After The Discussion About The Banjo In Traditional Irish Music. How Long Have Instruments To Be Played In Sessions Before They Are Accepted As Traditional, Or What Constitutes
An Irish Traditional Instrument. ??
Yes And The Irish Harp, But How Long Before The Mandolin
Bouzouki And All Other New To Irish Music Instrumnents Be
Accepted. ( Shaky Egg ) Sorry Bad Joke.
Celtic 29years? But your big wooden spoon has been a traditional instrument for sh*t stirring for longer then that .You know the one your mother gave you when you slept in the wooden box in Keogh Square.Ha Ha
I sometimes play harmonica in sessions, but was always hesitant to consider it a "traditional" instrument for Irish music. But I recently played some jigs on it in a performance at a local Catholic church hall. Father O'Neill, the grey-haired priest, came up to me afterwards and said he really enjoyed hearing the Irish tunes on the harmonica, because it reminded him of his boyhood in Ireland, when he and his brothers would play tunes together on their harmonicas. So maybe it is more traditional than I thought......
A twelve string D'oh .at least they are always in tune,not like your bucket of Varnish . Oh HUGHES i think is the place you mean D'oh or dont you have a G on your keyboard maybe you should go back to school with Mrs Roche
John John John, ive said this before, and I fully realise i'm being hypocritcal ... but a piano in a session just gives me the willies.
plonky plonky plonky plonk. aaaaaagh.
Oh I agree, I don't like the sound much, but if you listen to recordings of pub sessions in the 50s, there it is, ponking away.
I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be considered part of the tradition. Not overly keen on pipes under most circumstances, the sound puts me in mind of a toddler having a tantrum in a shopping centre.
A HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH not a G.Bet that cup from Keogh Square is on your mantle piece with the chain still attached.Sure isnt it the spoons that you started out on before you progressed to your shakey egg.Fair play to you ,you have good rhythm for an auld timer.
......... & of course Kevin Burke’s ‘Up Close’ Cd which features, not only:
Kevin Burke (fiddle), with Gerry O'Beirne (guitar, synthesizer), Matt Molloy (flute), Joe Burke (accordion), Paul Kotapish (cittern, mandolin)
But also:
Phil Murphy (harmonica),
Pip Murphy (harmonica),
John Murphy (harmonica),
Mark Graham (harmonica), Paul Kotapish (cittern, mandolin).
I'd say they are probably two Murphy brothers, Dphil. One used to work up here, on a Lighthouse off Larne, & when he was on shore, he would come & play at the monthly meetings of the Derry & Antrim Fiddlers, which were back then, held in the 'Skerry Inn, in Newtowncrommelin, high in the hills above Ballymena ... Hey!
There really is no such thing as a traditional Irish instrument. Flute did not become a staple until the 20th Century, so what does that tell you? Even whistle only dates back to 1847, hardly a long tradition in the scheme of things. Instruments came to be used as they became available. The time frame has little or nothing to do with it. You may think that some instruments lend themselves to trad better than others, but using the argument that such-and-such is not traditional just doesn't hold up.
How long has any instrument been in ITM ?
Please explain this thing about the 1847 whistle, Ailin. I am intrigued.
Certainly I knew that the pipes as we know them are pretty new, 19th C ?, but I'm sure someone else will give chapter and verse on that.
The wooden flute became accessible ( please note that word ) when the orchestral players switched to the modern Boehm system, leaving obsolete wooden ones going cheap. 19th C again.
Anglo concertinas were the cheapest of all concertina models, hence the ones of choice amongst working class musicians. Once again, middle 19th C. ( although I met a Scotsman who insisted all concertinas were 20th century. )
Melodians similar.
Fiddle has been with us for ever - hasn't it ? Somebody tell us.
The harp was really an instrument of the refined classes, musicians travelling round from big house to big house to entertain the gentry; don't suppose they played much traditional music on them.
Tenor banjo - see earlier discussions but I blame Barney McKenna. Anyway, 20th C.
The bodrhan - reputedly Sean O Riada is to blame for this, although he never claimed it was traditional. Discuss.
Bouzouki; Johnney Moynihan et al......late '60s' onwards.
Just to add to any discussion; the Greek bouzouki itself is arguably only about a hundred years old; apparently the first ones were made when Christian immigrants expelled from Turkey at the turn of the century and living in the areas around Pireaus ( sp? ) combined the neck of a satz-ut with the more resonant bowl-back body of an Italian mandola. Not so many people know that.
Ultimately, the question has to be asked; what the Flying Fernackerpan was the music played on more than 150 years ago ?
Pipes and fiddles, I suspect, have a bit more to them than 150 years but I don't have specifics. Certainly bagpipes of *some* variety have been around for eons. Probably some type of whistle too.
Funny that what we think of as "trad" music is fairly new to the harp, the most traditional instrument of them all.
We might as well ask "What are traditional threads on thesession.org?"
What is a traditional instrument?
Which instrument is best?
Which instrument is worst?
It seems we discuss this at least once a month, and inevitably someone gets riled up enough to make it a long thread.
The fiddle (a bowed stringed musical instrument) came into Europe in the Middle Ages. I know it entered Scotland in the 14th century. It probably entered Ireland about the same time.
The moderrn violin was developed around the early 16th century entering the Britiain as early as mid-16th century to mid 18h century (sorry I can't be more percise I have 2 books the contradict each other). The violin quickly rerplaced the Medieval fiddle throughout the Britian & I suppose Ireland.
So as far as the fiddle (a bowed stringed musical instument) it could be as much a 1000 years. As the violin (still technically a fiddle as it is a bowed stringed musical insturment) 500- 300 years.
I give 1847 as the date for whistle because that is when the Clarke whistle came out. I don't believe there was a predecessor. The 8-key flute did indeed become "accessible" when it was abondoned in favor of the Boehm flute by orchestral players. However, I am led to understand that it did not become a fixture in ITM until the 1920's.
Ailin, I think you are exaggerating the lateness of the flute's popularity. After all, as just one clear example, the good Cap'n Francis himself was a fluter, and I think we have good reason to believe that he learnt to play first in Ireland, which he left in the 1860s, settling on the left of the Atlantic in the 1870s.
As to the whistle, I suspect it had many incarnations before Clarke, but that's another story I don't know much about.
I play hundreds of Irish tunes on the harmonica and I've made a CD and I play in sessions and I play it in concerts and I've played in Hughes and Cobblestone and I have a website all about it and I don't give a stuff about anyone who doesn't think it's a "traditional instrument." There really is no such thing, and there is certainly no hierarchy. So there. I've never got my harp out in a place where Irish music was being played and not been made to feel more than welcome, not once. The proof of the pudding and all that, sod yer histories and yer theories, just do it with no big egos or evangelical ideas about your instrument. I'll tell you what. You can stuff a D harp and a G harp in your pocket right next to your snot rag, whip one of 'em out and play Irish tunes at the drop of a hat anywhere, any time. I've even done it in Marks and bloody Spencers before now. No tuning up, no piggin' around, no standing on ceremony. Now THAT'S what I call "traditional!" Bursting out laughing emoticon.
There's that very entertaining tv programme on updating the Oxford Dictionary, where they try to find the earliest PRINTED reference to any word or expression.
Well, in the same way, can anyone find a photgraph or printed reference, before, say, 1945, to the bodrhan ?
Come on, BB.
Come on, Ptarmy, your search engines are usually pretty good.
And I'll eat my shillaley ( ?sp? ).
Maybe I'm misinterpreting Pete's challenge? He said, "Well, in the same way, can anyone find a photgraph or printed reference, before, say, 1945, to the bodrhan ?" Notice he says "bodhran" and not whatever name is used for the Persian drum?
Just for clarification... I played the Persian version of the frame drum for many years before discovering ITM and taking up the bodhran. I can guarantee you that even though they are both frame drums, the differences in the way they’re played render them as entirely different instruments.
Are you trying to tell me O'Riada, in despair at banjos, decided to INVENT an instrument and came up with the bodhran? Please.
I believe Tao Cat has it right. When Brian Boru was rallying the troops I doubt if he said "Right lads, get the bodhrans out". More likely along the lines of "Bate that drum there, Jimmy".
And what of the tradition of trhe hunt, led by the bodhran beater?
There is strong evidence that the playing style we associate with the bodhran didn't come into existence until the 60s. It wasn't associated with ITM, but the fact that the drum utilized to develop that technique and style already had a place in Irish culture gives it adequate credential to take its place among what we consider to be traditional instruments. The style and technique that distinguishes the bodhran from other frame drums has been passed along for some time now. (That includes the almost identical frame drums used in Ireland before the birth of the bodhran.) Today you would have to travel back deep into the bog to find someone who loves ITM but has no knowledge of the bodhran.
Ailin,
saying that the whistle dates to 1847 because Clarke started manfacturing them then is akin to saying that the mobile phone was or will be invented when Apple bring out the iPhone!
According to Fintan Vallely's book, 'Timber', he pictures a bone whistle dating to 10,000 BC!!! He also pictures of ancient reindeer bone flutes.
The harmonica -- at least the diatonic variety called organ beil -- is considered "traditional" enough by Comhaltas, which gives it its own competition category along with other trad instruments in the All-Ireland Fleadh Cheoil. But probably the most celebrated Irish harmonicist, the late Eddie Clarke, played the chromatic harmonica, an instrument not invented until the 1930s. I don't believe the chromatic is allowed to compete at the Fleadh in the Organ Beil category, and those players must enter the Miscellaneous category. Jackie Daly told me that his father was an excellent harmonica player.
Alec, let me get this right - are you saying that it is only Comhaltas now, who decide whether, or not, we should all regard an instrument as Traditional!
Silly me! ......... and here's me thinking that it was just ordinary folk who have, over the years, just naturally adopted & accepted the use of certain instruments, but only as they fitted, or did not fit, into the scheme of the music.
So some, like the Bouzouki, have been accepted, while others, like the Shakey Egg are still struggling to gain acceptance - or is there now a competition for ye olde shakey?
Let's not forget how long it took the 'almighty' CCE to accept Polkas, Slides, Highlands & Mazurkas! ........ I believe, long, long after we, the rest of the ITM World, .... I believe!
Again, let me clarify about what I posted about the whistle. I refer specifically to the tin whistle, which had its genesis with Clarke. Its popularity definitely began with Clarke - it's not as if he were but one of many makers; he invented the tin whistle. Regarding flute, I do not claim to know anything more than what I've read on the subject. If I am wrong, your quarrel is with many who claim to be expert, or to have at least thoroughly researched the subject. If we can agree that the flute came into its own for ITM after the Boehm flute, we know it had to happen after about 1850. Given that the Boehm flute did not find immediate favor, and that virtuosos of the period were not inclined to totally relearn their instrument, I'm guessing it took some time before people were getting rid of their 8-key flutes. Add a bit more time for these discarded flutes to find their way to Irish musicians, and you are talking about a fair passage of time. Rememember, things didn't change as rapidly as they do today. Your reference to Francis O'Neil falls right in line with my time estimate. Remember, I'm not saying that no one started flute until the 1920s - only that it took until then to find them in common use.
Steve Shaw, you must be brave and good and fair play to you if you can play tunes on a blues hard, if that is what you mean. I thought they didn't have the notes, shows you how much I know, although I am incredibly lazy according to some on this board.
I played a couple of tunes on a blues harp for Ptarmigan recently, but it wasn't very good, as I did not believe it possible. I kept waiting to run out of notes. I play by ear so I don't know what the notes are, but you naturally know when to suck or blow.
You can play tons of tunes on blues harps. You just need the help of the ITM harp-player's best friend, Mr Paddy Richter. He will tell you that the key to happiness is to tune up the 3-blow reed on your blues harp by a whole tone. This one fell swoop gives you the missing note back in the bottom octave. A G Lee Oskar in that tuning will last you years. And, for your D harps, buy Special 20 low Ds, not the standard low Ds which will put you an octave above those fiddle players whom of course we would not wish to annoy. You can Paddy your low Ds too but it isn't quite so urgent as it is for the G harps.
I don't drink but buy a dozen bottles of that stuff everytime it is reduced. It is usually £5.99, the kids love it.
And the blues harp bit is amazing. I knew you could adjust the tuning, a bit "footery" to work at, and yes it is the third blow reed that is the problem.
I'd look stupid with one of those harmonica holders and a bodhran.
I liked the top picture that Ptarmy posted - bouzouki and bodrhan it looks like.
But the North African drums I have seen surely are double -sided, and therefore the style we are accustomed to hearing the bodrhan played in would not be possible ? Of course most of these old illustrations make no attempt to show both sides of an instrument, so you can't tell what you are looking at precisely.
There's another piece of evidence against early bodrhans - you never hear one on the old '78s'. Someone driving the piano, yes. A solo instrument, often. Bodrhan acoompaniment, never.
Well, there you go. At least my english concertina has a much longer pedigree.
Maybe I should rename myself Bouzouki Pete ?
What Are Traditional Instruments
What Are Traditional Instruments
After The Discussion About The Banjo In Traditional Irish Music. How Long Have Instruments To Be Played In Sessions Before They Are Accepted As Traditional, Or What Constitutes
An Irish Traditional Instrument. ??
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by celtic strings
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Bodhrans, all the others are "Johnny come lately" instruments.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Not again?
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Yes And The Irish Harp, But How Long Before The Mandolin
Bouzouki And All Other New To Irish Music Instrumnents Be
Accepted. ( Shaky Egg ) Sorry Bad Joke.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by celtic strings
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Yeah, and why didn't those keyboard/guitars from the eighties take off. They were brilliant
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by session savage
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Pianos and snare drums might be considered traditional in Ceili Bands.
Pianos are played in sessions, especially in London pubs...
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Martin Milner
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Celtic 29years? But your big wooden spoon has been a traditional instrument for sh*t stirring for longer then that .You know the one your mother gave you when you slept in the wooden box in Keogh Square.Ha Ha
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Dphil
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
You'll be telling me my trombone isn't a traditional Irish instrument next...
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Yes John Bull My Father Told Me About The Snare Drum In Ceili Bands And The Banjo Mandolin I D'not Think It Would Go Down Well In Huges .
As For You Dphil When Are You Going To Put The Other 4 Strings On Your Mandola.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by celtic strings
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
I sometimes play harmonica in sessions, but was always hesitant to consider it a "traditional" instrument for Irish music. But I recently played some jigs on it in a performance at a local Catholic church hall. Father O'Neill, the grey-haired priest, came up to me afterwards and said he really enjoyed hearing the Irish tunes on the harmonica, because it reminded him of his boyhood in Ireland, when he and his brothers would play tunes together on their harmonicas. So maybe it is more traditional than I thought......
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
A twelve string D'oh .at least they are always in tune,not like your bucket of Varnish . Oh HUGHES i think is the place you mean D'oh or dont you have a G on your keyboard maybe you should go back to school with Mrs Roche
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Dphil
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
John John John, ive said this before, and I fully realise i'm being hypocritcal ... but a piano in a session just gives me the willies.
plonky plonky plonky plonk. aaaaaagh.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by session savage
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Oh I agree, I don't like the sound much, but if you listen to recordings of pub sessions in the 50s, there it is, ponking away.
I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be considered part of the tradition. Not overly keen on pipes under most circumstances, the sound puts me in mind of a toddler having a tantrum in a shopping centre.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Martin Milner
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
A HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH not a G.Bet that cup from Keogh Square is on your mantle piece with the chain still attached.Sure isnt it the spoons that you started out on before you progressed to your shakey egg.Fair play to you ,you have good rhythm for an auld timer.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Dphil
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Al, & anyone else who is not sure about the Harmonica's place in ITM - check out the following:
IRISH HARMONICA DISCOGRAPHY
http://www.irishmusicreview.com/harmonicadiscography.htm
'The Harmonica in Irish music' - an interview with Mick Kinsella:
http://www.folkworld.de/9/e/mouthie.html
‘The Trip To Cullenstown’ by Phil, John And Pip Murphy
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2073
......... & of course Kevin Burke’s ‘Up Close’ Cd which features, not only:
Kevin Burke (fiddle), with Gerry O'Beirne (guitar, synthesizer), Matt Molloy (flute), Joe Burke (accordion), Paul Kotapish (cittern, mandolin)
But also:
Phil Murphy (harmonica),
Pip Murphy (harmonica),
John Murphy (harmonica),
Mark Graham (harmonica), Paul Kotapish (cittern, mandolin).
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/103
Oh & please watch this – tasty, or what?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gudTroU9QkY
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
P TAR .Who are the 2 guys playing on youtube they are brilliant
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Dphil
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
I'd say they are probably two Murphy brothers, Dphil. One used to work up here, on a Lighthouse off Larne, & when he was on shore, he would come & play at the monthly meetings of the Derry & Antrim Fiddlers, which were back then, held in the 'Skerry Inn, in Newtowncrommelin, high in the hills above Ballymena ... Hey!
.... & howsabout this ‘six-sided’ Harmonica:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1_boL4YNSE
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
There really is no such thing as a traditional Irish instrument. Flute did not become a staple until the 20th Century, so what does that tell you? Even whistle only dates back to 1847, hardly a long tradition in the scheme of things. Instruments came to be used as they became available. The time frame has little or nothing to do with it. You may think that some instruments lend themselves to trad better than others, but using the argument that such-and-such is not traditional just doesn't hold up.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Ailin
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Dphil
What Do You Think Of Our Old Friend That Playes The Harmonica I Forgot About Him.
And You Are Right I Saw A Shaky Egg Before I Ever Had A Boiled Egg. Times Were Hard
Closing Down Now See You All Tomorrow ,Sleep Well
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by celtic strings
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Why Do You Use A Capital Letter For Each Word ?
Wake Up And Tell Us.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
he is practicing for his ECDL apart from that he is a mad olb f-cker.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Dphil
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
How long has any instrument been in ITM ?
Please explain this thing about the 1847 whistle, Ailin. I am intrigued.
Certainly I knew that the pipes as we know them are pretty new, 19th C ?, but I'm sure someone else will give chapter and verse on that.
The wooden flute became accessible ( please note that word ) when the orchestral players switched to the modern Boehm system, leaving obsolete wooden ones going cheap. 19th C again.
Anglo concertinas were the cheapest of all concertina models, hence the ones of choice amongst working class musicians. Once again, middle 19th C. ( although I met a Scotsman who insisted all concertinas were 20th century. )
Melodians similar.
Fiddle has been with us for ever - hasn't it ? Somebody tell us.
The harp was really an instrument of the refined classes, musicians travelling round from big house to big house to entertain the gentry; don't suppose they played much traditional music on them.
Tenor banjo - see earlier discussions but I blame Barney McKenna. Anyway, 20th C.
The bodrhan - reputedly Sean O Riada is to blame for this, although he never claimed it was traditional. Discuss.
Bouzouki; Johnney Moynihan et al......late '60s' onwards.
Just to add to any discussion; the Greek bouzouki itself is arguably only about a hundred years old; apparently the first ones were made when Christian immigrants expelled from Turkey at the turn of the century and living in the areas around Pireaus ( sp? ) combined the neck of a satz-ut with the more resonant bowl-back body of an Italian mandola. Not so many people know that.
Ultimately, the question has to be asked; what the Flying Fernackerpan was the music played on more than 150 years ago ?
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Pipes and fiddles, I suspect, have a bit more to them than 150 years but I don't have specifics. Certainly bagpipes of *some* variety have been around for eons. Probably some type of whistle too.
Funny that what we think of as "trad" music is fairly new to the harp, the most traditional instrument of them all.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by wormdiet
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
We might as well ask "What are traditional threads on thesession.org?"
What is a traditional instrument?
Which instrument is best?
Which instrument is worst?
It seems we discuss this at least once a month, and inevitably someone gets riled up enough to make it a long thread.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
The fiddle (a bowed stringed musical instrument) came into Europe in the Middle Ages. I know it entered Scotland in the 14th century. It probably entered Ireland about the same time.
The moderrn violin was developed around the early 16th century entering the Britiain as early as mid-16th century to mid 18h century (sorry I can't be more percise I have 2 books the contradict each other). The violin quickly rerplaced the Medieval fiddle throughout the Britian & I suppose Ireland.
So as far as the fiddle (a bowed stringed musical instument) it could be as much a 1000 years. As the violin (still technically a fiddle as it is a bowed stringed musical insturment) 500- 300 years.
Is that traditional enough?
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Liked that mouth organ clip. Years ago I could play tunes on a cheap "hero" harmonica, probably still could if I could remember the tune in my head.
It just never struck me that it suited, and it looked daft.
Now the bodhran, dating back to at least the Garden of Eden, there is tradition, mystique, and that certain "Je ne sais quoi" about it.
# Posted on February 15th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
I give 1847 as the date for whistle because that is when the Clarke whistle came out. I don't believe there was a predecessor. The 8-key flute did indeed become "accessible" when it was abondoned in favor of the Boehm flute by orchestral players. However, I am led to understand that it did not become a fixture in ITM until the 1920's.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ailin
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Ailin, I think you are exaggerating the lateness of the flute's popularity. After all, as just one clear example, the good Cap'n Francis himself was a fluter, and I think we have good reason to believe that he learnt to play first in Ireland, which he left in the 1860s, settling on the left of the Atlantic in the 1870s.
As to the whistle, I suspect it had many incarnations before Clarke, but that's another story I don't know much about.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
I play hundreds of Irish tunes on the harmonica and I've made a CD and I play in sessions and I play it in concerts and I've played in Hughes and Cobblestone and I have a website all about it and I don't give a stuff about anyone who doesn't think it's a "traditional instrument." There really is no such thing, and there is certainly no hierarchy. So there. I've never got my harp out in a place where Irish music was being played and not been made to feel more than welcome, not once. The proof of the pudding and all that, sod yer histories and yer theories, just do it with no big egos or evangelical ideas about your instrument. I'll tell you what. You can stuff a D harp and a G harp in your pocket right next to your snot rag, whip one of 'em out and play Irish tunes at the drop of a hat anywhere, any time. I've even done it in Marks and bloody Spencers before now. No tuning up, no piggin' around, no standing on ceremony. Now THAT'S what I call "traditional!" Bursting out laughing emoticon.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
There's that very entertaining tv programme on updating the Oxford Dictionary, where they try to find the earliest PRINTED reference to any word or expression.
Well, in the same way, can anyone find a photgraph or printed reference, before, say, 1945, to the bodrhan ?
Come on, BB.
Come on, Ptarmy, your search engines are usually pretty good.
And I'll eat my shillaley ( ?sp? ).
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Pete, here's an early picture from 13th century Persia, where the Bodhran came from, long before it ever reached Ireland!
Check out the third picture down:
http://www.khafif.com/rhy/his.html
Do you want any salt?
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Save your condiments, Ptarm, it says nothing about bodhrans.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Well Duh! - of course the Persians didn't call them 'Bodhrans' in the C13th - PB! It sure as hell ain't no Hula Hoop!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Maybe I'm misinterpreting Pete's challenge? He said, "Well, in the same way, can anyone find a photgraph or printed reference, before, say, 1945, to the bodrhan ?" Notice he says "bodhran" and not whatever name is used for the Persian drum?
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Just for clarification... I played the Persian version of the frame drum for many years before discovering ITM and taking up the bodhran. I can guarantee you that even though they are both frame drums, the differences in the way they’re played render them as entirely different instruments.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
A drum is a drum, for crimeny's sake
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by TaoCat
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Are you trying to tell me O'Riada, in despair at banjos, decided to INVENT an instrument and came up with the bodhran? Please.
I believe Tao Cat has it right. When Brian Boru was rallying the troops I doubt if he said "Right lads, get the bodhrans out". More likely along the lines of "Bate that drum there, Jimmy".
And what of the tradition of trhe hunt, led by the bodhran beater?
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
anything is a drum. Haven't you ever been a child?
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Bren
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Nicely said, Steve. Another blow struck for the Harmonica Liberation Front.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by robharper
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
There is strong evidence that the playing style we associate with the bodhran didn't come into existence until the 60s. It wasn't associated with ITM, but the fact that the drum utilized to develop that technique and style already had a place in Irish culture gives it adequate credential to take its place among what we consider to be traditional instruments. The style and technique that distinguishes the bodhran from other frame drums has been passed along for some time now. (That includes the almost identical frame drums used in Ireland before the birth of the bodhran.) Today you would have to travel back deep into the bog to find someone who loves ITM but has no knowledge of the bodhran.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
As for the harmonica -- it sucks!
... and blows.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Ailin,
saying that the whistle dates to 1847 because Clarke started manfacturing them then is akin to saying that the mobile phone was or will be invented when Apple bring out the iPhone!
According to Fintan Vallely's book, 'Timber', he pictures a bone whistle dating to 10,000 BC!!! He also pictures of ancient reindeer bone flutes.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
The harmonica -- at least the diatonic variety called organ beil -- is considered "traditional" enough by Comhaltas, which gives it its own competition category along with other trad instruments in the All-Ireland Fleadh Cheoil. But probably the most celebrated Irish harmonicist, the late Eddie Clarke, played the chromatic harmonica, an instrument not invented until the 1930s. I don't believe the chromatic is allowed to compete at the Fleadh in the Organ Beil category, and those players must enter the Miscellaneous category. Jackie Daly told me that his father was an excellent harmonica player.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by alec b
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Alec, let me get this right - are you saying that it is only Comhaltas now, who decide whether, or not, we should all regard an instrument as Traditional!
Silly me! ......... and here's me thinking that it was just ordinary folk who have, over the years, just naturally adopted & accepted the use of certain instruments, but only as they fitted, or did not fit, into the scheme of the music.
So some, like the Bouzouki, have been accepted, while others, like the Shakey Egg are still struggling to gain acceptance - or is there now a competition for ye olde shakey?
Let's not forget how long it took the 'almighty' CCE to accept Polkas, Slides, Highlands & Mazurkas! ........ I believe, long, long after we, the rest of the ITM World, .... I believe!
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Again, let me clarify about what I posted about the whistle. I refer specifically to the tin whistle, which had its genesis with Clarke. Its popularity definitely began with Clarke - it's not as if he were but one of many makers; he invented the tin whistle. Regarding flute, I do not claim to know anything more than what I've read on the subject. If I am wrong, your quarrel is with many who claim to be expert, or to have at least thoroughly researched the subject. If we can agree that the flute came into its own for ITM after the Boehm flute, we know it had to happen after about 1850. Given that the Boehm flute did not find immediate favor, and that virtuosos of the period were not inclined to totally relearn their instrument, I'm guessing it took some time before people were getting rid of their 8-key flutes. Add a bit more time for these discarded flutes to find their way to Irish musicians, and you are talking about a fair passage of time. Rememember, things didn't change as rapidly as they do today. Your reference to Francis O'Neil falls right in line with my time estimate. Remember, I'm not saying that no one started flute until the 1920s - only that it took until then to find them in common use.
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by Ailin
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
Steve Shaw, you must be brave and good and fair play to you if you can play tunes on a blues hard, if that is what you mean. I thought they didn't have the notes, shows you how much I know, although I am incredibly lazy according to some on this board.
I played a couple of tunes on a blues harp for Ptarmigan recently, but it wasn't very good, as I did not believe it possible. I kept waiting to run out of notes. I play by ear so I don't know what the notes are, but you naturally know when to suck or blow.
Keep up the good work Steve
# Posted on February 16th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
You can play tons of tunes on blues harps. You just need the help of the ITM harp-player's best friend, Mr Paddy Richter. He will tell you that the key to happiness is to tune up the 3-blow reed on your blues harp by a whole tone. This one fell swoop gives you the missing note back in the bottom octave. A G Lee Oskar in that tuning will last you years. And, for your D harps, buy Special 20 low Ds, not the standard low Ds which will put you an octave above those fiddle players whom of course we would not wish to annoy. You can Paddy your low Ds too but it isn't quite so urgent as it is for the G harps.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
My sentence should have read "And, for your D harps, buy Special 20 low Ds, not the standard Ds which will put you...
Apologies. Good stuff, this Isla Negra cabernet sauvignon, and only £2.99 at Tesco's..
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
I don't drink but buy a dozen bottles of that stuff everytime it is reduced. It is usually £5.99, the kids love it.
And the blues harp bit is amazing. I knew you could adjust the tuning, a bit "footery" to work at, and yes it is the third blow reed that is the problem.
I'd look stupid with one of those harmonica holders and a bodhran.
Thanks Steve.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Are Traditional Instruments
I liked the top picture that Ptarmy posted - bouzouki and bodrhan it looks like.
But the North African drums I have seen surely are double -sided, and therefore the style we are accustomed to hearing the bodrhan played in would not be possible ? Of course most of these old illustrations make no attempt to show both sides of an instrument, so you can't tell what you are looking at precisely.
There's another piece of evidence against early bodrhans - you never hear one on the old '78s'. Someone driving the piano, yes. A solo instrument, often. Bodrhan acoompaniment, never.
Well, there you go. At least my english concertina has a much longer pedigree.
Maybe I should rename myself Bouzouki Pete ?
# Posted on February 18th 2007 by Guernsey Pete