Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
(Editor: long post follows, the summary of which is: let's stop posting tunes that are not meant to be played in sessions.)
I'm sure that 10 years from now we will still be debating this, and we will probably still be debating this until the sun grows cold and the universe shuts down and we finally run out of electrons but i'd like to offer my own version of the same complaint other people have been expressing recently.
I believe that *the* best way to enjoy Irish music is participating in an open session, and i mean "meatspace", not "cyberspace" session. The kind where flutes drip, rosin flies from the fiddles, and the bodhrans... nevermind the bodhrans.
Anyway, sessions are great, but the learning curve is also steep. Before you can participate, you have to learn how to play an instrument, learn the Irish tradition of playing that instrument, and learn at least a dozen tunes by memory. Lots of stuff to learn. For the ones of us who were not born in Ireland, hard stuff to learn, few places where we can learn it. But once you're ready, the experience is, like Barry Foy says, the most fun you can have and still keep your clothes on.
That's where www.thesession.org comes in. Here's a "place" where even the shy can come, learn about the tradition, learn about sessions, and learn the repertory.
Or at least it used to be. These days, just about every other tune posted here is *not* something you will ever play in a session. I'm afraid some of the tunes posted here will cause you bodily harm if you attempt to play them in a session. These days, if i tell an aspiring novice about this site, i'll have to say "but don't look at the tunes part, the tunes there are not something you'll ever use in a session."
Shame on us. This is a great resource, and it's almost 100% an user-managed resource, and we're mis-managing it. I understand that there will always be noise, but when the ratio of noise versus usable tunes is greater than 50%, something is wrong.
That's what i wanted to say. Sorry for taking so much of your time, but i love this site, and i'm not happy to see it become irrelevant to the purpose it was created for: the sharing of session material, session experiences and session-related advice.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Hmm... I tend to agree with your general sentiments.
I have nothing against welsh, scottish, cape breton,new england whatever tunes but I do think they need to be balanced and remain very much in the minority.
How about, if you want to post an "unusual", non-session tune, you should first post 5 or 6 session tunes to balance it out?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I think it's fair. For starters, i think people should, in general, refrain from posting tunes until they become regular session goers. Unfortunately, the tunes section is very cool (hey Mom, look, i put music on the Internet!), and this attracts the fancy of the newcomers. Somebody (Will) said that you shouldn't post a tune unless you've learned it by ear and transcribed it yourself. This is also a good general rule. Don't post stuff out of a book unless someone else has requested it (and even then, maybe a personal email would be more appropriate).
These are just general common-sense rules, which can be broken occasionally without harm.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Bravo Glauber! My sentiments exactly! I'm just a beginner, but I'm working very hard at learning and playing ITM. It can get confusing when other genres of tunes are mixed in with the Irish dance tunes.
At our local session here, we have a lot of old-time/American tunes mixed into the session. Only a small handfull of folks start these American tunes. But there are several of us who now wait until these folks leave or finish playing and then we sit down to play our Irish trad tunes. It's like 2 different sessions in one night. We aren't trying to be rude, but we want to play Irish music! We live for the stuff so we are eager to play it.
The place where we have our session just started hosting an Old-time session on a different day. I'm hoping folks will take advantage of this and that our Irish session will become just Irish like it was meant to be. I'm hoping this will be the solution we've been looking for....
What if we had a section for just trad Irish tunes and a section for Misc. Celtic tunes? Just a thought.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Three cheers for Glauber for spelling it out! Glauber I agree with every word.
I'm reminded of a time in Miltown in the days when the Central Hotel had a little residents lounge at the back. A mighty session was in swing with Bobby Casey and all the old guard. During a lull in the session some guy took out a concertina and proceeded to give us a recital of English tunes. This went on for 15 or twenty minutes. Needless to say this was as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit and the session started to break up. Geoff Woof, the pipe maker from Australia was there and he was showing me a flute he had made in C. As his own pipes were in C and I was dying to try the flute we struck up a big set of reels at the first opportunity and kept it going for about 15 minutes. The concertina took the hint (not very subtle) and packed up.
Sometimes bluntness is the only way.
Yours,
A grumpy old git
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I can see your point but there are many Irish trad musiciens interested in foreign tunes ( including myself). Perhaps there are a minority but relatively speaking there are much less non- Irish tunes than Irish tunes.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Hey...being Cajun French, american, and new to learning irish music...I can't tell the dif. between what's ITM, scottish, etc. unless I'm told. I came here to learn ITM to play in sessions. I'd like to see it indicated in some way when a tune is traditional irish, trad. scottish, or something else so's I get it right. Otherwise, I'll have to start a discussion thread called "Is this tune ITM?" and ask about new tunes I find on here and am unfamiliar with.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Gee, this feels like the prequel to the discussion I started on how we post tunes....
I agree that the chance to post tunes here is what insurance agensts call an "attractive nuisance" to newcomers. And it's clear that some people are posting tunes without much personal grounding in the Irish music tradition. And some of us have less patience for that than others.
I wonder if part of the problem is that people come to this site for widely different reasons. Likely, there are lots of relative newcomers to Irish music looking to learn tunes and about sessions, etc. But there are also long-time players looking for a bit of craic, session info when traveling, and maybe a new (read: obscure) tune or two.
We're also dealing with people who play in Irish sessions that are imbedded in vastly different cultures.
So: I've never heard the Irish National Anthem played at a session (but someone once sang the Star Spangled Banner at one... yikes!), but I can't tell you whether that happens at sessions in other places. I've never heard much Welsh, strictly Scottish, Cape Breton, Old Timey, etc., played either--a smattering maybe, but usually by just one or two players and everyone else sits out. Now, I don't mean this in some elitist way, orto denegrate the music someone else plays, but it seems to me that if this *isn't* the norm where you play, then maybe you're not in a genuine Irish session. I've been to old timey and bluegrass jams, and someone tosses out a set of Irish reels, but I wouldn't try to change that circle over to Irish, or call it that.
I suspect some of us in the States are more sensitive to this issue than those in Ireland because we struggle to hang on to some shred of authenticity in a society that can't tell the difference between Old Joe Clark and John Joe Casey's. So we tend to run with blinders on to other genres of music, hoping they'll stay away from our local sessions. It's natural for that attitude to spill over onto this web site, and for some resentment to rear up when people post "other" tunes at a site reserved for Irish dance music. In general, I think most of us have been amazingly polite about this issue...perhaps too polite to get the point across.
I'll try to post more session tunes myself (but it's hard when I spend all my time on discussion threads... ;o), and we should caution people (you know who you are not to post tunes strictly from written sources. It's usually obvious when this is done, and it tends to shy me away from the tune right off. (And yes, the irony of discrediting written sources for posting tunes in written form *does* occur to me .
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
You know, a lot of us newcomers to thesession.org don't post tunes because it's attractive to do so, nor, as glauber suggests, so we can say "Hey, look, mom!"
I personally posted a handful of tunes (ones that I play, not pulled out of a book, by the way) because I felt a bit guilty about taking so much without giving. I've downloaded a ton of music from here and don't like to feel like a greedy, noncontributing parasite.
Another way of discouraging contributions by the unwashed masses, if that's the goal here, is maybe to assure people that they are welcome to eat all they want to, even if they didn't bring a dish to pass.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Phew, chill. Point taken, I stopped posting tunes a while back. I apologize - I misunderstood the purpose of this website from the beginning. I thought it was for sessions and the music played at sessions, and could be used as a valuable international resource for traditional session music to be passed on to other people. I think people who try to separate tunes according to country are making a mistake, given that a lot of the reels and hornpipes you think are Irish are from Scotland with a name change (e.g. Boyne Hunt = Perth Hunt [composd by Magdalina Stirling of Ardoch c1788 if authenticity's what you want], Graf Spee is derived from Grand Spey etc), and some of the jigs and hornpipes are English. The best bands always borrow tunes and dance forms from all over the place. Planxty's Bulgarian tunes in weird timing spring to mind. Why can't people lighten up and enjoy tunes for their own sake?
Dow
Just as an addition to what I said: I think that people would like to think that people play the same bundle of Irish tunes everywhere, in any session around the world. This just isn't so, sorry folks. These tunes will get you round Ireland, and a few New World places like the US and Australia where everyone wants to be Irish. The reality is that sessions around the world are extremely diverse, and a couple of hundred "standard" Irish tunes can act as a sort of lingua franca for everyone. But they're not the be all end all.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Sorry, cuchulain, it wasn't aimed at you. See you said it yourself, you posted "a handful" of tunes "that you play". That's all i'm asking, don't post a whole book of tunes that aren't going to be played in sessions.
I also started to post tunes and recordings because i wanted to start contributing instead of just taking. I did post a couple of tunes that i shouldn't have posted, and i cringe when i read some of my earliest comments in the recordings that i posted. But hey, i'm learning. (I wish i could erase some of the more stoopid things that i posted, though. In this aspect, thesession is like real life.)
Dow, i think you understood the purpose of the site. It is, as you say, "for sessions and the music played at sessions [...] as a valuable international resource for traditional session music to be passed on to other people."
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I'm a bit like Dow. At first I thought it was a site for all sessions.
It became apparent quite quickly that it was ITM so now I tend to be quiet and learn. But as Dow also says so much of the music is common to both. The maid behind the Bar - ITM or the Barmaid - Scottish. 9/8 pipe marches or Slip Jigs? Highlands?
How do you decide. Was Paddy's trip to Scotland written when he was there or when he got back?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Jeremy,
By way of suggestion... maybe you could add a few words of direction in the tune "submit" page. Not everybody that submits tunes will read this or other threads.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
This looks like it's going to be a continuing point of contention for people. If the general mood is against contamination of the purity of the Irish tradition by tunes from across a body of water to the east or west, then maybe it might be an idea to separate this site into "ITM" and "Other-Tunes-From-Elsewhere-That-You-Must-Never-Play-At-A-Session-Or-You-Will-Not-Be-Welcome".
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Okay. STOP. Stop already. Jeremy has already said it. If you post tunes, then post at least three or four Irish tunes or at least tunes that are common to Irish sessions, to every tune you post that comes from another tradition. There's no need to argue about it. STOP. Both are welcome, but tunes that are common to your session (whether Irish or not) are preferred to tunes that can be considered "foreign". Fer cat's sake.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Mark (Dow) and Dave, we've been through this on other threads, and NO ONE is arguing where the tune's originated from. That's *not* the point.
The question is, do the tunes you (or anybody) want to post fit in the broadly, open-mindedly framed sense of the Irish dance music tradition Jeremy established this site for, and are they played at sessions? Do *you* play--in session with other Irish-trad minded players--the tunes you post?
Yeah, at my local session we do the odd "foreign" tune, and once a month or so, someone spins out some old timey thing. But that's reaching beyond the Irish trad repertoire--just for a moment--because someon'es got a bug in their ear to play that tune. It's accepted, but not energetically encouraged. And too much of it wouldn't be tolerated. There's a local "jam" on another night of the week for people who want to play other stuff. Great.
Frankly, some of us just want people to have an inkling of what *does* get played at Irish sessions (probably mostly those sessions more on the trad end of the spectrum, too) before they post tunes here. Trevor's recent post of Fisher's Hornpipe but in G and with a Welsh name and setting is a good example. I doubt Fisher's is a household tune at Irish sessions these days, but it doesn't hurt to know it either. On the other hand, playing Trevor's setting, at least in the US and Ireland isn't likely to fly too well at 90 percent of the sessions. In fact, this welsh setting is not far off from Daffyd's post of the Irish Waterman (nee Washerwoman) for inappropriateness here. Especially when it'd done on the heels of other non session tunes, and lacking awareness that it might even be an odd setting of an otherwise recognizable tune.
Fact is, there is a substantial body of tunes that get played at Irish sessions that fall well within the tradition, and that we haven't touched yet. So why the rush to post all this (at best) fringe stuff? And if the world needs a place to post Welsh tunes, set it up. Build it and they will come. And then hope that the uninformed masses don't inundate it with Irish tunes.....
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Jeremy does say under the comments section that you can post what you like or don't like about this tune. If a tune sucks & doesn't really belong, I think we should have less reservations about flaming the hell out of it. Whenever this topic comes up all the dingbats who believe that if it's played at a session it's accepted into the tradition, that's not the way it works. There are undrawn lines that once crossed will end a session on the spot.
And you'll notice some of us getting bristly about the collars when you imply that we're intolerant of other musical forms because many of us do regularly play lots of other types of music (I play bluegrass, rock, and blues)--but we refrain from doing it at Irish sessions or on this site.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
WWWOOOOOOSSSSHHHHH....(sound of an argument deflating). Shucks...what fun is that?
JUST KIDDING!
I think we do accept, respect, and encourage a lot of diversity here--certainly of opinions and even of tunes. That's why we struggle with it openly like this--none of us wants to dictate or live by an encyclopedia of rules. But there are boundaries. That's how you know you're at thesession.org, and not tradlagerphonesociety.org (sorry glauber or moraviannoseflute.gov (a state-sponsored site) or publictoetapping.com (the British session site).
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
All the jokes I know would break Jeremy's rule of "be civil".
If you want a laugh, wait for the next person to post a tune and watch it get ripped to pieces in the comments section
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
From a beginer, who doesn't know her arse from her elbow, could somebody please make a "Top Ten Session Tunes," so as I know what to learn!
(Please!)
Becky
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I've been a user since the earlier days I use my computer as a "music stand" when learning tunes through music. After being on the receiving end for a couple of years both in reading music and following discussions I decided to try out posting a tune that was still on my learning list.
At this point there was no specific advice in the past discussions (I searched on posting ethiquettes and ABC pasting) , but the next day there was a big discussion (one could get paranoid from less...
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There is a vast amount of tunes out there and one of the thrills of going to a session is to come home with an ambition to learn more tunes.
The problem as I see it is how to distinguish the peculiar from the common ground .I remember sending a mail to Jeremy expressing concerns when he changed the-session from his digestable once-per-week-tune-quality-checked-by-Jeremy-in-person to eat-as-much-as-you-can-free-for-all-to-post system.
I think the rumours of the coming death is greatly exaggerated; there are several possible ways of dealing with the problem:
A preventive way would be to make the very first mailing go through some screening process with the possibility for moderators to give some sort of feedback to the accidental contributor. This would somehow restrict the opennes of session.
Maybe a better way would be "post postum" -after the *damage* has been done:
- in addition to the comment section the tunes could be assosiated with an attribute describing to what degree this tune belongs to the "basic repertoire"
- the tunes could be rated in a democratic fashion ensuring that tunes that get a certain score get into the "common ground"
- alternatively a selected few / a group / moderator could classify and rate which tunes should belong in the common ground / basic repertoire.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Zina, you beat me to it. I couldn't find the link to that "Common Session Tunes" thread to save my life.
Haildor, I suspect Jeremy already filters tunes, though perhaps he'll use a finer mesh after all of this hullabaloo. I kinda like the idea of distinguishing "common" session tunes from the fringe ones. But even that could be tricky, both technically and in deciding which were really "fringe" tunes.
Becky, I love it when someone (and it happens here about every three months) asks "what ten tunes should I learn first?" And the answer inevitably is the top 200-300 of them...
Point being that 10 tunes are a great start, but they won't carry you very far into the average session. Just be patient and persistent and obsessive about learning tunes. You'll get there, one tune at a time, just like everybody else. And enjoy the ride!
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
What sort of novice would build his repetory by trolling through a tune archive? I'm a novice, and what I'm trying to learn is based on what I'm hearing at my sessions. I may go look up a tune to get the notes, but I'm certainly not randomly picking tunes from this (or any other) archive. In fact, I usually only look to see if there are any interesting notes on the tunes I'm learning.
It would be interesting to see some statistics on how often the tunes are referenced and how there used. One thing that occurs to me is that tunes that are rarely or never referenced could be "retired." That would probably go a long way towards thinning out inappropriate tunes.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I think a novice might want to learn tunes from an archive where they can get information on each tune being learnt so that a) they can remember them more easily, and b) they have an idea how their tune would be received at a session. After reading some of the discussions of late, I would definitely make sure I knew "acceptable" tunes before I even set foot in a session, especially those that conform to US standards - then you know you're getting quality [ ]. Otherwise you'd run the risk of playing a tune that people are sick of like the Kesh, or playing what might be considered a "fringe" tune. Somewhere in the middle there are some tunes that are acceptable even to the glowering "tune police", who just might do something really nasty to you if you dare to contaminate. Maybe there should be bouncers at the door who would "screen" people for their repertoires and intentions before they even enter. Everyone would have to carry around a computerized "tunes ID card" with a special chip and barcode. Tune offenders could be given points on their card like a driving licence! Anyone who wants to start a set would need to be specially registered as "safe", and a vote taken whereby tunes may be played only after a proposal is seconded and voted for by the majority of players present. New tunes learnt would only be added to a player's card memory chip if delegated tune police accept that player's version as "authentic" and "standard".
Anyway I reckon if you're a novice you should take up an easy instrument like a guitar and become a backer. It's great, you don't have to bother learning any of the tunes, and you can sometimes get free drinks just by sitting there with your guitar. You can pretty much get by just playing a chord of G or D. As long as you play loud and confidently enough, people will think you've been playing for years! Sometimes you need A minor and E minor too, but you don't have to bother with any of that either really.
Sorry I'm stirring again...
I just know that next time I see bb I'm going to need protective armour
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Ah, Mark, I'm starting to wonder if you're one of these lads who plays Waltzing Matilda and Gallipoli at sessions, and then wonders why all the good Irish trad players don't come to that pub anymore....
Seriously though, that's how "session police" work--they get tired of hearing tunes that don't quite fit, and they leave. They start a session somewhere else. Sooner than later, the original place has a free-for-all of lagerphones and didges, where any tune goes. Which sad to say is what's been happening here at the session.org lately. Some really well-informed, talented musicians who used to frequent this site rarely post here anymore. They're tired of being dragged into senseless arguments or being labeled as arrogant or tyrranical or worse just because they have a passion for Irish trad music. And I'm sad to see them go.
If people log on here hoping to find the tunes that make the rounds at Irish sessions, and insights about playing that music, and instead they have to wade through all this rhetoric and dusty manuscript tunes, they'll wonder why we all bother. Lately, I've been wondering the same thing.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Just for the record, I'm with Scott. I really only use the tunes section if I'm having trouble figuring a tune out and don't have it in any of my books. That's how I found this site in the first place. I do like looking up the comments of tunes I know and am working on, to see what others have to say about them. That part is really interesting.
To anyone who says what tunes should I learn first--I suggest going to your local session and bring a tape recorder. A few times at least. Unless of course someone starts a long set of Welsh tunes--then hit the pause button. Just kidding. I think...
Hey Will, that's a good analogy how this session is losing regulars because of too many tunes that don't fit. Just like a real session. A session I used to go to regularly I have just about given up on, because of too many R.E.M. songs and the like. Yuck. I go to a session to learn about Irish music. Same for why I come to the site. To discuss and learn with those who share my passion.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Its true - I'm one of those people that would leave a session if it was even half as annoying as the stuff that has been put on here lately. Read the front page of this site lads - it says its a site where "Traditional Irish Dance Music" can be passed on blah blah blah. Dow knows what I am like - I dont think it is a bad thing to want to keep this site mainly Irish. If you like cajun, bluegrass, Welsh or any of the others - that is fabulous - good on you for it, go start a bluegrass site. Ive said it before and I'll say it again, if you dont want to play irish music - dont go to an Irish session, If you want to play everything - go to a jam session. Is that sooooo hard??? Stop posting these irritating tunes - please - I am begging - who in their right mind would want to bloody learn the irish national anthem -godsakes - I think I'll go post "Skippy the bush Kangaroo"!
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Yes, Dow, and bb has strict instructions to give you a memorable bruise on my behalf. *grin* So long as you know what you're in for when you mouth off like that... hehehe.
Interestingly, no one ever calls anyone a tune nazi when they are saying something that they happen to agree with -- sort of like, there's no such thing as a humble opinion... Hmmm. Jeremy, doess the calling of "tune nazi" fall under the Nazi Principle?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Zina, you invoked the Nazi principle on purpose! With full malice and aforethought! Knowing Jeremy will put a lock on further posting in this thread (how long can I go on and get away with it? Well, let's see...I thought I'd post the Canadian national anthem, the version they sung when the Canadian snowboarder had his medal taken away after they caught him celebrating that night with a funny cigarette, it starts, "Oh Cannabis.")
bb, is there some other kind of kangaroo? I mean, don't they all live in the bush?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Dow, it's nothing of the sort, and i think you know it. Many sessions welcome novices. They have to, or they'd die, right? But if the novice wants to play, say, Hootie and The Blowfish repertory, they will let him know that it's the wrong kind of music. That's what's been happening here for a long time, but neither Hootie nor the Blowfish are paying any attention.
The next phase is, as Will says, when the people with new ideas crowd out the old timers, and then it becomes a Hootie and the Blowfish session, instead of an Irish session. The newcomers are happy with it like this, and the old timers (hopefully) go play somewhere else.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Yeah bb GOOD ON YA MATE! Why haven't you posted Waltzing Matilda yet? By the way, I never called anyone a "tune nazi", certainly not bb - who would have thought it!? I actually think that the best thing would be to delete from the database any tune that has suspect origins, so that the site can be for "Traditional Irish Dance Music" in its purest form. Isn't "Jenny's Chickens" related to some other weirdo Scottish reel - "Sleepy Maggie"? That's got to go. There's something funny about "The Merry Blacksmith" I've always thought... errr, "Big John McNeill" for sure.... I reckon "Lady Ann Montgomery" has a Scottish sounding name - that's enough to justify deleting it. I was always suspicious of "Drowsy Maggie" also. And what about "The Flowers Of Edinburgh"? Now that *has* to go. Its name is even offensive. And as for "Miss McLeod's", well, the Scottish version is even in totally the wrong key and the parts are switched round - *and* the name's wrong. It's just all wrong. Anyway the pure Irish version has Scottish connections so it must also be eliminated out of principle.
Okay, I think it's time to make a stand on Scottish tunes. We must all turn our backs or flounce out of the room when we hear one played or even spoken of, especially by a novice - they'll get the hint eventually. I mean, no offense to the Scots - they are after all quaint old-fashioned people of the hills who speak a strange tongue - think of Braveheart! And yea' they have their tunes, but they're just not Irish.
Quell minority interests, as they will eventually overwhelm the purity of the Irish tradition. No other Celts will do. LONG LIVE IRISH MUSIC! DESTROY CONTAMINATING INFLUENCES!
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I'd just like to point something out here, seeing as many people seem think that I should be the one doing something to "fix" the site.
If you don't like the kind of tunes being posted, you can always redress the balance yourself.
Sure, I can put a stop to people posting inappropriate tunes but that won't make appropriate tunes suddenly spring out of the ether.
If you think that there should be more Irish jigs and reels being submitted, then quit complaining about it and just do it.
For instance: Glauber, the last time you submitted a tune was two months ago. If you think the quality has deteriorated since then, then perhaps part of the reason for that is because you're not submitting any tunes. In light of that, I find it a bit rich that would point novices to the site but tell them that the tunes section isn't much good.
So (and this is addressed to all of you, not just Glauber), if you want to make a change, don't wait around for somebody else to take charge. Just do it.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Well, this has been fun. The real problem is not the origin of tunes, since some go so far back they could have gone round the Irish Sea four or five times before some Englishman wrote down the “definitive” version from a place he happened to be in and claimed it as the point of origin. Tunes have gone in and out of fashion over the years. There are tunes that are so common nobody plays them any more ( anybody want to write the Oxymoronic Reel?). I know of a session where the players role their eyes if you play a tune that has been played more than twice in the history of Western Civilzation. Which brings us to new tunes. Can an American of Spanish origin living in Rhode Island compose an Irish traditional tune? Where do the guys( please read this as an all inclusive genderless term) from Donegal fit in? Their music is definitely Irish, but is very heavily influenced by traffic, legal and otherwise, with the Scots who started out as Irishman in the first place. And do we deprive all those folks in Cork and Kerry of their polkas since that was a popular European form introduced in the 1840’s and 50’s?
It would be nearly impossible to come up with list of tunes so common they are found at all sessions since many beginner’s tunes fall out of favor with advanced players just from the sheer repetition until they become so common nobody plays them any more and are resurrected 25 years later. No, I think the basic problem we suffer from here at the session.org is that we can’t hear each other. We can’t tell the bluegrass guy that, no, you can’t just make up something in the same key if you don’t know the tune or re-tune your 5-string banjo in the middle of a set of tunes. We can’t sit politely through some Morris Dance tunes and then, without comment, strike up a set of slip jigs. All tunes are potentially Irish tunes until we can hear that they aren’t. I play in a Ceili band because the dancing, for me, rounds out the meaning of Irish dance music. Some session players never see a dancer and think the music is just jigs and reels played a fast as possible. I never seen a discussion of the playing of airs and their relation to sean-nos singing which is commonly held to be the basis of all Irish music. So before we start culling tunes from the archives and banning tunes because we might not find them useful in our own “meatspace” sessions let’s address some of the questions surrounding the the idea that even after centuries of outside influence, emigration, and return there is still an essential Irishness that is recognizible, not from what tune is played, but from how that tune sounds when it is played.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Zina just in case you thought my last response was inappropriate I was talking to Glauber, but his words seem to have been erased by Jeremy...
I'm going to shut up at this stage. I find the whole range of attitudes towards this topic really interesting, but sometimes it gets a bit silly, and that's when I start winding people up for fun and end up offending people. I'm off to don my crash helmet in readiness for the next time I see bb.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I'm still being quiet but now I'm learning how to argue in Irish as well as lots of nice stuff about music and techniques.
Is there a cross relationship between Irish arguing and Scottish arguing and has there been any input from the English or Welsh?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Being a card-carrying "tune-nazi", when the learners to intermediates have played too much morris, I launch into a long Irish set for the experts to crack on with.
On the other hand, if we have had too much "Danny Boy" or Country and Western, I put a stop to this "World Music", and resurect some Northumbrian hornpipes.
The truth is, like sessions, this site should contain Irish tunes .... most of the time.
Its archiving time, Editor!.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Several tunes-nay hundreds!! are very popular in different sessions but are not universal. It could be argued that these tunes along with some lesser known ones should become more universally popular. Also, within each tradition, tunes from other cultures have always been adopted and absorbed.
Perhaps there could be a separate section for new/unusual tunes and another for the standard session repertoire or as already suggested, information re the popularity of these tunes given within the comments section so that people can make up their own minds.
In an effort to achieve balance, I have posted "The Sash" to the session tunes as well.
I play this regularly in session along with Merry Ploughboy, Roddy McCauley, Star of County Down, Kelly from Kilane, Dublin In The Green etc. firstly, because they are great marching tunes, and secondly, because there is only one Irishman there - no-one else knows any of the words so everyone likes them and joins in.
Leaving politics out of it, there is nothing wrong with the "soldiers tale" as a march, but you have to jazz it up a bit so it is unsingable.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I just want to let you know, "The Broken Pledge," "Boy of Ballisodare," and "Killavil Reel (Mich Finn's) are not posted here yet. Look through the recording section, you will find there are many, many, so-called traditional Irish tunes to be submitted. thesession.org cannot be dead now.
I thought long and hard about this discussion while my dog was walking me this morning, and i concluded that i shouldn't have started this in the first place. No matter how useful this site has been to me, it was still wrong for me to try to impose my ideas on how it should be used. It's okay for the site to evolve, and to show that i understand it, i'll post some good tunes that are outside the Irish music session tradition, later when i have some time.
So my apologies to all, especially to Trevor and Dow.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Geez, folks I'm getting the feeling I just wasted a perfectly good rant. No takers on any any of the points raised? This is one of those areas where the discusssion can sharpenen our awareness of what it is we're doing without providing a definitive answer. Its a subject where the guy who knows the truth is most definitely wrong. And, Glauber, why sorry? This goes to root of thing. Thanks for starting it.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I don't know whether any of you saw it before the comment was pulled by our esteemed Webmaster, but Brad said his goodbyes, based on his irritation at what the Sessions has become.
Personally, I'm having a great deal of troube seeing the reason for the depths of emotion involved in this issue. If I were in a so-called meatspace session that got overrun by non-trad players, I could see why I might become irritated, because those players essentially have ruined my weekly, regular event. But this isn't real time. It's session-like, but it isn't a session. If I don't like anything I see here, I don't have to get up and walk out, because there's really no one here. It's a lot more like channel-surfing on TV than it is a session. If I'm browsing and find nothing of interest, I can go away and come back another time. Why get all mad about it?
Some people say we're leaving a legacy that'll mislead the beginners, but seriously, what beginner is going to mistake the Irish national anthem for a session tune? What beginner is going to mistake a clearly labelled Welsh tune for an Irish session tune? And the rest of the visitors can do what they're probably already doing: They take a look, shrug and say, "Well, nothing but garbage on at that moment," and they go on to something else.
It is a little silly that 90 percent of the recent postings aren't "pure" Irish, but to paraphrase Jeremy: Don't get mad, get even. Post more and more Irish stuff. If this IS like a TV program, it's a TV program in which we have some control over what is put over the air. Censorship is only one half of the equation. Posting better stuff is the other half.
Changing the subject slightly - maybe it should be a seperate string - but does anyone else - ie from other parts of the planet - have alternative names for tunes, such as
The Kid on the Mountain Bike,
My Darling's a Sheep,
and so on....this was a craze amongst traditional players here in London a few years ago.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Cuch, I can understand Brad's irritation and in fact share it. This has been something approaching a true session for many of us who have been around since the beginning. We have treated it as such and cared about it as such and supported it as such. And you'd be surprised at the beginners who would indeed be mislead by things like even clearly labelled Welsh tunes -- I see things like this every week, both at the session I run and sessions I have played at.
I have watched players, players that span from experienced with good reputation to outright beginners with no background, come and go here. I've watched some go that I have regretted losing and some go that I haven't regretted at all. I expect that I shall go as well, along with some of the other original members. That's what a session is like as they change and evolve. I imagine in a while that this place will have totally different names that are the most vocal posters than what exists now. Whatever. I find it sad, but that's life. Hopefully those who will take the time to explore the old threads will find some of the information we've left behind us helpful.
Some of us have cared very much about the music and the places where we practise and work on that music, and have included this virtual place among them. Just because you're not one of them and don't understand the viewpoint doesn't mean that the way we've treated this session isn't valid.
Unfortunately, as more and more players share your "it's session-like, but it isn't a session" attitude, I expect that what has made this a wonderful resource will gradually cause The Session to, well, die a slow death. Sad.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Hmmm, I feel kind of humbled after glauber's apology and cuchulain's post as well. I guess if Jeremy has no problem with Welsh, etc. tunes, then who are we to argue about it? It's his baby after all. I also agree that this site is not leaving a huge impression or legacy on Irish Traditional music. It's just a buch of us obsessives chatting and having fun. I guess we would be best off if we kept it that way--fun.
Hey Zina, looks like we are posting at the same time. How do we stay civil and have fun and work out these differences, too? I kind of look up to you and Will as the big sister and big brother of the session.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Perhaps there should be no 'Discussions' section at all. The old axiom says that 'opinions are best kept to themselves'. I come here mostly for the tunes and the tunes alone. Brad now knows what it feels like to be on the other end. If some people leave, oh well. The Session's life is not based on one or two people. The Session will continue until the creator chooses to shut it down. The Session will go on.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
LOL -- what, are you calling me old? *grin* I suppose if being mouthy is a definition of a big sister, well then, I would qualify -- so my younger sisters would say, at any rate. So I guess right now I'll be mouthy about your question, Andee.
Well, I'd say that staying civil when talking about things you care about a lot takes stepping aside from your feelings and examining what your post will look like to someone who disagrees with you, which is much easier said than done. I've had my own share of hissy fits here, as you may have noted! So my comments are going to be the ideal, which I can't always reach myself, mind.
Methods for coping with the urge to rant at a deserving someone have ranged from waiting 24 hours before posting to writing your first reaction down in a word processing program and then throwing it away and starting over again.
Not including personal comments (which includes slurring a country of origin in a wide-ranging fling) is a good idea. Adding disclaimers that this is only your personal opinion is a good idea. If you find yourself applying a label of any kind in reference to someone, that's a red flag. As Jeremy said, if you would not like to be on the receiving end of a comment, don't post it.
As Jeremy also said, we each have personal responsibility for our posts. That is part of the reason why I always sign my posts and why I changed, fairly early on, my nickname to my actual name. I would hope that anything I post here is something I would say to someone's face. I expect my posts to be things that add to or detract from my reputation in what is, after all, a very small community globally.
We can disagree with others publically. We can even be quite sharp with each other. But the other person on the other end of that Internet connection deserves consideration as a person with their own opinions. If we disagree with those opinions, well then, fine, go ahead and say so. Just do so in a way that respects that the other person has a right to their stupid opinion. *grin*
By the by, there's a point at which trying to wind someone up (ahem -- *grin*) actively doesn't help matters. If someone feels so very strongly about something that they cannot stay civil or seem to be going past what you might consider the norm, it's worth noting that the subject should probably be dropped with a "let's just agree to disagree". When I was a kid and my sisters and I were running around playing and the play escalated past a certain point, my dad, at one point or another, would warn us to calm down a bit, saying, "kids, somebody's about to get hurt." (And he didn't mean by him.) Son of a gun, he was always right. Now that I'm a "grown-up", I know how he knew, but back then, we thought it was this amazing thing he could do.
My dad would have said that somewhere about, oh, halfway through this thread.
Finally, none of us are going to change someone else's mind. If their mind is made up, it's made up. The only thing you can do is throw out your own viewpoint and see if maybe they'll get something from it.
Is that enough mouthiness for the day? I think so. You probably do too, by now.
Ah Aiki -- then you're missing out on a great deal of what makes Irish trad, Irish trad. I hope that in your online life you get more out of your sessions than that!
By the way, Brad is more than capable of taking the heat in the kitchen. Look through some of the back threads for proof of that. We go back a long ways, and we shall go forward a long ways.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Jeremy has provided an awesome site for us. In my mind it is a masterpiece. When you combine that with all of you it makes the site addicting.
As for the music - I still get more than I can keep up with. I aim for the tunes that inspire the hell out of me. For instance, recent postings of the Beauty Spot and Paddy's trip to Scotland are on my learning list now. I have learned some of the very best tunes off of this site. It's like a candy shop where I can hear a great tune off a CD and find it right here many times. When I hear a great session tune, I can find it here 8 out of ten times. I LOVE that.
I am also concerned about the beginners who might take every tune in this collection and believe that it is Irish traditional. As someone suggested - If we let them know that it is American or such they might move on.
It's funny - I would say that this site is near 100% perfect for me even though it caters to thousands and thousands of people. That’s amazing. I have learned many things that I might never have learned by attending sessions for the rest of my life. I can tolerate the few things that I disagree with because I get so much more out it than I can ever put it. I learn from the diverse opinions as well. You all have been my teachers since I started at the session. Thanks for that.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Thanks Zina, loved your post--very level headed, fair, and to the point. Not mouthy at all.
Mark--I ditto what you say and Peace as well
Oh, and Zina--if you are older than me, I'm sure it's not by much!! I used to sign my posts in the very beginning, but I soon realized that my name comes up after each one anyway--and it's my real name, too.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I think it's strange to decry the demise of the clubbiness that the pioneers of this site have always enjoyed in the same thread that we shout "Please stop!" to the newcomer that dares suggest he has been made to feel less than welcome here.
In any case, I in no way am advocating a cavalier attitude toward the Session just because I think it is session-like but not a real session. If a person comes to your real session, you can hassle him into leaving, and then, presumably, he will take his offense with him. Here, if someone posts an inappropriate tune, it remains until Jeremy excises it, and it doesn't matter how much you denounce the person who posted it. It's kind of an important distinction.
To me, the analogy works like this: if someone lets their dog defecate on the sidewalk, I should either step over it or take the time to clean it up. That doesn't mean the person should let their dog do it, but my whining about it or refusing to use the sidewalk ever again is just sort of the wrong way to go, since it doesn't solve anything. That's all I'm trying to say.
I don't and never did want to supplant the veterans of this site. I agree with Zina -- that would be sad. How do we collectively clean up or step around this pile on the sidewalk? Or should we newbies just get off the sidewalk?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
LOL -- What's so strange about that, Cuch? Makes perfect sense to me...
Let's face it -- there IS a clubbiness to Irish trad music and the usual session. Either you know what you're doing in order to be accepted as part of that club, or you're willing to learn in order to become part of that club, or you decide you want to change the club over in your own image. Naturally you're going to get pushback from the members of the club if you choose the latter path.
And of course some of the club members are going to bail if the club isn't what they want to hang out with any longer.
And of course sooner or later people are going to look around and say, wow, what happened, this session is so different than it used to be?
Better, worse...that's a point of view. We make up our collective minds what The Session is going to be, the general tenor of the thing, the guideposts by which we'll steer our direction. Jeremy has his guidelines, and good ones they are, but whether this is going to be a repository for tunes outside the tradition is, as you say, an important distinction for a many people who very much care about the tradition.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
But unlike a real session, if you veterans keep doing what you're doing, you get to keep doing what you're doing. Nothing needs to stop that, unless you yourselves decide to stop. If you and other veterans hold a session for Irish music and I come with a heavily amplified noseflute, I can take over, spoil everything, dominate until you collectively throw my butt out the door. But here, bad posts by non-veterans don't undo your good work unless you stop doing your good work. All I'm saying is, keep doing what you're doing. Brad doesn't need to walk off in a huff. He should keep posting -- threads, tunes, sessions, recordings -- and only respond to or elaborate upon the flawless and lovely stuff that you veterans keep churning out. It's like how the adults keep up their adult-like conversations at family gatherings, even though the kids are chattering and chasing each other through the room.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I haven't been posting long. I don't post often. Thats because I have nothing to match the experience on this site. There are many , well a few, sites on the internet with good collections of traditional tunes, in various formats.
The special thing about this site is the exchange of opinions, I would think based on experience, about the history, the styles, the ornament, the suitability of tunes, ettiquette, the mechanics of playing and much more.
It is this community that is valuable, tunes are fairly easily recorded for posterity. Tradition is also about behaviour, habits and interaction.
I didn't mean to belittle the tunes section. It is great and again one of the best bits about the tunes list is the comments section, I think it may be unique.
So please, everyone, keep it going. I ask this purely selfishly.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Gosh darnit, I just typed a reply & it *poofed*....
Anyway, here's my $.02 USD. Cuchulain continues to post comments that resonate with me. As a 'beginner' to ITM (btw when can I stop being a beginner? is there a tune quota?) I"m getting the heck off the sidewalk. I'm still racked with guilt over posting 2 Altan tunes that I had not personally played nor had transcribed myself. As learning ABC is WAY down on my list of priorities, & since I have virutally nothing new to contribute to this site as a player, you won't find me posting any tunes any time soon, but nor shall you hear me complaining about the 'purity' of the site.
In terms of clubbiness, those of us out in the middle of nowhere can't afford to be cliquish snobs. My closest 'real ITM' session is about 6 hours away in Phoenix, 2 1/2 hours to a contra band in Flagstaff. As it is, I get lots of eye rolls when I start off a set of Irish jigs in Flag, but hey, I'm the guest, I'll play what they play right? B/c of this, a fair number of tunes I know are contra tunes, but thanks to thesession.org & the tune-police tune-scanner I got from Dow, I'll never start off Bottom of the Punchbowl in mixed company & wonder why half the peeps walk out.
I was just discussing this notion of elitism with my fiddle player, telling her about this thread as well as a recent experience I had at a session in Phoenix. Our local ITM group is pulled together out of laughter & fun moreso than musical integrity, so to the relief of everyone, you won't be hearing us play at a session near you anytime soon (except you Andee, I'm rehearsing my version of "I Am Superman!"). I like that this site is exclusionary if it helps preserve 'the grand ITM tradition,' but in my opinion, you can't have it both ways. You have to be inclusive OR exclusive, & up til now I've felt this site to be very inclusive. However, in either case, you are bound to lose the novices or the greats.
btw if any of you ask me over the summer if I know "The Spotted Pony" or "Nixon's Farewell," I shall adamently deny it.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
But Emily, you did a grand job of posting Heathery Cruach and Glory Reel! And that's the kind of participation I think we should all encourage, though you might have felt better about it if you had played the tunes a while before typing them in here. Live and learn. I did the same thing when I first started here.
Since we're on this dog-poop-on-the-sidewalk analaogy, I want to point out that what some of us have tried to do is gently ask the person walking the dog to clean up after their pet. This is how courteous society works in civilized places. I know, because I clean up after my dogs (who usually defer and wait to get home before unloading anyway...so we clean up our own yard, and our neighbors don't mind seeing our dogs walk by their houses).
That's all I was trying to do in my earlier threads about posting tunes--ask a few people to reflect on the stated purpose of this site (it's on the opening page) and use a sense of discretion when posting tunes, similar to how they would before trotting a new tune out at a meatspace Irish session. I think this current thread has gotten out of hand. There are more constructive ways to talk about differences of opinion. And the tune comments have been more interesting, anyway.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
You're right Will, I should have played them before I posted them, but it never occurred to me before I posted them, I was too greedy in my desire to see the little black dots. From now on, I will convert ABCs privately, & then possibly send an email to those-who-might-know-better, & then think about posting.
Joyce, yeah I will re-emerge to civilization soon enough, but right now the benefits of extreme rural living are for the moment outweighing the rat race I left behind on the East Coast. My rolls stink & I have no teacher, but someday my rolls will kick butt & I'll learn from great players, but until then, I'm doing OK, & thesession.org has been a huge help in that regard. Thanks again Jeremy, for such a fabulous site.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
No harm done Emily. Though it does point out another way that the chance to post tunes can be an attractive nuisance. It had never occurred to me before that some people were using thesession.org tune section simply to convert abcs to sheet music (I have my own transcription software on my hard drive).
I'm hoping we're all agreed that we don't want to see too much of *that* on this site?
But Em, you did a good job of it, and those are fun tunes to boot, so don't beat yourself up over it.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Taking up a point I tried to introduce earlier in regards to Emily's assessment of her rolls. At first I thought she was hiding in the desert because she couldn’t bake very well then I remembered where we were and thought, That's it! She may have trouble learning rolls because of isolation, yet she has access to this wonderful machine that can produce sounds from blips of electricity. I recall a while back a swapping of sound files, but not where they were located. Since rolls, cuts, figure-8 bowings etc. are what make Irish music Irish and the emphasis given to the various components forms the basis of the reputed regional styles maybe we can shift this discussion to the use of sound files (As Jeremy's head explodes contemplating massive server overload) to help out some of the beginner's or anybody with a question. Suppose we post recordings of the same tune, say Miss McLeod's, in Scots, Cape Breton, American Old Timey, and various Irish styles so that the newbie can tell the difference. Some of us could post examples of how we play various ornaments and where we put them.
This may help short circuit alot of opinion by simply dealing with the musical factiod as presented.
Thesession.org is not a good tool to use simply to generated printed music. The conversion process is not instant, and there is no way to fix it after it's done. But there are options:
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I love AOG's suggestion, or some version of it. What about getting the braintrust that is the Session to work together to compile an analysis of the ornaments that make Irish music Irish? I'm sure it's in here, scattered among 1,000 different postings, but would it be great to have a focussed analysis of it here!
Fluters and whistlers had a discussion on a recent thread -- I found it interesting and valuable. I can hear ornaments on recordings or even live, but I admit I can't discern exactly what's happening, so I try to approximate them by wiggling my fingers. Not really acceptible, I realize.
Why don't we kiss and make up, so we get get at it?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
LOLOL cuch, you crack me up I swear.
glauber, thanks for the additional links, I shall peruse them in the near future. I always thoroughly enjoy your postings, & this one was no different (ie the start of this discussion). I never hope you feel you have to censor yourself, you have always been a HUGE help to me & tons of others on this site, so I'm hoping to see more tunes from you!! ;)
aog, I can bake OK, but since I've been on that low-carb diet lately, heh, you would do better to try my Seared Salmon Stuffed with Crab Meat! As for posting non-ITM versions of various tunes, ack! Didn't we just come from there??
& thanks again Will for the reassurance re posting tunes, but I am now converted to the no-brainless-plagiarizing camp, where, I do believe trevor was coming from when he made the argument not to listen to other musicians before a big recital, but that's neither here nor there....
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Okay, I can't even last 24 hours with my mouth shut - you're right Zina.
I think Cuchulain54's hit the nail on the head. However much the "regulars" would like this to be a real session, it isn't. And it's pointless to bring baggage from real-life sessions to it. Posting a tune here is not the same as playing a tune in a session. If someone plays a tune which the regulars of a session don't like, they have to either sit there and hear it out, or they can be rude and play over the top of it. Here, if you don't like a tune that's been posted - hello?! ignore it! You don't have to waste your time acknowledging that it's there even. You don't have to open it up and read the ABC and comments. You don't have to listen to the sound file. If you want, you can post a tune at exactly the same time as someone else without being in the least bit rude. At the same time, if you want to be rude about someone or their tunes, you can.
Without meaning to offend the regulars: it seems that some imagine this as a small group of people getting together and swapping tunes. The fact is, we're being spied upon. First of all there are a huge number of members on this site, many of whom stay silent and observe. This doesn't include web surfers who use this as an index to complement the likes of JC's and Henrik Norbeck's. They nick our tunes and ideas, and read our discussions and comments, then leave without trace. I know because I used to be one of them. I used this site for months (years) as a resource before I ever got round to becoming a member and contributing.
Personally, I would be gutted to see any of the people leave who have been contributing for a long time. I don't understand at all why Brad has decided to leave. I thought he was a nice guy with a lot of knowledge to contribute, but it's simply pointless to leave because you feel you're being "ousted" in some way by newcomers. I would hope that newcomers would respect the regulars and the whole continuing culture of this website, and realise that it exists. But, unlike a real session - and this is what it boils down to - it is not possible for newcomers to overwhelm or oust the established members in any way, shape or form. That's why you must view any newcomer's contributions merely as a new resource to draw on, and not as any type of threat. They cannot possibly affect what you're doing, and the ongoing community and culture of this site, which has become an institution in itself. That is, unless the regulars decide to leave. If they leave, then this website is too much of a big, international thing to ever die. It would just be that it would have needlessly lost the valuable contributions of those particular people.
Another thing: people seem to be especially against Welsh tunes. Okay, the Welsh tunes I have heard I haven't particularly liked, and I wouldn't go out of my way to play them, because I have no affinity with them. I've never even been to Wales. But there just might be a few real gems of tunes there somewhere, so I wouldn't mind just having a look at the tunes as they get posted here. If I don't like them: fine. What these tunes certainly aren't going to do is overwhelm the Irish tunes on this site and become the majority - ever. There are only one or two people who have posted only a handful of Welsh tunes thus far. With all the hundreds of people interested only in Irish music on this site, do you honestly think that it's eventually going to get "taken over" by Welsh tunes? Get real.
Minority interests such as Welsh music I would tend to liken to the Welsh language. Welsh people have a lot of pride in their language, and it has been under threat for a long time. The Welsh push for Welsh language use in as many areas of society as possible. But however hard they push, the Welsh language is never going to overwhelm the dominant culture and displace English. That's not how power works in society. In the same way, I think regulars here hold a certain amount of power that can be misused to make newcomers feel left out and unwelcome. If everyone was a bit more tolerant and directed their energies into posting more of the tunes they play, then there's no reason why this website should ever die.
And by the way, I think it's a huge insult to Jeremy's creation to even suggest that it might.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I've got a theory why Cuch, or anyone else for that matter, can find it so difficult to identify what is going on in an ornament played on a recording or live.
Apparently it's next to impossible for the ear to distinguish clearly separate notes in a sequence played at a rate of more than about 18 notes per second. If you take a reel played at 1/4=240 (which is very moderate for some players) then you're getting eight 1/8 notes per second. You've only got to squeeze three or more ornament notes into the time of an 1/8 note and you're comfortably exceeding that 18 notes per second limit. The ear may not be quite able to make out what is going on at that speed and interprets it as a "splurge" of sound or perhaps even as a percussive effect. I suspect this may be what is happening when you hear some of Tommy People's playing, for example.
Looking at a live performance using video is probably not much help because that has a top limit of 30 fps, and fingers playing a high speed ornament will become a blur at critical moments.
The only practicable way to work out exactly what's going on is to download the audio onto a hard drive and look at the waveform in millisecond detail using a wave editor in conjunction with a frequency analyzer to tell you what the wave frequency, and therefore the pitch of the note, is at any point in the waveform.
I'll guess that you'll then probably find some high speed ornaments cannot be strictly notatable in any notation known to man!
PS: Cool Edit 2000 is an easily accessible sound editor that does all of what I've described, except actually printing out the music.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Mark (Dow), you're misunderstanding some folks here. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trying to get you to shut up or quit participating. But I at least hope you can participate in a more constructive way...presuming to know what us lifers here at the session understand about who uses the site is putting thoughts and words in our heads that are not there (we're quite aware that several hundreds of people lurk through here--that's one of my main concerns about tunes and discussions that go so far afield (see the old thread about Celine Dion : - ) ) Zina's sense of "club" extends to everyone around the world who plays this music with passion, not just her "favorite" posters here at thesession.org. Another word might be "community." Sure it's a diverse community, with divergences of opinion and people who will never see eye to eye. But it's still a distinct community--at sessions and at sites like this--from those that form around other types of music. All anyone is asking is that newcomers respect that distinct sense of community (based on Irish trad music) and the sensibilities of the people here when they choose to join in.
Trevor, I'm sorry but I had to laugh when you said that looking at the waveforms is the "only practicable" way to understand Irish ornamentation. I suppose that would be "one" way, but in 20 years of playing, I've found it's very effective to just listen, ask questions from other players, and experiment. On one hand, everyone has their own personal sense of timing on cut notes, rolls, triplets, etc. That's partly why you can tell Bobby Casey apart from P.J. Hayes or James Kelly or Sean Smyth or Kevin Burke, etc. On the other hand, everyone who plays within the tradition ends up with ornaments that sound "Irish." So there's some commonality too. My rolls sound so much like other more accomplished Irish fiddlers that no one questions whether I'm an experienced Irish fiddler. But I've never once seen a waveform on my hard drive, and I'm just some post-war suburban Yank baby boomer who fell in love with the tchunes years ago and stuck with it.
Dow (Mark), what I just wrote to Trevor is a good example of why some of us worry about stuff that gets posted on this site. Trevor's hi-tech idea is interesting, plausible, perhaps even helpful to other technophiles out there. But it's coming at the music from a really strange, untraditional way. I hope newbies to the music don't take it at it's word, because they'd be missing a big point of trad music: learning by ear and echoing what they hear other players doing on their instruments. I hope you can let some of us contradict and even joke about things we disagree with on this site, without you stomping off yourself (Brad will be back someday) or escalating the rhetoric.
For me, it's the lack of really listening to each other that's getting tiresome.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I appreciate some of Dow's comments.
Like him, I really can't understand why Brad has decided to leave. Sure, he left once before but that was because he was insulted. I rectified that situation by getting rid of the offending party. This time, though, I just have no idea what's happened to prompt his dramatic departure.
When people I really respect decide to leave the site, I can't help but ask myself what I'm doing wrong.
Also, when people whose opinion I really respect start talking about the "death" of The Session... well, that really saddens me.
I try not to let it get to me. Nearly all of the comments I usually read about the site are positive. Anyway, like I've said elsewhere, moaning about what you don't like about the site won't get you anywhere unless you're willing to back it up with active participation to make The Session the site you want it to be.
Dow really hit the nail on the head when he said:
"If everyone was a bit more tolerant and directed their energies into posting more of the tunes they play, then there's no reason why this website should ever die."
However, Dow, when it comes to Welsh tunes: there's nothing wrong with them, but they really deserve their own website, don't you think?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I agree about the only posting apropriate tunes.....I'm just a beginner and need guidance with which tunes are good to play at sessions......I'm too inexperienced to know the difference between inapropriate and apropriate....just thought I'd mention that for the future!
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
On decoding ornamentation – I agree with Will re listening and talking to players, but Trevor (and those who live on Indian reservations!) might be interested in the shareware programme Amazing Slow Downer and other such programmes which allow you to slow an audio recording down whilst maintaining pitch so you can hear what’s going on and still play along in the right key – put the programme title into a search engine and you should find it.
On the rest of this thread… I’m a complete newcomer to ITM but all this is exactly analogous to the problems we have in early music societies. The “what is early music” debate rages as hotly as the “what is ITM” and “what is session music” debates.
I understand Dow’s point about simply ignoring tunes that you might consider inappropriate.
I do believe though that if The Session is to have any sort of “teaching role”, for want of a better term, for newcomers/the general public, then it is appropriate to point out when something is getting towards the fringes of “the tradition”.
To illustrate my point with a parallel from my early music life… my early music society exists to promote historically-informed performances on period instruments. It actively encourages people to bring modern instruments to our workshops so that everyone can learn to play this music better and to some extent there is even support for contemporary compositions written for period instruments. However if we are to stage a performance under the auspices of the Early Music Association for the purpose of giving the general public a demonstration of historically informed performance on period instruments, we will not use modern instruments and we will not play contemporary music, even though those things have their place within the early music community. Amongst a gathering of people steeped in a particular tradition, excursions towards the fringes don’t confuse or mislead anybody but when you’re approaching a concept such as “early music” or ITM from the outside it’s nice for a beginner to be able to find out what is considered unquestionably part of the tradition, what is considered debatable and what 99% of people think is on the outer limit.
Sometimes you do have to rein people in to avoid PR disasters. We had one person in EMA who was keen to do a public education/promote the EMA performance with a flat-back mandolin quartet who were going to play Mozart. “Mandolin is an early instrument and Mozart wrote some music before the “cut off date” so what’s the problem?” seemed to be the rationale.
As part of a mandolin orchestra concert that would have been just great. Maybe it would have been OK at an EMA members’ function, though many would have thought it inappropriate. At least it wouldn’t have sent anybody trying to learn about EM off in a direction that simply wasn’t EM at all. But there was no way that playing Classical quartet transcriptions for instruments not used in that period, and on 20th c. versions of those instruments not used in that period, was going to teach Fred Public a blessed thing about what the EMA exists to promote. This person didn’t seem to understand at all and after several months of just not fitting in, left the society.
So, in summary, FWIW from my ITM beginner’s viewpoint, it seems OK amongst a group of aficionados to allow music ranging from hard-core right-in-the-centre stuff to stuff that’s almost out of range but when education comes into it, it helps to identify where this stuff fits so that those trying to learn (like me) can easily find out when something might be considered a bit off the beaten track.
The Session does not have this public face/members-only face split that my EM society does, so it’s difficult to say “we’ll allow this amongst consenting adults at membership functions but not when we put on an educational display” which I suppose is where a lot of the problem occurs – everything on The Session is out there all the time for everyone, confused neophyte or hard-core old-timer.
From my viewpoint, as long as experienced folk continue to provide guidance in the comments column, and I don’t find myself looking at several new tunes in a row every week that are generally considered on the outer limits, then I can learn what I hope to learn from this site.
Guess that’s a long-winded way of saying I agree with earlier comments re the ratio of “Irish/session tunes” to “other tunes” and requests for folks to use the comments section.
Thanks Jeremy, and to everyone who posts and comments, for giving me this free learning resource!
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Jeremy--don't feel badly!! i don't know if I've thanked you yet for all of your hard work. You certainly can't please everyone, and even those with gripes still love this site. I still kind of consider myself a newcomer--signed up in Sept. as soon as I discovered this site. What a goldmine it has been. Besides my teacher, I don't have anyone to talk about this stuff with in such depth. And my teacher's so busy anyway to really get into stuff the way we do here.
Don't get discouraged, Jeremy--you are doing a terrific job!
there's nothing wrong. As a moderator, you have a very "hands off" style and, as most things in life, this has advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are obvious. One of the disadvantages, however, is that sometimes it's hard to know what you want, and we waste time playing "Jeremy's Oracle."
For example, when i posted my "apology" above, i was really convinced that i had been wrong, that it was ok for thesession to evolve into a site for all kinds of music, not just Irish session music. I was going to join the crowd and post a couple of Brazilian "choros".
Then you posted your "rules" message, which made clear that it wasn't that at all. You went on and got rid of some of the most offending tunes, discussions, etc. All this is great.
But if you want to understand why Brad, Will and me get unhappy sometimes, think of all the time we spend trying to convince people that they should concentrate on the Irish tradition, but getting no visible results. We don't like telling people that they're wrong; we don't like putting unfavorable comments in tunes, etc; we do it because we love this site, it seemed necessary, and nobody else was doing it. We have jobs and busy lifes, and it's hard to justify doing these unpleasant things when there are so many pleasant and/or urgent things that also need to be done. I definitely should have been in bed an hour ago; instead i'm writing and rewriting this post, just because i don't want you to be discouraged.
So there. Thank you enormously for thesession. Right now, i've just had a bad experience and even got paraded as an example of how things should not be done, so it's probably best if i keep a low profile for a while at least until this discussion moves to the second page and dies. But this in no way reduces the value of this site. Later!
Ah, well. Mark/Dow, let me tell you now...this is more like a regular meatspace session than you might think. Fer instance -- you know bb. I know bb, though I haven't met her in person. She even knows people I know, been in the same pubs I've been in. Like in Ireland where the first forty five minutes of meeting someone new is spent figuring who you're related to and who you know in common, we do that here. *grin* My advice the next time you see bb is: duck. Heh.
Will gave you what is essentially exactly what I would have said up above about *your* comments on *my* comments (although Will is a better writer than I am and so he said it shorter!). I am completely content to let him do so, and he got it spot on, which I'd trust him to do on quite a few subjects. Although I've never met Will in person, I've known him now since the beginning of The Session. We've had our spats and our misunderstandings and apologies and back history that newcomers to The Session know nothing about. Just like at a meatspace session. Someone making assumptions about the relationships between some of us old The Session-fogeys would be walking a perilous line -- just like it would be Not A Good Move to walk into a meatspace session and just assume things about the relationships between the players there.
Is it exactly the same? No. In some ways it's better. The outer circle of The Session is a LOT bigger than your normal outer circle at a given session. Couldn't fit everyone in at your usual pub. Having the ability to pass tunes around like we do is such a gift. Making the friends I've made is an even bigger gift. I'd open and have opened my home to people I've never met but through here, from the most far-flung places.
Part of my field of study used to be studying Computer-Mediated Communications. And the community we've built here (and continue to build) using CMC is a valid, living one for those who choose to see it as such. The ability to see this site as a true community leads to so many other wonderful things for me. And I feel a little sorry for anyone not able to share in that sense of community here.
Will The Session ever die? I doubt it, even if Jeremy ever hauls the files off the servers -- it'd live in a lot of relationships and friendships and personal history. Can its present form die? Oh yes. Imagine this site without a sense of community, just an archive of tunes, for instance. Or imagine it without a sense of humor. Or without the discussions that ramble on and off subject, to the dismay of some and the enjoyment of others. It'd be *different*, of course -- not always a bad thing, not always a good thing. There's some of us who care fiercely about what we think of as a good thing here and who will actually care emotionally about it changing away from what we believe it to be.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Zina, my comments weren't directed entirely at your comments! Actually it's only the discussions that get personal in an attacking way which really bother me. I guess what I said above was my way of saying "Zina don't you dare think of leaving the session, because it'll do no good for yourself or anyone else". And the reason I say that is because your contributions to the site are interesting, well-informed and humorous, and if you go, the site loses that. So don't you dare. What I was trying to say was, your leaving would have a different effect from leaving a real session - no-one wins. Do you see what I mean? And Will, I know that you enjoy a good debate, (and you're easier than I thought to wind up!) I appreciate and understand the connection some of the regulars here have with this site, and I'm not dissing that. I just think we have to remind ourselves exactly what this website is and how it functions. That's why discussions like this (and Jeremy's new one above) are so important.
By the way, Will, I was never going to stomp off, and have never said so. (I might not post tunes for a while, until things chill out a bit tho'). And I don't accept that I'm "escalating the rhetoric" - I'm merely stating my point of view, same as you're doing; it's just that it happens to be different to the opinions of some other people, but that's okay isn't it? And all the stuff about "tune police", well that's me being silly and fooling around - the English love irony [not sarcasm].
As for Trevor, his approach is just different from yours, and it's interesting because of it. He's not hurting or threatening you by thinking about waveforms, it's just different. It's nothing to worry about, (unless of course he hacks into the system and destroys the whole database!)
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Sorry Cuch, I went and played for 3 hours at my local taproom, and now I'm back and wishing this site was as crazily coherent and engaging and sessionish as it used to be.
I'm a writer and editor by trade. I get paid to be nit picky. So I feel the urge to wade in and get nit picky when Jeremy writes:
"Dow really hit the nail on the head when he said:
'If everyone was a bit more tolerant and directed their energies into posting more of the tunes they play, then there's no reason why this website should ever die.'"
"However, Dow, when it comes to Welsh tunes: there's nothing wrong with them, but they really deserve their own website, don't you think?"
I'd agree if it said: "directed more of their energies into posting more of the tunes they play at [IRISH] sessions...."
Is it just me, or are some people here talking about their local sessions that include a wider range of music? Maybe Trevor and Daffyd play at sessions where Welsh tunes are welcome and part and parcel of the evening's tunage. Maybe Mark/Dow plays world music at his session. Maybe Glauber and the Cariocas (good name for a band!) play samba every other set.
But none of that is why I come to thesession.org. I come here for Irish tunes, and there are still hundreds or thousands well within the tradition that I want to learn, never mind half a lifetime of picking up jigs and reels and hornpipes and (even - gasp!) polkas. I *don't* come here to learn the Blink 182 songs my son and I play on electric guitars, or the French Canadian tunes I heard last summer during a music festival, or the Cajun two step a friend of mine wants me to play with her.
Why is it so hard to respect that the focus of this site is Irish trad dance music, as it's commonly played at died in the wool Irish music sessions? I've heard McKenna's and the Torn Jacket and the Monaghan Jig at sessions in Washington D.C., Helena MT, and Vancouver B.C. I've heard the same tunes on under-the-vest tapes from pubs in Galway, Doolin, and somebody's kitchen in Enniskerry. Why aren't we talking about these tunes here? 'Cause we're wading through Welsh harp tunes and moravian nose flute tunes and national anthems. And when that eats up too much time, in a rather unpleasant way, then I think about what I'd rather be doing. That's probably why Brad rode into the sunset.
What it comes down to for me is that I spend no small amount of time and energy defending my local session against people who want to do Pogues' songs or play bluegrass boom-chuck guitar en masse. I usually steer them to the open mic night down the street....
So in the end, I agree with Jeremy, but wish he'd be more specific and emphatic: This site is for Irish trad dance music. If that's too narrow for you, start a World Music site. That'd be a great addition to the web, and a much more broadly inclusive (by design and definition) place to share tunes of all persuasions. And you can post a link here.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Will, this is silly, we're going round in circles. What you say implies that all you're interested in is Irish trad dance music, but you've said in other threads that you're fine with a smattering of tunes from elsewhere (I thought I came across one of your compositions the other day on this site but I could be wrong - does that get played at sessions?) I'm not talking about world music. I think we're saying the same thing really, i.e. that you want people to post tunes that are played at Irish sessions wherever. But read through some of your postings - it doesn't come across like that...
Mark, we posted at the same time. But please go back and read my earlier posts. I never said Trevor was "hurting me." What I said is that "it's coming at the music from a really strange, untraditional way. I hope newbies to the music don't take it at it's word, because they'd be missing a big point of trad music: learning by ear and echoing what they hear other players doing on their instruments."
That doesn't hurt me at all, but it would still be a shame. And, to a trad musician, it just seems incredibly off the wall (and a bit narrow-minded) to say that studying waveforms on your computer is the "only practicable" way to learn Irish trad ornamentation. Communication is difficult enough as it is. It rarely helps to talk in absolutes, especially when lots of people are listening in, all with varying degrees of experience and levels of understanding. Same with long tirades sans abundant smiley faces about tune police and i.d. cards for access to sessions.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I agree it is strange.
As for the tune police post: I thought that what I was saying was so utterly ridiculous and silly that it couldn't possibly be taken seriously by anyone. Please take it with a large fistful of salt as it was meant.
Heh...I agree...as silly as it gets. But I still don't feel "heard."
Don't get us started on original compositions. Many people write tunes in a trad style...and some of them do end up being widely played in sessions. that's how we got Cooley's and Brendan Tonro's and Martin Wynne's and the Kerfunteun Jig and all those wonderful Paddy Fahy's. As for my own tunes, well, yeah. A jig I wrote does get played in sessions. And last I heard, a reel of mine may end up on a cd being laid down by a band in Scotland. That's how it works. But it works because those "new" tunes fit in the tradition.
If you do go back and read my earlier posts and threads and comments in the tune archives, I think what you see is that I've tried to be a voice for discretion and moderation--from both sides. You're right, I don't mind a scattering of "foreign" or non-trad tunes here--particularly if they're just amazing, soul-rending tunes. (I really don't mean to keep picking on Trevor, but I don't put Y Dynwr in that category.) On the other hand, I can see why some of the other long-time session members are less tolerant. Either way, I'm as tired as they are of hinting and then saying as bluntly as possible--"give us a break and post something you play at Irish sessions," and--unfortunately, seeing no sign of being heard. As I've said elsewhere on this site, several of us sent personal emails, tried to be polite, avoided too discouraging a tone, made slightly stronger suggestions, and then got blunt when the message was ignored. You couldn't see it, but when the "Irish Waterman" was posted, people were throwing up their hands, laughing and crying at the same time, in many corners of the Irish trad world.
So I've started to be more blunt myself about Jeremy's stated purpose for starting and maintaining this site. His reasons are the reasons I first signed on and later became a contributor. I thought it was a site for like-minded people. Room for differences of opinion--you betcha. But the bulls eye is still Irish trad music. You can disagree as much as you want here, as long as we're disagreeing about the same topic.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
*chuckle...snort!*
Good on you, Mark. I think we've worn all the others out. I'm to bed myself. Can't stay awake long enough for this page to download itself again, heh. Next time, you add the smiley faces and I'll remember the salt, and we'll both keep an eye out for Bridie on the war path. You watch my back and I'll watch yours....
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I use loads of smileys but not when I'm trying to deadpan ironic humour. I guess that doesn't work on the net. I'm off to a session in a few minutes. I know it's not one that Bridie usually goes to so I'm safe for the mo! I think I've got enough mileage out of this one - now I'll just have to think up another discussion topic to argue about for next week.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
As the globe spins, it's time for night shift's turn, heh.
Well I guess I just wanted to chime in about the shelf-life of chat rooms & internet discussion boards in general, & how regs leaving determines their fate. (Zina, love to hear your take on this based on your work in computer mediation-- fascinating!)
Anyway, I'm sure many of you have been on similar forums to this (as I have) which have faded or self-destructed due to regs leaving, for whatever reason. I believe thesession.org to be safeguarded against this for the primary reason of the stated intent of Jeremy to its being an archive of tunes (um, Irish dance tunes?), so that, I feel, essentially protects & insures its legacy & future, as opposed to other sites which are often based on personalities or other more transitory common interests. When someone leaves quietly, or goes to lurking status unobtrusively, sort of like going to the bar for a pint, well that's just normal. But if someone noisily packs up their instrument in the middle of a tune & walks out into the wintry night, yes, we should ask ourselves why.
I didn't read what Brad wrote, & missed out on a lot of tunes commentary as that where much of the action seems to have shifted of late, so I don't know what he was thinking when he left. Could've been 'this place takes up too much time right now,' or more likely, 'this place doesn't meet my needs anymore.' I guess what I'm saying is that we need to ask ourselves what we come to thesession for, & what we can do in return to support it, & Jeremy. It's like I said in another post, I don't think you can have it both ways. As the site changes & evolves, we're bound to lose either novices or the greats. It's just the nature of change I guess, esp. on the internet.
Did I mention I hope Brad comes back? & can we play now?
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Will, it's just that I've worked in science and engineering all my live (well, until I took early retirement) and it often comes naturally to me to think of a tech approach. Old habits die hard.
I agree with you that in most cases if you can't quite make out what's going on, then look, listen and ask; it works. But there are some instances where things happen too fast for the ear to catch everything and if I really want to know the full detail for sure then I start thinking about a tech approach. Oh dear - perhaps I should be posting this comment on another thread!
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Aaarrrggghhh!!!
David, many of us know all about Irish trad music's inclination to "listen to outside influences" and incorporate non-trad or foreign tunes (notice the "or"--I'm using "foreign" as shorthand for tunes from other trad forms, and non-trad as shorthand for things like playing the theme song to Gilligan's Island at a session). So it's not "despite what some people on this site may think."
No, I think what some of us are trying to say is listening to outside influences is fine. Playing "outside" tunes is terrific. But why bring so much of that to *this* site? Why is it so hard for some people to let this site be about Irish trad dance tunes (which is what Jeremy set it up for and some us come here for)?
The metaphor of a "critical sponge" is spot on--precisely what I'd personally would like this site to be. I just think that lately, we've been mostly sponge-like and not critical (in a good sense) enough. The tune archives by themselves cannot weed out the lame tunes from the "best of whatever comes its way." Tunes get posted and they stay here, unless Jeremy donates more of his time to weed out the inappropriate. Wouldn't it be "better" if each of us were that "critical sponge" and used a sense of discretion--informed by our experience of playing Irish trad music--to decide which tunes met that standard of "the best" and should be posted here?
I've said it over and over...personally, I don't mind the occasional tune from outside the Irish tradition. But I want it to be a gem, a tune that most Irish session players would oggle longingly and think, "Now there's a tune we should be playing at our session." What we've been seeing of late are tunes that make me and a few other long-time members think, "Now there's a really bizarre and hilarious twist on Irish Washerwoman," or "Well it's cute to post Eighth of January on the 8th of January, but does that mean I can post Ruby Tuesday next Tuesday?"
and : - |
So...for me, it's NOT antagonism toward other traditions. I feel like shouting this because I'm tired of defending myself against this charge (but I'll be nice). I *play* music from other traditions every week. I listen to music from many other cultures. I also play Scottish, Cape Breton, Shetland, French Canadian, even an English tune or two at my local session. BUT I'm selective and not overbearing, and when other people set aside time and space to concentrate on Irish dance tunes (as at my local session or here on thesession.org), I *respect* that. I *don't* follow Toss the Feathers with Foggy Mountain Breakdown or Deep River Blues or Diggy Diggy Lo. Not that those aren't great music and fun to play...but they *don't* fit in at that time and place. And the reason they don't fit in is NOT because they're somehow "inferior" tunes or non-trad or whatever. It's because most of the people in the room on this site right then are there to play Irish dance tunes, they ones they've worked so hard and lovingly to learn. And I respect that.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
You know, I have some really cool tunes I'd like to post, but I seldom play in sessions (there aren't any around here), so I'm too scared to post them now. It's an unfortunate byproduct of this otherwise healthy discussion.
It's too bad -- sigh! -- because they are achingly beautiful.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Heh, Cuch, they aren't Wisconsin cheese-head ballads by any chance, are they?
"Oh the dells, the dells, the bonnie bonnie dells...."
But seriously, if anyone has a tune they'd like to post but feel anxious about it, email it to me (or another session member who's online persona doesn't terrify you) and I'll look at it. I've done this for a handful of people, and every time I've encouraged them to post the tune, sometimes with a few suggested changes, sometimes not. Bear in mind, there are plenty of people here more knowledgeable than me, and nearly all generous with their time and eager to be genuinely helpful. That's why we participate here.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Will, Your points are well understood. I think that most of us who have kept up with this post can see where some comments have missed the mark in their analysis of your statements.
I stumbled upon this site when I was searching for some ABC's for some tune. Who can remember the specifics? I remember book marking the home page and reading the little bit that Jeremy posted. It was concise and told all I needed. This site is about traditional Irish music. I started following discussions and quickly found that this place was an excellent resouce for how to information. Well I got hooked on what the stated purpose of the session was and the magificent follow up that older members put into the site.
Although I respect the contrary opinions, I am here for what the home page says and the veterans built. You might be feeling that your words are bouncing off the walls and not hitting receptive ears. You might also feel that you have not swayed anyone. I know that you worked to try and make your points as palatable for everyone at the session. I appreciate your Herculean effort on this. For that matter I appreciate all the folk who were able to discuss this matter with a civil tongue.
I think we are reawakened and refocused. Sometimes it takes an Earthquake to shake things up. It's done.
Brad - come on back - I learned a lot of tunes off your posts in the past 8 months. Your effort has been my benefit. I respect your opinions as well - I don't you ever heard me say a word of support for you before. Thought I'd post it and hope it would make a difference.
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
The ironic thing about most of this is that I think just about everyone agrees, largely. It's just that everyone is approaching the subject from a slightly different angle. What's unfortunate is losing someone like Brad, who is a very good guy and a knowledgeable player and resource, because of all this. Even more unfortunately, in cases where there appears to be irreconcilable differences, the group has to start privately wondering (hopefully in the background) which person is more valuable to them, which is a dismaying thing to find yourself thinking.
We've all probably had the experience of meeting a group of people during the course of a hobby or work or whatever, and discovering that, for some of them, the focus of the group doesn't fit where we want to be. Most experienced players have certainly visited sessions that they quickly decided they didn't want to visit again, or went for a while only to discover things that don't fit with how you see this music and abandoning ship then. That's what happened with Brad and what came perilously c
Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
(Editor: long post follows, the summary of which is: let's stop posting tunes that are not meant to be played in sessions.)
I'm sure that 10 years from now we will still be debating this, and we will probably still be debating this until the sun grows cold and the universe shuts down and we finally run out of electrons but i'd like to offer my own version of the same complaint other people have been expressing recently.
I believe that *the* best way to enjoy Irish music is participating in an open session, and i mean "meatspace", not "cyberspace" session. The kind where flutes drip, rosin flies from the fiddles, and the bodhrans... nevermind the bodhrans.
Anyway, sessions are great, but the learning curve is also steep. Before you can participate, you have to learn how to play an instrument, learn the Irish tradition of playing that instrument, and learn at least a dozen tunes by memory. Lots of stuff to learn. For the ones of us who were not born in Ireland, hard stuff to learn, few places where we can learn it. But once you're ready, the experience is, like Barry Foy says, the most fun you can have and still keep your clothes on.
That's where www.thesession.org comes in. Here's a "place" where even the shy can come, learn about the tradition, learn about sessions, and learn the repertory.
Or at least it used to be. These days, just about every other tune posted here is *not* something you will ever play in a session. I'm afraid some of the tunes posted here will cause you bodily harm if you attempt to play them in a session. These days, if i tell an aspiring novice about this site, i'll have to say "but don't look at the tunes part, the tunes there are not something you'll ever use in a session."
Shame on us. This is a great resource, and it's almost 100% an user-managed resource, and we're mis-managing it. I understand that there will always be noise, but when the ratio of noise versus usable tunes is greater than 50%, something is wrong.
That's what i wanted to say. Sorry for taking so much of your time, but i love this site, and i'm not happy to see it become irrelevant to the purpose it was created for: the sharing of session material, session experiences and session-related advice.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Hmm... I tend to agree with your general sentiments.
I have nothing against welsh, scottish, cape breton,new england whatever tunes but I do think they need to be balanced and remain very much in the minority.
How about, if you want to post an "unusual", non-session tune, you should first post 5 or 6 session tunes to balance it out?
Does that sound fair?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Jeremy
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I think it's fair. For starters, i think people should, in general, refrain from posting tunes until they become regular session goers. Unfortunately, the tunes section is very cool (hey Mom, look, i put music on the Internet!), and this attracts the fancy of the newcomers. Somebody (Will) said that you shouldn't post a tune unless you've learned it by ear and transcribed it yourself. This is also a good general rule. Don't post stuff out of a book unless someone else has requested it (and even then, maybe a personal email would be more appropriate).
These are just general common-sense rules, which can be broken occasionally without harm.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Very fair. JEREMY, THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE, HAS SPOKEN! So there. Thanks, Jeremy!
Zina
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Bravo Glauber! My sentiments exactly! I'm just a beginner, but I'm working very hard at learning and playing ITM. It can get confusing when other genres of tunes are mixed in with the Irish dance tunes.
At our local session here, we have a lot of old-time/American tunes mixed into the session. Only a small handfull of folks start these American tunes. But there are several of us who now wait until these folks leave or finish playing and then we sit down to play our Irish trad tunes. It's like 2 different sessions in one night. We aren't trying to be rude, but we want to play Irish music! We live for the stuff so we are eager to play it.
The place where we have our session just started hosting an Old-time session on a different day. I'm hoping folks will take advantage of this and that our Irish session will become just Irish like it was meant to be. I'm hoping this will be the solution we've been looking for....
What if we had a section for just trad Irish tunes and a section for Misc. Celtic tunes? Just a thought.
Joyce
Joyce
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by JMH
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Three cheers for Glauber for spelling it out! Glauber I agree with every word.
I'm reminded of a time in Miltown in the days when the Central Hotel had a little residents lounge at the back. A mighty session was in swing with Bobby Casey and all the old guard. During a lull in the session some guy took out a concertina and proceeded to give us a recital of English tunes. This went on for 15 or twenty minutes. Needless to say this was as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit and the session started to break up. Geoff Woof, the pipe maker from Australia was there and he was showing me a flute he had made in C. As his own pipes were in C and I was dying to try the flute we struck up a big set of reels at the first opportunity and kept it going for about 15 minutes. The concertina took the hint (not very subtle) and packed up.
Sometimes bluntness is the only way.
Yours,
A grumpy old git
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by milesnagopaleen
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I can see your point but there are many Irish trad musiciens interested in foreign tunes ( including myself). Perhaps there are a minority but relatively speaking there are much less non- Irish tunes than Irish tunes.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by hhold
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Hey...being Cajun French, american, and new to learning irish music...I can't tell the dif. between what's ITM, scottish, etc. unless I'm told. I came here to learn ITM to play in sessions. I'd like to see it indicated in some way when a tune is traditional irish, trad. scottish, or something else so's I get it right. Otherwise, I'll have to start a discussion thread called "Is this tune ITM?" and ask about new tunes I find on here and am unfamiliar with.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Gee, this feels like the prequel to the discussion I started on how we post tunes....
I agree that the chance to post tunes here is what insurance agensts call an "attractive nuisance" to newcomers. And it's clear that some people are posting tunes without much personal grounding in the Irish music tradition. And some of us have less patience for that than others.
I wonder if part of the problem is that people come to this site for widely different reasons. Likely, there are lots of relative newcomers to Irish music looking to learn tunes and about sessions, etc. But there are also long-time players looking for a bit of craic, session info when traveling, and maybe a new (read: obscure) tune or two.
We're also dealing with people who play in Irish sessions that are imbedded in vastly different cultures.
So: I've never heard the Irish National Anthem played at a session (but someone once sang the Star Spangled Banner at one... yikes!), but I can't tell you whether that happens at sessions in other places. I've never heard much Welsh, strictly Scottish, Cape Breton, Old Timey, etc., played either--a smattering maybe, but usually by just one or two players and everyone else sits out. Now, I don't mean this in some elitist way, orto denegrate the music someone else plays, but it seems to me that if this *isn't* the norm where you play, then maybe you're not in a genuine Irish session. I've been to old timey and bluegrass jams, and someone tosses out a set of Irish reels, but I wouldn't try to change that circle over to Irish, or call it that.
I suspect some of us in the States are more sensitive to this issue than those in Ireland because we struggle to hang on to some shred of authenticity in a society that can't tell the difference between Old Joe Clark and John Joe Casey's. So we tend to run with blinders on to other genres of music, hoping they'll stay away from our local sessions. It's natural for that attitude to spill over onto this web site, and for some resentment to rear up when people post "other" tunes at a site reserved for Irish dance music. In general, I think most of us have been amazingly polite about this issue...perhaps too polite to get the point across.
I'll try to post more session tunes myself (but it's hard when I spend all my time on discussion threads... ;o), and we should caution people (you know who you are
not to post tunes strictly from written sources. It's usually obvious when this is done, and it tends to shy me away from the tune right off. (And yes, the irony of discrediting written sources for posting tunes in written form *does* occur to me 
.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
You know, a lot of us newcomers to thesession.org don't post tunes because it's attractive to do so, nor, as glauber suggests, so we can say "Hey, look, mom!"
I personally posted a handful of tunes (ones that I play, not pulled out of a book, by the way) because I felt a bit guilty about taking so much without giving. I've downloaded a ton of music from here and don't like to feel like a greedy, noncontributing parasite.
Another way of discouraging contributions by the unwashed masses, if that's the goal here, is maybe to assure people that they are welcome to eat all they want to, even if they didn't bring a dish to pass.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Phew, chill. Point taken, I stopped posting tunes a while back. I apologize - I misunderstood the purpose of this website from the beginning. I thought it was for sessions and the music played at sessions, and could be used as a valuable international resource for traditional session music to be passed on to other people. I think people who try to separate tunes according to country are making a mistake, given that a lot of the reels and hornpipes you think are Irish are from Scotland with a name change (e.g. Boyne Hunt = Perth Hunt [composd by Magdalina Stirling of Ardoch c1788 if authenticity's what you want], Graf Spee is derived from Grand Spey etc), and some of the jigs and hornpipes are English. The best bands always borrow tunes and dance forms from all over the place. Planxty's Bulgarian tunes in weird timing spring to mind. Why can't people lighten up and enjoy tunes for their own sake?
Dow
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
PS
Just as an addition to what I said: I think that people would like to think that people play the same bundle of Irish tunes everywhere, in any session around the world. This just isn't so, sorry folks. These tunes will get you round Ireland, and a few New World places like the US and Australia where everyone wants to be Irish. The reality is that sessions around the world are extremely diverse, and a couple of hundred "standard" Irish tunes can act as a sort of lingua franca for everyone. But they're not the be all end all.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Sorry, cuchulain, it wasn't aimed at you. See you said it yourself, you posted "a handful" of tunes "that you play". That's all i'm asking, don't post a whole book of tunes that aren't going to be played in sessions.
I also started to post tunes and recordings because i wanted to start contributing instead of just taking. I did post a couple of tunes that i shouldn't have posted, and i cringe when i read some of my earliest comments in the recordings that i posted. But hey, i'm learning. (I wish i could erase some of the more stoopid things that i posted, though. In this aspect, thesession is like real life.)
Dow, i think you understood the purpose of the site. It is, as you say, "for sessions and the music played at sessions [...] as a valuable international resource for traditional session music to be passed on to other people."
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I'm a bit like Dow. At first I thought it was a site for all sessions.
It became apparent quite quickly that it was ITM so now I tend to be quiet and learn. But as Dow also says so much of the music is common to both. The maid behind the Bar - ITM or the Barmaid - Scottish. 9/8 pipe marches or Slip Jigs? Highlands?
How do you decide. Was Paddy's trip to Scotland written when he was there or when he got back?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Davetnova
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Jeremy,
By way of suggestion... maybe you could add a few words of direction in the tune "submit" page. Not everybody that submits tunes will read this or other threads.
-Troy
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by RTP
other threads on the same subject.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by RTP
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
This looks like it's going to be a continuing point of contention for people. If the general mood is against contamination of the purity of the Irish tradition by tunes from across a body of water to the east or west, then maybe it might be an idea to separate this site into "ITM" and "Other-Tunes-From-Elsewhere-That-You-Must-Never-Play-At-A-Session-Or-You-Will-Not-Be-Welcome".
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Okay. STOP. Stop already. Jeremy has already said it. If you post tunes, then post at least three or four Irish tunes or at least tunes that are common to Irish sessions, to every tune you post that comes from another tradition. There's no need to argue about it. STOP. Both are welcome, but tunes that are common to your session (whether Irish or not) are preferred to tunes that can be considered "foreign". Fer cat's sake.
Zina
Zina
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Mark (Dow) and Dave, we've been through this on other threads, and NO ONE is arguing where the tune's originated from. That's *not* the point.
The question is, do the tunes you (or anybody) want to post fit in the broadly, open-mindedly framed sense of the Irish dance music tradition Jeremy established this site for, and are they played at sessions? Do *you* play--in session with other Irish-trad minded players--the tunes you post?
Yeah, at my local session we do the odd "foreign" tune, and once a month or so, someone spins out some old timey thing. But that's reaching beyond the Irish trad repertoire--just for a moment--because someon'es got a bug in their ear to play that tune. It's accepted, but not energetically encouraged. And too much of it wouldn't be tolerated. There's a local "jam" on another night of the week for people who want to play other stuff. Great.
Frankly, some of us just want people to have an inkling of what *does* get played at Irish sessions (probably mostly those sessions more on the trad end of the spectrum, too) before they post tunes here. Trevor's recent post of Fisher's Hornpipe but in G and with a Welsh name and setting is a good example. I doubt Fisher's is a household tune at Irish sessions these days, but it doesn't hurt to know it either. On the other hand, playing Trevor's setting, at least in the US and Ireland isn't likely to fly too well at 90 percent of the sessions. In fact, this welsh setting is not far off from Daffyd's post of the Irish Waterman (nee Washerwoman) for inappropriateness here. Especially when it'd done on the heels of other non session tunes, and lacking awareness that it might even be an odd setting of an otherwise recognizable tune.
Fact is, there is a substantial body of tunes that get played at Irish sessions that fall well within the tradition, and that we haven't touched yet. So why the rush to post all this (at best) fringe stuff? And if the world needs a place to post Welsh tunes, set it up. Build it and they will come. And then hope that the uninformed masses don't inundate it with Irish tunes.....
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Jeremy does say under the comments section that you can post what you like or don't like about this tune. If a tune sucks & doesn't really belong, I think we should have less reservations about flaming the hell out of it. Whenever this topic comes up all the dingbats who believe that if it's played at a session it's accepted into the tradition, that's not the way it works. There are undrawn lines that once crossed will end a session on the spot.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Mad Baloney
And you'll notice some of us getting bristly about the collars when you imply that we're intolerant of other musical forms because many of us do regularly play lots of other types of music (I play bluegrass, rock, and blues)--but we refrain from doing it at Irish sessions or on this site.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Okay.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
WWWOOOOOOSSSSHHHHH....(sound of an argument deflating). Shucks...what fun is that?
JUST KIDDING!
I think we do accept, respect, and encourage a lot of diversity here--certainly of opinions and even of tunes. That's why we struggle with it openly like this--none of us wants to dictate or live by an encyclopedia of rules. But there are boundaries. That's how you know you're at thesession.org, and not tradlagerphonesociety.org (sorry glauber
or moraviannoseflute.gov (a state-sponsored site) or publictoetapping.com (the British session site).
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Phbbbbbbbbfft to you, Harmon. *snort*
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
What an attention-grabbing discussion title though!
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by milesnagopaleen
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
So...errrrm
Anyone for a drink?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Yeah, mine's a guinness. Does anyone know any jokes?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by milesnagopaleen
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
All the jokes I know would break Jeremy's rule of "be civil".
If you want a laugh, wait for the next person to post a tune and watch it get ripped to pieces in the comments section
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
From a beginer, who doesn't know her arse from her elbow, could somebody please make a "Top Ten Session Tunes," so as I know what to learn!
(Please!)
Becky
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Becky
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
LOL -- oh gosh, Becky...now THERE'S a subject. It's going to be difficult -- tell you what.... take a look at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/888 and http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/110 to give you a start... Good luck!
Zina
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I've been a user since the earlier days I use my computer as a "music stand" when learning tunes through music. After being on the receiving end for a couple of years both in reading music and following discussions I decided to try out posting a tune that was still on my learning list.
At this point there was no specific advice in the past discussions (I searched on posting ethiquettes and ABC pasting) , but the next day there was a big discussion (one could get paranoid from less...
---
There is a vast amount of tunes out there and one of the thrills of going to a session is to come home with an ambition to learn more tunes.
The problem as I see it is how to distinguish the peculiar from the common ground .I remember sending a mail to Jeremy expressing concerns when he changed the-session from his digestable once-per-week-tune-quality-checked-by-Jeremy-in-person to eat-as-much-as-you-can-free-for-all-to-post system.
I think the rumours of the coming death is greatly exaggerated; there are several possible ways of dealing with the problem:
A preventive way would be to make the very first mailing go through some screening process with the possibility for moderators to give some sort of feedback to the accidental contributor. This would somehow restrict the opennes of session.
Maybe a better way would be "post postum" -after the *damage* has been done:
- in addition to the comment section the tunes could be assosiated with an attribute describing to what degree this tune belongs to the "basic repertoire"
- the tunes could be rated in a democratic fashion ensuring that tunes that get a certain score get into the "common ground"
- alternatively a selected few / a group / moderator could classify and rate which tunes should belong in the common ground / basic repertoire.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by MrGanAim
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Aaaaand, jokeswise, I just went back and re-read these threads...damn, some of those are really funny...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/648
for computer geek jokes, and
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/868
for musician jokes...
zls
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Zina, you beat me to it. I couldn't find the link to that "Common Session Tunes" thread to save my life.
Haildor, I suspect Jeremy already filters tunes, though perhaps he'll use a finer mesh after all of this hullabaloo. I kinda like the idea of distinguishing "common" session tunes from the fringe ones. But even that could be tricky, both technically and in deciding which were really "fringe" tunes.
Becky, I love it when someone (and it happens here about every three months) asks "what ten tunes should I learn first?" And the answer inevitably is the top 200-300 of them...
Point being that 10 tunes are a great start, but they won't carry you very far into the average session. Just be patient and persistent and obsessive about learning tunes. You'll get there, one tune at a time, just like everybody else. And enjoy the ride!
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
What sort of novice would build his repetory by trolling through a tune archive? I'm a novice, and what I'm trying to learn is based on what I'm hearing at my sessions. I may go look up a tune to get the notes, but I'm certainly not randomly picking tunes from this (or any other) archive. In fact, I usually only look to see if there are any interesting notes on the tunes I'm learning.
It would be interesting to see some statistics on how often the tunes are referenced and how there used. One thing that occurs to me is that tunes that are rarely or never referenced could be "retired." That would probably go a long way towards thinning out inappropriate tunes.
Scott
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by srt19170
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I think a novice might want to learn tunes from an archive where they can get information on each tune being learnt so that a) they can remember them more easily, and b) they have an idea how their tune would be received at a session. After reading some of the discussions of late, I would definitely make sure I knew "acceptable" tunes before I even set foot in a session, especially those that conform to US standards - then you know you're getting quality [
]. Otherwise you'd run the risk of playing a tune that people are sick of like the Kesh, or playing what might be considered a "fringe" tune. Somewhere in the middle there are some tunes that are acceptable even to the glowering "tune police", who just might do something really nasty to you if you dare to contaminate. Maybe there should be bouncers at the door who would "screen" people for their repertoires and intentions before they even enter. Everyone would have to carry around a computerized "tunes ID card" with a special chip and barcode. Tune offenders could be given points on their card like a driving licence! Anyone who wants to start a set would need to be specially registered as "safe", and a vote taken whereby tunes may be played only after a proposal is seconded and voted for by the majority of players present. New tunes learnt would only be added to a player's card memory chip if delegated tune police accept that player's version as "authentic" and "standard".
Anyway I reckon if you're a novice you should take up an easy instrument like a guitar and become a backer. It's great, you don't have to bother learning any of the tunes, and you can sometimes get free drinks just by sitting there with your guitar. You can pretty much get by just playing a chord of G or D. As long as you play loud and confidently enough, people will think you've been playing for years! Sometimes you need A minor and E minor too, but you don't have to bother with any of that either really.
Sorry I'm stirring again...
I just know that next time I see bb I'm going to need protective armour
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Ah, Mark, I'm starting to wonder if you're one of these lads who plays Waltzing Matilda and Gallipoli at sessions, and then wonders why all the good Irish trad players don't come to that pub anymore....
Seriously though, that's how "session police" work--they get tired of hearing tunes that don't quite fit, and they leave. They start a session somewhere else. Sooner than later, the original place has a free-for-all of lagerphones and didges, where any tune goes. Which sad to say is what's been happening here at the session.org lately. Some really well-informed, talented musicians who used to frequent this site rarely post here anymore. They're tired of being dragged into senseless arguments or being labeled as arrogant or tyrranical or worse just because they have a passion for Irish trad music. And I'm sad to see them go.
If people log on here hoping to find the tunes that make the rounds at Irish sessions, and insights about playing that music, and instead they have to wade through all this rhetoric and dusty manuscript tunes, they'll wonder why we all bother. Lately, I've been wondering the same thing.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Just for the record, I'm with Scott. I really only use the tunes section if I'm having trouble figuring a tune out and don't have it in any of my books. That's how I found this site in the first place. I do like looking up the comments of tunes I know and am working on, to see what others have to say about them. That part is really interesting.
To anyone who says what tunes should I learn first--I suggest going to your local session and bring a tape recorder. A few times at least. Unless of course someone starts a long set of Welsh tunes--then hit the pause button. Just kidding. I think...
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Andee
Hey Will, that's a good analogy how this session is losing regulars because of too many tunes that don't fit. Just like a real session. A session I used to go to regularly I have just about given up on, because of too many R.E.M. songs and the like. Yuck. I go to a session to learn about Irish music. Same for why I come to the site. To discuss and learn with those who share my passion.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Andee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Its true - I'm one of those people that would leave a session if it was even half as annoying as the stuff that has been put on here lately. Read the front page of this site lads - it says its a site where "Traditional Irish Dance Music" can be passed on blah blah blah. Dow knows what I am like - I dont think it is a bad thing to want to keep this site mainly Irish. If you like cajun, bluegrass, Welsh or any of the others - that is fabulous - good on you for it, go start a bluegrass site. Ive said it before and I'll say it again, if you dont want to play irish music - dont go to an Irish session, If you want to play everything - go to a jam session. Is that sooooo hard??? Stop posting these irritating tunes - please - I am begging - who in their right mind would want to bloody learn the irish national anthem -godsakes - I think I'll go post "Skippy the bush Kangaroo"!
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Yes, Dow, and bb has strict instructions to give you a memorable bruise on my behalf. *grin* So long as you know what you're in for when you mouth off like that... hehehe.
Interestingly, no one ever calls anyone a tune nazi when they are saying something that they happen to agree with -- sort of like, there's no such thing as a humble opinion... Hmmm. Jeremy, doess the calling of "tune nazi" fall under the Nazi Principle?
Zina
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Zina, you invoked the Nazi principle on purpose! With full malice and aforethought! Knowing Jeremy will put a lock on further posting in this thread (how long can I go on and get away with it? Well, let's see...I thought I'd post the Canadian national anthem, the version they sung when the Canadian snowboarder had his medal taken away after they caught him celebrating that night with a funny cigarette, it starts, "Oh Cannabis.")
bb, is there some other kind of kangaroo? I mean, don't they all live in the bush?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Dow, it's nothing of the sort, and i think you know it. Many sessions welcome novices. They have to, or they'd die, right? But if the novice wants to play, say, Hootie and The Blowfish repertory, they will let him know that it's the wrong kind of music. That's what's been happening here for a long time, but neither Hootie nor the Blowfish are paying any attention.
The next phase is, as Will says, when the people with new ideas crowd out the old timers, and then it becomes a Hootie and the Blowfish session, instead of an Irish session. The newcomers are happy with it like this, and the old timers (hopefully) go play somewhere else.
Ref: http://www.hootie.com
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Hootie has their own repertory? And other people actually *want* to play it? Well, gosh, maybe we are being too narrow minded.....
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Yeah bb GOOD ON YA MATE! Why haven't you posted Waltzing Matilda yet? By the way, I never called anyone a "tune nazi", certainly not bb - who would have thought it!? I actually think that the best thing would be to delete from the database any tune that has suspect origins, so that the site can be for "Traditional Irish Dance Music" in its purest form. Isn't "Jenny's Chickens" related to some other weirdo Scottish reel - "Sleepy Maggie"? That's got to go. There's something funny about "The Merry Blacksmith" I've always thought... errr, "Big John McNeill" for sure.... I reckon "Lady Ann Montgomery" has a Scottish sounding name - that's enough to justify deleting it. I was always suspicious of "Drowsy Maggie" also. And what about "The Flowers Of Edinburgh"? Now that *has* to go. Its name is even offensive. And as for "Miss McLeod's", well, the Scottish version is even in totally the wrong key and the parts are switched round - *and* the name's wrong. It's just all wrong. Anyway the pure Irish version has Scottish connections so it must also be eliminated out of principle.
Okay, I think it's time to make a stand on Scottish tunes. We must all turn our backs or flounce out of the room when we hear one played or even spoken of, especially by a novice - they'll get the hint eventually. I mean, no offense to the Scots - they are after all quaint old-fashioned people of the hills who speak a strange tongue - think of Braveheart! And yea' they have their tunes, but they're just not Irish.
Quell minority interests, as they will eventually overwhelm the purity of the Irish tradition. No other Celts will do. LONG LIVE IRISH MUSIC! DESTROY CONTAMINATING INFLUENCES!
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
You DO like to talk, don't you, Dow? bb, make that TWO bruises, one on the arm and the other on the leg...
zls
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Actually I was only kidding. Oh well... [sigh]
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I'd just like to point something out here, seeing as many people seem think that I should be the one doing something to "fix" the site.
If you don't like the kind of tunes being posted, you can always redress the balance yourself.
Sure, I can put a stop to people posting inappropriate tunes but that won't make appropriate tunes suddenly spring out of the ether.
If you think that there should be more Irish jigs and reels being submitted, then quit complaining about it and just do it.
For instance: Glauber, the last time you submitted a tune was two months ago. If you think the quality has deteriorated since then, then perhaps part of the reason for that is because you're not submitting any tunes. In light of that, I find it a bit rich that would point novices to the site but tell them that the tunes section isn't much good.
So (and this is addressed to all of you, not just Glauber), if you want to make a change, don't wait around for somebody else to take charge. Just do it.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Jeremy
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Well, this has been fun. The real problem is not the origin of tunes, since some go so far back they could have gone round the Irish Sea four or five times before some Englishman wrote down the “definitive” version from a place he happened to be in and claimed it as the point of origin. Tunes have gone in and out of fashion over the years. There are tunes that are so common nobody plays them any more ( anybody want to write the Oxymoronic Reel?). I know of a session where the players role their eyes if you play a tune that has been played more than twice in the history of Western Civilzation. Which brings us to new tunes. Can an American of Spanish origin living in Rhode Island compose an Irish traditional tune? Where do the guys( please read this as an all inclusive genderless term) from Donegal fit in? Their music is definitely Irish, but is very heavily influenced by traffic, legal and otherwise, with the Scots who started out as Irishman in the first place. And do we deprive all those folks in Cork and Kerry of their polkas since that was a popular European form introduced in the 1840’s and 50’s?
It would be nearly impossible to come up with list of tunes so common they are found at all sessions since many beginner’s tunes fall out of favor with advanced players just from the sheer repetition until they become so common nobody plays them any more and are resurrected 25 years later. No, I think the basic problem we suffer from here at the session.org is that we can’t hear each other. We can’t tell the bluegrass guy that, no, you can’t just make up something in the same key if you don’t know the tune or re-tune your 5-string banjo in the middle of a set of tunes. We can’t sit politely through some Morris Dance tunes and then, without comment, strike up a set of slip jigs. All tunes are potentially Irish tunes until we can hear that they aren’t. I play in a Ceili band because the dancing, for me, rounds out the meaning of Irish dance music. Some session players never see a dancer and think the music is just jigs and reels played a fast as possible. I never seen a discussion of the playing of airs and their relation to sean-nos singing which is commonly held to be the basis of all Irish music. So before we start culling tunes from the archives and banning tunes because we might not find them useful in our own “meatspace” sessions let’s address some of the questions surrounding the the idea that even after centuries of outside influence, emigration, and return there is still an essential Irishness that is recognizible, not from what tune is played, but from how that tune sounds when it is played.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by AOG
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Zina just in case you thought my last response was inappropriate I was talking to Glauber, but his words seem to have been erased by Jeremy...
I'm going to shut up at this stage. I find the whole range of attitudes towards this topic really interesting, but sometimes it gets a bit silly, and that's when I start winding people up for fun and end up offending people. I'm off to don my crash helmet in readiness for the next time I see bb.
Dow
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I'm still being quiet but now I'm learning how to argue in Irish as well as lots of nice stuff about music and techniques.
Is there a cross relationship between Irish arguing and Scottish arguing and has there been any input from the English or Welsh?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Davetnova
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Being a card-carrying "tune-nazi", when the learners to intermediates have played too much morris, I launch into a long Irish set for the experts to crack on with.
On the other hand, if we have had too much "Danny Boy" or Country and Western, I put a stop to this "World Music", and resurect some Northumbrian hornpipes.
The truth is, like sessions, this site should contain Irish tunes .... most of the time.
Its archiving time, Editor!.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Several tunes-nay hundreds!! are very popular in different sessions but are not universal. It could be argued that these tunes along with some lesser known ones should become more universally popular. Also, within each tradition, tunes from other cultures have always been adopted and absorbed.
Perhaps there could be a separate section for new/unusual tunes and another for the standard session repertoire or as already suggested, information re the popularity of these tunes given within the comments section so that people can make up their own minds.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Johannes J
Re: The Sash My Father Wore
In an effort to achieve balance, I have posted "The Sash" to the session tunes as well.
I play this regularly in session along with Merry Ploughboy, Roddy McCauley, Star of County Down, Kelly from Kilane, Dublin In The Green etc. firstly, because they are great marching tunes, and secondly, because there is only one Irishman there - no-one else knows any of the words so everyone likes them and joins in.
Leaving politics out of it, there is nothing wrong with the "soldiers tale" as a march, but you have to jazz it up a bit so it is unsingable.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I just want to let you know, "The Broken Pledge," "Boy of Ballisodare," and "Killavil Reel (Mich Finn's) are not posted here yet. Look through the recording section, you will find there are many, many, so-called traditional Irish tunes to be submitted. thesession.org cannot be dead now.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by slainte
Apologies
I thought long and hard about this discussion while my dog was walking me this morning, and i concluded that i shouldn't have started this in the first place. No matter how useful this site has been to me, it was still wrong for me to try to impose my ideas on how it should be used. It's okay for the site to evolve, and to show that i understand it, i'll post some good tunes that are outside the Irish music session tradition, later when i have some time.
So my apologies to all, especially to Trevor and Dow.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by glauber
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Thanks Glauber, no offence taken.
trevor
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Geez, folks I'm getting the feeling I just wasted a perfectly good rant. No takers on any any of the points raised? This is one of those areas where the discusssion can sharpenen our awareness of what it is we're doing without providing a definitive answer. Its a subject where the guy who knows the truth is most definitely wrong. And, Glauber, why sorry? This goes to root of thing. Thanks for starting it.
AO
AOG
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by AOG
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Be very careful what you say folks as Jeremy appears to be rewriting history to fit the party line
PP
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Pied, when you're done crashing about like a bull in a china shop, let us know.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I don't know whether any of you saw it before the comment was pulled by our esteemed Webmaster, but Brad said his goodbyes, based on his irritation at what the Sessions has become.
Personally, I'm having a great deal of troube seeing the reason for the depths of emotion involved in this issue. If I were in a so-called meatspace session that got overrun by non-trad players, I could see why I might become irritated, because those players essentially have ruined my weekly, regular event. But this isn't real time. It's session-like, but it isn't a session. If I don't like anything I see here, I don't have to get up and walk out, because there's really no one here. It's a lot more like channel-surfing on TV than it is a session. If I'm browsing and find nothing of interest, I can go away and come back another time. Why get all mad about it?
Some people say we're leaving a legacy that'll mislead the beginners, but seriously, what beginner is going to mistake the Irish national anthem for a session tune? What beginner is going to mistake a clearly labelled Welsh tune for an Irish session tune? And the rest of the visitors can do what they're probably already doing: They take a look, shrug and say, "Well, nothing but garbage on at that moment," and they go on to something else.
It is a little silly that 90 percent of the recent postings aren't "pure" Irish, but to paraphrase Jeremy: Don't get mad, get even. Post more and more Irish stuff. If this IS like a TV program, it's a TV program in which we have some control over what is put over the air. Censorship is only one half of the equation. Posting better stuff is the other half.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Tunes, tunes, and their AKA's
Changing the subject slightly - maybe it should be a seperate string - but does anyone else - ie from other parts of the planet - have alternative names for tunes, such as
The Kid on the Mountain Bike,
My Darling's a Sheep,
and so on....this was a craze amongst traditional players here in London a few years ago.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Cuch, I can understand Brad's irritation and in fact share it. This has been something approaching a true session for many of us who have been around since the beginning. We have treated it as such and cared about it as such and supported it as such. And you'd be surprised at the beginners who would indeed be mislead by things like even clearly labelled Welsh tunes -- I see things like this every week, both at the session I run and sessions I have played at.
I have watched players, players that span from experienced with good reputation to outright beginners with no background, come and go here. I've watched some go that I have regretted losing and some go that I haven't regretted at all. I expect that I shall go as well, along with some of the other original members. That's what a session is like as they change and evolve. I imagine in a while that this place will have totally different names that are the most vocal posters than what exists now. Whatever. I find it sad, but that's life. Hopefully those who will take the time to explore the old threads will find some of the information we've left behind us helpful.
Some of us have cared very much about the music and the places where we practise and work on that music, and have included this virtual place among them. Just because you're not one of them and don't understand the viewpoint doesn't mean that the way we've treated this session isn't valid.
Unfortunately, as more and more players share your "it's session-like, but it isn't a session" attitude, I expect that what has made this a wonderful resource will gradually cause The Session to, well, die a slow death. Sad.
Zina
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Hmmm, I feel kind of humbled after glauber's apology and cuchulain's post as well. I guess if Jeremy has no problem with Welsh, etc. tunes, then who are we to argue about it? It's his baby after all. I also agree that this site is not leaving a huge impression or legacy on Irish Traditional music. It's just a buch of us obsessives chatting and having fun. I guess we would be best off if we kept it that way--fun.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Andee
Hey Zina, looks like we are posting at the same time. How do we stay civil and have fun and work out these differences, too? I kind of look up to you and Will as the big sister and big brother of the session.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Andee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Perhaps there should be no 'Discussions' section at all. The old axiom says that 'opinions are best kept to themselves'. I come here mostly for the tunes and the tunes alone. Brad now knows what it feels like to be on the other end. If some people leave, oh well. The Session's life is not based on one or two people. The Session will continue until the creator chooses to shut it down. The Session will go on.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Aiki
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
LOL -- what, are you calling me old? *grin* I suppose if being mouthy is a definition of a big sister, well then, I would qualify -- so my younger sisters would say, at any rate. So I guess right now I'll be mouthy about your question, Andee.
Well, I'd say that staying civil when talking about things you care about a lot takes stepping aside from your feelings and examining what your post will look like to someone who disagrees with you, which is much easier said than done. I've had my own share of hissy fits here, as you may have noted! So my comments are going to be the ideal, which I can't always reach myself, mind.
Methods for coping with the urge to rant at a deserving someone have ranged from waiting 24 hours before posting to writing your first reaction down in a word processing program and then throwing it away and starting over again.
Not including personal comments (which includes slurring a country of origin in a wide-ranging fling) is a good idea. Adding disclaimers that this is only your personal opinion is a good idea. If you find yourself applying a label of any kind in reference to someone, that's a red flag. As Jeremy said, if you would not like to be on the receiving end of a comment, don't post it.
As Jeremy also said, we each have personal responsibility for our posts. That is part of the reason why I always sign my posts and why I changed, fairly early on, my nickname to my actual name. I would hope that anything I post here is something I would say to someone's face. I expect my posts to be things that add to or detract from my reputation in what is, after all, a very small community globally.
We can disagree with others publically. We can even be quite sharp with each other. But the other person on the other end of that Internet connection deserves consideration as a person with their own opinions. If we disagree with those opinions, well then, fine, go ahead and say so. Just do so in a way that respects that the other person has a right to their stupid opinion. *grin*
By the by, there's a point at which trying to wind someone up (ahem -- *grin*) actively doesn't help matters. If someone feels so very strongly about something that they cannot stay civil or seem to be going past what you might consider the norm, it's worth noting that the subject should probably be dropped with a "let's just agree to disagree". When I was a kid and my sisters and I were running around playing and the play escalated past a certain point, my dad, at one point or another, would warn us to calm down a bit, saying, "kids, somebody's about to get hurt." (And he didn't mean by him.) Son of a gun, he was always right. Now that I'm a "grown-up", I know how he knew, but back then, we thought it was this amazing thing he could do.
My dad would have said that somewhere about, oh, halfway through this thread.
Finally, none of us are going to change someone else's mind. If their mind is made up, it's made up. The only thing you can do is throw out your own viewpoint and see if maybe they'll get something from it.
Is that enough mouthiness for the day? I think so. You probably do too, by now.
Zina
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Ah Aiki -- then you're missing out on a great deal of what makes Irish trad, Irish trad. I hope that in your online life you get more out of your sessions than that!
By the way, Brad is more than capable of taking the heat in the kitchen. Look through some of the back threads for proof of that. We go back a long ways, and we shall go forward a long ways.
zls
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Oops, sorry, I meant your offline line.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
LOL -- never mind, I washed my fingers this morning and can't do a thing with them.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
AOG, I haven't spoken to your post because I happen to agree with you.
Excellent points.
Zina
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Tunes, tunes, and long life to thesession.org
Friends,
I have said it before and I will say it again. Jeremy has provided an awesome site for us. In my mind it is a masterpiece. When you combine that with all of you it makes the site addicting.
As for the music - I still get more than I can keep up with. I aim for the tunes that inspire the hell out of me. For instance, recent postings of the Beauty Spot and Paddy's trip to Scotland are on my learning list now. I have learned some of the very best tunes off of this site. It's like a candy shop where I can hear a great tune off a CD and find it right here many times. When I hear a great session tune, I can find it here 8 out of ten times. I LOVE that.
I am also concerned about the beginners who might take every tune in this collection and believe that it is Irish traditional. As someone suggested - If we let them know that it is American or such they might move on.
It's funny - I would say that this site is near 100% perfect for me even though it caters to thousands and thousands of people. That’s amazing. I have learned many things that I might never have learned by attending sessions for the rest of my life. I can tolerate the few things that I disagree with because I get so much more out it than I can ever put it. I learn from the diverse opinions as well. You all have been my teachers since I started at the session. Thanks for that.
Peace,
Mark
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Mark Cordova
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Thanks Zina, loved your post--very level headed, fair, and to the point. Not mouthy at all.
Mark--I ditto what you say and Peace as well
Oh, and Zina--if you are older than me, I'm sure it's not by much!! I used to sign my posts in the very beginning, but I soon realized that my name comes up after each one anyway--and it's my real name, too.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Andee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I think it's strange to decry the demise of the clubbiness that the pioneers of this site have always enjoyed in the same thread that we shout "Please stop!" to the newcomer that dares suggest he has been made to feel less than welcome here.
In any case, I in no way am advocating a cavalier attitude toward the Session just because I think it is session-like but not a real session. If a person comes to your real session, you can hassle him into leaving, and then, presumably, he will take his offense with him. Here, if someone posts an inappropriate tune, it remains until Jeremy excises it, and it doesn't matter how much you denounce the person who posted it. It's kind of an important distinction.
To me, the analogy works like this: if someone lets their dog defecate on the sidewalk, I should either step over it or take the time to clean it up. That doesn't mean the person should let their dog do it, but my whining about it or refusing to use the sidewalk ever again is just sort of the wrong way to go, since it doesn't solve anything. That's all I'm trying to say.
I don't and never did want to supplant the veterans of this site. I agree with Zina -- that would be sad. How do we collectively clean up or step around this pile on the sidewalk? Or should we newbies just get off the sidewalk?
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
LOL -- What's so strange about that, Cuch? Makes perfect sense to me...
Let's face it -- there IS a clubbiness to Irish trad music and the usual session. Either you know what you're doing in order to be accepted as part of that club, or you're willing to learn in order to become part of that club, or you decide you want to change the club over in your own image. Naturally you're going to get pushback from the members of the club if you choose the latter path.
And of course some of the club members are going to bail if the club isn't what they want to hang out with any longer.
And of course sooner or later people are going to look around and say, wow, what happened, this session is so different than it used to be?
Better, worse...that's a point of view. We make up our collective minds what The Session is going to be, the general tenor of the thing, the guideposts by which we'll steer our direction. Jeremy has his guidelines, and good ones they are, but whether this is going to be a repository for tunes outside the tradition is, as you say, an important distinction for a many people who very much care about the tradition.
Zina
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
But unlike a real session, if you veterans keep doing what you're doing, you get to keep doing what you're doing. Nothing needs to stop that, unless you yourselves decide to stop. If you and other veterans hold a session for Irish music and I come with a heavily amplified noseflute, I can take over, spoil everything, dominate until you collectively throw my butt out the door. But here, bad posts by non-veterans don't undo your good work unless you stop doing your good work. All I'm saying is, keep doing what you're doing. Brad doesn't need to walk off in a huff. He should keep posting -- threads, tunes, sessions, recordings -- and only respond to or elaborate upon the flawless and lovely stuff that you veterans keep churning out. It's like how the adults keep up their adult-like conversations at family gatherings, even though the kids are chattering and chasing each other through the room.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I haven't been posting long. I don't post often. Thats because I have nothing to match the experience on this site. There are many , well a few, sites on the internet with good collections of traditional tunes, in various formats.
The special thing about this site is the exchange of opinions, I would think based on experience, about the history, the styles, the ornament, the suitability of tunes, ettiquette, the mechanics of playing and much more.
It is this community that is valuable, tunes are fairly easily recorded for posterity. Tradition is also about behaviour, habits and interaction.
I didn't mean to belittle the tunes section. It is great and again one of the best bits about the tunes list is the comments section, I think it may be unique.
So please, everyone, keep it going. I ask this purely selfishly.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Davetnova
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Gosh darnit, I just typed a reply & it *poofed*....
Anyway, here's my $.02 USD. Cuchulain continues to post comments that resonate with me. As a 'beginner' to ITM (btw when can I stop being a beginner? is there a tune quota?) I"m getting the heck off the sidewalk. I'm still racked with guilt over posting 2 Altan tunes that I had not personally played nor had transcribed myself. As learning ABC is WAY down on my list of priorities, & since I have virutally nothing new to contribute to this site as a player, you won't find me posting any tunes any time soon, but nor shall you hear me complaining about the 'purity' of the site.
In terms of clubbiness, those of us out in the middle of nowhere can't afford to be cliquish snobs. My closest 'real ITM' session is about 6 hours away in Phoenix, 2 1/2 hours to a contra band in Flagstaff. As it is, I get lots of eye rolls when I start off a set of Irish jigs in Flag, but hey, I'm the guest, I'll play what they play right? B/c of this, a fair number of tunes I know are contra tunes, but thanks to thesession.org & the tune-police tune-scanner I got from Dow, I'll never start off Bottom of the Punchbowl in mixed company & wonder why half the peeps walk out.
I was just discussing this notion of elitism with my fiddle player, telling her about this thread as well as a recent experience I had at a session in Phoenix. Our local ITM group is pulled together out of laughter & fun moreso than musical integrity, so to the relief of everyone, you won't be hearing us play at a session near you anytime soon (except you Andee, I'm rehearsing my version of "I Am Superman!"). I like that this site is exclusionary if it helps preserve 'the grand ITM tradition,' but in my opinion, you can't have it both ways. You have to be inclusive OR exclusive, & up til now I've felt this site to be very inclusive. However, in either case, you are bound to lose the novices or the greats.
btw if any of you ask me over the summer if I know "The Spotted Pony" or "Nixon's Farewell," I shall adamently deny it.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Wow 6 hours to a real session! Damn, that's too far. Emily, have you thought about moving?
Joyce
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by JMH
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
But Emily, you did a grand job of posting Heathery Cruach and Glory Reel! And that's the kind of participation I think we should all encourage, though you might have felt better about it if you had played the tunes a while before typing them in here. Live and learn. I did the same thing when I first started here.
Since we're on this dog-poop-on-the-sidewalk analaogy, I want to point out that what some of us have tried to do is gently ask the person walking the dog to clean up after their pet. This is how courteous society works in civilized places. I know, because I clean up after my dogs (who usually defer and wait to get home before unloading anyway...so we clean up our own yard, and our neighbors don't mind seeing our dogs walk by their houses).
That's all I was trying to do in my earlier threads about posting tunes--ask a few people to reflect on the stated purpose of this site (it's on the opening page) and use a sense of discretion when posting tunes, similar to how they would before trotting a new tune out at a meatspace Irish session. I think this current thread has gotten out of hand. There are more constructive ways to talk about differences of opinion. And the tune comments have been more interesting, anyway.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
You're right Will, I should have played them before I posted them, but it never occurred to me before I posted them, I was too greedy in my desire to see the little black dots. From now on, I will convert ABCs privately, & then possibly send an email to those-who-might-know-better, & then think about posting.
Joyce, yeah I will re-emerge to civilization soon enough, but right now the benefits of extreme rural living are for the moment outweighing the rat race I left behind on the East Coast. My rolls stink & I have no teacher, but someday my rolls will kick butt & I'll learn from great players, but until then, I'm doing OK, & thesession.org has been a huge help in that regard. Thanks again Jeremy, for such a fabulous site.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
No harm done Emily. Though it does point out another way that the chance to post tunes can be an attractive nuisance. It had never occurred to me before that some people were using thesession.org tune section simply to convert abcs to sheet music (I have my own transcription software on my hard drive).
I'm hoping we're all agreed that we don't want to see too much of *that* on this site?
But Em, you did a good job of it, and those are fun tunes to boot, so don't beat yourself up over it.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Taking up a point I tried to introduce earlier in regards to Emily's assessment of her rolls. At first I thought she was hiding in the desert because she couldn’t bake very well then I remembered where we were and thought, That's it! She may have trouble learning rolls because of isolation, yet she has access to this wonderful machine that can produce sounds from blips of electricity. I recall a while back a swapping of sound files, but not where they were located. Since rolls, cuts, figure-8 bowings etc. are what make Irish music Irish and the emphasis given to the various components forms the basis of the reputed regional styles maybe we can shift this discussion to the use of sound files (As Jeremy's head explodes contemplating massive server overload) to help out some of the beginner's or anybody with a question. Suppose we post recordings of the same tune, say Miss McLeod's, in Scots, Cape Breton, American Old Timey, and various Irish styles so that the newbie can tell the difference. Some of us could post examples of how we play various ornaments and where we put them.
This may help short circuit alot of opinion by simply dealing with the musical factiod as presented.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by AOG
How to change from letters to dots
Thesession.org is not a good tool to use simply to generated printed music. The conversion process is not instant, and there is no way to fix it after it's done. But there are options:
To convert from ABC to sheet music, use this:
http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
(use the PDF option, if you have Acrobat Reader)
Another possibility:
http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/ABCcontrib.html
The best thing to do is to use one of these to check the output and make sure it's right, *before* posting to thesession.
Note: both of the sites mentioned above also have postable tune archives, besides the conversion tool.
g
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by glauber
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I love AOG's suggestion, or some version of it. What about getting the braintrust that is the Session to work together to compile an analysis of the ornaments that make Irish music Irish? I'm sure it's in here, scattered among 1,000 different postings, but would it be great to have a focussed analysis of it here!
Fluters and whistlers had a discussion on a recent thread -- I found it interesting and valuable. I can hear ornaments on recordings or even live, but I admit I can't discern exactly what's happening, so I try to approximate them by wiggling my fingers. Not really acceptible, I realize.
Why don't we kiss and make up, so we get get at it?
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
LOLOL cuch, you crack me up I swear.
glauber, thanks for the additional links, I shall peruse them in the near future. I always thoroughly enjoy your postings, & this one was no different (ie the start of this discussion). I never hope you feel you have to censor yourself, you have always been a HUGE help to me & tons of others on this site, so I'm hoping to see more tunes from you!! ;)
aog, I can bake OK, but since I've been on that low-carb diet lately, heh, you would do better to try my Seared Salmon Stuffed with Crab Meat! As for posting non-ITM versions of various tunes, ack! Didn't we just come from there??
& thanks again Will for the reassurance re posting tunes, but I am now converted to the no-brainless-plagiarizing camp, where, I do believe trevor was coming from when he made the argument not to listen to other musicians before a big recital, but that's neither here nor there....
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Okay, I can't even last 24 hours with my mouth shut - you're right Zina.
I think Cuchulain54's hit the nail on the head. However much the "regulars" would like this to be a real session, it isn't. And it's pointless to bring baggage from real-life sessions to it. Posting a tune here is not the same as playing a tune in a session. If someone plays a tune which the regulars of a session don't like, they have to either sit there and hear it out, or they can be rude and play over the top of it. Here, if you don't like a tune that's been posted - hello?! ignore it! You don't have to waste your time acknowledging that it's there even. You don't have to open it up and read the ABC and comments. You don't have to listen to the sound file. If you want, you can post a tune at exactly the same time as someone else without being in the least bit rude. At the same time, if you want to be rude about someone or their tunes, you can.
Without meaning to offend the regulars: it seems that some imagine this as a small group of people getting together and swapping tunes. The fact is, we're being spied upon. First of all there are a huge number of members on this site, many of whom stay silent and observe. This doesn't include web surfers who use this as an index to complement the likes of JC's and Henrik Norbeck's. They nick our tunes and ideas, and read our discussions and comments, then leave without trace. I know because I used to be one of them. I used this site for months (years) as a resource before I ever got round to becoming a member and contributing.
Personally, I would be gutted to see any of the people leave who have been contributing for a long time. I don't understand at all why Brad has decided to leave. I thought he was a nice guy with a lot of knowledge to contribute, but it's simply pointless to leave because you feel you're being "ousted" in some way by newcomers. I would hope that newcomers would respect the regulars and the whole continuing culture of this website, and realise that it exists. But, unlike a real session - and this is what it boils down to - it is not possible for newcomers to overwhelm or oust the established members in any way, shape or form. That's why you must view any newcomer's contributions merely as a new resource to draw on, and not as any type of threat. They cannot possibly affect what you're doing, and the ongoing community and culture of this site, which has become an institution in itself. That is, unless the regulars decide to leave. If they leave, then this website is too much of a big, international thing to ever die. It would just be that it would have needlessly lost the valuable contributions of those particular people.
Another thing: people seem to be especially against Welsh tunes. Okay, the Welsh tunes I have heard I haven't particularly liked, and I wouldn't go out of my way to play them, because I have no affinity with them. I've never even been to Wales. But there just might be a few real gems of tunes there somewhere, so I wouldn't mind just having a look at the tunes as they get posted here. If I don't like them: fine. What these tunes certainly aren't going to do is overwhelm the Irish tunes on this site and become the majority - ever. There are only one or two people who have posted only a handful of Welsh tunes thus far. With all the hundreds of people interested only in Irish music on this site, do you honestly think that it's eventually going to get "taken over" by Welsh tunes? Get real.
Minority interests such as Welsh music I would tend to liken to the Welsh language. Welsh people have a lot of pride in their language, and it has been under threat for a long time. The Welsh push for Welsh language use in as many areas of society as possible. But however hard they push, the Welsh language is never going to overwhelm the dominant culture and displace English. That's not how power works in society. In the same way, I think regulars here hold a certain amount of power that can be misused to make newcomers feel left out and unwelcome. If everyone was a bit more tolerant and directed their energies into posting more of the tunes they play, then there's no reason why this website should ever die.
And by the way, I think it's a huge insult to Jeremy's creation to even suggest that it might.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I've got a theory why Cuch, or anyone else for that matter, can find it so difficult to identify what is going on in an ornament played on a recording or live.
Apparently it's next to impossible for the ear to distinguish clearly separate notes in a sequence played at a rate of more than about 18 notes per second. If you take a reel played at 1/4=240 (which is very moderate for some players) then you're getting eight 1/8 notes per second. You've only got to squeeze three or more ornament notes into the time of an 1/8 note and you're comfortably exceeding that 18 notes per second limit. The ear may not be quite able to make out what is going on at that speed and interprets it as a "splurge" of sound or perhaps even as a percussive effect. I suspect this may be what is happening when you hear some of Tommy People's playing, for example.
Looking at a live performance using video is probably not much help because that has a top limit of 30 fps, and fingers playing a high speed ornament will become a blur at critical moments.
The only practicable way to work out exactly what's going on is to download the audio onto a hard drive and look at the waveform in millisecond detail using a wave editor in conjunction with a frequency analyzer to tell you what the wave frequency, and therefore the pitch of the note, is at any point in the waveform.
I'll guess that you'll then probably find some high speed ornaments cannot be strictly notatable in any notation known to man!
PS: Cool Edit 2000 is an easily accessible sound editor that does all of what I've described, except actually printing out the music.
trevor
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Mark (Dow), you're misunderstanding some folks here. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trying to get you to shut up or quit participating. But I at least hope you can participate in a more constructive way...presuming to know what us lifers here at the session understand about who uses the site is putting thoughts and words in our heads that are not there (we're quite aware that several hundreds of people lurk through here--that's one of my main concerns about tunes and discussions that go so far afield (see the old thread about Celine Dion : - ) ) Zina's sense of "club" extends to everyone around the world who plays this music with passion, not just her "favorite" posters here at thesession.org. Another word might be "community." Sure it's a diverse community, with divergences of opinion and people who will never see eye to eye. But it's still a distinct community--at sessions and at sites like this--from those that form around other types of music. All anyone is asking is that newcomers respect that distinct sense of community (based on Irish trad music) and the sensibilities of the people here when they choose to join in.
Trevor, I'm sorry but I had to laugh when you said that looking at the waveforms is the "only practicable" way to understand Irish ornamentation. I suppose that would be "one" way, but in 20 years of playing, I've found it's very effective to just listen, ask questions from other players, and experiment. On one hand, everyone has their own personal sense of timing on cut notes, rolls, triplets, etc. That's partly why you can tell Bobby Casey apart from P.J. Hayes or James Kelly or Sean Smyth or Kevin Burke, etc. On the other hand, everyone who plays within the tradition ends up with ornaments that sound "Irish." So there's some commonality too. My rolls sound so much like other more accomplished Irish fiddlers that no one questions whether I'm an experienced Irish fiddler. But I've never once seen a waveform on my hard drive, and I'm just some post-war suburban Yank baby boomer who fell in love with the tchunes years ago and stuck with it.
Dow (Mark), what I just wrote to Trevor is a good example of why some of us worry about stuff that gets posted on this site. Trevor's hi-tech idea is interesting, plausible, perhaps even helpful to other technophiles out there. But it's coming at the music from a really strange, untraditional way. I hope newbies to the music don't take it at it's word, because they'd be missing a big point of trad music: learning by ear and echoing what they hear other players doing on their instruments. I hope you can let some of us contradict and even joke about things we disagree with on this site, without you stomping off yourself (Brad will be back someday) or escalating the rhetoric.
For me, it's the lack of really listening to each other that's getting tiresome.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I appreciate some of Dow's comments.
Like him, I really can't understand why Brad has decided to leave. Sure, he left once before but that was because he was insulted. I rectified that situation by getting rid of the offending party. This time, though, I just have no idea what's happened to prompt his dramatic departure.
When people I really respect decide to leave the site, I can't help but ask myself what I'm doing wrong.
Also, when people whose opinion I really respect start talking about the "death" of The Session... well, that really saddens me.
I try not to let it get to me. Nearly all of the comments I usually read about the site are positive. Anyway, like I've said elsewhere, moaning about what you don't like about the site won't get you anywhere unless you're willing to back it up with active participation to make The Session the site you want it to be.
Dow really hit the nail on the head when he said:
"If everyone was a bit more tolerant and directed their energies into posting more of the tunes they play, then there's no reason why this website should ever die."
However, Dow, when it comes to Welsh tunes: there's nothing wrong with them, but they really deserve their own website, don't you think?
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Jeremy
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I agree about the only posting apropriate tunes.....I'm just a beginner and need guidance with which tunes are good to play at sessions......I'm too inexperienced to know the difference between inapropriate and apropriate....just thought I'd mention that for the future!
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by BluFiddle
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
On decoding ornamentation – I agree with Will re listening and talking to players, but Trevor (and those who live on Indian reservations!) might be interested in the shareware programme Amazing Slow Downer and other such programmes which allow you to slow an audio recording down whilst maintaining pitch so you can hear what’s going on and still play along in the right key – put the programme title into a search engine and you should find it.
On the rest of this thread… I’m a complete newcomer to ITM but all this is exactly analogous to the problems we have in early music societies. The “what is early music” debate rages as hotly as the “what is ITM” and “what is session music” debates.
I understand Dow’s point about simply ignoring tunes that you might consider inappropriate.
I do believe though that if The Session is to have any sort of “teaching role”, for want of a better term, for newcomers/the general public, then it is appropriate to point out when something is getting towards the fringes of “the tradition”.
To illustrate my point with a parallel from my early music life… my early music society exists to promote historically-informed performances on period instruments. It actively encourages people to bring modern instruments to our workshops so that everyone can learn to play this music better and to some extent there is even support for contemporary compositions written for period instruments. However if we are to stage a performance under the auspices of the Early Music Association for the purpose of giving the general public a demonstration of historically informed performance on period instruments, we will not use modern instruments and we will not play contemporary music, even though those things have their place within the early music community. Amongst a gathering of people steeped in a particular tradition, excursions towards the fringes don’t confuse or mislead anybody but when you’re approaching a concept such as “early music” or ITM from the outside it’s nice for a beginner to be able to find out what is considered unquestionably part of the tradition, what is considered debatable and what 99% of people think is on the outer limit.
Sometimes you do have to rein people in to avoid PR disasters. We had one person in EMA who was keen to do a public education/promote the EMA performance with a flat-back mandolin quartet who were going to play Mozart. “Mandolin is an early instrument and Mozart wrote some music before the “cut off date” so what’s the problem?” seemed to be the rationale.
As part of a mandolin orchestra concert that would have been just great. Maybe it would have been OK at an EMA members’ function, though many would have thought it inappropriate. At least it wouldn’t have sent anybody trying to learn about EM off in a direction that simply wasn’t EM at all. But there was no way that playing Classical quartet transcriptions for instruments not used in that period, and on 20th c. versions of those instruments not used in that period, was going to teach Fred Public a blessed thing about what the EMA exists to promote. This person didn’t seem to understand at all and after several months of just not fitting in, left the society.
So, in summary, FWIW from my ITM beginner’s viewpoint, it seems OK amongst a group of aficionados to allow music ranging from hard-core right-in-the-centre stuff to stuff that’s almost out of range but when education comes into it, it helps to identify where this stuff fits so that those trying to learn (like me) can easily find out when something might be considered a bit off the beaten track.
The Session does not have this public face/members-only face split that my EM society does, so it’s difficult to say “we’ll allow this amongst consenting adults at membership functions but not when we put on an educational display” which I suppose is where a lot of the problem occurs – everything on The Session is out there all the time for everyone, confused neophyte or hard-core old-timer.
From my viewpoint, as long as experienced folk continue to provide guidance in the comments column, and I don’t find myself looking at several new tunes in a row every week that are generally considered on the outer limits, then I can learn what I hope to learn from this site.
Guess that’s a long-winded way of saying I agree with earlier comments re the ratio of “Irish/session tunes” to “other tunes” and requests for folks to use the comments section.
Thanks Jeremy, and to everyone who posts and comments, for giving me this free learning resource!
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Tish
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
can we play now?
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Jeremy--don't feel badly!! i don't know if I've thanked you yet for all of your hard work. You certainly can't please everyone, and even those with gripes still love this site. I still kind of consider myself a newcomer--signed up in Sept. as soon as I discovered this site. What a goldmine it has been. Besides my teacher, I don't have anyone to talk about this stuff with in such depth. And my teacher's so busy anyway to really get into stuff the way we do here.
Don't get discouraged, Jeremy--you are doing a terrific job!
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Andee
The trouble with tribbles
Jeremy,
there's nothing wrong. As a moderator, you have a very "hands off" style and, as most things in life, this has advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are obvious. One of the disadvantages, however, is that sometimes it's hard to know what you want, and we waste time playing "Jeremy's Oracle."
For example, when i posted my "apology" above, i was really convinced that i had been wrong, that it was ok for thesession to evolve into a site for all kinds of music, not just Irish session music. I was going to join the crowd and post a couple of Brazilian "choros".
Then you posted your "rules" message, which made clear that it wasn't that at all. You went on and got rid of some of the most offending tunes, discussions, etc. All this is great.
But if you want to understand why Brad, Will and me get unhappy sometimes, think of all the time we spend trying to convince people that they should concentrate on the Irish tradition, but getting no visible results. We don't like telling people that they're wrong; we don't like putting unfavorable comments in tunes, etc; we do it because we love this site, it seemed necessary, and nobody else was doing it. We have jobs and busy lifes, and it's hard to justify doing these unpleasant things when there are so many pleasant and/or urgent things that also need to be done. I definitely should have been in bed an hour ago; instead i'm writing and rewriting this post, just because i don't want you to be discouraged.
So there. Thank you enormously for thesession. Right now, i've just had a bad experience and even got paraded as an example of how things should not be done, so it's probably best if i keep a low profile for a while at least until this discussion moves to the second page and dies. But this in no way reduces the value of this site. Later!
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by glauber
Virtuality vs. reality?
Ah, well. Mark/Dow, let me tell you now...this is more like a regular meatspace session than you might think. Fer instance -- you know bb. I know bb, though I haven't met her in person. She even knows people I know, been in the same pubs I've been in. Like in Ireland where the first forty five minutes of meeting someone new is spent figuring who you're related to and who you know in common, we do that here. *grin* My advice the next time you see bb is: duck. Heh.
Will gave you what is essentially exactly what I would have said up above about *your* comments on *my* comments (although Will is a better writer than I am and so he said it shorter!). I am completely content to let him do so, and he got it spot on, which I'd trust him to do on quite a few subjects. Although I've never met Will in person, I've known him now since the beginning of The Session. We've had our spats and our misunderstandings and apologies and back history that newcomers to The Session know nothing about. Just like at a meatspace session. Someone making assumptions about the relationships between some of us old The Session-fogeys would be walking a perilous line -- just like it would be Not A Good Move to walk into a meatspace session and just assume things about the relationships between the players there.
Is it exactly the same? No. In some ways it's better. The outer circle of The Session is a LOT bigger than your normal outer circle at a given session. Couldn't fit everyone in at your usual pub. Having the ability to pass tunes around like we do is such a gift. Making the friends I've made is an even bigger gift. I'd open and have opened my home to people I've never met but through here, from the most far-flung places.
Part of my field of study used to be studying Computer-Mediated Communications. And the community we've built here (and continue to build) using CMC is a valid, living one for those who choose to see it as such. The ability to see this site as a true community leads to so many other wonderful things for me. And I feel a little sorry for anyone not able to share in that sense of community here.
Will The Session ever die? I doubt it, even if Jeremy ever hauls the files off the servers -- it'd live in a lot of relationships and friendships and personal history. Can its present form die? Oh yes. Imagine this site without a sense of community, just an archive of tunes, for instance. Or imagine it without a sense of humor. Or without the discussions that ramble on and off subject, to the dismay of some and the enjoyment of others. It'd be *different*, of course -- not always a bad thing, not always a good thing. There's some of us who care fiercely about what we think of as a good thing here and who will actually care emotionally about it changing away from what we believe it to be.
Zina
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Zina, my comments weren't directed entirely at your comments! Actually it's only the discussions that get personal in an attacking way which really bother me. I guess what I said above was my way of saying "Zina don't you dare think of leaving the session, because it'll do no good for yourself or anyone else". And the reason I say that is because your contributions to the site are interesting, well-informed and humorous, and if you go, the site loses that. So don't you dare. What I was trying to say was, your leaving would have a different effect from leaving a real session - no-one wins. Do you see what I mean? And Will, I know that you enjoy a good debate, (and you're easier than I thought to wind up!) I appreciate and understand the connection some of the regulars here have with this site, and I'm not dissing that. I just think we have to remind ourselves exactly what this website is and how it functions. That's why discussions like this (and Jeremy's new one above) are so important.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Dow
By the way, Will, I was never going to stomp off, and have never said so. (I might not post tunes for a while, until things chill out a bit tho'). And I don't accept that I'm "escalating the rhetoric" - I'm merely stating my point of view, same as you're doing; it's just that it happens to be different to the opinions of some other people, but that's okay isn't it? And all the stuff about "tune police", well that's me being silly and fooling around - the English love irony [not sarcasm].
As for Trevor, his approach is just different from yours, and it's interesting because of it. He's not hurting or threatening you by thinking about waveforms, it's just different. It's nothing to worry about, (unless of course he hacks into the system and destroys the whole database!)
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Sorry Cuch, I went and played for 3 hours at my local taproom, and now I'm back and wishing this site was as crazily coherent and engaging and sessionish as it used to be.
I'm a writer and editor by trade. I get paid to be nit picky. So I feel the urge to wade in and get nit picky when Jeremy writes:
"Dow really hit the nail on the head when he said:
'If everyone was a bit more tolerant and directed their energies into posting more of the tunes they play, then there's no reason why this website should ever die.'"
"However, Dow, when it comes to Welsh tunes: there's nothing wrong with them, but they really deserve their own website, don't you think?"
I'd agree if it said: "directed more of their energies into posting more of the tunes they play at [IRISH] sessions...."
Is it just me, or are some people here talking about their local sessions that include a wider range of music? Maybe Trevor and Daffyd play at sessions where Welsh tunes are welcome and part and parcel of the evening's tunage. Maybe Mark/Dow plays world music at his session. Maybe Glauber and the Cariocas (good name for a band!) play samba every other set.
But none of that is why I come to thesession.org. I come here for Irish tunes, and there are still hundreds or thousands well within the tradition that I want to learn, never mind half a lifetime of picking up jigs and reels and hornpipes and (even - gasp!) polkas. I *don't* come here to learn the Blink 182 songs my son and I play on electric guitars, or the French Canadian tunes I heard last summer during a music festival, or the Cajun two step a friend of mine wants me to play with her.
Why is it so hard to respect that the focus of this site is Irish trad dance music, as it's commonly played at died in the wool Irish music sessions? I've heard McKenna's and the Torn Jacket and the Monaghan Jig at sessions in Washington D.C., Helena MT, and Vancouver B.C. I've heard the same tunes on under-the-vest tapes from pubs in Galway, Doolin, and somebody's kitchen in Enniskerry. Why aren't we talking about these tunes here? 'Cause we're wading through Welsh harp tunes and moravian nose flute tunes and national anthems. And when that eats up too much time, in a rather unpleasant way, then I think about what I'd rather be doing. That's probably why Brad rode into the sunset.
What it comes down to for me is that I spend no small amount of time and energy defending my local session against people who want to do Pogues' songs or play bluegrass boom-chuck guitar en masse. I usually steer them to the open mic night down the street....
So in the end, I agree with Jeremy, but wish he'd be more specific and emphatic: This site is for Irish trad dance music. If that's too narrow for you, start a World Music site. That'd be a great addition to the web, and a much more broadly inclusive (by design and definition) place to share tunes of all persuasions. And you can post a link here.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Will, this is silly, we're going round in circles. What you say implies that all you're interested in is Irish trad dance music, but you've said in other threads that you're fine with a smattering of tunes from elsewhere (I thought I came across one of your compositions the other day on this site but I could be wrong - does that get played at sessions?) I'm not talking about world music. I think we're saying the same thing really, i.e. that you want people to post tunes that are played at Irish sessions wherever. But read through some of your postings - it doesn't come across like that...
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Dow
Mark, we posted at the same time. But please go back and read my earlier posts. I never said Trevor was "hurting me." What I said is that "it's coming at the music from a really strange, untraditional way. I hope newbies to the music don't take it at it's word, because they'd be missing a big point of trad music: learning by ear and echoing what they hear other players doing on their instruments."
That doesn't hurt me at all, but it would still be a shame. And, to a trad musician, it just seems incredibly off the wall (and a bit narrow-minded) to say that studying waveforms on your computer is the "only practicable" way to learn Irish trad ornamentation. Communication is difficult enough as it is. It rarely helps to talk in absolutes, especially when lots of people are listening in, all with varying degrees of experience and levels of understanding. Same with long tirades sans abundant smiley faces about tune police and i.d. cards for access to sessions.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I agree it is strange.
As for the tune police post: I thought that what I was saying was so utterly ridiculous and silly that it couldn't possibly be taken seriously by anyone. Please take it with a large fistful of salt as it was meant.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Dow
Heh...I agree...as silly as it gets. But I still don't feel "heard."
Don't get us started on original compositions. Many people write tunes in a trad style...and some of them do end up being widely played in sessions. that's how we got Cooley's and Brendan Tonro's and Martin Wynne's and the Kerfunteun Jig and all those wonderful Paddy Fahy's. As for my own tunes, well, yeah. A jig I wrote does get played in sessions. And last I heard, a reel of mine may end up on a cd being laid down by a band in Scotland. That's how it works. But it works because those "new" tunes fit in the tradition.
If you do go back and read my earlier posts and threads and comments in the tune archives, I think what you see is that I've tried to be a voice for discretion and moderation--from both sides. You're right, I don't mind a scattering of "foreign" or non-trad tunes here--particularly if they're just amazing, soul-rending tunes. (I really don't mean to keep picking on Trevor, but I don't put Y Dynwr in that category.) On the other hand, I can see why some of the other long-time session members are less tolerant. Either way, I'm as tired as they are of hinting and then saying as bluntly as possible--"give us a break and post something you play at Irish sessions," and--unfortunately, seeing no sign of being heard. As I've said elsewhere on this site, several of us sent personal emails, tried to be polite, avoided too discouraging a tone, made slightly stronger suggestions, and then got blunt when the message was ignored. You couldn't see it, but when the "Irish Waterman" was posted, people were throwing up their hands, laughing and crying at the same time, in many corners of the Irish trad world.
So I've started to be more blunt myself about Jeremy's stated purpose for starting and maintaining this site. His reasons are the reasons I first signed on and later became a contributor. I thought it was a site for like-minded people. Room for differences of opinion--you betcha. But the bulls eye is still Irish trad music. You can disagree as much as you want here, as long as we're disagreeing about the same topic.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
In that case I completely agree with all of the above. Yay!
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
*chuckle...snort!*
Good on you, Mark. I think we've worn all the others out. I'm to bed myself. Can't stay awake long enough for this page to download itself again, heh. Next time, you add the smiley faces and I'll remember the salt, and we'll both keep an eye out for Bridie on the war path. You watch my back and I'll watch yours....
G'night.
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
I use loads of smileys but not when I'm trying to deadpan ironic humour. I guess that doesn't work on the net. I'm off to a session in a few minutes. I know it's not one that Bridie usually goes to so I'm safe for the mo! I think I've got enough mileage out of this one - now I'll just have to think up another discussion topic to argue about for next week.
Only kidding
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
As the globe spins, it's time for night shift's turn, heh.
Well I guess I just wanted to chime in about the shelf-life of chat rooms & internet discussion boards in general, & how regs leaving determines their fate. (Zina, love to hear your take on this based on your work in computer mediation-- fascinating!)
Anyway, I'm sure many of you have been on similar forums to this (as I have) which have faded or self-destructed due to regs leaving, for whatever reason. I believe thesession.org to be safeguarded against this for the primary reason of the stated intent of Jeremy to its being an archive of tunes (um, Irish dance tunes?), so that, I feel, essentially protects & insures its legacy & future, as opposed to other sites which are often based on personalities or other more transitory common interests. When someone leaves quietly, or goes to lurking status unobtrusively, sort of like going to the bar for a pint, well that's just normal. But if someone noisily packs up their instrument in the middle of a tune & walks out into the wintry night, yes, we should ask ourselves why.
I didn't read what Brad wrote, & missed out on a lot of tunes commentary as that where much of the action seems to have shifted of late, so I don't know what he was thinking when he left. Could've been 'this place takes up too much time right now,' or more likely, 'this place doesn't meet my needs anymore.' I guess what I'm saying is that we need to ask ourselves what we come to thesession for, & what we can do in return to support it, & Jeremy. It's like I said in another post, I don't think you can have it both ways. As the site changes & evolves, we're bound to lose either novices or the greats. It's just the nature of change I guess, esp. on the internet.
Did I mention I hope Brad comes back? & can we play now?
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Will, it's just that I've worked in science and engineering all my live (well, until I took early retirement) and it often comes naturally to me to think of a tech approach. Old habits die hard.
I agree with you that in most cases if you can't quite make out what's going on, then look, listen and ask; it works. But there are some instances where things happen too fast for the ear to catch everything and if I really want to know the full detail for sure then I start thinking about a tech approach. Oh dear - perhaps I should be posting this comment on another thread!
trevor
# Posted on January 14th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Aaarrrggghhh!!!
David, many of us know all about Irish trad music's inclination to "listen to outside influences" and incorporate non-trad or foreign tunes (notice the "or"--I'm using "foreign" as shorthand for tunes from other trad forms, and non-trad as shorthand for things like playing the theme song to Gilligan's Island at a session). So it's not "despite what some people on this site may think."
No, I think what some of us are trying to say is listening to outside influences is fine. Playing "outside" tunes is terrific. But why bring so much of that to *this* site? Why is it so hard for some people to let this site be about Irish trad dance tunes (which is what Jeremy set it up for and some us come here for)?
The metaphor of a "critical sponge" is spot on--precisely what I'd personally would like this site to be. I just think that lately, we've been mostly sponge-like and not critical (in a good sense) enough. The tune archives by themselves cannot weed out the lame tunes from the "best of whatever comes its way." Tunes get posted and they stay here, unless Jeremy donates more of his time to weed out the inappropriate. Wouldn't it be "better" if each of us were that "critical sponge" and used a sense of discretion--informed by our experience of playing Irish trad music--to decide which tunes met that standard of "the best" and should be posted here?
I've said it over and over...personally, I don't mind the occasional tune from outside the Irish tradition. But I want it to be a gem, a tune that most Irish session players would oggle longingly and think, "Now there's a tune we should be playing at our session." What we've been seeing of late are tunes that make me and a few other long-time members think, "Now there's a really bizarre and hilarious twist on Irish Washerwoman," or "Well it's cute to post Eighth of January on the 8th of January, but does that mean I can post Ruby Tuesday next Tuesday?"
So...for me, it's NOT antagonism toward other traditions. I feel like shouting this because I'm tired of defending myself against this charge (but I'll be nice). I *play* music from other traditions every week. I listen to music from many other cultures. I also play Scottish, Cape Breton, Shetland, French Canadian, even an English tune or two at my local session. BUT I'm selective and not overbearing, and when other people set aside time and space to concentrate on Irish dance tunes (as at my local session or here on thesession.org), I *respect* that. I *don't* follow Toss the Feathers with Foggy Mountain Breakdown or Deep River Blues or Diggy Diggy Lo. Not that those aren't great music and fun to play...but they *don't* fit in at that time and place. And the reason they don't fit in is NOT because they're somehow "inferior" tunes or non-trad or whatever. It's because most of the people in the room on this site right then are there to play Irish dance tunes, they ones they've worked so hard and lovingly to learn. And I respect that.
# Posted on January 15th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
You know, I have some really cool tunes I'd like to post, but I seldom play in sessions (there aren't any around here), so I'm too scared to post them now. It's an unfortunate byproduct of this otherwise healthy discussion.
It's too bad -- sigh! -- because they are achingly beautiful.
(This, by the way, is entirely tongue in cheek).
# Posted on January 15th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Heh, Cuch, they aren't Wisconsin cheese-head ballads by any chance, are they?
"Oh the dells, the dells, the bonnie bonnie dells...."
But seriously, if anyone has a tune they'd like to post but feel anxious about it, email it to me (or another session member who's online persona doesn't terrify you) and I'll look at it. I've done this for a handful of people, and every time I've encouraged them to post the tune, sometimes with a few suggested changes, sometimes not. Bear in mind, there are plenty of people here more knowledgeable than me, and nearly all generous with their time and eager to be genuinely helpful. That's why we participate here.
# Posted on January 15th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
Will, Your points are well understood. I think that most of us who have kept up with this post can see where some comments have missed the mark in their analysis of your statements.
I stumbled upon this site when I was searching for some ABC's for some tune. Who can remember the specifics? I remember book marking the home page and reading the little bit that Jeremy posted. It was concise and told all I needed. This site is about traditional Irish music. I started following discussions and quickly found that this place was an excellent resouce for how to information. Well I got hooked on what the stated purpose of the session was and the magificent follow up that older members put into the site.
Although I respect the contrary opinions, I am here for what the home page says and the veterans built. You might be feeling that your words are bouncing off the walls and not hitting receptive ears. You might also feel that you have not swayed anyone. I know that you worked to try and make your points as palatable for everyone at the session. I appreciate your Herculean effort on this. For that matter I appreciate all the folk who were able to discuss this matter with a civil tongue.
I think we are reawakened and refocused. Sometimes it takes an Earthquake to shake things up. It's done.
Brad - come on back - I learned a lot of tunes off your posts in the past 8 months. Your effort has been my benefit. I respect your opinions as well - I don't you ever heard me say a word of support for you before. Thought I'd post it and hope it would make a difference.
# Posted on January 15th 2003 by Mark Cordova
Re: Tunes, tunes, and the slow death of thesession.org
The ironic thing about most of this is that I think just about everyone agrees, largely. It's just that everyone is approaching the subject from a slightly different angle. What's unfortunate is losing someone like Brad, who is a very good guy and a knowledgeable player and resource, because of all this. Even more unfortunately, in cases where there appears to be irreconcilable differences, the group has to start privately wondering (hopefully in the background) which person is more valuable to them, which is a dismaying thing to find yourself thinking.
We've all probably had the experience of meeting a group of people during the course of a hobby or work or whatever, and discovering that, for some of them, the focus of the group doesn't fit where we want to be. Most experienced players have certainly visited sessions that they quickly decided they didn't want to visit again, or went for a while only to discover things that don't fit with how you see this music and abandoning ship then. That's what happened with Brad and what came perilously c