the first thing that comes to my mind now about the book(the one which I have BTW is the 1001 one and not an old copy) is that it seems that most reels were played as single reels back then in O'Neill's time - well at least thats how they were transcribed, I assume they actually WERE played in a single manner because other double reels which are still played today as double reels were transcribed by O'Neill's officers as double (e.g. the Woman of the House),
I'm considering the following things - with regard to the O'Neill era - and would appreciate your help or opinion:
1) the development of the reel form, I understand many started from the clan marches and had only one section which is even half the size of a single reel - well,when can we actually find the first examples of double reels? also, what about the scottish reels at the time(the turn of the century) - would someone be willing to check a Scottish bagpipe manuscript (I reckon that in Scottish bagpipe music every detail must be put down precisely) and tell if they are played double\single?
2) the reel as it was danced at the turn of the century, any information one could partake on the subject?
were the reels mostly danced as single reels or rather - double?
Are you using the terms "single" and "double" reel to mean that each part (presumably 8 bars) is not repeated or, in the second case, is repeated to give the familiar 32-bar tune?
There are those who would argue that a better use for the terms is to refer to the usual reel *rhythm* (the double) or a much less common rhythm, the "single reel".
See the interesting resources at: http://www.irishtune.info/
and in particular, you might like to start reading at: http://www.irishtune.info/rhythm/history.html
I read somewhere that the single reels (often transcribed as 4 bars repeated followed by 8 bars) are generally of greater antiquity than the type with 2 or more 8 bar sections each repeated, and should be treasured as such. However a lot of them were doubled up and became double reels for the purposes of step dancing (not something I know much about). Also confusingly a single reel is a term for a polka (I think) in some parts of Ireland.
I thought the term single reel refers to reels only 16-bars long, where the 8-bar parts are played only once each, unlike
double reels where there are 32 bars (in your typical 2-part tune), but maybe Earnest is thinking of your latter definition.
If so, the question is a good one. Maybe it would be possible to source the answer from very early recordings, ie those made around the time O'Neill's 1850 was published (is that around 1904?) Maybe Patsy Tuohy in the early 1900's?
You can also analyze the melodic structure of reels, on average most true double reels, (A=8 / B=8 ~ AABB), have melodic structure that defines better as 8 measures, rather than being just a 4-bar phrase repeated twice, identical, to make 8. This is also how you can find single reels that have been stretched into double-duty... Also to remember, some single jigs existed previously as flings and their structure tends to have a second ending in the B-part. So, that type of 'single reel' ~ A=4 / B=4 & the second ending could be C=4, or b-c, where the first 2 measures are repeated from the B and the last 2 bars are the second ending ~ AABC = 16 measures, or AABb-c = 16 measures.
As 'dance music' you are wise to check out the dances the tunes were used for. They are similarly phrased and defined, by 32, 16, 8, 4 and 2 measure phrases, the parts, figures and moves... You will find that as things began to be codified, such as by the Gaelic League at the end of the 1800's, and later ‘An Coimisiún Le Rincí Gaelacha’ ~ you end up with their official publication of ceili dances, "30 Popular Figure Dances", and if you analyze the structure of these you'll find a number of dances that structurally call for double reels. If you want to trace this back further, then you would have to dig into the related traditions of 'Country Dance', including Playford, RSCDS (Royal Scottish Country Dance), English, American (Canada & the USA) ~ etc... You'll find 32 bar dances in those traditions, where 32 bars is the ideal tune length and definition. Many of the dances are what is called 'progressive', meaning they repeat as the dancers progress in one direction or the other. For example, you do the dance for 32 measures worth, then move on, usually at the end, to repeat it facing another couple, as for 'longways dances'. This can go on repeating for quite some time, as it used to do in the larger halls. Similar definitions exist for circle and square formation dances, and also for couple dances, including pattern waltzes like "The Pride of Erin", or earlier, "The Waltz Cotillion"...
Enough said, yes, it is dance music, so it would be wise to get familiar with the dance as both speak to each other and those demands help to shape the outcome, in the music and in the dance... It is a glorious symbiosis that sessions are too often bereft of...
On the Irish side, there are important tune collections to check out other than O'Neill's, including Roche's... There are tons of dance tomes worth checking and many of these are available online, for example the Library of Congress collection, but it doesn't end there...
In sessions, as I suspect it is mostly a side effect of that grist mill, the lack of familiarity with second endings lead to repeats, the consequence being that a lot of single reels (& highland flings) were eventually turned into and eventually taken for granted as double...
That's also what happens when the music is divorced from the dance... Those 16 measures and second endings defined and accompanied changes as they occured the dances they were originally mated to...
O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
hello,
the first thing that comes to my mind now about the book(the one which I have BTW is the 1001 one and not an old copy) is that it seems that most reels were played as single reels back then in O'Neill's time - well at least thats how they were transcribed, I assume they actually WERE played in a single manner because other double reels which are still played today as double reels were transcribed by O'Neill's officers as double (e.g. the Woman of the House),
I'm considering the following things - with regard to the O'Neill era - and would appreciate your help or opinion:
1) the development of the reel form, I understand many started from the clan marches and had only one section which is even half the size of a single reel - well,when can we actually find the first examples of double reels? also, what about the scottish reels at the time(the turn of the century) - would someone be willing to check a Scottish bagpipe manuscript (I reckon that in Scottish bagpipe music every detail must be put down precisely) and tell if they are played double\single?
2) the reel as it was danced at the turn of the century, any information one could partake on the subject?
were the reels mostly danced as single reels or rather - double?
Thank you.
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by earnest
Re: O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
Are you using the terms "single" and "double" reel to mean that each part (presumably 8 bars) is not repeated or, in the second case, is repeated to give the familiar 32-bar tune?
There are those who would argue that a better use for the terms is to refer to the usual reel *rhythm* (the double) or a much less common rhythm, the "single reel".
See the interesting resources at:
http://www.irishtune.info/
and in particular, you might like to start reading at:
http://www.irishtune.info/rhythm/history.html
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
I read somewhere that the single reels (often transcribed as 4 bars repeated followed by 8 bars) are generally of greater antiquity than the type with 2 or more 8 bar sections each repeated, and should be treasured as such. However a lot of them were doubled up and became double reels for the purposes of step dancing (not something I know much about). Also confusingly a single reel is a term for a polka (I think) in some parts of Ireland.
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by RichardB
Re: O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
I thought the term single reel refers to reels only 16-bars long, where the 8-bar parts are played only once each, unlike
double reels where there are 32 bars (in your typical 2-part tune), but maybe Earnest is thinking of your latter definition.
If so, the question is a good one. Maybe it would be possible to source the answer from very early recordings, ie those made around the time O'Neill's 1850 was published (is that around 1904?) Maybe Patsy Tuohy in the early 1900's?
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
You can also analyze the melodic structure of reels, on average most true double reels, (A=8 / B=8 ~ AABB), have melodic structure that defines better as 8 measures, rather than being just a 4-bar phrase repeated twice, identical, to make 8. This is also how you can find single reels that have been stretched into double-duty... Also to remember, some single jigs existed previously as flings and their structure tends to have a second ending in the B-part. So, that type of 'single reel' ~ A=4 / B=4 & the second ending could be C=4, or b-c, where the first 2 measures are repeated from the B and the last 2 bars are the second ending ~ AABC = 16 measures, or AABb-c = 16 measures.
As 'dance music' you are wise to check out the dances the tunes were used for. They are similarly phrased and defined, by 32, 16, 8, 4 and 2 measure phrases, the parts, figures and moves... You will find that as things began to be codified, such as by the Gaelic League at the end of the 1800's, and later ‘An Coimisiún Le Rincí Gaelacha’ ~ you end up with their official publication of ceili dances, "30 Popular Figure Dances", and if you analyze the structure of these you'll find a number of dances that structurally call for double reels. If you want to trace this back further, then you would have to dig into the related traditions of 'Country Dance', including Playford, RSCDS (Royal Scottish Country Dance), English, American (Canada & the USA) ~ etc... You'll find 32 bar dances in those traditions, where 32 bars is the ideal tune length and definition. Many of the dances are what is called 'progressive', meaning they repeat as the dancers progress in one direction or the other. For example, you do the dance for 32 measures worth, then move on, usually at the end, to repeat it facing another couple, as for 'longways dances'. This can go on repeating for quite some time, as it used to do in the larger halls. Similar definitions exist for circle and square formation dances, and also for couple dances, including pattern waltzes like "The Pride of Erin", or earlier, "The Waltz Cotillion"...
Enough said, yes, it is dance music, so it would be wise to get familiar with the dance as both speak to each other and those demands help to shape the outcome, in the music and in the dance... It is a glorious symbiosis that sessions are too often bereft of...
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
On the Irish side, there are important tune collections to check out other than O'Neill's, including Roche's... There are tons of dance tomes worth checking and many of these are available online, for example the Library of Congress collection, but it doesn't end there...
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
In sessions, as I suspect it is mostly a side effect of that grist mill, the lack of familiarity with second endings lead to repeats, the consequence being that a lot of single reels (& highland flings) were eventually turned into and eventually taken for granted as double...
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by ceolachan
That's also what happens when the music is divorced from the dance... Those 16 measures and second endings defined and accompanied changes as they occured the dances they were originally mated to...
# Posted on February 10th 2007 by ceolachan