Does anyone know either a good tab songbook or good artist that features guitar accompaniment and vocal? Most of the books and artists are doing airs and such. I'm interested in fingerpicking and strumming patterns that create an "Irish beat" to back songs. Thanks in advance for any advice!
I think you may have to be more specific before you get useful answers. I wonder if you might do better to do more listening first? Then you can home in on some particular performers who are working in the direction that intersts you.
Go to Sheet Music Plus on the web, and search Irish music. They have a number of books that are listed as Irish finger picking lessons that also contain a CD.
John Doyle has put out a couple of albums lately where he accompanies himself very well as he sings. Also, he does some fine work on the Heidi Talbot and Sean Doyle records that he produced. Donal Clancy also does exceptionally fine accompaniment work (like with Danu on their last few albums), he may not be as flashy as some, but his work really enhances what the vocalist is doing. It ain't Irish, but there is some fine accompaniment on Kate Rusby's albums--that Ian Carr is exceptional. And I agree with Hugo, Paul Brady really set the standard for accompanying Irish song with a guitar.
If you are a fingerpicker, as i am... the times I am utterly forced to sing.... not very good, but can carry a tune, generally a pub gig where they want a change from tunes...I like to work out the melody as a tune, and play that along with the song...you can stress some parts with a chord strum, but it's mostly melody... if this makes no sense, I can send a private email with a link to some of it if you want. Just send me a private email and I will respond.
Other than that, Paul Brady. Not sure.... can hear in my head exactly right now, but did Paul B. flatpick or fingerpick. I am pretty sure Arty McGlynn is flatpicking, though can sure make it sound like fingerpicking. Donal Clancy is both a great flatpicker and fingerpicker and cross picker. His easy transition from one technique to the other is very astounding to me. usually someone does one or the other.
What is an "Irish beat"? Is that different from beats in other parts of the world? I would suspect that it is the song rather than the accompaniment that makes it sound Irish. I mean, "I'll Tell Me Ma" and "The Rare Oul' Times" both sound Irish without any accompaniment.
I generally try to avoid strumming patterns in songs and instead let the strum be guided by the vocal, which means I can't strum the guitar part without singing at the same time (for example, in a recording situation).
When fingerpicking, patterns cetainly make accompaniment simpler but I also sometimes take the tune approach outlined above. The picking pattern I use most, apart from Travis picking, would probably be pimapami with the ima on strings 4-2 and the ami on strings 1-3. That's assuming you're in 4/4. 3/4 is a different ball game.
Using DADGAD will help you to get that "Irish beat" that you seek, but you could also try open G (DGDGBD) or DGDGCD.
Beg... that's what I think they call "crosspicking"... I can't wrap my brain around it, though it's all down to what you are used to I suppose. I will at times do a flat strum, but with the thumbpick, but if using a flatpick it knocks out your index finger for picking melody... so those who crosspick have to have a real good control over the rest of their fingers, maybe including the pinky. It takes great skill in my opinion.
As for Irish so called beat.... DADGAD almost always helps with tune picking, or at least some open tuning. I generally use DADGAD. Forgot to mention that. For tunes and songs anyway, for backing, just dropped D.
So if you are doing songs, I would just go to the beat of the song that happens to be Irish or Celtic.
Nashville session players are pretty much expected to be masters of the flatpick-and-fingers style. It's just fingerpicking with a flatpick substituted for the thumb(pick). I think it was developed as a conventient way to move between flatpicking and fingerpicking at will. I can't see any other advantage to it.
Crosspicking is playing arpeggios with just a flatpick. It's maddenly hard to learn, but can sound great - at least in a bluegrass context. I used to be almost minimally competent at it, but it's gotten away from me now. The technique tends to produce a lot of syncopated notes, which might not seem appropriate for Irish trad stuff.
I've got a CD with John Doyle working with Liz Carroll on fiddle.
He's very good. Ms. Carroll is superb. But they do a variant of ITM that is more of a contemporary adaptation. So If you are looking for accompaniment with more trad players, you might want to check elsewhere.
I will always be amazed at hybrid, cross, or whatever picking that is. I am no good with a flatpick, I like fingers. I use no particular "pattern" picking, it all depends on the tune, just follow the tune with the right timing and some feeling, know the tune, play parts of it, know the notes, throw them in when the mood strikes. Same for a song. Hear it in your head or read it as notes, pick it out and then fill it out, add some chords or make up partial ones, build on it, I think that's the way to accompany a song or a tune.
Being an "old timer" I remember when there was no "Irish Style" for accompaniment. It never used to be an issue, was never talked about, this is going back to the 70's and early 80s. We just had our particular styles of backing the tunes or songs. We were all remarkably different is what I remember, but if it fit the music, and we knew the music, we were welcomed. No one was ever told "that's not Irish style". There seem to be so many restrictions these days, you have to sound like Doyle or Clancy, this one or that one to be considered Irish Style. Not that they are not great at what they do, that's their style, I like them, I especially think Donal Clancy is one of the genius guitar players around these days, who can move in and out of several different styles with ease.
I was away from the music for two decades, child rearing, though playing fingerstyle tunes at home and had the odd house session or a friend or two over to play, but then came back out about five years ago. Things really changed. I felt like Rip Van Iris. People were dead or gone, newcomers where there instead, others literally had long white beards. I stepped into a world where guitar players were often challenged, and I welcomed that, since I never had given up playing, and they would end up saying.... "you seem to really know the music very well, but That's Not Irish Style!" A few hated it, thought fingerstye had no place in it, it should be a hard driving flatpicked rhythm like in the super groups, others liked it thankfully. Whew.
Maybe an "Irish Style" has emerged over 30 years, surely some superstar backers have emerged, are great at what they do, and have gotten out there and taught, and written books and put out instructional DVDs, so maybe they are now what is considered Irish Style.
Just interesting recalling those times. I'd like to hear more people develop a distinctive style though once they have the basics down, something new and interesting, as long as it suits the music and doesn't fight it. Styles come and go, who knows, in another 30 years maybe "Irish Style" will be totally different for backing.
OK...off on a tangent again, sorry.... basically though, let the tune or song dictate the picking style. There is no more valuable advice than to know the melody and not stray too far from it. That should be Irish Style or Irish Beat.
PS.... when someone tells me now "That's Not Irish Style", I seriously tell them, "I know, it's Iris Style". Sometimes... a perplexed look, like they are going to call the men in white coats, because we never got introduced. Oh well.... Bog... tell them it's Bogmanoc Style or Beat if anyone ever says that to you, that should get some funny looks. Sigh...we need to lighten up sometimes....
I don't think there is yet a "traditional Irish style" guitar accompaniment, just a lot of experimenting. Lots of approaches work well as long as you respect the music. When I first started learning Irish tunes, the guitar accompaniment was, often as not, no different from bluegrass or old-time. Today, people will tell you that's not right, that's not how it's done. Of course, all they really mean is they prefer something else. The same with song accompaniment.
The guitar in Irish music seems to have license to do just about anything. Much more than the piano, which sticks pretty much to the bass/chord/bass/chord pattern. The guitar can go off in harmonic and stylistic directions that would be out of bounds for other instruments. Why is that?
I thought cross-picking was a type of plectrum style that involved using the open strings to facilitate position jumps (and so apreggios and long runs) smoothly, even though it might require crossing one or more strings.
As for Irish style -- increasingly people lean towards DADGAD and a capo for keys that aren't D which is a largely treble drone orientated style with chordal movements below it. There are also other styles that are more bass driven, however these often require faster hand movement (changing chords every beat at times) to facilitate the bass movements. If its just songs though, open tunings are lend themselves more easily.
Yes, around NYC, it seemed the accompaniment was often an outgrowth of bluegrass, old time, etc. What changed was, in Irish music, people started hitting on the beat rather than on the off beat. I know many melody players cringe when someone hits on the off beat consistently and fills in the gaps between notes and bars, that in my humble opinion are best left open because they are supposed to be there. It's not a rule, but it is my personal rule and taste. The spaces between the notes to me are sacred, it's where you wait for the next note, split second though it may be. This may be the sign of a very obsessive compulsive mind, but the little things like this can make or break the overall sound. It just sounds wrong to hear Note/Chucka/Note/Chucka/note /Chucka. Sounds better to stay with the music....it's like Chinese (Irish) Water Torture to hear that all night.
Piano is interesting, the good pianists, don't just do the bass-chord-bass-chord, they do bits of melody, I've heard some really great pianists go off in a stylistic direction too. If people like it and it suits the music, then it works.
I never strummed in my life, a flatpick, it's like a foreign object. My first exposure to guitar was classical and ragtime. I somehow had a Pat Sky (yes, the piper, who used to be an old Folkies singer/songwriter/guitarplayer in the 60s) album, a Dave Van Ronk Album and Jim Kweskin. ... how they were in my house I don't know, the parents were into other things, and I was intrigued by the picking style. With a basic chord book and a pitch pipe, I tuned to the records and slowly followed them, and dissected tunes like The St. Louis Tickle, bit by bit until getting them. i was only 11 years old, should have been out at the playground!! I was hooked though. By the fact of some "fortunate accidents" in hunting and pecking on the strings, I got enough right to be inspired to do more.
Then off to England and Scotland at 19, got entranced with Renbourne, Davey Graham, Martin Carthy, etc. and it was all over. I had a friend who played those styles, who was intrigued by the ragtime and American tunes... we swapped tunes, I never went back to it, remember a rag or two, but would rather spend time playing jigs, reels, etc. on guitar as tunes. Find the melody and flesh them out with a thumb drone or a few partial chords. I never could wrap my brain around music reading, and somehow tab is worse, not easier.
So I was always a pretty melody based fingerpicker after coming back to NYC and finding Irish/Celtic trad music here. Others were coming out of bluegrass. There were some really nice players around the city back in the 70s, like John Dillon, a really nice subtle but solid flatpicker with a great feel for the music who is still around, Caesar Pacifici and Brian Brooks from Flying Cloud, Brian was more a fingerstyle player, more drive than I had, he and Caesar could play well together, two guitars...great sound. We were all really different, no one ever mentioned Irish Style or playing wrong. If you could handle the instrument that is, there were many attempting it with the bluegrass beat who could only alternate two chords. They were even well tolerated enough of the time too though.
Oddly the one place I was accused of playing Irish Style was at a party with old time musicians a few years back. One person said I was doing it all wrong, they DO NOT PLAY IRISH STYLE HERE!! I was in dropped D, and she said I didn't even know basic chords, tried to tell her I was playing in D or G but it looked different due to the dropped D tuning...it didn't compute, I went away! There... I sure was hitting on the wrong beat!
Iris, You put your finger on the #1 thing I am working on to improve my guitar accompaniment, making it smoother, hitting more of the beats, and getting more "tools" in my strumming "toolkit" besides the old timey American boom chucka stuff that was my bread and butter in the past.
Al.... I know some old time fiddlers around here, a duo, they are phenomenol. They have the wild feel of the old music. They ask me over to play with them sometimes, one got real exasperated once and asked, could I please, not change my ways, but add to them and learn real old time backing too, just to make them happy. They say they like how I play in Irish music (they come to some sessions and tear the house down... the masses often don't realize it ain't Irish) and know they don't quite fit in, but we always asked them to do some on their own they are so great....still, they pine away for a decent old time backer, LOL! I tried, it's just not in me! Maybe I didn't give it a fair shot, but I'd rather do what I am doing.
I think that's the main thing that separates Irish and Bluegrass backing... where you stress the beat. That's it.
I wonder where the Doyles and the rest learned their first music,,, an interesting study. Did they play bluegrass or country, classical, what? Donal Clancy told me when he was a kid he used to buy the Stefan Grossman Guitar Workshop videos, which were mainly blues and rags. He also had the influence at home of course though. Wonder where Arty McGlynn, know Renbourne is very well trained in music, with degrees and all, a major study of music, as for what he first played on guitar, don't know. Tony McManus, he'll be around playing for us at IAANJ 3/30 with Maeve Donnelly, so I'll ask him. That's a PLUG... for you Jersey/NY people by the way. I will soon list it in events ...waiting a bit so it doesn't go to end of the list and get forgotten....he is giving a workshop too!!
In an ideal world we would be able to move from one style to the other (like Martin Hayes does with different fiddle styles). I am beginning to hear that in John Doyle's playing as he picks stuff up from the Carolinas, which is where I think he lives now.
But unfortunately, it ain't a perfect world, and I myself am stuck with coordination and experience that is rather far from the Platonic ideal. So I practice, and play, and practice.....
If it weren't fun, I wouldn't be doing it!
I just wish I did it better, and every year, I get a little closer to what I want.
But fortunately for me, you can have fun at any skill level, and I am enjoying every step of the journey!
Right Al.... more fun than I have with anything else! Each "up" in skill level brings more inspiration too, it never has an ending.
Bob... you MAY actually be a LITTLE older than me... though I once asked a box player how old he was when he first performed and he said, four or five. So maybe I am older. I don't care about my age it's just a number anyway, but I am a granny! Started young though, LOL!
The Flying Cloud only made one album. They are old friends of mine and I am still in regular touch with two of them, Tony DeMarco and Dan Milner. Did you ever see them in NYC at the old Eagle Tavern? They were great., there every week, great times. Kathleen Collins was the first fiddler before Tony, and I think during the album recording they were in transition. If I recall properly she is on a track or two and Tony on the rest. I have to dig mine out and look.
I didn't know Kathleen Collins had played with Flying Cloud. I think it's all Tony on the album. I talked with Brian Conway after a concert last year and he said he had played with them a few times when Tony wasn't available. I would've loved seeing them live. It's a great album.
And, btw, in June I'll be..choke, cough...sixty. Old enough to ... well, never mind.
I think you really need to listen to all the old recordings and pick and choose what suits you best. there's no such thing as an ITM guitar style as the guitar is a relatively recent addition to the mix.
I like a lot of what Patrick Street does, and of course I'm a huge fan of Solas and Lunasa, but that's my personal taste
I think they billed it all as Tony, but i thought someone said way back she is on one or two tracks, I have to clarify that with Tony or Dan when i see one of them next. It was the band's lawyer at the time who said that, and I think he was at the recording sessions. Maybe she did some tracks and then they re did them with Tony, so he may be mistaken. Kathleen used to play regulary with them before Tony showed up in about 1976 or 77. They were a great band. With Two Great Singers, esp. when they sang duets. Brian Brooks and Dan Milner. I cut my teeth on the music listening to them, my well-spent youth!!
The Eagle was the place to be back then. On alternate weeks, they'd have a guest in, some of the greatest. I do recall Brian with them a few times. he also used to guest doing fiddle duets with Maureen Fitzpatrick. Also Willie Kelly and his brother Joe. Martin Carthy would play, all sorts of touring ,musicians would do a gig there. So much fun.
Thanks BegF.... I try!! I have cut the hell out of my thumb... not playing this week.
celticagent... true, but the hard driving rhythm has become more common so it's basically people new to the music who will say "That's not Irish Style!!". Love Patrick Street!
im pretty new to all this myself. i started playing dadgad about four years ago' about the same time i became hooked on ITM and this book was recomended to me; The Irish DADGAD guitar book BY Sara Mc Quaid. I found it exelent as it comes with a demo cd with the tunes. Hope this scratches the surface for you a little.
Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Does anyone know either a good tab songbook or good artist that features guitar accompaniment and vocal? Most of the books and artists are doing airs and such. I'm interested in fingerpicking and strumming patterns that create an "Irish beat" to back songs. Thanks in advance for any advice!
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by bogmanoc
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I think you may have to be more specific before you get useful answers. I wonder if you might do better to do more listening first? Then you can home in on some particular performers who are working in the direction that intersts you.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Go to Sheet Music Plus on the web, and search Irish music. They have a number of books that are listed as Irish finger picking lessons that also contain a CD.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by pearse
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Paul Brady is nice.
He has a guitar DVD too
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
i saw a boom on steve cooneys style. i dont know if thats what your looking for but im told hes as good as they come.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by Kevo32A
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Arty McGlyn
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
John Doyle has put out a couple of albums lately where he accompanies himself very well as he sings. Also, he does some fine work on the Heidi Talbot and Sean Doyle records that he produced. Donal Clancy also does exceptionally fine accompaniment work (like with Danu on their last few albums), he may not be as flashy as some, but his work really enhances what the vocalist is doing. It ain't Irish, but there is some fine accompaniment on Kate Rusby's albums--that Ian Carr is exceptional. And I agree with Hugo, Paul Brady really set the standard for accompanying Irish song with a guitar.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
If you are a fingerpicker, as i am... the times I am utterly forced to sing.... not very good, but can carry a tune, generally a pub gig where they want a change from tunes...I like to work out the melody as a tune, and play that along with the song...you can stress some parts with a chord strum, but it's mostly melody... if this makes no sense, I can send a private email with a link to some of it if you want. Just send me a private email and I will respond.
Other than that, Paul Brady. Not sure.... can hear in my head exactly right now, but did Paul B. flatpick or fingerpick. I am pretty sure Arty McGlynn is flatpicking, though can sure make it sound like fingerpicking. Donal Clancy is both a great flatpicker and fingerpicker and cross picker. His easy transition from one technique to the other is very astounding to me. usually someone does one or the other.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
What is an "Irish beat"? Is that different from beats in other parts of the world? I would suspect that it is the song rather than the accompaniment that makes it sound Irish. I mean, "I'll Tell Me Ma" and "The Rare Oul' Times" both sound Irish without any accompaniment.
I generally try to avoid strumming patterns in songs and instead let the strum be guided by the vocal, which means I can't strum the guitar part without singing at the same time (for example, in a recording situation).
When fingerpicking, patterns cetainly make accompaniment simpler but I also sometimes take the tune approach outlined above. The picking pattern I use most, apart from Travis picking, would probably be pimapami with the ima on strings 4-2 and the ami on strings 1-3. That's assuming you're in 4/4. 3/4 is a different ball game.
Using DADGAD will help you to get that "Irish beat" that you seek, but you could also try open G (DGDGBD) or DGDGCD.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Brady does a kind of hybrid picking, where he uses flatpick and middle and ring finger.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by BegF
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Thanks to all. I'm taking the names and searching for the CDs.
As far as an Irish beat, Donald, I guess I mean the beat that gets your toe tapping and your head swaying.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by bogmanoc
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Beg... that's what I think they call "crosspicking"... I can't wrap my brain around it, though it's all down to what you are used to I suppose. I will at times do a flat strum, but with the thumbpick, but if using a flatpick it knocks out your index finger for picking melody... so those who crosspick have to have a real good control over the rest of their fingers, maybe including the pinky. It takes great skill in my opinion.
As for Irish so called beat.... DADGAD almost always helps with tune picking, or at least some open tuning. I generally use DADGAD. Forgot to mention that. For tunes and songs anyway, for backing, just dropped D.
So if you are doing songs, I would just go to the beat of the song that happens to be Irish or Celtic.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Nashville session players are pretty much expected to be masters of the flatpick-and-fingers style. It's just fingerpicking with a flatpick substituted for the thumb(pick). I think it was developed as a conventient way to move between flatpicking and fingerpicking at will. I can't see any other advantage to it.
Crosspicking is playing arpeggios with just a flatpick. It's maddenly hard to learn, but can sound great - at least in a bluegrass context. I used to be almost minimally competent at it, but it's gotten away from me now. The technique tends to produce a lot of syncopated notes, which might not seem appropriate for Irish trad stuff.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I've got a CD with John Doyle working with Liz Carroll on fiddle.
He's very good. Ms. Carroll is superb. But they do a variant of ITM that is more of a contemporary adaptation. So If you are looking for accompaniment with more trad players, you might want to check elsewhere.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by zippydw
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I thought crosspicking was exclusive use of flatpick across the strings - that those bluesgrass boys play.
I could be wrong, but I thought the combination of flatpick and fingers was called hybrid picking - suppose it doesn't matter what it's called.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by BegF
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I enjoy LC's playing, but to me it sounds more an American/Irish hybrid than trad Irish. Especially her own compositions.
# Posted on February 22nd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I will always be amazed at hybrid, cross, or whatever picking that is. I am no good with a flatpick, I like fingers. I use no particular "pattern" picking, it all depends on the tune, just follow the tune with the right timing and some feeling, know the tune, play parts of it, know the notes, throw them in when the mood strikes. Same for a song. Hear it in your head or read it as notes, pick it out and then fill it out, add some chords or make up partial ones, build on it, I think that's the way to accompany a song or a tune.
Being an "old timer" I remember when there was no "Irish Style" for accompaniment. It never used to be an issue, was never talked about, this is going back to the 70's and early 80s. We just had our particular styles of backing the tunes or songs. We were all remarkably different is what I remember, but if it fit the music, and we knew the music, we were welcomed. No one was ever told "that's not Irish style". There seem to be so many restrictions these days, you have to sound like Doyle or Clancy, this one or that one to be considered Irish Style. Not that they are not great at what they do, that's their style, I like them, I especially think Donal Clancy is one of the genius guitar players around these days, who can move in and out of several different styles with ease.
I was away from the music for two decades, child rearing, though playing fingerstyle tunes at home and had the odd house session or a friend or two over to play, but then came back out about five years ago. Things really changed. I felt like Rip Van Iris. People were dead or gone, newcomers where there instead, others literally had long white beards. I stepped into a world where guitar players were often challenged, and I welcomed that, since I never had given up playing, and they would end up saying.... "you seem to really know the music very well, but That's Not Irish Style!" A few hated it, thought fingerstye had no place in it, it should be a hard driving flatpicked rhythm like in the super groups, others liked it thankfully. Whew.
Maybe an "Irish Style" has emerged over 30 years, surely some superstar backers have emerged, are great at what they do, and have gotten out there and taught, and written books and put out instructional DVDs, so maybe they are now what is considered Irish Style.
Just interesting recalling those times. I'd like to hear more people develop a distinctive style though once they have the basics down, something new and interesting, as long as it suits the music and doesn't fight it. Styles come and go, who knows, in another 30 years maybe "Irish Style" will be totally different for backing.
OK...off on a tangent again, sorry.... basically though, let the tune or song dictate the picking style. There is no more valuable advice than to know the melody and not stray too far from it. That should be Irish Style or Irish Beat.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
PS.... when someone tells me now "That's Not Irish Style", I seriously tell them, "I know, it's Iris Style". Sometimes... a perplexed look, like they are going to call the men in white coats, because we never got introduced. Oh well.... Bog... tell them it's Bogmanoc Style or Beat if anyone ever says that to you, that should get some funny looks. Sigh...we need to lighten up sometimes....
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Ah, yes. I remember it well...
I don't think there is yet a "traditional Irish style" guitar accompaniment, just a lot of experimenting. Lots of approaches work well as long as you respect the music. When I first started learning Irish tunes, the guitar accompaniment was, often as not, no different from bluegrass or old-time. Today, people will tell you that's not right, that's not how it's done. Of course, all they really mean is they prefer something else. The same with song accompaniment.
The guitar in Irish music seems to have license to do just about anything. Much more than the piano, which sticks pretty much to the bass/chord/bass/chord pattern. The guitar can go off in harmonic and stylistic directions that would be out of bounds for other instruments. Why is that?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I thought cross-picking was a type of plectrum style that involved using the open strings to facilitate position jumps (and so apreggios and long runs) smoothly, even though it might require crossing one or more strings.
As for Irish style -- increasingly people lean towards DADGAD and a capo for keys that aren't D which is a largely treble drone orientated style with chordal movements below it. There are also other styles that are more bass driven, however these often require faster hand movement (changing chords every beat at times) to facilitate the bass movements. If its just songs though, open tunings are lend themselves more easily.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Bob.... oh tell me you're not an "old timer" too!
Yes, around NYC, it seemed the accompaniment was often an outgrowth of bluegrass, old time, etc. What changed was, in Irish music, people started hitting on the beat rather than on the off beat. I know many melody players cringe when someone hits on the off beat consistently and fills in the gaps between notes and bars, that in my humble opinion are best left open because they are supposed to be there. It's not a rule, but it is my personal rule and taste. The spaces between the notes to me are sacred, it's where you wait for the next note, split second though it may be. This may be the sign of a very obsessive compulsive mind, but the little things like this can make or break the overall sound. It just sounds wrong to hear Note/Chucka/Note/Chucka/note /Chucka. Sounds better to stay with the music....it's like Chinese (Irish) Water Torture to hear that all night.
Piano is interesting, the good pianists, don't just do the bass-chord-bass-chord, they do bits of melody, I've heard some really great pianists go off in a stylistic direction too. If people like it and it suits the music, then it works.
I never strummed in my life, a flatpick, it's like a foreign object. My first exposure to guitar was classical and ragtime. I somehow had a Pat Sky (yes, the piper, who used to be an old Folkies singer/songwriter/guitarplayer in the 60s) album, a Dave Van Ronk Album and Jim Kweskin. ... how they were in my house I don't know, the parents were into other things, and I was intrigued by the picking style. With a basic chord book and a pitch pipe, I tuned to the records and slowly followed them, and dissected tunes like The St. Louis Tickle, bit by bit until getting them. i was only 11 years old, should have been out at the playground!! I was hooked though. By the fact of some "fortunate accidents" in hunting and pecking on the strings, I got enough right to be inspired to do more.
Then off to England and Scotland at 19, got entranced with Renbourne, Davey Graham, Martin Carthy, etc. and it was all over. I had a friend who played those styles, who was intrigued by the ragtime and American tunes... we swapped tunes, I never went back to it, remember a rag or two, but would rather spend time playing jigs, reels, etc. on guitar as tunes. Find the melody and flesh them out with a thumb drone or a few partial chords. I never could wrap my brain around music reading, and somehow tab is worse, not easier.
So I was always a pretty melody based fingerpicker after coming back to NYC and finding Irish/Celtic trad music here. Others were coming out of bluegrass. There were some really nice players around the city back in the 70s, like John Dillon, a really nice subtle but solid flatpicker with a great feel for the music who is still around, Caesar Pacifici and Brian Brooks from Flying Cloud, Brian was more a fingerstyle player, more drive than I had, he and Caesar could play well together, two guitars...great sound. We were all really different, no one ever mentioned Irish Style or playing wrong. If you could handle the instrument that is, there were many attempting it with the bluegrass beat who could only alternate two chords. They were even well tolerated enough of the time too though.
Oddly the one place I was accused of playing Irish Style was at a party with old time musicians a few years back. One person said I was doing it all wrong, they DO NOT PLAY IRISH STYLE HERE!! I was in dropped D, and she said I didn't even know basic chords, tried to tell her I was playing in D or G but it looked different due to the dropped D tuning...it didn't compute, I went away! There... I sure was hitting on the wrong beat!
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Iris, You put your finger on the #1 thing I am working on to improve my guitar accompaniment, making it smoother, hitting more of the beats, and getting more "tools" in my strumming "toolkit" besides the old timey American boom chucka stuff that was my bread and butter in the past.
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Al.... I know some old time fiddlers around here, a duo, they are phenomenol. They have the wild feel of the old music. They ask me over to play with them sometimes, one got real exasperated once and asked, could I please, not change my ways, but add to them and learn real old time backing too, just to make them happy. They say they like how I play in Irish music (they come to some sessions and tear the house down... the masses often don't realize it ain't Irish) and know they don't quite fit in, but we always asked them to do some on their own they are so great....still, they pine away for a decent old time backer, LOL! I tried, it's just not in me! Maybe I didn't give it a fair shot, but I'd rather do what I am doing.
I think that's the main thing that separates Irish and Bluegrass backing... where you stress the beat. That's it.
I wonder where the Doyles and the rest learned their first music,,, an interesting study. Did they play bluegrass or country, classical, what? Donal Clancy told me when he was a kid he used to buy the Stefan Grossman Guitar Workshop videos, which were mainly blues and rags. He also had the influence at home of course though. Wonder where Arty McGlynn, know Renbourne is very well trained in music, with degrees and all, a major study of music, as for what he first played on guitar, don't know. Tony McManus, he'll be around playing for us at IAANJ 3/30 with Maeve Donnelly, so I'll ask him. That's a PLUG... for you Jersey/NY people by the way. I will soon list it in events ...waiting a bit so it doesn't go to end of the list and get forgotten....he is giving a workshop too!!
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
In an ideal world we would be able to move from one style to the other (like Martin Hayes does with different fiddle styles). I am beginning to hear that in John Doyle's playing as he picks stuff up from the Carolinas, which is where I think he lives now.
But unfortunately, it ain't a perfect world, and I myself am stuck with coordination and experience that is rather far from the Platonic ideal. So I practice, and play, and practice.....
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Al.... just have fun and enjoy it!
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
If it weren't fun, I wouldn't be doing it!
I just wish I did it better, and every year, I get a little closer to what I want.
But fortunately for me, you can have fun at any skill level, and I am enjoying every step of the journey!
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
"Bob.... oh tell me you're not an 'old timer' too!"
If I tell you I played my first paying gig in 1961, does that make me an old timer?
I have what I think is the first Flying Cloud album (LP). Did they ever record any more?
# Posted on February 23rd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Right Al.... more fun than I have with anything else! Each "up" in skill level brings more inspiration too, it never has an ending.
Bob... you MAY actually be a LITTLE older than me... though I once asked a box player how old he was when he first performed and he said, four or five. So maybe I am older. I don't care about my age it's just a number anyway, but I am a granny! Started young though, LOL!
The Flying Cloud only made one album. They are old friends of mine and I am still in regular touch with two of them, Tony DeMarco and Dan Milner. Did you ever see them in NYC at the old Eagle Tavern? They were great., there every week, great times. Kathleen Collins was the first fiddler before Tony, and I think during the album recording they were in transition. If I recall properly she is on a track or two and Tony on the rest. I have to dig mine out and look.
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
Just listening to this right now
http://cdbaby.com/review/irisnevins
Very nice
# Posted on February 24th 2007 by BegF
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I didn't know Kathleen Collins had played with Flying Cloud. I think it's all Tony on the album. I talked with Brian Conway after a concert last year and he said he had played with them a few times when Tony wasn't available. I would've loved seeing them live. It's a great album.
And, btw, in June I'll be..choke, cough...sixty. Old enough to ... well, never mind.
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I think you really need to listen to all the old recordings and pick and choose what suits you best. there's no such thing as an ITM guitar style as the guitar is a relatively recent addition to the mix.
I like a lot of what Patrick Street does, and of course I'm a huge fan of Solas and Lunasa, but that's my personal taste
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by celticagent
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I think they billed it all as Tony, but i thought someone said way back she is on one or two tracks, I have to clarify that with Tony or Dan when i see one of them next. It was the band's lawyer at the time who said that, and I think he was at the recording sessions. Maybe she did some tracks and then they re did them with Tony, so he may be mistaken. Kathleen used to play regulary with them before Tony showed up in about 1976 or 77. They were a great band. With Two Great Singers, esp. when they sang duets. Brian Brooks and Dan Milner. I cut my teeth on the music listening to them, my well-spent youth!!
The Eagle was the place to be back then. On alternate weeks, they'd have a guest in, some of the greatest. I do recall Brian with them a few times. he also used to guest doing fiddle duets with Maureen Fitzpatrick. Also Willie Kelly and his brother Joe. Martin Carthy would play, all sorts of touring ,musicians would do a gig there. So much fun.
Thanks BegF.... I try!! I have cut the hell out of my thumb... not playing this week.
celticagent... true, but the hard driving rhythm has become more common so it's basically people new to the music who will say "That's not Irish Style!!". Love Patrick Street!
# Posted on February 25th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
im pretty new to all this myself. i started playing dadgad about four years ago' about the same time i became hooked on ITM and this book was recomended to me; The Irish DADGAD guitar book BY Sara Mc Quaid. I found it exelent as it comes with a demo cd with the tunes. Hope this scratches the surface for you a little.
# Posted on February 26th 2007 by big B
Re: Guitar accompaniment to Irish songs
I've heard a tape of the Flying Cloud playing around here in the late 70s. It's absolutely astonishing.
# Posted on April 3rd 2007 by winterowl