I am playing the tenor banjo (ITM) for 5 years and have a few problems. I find it hard to keep up with the speed of reels in a session.I tend to panic and my pick hand turns to lead,has anyone got any idea of my problem.Does anyone know of a banjo teachers in the Boston area.
Sound like performance anxiety (assuming you are diligently practicing at session speed and do not have unrealistic expectations for your current skill level). Kind of a new area of medical treatment. Been in music for forty years and have had some problems the past few in certain situation with certain musicians.
There are a few articles on the web. Some porpose biofeedback and such to relax. For a non-drink/non-drug (beta blockers, prescribed of course) there are proponents of eating bananas before a playing.
I tried the bananas for a big gig last month. It seemed to work.
The more you get use to playing in front of people(not meant to be interpreted as a performance of coarse) the less it will happen, you have a mental bloke now that you need to lose, just relax and enjoy the seesion and you'll become comfortable soon enogh.
Just keep practicing, you'll get there in the end. Do you practice at a decent tempo? Speed can be very subtle, just a few extra beats per minute than you're used to can throw you off.
Sorry can't help with tutors, I'm in UK.
Any banjo players fancy playing along with Barney and the High Reel? Good luck!
My advice is, forget about ornamentation for a bit. In fact, forget about it completely until it comes back naturally in your playing. One of the down sides of the (relatively) modern way of teaching Irish music, where ornamentation is almost more important than flow or rhythm, is that it creates an "urgency" in the playing. If your'e nervous, that becomes a major problem.
Could be possible that the session you're in is a particularly fast one. How does it compare to other sessions/recordings? Maybe start your own set at a pace of your own and see how your pick hand fares then. If you still panic at your own pace, then its definitely just because you're not used to playing in front of many people and the only was to solve that is to keep turning up and getting used to the speed. Personally i think speed can ruin many tunes
I agree totally with Backer. Relax, get the rhythm right first and the "session speed" shouldn't be a problem. The ornamentation will follow.
Btw, I used to go early to sessions and have a few pints beforehand. It worked for me way back then but I gradually grew out of that habit as it was having an adverse effect as I got older
I concur with Backer. I've been playing banjo and mandola for about five years, and find that when I try to pull out all the stops with triplets, variations etc that I can lose the timing of a tune. Return to the bare bones of the tune, or pick settings of tunes that you can play, without all the triplets etc.
Fast banjo playing isn't always the best anyway. It'd be great to have the technical expertise of Gerry Banjo or Enda Scahill, and they are two of my favourite players, but speed and flashy technique isn't always the answer. Listen to Angelina Carbery's playing for example. She plays beautifully and at a civilized pace and without too much prominent decoration, but manages to get a hell of a lot out of the tunes with beautiful phrasing and dynamics. Give her a listen and you'll see what I mean.
cenn faeled, I agree with your sentiments about Angelina, her playing is a true delight.
She doesn't hang around though, if you try and play along with it you'll soon realise it's much faster than you think. Somewhere around 210 beats a minute for the reels, which is a decent speed. It's just incredibly relaxed sounding because of her great rhythm. Tasteful playing indeed.
Does anyone play The Dogs Among the Bushes in Amaj, second part is a dog!
This doesn't sound like pathological performance anxiety which is related more to performing than to the speed of the music the way you describe it. Instead you probably have reached a limit on speed because you are not prepared to play that fast and if you are trying to add ornamentation your level of preparation is inadequate for that particular challenge.
What is most likely happening is that you are tensing up and the net result of both flexor and extenor muscles working at the same time is that you slow down. If you ask any short sprinter how to go faster, they will always tell you to relax and only use the muscles that you run with. This is not easy because there is a little performance anxiety present anytime that you play in public and the natural "fight or flight" response always puts you in a tenser flexor mode. All it takes if a little of that and you slow down.
Speed is greatly over rated. Granted some banjo players can play that fast, but they have a superior talent and they do it for a living. John Carty once remarked in a workshop I attended that he "wished (he) could play fast" but very few of us can play at rapid session speeds and put in all the ornamentation. I know I can't.
I agree with the notion that if you are going to play the tune at warp 9, just play the tune. No one will miss the trebles anyway and you will have a lot more fun.
BTW, this is a very common problem amongst athletes and other performers. The solution is more training and your idea of getting a teacher is a very good one.
Very nice explanation (kind of goes to my parenthetical in my earlier post).
You touch on what one older player advised me when I was having performance (on my non-ITM instrument, the piano) issues.
He said to go back to why I started playing and reacquaint myself. I started, like most of us, because it is fun. I try to do ITM for that reason also. God knows I'll never make any money at it!
Loosening up, listening and enjoying what we are doing makes a world of difference.
Happens to everyone, especially if others join in and you are used to playing on your own. You start to panic, get faster and faster, and then run out of notes. Practice and patience will cure this.
Yep, good advice from all (or at least most of all) above
Relaxation is the first key. I was just having this conversation at a session on Sunday. I always forget to relax until I am really cranking on a set, and realize that my right arm is getting tired. That reminds me to relax, and the fast playing sounds better relaxed too!
I never have as much problems on reels as I do on jigs, because I pick jigs DUD DUD, which is more difficult to do fast. So this might give you a reason to look at your picking pattern.
Do you pick reels with a fully reciprocal motion? (DUDU DUDU DUDU) I had problems with speed a number of years ago, and a teacher of mine watched my hand for 5 seconds before he said "you're having trouble because you're cheating on your picking". In other words, I wasn't cross picking. So for instance if I went from a note on the A string to a note on the D string, I was usually picking it UP, whether it was a downbeat or not. Once you're comfortable with ALWAYS picking DUDU DUDU on reels, it is MUCH easier to just crank up the speed!
Interestingly enough, John Carty doesn't specifically pick a reciprocal motion, he just picks whichever direction that he wants. And I've heard him play pretty darn fast (no matter what he says) But he never seems to crank it up to, say, the speed range of Brian "Machine Gun" Kelly.
The interesting question is if you can play at the same speed at home with a constant tempo? One thing which can very easily stiffen your muscles at higher speeds is that if the tempo fluctuates. It doesn't have to be clearly noticeable by ear. I once played with a guitar player who looked down upon practising with the metronome. It was so darned difficult to play with him while I could play cleanly when he wasn't there. One day I asked him to back up with a drum machine and he just couldn't follow the beat. I was happy I did that because until that moment I had blaimed only myself.
I'm not so sure about the advice about just playing without the trebles and stuff. The banjo is such a percussive instrument anyway if the only sound coming out of it is the shotgun repetition of DUDU DUDU DUDU etc it's just gonna reinforce the old adage of it all sounding the same. I just hate diddley music when it's just that breakneck wall to wall repetition, horrid horrid.
Don't get me wrong, playing fast can be great, but you've got to be able to. No half measures. It's worse than a pointless exercise to simply up the tempo and leave stuff out. Just remember, that while playing fast can be great, you don't have to.
"It's worse than a pointless exercise to simply up the tempo and leave stuff out" .
I agree totally Michael, but surely one has to work up towards "perfection". It's not going to happen by practicing on your own at home. What I have in mind is the style of the early De Dannan recordings where Charlie Piggot was very economic with ornamentation, leaving it to the fiddle to fill it out. Is that not the purpose of the fiddle after all?
I call that flat eight to the bar banjo playing the "clockwork" reel style. Some people seem to like it - possibly people who don''t play for dances. You can make a banjo swing without playing all 8 notes, never mind the ornaments (although I'll admit that intelligent triples and so on make things more interesting). By keeping the melody simple and subtly moving the rhythm around within the bar you can prevent death from boredom.
Make sure you have a shot of whiskey and a pint. It relieves the tension and builds confidence! Of course, you don't want to go much more than that 'cause you get too relaxed and sloppy. When not in session, practice tunes with CDs of players like Gerry O'Connor, Cathal Hayden, Kieran Hanrahan, etc. (speedy, timed-ornamented players) using The Amazing Slowdowner. Begin at 60-70% and work your way up. You get in a trance with all the repetition and eventually you can do it on your own. I've been playing for 6 years and this has helped tremendously. I don't have trouble with timing and ornamentation that much anymore. I also make sure I have that shot first!
Help,My banjo does not like me?
Help,My banjo does not like me?
I am playing the tenor banjo (ITM) for 5 years and have a few problems. I find it hard to keep up with the speed of reels in a session.I tend to panic and my pick hand turns to lead,has anyone got any idea of my problem.Does anyone know of a banjo teachers in the Boston area.
Thank you.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by mick_the_tool
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Sound like performance anxiety (assuming you are diligently practicing at session speed and do not have unrealistic expectations for your current skill level). Kind of a new area of medical treatment. Been in music for forty years and have had some problems the past few in certain situation with certain musicians.
There are a few articles on the web. Some porpose biofeedback and such to relax. For a non-drink/non-drug (beta blockers, prescribed of course) there are proponents of eating bananas before a playing.
I tried the bananas for a big gig last month. It seemed to work.
Food for thought (no pun intended)
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
The more you get use to playing in front of people(not meant to be interpreted as a performance of coarse) the less it will happen, you have a mental bloke now that you need to lose, just relax and enjoy the seesion and you'll become comfortable soon enogh.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by fap
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
I lost a mental bloke once. The police located him at a hospital for me.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Wurzel
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
mental blokes? We've had them at the Blythe.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Just keep practicing, you'll get there in the end. Do you practice at a decent tempo? Speed can be very subtle, just a few extra beats per minute than you're used to can throw you off.
Sorry can't help with tutors, I'm in UK.
Any banjo players fancy playing along with Barney and the High Reel? Good luck!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmE5pw_XYQg&NR
That's getting on for 300 beats per minute near the end. Ludicrous!!!
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Tigermoth
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Last time I played at that speed, two dancers had heart attacks and I had to promise to slow down.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
"porpose biofeedback"? Isn't that for Saving Willy?
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
oldstrings
sorry meant "propose biofeedback". Really touchy-feeley stuff. And it costs money because you have to see someone who thinks they are an "expert".
Most effective was my wife's very wise counsel about the head-case player who was causing me problems....
Sayeth Herself: "You got a bigger, louder instrument.....Ignore what she is doing and play over her!"
That and a banana worked wonders.......I'm also told Guiness is a great substitute for the banana.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
My advice is, forget about ornamentation for a bit. In fact, forget about it completely until it comes back naturally in your playing. One of the down sides of the (relatively) modern way of teaching Irish music, where ornamentation is almost more important than flow or rhythm, is that it creates an "urgency" in the playing. If your'e nervous, that becomes a major problem.
That...............and try the Guinness!
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Backer
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Could be possible that the session you're in is a particularly fast one. How does it compare to other sessions/recordings? Maybe start your own set at a pace of your own and see how your pick hand fares then. If you still panic at your own pace, then its definitely just because you're not used to playing in front of many people and the only was to solve that is to keep turning up and getting used to the speed. Personally i think speed can ruin many tunes
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by copo24
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
I agree totally with Backer. Relax, get the rhythm right first and the "session speed" shouldn't be a problem. The ornamentation will follow.
Btw, I used to go early to sessions and have a few pints beforehand. It worked for me way back then but I gradually grew out of that habit as it was having an adverse effect as I got older
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
I concur with Backer. I've been playing banjo and mandola for about five years, and find that when I try to pull out all the stops with triplets, variations etc that I can lose the timing of a tune. Return to the bare bones of the tune, or pick settings of tunes that you can play, without all the triplets etc.
Fast banjo playing isn't always the best anyway. It'd be great to have the technical expertise of Gerry Banjo or Enda Scahill, and they are two of my favourite players, but speed and flashy technique isn't always the answer. Listen to Angelina Carbery's playing for example. She plays beautifully and at a civilized pace and without too much prominent decoration, but manages to get a hell of a lot out of the tunes with beautiful phrasing and dynamics. Give her a listen and you'll see what I mean.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Sinocal
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
cenn faeled, I agree with your sentiments about Angelina, her playing is a true delight.
She doesn't hang around though, if you try and play along with it you'll soon realise it's much faster than you think. Somewhere around 210 beats a minute for the reels, which is a decent speed. It's just incredibly relaxed sounding because of her great rhythm. Tasteful playing indeed.
Does anyone play The Dogs Among the Bushes in Amaj, second part is a dog!
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Tigermoth
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
its like the Emperor says in the film "Amadeus":
"....too many notes, Mozart....."
listen to Kieran Hanrahan (of Stockton's Wing, I think) there's a solo CD of his out now. Hell of a player and a jolly nice chap too I believe.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Mick,
This doesn't sound like pathological performance anxiety which is related more to performing than to the speed of the music the way you describe it. Instead you probably have reached a limit on speed because you are not prepared to play that fast and if you are trying to add ornamentation your level of preparation is inadequate for that particular challenge.
What is most likely happening is that you are tensing up and the net result of both flexor and extenor muscles working at the same time is that you slow down. If you ask any short sprinter how to go faster, they will always tell you to relax and only use the muscles that you run with. This is not easy because there is a little performance anxiety present anytime that you play in public and the natural "fight or flight" response always puts you in a tenser flexor mode. All it takes if a little of that and you slow down.
Speed is greatly over rated. Granted some banjo players can play that fast, but they have a superior talent and they do it for a living. John Carty once remarked in a workshop I attended that he "wished (he) could play fast" but very few of us can play at rapid session speeds and put in all the ornamentation. I know I can't.
I agree with the notion that if you are going to play the tune at warp 9, just play the tune. No one will miss the trebles anyway and you will have a lot more fun.
BTW, this is a very common problem amongst athletes and other performers. The solution is more training and your idea of getting a teacher is a very good one.
Mike Keyes
http://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.com/mental_training/mental_training.html
http://www.mikekeyes.com
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Mike
Very nice explanation (kind of goes to my parenthetical in my earlier post).
You touch on what one older player advised me when I was having performance (on my non-ITM instrument, the piano) issues.
He said to go back to why I started playing and reacquaint myself. I started, like most of us, because it is fun. I try to do ITM for that reason also. God knows I'll never make any money at it!
Loosening up, listening and enjoying what we are doing makes a world of difference.
Thanks for your advice.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
btw feargal o geara is copo24, (not that its not obvious)
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by fap
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Happens to everyone, especially if others join in and you are used to playing on your own. You start to panic, get faster and faster, and then run out of notes. Practice and patience will cure this.
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
not strictly to do with this thread but what is the second tune on the barney clip (youtube)
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by g7bes
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
I'll try the banana method. The Guinness gets between my head and my fingers.
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
try playing slide banjo with the banana, that be good for a laugh
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by fap
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
"not strictly to do with this thread but what is the second tune on the barney clip (youtube)"
Boyne Hunt
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/142
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by Tigermoth
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Yep, good advice from all (or at least most of all) above
Relaxation is the first key. I was just having this conversation at a session on Sunday. I always forget to relax until I am really cranking on a set, and realize that my right arm is getting tired. That reminds me to relax, and the fast playing sounds better relaxed too!
I never have as much problems on reels as I do on jigs, because I pick jigs DUD DUD, which is more difficult to do fast. So this might give you a reason to look at your picking pattern.
Do you pick reels with a fully reciprocal motion? (DUDU DUDU DUDU) I had problems with speed a number of years ago, and a teacher of mine watched my hand for 5 seconds before he said "you're having trouble because you're cheating on your picking". In other words, I wasn't cross picking. So for instance if I went from a note on the A string to a note on the D string, I was usually picking it UP, whether it was a downbeat or not. Once you're comfortable with ALWAYS picking DUDU DUDU on reels, it is MUCH easier to just crank up the speed!
Interestingly enough, John Carty doesn't specifically pick a reciprocal motion, he just picks whichever direction that he wants. And I've heard him play pretty darn fast (no matter what he says) But he never seems to crank it up to, say, the speed range of Brian "Machine Gun" Kelly.
Pete
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
The interesting question is if you can play at the same speed at home with a constant tempo? One thing which can very easily stiffen your muscles at higher speeds is that if the tempo fluctuates. It doesn't have to be clearly noticeable by ear. I once played with a guitar player who looked down upon practising with the metronome. It was so darned difficult to play with him while I could play cleanly when he wasn't there. One day I asked him to back up with a drum machine and he just couldn't follow the beat. I was happy I did that because until that moment I had blaimed only myself.
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by Risto
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
I'm not so sure about the advice about just playing without the trebles and stuff. The banjo is such a percussive instrument anyway if the only sound coming out of it is the shotgun repetition of DUDU DUDU DUDU etc it's just gonna reinforce the old adage of it all sounding the same. I just hate diddley music when it's just that breakneck wall to wall repetition, horrid horrid.
Don't get me wrong, playing fast can be great, but you've got to be able to. No half measures. It's worse than a pointless exercise to simply up the tempo and leave stuff out. Just remember, that while playing fast can be great, you don't have to.
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by ...
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
"It's worse than a pointless exercise to simply up the tempo and leave stuff out" .
I agree totally Michael, but surely one has to work up towards "perfection". It's not going to happen by practicing on your own at home. What I have in mind is the style of the early De Dannan recordings where Charlie Piggot was very economic with ornamentation, leaving it to the fiddle to fill it out. Is that not the purpose of the fiddle after all?
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by Backer
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
I call that flat eight to the bar banjo playing the "clockwork" reel style. Some people seem to like it - possibly people who don''t play for dances. You can make a banjo swing without playing all 8 notes, never mind the ornaments (although I'll admit that intelligent triples and so on make things more interesting). By keeping the melody simple and subtly moving the rhythm around within the bar you can prevent death from boredom.
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Hi,
Thank you for all your information, I am sure it will help.
Mick_the_tool.
# Posted on January 26th 2007 by mick_the_tool
Re: Help,My banjo does not like me?
Make sure you have a shot of whiskey and a pint. It relieves the tension and builds confidence! Of course, you don't want to go much more than that 'cause you get too relaxed and sloppy. When not in session, practice tunes with CDs of players like Gerry O'Connor, Cathal Hayden, Kieran Hanrahan, etc. (speedy, timed-ornamented players) using The Amazing Slowdowner. Begin at 60-70% and work your way up. You get in a trance with all the repetition and eventually you can do it on your own. I've been playing for 6 years and this has helped tremendously. I don't have trouble with timing and ornamentation that much anymore. I also make sure I have that shot first!
# Posted on January 28th 2007 by banjobabe