I've been playing for about 2 1/2 years now. I'm over 40 years of age, totally self taught and semingly eternally damned to mediocrity.
How long did it take you to get good enough to feel comfortable (and be accepted) in the local seisun??
I've been invited to play in the only local seisun I can find but....they've never heard me play! I don't want to show up and then get summarily "Un" invited!
Only you will know when you are ready. If you can keep up and (since you play fiddle) not pose a problem due to an inability to play notes accurately (which has nothing to do with your acumen as an Irish player, per se), go ahead and dive in. You should have an awareness of how much attention you are drawing to yourself, so adjust accordingly. If the attendees are a good bunch, and you show that you are improving from one session to the next, you will be welcomed and encouraged. If, on the other hand, you play the same tunes and never appear to be working on your technique, the other players will gradually lose patience. Do your best and learn. Session playing can be a good way to do that. If anyone has a problem with that, it's not a reflection on you.
How big is the session you're thinking of attending? Mine has about 30 players on average, with close to half of them fiddles. My teacher runs the session, and (as I posted in the linked comment) when he first invited me, promised me that if I messed up, I shouldn't worry - "no one can hear you!" I've been playing at my session for...almost five months, and I can tell you that my teacher wasn't lying. At times I messed up, and surveyed my surroundings to see if everyone in the pub was staring at me. They weren't. To the contrary: I've been asked, apparently in all seriousness, by some of the other musicians if I'd been playing since I was a kid, if I was classically trained, and so on - and it's certainly not because I'm a prodigy; I definitely don't sound like I've been playing for years and years. It's because the other musicians actually can't hear me.
If your local sessioneers are inviting you to join them without having heard you play, they're either a very friendly bunch or a very naive bunch who think that everyone who's ever touched a fiddle is an expert. The former is a lot more likely. Ailin gives some good advice; pay attention to the people next to you and react to them. More likely than not they'll be encouraging - especially since they invited you in the first place! I'll occasionally join in on a tune that I soon discover I can't play well enough at speed, so I'll bow out after a few bars. On busier nights I'll play more boldly. No one's ever asked me to leave; one fellow on tenor guitar actually said, and I quote, "As long as you're not so bad that you end up killing someone - you should play." If you're not comfortable doing that, practice your best tunes like mad and then play only those ones your first time.
As for being eternally damned to mediocrity...well, I've never heard you play either, but it;s been my experience that one way to improve more quickly (and probably THE best way for someone without a teacher!) is to play with others.
I was playing in local sessions after about 2 years. They were friendly and encouraging. It didn't hurt that I was married to someone with way more experience.
But here's the thing... IMHO, you'll NEVER be "good enough" UNTIL you actually get out and play in sessions. That's the thing that will pull your level up. Practicing and playing by yourself are really good tools. But even if you get to a certain comfort level there, you will be uncomfortable when it comes to playing with other people. The only way to get over that is to do it. The more you do it, the better you'll become.
My advice: Get out to the session you were invited to, try to be aware of what's going on around you, so that you don't annoy anyone, and have fun!
That is an excellent post by Ailin. I'm a late starter too but about ten years on from you by the sound of it. You have a ton of enthusiasm now that you could channel into doing a lot of practice at home. Home in on about a dozen tunes that go down well in the session you go to and really work on 'em, plus one or two of your own party pieces, why not? When you're at the session you need to be really SENSITIVE to how t'others react to you. As long as you don't go overboard and start thinking you're the dog's danglies just because you can play three reels you'll be accepted and welcomed. Another good idea is to get a minidisc recorder or something similar and record yourself, then do the hair-shirt thing and listen critically to yourself (or, even worse, get a musical friend to listen).
You can always just drink the beer and sit out a session. Just do enough to let everyone know you have an instrument but don't force anything. I even did this at The Cobblestone in Dublin, and it wasn't long before I was joining in despite my blatantly-feigned reluctance! And that's with a harmonica!
A good observation for one only 2 years on the Bow and Fiddle!
Realizing there may be a problem with how one Bows a Fiddle is the very start of a long journey on the road to excellence and self realization.
Now is always a good time to begin such a journey, so Bon Voyage.
Oh and in case I should ever ever think I did not say what seems obvious to those of us who can well Bow a Fiddle, please do not be ashamed of Suzuki Book One or watching your Bowing in a mirror, or practicing for hours just with a metronome playing chords and scales... and so on. I bet you a bag of money there ISNT a good player today who has not already done all of these things ... as well as others, in order to become as good as they are.
How long? As has already been mentioned you’ve got to get out and do it. Be determined to progress and just turn up! Keep it down but get in there behind those who can. You’ll develop a feel for when you’re over stating your pass. Don’t worry too much about fluffing it, worry about getting it back together, skilful recovery is nine tenths the law.
Keep time & don’t upset anyone else’s, but most important, get the foamers in(GTFI)!
ATB
It's not like we ever get good enough that we can't get better, Jack. But the question is when we get good enough to get out and play in sessions. So answer wisely unless you want a barrage of beginners that come and noodle in the session that YOU are good enough to lead
In all seriousness, it's also important to note that sessions vary widely. You may be "good enough" to play in certain sessions, but it's also helpful to be "smart enough" to know when to put down your instrument and listen - or never even take it out of the case in some situations.
I'm not totally sure of how Jack *feels* from reading his post above. But I would have echoed his sentiments. I think the best musicians have a perennial unease about their own playing.
I *hope* I'm a reasonable musician. But I will never ever be 'good enough' in my view. And I include in that statement that I won't really be good enough to play in sessions. Doesn't mean I wouldn't play anywhere, though. I think beginners should play in sessions right from the start ... but judiciously, sparingly and sensitive to others in the session ... and only when, and whenever, they know the tune. This, by the way, is what I think most people do whenever they go to a session which is new to them.
Thanks, Ben. Yep... my statement was relating to my own abilities. I was being light hearted, but I often feel like I'm not good enough for anyone to bother listening to. I also have such a lack of confidence that I sometimes feel like staying home except for the fact that I enjoy the social aspects of a session too much and force myself out the door. I'm looking forward to the day when I might have little or no trepidation about unpacking the instruments and lashing into a tune with reckless abandon.
Don't get me wrong... I think humility is very important. Nobody likes someone who is full of themselves. But humility can be taken too far. If we were all so humble about our playing that we NEVER got out and played, it would defeat the purpose.
So to address the topic directly... when we discover ITM and sessions etc., we want to get involved because it looks so fun. If we were children when we discovered the music, as is usually the case if you live in Ireland, you have a lifetime to learn, and by the time you're old enough to go into a pub and sit with your peers and elders who also play -- you have learned quite well. As an adult you might be less patient and you'll want to get involved as quickly as possible. The concept of waiting many years while you learn the tunes and how to play an instrument seems too daunting. But the fact that it takes years to learn doesn't change.
Some instruments provide a perceived easy access. Even though it's true to a certain point, it still takes time. If you already play guitar quite well you might find yourself backing tunes fairly quickly, but it still takes time to familiarize yourself with the tunes. Many people think there's nothing hard about hitting a drum with a stick, but this misconception has led to the bad reputation of the instrument. The fact remains that it takes time and practice.
Does this mean that as a beginner you shouldn't go to sessions? No... it means you might not expect to play. Then the question is: how long do I wait before I play? I think you'll know in your heart of hearts when the time is right. It doesn't mean you should sit at the center of the action and expect to be involved in every tune; you can still listen when you don't know the tune or the playing is above your ability -- even with your instrument out of its case.
At our sessions we have learners showing up all the time. If they aren't bothered about not being catered to, and they aren't noodling audibly on tunes they don't know -- we enjoy their company. One of the best things about being at a session is the friends you make and the fun you have celebrating the music. Just be patient about the extent of your involvement in the music. Every day that you spend practicing and learning the tunes is another penny in the bank. Eventually you'll have enough saved up to participate fully in the session. When that day arrives it will seem to you like it really didn't take that long after all.
Using the somewhat cliché analogy of the music being like a conversation, adults will often engage children in conversation. They will encourage the children to communicate, and they often enjoy the conversations.
But if you were stuck in a fallout shelter for 3 months with nobody but a 4 year old, you'd really be wishing for an adult conversation by the time the radiation dissipated (and God forbid if you were the only adult left alive!)
At a dinner party, it's good for the children to know when it's appropriate for them to speak up, and when they should sit quietly in the corner, lest they get a swat on the butt, or sent to their room without dessert.
What the rev said about humility a few posts up is very appropriate. I know a good few people who are so awful it defies description, at least without resorting to the kind of anglo-saxon that would get me banned. Yet there they go, "playing," for want of a better word, ever louder and prouder. Big ego, no shame whatsoever. Lost causes the lot of 'em. But there are others who sit in the corner with their instruments kept well out of sight who must go home night after night frustrated at themselves for not having the balls to put themselves forward just a little bit. I've known one or two like that who, once they "come out," or are dragged out (it's often their spouse who tips the wink to the others!), are really worthwhile participants from the word go. Maybe not technically brilliant to begin with, but who play from the heart, which is what it's all about. You can always start with Fanny Power, and who's to gainsay that! Smile emoticon.
Damned to mediocrity! Hells teeth! mediocrity is what I aspire to. Just think of all the people who would be happy just to be able to play one tune, and remember if a thing is worth doing it is worth doing badly, only try not to do it so badly that the others get sick and leave.
I play music with people who are a lot younger and cleverer than I am. It is not their fault that they can get twice the result with half the effort. It is not my fault that I am a slow learner, all that matters is we all try, and enjoy it.
How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
I've been playing for about 2 1/2 years now. I'm over 40 years of age, totally self taught and semingly eternally damned to mediocrity.
How long did it take you to get good enough to feel comfortable (and be accepted) in the local seisun??
I've been invited to play in the only local seisun I can find but....they've never heard me play! I don't want to show up and then get summarily "Un" invited!
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by ceolgaelach
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
Only you will know when you are ready. If you can keep up and (since you play fiddle) not pose a problem due to an inability to play notes accurately (which has nothing to do with your acumen as an Irish player, per se), go ahead and dive in. You should have an awareness of how much attention you are drawing to yourself, so adjust accordingly. If the attendees are a good bunch, and you show that you are improving from one session to the next, you will be welcomed and encouraged. If, on the other hand, you play the same tunes and never appear to be working on your technique, the other players will gradually lose patience. Do your best and learn. Session playing can be a good way to do that. If anyone has a problem with that, it's not a reflection on you.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ailin
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
A bit less than three months. I've posted about my first experiences here:
http://thesession.org/discussions/display/12355/comments#comment251870
Actually, that whole thread is worthwhile.
How big is the session you're thinking of attending? Mine has about 30 players on average, with close to half of them fiddles. My teacher runs the session, and (as I posted in the linked comment) when he first invited me, promised me that if I messed up, I shouldn't worry - "no one can hear you!" I've been playing at my session for...almost five months, and I can tell you that my teacher wasn't lying. At times I messed up, and surveyed my surroundings to see if everyone in the pub was staring at me. They weren't. To the contrary: I've been asked, apparently in all seriousness, by some of the other musicians if I'd been playing since I was a kid, if I was classically trained, and so on - and it's certainly not because I'm a prodigy; I definitely don't sound like I've been playing for years and years. It's because the other musicians actually can't hear me.
If your local sessioneers are inviting you to join them without having heard you play, they're either a very friendly bunch or a very naive bunch who think that everyone who's ever touched a fiddle is an expert. The former is a lot more likely. Ailin gives some good advice; pay attention to the people next to you and react to them. More likely than not they'll be encouraging - especially since they invited you in the first place! I'll occasionally join in on a tune that I soon discover I can't play well enough at speed, so I'll bow out after a few bars. On busier nights I'll play more boldly. No one's ever asked me to leave; one fellow on tenor guitar actually said, and I quote, "As long as you're not so bad that you end up killing someone - you should play." If you're not comfortable doing that, practice your best tunes like mad and then play only those ones your first time.
As for being eternally damned to mediocrity...well, I've never heard you play either, but it;s been my experience that one way to improve more quickly (and probably THE best way for someone without a teacher!) is to play with others.
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
I was playing in local sessions after about 2 years. They were friendly and encouraging. It didn't hurt that I was married to someone with way more experience.
But here's the thing... IMHO, you'll NEVER be "good enough" UNTIL you actually get out and play in sessions. That's the thing that will pull your level up. Practicing and playing by yourself are really good tools. But even if you get to a certain comfort level there, you will be uncomfortable when it comes to playing with other people. The only way to get over that is to do it. The more you do it, the better you'll become.
My advice: Get out to the session you were invited to, try to be aware of what's going on around you, so that you don't annoy anyone, and have fun!
Pete
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Reverend
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
That is an excellent post by Ailin. I'm a late starter too but about ten years on from you by the sound of it. You have a ton of enthusiasm now that you could channel into doing a lot of practice at home. Home in on about a dozen tunes that go down well in the session you go to and really work on 'em, plus one or two of your own party pieces, why not? When you're at the session you need to be really SENSITIVE to how t'others react to you. As long as you don't go overboard and start thinking you're the dog's danglies just because you can play three reels you'll be accepted and welcomed. Another good idea is to get a minidisc recorder or something similar and record yourself, then do the hair-shirt thing and listen critically to yourself (or, even worse, get a musical friend to listen).
You can always just drink the beer and sit out a session. Just do enough to let everyone know you have an instrument but don't force anything. I even did this at The Cobblestone in Dublin, and it wasn't long before I was joining in despite my blatantly-feigned reluctance! And that's with a harmonica!
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
You mean we get good enough at some point?
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
A good observation for one only 2 years on the Bow and Fiddle!
Realizing there may be a problem with how one Bows a Fiddle is the very start of a long journey on the road to excellence and self realization.
Now is always a good time to begin such a journey, so Bon Voyage.
Oh and in case I should ever ever think I did not say what seems obvious to those of us who can well Bow a Fiddle, please do not be ashamed of Suzuki Book One or watching your Bowing in a mirror, or practicing for hours just with a metronome playing chords and scales... and so on. I bet you a bag of money there ISNT a good player today who has not already done all of these things ... as well as others, in order to become as good as they are.
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
How long? As has already been mentioned you’ve got to get out and do it. Be determined to progress and just turn up! Keep it down but get in there behind those who can. You’ll develop a feel for when you’re over stating your pass. Don’t worry too much about fluffing it, worry about getting it back together, skilful recovery is nine tenths the law.
Keep time & don’t upset anyone else’s, but most important, get the foamers in(GTFI)!
ATB
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by 8cats
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
"You mean we get good enough at some point?"
It's not like we ever get good enough that we can't get better, Jack. But the question is when we get good enough to get out and play in sessions. So answer wisely unless you want a barrage of beginners that come and noodle in the session that YOU are good enough to lead
In all seriousness, it's also important to note that sessions vary widely. You may be "good enough" to play in certain sessions, but it's also helpful to be "smart enough" to know when to put down your instrument and listen - or never even take it out of the case in some situations.
Pete
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Reverend
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
I'm not totally sure of how Jack *feels* from reading his post above. But I would have echoed his sentiments. I think the best musicians have a perennial unease about their own playing.
I *hope* I'm a reasonable musician. But I will never ever be 'good enough' in my view. And I include in that statement that I won't really be good enough to play in sessions. Doesn't mean I wouldn't play anywhere, though. I think beginners should play in sessions right from the start ... but judiciously, sparingly and sensitive to others in the session ... and only when, and whenever, they know the tune. This, by the way, is what I think most people do whenever they go to a session which is new to them.
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
Thanks, Ben. Yep... my statement was relating to my own abilities. I was being light hearted, but I often feel like I'm not good enough for anyone to bother listening to. I also have such a lack of confidence that I sometimes feel like staying home except for the fact that I enjoy the social aspects of a session too much and force myself out the door. I'm looking forward to the day when I might have little or no trepidation about unpacking the instruments and lashing into a tune with reckless abandon.
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
Ah, wouldn't that be great?
(that's supposed too look wistful in this context)
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
Heheh. In our session you're regarded as good enough if you haven't brought a recorder or a bodhran.
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
Don't get me wrong... I think humility is very important. Nobody likes someone who is full of themselves. But humility can be taken too far. If we were all so humble about our playing that we NEVER got out and played, it would defeat the purpose.
Pete
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Reverend
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
So to address the topic directly... when we discover ITM and sessions etc., we want to get involved because it looks so fun. If we were children when we discovered the music, as is usually the case if you live in Ireland, you have a lifetime to learn, and by the time you're old enough to go into a pub and sit with your peers and elders who also play -- you have learned quite well. As an adult you might be less patient and you'll want to get involved as quickly as possible. The concept of waiting many years while you learn the tunes and how to play an instrument seems too daunting. But the fact that it takes years to learn doesn't change.
Some instruments provide a perceived easy access. Even though it's true to a certain point, it still takes time. If you already play guitar quite well you might find yourself backing tunes fairly quickly, but it still takes time to familiarize yourself with the tunes. Many people think there's nothing hard about hitting a drum with a stick, but this misconception has led to the bad reputation of the instrument. The fact remains that it takes time and practice.
Does this mean that as a beginner you shouldn't go to sessions? No... it means you might not expect to play. Then the question is: how long do I wait before I play? I think you'll know in your heart of hearts when the time is right. It doesn't mean you should sit at the center of the action and expect to be involved in every tune; you can still listen when you don't know the tune or the playing is above your ability -- even with your instrument out of its case.
At our sessions we have learners showing up all the time. If they aren't bothered about not being catered to, and they aren't noodling audibly on tunes they don't know -- we enjoy their company. One of the best things about being at a session is the friends you make and the fun you have celebrating the music. Just be patient about the extent of your involvement in the music. Every day that you spend practicing and learning the tunes is another penny in the bank. Eventually you'll have enough saved up to participate fully in the session. When that day arrives it will seem to you like it really didn't take that long after all.
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
well said, Jack!
Using the somewhat cliché analogy of the music being like a conversation, adults will often engage children in conversation. They will encourage the children to communicate, and they often enjoy the conversations.
But if you were stuck in a fallout shelter for 3 months with nobody but a 4 year old, you'd really be wishing for an adult conversation by the time the radiation dissipated (and God forbid if you were the only adult left alive!)
At a dinner party, it's good for the children to know when it's appropriate for them to speak up, and when they should sit quietly in the corner, lest they get a swat on the butt, or sent to their room without dessert.
Pete
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Reverend
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
I should also point out that I'm one of the "children", so as not to come across sounding all full of myself with that last statement...
Pete
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Reverend
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
What the rev said about humility a few posts up is very appropriate. I know a good few people who are so awful it defies description, at least without resorting to the kind of anglo-saxon that would get me banned. Yet there they go, "playing," for want of a better word, ever louder and prouder. Big ego, no shame whatsoever. Lost causes the lot of 'em. But there are others who sit in the corner with their instruments kept well out of sight who must go home night after night frustrated at themselves for not having the balls to put themselves forward just a little bit. I've known one or two like that who, once they "come out," or are dragged out (it's often their spouse who tips the wink to the others!), are really worthwhile participants from the word go. Maybe not technically brilliant to begin with, but who play from the heart, which is what it's all about. You can always start with Fanny Power, and who's to gainsay that! Smile emoticon.
# Posted on February 14th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
I will let you know when it happens!
# Posted on February 14th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: How Long Before You Were Good Enough?
Damned to mediocrity! Hells teeth! mediocrity is what I aspire to. Just think of all the people who would be happy just to be able to play one tune, and remember if a thing is worth doing it is worth doing badly, only try not to do it so badly that the others get sick and leave.
I play music with people who are a lot younger and cleverer than I am. It is not their fault that they can get twice the result with half the effort. It is not my fault that I am a slow learner, all that matters is we all try, and enjoy it.
# Posted on February 17th 2007 by ubendum