I am both new to your site and new to playing in a session. As such, I'm trying to learn the etiquette and some 'common' tunes beforehand...areas that have been addressed very knowledgeably in some prior posts.
What I haven't seen is your opinion on the role of a mandolin in a session. Is it primarily considered a lead instrument and should not act as a backup by just playing chords? (I'm not talking about using the bluegrass 'chop'...but of using a more tasteful strum pattern.) And when playing the melody, should the tremolo technique not be used? What have other mando players done that you either appreciated or lead you to contemplate mayhem?
Thank you in advance for your advice...just please don't tell me to leave it at home!!
Any sessions i've been to have had mandolin's played lead. I know a few chords but have'nt played any in a session.
At a few sessions in the USA while on various holidays i noticed people playing backup more than you would see in Ireland.
I have seen people play tremolo style when backing a singer mostly.
My limited experience of mandolin's in sessions is of them playing lead. I asked the same question as you before at a session and was told (rather harshly) that "chords on a mandolin are only for people that can't play lead"? What do other people think?
You'd do well to go and buy Simon Mayor's "Mandolin Album no. 1" if you haven't done so already. He's the best mandolin player around these days in my opinion, and he plays a lot of different styles, so it's easy to gain an understanding of what techniques and sounds are appropriate for each.
I've heard both backup and lead on mando at sessions. Either can be nice in the right hands. I do like mando plinking out the melody with a fiddle or flute or concertina. If you want lead to sound Irish, you'll want those triplets fired up and working on all cylinders.
I don't know much about the mandolin at the sessions, but I think that in the band (when everybody knows the tunes properly) all mandolin family instruments are at their best when playing something between the melody and chords. E.g. you can begin with melody, then shift to counter melody and maybe add some double voicing or accented chords... anything! But after all melody is all that counts - everything else is just gravy (often gravy is the best part of the food...).
In the sessions I've been to I play melody if I know the tune, and I tend to vamp along with a two string drone, you can hardly call two strings a chord, generally with one open string and fitting the fingering to suit the melody. Mostly that seems to work.
I don't consider myself to be an expert mandolin player although I have been playing for a few years(along with other instruments) and attend a lot of sessions. Generally, I would regard CBOM (cittern,bouzouki, octave mandola) type instruments better for accompaniment although I adopt several techniques with the mandolin also eg modal chords can sound quite interesting along with wind instruments etc. Also, I often include chords and harmony notes along with the melody to try and obtain a fuller sound.
Sometimes, I might use a little tremelo effect with slow tunes and/or add extra triplets etc but this should be done sparingly so as the piece does not sound too "sugary". It is normal for mandolin players to add extra notes/triplets to most types of tunes to compensate for the "lack of sustain" compared to instruments like the fiddle, whistles, pipes etc. When to do so is usually a matter a personal taste and instinct.
The tradition is playing the melody in unison, so if you can learn the tune, that is the best way to go. Playing chords is ok if the other session players don't mind. Just watch to see what the ratio is of chord players to melody players. If you don't know the tune, sit it out if the chording instruments are overwhelming the melody. Learning appropriate ornamentation is encouraged.
A lot of players leave their mandolins at home in favour of banjo or fiddle, because many mandolins are not loud enough compete with fiddle, accordion etc. as melody instruments (I suspect this is the sole reason why it is not as common as tenor banjo in tradtional music - even though the mandolin predates it). On the other hand, as a chord instrument, the mandolin can be too penetrating.
That said, I play almost exclusively mandolin in sessions (I don't own a banjo and I can't play fiddle to save my life). I play it primarily as a melody instrument - the tunes are too good not to play. I occasionally use it for accompaniment, but only if there is nobody else backing at the time (because I can't pass up an opportunity to play the tune). I opt mostly for two- or three-string 'modal' chords, and try to weave in fragments of countermelody and arpeggio. As for songs, that obviously depends on the type of singer, the type of song and the type of session. Many singers prefer to sing altogether unaccompanied, and those that sing with some kind of accompaniment (whether that be rhythmic, chordal or melodic) do not necessarily want everybody in the session 'jamming along'. In most of the session i frequent, however, most of the songs sung are of the type which lend themselves to 'band'-type instrumentation. When accompanying such songs, I tend to alternate, as the mood takes me, between melody, countermelody, single note or chord tremolo, arpeggio, strummed chords and perhaps, loosely speaking, blues/bluegrass-type melodic improvisation, if it suits the song. Variety is the spice of life. I think mandolin players get away with a lot more than most other instrumentalists because we usually have to fight to be heard above the banjos, flutes, concertinas and pipes.
As AliceFlynn says "Playing chords is ok if the other session players don't mind". A true statement, however, I would add to that statement that at virtually all "hardcore" urban sessions many of the other players will mind, however 'most' of them are too polite and/or friendly to tell you so to your face. They'll just complain about it amongst themselves. (I am referring specifically to chord playing on mandolin, not guitar or 'zuki)
If you are lucky one of the complainers will "take you under their wing" and encourage you to learn melodies and maybe even help with recommended recordings and such.
Thanks to all for your suggestions. I'll try to track down those CD's. I had been focusing on learning the melodies, but I'd also purchased the book/CD Celtic Backup by Chris Smith. It seems from your posts that learning the backup techniques might be good in order to understand the structure of the tune and how instruments like the guitar contribute, but that most of my practice time should be spent on lead. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks again.
Laralyn, if you are used to thinking about music, as in bluegrass, "lead, harmony or backup", be aware that Irish Traditional Music is different. Don't think "lead", think melody, as everyone in a session is playing together as an ensemble, not as a band with a "lead". Only recently and only in some places have people become accepting of having session music played with guitars chording along. If you go back to other discussions on this forum, you will see that there are some who hate to hear instruments chording along or trying to play a harmony, as that muddies the sound of the melody to some purist ears. That said, I do take a guitar to our sessions, but I don't play it on every tune.
It would be worth your time to search the forum for past discussions on keywords like guitar, harmony, melody, etc.
PS.
My son plays mandolin at our session (he is 15). His contribution to the session is much appreciated and encouraged by the older players. One member of our session, a flute/whistle/box player who lives here in Montana in the summer and in Chicago in the winter has taken a particular interest in teaching my son many of the tunes played in his Chicago session.
The role of an instrument tends to be directly related to the size and composition of the ensemble, especially if there are no microphones involved. Volume, ability to cut through, various rhythm/support functions which may or may not be covered by another instrument all help determine what your best course of action is. If there are melody instruments (fiddle, whistles, flute), then opting for rhythmic support would be good. But, if there's an accordion, or a guitar or two, those instruments have that function anchored down pretty well, so you may want to just play the melody along with the fiddles, or play the melody an octave below the fiddle (if the tune allows) for a different texture.
There were several articles in MANDOCRUCIAN'S DIGEST, a mando rag I published from 86-97, which dealt with backup suitable for Irish/UK music. #8 had a workshop interview with Tony Cuffe (also an interview of Aly Bain). #'s24-25 had a long instructional article about backing a fiddle, flute or other high register instrument in a small or duo setting.
Mick Moloney also contributed a whole series of instructional columns ("Irish Mandolin & Tenor Banjo") and there was an Andy Irvine interview in the last (#27) issue. Most of the issues are still available although not in large quantities, and you there's a issue by issue contents listing at http://www.btinternet.com/~john.baldry/mando/hokkanen.html
Oops!...sorry Alice, I was using the words 'lead' and 'melody' interchangeably...and I shouldn't have. My background though is not really bluegrass, more like solo playing of fiddle tunes from Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tune book back in the 70's. Tunes that none of my friends knew at the time. Now I'm getting back into it, and would like to join in with others. (How wonderful that your son is not only starting in early, but also has a mentor!)
I do have the complete set of the Mandocrucian's Digest...so much good stuff. And I have read posts on a mandolin site that dealt with Celtic mandolin. I guess what I was looking for here was a non-mandolinist viewpoint...feeling that I was more likely to inadvertently annoy someone who plays a different instrument !
I sometimes play mandolin if it is a smaller, more quiet session.
I usually try to "double" the melody that the fiddles are playing, note for note, except for some ornaments like the long rolls. It is important to have the tune totally "nailed' - indecisive mandolin playing is really obvious IMO. If I don't know every note of the tune I will drop out and listen, rather than dropping back to droning or chord filling - what's the point?
Because the mando is very percussive in its sound, I see its role as defining the 'pulse' of the tune, acting to punctuate and push the edge of the beat in a way that sets up a framework for the blown or bowed instruments.
Mandolin's role
Mandolin's role
Hello Folks,
I am both new to your site and new to playing in a session. As such, I'm trying to learn the etiquette and some 'common' tunes beforehand...areas that have been addressed very knowledgeably in some prior posts.
What I haven't seen is your opinion on the role of a mandolin in a session. Is it primarily considered a lead instrument and should not act as a backup by just playing chords? (I'm not talking about using the bluegrass 'chop'...but of using a more tasteful strum pattern.) And when playing the melody, should the tremolo technique not be used? What have other mando players done that you either appreciated or lead you to contemplate mayhem?
Thank you in advance for your advice...just please don't tell me to leave it at home!!
Loralyn
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Loralyn
Re: Mandolin's role
Any sessions i've been to have had mandolin's played lead. I know a few chords but have'nt played any in a session.
At a few sessions in the USA while on various holidays i noticed people playing backup more than you would see in Ireland.
I have seen people play tremolo style when backing a singer mostly.
My limited experience of mandolin's in sessions is of them playing lead. I asked the same question as you before at a session and was told (rather harshly) that "chords on a mandolin are only for people that can't play lead"? What do other people think?
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Celtic1234
Re: Mandolin's role
You'd do well to go and buy Simon Mayor's "Mandolin Album no. 1" if you haven't done so already. He's the best mandolin player around these days in my opinion, and he plays a lot of different styles, so it's easy to gain an understanding of what techniques and sounds are appropriate for each.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Mandolin's role
I've heard both backup and lead on mando at sessions. Either can be nice in the right hands. I do like mando plinking out the melody with a fiddle or flute or concertina. If you want lead to sound Irish, you'll want those triplets fired up and working on all cylinders.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Mandolin's role
I don't know much about the mandolin at the sessions, but I think that in the band (when everybody knows the tunes properly) all mandolin family instruments are at their best when playing something between the melody and chords. E.g. you can begin with melody, then shift to counter melody and maybe add some double voicing or accented chords... anything! But after all melody is all that counts - everything else is just gravy (often gravy is the best part of the food...).
Oh, please don't leave it home!
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Jani
Re: Mandolin's role
In the sessions I've been to I play melody if I know the tune, and I tend to vamp along with a two string drone, you can hardly call two strings a chord, generally with one open string and fitting the fingering to suit the melody. Mostly that seems to work.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Davetnova
Re: Mandolin's role
I don't consider myself to be an expert mandolin player although I have been playing for a few years(along with other instruments) and attend a lot of sessions. Generally, I would regard CBOM (cittern,bouzouki, octave mandola) type instruments better for accompaniment although I adopt several techniques with the mandolin also eg modal chords can sound quite interesting along with wind instruments etc. Also, I often include chords and harmony notes along with the melody to try and obtain a fuller sound.
Sometimes, I might use a little tremelo effect with slow tunes and/or add extra triplets etc but this should be done sparingly so as the piece does not sound too "sugary". It is normal for mandolin players to add extra notes/triplets to most types of tunes to compensate for the "lack of sustain" compared to instruments like the fiddle, whistles, pipes etc. When to do so is usually a matter a personal taste and instinct.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Mandolin's role
Brendan O' Reagan's solo album is worth a listen to.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Alf Tupper
Re: Mandolin's role
The tradition is playing the melody in unison, so if you can learn the tune, that is the best way to go. Playing chords is ok if the other session players don't mind. Just watch to see what the ratio is of chord players to melody players. If you don't know the tune, sit it out if the chording instruments are overwhelming the melody. Learning appropriate ornamentation is encouraged.
Recommended CD - Mick Moloney, "Strings Attached"
# Posted on January 15th 2003 by aliceflynn
Re: Mandolin's role
A lot of players leave their mandolins at home in favour of banjo or fiddle, because many mandolins are not loud enough compete with fiddle, accordion etc. as melody instruments (I suspect this is the sole reason why it is not as common as tenor banjo in tradtional music - even though the mandolin predates it). On the other hand, as a chord instrument, the mandolin can be too penetrating.
That said, I play almost exclusively mandolin in sessions (I don't own a banjo and I can't play fiddle to save my life). I play it primarily as a melody instrument - the tunes are too good not to play. I occasionally use it for accompaniment, but only if there is nobody else backing at the time (because I can't pass up an opportunity to play the tune). I opt mostly for two- or three-string 'modal' chords, and try to weave in fragments of countermelody and arpeggio. As for songs, that obviously depends on the type of singer, the type of song and the type of session. Many singers prefer to sing altogether unaccompanied, and those that sing with some kind of accompaniment (whether that be rhythmic, chordal or melodic) do not necessarily want everybody in the session 'jamming along'. In most of the session i frequent, however, most of the songs sung are of the type which lend themselves to 'band'-type instrumentation. When accompanying such songs, I tend to alternate, as the mood takes me, between melody, countermelody, single note or chord tremolo, arpeggio, strummed chords and perhaps, loosely speaking, blues/bluegrass-type melodic improvisation, if it suits the song. Variety is the spice of life. I think mandolin players get away with a lot more than most other instrumentalists because we usually have to fight to be heard above the banjos, flutes, concertinas and pipes.
# Posted on January 15th 2003 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin's role
Mandolin ?? Melody, Melody, Melody !!!!
As AliceFlynn says "Playing chords is ok if the other session players don't mind". A true statement, however, I would add to that statement that at virtually all "hardcore" urban sessions many of the other players will mind, however 'most' of them are too polite and/or friendly to tell you so to your face. They'll just complain about it amongst themselves. (I am referring specifically to chord playing on mandolin, not guitar or 'zuki)
If you are lucky one of the complainers will "take you under their wing" and encourage you to learn melodies and maybe even help with recommended recordings and such.
# Posted on January 15th 2003 by Tusong200
Re: Mandolin's role
Thanks to all for your suggestions. I'll try to track down those CD's. I had been focusing on learning the melodies, but I'd also purchased the book/CD Celtic Backup by Chris Smith. It seems from your posts that learning the backup techniques might be good in order to understand the structure of the tune and how instruments like the guitar contribute, but that most of my practice time should be spent on lead. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks again.
# Posted on January 15th 2003 by Loralyn
Re: Mandolin's role
Laralyn, if you are used to thinking about music, as in bluegrass, "lead, harmony or backup", be aware that Irish Traditional Music is different. Don't think "lead", think melody, as everyone in a session is playing together as an ensemble, not as a band with a "lead". Only recently and only in some places have people become accepting of having session music played with guitars chording along. If you go back to other discussions on this forum, you will see that there are some who hate to hear instruments chording along or trying to play a harmony, as that muddies the sound of the melody to some purist ears. That said, I do take a guitar to our sessions, but I don't play it on every tune.
It would be worth your time to search the forum for past discussions on keywords like guitar, harmony, melody, etc.
Have fun and keep playing.
Alice
# Posted on January 16th 2003 by aliceflynn
Ps mandolin in session
PS.
My son plays mandolin at our session (he is 15). His contribution to the session is much appreciated and encouraged by the older players. One member of our session, a flute/whistle/box player who lives here in Montana in the summer and in Chicago in the winter has taken a particular interest in teaching my son many of the tunes played in his Chicago session.
Alice
# Posted on January 16th 2003 by aliceflynn
Re: Mandolin's role
The role of an instrument tends to be directly related to the size and composition of the ensemble, especially if there are no microphones involved. Volume, ability to cut through, various rhythm/support functions which may or may not be covered by another instrument all help determine what your best course of action is. If there are melody instruments (fiddle, whistles, flute), then opting for rhythmic support would be good. But, if there's an accordion, or a guitar or two, those instruments have that function anchored down pretty well, so you may want to just play the melody along with the fiddles, or play the melody an octave below the fiddle (if the tune allows) for a different texture.
There were several articles in MANDOCRUCIAN'S DIGEST, a mando rag I published from 86-97, which dealt with backup suitable for Irish/UK music. #8 had a workshop interview with Tony Cuffe (also an interview of Aly Bain). #'s24-25 had a long instructional article about backing a fiddle, flute or other high register instrument in a small or duo setting.
Mick Moloney also contributed a whole series of instructional columns ("Irish Mandolin & Tenor Banjo") and there was an Andy Irvine interview in the last (#27) issue. Most of the issues are still available although not in large quantities, and you there's a issue by issue contents listing at http://www.btinternet.com/~john.baldry/mando/hokkanen.html
Niles Hokkanen
# Posted on January 16th 2003 by Niles H
Re: Mandolin's role
Oops!...sorry Alice, I was using the words 'lead' and 'melody' interchangeably...and I shouldn't have. My background though is not really bluegrass, more like solo playing of fiddle tunes from Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tune book back in the 70's. Tunes that none of my friends knew at the time. Now I'm getting back into it, and would like to join in with others. (How wonderful that your son is not only starting in early, but also has a mentor!)
I do have the complete set of the Mandocrucian's Digest...so much good stuff. And I have read posts on a mandolin site that dealt with Celtic mandolin. I guess what I was looking for here was a non-mandolinist viewpoint...feeling that I was more likely to inadvertently annoy someone who plays a different instrument !
But again, my thanks for all the advice,
Loralyn
# Posted on January 16th 2003 by Loralyn
Re: Mandolin's role
I sometimes play mandolin if it is a smaller, more quiet session.
I usually try to "double" the melody that the fiddles are playing, note for note, except for some ornaments like the long rolls. It is important to have the tune totally "nailed' - indecisive mandolin playing is really obvious IMO. If I don't know every note of the tune I will drop out and listen, rather than dropping back to droning or chord filling - what's the point?
Because the mando is very percussive in its sound, I see its role as defining the 'pulse' of the tune, acting to punctuate and push the edge of the beat in a way that sets up a framework for the blown or bowed instruments.
Bob
# Posted on January 19th 2003 by Laughtonb
Re: Mandolin's role
Thanks for the tip on Brendan O' Reagan's solo album, and I agree that Mick Maloney's CD is worth checking out.
Anyone have any other recommendations for on-topic CDs?
# Posted on January 24th 2003 by mad dawg