How many fiddlers here use vibrato and to what extent (outside of slow airs that is)? I promise this is not a windup. By way of self-disclosure I periodically use a subtle, very narrow vibrato.
Hi Velvet. One way to start is to position your hand up the neck next to the body (about where you might expect third position to be, but it doesn't matter if it's not really third position...it's just easier to begin with up there). Make sure your hand and arm and shoulder are all *really* relaxed...no gripping on tight with your thumb or other bits (this is the most important part). Then starting with your third finger, just slowly and rhythmically rock your hand back and forward leaving the fleshy bit of your third finger (preferably not right on the tip) anchored on the string. It's good to start with a metronome at a slow setting to go with your rocking movement and gradually speed it up over a period of days as you get more confident. Then you move back to first position. Do the same with your other fingers. The hardest is the first finger in first position. Takes a long time to get it going properly and it needs regular practice until you get the knack. I've heard people suggest that it's good to get it going properly with just one finger first and then move onto the others, so you at least feel like you're making some progress. It might also be a bit frustrating if you don't hold the fiddle in the classical grip since a lot of people rest the fiddle on their left hands, which can limit freedom of movement a bit. But then again someone like Martin Hayes plays with the neck resting across the palm of his left hand, and he manages just fine.
No matter how much I tried to remember not to collapse my wrist, I found the neck resting in the palm of my hand. I think that is from playing guitar for 40 years. I finally came up with a solution that is working for me. I spent 4 dollars on a wrist brace. It has velcro on it and is still flexible, but I can feel it when the wrist tries to collapse. I find I can get some vibrato now, and more importantly, my intonation has improved. Although I wish I could adapt like Martin Hayes, the four dollars turned out to be a pretty good investment.
I'm glad this isn't a wind up Ger - I get so tired of those, after all we're here to learn, aren't we!
I think a little goes a long, long way, when it comes to vibrato in Traditional Music. For example, when I switched on to Geantrai last night, there was a woman playing a Viola, using vibrato in bucket loads, I felt, & then she switched to Fiddle & still used it. Later, she played some Jigs & Reels & proved that she is indeed a cracking player, but I just don't think that vibrato suits a trad air.
I have a tape, somewhere, which is all slow airs on the fiddle & the use of vibrato is only very subtle, in fact almost non existant, & I find the music far more poignant & natural.
Must say, I also prefer to listen to unaccompanied singing when there is little, or none, of that yodling that so often spoils a good song. It makes it sound like opera, or Indian singing, which to me sounds like you are supposed to sit back & marvel at the voice, or count all the warbles, instead of enjoy & appreciate the words of the song ........ but I digress
To be honest I used no vibrato at all, simply because like Pearse, I've played for over 30 years now, in the style of a 'country fiddler' with the Fiddle neck resting on the palm of my hand, so proper vibrato is out of the question.
However, I met up with James Byrne at Cultra one year & was surprised to see him appear to shake the whole fiddle to get his vibrato on some notes of a slow tune, so I thought if it's good enough for James Byrne, then it's certainly good enough for me. So that's what I do now & I don't give a monkeys what any snobby, classically trained, fiddlers think of that style. There's always more than one way to skin a cat!
Another way to develop vibrato is to practice going up and down the positions on the fingerboard until you can do that movement without thinking. To do this you have to have a relaxed left hand and no "death grip" with the thumb, as Ger said. When you can do this then vibrato will come naturally because it and free movement up and down the fingerboard are closely related by the fundamental requirement for relaxation.
I suggest it is more important to be able to move easily up and down the fingerboard than it is to have a mechanical, tiring and uncontrollable vibrato in the first position. Going out of the first position isn't common in Irish fiddle music, but it is useful to be able to do it when required. In the last few days I've been browsing through a book of 18/19th century Scottish fiddle tunes (jigs), and there are several that quite happily go up into the 4th position. Even if you never have to go out of the first position the relaxed left hand that would enable you to do so is of inestimable value in all your playing, including being able to play the fingered ornaments properly.
Getting back to vibrato, in Irish music it is definitely in the category of occasional ornamentation (as it was in Baroque music), and isn't compulsory, even in slow airs. If you want to use vibrato, you should bear that in mind.
If you do develop a relaxed vibrato and wish to use it properly on occasion - perhaps in some of the modern waltz tunes like the Ashokan Farewell where it may well be appropriate - you should learn to control it regarding frequency (slow - fast) and amplitude (narrow - wide). That control makes a lot of difference musically. A few lessons from a good teacher will be useful if you ever want to explore the more advanced forms of vibrato.
A good vibrato will enrich the tone if done properly - the technical reason for this is that side-band frequencies are generated by the frequency modulation of the vibrato and enrich the harmonic content of the sound, but it should never be used to mask poor intonation, something which is still sadly far too prevalent in amateur classical violin playing (and singing).
I use it *very* sparingly ... and only on a slow tune (like Ashokan Farewell or Crested Hens).
And, when I do, I use it like Isaac Stern; I make sure I hit the note clean and let it ring for a bit before adding a little vibrato to "put a little emotion" into it.
I'm not fond of lots and lots of vibrato in any type of music, whether it's instrumental or vocal. I *really* don't like too much of Mariah Carey-style "runs" in vocals.
I use it all the time... if you're just learning... hold the fiddle so that it rests on your left shoulder and so you can hold it just with your chin. Then lean against a wall with the scroll on the wall (use a towel so that you don't get yelled at by making a mark on the wall)... then rock your hand back and forth slowly... do this about 5 times a day on each finger for.
"... he uses a bit of vibrato now and again." - that sounds like plenty, to me. That fiddler on Geantrai, last night, used it on 'every' single note, which, to my ears, very quickly gets very monotonous. It sounds
I suppose, to be honest, the same can easily be said for too many rolls in a tune which is played in a Clare style &/or too many triplets in a Donegal style.
Any of the above forms of ornamentation, when used to excess, must surely point to the strong possibility that the culprit is showing classic signs of an - 'obsessive-compulsive disorder'!
Surely you all know that too much of anything is bad for you? I mean, even in my 9 to 5 job as a 'gigolo' ( that's 9pm to 5am by the way!) there are times when I just have to say, no, no more & I just yearn for a good book.
Sarah, no harm to you, but I seem to remember a thread here, many moons ago, which discussed this notion that things just happen when we play, like the spirit of an ancient ancestor of Willie Clancy was sitting on your shoulder, giving your elbow a nudge every now & then, to enhance the music at just the right moment!
Do you really believe that, or do you concede that we do it all ourselves?
Surely you must know that it is you & only you who decides when & where to put your fingers & how to use the bow - it's all deliberate ....... isn't it?
Every nuance of your playing is surely done consciously & intentionally.
So if you do admit the above, then you must confess, here & now, that you yourself decide when & where to use vibrato?
Confess, confess I say, or I'm off to get my thumbscrews!
P.S. Sarah, I see from your bio that you live in Ft William. Ah, Ben Nevis. Speaking of vibrato, that brings back memories - you see, I lost my cherry on the slopes of the Ben ........................... I suppose it's far too late to go back & look for it now!
You haven't noticed any Cherry trees growing on the slopes, have you?
I use vibrato as an accentutation and more often
than not at the end of the phrase. Sparingly and well is the key, also its imperative you are in tune otherwise it sounds just plain awful.
Ptarmigan, you walk as a god (or Snow Chicken) among men! I agree with everything you say. Too much warbling serves as an effective emetic.
Another idea for people who hold the fiddle in a way that makes classical vibrato a bridge too far is something I've seen several people do which is simply to wiggle the relevant finger sideways a bit. It looks a little like a blues guitarist bending a note by dragging the string to the side, only faster, more subtle and wobbly to give the vibrato sound. I've tried it and it's easy to do and has the added virtue of being intrinsically subtle too..a wide lugubrious grand opera effect isn't really possible with this one.
The top of Ben Nevis is a surreal place, at any rate in a mist as when I went up it. It could have been the scenery for some play set after the end of the world, with its ruins and memorials and people stumbling around. I noticed snow-buntings hopping about like sparrows, picking up crumbs, but of ptarmigans not a trace. Nor cherry trees or cherries.
If you try this last one, make sure you don't press the string down too heavily...it works best if your finger is not quite touching ground and pressing the string all the way into (or through!) the fingerboard. But then again, v. light pressure works best all round on the fiddle.
My brother and I once set fire to my grandmother's outhouse (we call them dunnies) and the consequent beating of our 'neckties' left us with a strong vibrato for a couple of days!
Well Ptarmy my old friend! I'm one of those snobby classically trained violinists and I use vibrato sometimes and I use a tuner sometimes and one day I might even dig out a bodhran if I think some self taught low life from the mustard Board is in my session and may be annoyed by it. (Runs and hides behind the sofa )
Iain Fraser once discussed vibrato with us in a masterclass, he also seemed to be of the opinion that it's a great tool but one which shouldn't be overused. He used the analogy of a blank sheet of paper being the backbone of the tune, and how you can use vibrato and ornaments etc. in the right places to "paint" an amazing picture, but if you do it all the time then you just have a totally black sheet of paper. Kind of deep, but it makes the point well I think.
As for me, say if I play a dotted whole note or longer in a jig and I don't put an ornament/roll on it, then I'll use the vibrato, but outside of waltzes/airs/mazurkas I don't pull it out much. Definitely never get the chance in a reel, as the note's changed by the time you rock your hand back even once!
Vibrato
Vibrato
How many fiddlers here use vibrato and to what extent (outside of slow airs that is)? I promise this is not a windup. By way of self-disclosure I periodically use a subtle, very narrow vibrato.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Vibrato
I used to use vibrado all the time to accompany singers and for slow airs. (not playing right now - hand problems)
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by morning star
Re: Vibrato
very seldom, on a longer note to sweeten it.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: Vibrato
I still can't get the hang of vibrato, though i do think it sounds lovely. Would anyone have any tips on how to do it?
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by velvet
Re: Vibrato
not me
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Vibrato
Hi Velvet. One way to start is to position your hand up the neck next to the body (about where you might expect third position to be, but it doesn't matter if it's not really third position...it's just easier to begin with up there). Make sure your hand and arm and shoulder are all *really* relaxed...no gripping on tight with your thumb or other bits (this is the most important part). Then starting with your third finger, just slowly and rhythmically rock your hand back and forward leaving the fleshy bit of your third finger (preferably not right on the tip) anchored on the string. It's good to start with a metronome at a slow setting to go with your rocking movement and gradually speed it up over a period of days as you get more confident. Then you move back to first position. Do the same with your other fingers. The hardest is the first finger in first position. Takes a long time to get it going properly and it needs regular practice until you get the knack. I've heard people suggest that it's good to get it going properly with just one finger first and then move onto the others, so you at least feel like you're making some progress. It might also be a bit frustrating if you don't hold the fiddle in the classical grip since a lot of people rest the fiddle on their left hands, which can limit freedom of movement a bit. But then again someone like Martin Hayes plays with the neck resting across the palm of his left hand, and he manages just fine.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Vibrato
No matter how much I tried to remember not to collapse my wrist, I found the neck resting in the palm of my hand. I think that is from playing guitar for 40 years. I finally came up with a solution that is working for me. I spent 4 dollars on a wrist brace. It has velcro on it and is still flexible, but I can feel it when the wrist tries to collapse. I find I can get some vibrato now, and more importantly, my intonation has improved. Although I wish I could adapt like Martin Hayes, the four dollars turned out to be a pretty good investment.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by pearse
Re: Vibrato
I'm glad this isn't a wind up Ger - I get so tired of those, after all we're here to learn, aren't we!
I think a little goes a long, long way, when it comes to vibrato in Traditional Music. For example, when I switched on to Geantrai last night, there was a woman playing a Viola, using vibrato in bucket loads, I felt, & then she switched to Fiddle & still used it. Later, she played some Jigs & Reels & proved that she is indeed a cracking player, but I just don't think that vibrato suits a trad air.
I have a tape, somewhere, which is all slow airs on the fiddle & the use of vibrato is only very subtle, in fact almost non existant, & I find the music far more poignant & natural.
Must say, I also prefer to listen to unaccompanied singing when there is little, or none, of that yodling that so often spoils a good song. It makes it sound like opera, or Indian singing, which to me sounds like you are supposed to sit back & marvel at the voice, or count all the warbles, instead of enjoy & appreciate the words of the song ........ but I digress
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Vibrato
To be honest I used no vibrato at all, simply because like Pearse, I've played for over 30 years now, in the style of a 'country fiddler' with the Fiddle neck resting on the palm of my hand, so proper vibrato is out of the question.
However, I met up with James Byrne at Cultra one year & was surprised to see him appear to shake the whole fiddle to get his vibrato on some notes of a slow tune, so I thought if it's good enough for James Byrne, then it's certainly good enough for me. So that's what I do now & I don't give a monkeys what any snobby, classically trained, fiddlers think of that style. There's always more than one way to skin a cat!
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Vibrato
Another way to develop vibrato is to practice going up and down the positions on the fingerboard until you can do that movement without thinking. To do this you have to have a relaxed left hand and no "death grip" with the thumb, as Ger said. When you can do this then vibrato will come naturally because it and free movement up and down the fingerboard are closely related by the fundamental requirement for relaxation.
I suggest it is more important to be able to move easily up and down the fingerboard than it is to have a mechanical, tiring and uncontrollable vibrato in the first position. Going out of the first position isn't common in Irish fiddle music, but it is useful to be able to do it when required. In the last few days I've been browsing through a book of 18/19th century Scottish fiddle tunes (jigs), and there are several that quite happily go up into the 4th position. Even if you never have to go out of the first position the relaxed left hand that would enable you to do so is of inestimable value in all your playing, including being able to play the fingered ornaments properly.
Getting back to vibrato, in Irish music it is definitely in the category of occasional ornamentation (as it was in Baroque music), and isn't compulsory, even in slow airs. If you want to use vibrato, you should bear that in mind.
If you do develop a relaxed vibrato and wish to use it properly on occasion - perhaps in some of the modern waltz tunes like the Ashokan Farewell where it may well be appropriate - you should learn to control it regarding frequency (slow - fast) and amplitude (narrow - wide). That control makes a lot of difference musically. A few lessons from a good teacher will be useful if you ever want to explore the more advanced forms of vibrato.
A good vibrato will enrich the tone if done properly - the technical reason for this is that side-band frequencies are generated by the frequency modulation of the vibrato and enrich the harmonic content of the sound, but it should never be used to mask poor intonation, something which is still sadly far too prevalent in amateur classical violin playing (and singing).
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Vibrato
"counting the warbles" - best phrase in months - perfect description of a lot that I dislike in classical and other vocals.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Vibrato
I use it *very* sparingly ... and only on a slow tune (like Ashokan Farewell or Crested Hens).
And, when I do, I use it like Isaac Stern; I make sure I hit the note clean and let it ring for a bit before adding a little vibrato to "put a little emotion" into it.
I'm not fond of lots and lots of vibrato in any type of music, whether it's instrumental or vocal. I *really* don't like too much of Mariah Carey-style "runs" in vocals.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Vibrato
I use it all the time... if you're just learning... hold the fiddle so that it rests on your left shoulder and so you can hold it just with your chin. Then lean against a wall with the scroll on the wall (use a towel so that you don't get yelled at by making a mark on the wall)... then rock your hand back and forth slowly... do this about 5 times a day on each finger for.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by pastrings
Re: Vibrato
You use it all the time? Don't
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Vibrato
I use it sometimes, especially when I'm doing a drone or double-stop. If you watch the Kevin Burke videos, he uses a bit of vibrato now and again.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Screetch
Re: Vibrato
"... he uses a bit of vibrato now and again." - that sounds like plenty, to me. That fiddler on Geantrai, last night, used it on 'every' single note, which, to my ears, very quickly gets very monotonous. It sounds
I suppose, to be honest, the same can easily be said for too many rolls in a tune which is played in a Clare style &/or too many triplets in a Donegal style.
Any of the above forms of ornamentation, when used to excess, must surely point to the strong possibility that the culprit is showing classic signs of an - 'obsessive-compulsive disorder'!
Surely you all know that too much of anything is bad for you? I mean, even in my 9 to 5 job as a 'gigolo' ( that's 9pm to 5am by the way!) there are times when I just have to say, no, no more & I just yearn for a good book.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Vibrato
i dont use vibrato 'on purpose' just happens when it feels right and also when im nervous it happens too lol.. especially in slow airs!!
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by sarahjfiddle
Re: Vibrato
Sarah, no harm to you, but I seem to remember a thread here, many moons ago, which discussed this notion that things just happen when we play, like the spirit of an ancient ancestor of Willie Clancy was sitting on your shoulder, giving your elbow a nudge every now & then, to enhance the music at just the right moment!
Do you really believe that, or do you concede that we do it all ourselves?
Surely you must know that it is you & only you who decides when & where to put your fingers & how to use the bow - it's all deliberate ....... isn't it?
Every nuance of your playing is surely done consciously & intentionally.
So if you do admit the above, then you must confess, here & now, that you yourself decide when & where to use vibrato?
Confess, confess I say, or I'm off to get my thumbscrews!
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Vibrato
P.S. Sarah, I see from your bio that you live in Ft William. Ah, Ben Nevis. Speaking of vibrato, that brings back memories - you see, I lost my cherry on the slopes of the Ben ........................... I suppose it's far too late to go back & look for it now!
You haven't noticed any Cherry trees growing on the slopes, have you?
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Vibrato
I use vibrato as an accentutation and more often
than not at the end of the phrase. Sparingly and well is the key, also its imperative you are in tune otherwise it sounds just plain awful.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Joze
Re: Vibrato
Ptarmigan, you walk as a god (or Snow Chicken) among men! I agree with everything you say. Too much warbling serves as an effective emetic.
Another idea for people who hold the fiddle in a way that makes classical vibrato a bridge too far is something I've seen several people do which is simply to wiggle the relevant finger sideways a bit. It looks a little like a blues guitarist bending a note by dragging the string to the side, only faster, more subtle and wobbly to give the vibrato sound. I've tried it and it's easy to do and has the added virtue of being intrinsically subtle too..a wide lugubrious grand opera effect isn't really possible with this one.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Vibrato
The top of Ben Nevis is a surreal place, at any rate in a mist as when I went up it. It could have been the scenery for some play set after the end of the world, with its ruins and memorials and people stumbling around. I noticed snow-buntings hopping about like sparrows, picking up crumbs, but of ptarmigans not a trace. Nor cherry trees or cherries.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Vibrato
If you try this last one, make sure you don't press the string down too heavily...it works best if your finger is not quite touching ground and pressing the string all the way into (or through!) the fingerboard. But then again, v. light pressure works best all round on the fiddle.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Vibrato
By 'this last one' I meant the vibrato, not Ptarmigan's cherry thing.
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Vibrato
"I agree with everything you say." - Then Ger it is clear, and from here you appear, to be as wise as I.
But as a wise man, you must never forget:
"Three wise men of Gotham
Went to sea in a bowl.
If the bowl had been stronger
My tale had been longer."
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Vibrato
""I agree with everything you say." - Then Ger it is clear, and from here you appear, to be as wise as I."..a truly wise guy!
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Vibrato
"Who's the Wise Guy?":
http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2569619560014310162VIOuMQ
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Vibrato
I want a necktie like that! (come to think of it, I already have one.)
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Vibrato
Hey Ger, the guest of honour at this 'Necktie Party' probably didn't concern himself too much with Vibrato:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NECKTIE-PARTY-HANGING-OLD-WEST-NOVELTY-BROADSIDE_W0QQitemZ180083628011QQihZ008QQcategoryZ4013QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
An interesting desprado for sure who, amongst other heinous crimes, actually set fire to several outhouses! .... Wooooooo
# Posted on February 12th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Vibrato
My brother and I once set fire to my grandmother's outhouse (we call them dunnies) and the consequent beating of our 'neckties' left us with a strong vibrato for a couple of days!
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Vibrato
"You use it all the time? Don't" - llig
Agreed - bb
Agreed - Dow
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Vibrato
Well Ptarmy my old friend! I'm one of those snobby classically trained violinists and I use vibrato sometimes and I use a tuner sometimes and one day I might even dig out a bodhran if I think some self taught low life from the mustard Board is in my session and may be annoyed by it. (Runs and hides behind the sofa
)
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Vibrato
Iain Fraser once discussed vibrato with us in a masterclass, he also seemed to be of the opinion that it's a great tool but one which shouldn't be overused. He used the analogy of a blank sheet of paper being the backbone of the tune, and how you can use vibrato and ornaments etc. in the right places to "paint" an amazing picture, but if you do it all the time then you just have a totally black sheet of paper. Kind of deep, but it makes the point well I think.
As for me, say if I play a dotted whole note or longer in a jig and I don't put an ornament/roll on it, then I'll use the vibrato, but outside of waltzes/airs/mazurkas I don't pull it out much. Definitely never get the chance in a reel, as the note's changed by the time you rock your hand back even once!
Cheers, S
# Posted on February 19th 2007 by Swift