hello,
I have a great interest in the O'Neill collection of tunes and would like to discuss certain issues regarding the collection,
I wish to know if its the right place - at "the session" website - to discuss such matters?
thanks very much
Ditto that Grego ~ Krassen's rewriting of the O'Neill book is just weird... I must have missed that area of Sligo he professes to have worked his arrangements from... Maybe he had a bad needle or all the 78's he used weren't properly cleaned, guano tends to obliterate grooves and sense and make things come out peculiar ~ to Krassen some benefit of the doubt...
1) typos on just about every page (I'm referring to the "1001"), possibly arising out inaccurate transcription or memory ("was that an Fnat or an F# he played" - sort of thing);
2) key signatures don't always correlate with the key or mode the tune is actually in;
3) time signatures are sometimes inappropriate (which can lead to a tune being wrongly classified). For example, you won't find The Scholar in the Reels section because it's been transcribed in 2/4 with a lot of semiquavers (sixteenth notes) - no, I don't think it's a polka .
Initial conclusion: although O'Neill is an incredibly useful and invaluable reference source, it's got to be treated with a bit of thought supported by a fair amount of experience of ITM. Accordingly, it's not a source I'd advise a beginner to use until they've had a couple of years of regular playing and learning by ear.
"The Irish Fiddle Book" ~ Matt Cranitch
"Traditional Irish Tin Whistle Tutor" ~ Geraldin Cotter
"Dance Music of Ireland" ~ Matt Cunningham ( a nice variety of tunes and decent transcriptions )
I'd rather start with recommendations than going over the things I would warn against...
My two pence worth - Paul McNevin's "A Complete Guide to Learning the Irish Fiddle". Good explanation of technique (with photos), basic music theory, and 80-odd tunes (also on a CD). Overall, a fairly thorough approach.
I found it very useful in my first couple of years, and still refer to it.
Can anybody recommend good DVDs with a thorough approach to bowing and ornamentation, in the context of tunes? So many instructional videos (not just ITM) show just the basic tune played slow, but then when they play it up to speed, they throw in all the extras but don't tell you what they're doing.
Kind of the same deal with book/CD sets I've seen: A lot of them have just the basic melodies in the book, but there's a lot of ornamentation on the CD that you're left on your own to figure out.
Damn....my fiddle teacher is an O'Neill...and I thought this thread might be full of useful stuff to beat him up with...(lesson in 1/2 hour)......nothin' yet.
Steafan Hannigan & David Ledsam - "The Low Whistle Book",
has good transcriptions of tunes as well, however, I suppose its best to start off by listening to players who play slow and beautifully rather than to get the tune from a manuscript, or if its too difficult - to use a manuscript just for a general aid in finding out the notes which can be heard on the recording...
a very good recording to work with (doesnt matter which instrument) is by Breda Keville, its called "The Hop Down", another very good recording to have is by the meticulous piper Brian McNamara, its called "Fort of the Jewels" (brilliantly beautiful air by the way) the tunes are played in a relaxed tempo but with great attention to details and ornamentation.
also a very good software to have for learning tunes is the "Amazing slow downer" from RoniMusic, it can slow down tunes and change the keys of tunes or tune the off-key tinwhistle heard to fit your own.
Thought I'd add my twopence worth, Earnest , re O'Neill's; my fiddle teacher uses O'Neill's as a teaching aid BUT he always advises me to remember, that whilst what is transcribed gives you the basic "gist" of a tune, never forget that most of the tunes are from an oral tradition; i.e. probably passed down through several generations by ear, and sometimes as a result, O'Neill's transcriptions aren't always to his mind(my teachers) quite right; so sometimes we may be playing a reel and he'll say to me " that C should be flattened even though the time signature says it should be sharp"; so thats perhaps how you should look at O'Neills, more as a guide than gospel.
I found a good cd rom done by Cathal Hayden. he does ornaments and stuff on that. Also, I was recommended Breandan Breathnach's 5 volumes of tune books. They have really good versions of the tunes and they're no more expensive than other books, though they seem quite hard to get hold of. He also wrote 'Folk Music and Dances of Ireland' which is an interesting little book about history, theory and mythology of ITM, which has a slightly unfortunate habit of slipping into the Gaelic just as you're starting to get to grips with the point!
As is usual, but there's never any harm in reminding ourselves, it is about the ears and no printed collection, dots or ABC's, in hand or virtual, should ever be allowed to rule over what our ears and hearts tell us... ALWAYS ~ live first, meaning find someone who's music making you like and get some lessons... If you're skint, save up... Next ~ but only after 'live' experiences ~ recordings... Last, and really only as a memory aid or to see how it compares to what your ears hear, as sometimes the wax and other distractions can distort what we hear ~ other sources... Even then, it helps to have musical acquaintances, like from sessions and other activities, to keep up from being lead astray or deluded...
My favourite O'Neill collection, wouldn't it figure, is "Waifs and Strays", but I also like the Roche Collection...with all the reservations mentioned previously...
Obviously, the tunes on this site have been picked over by a learned company of pedants. Over the rest of the web, some ITM tunes are very, very unreliable and covered with errors.
O'Neils is the bible compared with some of the stuff you can find on the net.
Although a little controvertial nowadays, in its time, Bulmer & Sharpleys books did wonders in spreading the tradition.
I think you'll find that Flann O'Brien completely ignores this issue in "The Third Policeman". However his incarnation of de Selby, the philosopher, may have something to say about the reliability of O'Neill's.
I am told that, because he collected his tunes in Chicago and not at a coastal port of entry, a lot of American tunes that people picked up along the way got thrown in among the purely Irish tunes. Also, I have noticed that some of the tunes in the book have mutated somewhat in intervening years, or were not transcribed accurately, because I have found more "mending" is required when I bring a tune learned from O'Neills to the local session.
Grego, homeland security issues?. If you transcribe O'Neill very carefully into ABC and send the result to NSA for analysis I suspect you won't be around in sessions (or anywhere else, for that matter) for some considerable time.
Be seeing you!
The first thing to remember about O'Neill's, apart from any errors people can point out, is the date that he compiled this collection. As the music is fluid, not pickled in aspic, any tune you find in The Book may well have mutated considerably to get to the state it is heard in these days.
Nevertheless a prize reference. Not the Bible. Not God's unadulterated word. Just a useful book.
I'm curious about that too, but Earnest hasn't been back since he started this up in the air, promising us 'issues' and then not delivering? Maybe Earnest is Miles Krassen?
Here it is from Wikipedia: "The story of the Red Hand of Ulster reputedly dates to the arrival of Heremon, Heber and Ir - sons of King Milesius of Spain (Galicia), who were dispatched to conquer Ireland in 504 BC. One of them supposedly cut off his hand and tossed it ashore, that he might be the one to have first claim to the land."
I have volume 2 of Ceol Rince na Eireann and i've noticed that quite a lot of the tunes are wildly different from the way that they are played in sessions nowadays.
CRE and specifically vol 2 (which is the only volume using full notation of ornamentation) was intended to document specific players' versions.
Some concerns re O'Neill's books are dealt with at length in Caoimhin MacAodh's 'the Scribe' . His study of James O Neill, especially the key sig issue is dealt with nicely and puts the men's effort overall in a different light.
Guernsey Pete said what's closest to my view on O'Neill's.
The collection was first compiled over 150 years ago, so naturally the tunes have mutated a little over the years, that's in the nature of traditional music. That doesn't make the O'Neill's version "wrong". If you can play me an 1850's Chicago-based recording of a tune and demonstrate that it doesn't match O'Neill's, I'll believe he made transcription errors. Just because a tune is played as a reel today doesn't mean it wasn't played differently 150 years ago. Good tunes are still twisted to fit different dance rhythms.
Without this collection, a lot of tunes played in the 1850s would have been lost and forgotten forever. ITM was slowly dying up until the 50s (partly due to the efforts of the Catholic Church, and ironically partly due to great players like Michael Coleman making recordings that induced others to give up playing their instruments and dance to records instead). Then it enjoyed the major revival that gives us all so much pleasure today.
O'Neill's is a great resource, if you're familiar with the genre, to check out older versions of tunes, or dig out a tune that hasn't been played recently in your hearing and bring it back to life.
In England we are lucky to have tune collections from as far back as the 1650s (John Playford), through to John Clare in the 1850s, Lawrence Leadley (The Fiddler of Helperby) and Thomas Hardy of literary fame.
In the days before recordings were possible, many players noted down tunes to help them remember. The tradition was still aural, but players were not above compiling their own written collections. Playford, Clare, and O'Neill, were deliberately making collections for present and future generations to enjoy - others were just noting down their own personal favourites.
As for the book containing "American" tunes, not all "Irish" tunes started life in Ireland, many were picked up by Irishmen on their travels and brought back home. If a tune is a good tune and fits the genre, does it matter where it originated?
O'Neill's was a collection of tunes currently being played.
We're a lot better off with it than without it, warts and all.
O'Neill issues
O'Neill issues
hello,
I have a great interest in the O'Neill collection of tunes and would like to discuss certain issues regarding the collection,
I wish to know if its the right place - at "the session" website - to discuss such matters?
thanks very much
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by earnest
Re: O'Neill issues
you may begin in earnest
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by Kheelch
Re: O'Neill issues
No bad-mouthing the Chief, though. He might have been a relative.
Miles Krassen, on the other hand, is fair game.
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by grego
Re: O'Neill issues
O'Neill's issues forth out of instrument cases at our session. Someone always brings one.
Anyway, why not discuss The Book?
After all, we've done everything else.........
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: O'Neill issues
My political leanings do not allow me to like policemen, so we refuse to play anything out of his book, which perhaps explains our limited repetoire.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: O'Neill issues
Ditto that Grego ~ Krassen's rewriting of the O'Neill book is just weird... I must have missed that area of Sligo he professes to have worked his arrangements from... Maybe he had a bad needle or all the 78's he used weren't properly cleaned, guano tends to obliterate grooves and sense and make things come out peculiar ~ to Krassen some benefit of the doubt...
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
So, Earnest, where's you list of issues?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
I'll help Earnest out for starters:
1) typos on just about every page (I'm referring to the "1001"), possibly arising out inaccurate transcription or memory ("was that an Fnat or an F# he played" - sort of thing);
2) key signatures don't always correlate with the key or mode the tune is actually in;
3) time signatures are sometimes inappropriate (which can lead to a tune being wrongly classified). For example, you won't find The Scholar in the Reels section because it's been transcribed in 2/4 with a lot of semiquavers (sixteenth notes) - no, I don't think it's a polka
.
Initial conclusion: although O'Neill is an incredibly useful and invaluable reference source, it's got to be treated with a bit of thought supported by a fair amount of experience of ITM. Accordingly, it's not a source I'd advise a beginner to use until they've had a couple of years of regular playing and learning by ear.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: O'Neill issues
what written source would you advise a beginner to use befor they've had a couple of years of regular playing and learning by ear?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: O'Neill issues
Very well put for starters hound dog...
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
Irish ~ for starters ~
"The Irish Fiddle Book" ~ Matt Cranitch
"Traditional Irish Tin Whistle Tutor" ~ Geraldin Cotter
"Dance Music of Ireland" ~ Matt Cunningham ( a nice variety of tunes and decent transcriptions )
I'd rather start with recommendations than going over the things I would warn against...
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
"Whistle and Sing!" ~ bppls 1 & 2
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Oops! ~ my finger placement moved ~ books 1 & 2
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
I would add "The Complete Irish Fiddle" by Peter Cooper to the list of books to start with.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by crazy_fingerz
Re: O'Neill issues
"oops, my finger placement moved while I was typing" ho ho tee he he. Another one to add to the wider malaise
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: O'Neill issues
My two pence worth - Paul McNevin's "A Complete Guide to Learning the Irish Fiddle". Good explanation of technique (with photos), basic music theory, and 80-odd tunes (also on a CD). Overall, a fairly thorough approach.
I found it very useful in my first couple of years, and still refer to it.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: O'Neill issues
Can anybody recommend good DVDs with a thorough approach to bowing and ornamentation, in the context of tunes? So many instructional videos (not just ITM) show just the basic tune played slow, but then when they play it up to speed, they throw in all the extras but don't tell you what they're doing.
Kind of the same deal with book/CD sets I've seen: A lot of them have just the basic melodies in the book, but there's a lot of ornamentation on the CD that you're left on your own to figure out.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by carolsviolin
Re: O'Neill issues
I agree w/ Key- The Book should be discussed and criticized. We all should return to the cave, its our duty
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: O'Neill issues
Damn....my fiddle teacher is an O'Neill...and I thought this thread might be full of useful stuff to beat him up with...(lesson in 1/2 hour)......nothin' yet.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: O'Neill issues
Earnest by name , not by nature?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by zookman2
Re: O'Neill issues
Steafan Hannigan & David Ledsam - "The Low Whistle Book",
has good transcriptions of tunes as well, however, I suppose its best to start off by listening to players who play slow and beautifully rather than to get the tune from a manuscript, or if its too difficult - to use a manuscript just for a general aid in finding out the notes which can be heard on the recording...
a very good recording to work with (doesnt matter which instrument) is by Breda Keville, its called "The Hop Down", another very good recording to have is by the meticulous piper Brian McNamara, its called "Fort of the Jewels" (brilliantly beautiful air by the way) the tunes are played in a relaxed tempo but with great attention to details and ornamentation.
also a very good software to have for learning tunes is the "Amazing slow downer" from RoniMusic, it can slow down tunes and change the keys of tunes or tune the off-key tinwhistle heard to fit your own.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by earnest
Re: O'Neill issues
Are we discussing the facsimile edition or the Miles Krassen revised edition?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by dafydd
Re: O'Neill issues
I like this, 21 posts about shall I post?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by len
Re: O'Neill issues
If it is relevant, I have a very old leather bound book of O'Neill's tunes and I would be happy to look in it if it would be helpful to anyone.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: O'Neill issues
"they throw in all the extras but don't tell you what they're doing"
Ha ha, they do bettter than tell you, they show you.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: O'Neill issues
Thought I'd add my twopence worth, Earnest , re O'Neill's; my fiddle teacher uses O'Neill's as a teaching aid BUT he always advises me to remember, that whilst what is transcribed gives you the basic "gist" of a tune, never forget that most of the tunes are from an oral tradition; i.e. probably passed down through several generations by ear, and sometimes as a result, O'Neill's transcriptions aren't always to his mind(my teachers) quite right; so sometimes we may be playing a reel and he'll say to me " that C should be flattened even though the time signature says it should be sharp"; so thats perhaps how you should look at O'Neills, more as a guide than gospel.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by madame bonaparte
Re: O'Neill issues
I found a good cd rom done by Cathal Hayden. he does ornaments and stuff on that. Also, I was recommended Breandan Breathnach's 5 volumes of tune books. They have really good versions of the tunes and they're no more expensive than other books, though they seem quite hard to get hold of. He also wrote 'Folk Music and Dances of Ireland' which is an interesting little book about history, theory and mythology of ITM, which has a slightly unfortunate habit of slipping into the Gaelic just as you're starting to get to grips with the point!
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by oh fiddle it
Re: O'Neill issues
As is usual, but there's never any harm in reminding ourselves, it is about the ears and no printed collection, dots or ABC's, in hand or virtual, should ever be allowed to rule over what our ears and hearts tell us... ALWAYS ~ live first, meaning find someone who's music making you like and get some lessons... If you're skint, save up... Next ~ but only after 'live' experiences ~ recordings... Last, and really only as a memory aid or to see how it compares to what your ears hear, as sometimes the wax and other distractions can distort what we hear ~ other sources... Even then, it helps to have musical acquaintances, like from sessions and other activities, to keep up from being lead astray or deluded...
My favourite O'Neill collection, wouldn't it figure, is "Waifs and Strays", but I also like the Roche Collection...with all the reservations mentioned previously...
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
Obviously, the tunes on this site have been picked over by a learned company of pedants. Over the rest of the web, some ITM tunes are very, very unreliable and covered with errors.
O'Neils is the bible compared with some of the stuff you can find on the net.
Although a little controvertial nowadays, in its time, Bulmer & Sharpleys books did wonders in spreading the tradition.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: O'Neill issues
I think you'll find that Flann O'Brien completely ignores this issue in "The Third Policeman". However his incarnation of de Selby, the philosopher, may have something to say about the reliability of O'Neill's.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by maxF
Re: O'Neill issues
I am told that, because he collected his tunes in Chicago and not at a coastal port of entry, a lot of American tunes that people picked up along the way got thrown in among the purely Irish tunes. Also, I have noticed that some of the tunes in the book have mutated somewhat in intervening years, or were not transcribed accurately, because I have found more "mending" is required when I bring a tune learned from O'Neills to the local session.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: O'Neill issues
"Certain issues" - WHAT ARE THEY, PLEASE???? I've been afraid to consult my copy since this thread started...
Are they homeland security issues?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by grego
Re: O'Neill issues
Grego, homeland security issues?. If you transcribe O'Neill very carefully into ABC and send the result to NSA for analysis I suspect you won't be around in sessions (or anywhere else, for that matter) for some considerable time.
Be seeing you!
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: O'Neill issues
"Baltiorum" ~ "O’Neill's Music of Ireland", 1903, #1128
Key signature: Gmajor
Submitted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6773
Not by-the-book and by-the-book...
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
The first thing to remember about O'Neill's, apart from any errors people can point out, is the date that he compiled this collection. As the music is fluid, not pickled in aspic, any tune you find in The Book may well have mutated considerably to get to the state it is heard in these days.
Nevertheless a prize reference. Not the Bible. Not God's unadulterated word. Just a useful book.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: O'Neill issues
So, Earnest, what were the particular issues you wanted to discuss?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ragaman
Re: O'Neill issues
I'm curious about that too, but Earnest hasn't been back since he started this up in the air, promising us 'issues' and then not delivering? Maybe Earnest is Miles Krassen?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
Two maggots were fighting in dead earnest?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by Batlady
Re: O'Neill issues
I think you should consider The Importance of Being, Earnest.
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by maxF
Re: O'Neill issues
And one maggot stopped chomping for a momment to ask the other, "What is the importance of 'being'?"
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
Oh, well, if Earnest is gone, we might as well hijack his thread!
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: O'Neill issues
Ok. So what will we talk about now? ..............Oh, I know. What about sportswear?
http://www.oneills.ie/contactus/index.asp
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: O'Neill issues
The larger branch of the O'Neill family has the Red Hand (as in Ulster) as their family crest. Do y'all know the gruesome story of the Red Hand?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by grego
Re: O'Neill issues
Here it is from Wikipedia: "The story of the Red Hand of Ulster reputedly dates to the arrival of Heremon, Heber and Ir - sons of King Milesius of Spain (Galicia), who were dispatched to conquer Ireland in 504 BC. One of them supposedly cut off his hand and tossed it ashore, that he might be the one to have first claim to the land."
Now, isn't thaat interesting?
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by grego
Re: O'Neill issues
Another interesting O'Neill fact:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8600
# Posted on February 8th 2007 by grego
Re: O'Neill issues
Also try "Ceol Rince na Eireann" - any volume will do, as there are several.
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by brianc
Re: O'Neill issues
I have volume 2 of Ceol Rince na Eireann and i've noticed that quite a lot of the tunes are wildly different from the way that they are played in sessions nowadays.
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by dafydd
Re: O'Neill issues
CRE and specifically vol 2 (which is the only volume using full notation of ornamentation) was intended to document specific players' versions.
Some concerns re O'Neill's books are dealt with at length in Caoimhin MacAodh's 'the Scribe' . His study of James O Neill, especially the key sig issue is dealt with nicely and puts the men's effort overall in a different light.
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by kilfarboy
Discussion: O'Neill issues - the 'real?' reel form
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12614
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by earnest
It seems Earnie just couldn't deal with issues of fashion...
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: O'Neill issues
Guernsey Pete said what's closest to my view on O'Neill's.
The collection was first compiled over 150 years ago, so naturally the tunes have mutated a little over the years, that's in the nature of traditional music. That doesn't make the O'Neill's version "wrong". If you can play me an 1850's Chicago-based recording of a tune and demonstrate that it doesn't match O'Neill's, I'll believe he made transcription errors. Just because a tune is played as a reel today doesn't mean it wasn't played differently 150 years ago. Good tunes are still twisted to fit different dance rhythms.
Without this collection, a lot of tunes played in the 1850s would have been lost and forgotten forever. ITM was slowly dying up until the 50s (partly due to the efforts of the Catholic Church, and ironically partly due to great players like Michael Coleman making recordings that induced others to give up playing their instruments and dance to records instead). Then it enjoyed the major revival that gives us all so much pleasure today.
O'Neill's is a great resource, if you're familiar with the genre, to check out older versions of tunes, or dig out a tune that hasn't been played recently in your hearing and bring it back to life.
In England we are lucky to have tune collections from as far back as the 1650s (John Playford), through to John Clare in the 1850s, Lawrence Leadley (The Fiddler of Helperby) and Thomas Hardy of literary fame.
In the days before recordings were possible, many players noted down tunes to help them remember. The tradition was still aural, but players were not above compiling their own written collections. Playford, Clare, and O'Neill, were deliberately making collections for present and future generations to enjoy - others were just noting down their own personal favourites.
As for the book containing "American" tunes, not all "Irish" tunes started life in Ireland, many were picked up by Irishmen on their travels and brought back home. If a tune is a good tune and fits the genre, does it matter where it originated?
O'Neill's was a collection of tunes currently being played.
We're a lot better off with it than without it, warts and all.
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by Martin Milner
Re: O'Neill issues
Francis O Neill was born on Aug 28 1848 he must have started young compiling his collection 'over 150 years ago'.
Canon Goodman did his bit for the 19th century tunes .
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: O'Neill issues
"One of them supposedly cut off his hand and tossed it ashore, that he might be the one to have first claim to the land."
I bet he felt silly when they reminded him you had to be the first to set *foot* on land to claim it.
# Posted on February 9th 2007 by Bob himself