I was just wondering what session.org'ers political standpoints were?
I'm a rather left wing marxist and as such always find it difficult to fit in around conservative pricks at a session (the few unfortunate times I've managed to come across them that is). I also find that the choice of tunes varies greatly as does the speed, atmosphere etc of a session according to political standpoints and 'class'. I've never seen religious upset between players before but once or twice amongst the punters. I suppose this kind of ties in to a thread someone started about sessions being populated by the middle class....
so anyway, thoughts........... theories............. anyone?
I have a hard time playing at sessions with postmodernist philosophers who believe that "tunes" are arbitrary social constructions and therefore deconstruct them and play them in ways that don't fit in the category of "jig" or "reel" or "hornpipe." They get rather offended when you play a "reel" and say that it is not a real (haha) thing, but rather something we have arbitrarily designated as a type of "tune" and labeled as such.
I was just wondering what session.org'ers political standpoints were?"
Why, so that we can clash politically at thesession.org? ;)
Honestly, I know the political standpoints of some of my fellow sessioneers, but through other means - not through the session itself. At the session, we play tunes and sing sea shanties and drinking songs, which is about as apolitical as these things come. No discussion on labour issues or tax cuts has ever arisen from same. Once or twice a visitor led a nationalist song, and the session leader (and many others) looked visibly uncomfortable.
I'm not talking about my political standpoints here; music is my refuge from such banter, and I'd like to keep things that way.
But I'm genuinely curious as to how the choice of tunes and speed vary with political standpoints and class. Do the radicals favour E dorian jigs, while the reactionaries are more inclined to lead D major reels?
I like the environment but kill spiders.......I tune my instrument with a tuner..........I get offended when people want to pay gigs with money instead of beer.......I love scottish tunes but only when they are played in an irish style....I'm a bit messed up I think
David - reminds me of story my flute playing friend who is from the bush up northern NSW told me about. She and her boyfriend have a property in Dargo which is a little tiny place in Victoria - they are really into hunting and shooting down there. Anyhow - at one point one of the locals came up to their property looking for his dog that had run away...his mobile phone rang and when he answered it he said
"Oh, I'm just with the wine drinking Yuppies from the city"
I laughed so hard when I heard that story especially cause my friend grew up in the bush.
tee he, tickled me that, bb
But really, All Daniel is asking for is a bit of a scrap, fifty or so posts of vitriol and a swift deletion from the lord our god jeremy
I think there is (well, it's obvious enough, really) more of a political dimension to songs than tunes. When I lived in Germany some friends (healthily leaning to the left-liberal side in most cases, of course) were intially shocked that I had an interest in (forgive the term folk music. In Germany, as in many other places, traditional rural music had been used to foster the myth of the nation as a racial identity; indeed, a bit of that was done in England. Germans, on the whole, take a very serious and cautious interest in the whole question of national self-perception, for obvious reasons. I had to explain that folk music does not *have* to be taken that way - as the music of "the people" it can give expression to issues of exploitation, servitude, land appropriation by the powerful few, slavery or near-slavery and so on. In fact the folk club where I first came into contact with traditional tunes and songs had metamorphosed out of the university humanist society!
In Ireland, where I lived in what still calls itself the "rebel county", almost the only discomfort came from what the local people would call the "plastic Paddys"; these were people of Irish blood who would leave their homes and nice houses in the home counties of England for a few weeks in the summer to visit "the old country", sit in the pub with the locals and sing pro-IRA songs. Now of course there were indeed some IRA supporters amongst the local people, but there was a sense that people who actually live in Ireland were on the whole ready to move beyond the days of dying and killing. To remember those days is one thing - to long for them with nostalgia is another.
Well Daniel, regarding politics, I suspect mine are close to quite a lot of those playing music. However, where I live, you've got to get on with everyone as best you can - so politics are generally avoided for the most part - and people get on, for the most part. That is until....
I was involved with organising a festival for a while and we had this big waterfront dispute.....and the festival was sponsored by a left wing union....and we festival organisers agonised about politics spilling over and creating violence. And the irony was, there WAS violence at the festival that year, but it wasn't between people arguing politics. It was between two fiddlers who couldn't agree on the key the tune they were playing should be in!
We have no problem talking politics at sessions around here, but most of us are in general agreement about the state of things. So unless you’re presenting any new information -- you're just preaching to the choir.
and I've noticed there is a distinct politics diffusion strategy that goes something like
"Did anyone see what X [party or leader] said about [topic]?"
"Yes. It's sh*te" (2nd person)
"And the opposition is sh*te too" (3rd person)
"ALL politicians are sh*te - let's play a tune" (all round agreement)
Politics isn't a major thing in our sessions, though something or other will come up every now and again. We're just a bunch of hairy-arses out for a bit of fun and tunes and free Doom Bar on the whole. There's very little dissent from a general leftie view of the world. I think that if anyone held out on something slightly on the heavy side for more than a couple of minutes he'd be shot down and drowned out by the starting of a tune. Good thing too! There are always the poitical forums on music websites, though not as many as there used to be...
Stuff it, why bother trying to mix politics and music? So perhaps it's a bit ironic to be a member of the aristocracy and sing "butter and cheese and all", but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it (ideally, if it could be Lord Lucan)..... The only annoying thing is when people assume that just because you're a folkie you've no concept of capitalism, strict liability, differential equations etc etc or any political viewpoints you have must be highly left wing and you're a pagan. Rather irritating for a middle class catholic atheist
So are we allowed to say things like "Conservative-driven American foreign policy of recent years is the biggest threat to world peace on the planet"? Or "America, with the connivance of one or two lackeys (like Blair and Howard) is abandoning notions of justice, fair treatment of prisoners and basic human rights"? Not that I have anything against Americans - I know a few, and all are heartily ashamed of their government.
Or would comments like that be beyond the pale? Just asking...
The worst bit is when the leader of all this political sh*t is the "leader" of the session.... what then? It happens at one of the sessions I go to. They can get carried away, and moan longer then they play tunes. argh. I don't mind talking about it. Why don't they leave the politics till the end, the "chat time," and not disrupt "tune time"?
When (what seems to be) the majority of posters are unwilling to even identify the area they live in or the instrument they play, I think it may be premature to enquire about political leanings. Perhaps this is best done in person, to avoid pigeonholing and typecasting. Bad enough to be labelled a Performer,
or Dot-reader.
Firstly, no i'm not after a scrap! I wasn't referring to talking about politics at a session so much as the asthetics political views create. For instance, I have played at sessions in scotland populated by laywers/bankers etc and found them to be much more of a 'purist' session and less welcoming to outside players.
I'm not saying that one group of people prefers a different key to the other, but that their style, tempo and variation within a session changes accordingly.
I generally find the best sessions to be in working class areas where yes, the red flag may be played but alongside it you might get the princess royal. I tend to find that the more middle class/conservative sessions are more about a nice little bit of music in the corner rather than the whole pub joinging in with a dance and a song (not that you shouldn't be able to have a quiet drink with some live music on, but you get what I mean don't you?)
You could say that lawyers/bankers and professional people play music "nicely" and they are not as lively or exciting as inner city-bred working-class scallies, but that might indicate that they spent more time on education and their career than the "mispent" youth that spent their time learning music. Also career professionals tend to have more expensive instruments. If someone has a good job, speaks and dresses nicely, does that make them middle class? Maybe they just have better manners due to their better education.
When you get a lawyer like Brian Conway though, he has a great instrument, technique and an extremely intellectual approach to his music - deliberate Sligo style, lovely tone and command of the instrument. I don't know what his politics are and I don't care.
Having been a miner and been to sea, I haven't heard any miners or sailors singing about their job, although farmers and hunting sorts certainly do sing songs about their jobs.
Although we did sneak instruments into coal mines and steel works, and have played in sessions in both, to while away the hours on nights.
Because of this, I am always a little cynical when people start songs about Miners, strikes, picketing, support the Working Man, kill the Capitalists etc. although I quite enjoy a shanty.
What really does make me want to go to the bar , toilet or nearest gibbet, is any feminist or "wimmins" songs.
I expect to be requested to play "The Soldiers Tale" at certain Irish clubs and am ready with the dots, but I draw the line at playing "The Internationale", as I have been requested at some clubs off the political barometer.
Around here, (North Carolina) the majority of ITM folks are lefty/progressive, it seems. Lots of hybrid cars. Since this is North Carolina, I suspect that we are the *only* leftists in the state.
I get the *impression* that this trend holds elsewhere too. Certainly in PB's neck of the woods.
What I want to know is. . . why?
Also - why are all the step dancers rightwing conservatives?
In most NE US pubs, the crowds tend to lean to the left. The immigrant Irish population around here has always been a backbone of the Democratic party.
That being said, I like to leave politics behind and focus on the music when at a session.
I must say it always amuses me to hear twee folk-club types singing about debauchery in a voice that sounds like it's never gone debauching in all its life.
It's a bit naive and even patronising to assume that a liking for certain music predicts your political views. I recall a good box player confiding to me in shocked terms that "X" (the publican), was a Tory - ".... but he's always been so into the music!" - as if the two were incompatible
Yon Bad Learner,
I know what you mean about those inappropriate voices singing the drinking songs. Our group just added a guitarist who sings bass, which means that I don't have to struggle to apply my tenor voice to tunes like The Wild Rover during the upcoming St Patrick's Day gigs. Hooray!
i'm sorry I've come across that way. Don't think for even a second that I am branding all bankers/lawyers etc with a poitical standpoint that is purely based on ignorance or stereotype. parts of this thread seem to have turned very nasty and serious. I'm sorry if the manner in which I posed the original message seemed to be unfounded or provoking. Twas only supposed to be taken light hearted as some of you thankfully have.
Of the multitude of people I've played music with over the decades, I've known the politics of maybe two percent. I tend to spend my political energy in frequent missives to elected officials or in a specific political forum. To me, a musical friendship is too valuable to squander over an argument that's unlikely to change anybody's mind.
It turned nasty when Geoff Wright began the old sexist bit and mentioned "Feminist" songs. There goes a "Woman's Heart" for a start, a powerful love song, a real love song. So Geoff becomes the first tory player I have known.
Many musicians and folkies would be lefties, and many would have grown into middle class professional lefties, no matter their origins, and their belief that they are still working class. This is not to deride them, they will be more committed than the "scallies" someone mentioned, the unfortunate "underclass" who are not into politics, apart from bringing back hanging, loving the monarchy, and fighting wars. I used to hate that word "underclass" but unfortunately it is now a reality.
So in England and Ireland, the majority would be fairly educated, and the majority of the educated are lefties, which is why we are trying to close as many schools as possible.
I was hoping this was going to be really nasty, with Bush lovers, PLO supporters, and all that. What a disappointment.
So just remember to keep boycotting coca-cola, as they murder trade unionists and workers in Columbia, and steal water rights in India. Viva La quince brigada.
I don't know either.........
but maybe it's because (my opinion) you have to have a lot of heart ............
to love and play this music.
Do Republicans have heart?
I suppose if some of your session participants were likely to be conservatives or right-wingers then politics would be a subject you would want to avoid. I have yet to find any session where there was likelihood that conservatives are present. The closest I've ever encountered were people more inclined to the center, but they would still find our political discussions interesting locally. I only know of one person who frequents our sessions who actually proclaimed they're party affiliation as the same as GW and that they voted for him, and everyone at the session was shocked into silence. But this incident was back before 9-11 etc., and we haven't heard any proclamations since.
On my last trip to Ireland in November 2004 it was just after the second election was stolen and people would approach me asking how so many Yanks can even vote for such an eejit like Bush. Obviously they assumed I was left-leaning or they wouldn’t have approached me at all. This left me with the impression that most Yanks who visit sessions in Ireland are not conservatives, and Irish people aren’t likely to support Bush either. Not one person approached me to say something like, “All right Bush!” or “Congratulations on your election results.”
The closest I've come to hearing conservative polital views at a session is having a session player express consternation and strong "libertarian" views regarding the right to smoke inside the pub; I kept my mouth shut (and held my breath).
Jack said "I suppose if some of your session participants were likely to be conservative or right-wingers, then politics would be a subject you would want to avoid."
I would want to avoid discussing politics if there were likely to be left-wingers, anarchists, communists or musicians of any other persuasion there as well.
Social customs may be different in America, but on this side of the pond I would consider it very bad form not only to ask somebody what their politics were, but also to make remarks that would leave the other members of the session in no doubt as to what your own politics were.
I´m not the slightest bit interested in the political views of my fellow musicians and I don´t expect them to be interested in mine.
There are plenty of subjects to talk about between the tunes that are far more interesting than politics.
Nothing is more interesting than politics because politics is everything. Next time you go to the bar and buy a pint, consider this. In 1936 a loaf of bread was 3d and a pint was 3d. So why the big gap now? Politics is the answer, finance, and politics and finance go hand in hand. Even the opening hours and entertainment allowed are political decisions. The whole secret of being successful in politics is getting large numbers of voters not to be interested, just like yourself, Murfbox.
Even music can be political. Next time you watch "Rambo" listen to the stirring uplifting music as he zaps all those Commies, and dedicates it to the wonderful people of Afghanistan. Just as well he didn't make the film now. We use music such as "Feed the World" to stir emotions, and don't think Live Aid was not political. Music is used as propaganda to stir emotions, political propaganda quite often.
So like it or lump it, your whole life is governed by politics and political decisions. Perhaps people should find it interesting.
BB, I agree that politics is a fascinating subject of study and that the way we are manipulated and persuaded ties in with marketing techniques and psychology in general.
I have opinions about the way the country I live in, and my local community, is governed. I vote at elections and, if I feel strongly enough about something, am free to go on demonstrations and other public manifestations.
But it´s just that I don´t think that an exchange of political views at a session serves any useful purpose. I´m not talking about grumbling over the price of a pint - a natural thing to do - as that´s not the type of politics I´m talking about.
To have an interesting and informative discussion about politics in a pub would take up all the time that could be more usefully spent in playing tunes.
I'm with murbox.....I actually am very interested in politics and love engaging with intelligent, articulate, and even differently positioned adults on all things political. And over dinner, over a drink or ten, and when there is plenty of time to engage properly, I LOVE political discussions.
But when a session gathers its for the purpose of playing music, and I'd be annoyed by trying to squish a good topic into the space between tunes and trivialising it, and could understand those who came just for the music being annoyed by a political debate or discussion hijacking session time.
I guess its about the tacitly agreed reasons for you getting together......don't know how many times I've invited a couple of friends over for dinner and asked them to bring instruments for an after dinner play....and we've never left the table and the instruments never came out their cases, because the conversation was so good. Underlying the interactions was consensus that we open another bottle of wine and keep arguing rather than stop and play.
Bodhran Bliss....I reckon that if you and I were at the same session and something political came up in conversation....I'd probably invite you and anyone who wanted to have a good gabfest about it back for food and more drinks at my place AFTER the session.....and feed both the musical and political parts of my soul!
Of course everything is politics, and I treat with contempt those who, for example, say things like, "I'm not interested in politics, I just get oh with my life."
However, the abstract nature of instrumental Irish diddley music does indeed render it completely a-political and that really is one of the reasons i love it so.
I totally agree CurvyFiddle, a time and a place for everything. Mind you with a name like CurvyFiddle inviting me back it would be a political discussion. I'm an old man.
Keep up the fiddle, Mr Llig says its easy.
Speaking of which, there is haunting and rousing diddley music on most films and many TV shows now. Would we really have rallied behind Mel Gibson/William Wallace if the unseen piper hadn't followed him about the heather playing inspiring music?
Somehow I doubt it. If the backing music had been Daniel O'Donnell we would have been volunteering to disembowel him long before the "baddies" did.
Ah bliss! unfortunately it's my guitar shaped fiddle (no extra twiddly bits) that is well proportioned and a thing of beauty. I tend to the overabundant.....so you'd probably only be interested in my mind or my music!
murfbox writes: "Social customs may be different in America, but on this side of the pond I would consider it very bad form not only to ask somebody what their politics were, but also to make remarks that would leave the other members of the session in no doubt as to what your own politics were."
Well... that wasn't my experience, but I did arrive in Ireland on election day and the fact that Bush was reelected left most of the Irish that approached me to talk about it completely dismayed. But on other trips it wasn't a topic to be avoided as far as I could tell. It wasn't the only subject mind you, and plenty of tunes were played, but it wasn't considered bad form to mention political topics. I did notice that the political topics raised were generally about global issues as apposed to local ones though.
Yeah PB - I know what that like - when I lived in Galway the 'Tampa Crisis' (refugees rescude by a big ship as their own ship went down, Australia wouldnt even let the ship dock to get food.....and lots of even worse things - I wont go into it as its very political) was happening here. Did me and Sirnose get such a hammering...even though we didnt even agree with it or anything.
I remember meeting a young Africaans man in a youth hostel in Dublin at the end of the apartheid era. Everywhere he went he copped criticism as though he was personally responsible, and rather than be defensive he just said: "I've only just turned 18 man, I haven't had a chance to vote yet myself. But I've travelled, had my eyes opened, and can see lots that's wrong in my country, including apartheid. It's tempting to stay here in Europe where human rights are much better and where I'd have a good life. But I'm going back, and I will vote and work for change. Anyone want to give me more advice?"
I am jaded with both parties, period, an think pretty much anyone who climbs the ranks high enough to be a candidate is likely corrupt, no matter how sincere they seem. People look at me, in the arts, working as an artist, jeweler and musician and think I must be super-lefty, but am not, not right wing either, just more likely a very compassionate libertarian leaning type (who doesn't like smoke in public places!!). I have some strange sounding ideas, but try to keep them out of the music. Not afraid to argue them at all either, and it's just opinion, and others have a different opinion, no reason to get angry and hateful while having a discussion. I think we've gone way off track with government getting too big.
really all I want is for everyone to have a good life.... an impossible dream, but apparently politics and politicians, left or right, don't seem to know how to do that either, though they all talk like they do while seeking election.
As well as being utterly irrelevant to the playing of Traditional Music asking this has been a foolish exercise to contemplate because:
As has been said by nearly every contributor to this thread, they'd rather keep their politics and their music apart.
By the very act of asking this you have taken a verbal hiding.
By not having had the werewithall to have been able to predict that this would happen displays acute immaturity, insensitivity or arrogance - possibly all three.
>I'm a rather left wing marxist
- there is a degree of redundancy in that phrase. What other kind of Marxist can you get? I've never heard of a right wing Marxist. But I guess you know best since you're the one who has trumpeted your credentials right here.
BTW, which particular branch of Marxist ideology do you subscribe to? Althusserian Marxism, that expounded by Gramsci, Maoism, Marxist-Leninism or whatever?
>conservative pricks
- There are many "pricks" who claim to have left wing credentials, and I have some friends whom I totally disagree with politically, ie they are conservative, but I would never describe them as pricks.
>I also find that the choice of tunes varies greatly as does the speed, atmosphere etc of a session according to political standpoints and 'class'.
That is simply insane. There is no way class/political standpoint can be related to speed of playing or choice of tune. I take it, since you are such a Marxist revolutionary and you like to think that you play fast, that according to your delusional logic system, therefore:
Frankie Gavin = Joe Stalin,
and thus
Martin Hayes = Adolf Hitler.
Danny, immature, insensitive and arrogant I most certainly am! (but I didn't think one could tell that just from this thread). Secondly, I started to type the sentence 'I'm rather left wing' but thought I might as well stick what I firmly believe in on the end. I'm Dyslexic so please forgive my minor grammatical errors. Hegel, Marx, Gramsci, John MacLean the list could go on but I won't. I didn't start this thread to discuss which marxist philosophers I attribute my views to!
Pricks, Yes there are left and right wing pricks but more generally they are likely to be a right wing conservative prick! Now I really don't want to get bogged down in a very boring debate about your definitions of people.
I have never claimed to play fast (or not as you now say), I was only made aware of the pace at which I play by you yourself!
And finally, what I was really getting at in this thread:
THERE IS MOST CERTAINLY A CONNECTION BETWEEN CLASS/POLITICS ON THE ATMOSPHERE AND AESTHETICS OF A SESSION. - in my humble opinion. that's the reason I opened this up to debate. The most obvious example I can give is from playing at Royal Ascot (York) the year before last. I played in 4 different bars over 2 of the 4 days and the difference in style, choice of tunes, tempo, atmosphere and acceptance of the music by the punters differed vastly. As for songs, there was a huge group of people form the cheap, standing enclosure singing along to the fields of athenry and getting rather anti-loyalist as the queen drove past. These people were from all over the place but all (as far as I could see and hear) working class. Do you really think that anyone would have started that up when we played by the royal enclosure? NOT BLOODY LIKELY MATE!
"Oh, if only those two had spent more time playing music!
I mean Joe and Adolf"
Have to agree totally with Ptarmy here. In my opinion all political leaders should have to demonstrate a reasonable level of proficiency on a trad instrument before being appointed to a position of power. Imagine those after dinner sessions in the White House, Kremlin or even Stormont. No right minded sessioneer would want to harm a fellow musician and I'm sure that would also apply for bodhrán players of dubious ability!
as you can clearly see Danny it does NOT say 'how I love another fast player like myself' does it now? I meant someone else other than steve or ian both of whom are competeant musicians capable of playing in various sppeds and styles.
Busted
A little decorum please. ITM players in N.Ireland were once declared "Pan-nationalist" musicians by loyalist paramilitaries, and said to be "legitimate targets" for assassination. I kid you not. And you two think you have worries.
A crowd arrived on the second week of this short lived campaign to sort us out, but it turned out our banjo player knew them. What worries me is that the same bloke, the assassin not the banjo player, featured to a large degree in the "collusion" story here last week. Maybe I should take these things seriously.
Now, is that [political enough foir you, and directly linked to the music.
Danny, I didn't clearly write that bacause I'M DYSLEXIC!!! and as such have a great deal of trouble formulating my ideas in written text. sorry for the confusion!
OK, bliss, were these Pan Nationalists playing pan pipes?
Yeah, I've also heard some horror stories about sessions during the troubles, one of a fiddle player, a proddie, getting his fingers broken by his "own" boys on his way back from a session. And I've witnessed and been involved in some scraps and scrapes here in London at and after sessions. So yeah, maybe our bickering should rightly pale into insignificance. That said, I still think it is a dodgy discussion topic and fortunately most respondents had the good grace to merely mildly denounce its surfacing. As it happens, it IS possible to talk politics to your session mates - who would happen to think along the same lines as ones' self - but they most certainly DO have to be your mates that you'd have developed a certain repartie with over the years. If someone turned up at our session and within a few sentences of introduction said "Oh, and by the way, I'm a left wing Marxist", I suspect the table would quickly become deserted by all but one as sessioneers headed through to the other bar. BTW, those who know me here will testify that I'm not exactly a Maggie Thatcher fan.
Given Tony Blair's performance I am nearly hankering back to the good old days and Maggie. Nearly.
The only casualties of the Pan Nationalist thing were "proddies" as you call them, in a pub in Newtownards where shots were actually fired. North Down coast has a great tradition and great players, mostly "proddies" as you say.
And when someone comes into the session and says "I'm a marxist" we always assume that we are in for a Night at the Opera.
Political clashes at a session
Political clashes at a session
I was just wondering what session.org'ers political standpoints were?
I'm a rather left wing marxist and as such always find it difficult to fit in around conservative pricks at a session (the few unfortunate times I've managed to come across them that is). I also find that the choice of tunes varies greatly as does the speed, atmosphere etc of a session according to political standpoints and 'class'. I've never seen religious upset between players before but once or twice amongst the punters. I suppose this kind of ties in to a thread someone started about sessions being populated by the middle class....
so anyway, thoughts........... theories............. anyone?
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Political clashes at a session
Of course.
I have a hard time playing at sessions with postmodernist philosophers who believe that "tunes" are arbitrary social constructions and therefore deconstruct them and play them in ways that don't fit in the category of "jig" or "reel" or "hornpipe." They get rather offended when you play a "reel" and say that it is not a real (haha) thing, but rather something we have arbitrarily designated as a type of "tune" and labeled as such.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Political clashes at a session
"Political clashes at a session
I was just wondering what session.org'ers political standpoints were?"
Why, so that we can clash politically at thesession.org? ;)
Honestly, I know the political standpoints of some of my fellow sessioneers, but through other means - not through the session itself. At the session, we play tunes and sing sea shanties and drinking songs, which is about as apolitical as these things come. No discussion on labour issues or tax cuts has ever arisen from same. Once or twice a visitor led a nationalist song, and the session leader (and many others) looked visibly uncomfortable.
I'm not talking about my political standpoints here; music is my refuge from such banter, and I'd like to keep things that way.
But I'm genuinely curious as to how the choice of tunes and speed vary with political standpoints and class. Do the radicals favour E dorian jigs, while the reactionaries are more inclined to lead D major reels?
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Political clashes at a session
I like the environment but kill spiders.......I tune my instrument with a tuner..........I get offended when people want to pay gigs with money instead of beer.......I love scottish tunes but only when they are played in an irish style....I'm a bit messed up I think
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by bb
Re: Political clashes at a session
David - reminds me of story my flute playing friend who is from the bush up northern NSW told me about. She and her boyfriend have a property in Dargo which is a little tiny place in Victoria - they are really into hunting and shooting down there. Anyhow - at one point one of the locals came up to their property looking for his dog that had run away...his mobile phone rang and when he answered it he said
"Oh, I'm just with the wine drinking Yuppies from the city"
I laughed so hard when I heard that story especially cause my friend grew up in the bush.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by bb
Re: Political clashes at a session
tee he, tickled me that, bb
But really, All Daniel is asking for is a bit of a scrap, fifty or so posts of vitriol and a swift deletion from the lord our god jeremy
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Political clashes at a session
I think there is (well, it's obvious enough, really) more of a political dimension to songs than tunes. When I lived in Germany some friends (healthily leaning to the left-liberal side in most cases, of course) were intially shocked that I had an interest in (forgive the term
folk music. In Germany, as in many other places, traditional rural music had been used to foster the myth of the nation as a racial identity; indeed, a bit of that was done in England. Germans, on the whole, take a very serious and cautious interest in the whole question of national self-perception, for obvious reasons. I had to explain that folk music does not *have* to be taken that way - as the music of "the people" it can give expression to issues of exploitation, servitude, land appropriation by the powerful few, slavery or near-slavery and so on. In fact the folk club where I first came into contact with traditional tunes and songs had metamorphosed out of the university humanist society!
In Ireland, where I lived in what still calls itself the "rebel county", almost the only discomfort came from what the local people would call the "plastic Paddys"; these were people of Irish blood who would leave their homes and nice houses in the home counties of England for a few weeks in the summer to visit "the old country", sit in the pub with the locals and sing pro-IRA songs. Now of course there were indeed some IRA supporters amongst the local people, but there was a sense that people who actually live in Ireland were on the whole ready to move beyond the days of dying and killing. To remember those days is one thing - to long for them with nostalgia is another.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Political clashes at a session
And another thing, what are everybody's religious convictions (or lack thereof)?
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Political clashes at a session
Well Daniel, regarding politics, I suspect mine are close to quite a lot of those playing music. However, where I live, you've got to get on with everyone as best you can - so politics are generally avoided for the most part - and people get on, for the most part. That is until....
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Ron P
Re: Political clashes at a session
I'm very active politically but I'm grown-up enough to be able to be friends with nice people who disagree with me (if only to try and convert them!)
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by SineadE
Re: Political clashes at a session
Ah crazy_fingerz - I'm ok with saying what my religious beliefs are - I'm a devout agnostic
.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Ron P
Re: Political clashes at a session
I was involved with organising a festival for a while and we had this big waterfront dispute.....and the festival was sponsored by a left wing union....and we festival organisers agonised about politics spilling over and creating violence. And the irony was, there WAS violence at the festival that year, but it wasn't between people arguing politics. It was between two fiddlers who couldn't agree on the key the tune they were playing should be in!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Political clashes at a session
ah, maybe it's because I'm not a fiddler then, rather than because I'm a grown-up!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by SineadE
Re: Political clashes at a session
We have no problem talking politics at sessions around here, but most of us are in general agreement about the state of things. So unless you’re presenting any new information -- you're just preaching to the choir.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Political clashes at a session
and I've noticed there is a distinct politics diffusion strategy that goes something like
"Did anyone see what X [party or leader] said about [topic]?"
"Yes. It's sh*te" (2nd person)
"And the opposition is sh*te too" (3rd person)
"ALL politicians are sh*te - let's play a tune" (all round agreement)
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Political clashes at a session
Politics isn't a major thing in our sessions, though something or other will come up every now and again. We're just a bunch of hairy-arses out for a bit of fun and tunes and free Doom Bar on the whole. There's very little dissent from a general leftie view of the world. I think that if anyone held out on something slightly on the heavy side for more than a couple of minutes he'd be shot down and drowned out by the starting of a tune. Good thing too! There are always the poitical forums on music websites, though not as many as there used to be...
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Political clashes at a session
The poLitical ones too.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Political clashes at a session
Stuff it, why bother trying to mix politics and music? So perhaps it's a bit ironic to be a member of the aristocracy and sing "butter and cheese and all", but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it (ideally, if it could be Lord Lucan).....
The only annoying thing is when people assume that just because you're a folkie you've no concept of capitalism, strict liability, differential equations etc etc or any political viewpoints you have must be highly left wing and you're a pagan. Rather irritating for a middle class catholic atheist 
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Political clashes at a session
So are we allowed to say things like "Conservative-driven American foreign policy of recent years is the biggest threat to world peace on the planet"? Or "America, with the connivance of one or two lackeys (like Blair and Howard) is abandoning notions of justice, fair treatment of prisoners and basic human rights"? Not that I have anything against Americans - I know a few, and all are heartily ashamed of their government.
Or would comments like that be beyond the pale? Just asking...
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Political clashes at a session
you can say it........but be prepared for someone to say 'what key is that in?'
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Political clashes at a session
I concur... but now the thread is doomed as soon as Jeremy wakes up and turns on his computer.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Political clashes at a session
Ooh....I've only been on two other 'disappearing' threads. How exciting!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Political clashes at a session
The thrill of hitting "post" and ending up at the main comments page as if nothing happened.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Political clashes at a session
The worst bit is when the leader of all this political sh*t is the "leader" of the session.... what then? It happens at one of the sessions I go to. They can get carried away, and moan longer then they play tunes. argh. I don't mind talking about it. Why don't they leave the politics till the end, the "chat time," and not disrupt "tune time"?
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Tessa
Re: Political clashes at a session
I'm gona play this fiddle if it kills me!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by jehanna
Re: Political clashes at a session
When (what seems to be) the majority of posters are unwilling to even identify the area they live in or the instrument they play, I think it may be premature to enquire about political leanings. Perhaps this is best done in person, to avoid pigeonholing and typecasting. Bad enough to be labelled a Performer,
or Dot-reader.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Political clashes at a session
I'm neither... I'm an independent.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Political clashes at a session
I'm a card-carrying member of the Monster Raving Loony Party.
I vote for policies such as "Free Pencils for All" and "Ban the Mongoose"
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Political clashes at a session
I'm gonna kill this fiddle if it plays me!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Political clashes at a session
Firstly, no i'm not after a scrap! I wasn't referring to talking about politics at a session so much as the asthetics political views create. For instance, I have played at sessions in scotland populated by laywers/bankers etc and found them to be much more of a 'purist' session and less welcoming to outside players.
I'm not saying that one group of people prefers a different key to the other, but that their style, tempo and variation within a session changes accordingly.
I generally find the best sessions to be in working class areas where yes, the red flag may be played but alongside it you might get the princess royal. I tend to find that the more middle class/conservative sessions are more about a nice little bit of music in the corner rather than the whole pub joinging in with a dance and a song (not that you shouldn't be able to have a quiet drink with some live music on, but you get what I mean don't you?)
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Political clashes at a session
oh I think I get what you mean alright daniel.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by BegF
Re: Political clashes at a session
You could say that lawyers/bankers and professional people play music "nicely" and they are not as lively or exciting as inner city-bred working-class scallies, but that might indicate that they spent more time on education and their career than the "mispent" youth that spent their time learning music. Also career professionals tend to have more expensive instruments. If someone has a good job, speaks and dresses nicely, does that make them middle class? Maybe they just have better manners due to their better education.
When you get a lawyer like Brian Conway though, he has a great instrument, technique and an extremely intellectual approach to his music - deliberate Sligo style, lovely tone and command of the instrument. I don't know what his politics are and I don't care.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Fiddlebabe
Re: Political clashes at a session
Having been a miner and been to sea, I haven't heard any miners or sailors singing about their job, although farmers and hunting sorts certainly do sing songs about their jobs.
Although we did sneak instruments into coal mines and steel works, and have played in sessions in both, to while away the hours on nights.
Because of this, I am always a little cynical when people start songs about Miners, strikes, picketing, support the Working Man, kill the Capitalists etc. although I quite enjoy a shanty.
What really does make me want to go to the bar , toilet or nearest gibbet, is any feminist or "wimmins" songs.
I expect to be requested to play "The Soldiers Tale" at certain Irish clubs and am ready with the dots, but I draw the line at playing "The Internationale", as I have been requested at some clubs off the political barometer.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Political clashes at a session
Around here, (North Carolina) the majority of ITM folks are lefty/progressive, it seems. Lots of hybrid cars. Since this is North Carolina, I suspect that we are the *only* leftists in the state.
I get the *impression* that this trend holds elsewhere too. Certainly in PB's neck of the woods.
What I want to know is. . . why?
Also - why are all the step dancers rightwing conservatives?
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Political clashes at a session
In most NE US pubs, the crowds tend to lean to the left. The immigrant Irish population around here has always been a backbone of the Democratic party.
That being said, I like to leave politics behind and focus on the music when at a session.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Political clashes at a session
"In most NE US pubs, the crowds tend to lean to the left."
Not necessary in Cornwall. Despite the fact that much of the terrain is hilly, we tend to build our pubs on level ground.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Political clashes at a session
To be fair, I don't know many lawyers or bankers who sing songs about their jobs, either.
Though I guess one could always play "The Four Courts."
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Political clashes at a session
I must say it always amuses me to hear twee folk-club types singing about debauchery in a voice that sounds like it's never gone debauching in all its life.
It's a bit naive and even patronising to assume that a liking for certain music predicts your political views. I recall a good box player confiding to me in shocked terms that "X" (the publican), was a Tory - ".... but he's always been so into the music!" - as if the two were incompatible
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Bren
Re: Political clashes at a session
Yon Bad Learner,
I know what you mean about those inappropriate voices singing the drinking songs. Our group just added a guitarist who sings bass, which means that I don't have to struggle to apply my tenor voice to tunes like The Wild Rover during the upcoming St Patrick's Day gigs. Hooray!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Political clashes at a session
judge the session goers as marxist, conservative, capitalist, left without having a notion about the lives of any of the people there !!!!
Rubbish.
People go to a session for tunes that is it.
Daniel Gott -self proclaimed marxist- you have written one of the most rediculous, right wing, bigoted things I have ever read.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by richrua
Re: Political clashes at a session
i'm sorry I've come across that way. Don't think for even a second that I am branding all bankers/lawyers etc with a poitical standpoint that is purely based on ignorance or stereotype. parts of this thread seem to have turned very nasty and serious. I'm sorry if the manner in which I posed the original message seemed to be unfounded or provoking. Twas only supposed to be taken light hearted as some of you thankfully have.
CHILL WINSTON!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Political clashes at a session
Of the multitude of people I've played music with over the decades, I've known the politics of maybe two percent. I tend to spend my political energy in frequent missives to elected officials or in a specific political forum. To me, a musical friendship is too valuable to squander over an argument that's unlikely to change anybody's mind.
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Political clashes at a session
It turned nasty when Geoff Wright began the old sexist bit and mentioned "Feminist" songs. There goes a "Woman's Heart" for a start, a powerful love song, a real love song. So Geoff becomes the first tory player I have known.
Many musicians and folkies would be lefties, and many would have grown into middle class professional lefties, no matter their origins, and their belief that they are still working class. This is not to deride them, they will be more committed than the "scallies" someone mentioned, the unfortunate "underclass" who are not into politics, apart from bringing back hanging, loving the monarchy, and fighting wars. I used to hate that word "underclass" but unfortunately it is now a reality.
So in England and Ireland, the majority would be fairly educated, and the majority of the educated are lefties, which is why we are trying to close as many schools as possible.
I was hoping this was going to be really nasty, with Bush lovers, PLO supporters, and all that. What a disappointment.
So just remember to keep boycotting coca-cola, as they murder trade unionists and workers in Columbia, and steal water rights in India. Viva La quince brigada.
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Political clashes at a session
too true!
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Political clashes at a session
geoff,i think the internationale is a good tune.
much better than the tannenbaum version of the red flag that did for the original white cockade tune that should be there.
i'm sure there's a rip-roaring arrangement of the internationale by verdi.
of course,this could just exist in my imagination but i can't be arsed to google it...
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by biggus dave
Re: Political clashes at a session
Wormdiet asks why?
I don't know either.........
but maybe it's because (my opinion) you have to have a lot of heart ............
to love and play this music.
Do Republicans have heart?
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by morning star
Re: Political clashes at a session
I suppose if some of your session participants were likely to be conservatives or right-wingers then politics would be a subject you would want to avoid. I have yet to find any session where there was likelihood that conservatives are present. The closest I've ever encountered were people more inclined to the center, but they would still find our political discussions interesting locally. I only know of one person who frequents our sessions who actually proclaimed they're party affiliation as the same as GW and that they voted for him, and everyone at the session was shocked into silence. But this incident was back before 9-11 etc., and we haven't heard any proclamations since.
On my last trip to Ireland in November 2004 it was just after the second election was stolen and people would approach me asking how so many Yanks can even vote for such an eejit like Bush. Obviously they assumed I was left-leaning or they wouldn’t have approached me at all. This left me with the impression that most Yanks who visit sessions in Ireland are not conservatives, and Irish people aren’t likely to support Bush either. Not one person approached me to say something like, “All right Bush!” or “Congratulations on your election results.”
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Political clashes at a session
The closest I've come to hearing conservative polital views at a session is having a session player express consternation and strong "libertarian" views regarding the right to smoke inside the pub; I kept my mouth shut (and held my breath).
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Political clashes at a session
Bertie Ahern seems to be Irish, and appears to support Bush.
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Political clashes at a session
Jack said "I suppose if some of your session participants were likely to be conservative or right-wingers, then politics would be a subject you would want to avoid."
I would want to avoid discussing politics if there were likely to be left-wingers, anarchists, communists or musicians of any other persuasion there as well.
Social customs may be different in America, but on this side of the pond I would consider it very bad form not only to ask somebody what their politics were, but also to make remarks that would leave the other members of the session in no doubt as to what your own politics were.
I´m not the slightest bit interested in the political views of my fellow musicians and I don´t expect them to be interested in mine.
There are plenty of subjects to talk about between the tunes that are far more interesting than politics.
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by murfbox
Re: Political clashes at a session
Nothing is more interesting than politics because politics is everything. Next time you go to the bar and buy a pint, consider this. In 1936 a loaf of bread was 3d and a pint was 3d. So why the big gap now? Politics is the answer, finance, and politics and finance go hand in hand. Even the opening hours and entertainment allowed are political decisions. The whole secret of being successful in politics is getting large numbers of voters not to be interested, just like yourself, Murfbox.
Even music can be political. Next time you watch "Rambo" listen to the stirring uplifting music as he zaps all those Commies, and dedicates it to the wonderful people of Afghanistan. Just as well he didn't make the film now. We use music such as "Feed the World" to stir emotions, and don't think Live Aid was not political. Music is used as propaganda to stir emotions, political propaganda quite often.
So like it or lump it, your whole life is governed by politics and political decisions. Perhaps people should find it interesting.
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Political clashes at a session
BB, I agree that politics is a fascinating subject of study and that the way we are manipulated and persuaded ties in with marketing techniques and psychology in general.
I have opinions about the way the country I live in, and my local community, is governed. I vote at elections and, if I feel strongly enough about something, am free to go on demonstrations and other public manifestations.
But it´s just that I don´t think that an exchange of political views at a session serves any useful purpose. I´m not talking about grumbling over the price of a pint - a natural thing to do - as that´s not the type of politics I´m talking about.
To have an interesting and informative discussion about politics in a pub would take up all the time that could be more usefully spent in playing tunes.
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Political clashes at a session
I'm with murbox.....I actually am very interested in politics and love engaging with intelligent, articulate, and even differently positioned adults on all things political. And over dinner, over a drink or ten, and when there is plenty of time to engage properly, I LOVE political discussions.
But when a session gathers its for the purpose of playing music, and I'd be annoyed by trying to squish a good topic into the space between tunes and trivialising it, and could understand those who came just for the music being annoyed by a political debate or discussion hijacking session time.
I guess its about the tacitly agreed reasons for you getting together......don't know how many times I've invited a couple of friends over for dinner and asked them to bring instruments for an after dinner play....and we've never left the table and the instruments never came out their cases, because the conversation was so good. Underlying the interactions was consensus that we open another bottle of wine and keep arguing rather than stop and play.
Bodhran Bliss....I reckon that if you and I were at the same session and something political came up in conversation....I'd probably invite you and anyone who wanted to have a good gabfest about it back for food and more drinks at my place AFTER the session.....and feed both the musical and political parts of my soul!
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Political clashes at a session
Of course everything is politics, and I treat with contempt those who, for example, say things like, "I'm not interested in politics, I just get oh with my life."
However, the abstract nature of instrumental Irish diddley music does indeed render it completely a-political and that really is one of the reasons i love it so.
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Political clashes at a session
I totally agree CurvyFiddle, a time and a place for everything. Mind you with a name like CurvyFiddle inviting me back it would be a political discussion. I'm an old man.
Keep up the fiddle, Mr Llig says its easy.
Speaking of which, there is haunting and rousing diddley music on most films and many TV shows now. Would we really have rallied behind Mel Gibson/William Wallace if the unseen piper hadn't followed him about the heather playing inspiring music?
Somehow I doubt it. If the backing music had been Daniel O'Donnell we would have been volunteering to disembowel him long before the "baddies" did.
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Political clashes at a session
Ah bliss! unfortunately it's my guitar shaped fiddle (no extra twiddly bits) that is well proportioned and a thing of beauty. I tend to the overabundant.....so you'd probably only be interested in my mind or my music!
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Political clashes at a session
Probably both
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Political clashes at a session
murfbox writes: "Social customs may be different in America, but on this side of the pond I would consider it very bad form not only to ask somebody what their politics were, but also to make remarks that would leave the other members of the session in no doubt as to what your own politics were."
Well... that wasn't my experience, but I did arrive in Ireland on election day and the fact that Bush was reelected left most of the Irish that approached me to talk about it completely dismayed. But on other trips it wasn't a topic to be avoided as far as I could tell. It wasn't the only subject mind you, and plenty of tunes were played, but it wasn't considered bad form to mention political topics. I did notice that the political topics raised were generally about global issues as apposed to local ones though.
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Political clashes at a session
Yeah PB - I know what that like - when I lived in Galway the 'Tampa Crisis' (refugees rescude by a big ship as their own ship went down, Australia wouldnt even let the ship dock to get food.....and lots of even worse things - I wont go into it as its very political) was happening here. Did me and Sirnose get such a hammering...even though we didnt even agree with it or anything.
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by bb
Re: Political clashes at a session
I remember meeting a young Africaans man in a youth hostel in Dublin at the end of the apartheid era. Everywhere he went he copped criticism as though he was personally responsible, and rather than be defensive he just said: "I've only just turned 18 man, I haven't had a chance to vote yet myself. But I've travelled, had my eyes opened, and can see lots that's wrong in my country, including apartheid. It's tempting to stay here in Europe where human rights are much better and where I'd have a good life. But I'm going back, and I will vote and work for change. Anyone want to give me more advice?"
And it shut most people up!
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Political clashes at a session
I am jaded with both parties, period, an think pretty much anyone who climbs the ranks high enough to be a candidate is likely corrupt, no matter how sincere they seem. People look at me, in the arts, working as an artist, jeweler and musician and think I must be super-lefty, but am not, not right wing either, just more likely a very compassionate libertarian leaning type (who doesn't like smoke in public places!!). I have some strange sounding ideas, but try to keep them out of the music. Not afraid to argue them at all either, and it's just opinion, and others have a different opinion, no reason to get angry and hateful while having a discussion. I think we've gone way off track with government getting too big.
really all I want is for everyone to have a good life.... an impossible dream, but apparently politics and politicians, left or right, don't seem to know how to do that either, though they all talk like they do while seeking election.
That's all I will say, on with the tunes.
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Political clashes at a session
As well as being utterly irrelevant to the playing of Traditional Music asking this has been a foolish exercise to contemplate because:
As has been said by nearly every contributor to this thread, they'd rather keep their politics and their music apart.
By the very act of asking this you have taken a verbal hiding.
By not having had the werewithall to have been able to predict that this would happen displays acute immaturity, insensitivity or arrogance - possibly all three.
>I'm a rather left wing marxist
- there is a degree of redundancy in that phrase. What other kind of Marxist can you get? I've never heard of a right wing Marxist. But I guess you know best since you're the one who has trumpeted your credentials right here.
BTW, which particular branch of Marxist ideology do you subscribe to? Althusserian Marxism, that expounded by Gramsci, Maoism, Marxist-Leninism or whatever?
>conservative pricks
- There are many "pricks" who claim to have left wing credentials, and I have some friends whom I totally disagree with politically, ie they are conservative, but I would never describe them as pricks.
>I also find that the choice of tunes varies greatly as does the speed, atmosphere etc of a session according to political standpoints and 'class'.
That is simply insane. There is no way class/political standpoint can be related to speed of playing or choice of tune. I take it, since you are such a Marxist revolutionary and you like to think that you play fast, that according to your delusional logic system, therefore:
Frankie Gavin = Joe Stalin,
and thus
Martin Hayes = Adolf Hitler.
# Posted on February 5th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Political clashes at a session
Oh, if only those two had spent more time playing music!
I mean Joe & Adolf, of course!
# Posted on February 5th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Political clashes at a session
Very profound, Ptarmy, very profound.
# Posted on February 5th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Political clashes at a session
ITM is political in itself, well certainly in Ireland.
# Posted on February 5th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Political clashes at a session
But surely only in the 'Six Counties' Bliss? ...... & even up here, I don't remember ever hearing a political discussion at a session.
# Posted on February 5th 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Political clashes at a session
I was taught that a Lady should never discuss money, religion or politics. I guess that just leaves sex then? Should be a good session
# Posted on February 5th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Political clashes at a session
Danny, immature, insensitive and arrogant I most certainly am! (but I didn't think one could tell that just from this thread). Secondly, I started to type the sentence 'I'm rather left wing' but thought I might as well stick what I firmly believe in on the end. I'm Dyslexic so please forgive my minor grammatical errors. Hegel, Marx, Gramsci, John MacLean the list could go on but I won't. I didn't start this thread to discuss which marxist philosophers I attribute my views to!
Pricks, Yes there are left and right wing pricks but more generally they are likely to be a right wing conservative prick! Now I really don't want to get bogged down in a very boring debate about your definitions of people.
I have never claimed to play fast (or not as you now say), I was only made aware of the pace at which I play by you yourself!
And finally, what I was really getting at in this thread:
THERE IS MOST CERTAINLY A CONNECTION BETWEEN CLASS/POLITICS ON THE ATMOSPHERE AND AESTHETICS OF A SESSION. - in my humble opinion. that's the reason I opened this up to debate. The most obvious example I can give is from playing at Royal Ascot (York) the year before last. I played in 4 different bars over 2 of the 4 days and the difference in style, choice of tunes, tempo, atmosphere and acceptance of the music by the punters differed vastly. As for songs, there was a huge group of people form the cheap, standing enclosure singing along to the fields of athenry and getting rather anti-loyalist as the queen drove past. These people were from all over the place but all (as far as I could see and hear) working class. Do you really think that anyone would have started that up when we played by the royal enclosure? NOT BLOODY LIKELY MATE!
# Posted on February 6th 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Political clashes at a session
"Oh, if only those two had spent more time playing music!
I mean Joe and Adolf"
Have to agree totally with Ptarmy here. In my opinion all political leaders should have to demonstrate a reasonable level of proficiency on a trad instrument before being appointed to a position of power. Imagine those after dinner sessions in the White House, Kremlin or even Stormont. No right minded sessioneer would want to harm a fellow musician and I'm sure that would also apply for bodhrán players of dubious ability!
# Posted on February 6th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Political clashes at a session
I could only be bothered picking you up on one point here, since it's just a minor diversion for me to tinker with your mind:
>I have never claimed to play fast
Oh really?
Just to remind you of a comment you made wrt Dylan's:
>There was a good wealth of musicians down last night, a piper called 'gnome' i think, young pete somebody on fiddle (how I love another fast player!)
http://www.thesession.org/sessions/display/593
# Posted on February 6th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Political clashes at a session
as you can clearly see Danny it does NOT say 'how I love another fast player like myself' does it now? I meant someone else other than steve or ian both of whom are competeant musicians capable of playing in various sppeds and styles.
Busted
# Posted on February 6th 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Political clashes at a session
Pah! Busted nothing. It is not clear that you didn't mean yourself. It was not clear that you meant Steve or anyone.
# Posted on February 6th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Political clashes at a session
If you meant the comment NOT to refer to yourself why didn't you just clearly write that?
It's that simple.
Busted.
# Posted on February 6th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Political clashes at a session
Comrades,
A little decorum please. ITM players in N.Ireland were once declared "Pan-nationalist" musicians by loyalist paramilitaries, and said to be "legitimate targets" for assassination. I kid you not. And you two think you have worries.
A crowd arrived on the second week of this short lived campaign to sort us out, but it turned out our banjo player knew them. What worries me is that the same bloke, the assassin not the banjo player, featured to a large degree in the "collusion" story here last week. Maybe I should take these things seriously.
Now, is that [political enough foir you, and directly linked to the music.
# Posted on February 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Political clashes at a session
Yeah, I'd say so bodhran bliss.
Danny, I didn't clearly write that bacause I'M DYSLEXIC!!! and as such have a great deal of trouble formulating my ideas in written text. sorry for the confusion!
.................... Busted
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Political clashes at a session
Hhhmmm.
OK, bliss, were these Pan Nationalists playing pan pipes?
Yeah, I've also heard some horror stories about sessions during the troubles, one of a fiddle player, a proddie, getting his fingers broken by his "own" boys on his way back from a session. And I've witnessed and been involved in some scraps and scrapes here in London at and after sessions. So yeah, maybe our bickering should rightly pale into insignificance. That said, I still think it is a dodgy discussion topic and fortunately most respondents had the good grace to merely mildly denounce its surfacing. As it happens, it IS possible to talk politics to your session mates - who would happen to think along the same lines as ones' self - but they most certainly DO have to be your mates that you'd have developed a certain repartie with over the years. If someone turned up at our session and within a few sentences of introduction said "Oh, and by the way, I'm a left wing Marxist", I suspect the table would quickly become deserted by all but one as sessioneers headed through to the other bar. BTW, those who know me here will testify that I'm not exactly a Maggie Thatcher fan.
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Political clashes at a session
Given Tony Blair's performance I am nearly hankering back to the good old days and Maggie. Nearly.
The only casualties of the Pan Nationalist thing were "proddies" as you call them, in a pub in Newtownards where shots were actually fired. North Down coast has a great tradition and great players, mostly "proddies" as you say.
And when someone comes into the session and says "I'm a marxist" we always assume that we are in for a Night at the Opera.
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Political clashes at a session
>Given Tony Blair's performance I am nearly hankering back to the good old days and Maggie. Nearly.
- You'll get over it BB.
Proddies - I'm one! - well, non-catholic anyway. Non-christian for that matter.
>And when someone comes into the session and says "I'm a marxist" we always assume that we are in for a Night at the Opera.
--Wouldn't you Hegel him?
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Political clashes at a session
Are you being speculative, Danny?
Or just obscure and difficult to understand?
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Political clashes at a session
Animal Craic-ers
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Political clashes at a session
Nah, just difficult. What else do you expect?
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Political clashes at a session
haha, 'Hegel him' - brilliant!
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Political clashes at a session
It wasn't that good. I am a lapsed buddist myself, like violence too much, and a right wing Trot.
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by bodhran bliss