorts of cons nowadays. Anyone want to buy London Bridge?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
As others have said rhythm is one of the most important things, along with knowing the music you are playing. Doubling on a melody instrument can really help your bodhran playing. Try starting on an instrument like penny whistle and learn how to play tunes. And most of all: listen. Buy a lot of recordings of great ITM players, get to as many concerts as you can. These recordings don't have to have bodhran on them because the music is rhythmically vital enough to note need it.
I learned to play first by having someone who played the drum show me how to hold the tipper and some of the basics. And then I just experimented, watched those who really knew how to play it and figured things out on it. Now I play at session and I'm comfortable with pulling the drum out anywhere.
I play on a 16in drum, a lovely tunable instrument made by Eckermann. I first tried out an 18in another person at session had, but I felt it was too big for me. If you can ever get to a place that has even cheap drums, you could pick them up and see which one feels like a good size for you.
It's a lovely instrument -- best of luck in your new endeavour!
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Crysania
Re: Bodhrans
Mr Bliss,
I'm sure you didn't mean to insult anyone with your suggestion that the 'do' ,as you put it, at the College of Music in Manchester was a 'con'. Had you attended said event you would have found yourself in the company of pleasant, knowlegeable players keen to promote all aspects of musical bodhran playing.
May I ask you to retract your remark lest it be misinterpreted as a slight on the hard work of those invoved?
Bless you,
Gran
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhrans
Thanks guys for the input. Just so you guys know, I do play some melody instruments. I already play the fiddle, and learning how to play the whistle. Now this may not be something I'll try right away, but it's definetly something I'd like to try eventually. Unfortunely around here, it would be difficult to find a teacher, so I would have to resort to learning off the net and/or books. I also have about 2 dozen cds, so that should give me something to play along with.
Sara
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Bodhrans
Never, ever, look at a book on how to play the bodhran. You could end up with a dislocated arm.
Gran Cassa, many people ask me for bodhran lessons. I tell them I could charge £10 a lesson, and fart about for a year. I then tell them there is only one lesson, which I have repeated here on occasion.
A discussion on the history of bodhran could be interesting, and although I play the instrument, I would not associate it with the College of Music on Oxford Road. Maybe in the Clarence years ago, further up the Road.
And many cons require hard work. Do not belittle con artists.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
I once got a little book on how to play bodhran. The main message it said was listen to recordings with bodhran on them. True. I kid you not.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Bodhrans
“I've asked a bodhran player to start either a jig or reel rhythm, and they couldn't do it without having me start a tune. Surist sign the player in question doesn't have what it takes.”
Hey Ailin,
Although I could very readily start a reel, jig, hornpipe, or on a good day a polka with out a melody player I would be very reluctant to do so as I believe what it takes is to listen to the execution of the tune and follow the melody not lead it.
Hey Celtic Lass,
I must say the tamest ever, congratulations this is quite an accomplishment around here even if only for this long, wouldn’t you say Irishfiddler32
? Great advice has been given and pay close mind to Bliss’ last comment, sans the bit about the College of Music in Manchester anyway.
Listen, listen, and then listen some more. There are brilliant nuances in the tunes when played with passion and ability and you can follow them to great places whilst beating that old goat. The two greatest bits of counsel I ever received about the playing of the bodhrán was follow the tune and play what’s in your head. Using static rhythm patterns adds no life what-so-ever to the tune, actually it can take quite a bit away. Some call it flattening the tune out. Also pose your questions over there at the Yahoo group already identified.
Welcome to the journey!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by ejsant
Re: Bodhrans
Great stuff, ejsant. As I always said, get a basic rhythm, practice, then it's instinct, like all percussion.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
At risk of starting a controversy, Ed, I take exception to the notion that there is any advantage to knowing a tune before you can play bodhran. If you know ITM, and know the difference between a jig and a reel (etc.), you can most certainly play an effective backup. Knowing the tune only allows you to punctuate or lay off certain phrases, which is colorful, but hardly necessary. Many bands start a tune with a bodhran rhythm. When I ask a bodhran player to start a rhythm, I do so in hopes of being inspired to a particular tune by whatever he or she plays. It's just a fun thing to do, but I am surprised when a player cannot do it. As a bodhran player myself, I would love to be asked to start a beat and see what someone kicks in with. I used to do this all the time with a group of drummers and me on Boehm flute. Great fun!
Most of the time, I switch to bodhran when I DON'T know the tune. Never had a bit of trouble. I don't come in at the beginning, and I work in gradually, but once I have the feel of where the tune is going, it's full speed ahead. If the tune changes, I drop out until I get my footing, or find that it would be best to sit out. You have to get instictive about this. I love bodhran, but let's not make it more than it is.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Bodhrans
My view is that there is a great advantage if the bodhran player knows the tune. Yes, any half decent goatskin player will discern a jig from a reel etc, and keep a steady beat, but if s/he knows the tune they know what's coming, and can fit their playing beats into the particular nuances of that melody, and that's much more than just being"colourful". It's adding to the whole musical...erm... experience (whoa-ho, nearly said performance there!) Anyway it enriches the music, if done well, in my opinion.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Bodhrans
Ailin now agrees with Ed and me, although she doesn't realise it.
"You have to get instintive about this".
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
If you accompany a tune you don't know the best you can do is to beat out a very unsubtle rhythm. You are not in sympathy with what you are playing along with at all. A really good bodhran player (as common as rocking horse sh*t) will be playing a line that is completely integrated with the tune, because they know the tune. Anything less than this is second-rate.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
Now Steve is comparing me to rocking horse sh*t? What did I do to deserve such treatment?
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
“I've asked a bodhran player to start either a jig or reel rhythm, and they couldn't do it without having me start a tune. Surist sign the player in question doesn't have what it takes.”
There have been occasions where someone has asked me to play a rhythm for a reel or jig so they could come in after I start. If I don't know what tune they intend to play I can certainly lay down a basic rhythm... and I know the difference between the tune rhythms. As soon as they come in I'm listening to the tune to find out if I know it. If I do then I'll know what to do. If I don't I'll study it's structure the first time through to get an idea of what to do. This is the same approach I take when tunes switch in a session, but in that case often I'll stop and decide whether to come back in based on several factors that might include putting it down and picking up a melody instrument. If I don't know the tune I'll listen to it to determine if the bodhran would add anything or not. If I think it will I'll try to sus out what's going on in the tune listening to it go by once or twice. But If I asked someone else to start either a jig or reel rhythm for me and they couldn't -- that would definitely be cause for alarm.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
Good work Bliss. Nothing common about bodhran players.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhrans
Dear Mr. Bliss,
It saddens me that you felt unable to retract your unkind remarks about the RNCM Day of Percussion and their Bodhran feature.
Thank you for alerting me to craftiness of' 'con-men' but I can assure you that with the advantage of old age, and the experience that brings, I am able to discern between a genuine musician and a 'con-man'.
There were many people there who, like you, are keen to hear the bodhran played well. The talk and lessons on the bodhran was beneficial in promoting the instrument to both 'seasoned campaigners' and the uninitiated.
This friendly dialogue and well informed advice from educated players has informed my musical understanding and as a result of this I never stop learning
To belittle an event that you did not attend is unfair. In pouring scorn on the best efforts of others ' the baby gets thrown out with the bath-water' and you arguments lose their potency, which is a great shame.
Yours sincerely,
Gran
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhrans
To play the any instrument including the bodhran well, you need to know the tunes. Instinct is not enough with any instrument, and the bodhran would be taken a lot more seriously as an ITM instrument if players didn't just 'go with the flow' and busk their way through tunes thinking they sound like Tommy Hayes.
That said, at sessions if you are competent enough you can play the tunes as long as you don't try to get too clever. Keep to a steady beat and don't try the pyrotechnics out until you know the tune inside out.
On all those recordings we all love to listen to, all the musicians knew the tune, had practiced it and didn't just hammer away - and includes the bodhran players.
Listening is practice!
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Bodhrans
“At risk of starting a controversy, Ed, I take exception to the notion that there is any advantage to knowing a tune before you can play bodhran.”
Ailin,
I don’t think it a controversy at all, just different opinions of the potential of this brilliant instrument and its place in the music.
The way I see it not following a skilled and passionate melody player as they execute the brilliant nuances of a tune and simply beating out an appropriate rhythm leaves one with only the basic of satisfactions available to them whilst playing this soulful instrument. Sure if one doesn’t know the tune but is a skilled percussionist and plays the bodhrán and again only beats out an appropriate rhythm pattern things may sound acceptable or even fine but as I see it there is a magic, a oneness if you will, that is never attained.
Now in arranged playing of tunes and or sets, I’m going to say it Key Maniac Lad so duck, or performances, a bodhrán intro can be very exciting and I agree one should know how to beat out the different rhythm patterns with-out the aid of the melody but to leave it at that as I said I believe one is short changing themselves and their experience in playing the music and it is in this that the advantage of knowing the tune is found. Jeez that’s some long sentence there isn’t it?
Hey Bliss,
It may be a dangerous day that we agree like this. This may warrant either going out to buy a lottery ticket or holing up in the storm cellar.
Greetings all,
I have to say that I am impressed by the evolution I am witnessing here, thank you to all for a nearly non-scoffing bodhrán discussion.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by ejsant
Re: Bodhrans
Why is this board full of pedantic people who find it impossible to read a whole post?
No-one suggested you lift a bodhran and "instinct" takes over. I did say you get a basic rhythm, then practice, practice, practice and PRACTICE, to lps, cds and tapes. Eventually the instinct takes over.
After all that practice to LPS CDS and the rest, you will know the tunes. Like everything else it is a combination of things.
Playing the fiddle, flute, pipes, harp, whistle, or banjo, or ANY INSTRUMENT, it helps if you know the tunes.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
Don't rate Tommy Hayes.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
Actually, neither do I.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Bodhrans
I am not in substantive disagreement with what anyone has said here, but I really do think that it is NOT the job of a percussionist to "follow the tune" per se. A steady rhythm with tasteful variation is what's really called for. When you start "following the tune," I would submit that you are drawing too much attention to yourself. The bodhran should not be that prominent, IMO. It should serve as the vehicle the melody rides on. I rate myself an excellent bodhran player, and I do play slightly differently, and probably better, when I know the tune, but for session playing, I maintain that it is a nicety, at best. I've just never found it a challenge to play interesting (and appropriate) stuff with a tune that is new to me. It's just not that tought.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Bodhrans
You need to be into it. You sit down with a flue player for the first time, let him start, and if there are only two of you play by hand, not a tipper, and it can be great, as the drum can compliment the tune.
Knowing the tune doesn't mean following it, I do that to songs on the mandolin, play the melody if I know it, play harmony if it is new, the new giving you a chance to be expressive. Playing the bodhran can be the same.
As for drawing attention to oneself...........
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
Just read Grans bit about being older, and the experience that brings. You must be in your 70s if you are older than me. When I mentioned the Clarence on Oxford Road, I mean in the 1970s.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
Well then ... so that's the average session for you.
Ailin says, " I rate myself an excellent bodhran player, and I do play slightly differently, and probably better, when I know the tune, but for session playing, I maintain that it is a nicety, at best."
Ailin, do me a favour and e-mail me befor you come within a thousand miles of me so that I can put another thousand miles between us.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Considering the subject of the thread (and how threadbare this topic has become - you have to question your own sanity when you post yet again to a bodhran thread, which is indeed what I'm doing now...), some very good points have been made. Naturally, one has to loftily ignore those who misjudge the general intent...
One thing I don't agree with, going from my own experience of trying to learn this most detested of all ITM instruments. Sorry Mr Bliss. Practising by playing along with recordings is not only a waste of time, its actually worse than useless. The interaction between you and the other musicians is the sine qua non of bodhran playing (just as it is with other instruments of course). A good bodhran player is neither leading (and, lamentably, how many of us have had to "follow" an over-loud, insensitive, usually incompetent bodhran player!) nor following, as you do playing along with CDs. Rather, he or she is firmly "in the groove" as an equal with all the others present. A great bunch of session players who love each other's company and understand each other's playing is almost like a well-oiled machine, a single organism (at least, I'm pretty well-oiled by about 11p.m....). Oh, I can play the drum really well with "Bothy Band Live," but I'm complete sh1te when I do it in the pub. What makes me so valuable as a bodhran player is that I recognise this and act on it (by leaving the damn thing at home!). Bejaysus, I've made meself feel bloody virtuous now...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
If you want to learn the bodhrán, there's only one thing for it - watch other people play it, then copy them exactly. Seriously. I was given a bodhrán for my 13th birthday, and never really touched it for about a year, when I went to a summer school where there were about 3-4 bodhránists. I watched them play, studid their hand and wrist movements and all that, went home, picked up my drum, and within about a week I could play it. Really, it's not that hard, as long as you can play a proper instrument as well...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Bodhrans
Correction - I *studied* their hand and wrist movements..
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Bodhrans
Well, good luck if you really think you could play it in a week, but look back at thread history and ask yourself why seasoned sessioneers wouldn't really want you at their pub. Not that hard, eh? One of the greastest teachers of the diatonic harmonica, a "simple" little thing with only 20 reeds, said that learning the 10-hole harmonica is as hard as mastering a grand piano. You have more work to do, Joe.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
Must agree with Steve on the last bit, but not earlier. The reason you start with CDS etc is so that you just don't arrive at a session on day one, or after a week like Joe CSS, and make a hydraulics.
It is a combination of things. Get the hand right, basic rhythm, practice with CDS, go to session, re-learn in a live environment and playing with others, more practice, and you conatantly improve, some to the point of greatness.
As for the bit about "proper instruments", are you not aware that the bodhran is recognised by the ROYAL COLLEGE of MUSIC, in Manchester? So no more sneering talk of "real" instruments.
I learnt the fiddle in 5 days, but I am not very good at it.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
wow I got such a good chuckle off this thread! thank you for posting
did you know the 5 string "bluegrass" banjo was introduced to "traditional" Irish music as far back as the 1840s?
WAY before the bodhran (110 years if you believe what you read here)
I read recently that the bodhran came originally from Spain after WWII in the late 40s, early 50s, where it was played with a single headed mallet, and that the tapper as we know it was introduced a decade later
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by celticagent
Re: Bodhrans
All frame drums are from the one family. As ITM came from N.Africa, the Spanish connection is a possibility given the moorish influence there, but the bit about the 1950s is nonsense.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
To play the bodhran one must first capture a goat, kill it with bare hands, walk around it 7 times speaking only in gaelic these words "I killed a goat." Next the Animal must be butchered... not with blade, but ancient stone. The skin must be treated with the dripings of freshly hewn oak bark that is first blessed by a druid. Then one must journey to the highest point in Ireland and fast for 3 days and 3 nights before assembling the frame on the full moon. We are not yet to the tipper...
Ive seen people pick up the fiddle and play it well in 24 months...(I dont mean those who had the classical lessons as a kid)--- Ive seen people pick up the bodhran and play t well quickly... its about whats inside of the person. The Bodhran is a musical instrument that can be played well or not so well... Ive seen more guitars wreck a session than bodhrans...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Bodhrans
The frame drum is ancient, but as to exactly when it arrived in Ireland I have no idea. The idea of playing it in the fashion that we associate with the bodhran didn't come about until the mid 20th century.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
I never said I could play it well in a week. I just said I could play it. I wouldn't have dreamt of going to a session with it then, cos I knew I would have ruined it. But I had definitely "got" it within a week. NOW I would say I can play it well.
As for the harmonica, I completely agree. I've had one since I was a little boy, and still cannot fathom how to get anything out of it except a C and G chord. It's MUCH harder than a piano.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Bodhrans
If the bodhran really was introduced to Ireland from Spain in the c20, it shouldn't be hard to verify its existence and history in that country.
I wonder if it has caught on with native percussionists beyond the fringes of the Europeanised world and the ITM parallel universe.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Bodhrans
Funny that about the harmonica. I don't know what a C or G chord is, but I can play the harmonica. Come to think of it after 40 years playing it, I don't know what any of the notes are.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
Hmm. I know at least two bodhran players who have played it for 40 years plus and who don't know the difference between the tune types. Really.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
Yeah but I bet they have a feel for a tune once they hear it. And a little learning does no harm.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Bodhrans
Maybe, but if having the feel for a tune means playing all hornpipes like marches...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
Apologies if anyone has posted this link before, but I think it answers the questions posed by nicholas above:
http://www.ceolas.org/instruments/bodhran/history.shtml
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Bodhrans
Like anything, it doesn't need a proof of antiquity, which so many scamper about and root for, to find appreciation, to be considered officially 'Irish' ~ and to be played with skill and consideration for others... As a 'bodhran' in the modern sense of its use, it may very well be considered at best 20th Century, but that doesn't take away from its magic. Only bad player, 'head bangers', can spoil that for us... They have much to answer for, including a general feeling of unease when someone comes in with anything round and suggestive of a bodhran...
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Bodhrans
I kind of agree ... except I'd say that anything less than 'excellent' in terms of the bodhran tends to be bad.
I agree - no proof of antiquity needed. Anything that sounds good is good.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Bodhrans
I think it's safe to say that the problems associated with the bodhran have nothing to do with it's legitimacy or contribution to the music when played well, but everything to do with the perception by many of it being an easy access instrument.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
BTW Bliss:
Bite Harmonica & blow = C chord
Bite Harmonica & suck = G chord
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Bodhrans
On the question of whether it is better to know the tunes before you play along wih the bodhrán, the answer is most definitely yes!
I've heard some incredibly technical players thrash along with tunes they don't know and it is a shambles; they are more often than not at odds with the tune, oblivious to the fact, too wrapped up in their own sound.
If you must play along with a tune you don't know keep it very simple; otherwise you may as well flush your reputation down the toilet.
I've been playing the bodhrán for 26 years and was teaching classes when I was 11 so hopefully I know what I'm on about.
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Bodhrans
1.Not only is it important to know the tune when playing the bodhran its important to know the people playing the tune because people can play the same tune with different rhythm.
2.The no. of years spent playing does nt matter because if your doing something wrong for 10 years or 20 years its still wrong. So a lesson or two at the start can put you in the right direction and give you a good base structure to build on.
3.I agree with bliss about learning rhythms it can be a disater .great bodhran players can anticipate whats coming next in someones play.
Test yourself try playing along with micho russell ,playing basic rhythms wont work with micho.
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by Saint
Re: Bodhrans
Thank you Joe CSS, I will remember, and treasure that.
Conan started off banging bid lids in the streets, so had a head start on everyone else(N.Ireland joke).
And Saint has it right, a great player can play with anyone, any tune, strange or not. When playing with strangers you simply listen to the first part of the tune before joining in, and ALL great bodhran players know when the tune is going to change into a new tune, because they can count up to three.
# Posted on February 27th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
Bid lids, eh, Bliss? I hope your cold gets better soon.
# Posted on February 27th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
Thing is, Joe, you won't get much further than Carolan's Welcome with a C harp.
# Posted on February 27th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
You're just doing what I do, Steve - pop back every now and then, post 3 posts on 3 different threads and go away for a bit.
Must be our shared Cornish ... ness ... (was going to say 'ancestry' but didn't know whether you were, in fact, Cornish - my mother was of an old Cornish family)
# Posted on February 27th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Bodhrans
At this time of night, when the missus has hit the sack, I flit twixt computer and domestic chores and patting the cats (and topping up the wine glass unless it's a Tuesday or a Thursday). Sometimes I find that forum events just overtake me, which is no bad thing sometimes! I'd like to claim Cornish*tude but I've only been here for 20 years and my incorrigible northern accent is a dead giveaway.
*Bodhran content: if it rains tomorrow I'm going to practise mine. I've inherited a Howard 16" non-tuneable job and I have a tipper that was hand-turned for me years ago by none other than Tony Dixon of whistle fame. Luvly feller he is too though he once "accidentally" stole an A harp from me for about nine months, until I spotted it one night at the Wellington in Boscastle lurking at the bottom of his pipes case!
# Posted on February 27th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
Can you believe that the swearword filter wouldn't let me have "Cornish*tude" because it has "sh*t" in the middle! In the words of Victor Meldrew....
# Posted on February 27th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bodhrans
I have had a Howard 16" non-tuneable for about 12 years now, and I can honestly say it's a really geat drum. I went to Brian's house to buy a 18" tuneable (great drum, terrible finish), which I then bought.
The tuneable went years ago, but the 16" has stayed and I still love it to bits, even though I rarely play it out these days, preferring my bouzouki instead (rhythm, tunes and chords - sweet!).
# Posted on February 27th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack