How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Seeing some of the old and recent threads about the horrors of using banjo, 5-string banjo, recorder, etc got me thinking...
In many traditions, did the "founding fathers" sit down and logically determine what instruments should be used, or sit down and design the perfect instrument for their music? In most cases, I think not.
In a lot of cases, the players were low on cash, wanted to play music, and ended up with some sort of obsolete instrument that they could get cheap or find in the trash.
Case in point- Delta Blues. What says blues more strongly than an old metal-body National guitar with a damaged rattly cone? 2nd runner up- a cheap Stella 12-string that isn't strong enough to be tuned up to pitch. Now, do you think the gods of blues met in Memphis for a conference and debated what would make the two best guitars to use? Nope- the jass band players were throwing away their Nationals, and nobody in their right minds wanted the Stellas. They were practically free, and both were loud enough to busk on a busy street corner or gig in a noisy juke joint.
So what about ITM? Let's look at the noble whistle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
When the recorder fell out of favor, pitch levels were rising rapidly. It isn't easy to bump up the pitch of a recorder, so they were of no use to anyone. The flageolet was mainly a bumbling amateur recorder- "who cares about playing in different keys, as long as I can get a scale by lifting one finger after another", so they were built for longer. After a while the "unexpressive" recorder-like sound of the flageolet didn't work in popular music either, so out in the trash they went. The poor ITM gods picked them out of the trash and found they could use them. Worked pretty well, in fact. After a while the supply of junk flageolets ran low, so Mr. Clarke invented his "Clarke London Flageolet" out of tin. MUCH cheaper than a wood flageolet- case closed. Today: there are many fabulous whistle players. You can spend a LOT on a tinwhistle made of wood! I would not be surprised if someday soon you can get a wood whistle with the right look and tone, but recorder fingering so you don't need to buy a whole box of them like the harmonica players do.
The point of this? If you get in your time machine, you can probably find a session with a bunch of lyre and crwth players grousing about the plague of stinkin harpers!
so?
Point one- judge the instrument based on hearing someone who can play said instrument, and understands the style of music. Otherwise- judge the PLAYER, not the instrument.
Point two- some instruments will never work. Shawm and highland pipe are too darn loud to play well with others. Musical saw and theremin don't suit the music at all.
Point three- if you don't like tenor banjo because it's too plunky, try a NATIONAL TENOR GUITAR! Yeeeeeeeah baby!
I would think the horrible new-age-y branch of "ITM" would make a much better subject for scorn. And I guess I have a bit of trouble honoring traditions that are younger than I am.
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I suspect that people chose instruments that they could first-make, second-afford, third-that were easily transported to dances and events where working people were and instruments were a luxurey and light enough to carry with other baggage when they moved/emigrated. ITM is the music of the people-not the upper classes.
Probably why ITM is not typically done on the pipe organ
Also why digitially synthesized, grossly over post produced Celtic-esque and faux traditional music is so troubling. The electronics generate a sound. With trad instruments, the instrument makes the sound with the musicians facilitation.
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I really get irked when radio hosts and others gush about the "living tradition" of the new-agers, implying that all the other players are mindlessly copying old recordings.
With a lot of the midi instruments, you are just triggering preset musical "events" without playing any notes. It's more like being a DJ in a dance club.
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I know my trombone isn't a "Contemporary-Traditional" instrument but is it "Post-Traditional" or "Pre-Traditional"?
And I'm sure, soon, the marimba will have its day at the forefront of ITM.
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Coupedefleur
What bothers me about your post is you ramble on in ignorance. You rattle
on about whistles, flagoeltes, and recorders as a case in point and know
very little about them. A wooden whistle with recorder fingering
(i.e. chromatic) is a RECORDER and not a whistle so this can't possibly
happen. Whistles are DIATONIC by nature. Study up a little before you ramble on..........
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Oh, just imagine the joy - if only EXPERTS were allowed to visit this board!
Well I wouldn't be here, for a start .......... in fact, how many would?
Come off it 'Mr Mike the Tavern Keeper', after all, we can't all be experts in 'all' aspects of ITM, like your good self. Isn't the whole point of this discussion board, that we are able to come here to learn from each other?
Given that coupedefleur has been a member here for only 'two days', perhaps we could cut him just a little slack & offer him some advice without the use of your acid tongue treatment!
Or, of course, we could make it a rule that you are not allowed to ask questions on a subject, unless you are a recognized authority on that subject!
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Ptarmigan
I like the Bach reference. I actually thought about saying something similar in my post, but thought I would get into trouble with Herself if she say the post!
Also Having played the PA for many of my 55 years (going on 39 though) I thought I had heard all of the accordion jokes. I like the 'why no organ in heaven' joke. First time I have ever heard it.
And I can't imaging pairing the Pipes with a pipe organ as in the Cork festival posting.
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
how do trad instruments become traditional, you ask? how does anything get traditional- by people playing them for a long time. of course there are those trivial things like affordability, availability, key( whistle can only play 2 keys and their relative minors, and, some how a miracle occurred, and they play the two keys commonly used in ITM, imagine that), and aesthetics. Also, for fast paced music, brass instruments are too lethargic, single reed instruments are too fuzzy, which probably contributes a lot. remember, I'm no expert and these are just my ideas...
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
And whoever heard of brass instruments being "lethargic"? The reason brass is generally not played in ITM is because to sustain your breath and preserve your lips over a long tune or set of tunes with lots of repeats and no gaps (as most ITM generally is), you'd have to be feckin incredible (I've tried). And anyone that good will probably be well into the jazz or classical scene.
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Thank you for the clarification. In the hermetically-sealed world of harmonicas, a blues harp, for example, is a single-reeded harmonica. With 20 reeds. One reed sounds for each hole blown or drawn, hence "single-reeded. " It isn't nice to ignore us.
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Regarding 'Cork 2005 International Pipe Organ Festival Tim Rishton, Organ & Flaithrí Neff, Uillean Pipes', it was, as someone said, "class sound". Remember that the organ is also made of natural, blown pipes (put away the noisy "horror film" image) - the two instruments complemented each other perfectly and Flaithrí and I have every intention of doing more concerts in the future.
Dr Tim Rishton (www.rishton.info)
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I'm delighted to hear that Tim. I saw a piece on RTE recently about an Organ player down Cork way, I think, who was playing Irish Trad tunes on the Organ - were you that organist, by any chance?
Pipes & Organ sounds like a great idea & I just wish I could hear it live, but Cork is a long way from here, Causeway Coast - any chance of taking that concert on tour, or are there far too few actual working organs around the country for that to be practical?
Anyway, good luck with the musical marriage. By the way, did a CD come out of the project & if not, why not?
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
No I wasn't the Cork organist, though I'd love to experiment with Irish trad. No CD project in hand at the moment, but I'll certainly think about it - and about some touring if there's the demand.
Cheers, Tim
How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Seeing some of the old and recent threads about the horrors of using banjo, 5-string banjo, recorder, etc got me thinking...
In many traditions, did the "founding fathers" sit down and logically determine what instruments should be used, or sit down and design the perfect instrument for their music? In most cases, I think not.
In a lot of cases, the players were low on cash, wanted to play music, and ended up with some sort of obsolete instrument that they could get cheap or find in the trash.
Case in point- Delta Blues. What says blues more strongly than an old metal-body National guitar with a damaged rattly cone? 2nd runner up- a cheap Stella 12-string that isn't strong enough to be tuned up to pitch. Now, do you think the gods of blues met in Memphis for a conference and debated what would make the two best guitars to use? Nope- the jass band players were throwing away their Nationals, and nobody in their right minds wanted the Stellas. They were practically free, and both were loud enough to busk on a busy street corner or gig in a noisy juke joint.
So what about ITM? Let's look at the noble whistle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
When the recorder fell out of favor, pitch levels were rising rapidly. It isn't easy to bump up the pitch of a recorder, so they were of no use to anyone. The flageolet was mainly a bumbling amateur recorder- "who cares about playing in different keys, as long as I can get a scale by lifting one finger after another", so they were built for longer. After a while the "unexpressive" recorder-like sound of the flageolet didn't work in popular music either, so out in the trash they went. The poor ITM gods picked them out of the trash and found they could use them. Worked pretty well, in fact. After a while the supply of junk flageolets ran low, so Mr. Clarke invented his "Clarke London Flageolet" out of tin. MUCH cheaper than a wood flageolet- case closed. Today: there are many fabulous whistle players. You can spend a LOT on a tinwhistle made of wood! I would not be surprised if someday soon you can get a wood whistle with the right look and tone, but recorder fingering so you don't need to buy a whole box of them like the harmonica players do.
The point of this? If you get in your time machine, you can probably find a session with a bunch of lyre and crwth players grousing about the plague of stinkin harpers!
so?
Point one- judge the instrument based on hearing someone who can play said instrument, and understands the style of music. Otherwise- judge the PLAYER, not the instrument.
Point two- some instruments will never work. Shawm and highland pipe are too darn loud to play well with others. Musical saw and theremin don't suit the music at all.
Point three- if you don't like tenor banjo because it's too plunky, try a NATIONAL TENOR GUITAR! Yeeeeeeeah baby!
I would think the horrible new-age-y branch of "ITM" would make a much better subject for scorn. And I guess I have a bit of trouble honoring traditions that are younger than I am.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by coupedefleur
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I suspect that people chose instruments that they could first-make, second-afford, third-that were easily transported to dances and events where working people were and instruments were a luxurey and light enough to carry with other baggage when they moved/emigrated. ITM is the music of the people-not the upper classes.
Probably why ITM is not typically done on the pipe organ
Also why digitially synthesized, grossly over post produced Celtic-esque and faux traditional music is so troubling. The electronics generate a sound. With trad instruments, the instrument makes the sound with the musicians facilitation.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by zippydw
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I really get irked when radio hosts and others gush about the "living tradition" of the new-agers, implying that all the other players are mindlessly copying old recordings.
With a lot of the midi instruments, you are just triggering preset musical "events" without playing any notes. It's more like being a DJ in a dance club.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by coupedefleur
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Oh for christ sake ...
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I know my trombone isn't a "Contemporary-Traditional" instrument but is it "Post-Traditional" or "Pre-Traditional"?
And I'm sure, soon, the marimba will have its day at the forefront of ITM.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I think it was Dizzy Gillespie who said this:
"If it sounds good, it IS good!"
Who CARES how it was made?!?!!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
"Probably why ITM is not typically done on the pipe organ" - Fair enough, not typical, but also not unknown!
e.g.: 'Cork 2005 International Pipe Organ Festival Tim Rishton, Organ & Flaithrí Neff, Uillean Pipes'
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Coupe: 'How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?' It involves something called - 'Natural Selection'!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Re: Pipe Organs “Did you know Bach had some 10-14 children?
They say there were no stops on his organ...”
“Did you hear about the man who went streaking through the church?
They caught him by the organ...”
“Why doesn't heaven have a pipe organ?
Because they needed the keys in hell to make accordions.”
... Oh & if llig keeps taking the lord's name in vain, he may well end up in that land of Accordions!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
ha ha,l yeah, I'd like to hear someone say that the bodhran was "intelligent design"
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Coupedefleur
What bothers me about your post is you ramble on in ignorance. You rattle
on about whistles, flagoeltes, and recorders as a case in point and know
very little about them. A wooden whistle with recorder fingering
(i.e. chromatic) is a RECORDER and not a whistle so this can't possibly
happen. Whistles are DIATONIC by nature. Study up a little before you ramble on..........
Mr. Mike
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Mr. Mike the Tavern Keeper
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Oh, just imagine the joy - if only EXPERTS were allowed to visit this board!
Well I wouldn't be here, for a start .......... in fact, how many would?
Come off it 'Mr Mike the Tavern Keeper', after all, we can't all be experts in 'all' aspects of ITM, like your good self. Isn't the whole point of this discussion board, that we are able to come here to learn from each other?
Given that coupedefleur has been a member here for only 'two days', perhaps we could cut him just a little slack & offer him some advice without the use of your acid tongue treatment!
Or, of course, we could make it a rule that you are not allowed to ask questions on a subject, unless you are a recognized authority on that subject!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Ptarmigan
I like the Bach reference. I actually thought about saying something similar in my post, but thought I would get into trouble with Herself if she say the post!
Also Having played the PA for many of my 55 years (going on 39 though) I thought I had heard all of the accordion jokes. I like the 'why no organ in heaven' joke. First time I have ever heard it.
And I can't imaging pairing the Pipes with a pipe organ as in the Cork festival posting.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by zippydw
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Have you never heard Bombarde & Organ, Zippydw? It is an absolutely magnificent sound & I'm sure Uilleann Pipes & Organ would be class sound, too!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I've done some Carolan pieces on the organ as playout music in church - they work really well!
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
how do trad instruments become traditional, you ask? how does anything get traditional- by people playing them for a long time. of course there are those trivial things like affordability, availability, key( whistle can only play 2 keys and their relative minors, and, some how a miracle occurred, and they play the two keys commonly used in ITM, imagine that), and aesthetics. Also, for fast paced music, brass instruments are too lethargic, single reed instruments are too fuzzy, which probably contributes a lot. remember, I'm no expert and these are just my ideas...
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Single reed instruments are too fuzzy for fast paced [sic] music, eh? Care to define "single reed?"
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
That'll be interesting news to all those klezmer clarinettists
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Bren
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
And Greek trad musicians as well.
# Posted on February 18th 2007 by nicholas
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Just to elucidate - a "single reed" instrument is an instrument with ONE REED, as opposed to two.
Hence the name.
# Posted on February 18th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
And whoever heard of brass instruments being "lethargic"? The reason brass is generally not played in ITM is because to sustain your breath and preserve your lips over a long tune or set of tunes with lots of repeats and no gaps (as most ITM generally is), you'd have to be feckin incredible (I've tried). And anyone that good will probably be well into the jazz or classical scene.
# Posted on February 18th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Thank you for the clarification. In the hermetically-sealed world of harmonicas, a blues harp, for example, is a single-reeded harmonica. With 20 reeds. One reed sounds for each hole blown or drawn, hence "single-reeded. " It isn't nice to ignore us.
# Posted on February 18th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Well that's obviously a bidectuple-reeded instrument, then, innit?
# Posted on February 18th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
It's single-reeded the way I play it!
# Posted on February 18th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
Regarding 'Cork 2005 International Pipe Organ Festival Tim Rishton, Organ & Flaithrí Neff, Uillean Pipes', it was, as someone said, "class sound". Remember that the organ is also made of natural, blown pipes (put away the noisy "horror film" image) - the two instruments complemented each other perfectly and Flaithrí and I have every intention of doing more concerts in the future.
Dr Tim Rishton (www.rishton.info)
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by timris
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
I'm delighted to hear that Tim. I saw a piece on RTE recently about an Organ player down Cork way, I think, who was playing Irish Trad tunes on the Organ - were you that organist, by any chance?
Pipes & Organ sounds like a great idea & I just wish I could hear it live, but Cork is a long way from here, Causeway Coast - any chance of taking that concert on tour, or are there far too few actual working organs around the country for that to be practical?
Anyway, good luck with the musical marriage. By the way, did a CD come out of the project & if not, why not?
Now I know the organ isn't exactly a 'session' instrument, but had you ever thought of trying one of these in a session?:
http://www.music.iastate.edu/antiqua/organeto.htm
# Posted on February 20th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: How did traditional instruments get to be "traditional"?
No I wasn't the Cork organist, though I'd love to experiment with Irish trad. No CD project in hand at the moment, but I'll certainly think about it - and about some touring if there's the demand.
Cheers, Tim
# Posted on February 21st 2007 by timris