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Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Something Steve Jones said on the, "Complete the Sentence...." thread inspired this query.
My understanding of the way musicians in Ireland develop is that it usually starts while people are in their youth mostly. They develop their skills long before they would turn up in pubs and could be heard playing in a public space such as that. On the other hand, around most of the rest of the world, people discover ITM and sessions as adults and might turn up awkwardly squeaking and screeching at a similar level that youngsters in Ireland would be doing in the privacy of their homes. The popularity of Irish sessions seems to compel some people to want to experience participating in it long before they’ve developed the skills to make it sound pleasing.
So how is this possibly effecting the overall impression people have in general about Irish music? Is what I described above having little or no effect, or is it giving ITM a negative association for the general public?
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Round these parts sessions aren't common enough to make a major difference to the perception of ITM (if it exists.)
On the other hand, your note makes me think of the horror that my daughter and her Irish dancing friends have of the thought that their parents might sign up for dance classes and - god forbid - enter the over 21 section of their competitions. A public display of over the hill adults attempting steps the kids learned eons ago as wee uns.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
An interesting thesis, but it doesn't match my experience here in the States. The sheer speed and spontaneity of most sessions I've sat in on tends to limit newbie participation.
Around here, most people get up to speed on a small bag of tunes, which they then join in on at the local session. They gradually add tunes at home. The newbies don't play out on tunes they don't know, so the clinkers and squawks are at a minimum.
Also, it's not unusual here in the US to find people who started playing this music when they were kids (I include myself here, starting at 14 after a youth mispent on bluegrass and rock). Especially true around Philly, Boston, New York, and Chicago. But even in the hinterland there are kids learning the tunes who can hold their own at a power session by the time they're teens. So the quality of music tends to be quite high (for a bunch of friends and neighbors who have day jobs).
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
same here in Chicago grego
Folks here expect a performance. And the performance has been invaded by "trained professional musicians and vocalists" who constantly crab about trebles, rolls and slides because "they're not on the music!". No place for regular players.
And don't sit next to the piano player when she has the lid up on a grand. Can't hear anything else but her.
If you call them sessions, the only places I been able to play over the years for the purpose of playing-as opposed to performing in front of people who drink, talk and smoke too much and don't give a care about what you are playing- is among freinds.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I was in East Clare when the kids were off from school and met quite a few at sessions. There were also a handful of adults from the area who, like myself, are not exactly advanced players. Many of these were students of the session leaders. They were invited to start sets of tunes or play solos (or play in small groups). It was done in a very supportive way. The quality of the playing was variable - mostly pretty good, but sometimes a little shaky. Some of the kids were not good at sticking to the tempo the leader set. (The two youngest, ages 10 and 12, were among the best, however.)
There's also a regular series of sessions for young players that get announced on the trad shows on Clare FM. I think they usually have well-known older musicians in to lead it.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Adult newbie here, and I'm sure I'm not unique among adult newbies in that:
- I know full well that with seven months of playing history, I'm not terribly good.
- I don't want to embarrass myself.
- The better I get, the more fun I have at sessions.
My session is open to everyone; as I've posted elsewhere, I started playing there less than three months after I first picked up the fiddle. I played very little my first time, and I only joined in on the tunes I was confident I could play at speed. Over the past few months, I've joined in on more, and sometimes I'll realize mid-tune that I'm in over my head, so I'll sit out for the rest. I don't yet have the skills, as you say, Phantom, to make my music "sound pleasing", and I don't want to ruin the session! If everyone at my session were at my level, *and* joined in on every tune, sure, we'd sound like crap. But fortunately, most of the participants are well above my level and we're good enough collectively that we've had punters tell us how much they enjoyed listening to us - which suggests that what we're doing isn't overtly detrimental to the tradition. (It's also been my experience that non-musicians aren't very good at discriminating among players of different abilities. I've had people who were half-listening to me play tell me that I was great, and then ask me, unironically, if I'd been playing fiddle since I was a kid. I'm not bragging here, as no musician would ask me that; it's obvious to anyone who knows anything that I'm a beginner.)
Newbies don't stay newbies forever. A sufficiently friendly, welcoming session should draw a regular crowd of musicians who improve over time. Part of what I like about my session is that it gives me a chance to see how I'm improving week by week, and that motivates me to come back. I suspect I'll still be motivated in this way a few years from now, when (hopefully) I'll actually have developed the skills to sound pleasing.
Phantom, your post makes it sound like sessions west of the Atlantic are populated almost entirely by people who can't play, which doesn't seem like it would be the norm. Who wants to participate in such an event?
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Seems odd too, to characterize Irish sessions as "popular." Most I've been to are on an "off" night for the pub--Sunday through Thursday, with Fridays and Saturdays reserved for more mainstream music.
That said, our session has been "popular" among local amateur acoustic musicians looking for tunes and good company. Some of them drifted over from the Old Timey jam, and the Tuesday open session welcomes them. My hunch is that they like the sound of Irish music, and the fact that everyone plays together--lots of cover, so mistakes are less obvious. But only a couple of these players have stuck it out and really started to learn the repertoire. Those that have are clearly practicing a lot at home, so they're rapidly fitting in and playing very well.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
TD&M, as I said, I was inspired by something Steve Jones said on the, "Complete the Sentence...." thread and it wasn't about any particular session, or the ones out here in general. I have seen a few sessions here and in other places where there is quite a bit of what I discribed above, and Steve's comments reminded me of them and prompted this thread. I remember on those occasions wondering what the people in the pub thought... if anything, and how it might effect their impression of ITM.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Okay. But in my purely anecdotal rambles the sessions I've heard have made high quality music, easily mistaken for a good professional "bar band" sound (i.e., tight, in tune, played with passion, even mistakeable for "rehearsed"). This in spite of the ephemeral nature of some sessions and the fact that in many, the sets were spontaneous, not pre-arranged.
In the States anyway, few pubs will agree to host a session if the overall musicianship sucks. So the sessions that last are the ones with at least a core of decent players who can keep the tunes going.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Will... what I mean by "popular" is that they are found worldwide. Many Irish pubs around the world feature sessions now. Many of these are in areas where you'll find mostly beginners among the ranks. These sessions might be the first exposure to ITM for a lot of people. I cringe when I think of how I might have contributed to this possible negative association back when my playing was made up of mostly squeaks and squawks. I only wish I had the benefit of starting at an age long before I became eligible to drink in pubs. And I wish I had the patience and good sense to wait until I could play halfway decent before I joined any session. Oh well...
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Speaking of my experience in sessions in England, ITM sessions have been welcome in many a pub, often in a back room or in a corner of a long one. I am grateful that this is so, because sitting in an in-turned huddle and playing for ourselves - which is what those of us who are not "performing" types are actually doing - could be seen as quite unsocial. Plenty of people like the music going on in the back, and the odd pint gets sent over. Our drink intake is also likely to please the landlord.
Decades back, I remember sessions being jeopardised by (young) blind drunk sessioneers refusing to pack in at closing time, or whatever; and the times of the Troubles could make people edgy about anything Irish. But basically, the English pub scene has given us a lot of tolerance and leeway. That's been my experience, anyway.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Our weekly session is held in an avowedly 'Oirish' pub here on Monday nights, so the place is fairly empty until later in the evening. Sometimes there is applause from the otherwise indifferent punters, mostly not. The acoustics are appalling, so once there are more than a dozen people in the place it gets very difficult to hear each other play, or for the punters to hear us, as the place is a bit of an echo chamber. The only complaint I've ever heard of was after the one time we decided to tack on a learner's session before the regular session. Too many beginning pipers going at once can be traumatic for anyone - an abortive experiment that was quickly terminated in favor of a separate learner's session.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I don't really understand the question, but it seems to me that a lot of kids in Ireland do start quite young. But they also play in pub sessions from a very young age.
My experience of Irish sessions is mainly in the West, particularly up in Sligo. And most of that experience is, admittedly, quite some time ago. But the last time I was up there, about 3 years ago, it was still the same family atmosphere in the pub sessions, with kids as young as 5 or 6 joining in. I didn't hear many - sorry, that should read ANY - squeaks and squawks, either.
One session down in Clonmel the other year, that went late on into the night, there was this group of giggling 8- or 9-year old girls. Then, from time to time, there'd be one of those unspoken, invisible signals and the pub would fall silent. And this young girl played whistle. And I swear, it was just breathtaking.
I suppose part of what I'm saying is, in some parts at least, the kids DO actually grow up with sessions, in pubs and elsewhere, right from the start. Mind you, unlike you and me, they never go through a sqeaky, squawky stage.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Ben writes: "I didn't hear many - sorry, that should read ANY - squeaks and squawks, either."
That's what I'm talking about; they get a very early start there. The ones that might show up at the pub and play might already prove to be exceptional. When I talk to people from Ireland about this they give me the impression that if you haven't learned to play by secondary school you might as well give up on the idea. The only Irish people I know that took up the music as an adult did so after coming here and seeing Americans learning as adults and decided to give it a go. You aren't likely to find many Irish adults awkwardly squeaking and squawking at the local pub in Ireland though.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
There are far more young, really good players in England now than 30 - 40 years ago. This is because a good many are offspring of the first lot of Revival "folkies", and did start playing as kids. They pick up styles and tunes and influences from all over the place including various parts of Europe as well as Scotland and Ireland and the bits that interest them of North America. Many come to Folkworks weeks and attend the Newcastle degree course in NE England. They have a mastery most of us who started later will never have. And yet...there can be a samey "Folkworks sound" to their music. Mind, they're still young. It's good to hear them.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I met a woman from the Feakle/Scarriff area, I'm guessing 30-something, maybe late 20s, who is getting back to the fiddle after having started young and having given it up for a long time. Her intonation was a little wobbly, and she didn't know all that many of the tunes, but she was welcomed at the four sessions where I saw her.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Yeah, PB, but in the places I know (apart from Dublin, where I will be in about 3 weeks time - fancy a pint, Mairtin?, or are you down West then?), I get the feeling that a lot of the kids who are in the sessions are actually not that special - well, at least, they don't think so. But my point was that they do go out and play in public spaces from a very early age - I don't think they sit at home and work it out first. Well, I suppose they must do so a bit, 'cos we all do, don't we?
Back to the question, though, and I feel I might understand it a bit better now, I don't think it matters what reputation ITM has. As long as people try and play it as well as they can, and there will always be good sessions and less good sessions, and really great ones that we'll carry on experiencing every now and then, somewhere, somewhen.
In other words, the sqeakers and sqawkers might put some people off, but so what? There'll always be a great session just around the corner ... next week ...
Put it yet another way, I don't care what most of the world thinks of ITM, as long as there's enough decent players around so I can have a great session now and then and have my fun.
(I'm wondering if I might be saying something similar to what KML was thinking in his earlier post.)
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Gary, my query isn't about whether wobbly players should be unwelcome at sessions; but rather about the scenario laid out in the "Complete this sentence" thread. In Feakle yer one is surrounded by top-notch players no doubt and would blend into the overall sound pretty well I would imagine. But if the session was somewhere outside of Ireland where most of the players were wobbly and could be heard very well -- what impression would that leave on people in the pub who are hearing ITM for the first time?
(I'm really hoping I don't have to re-state the question too many times here)
I would like to add that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with beginners at sessions or that I have a strong opinion about this... I'm just wondering what you guys think.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I think Danny hit it on the head. If it's a session for your own fun, who cares what the masses think?
I can imagine some people walk into our pub with no prior experience of Irish music. Some have no doubt heard Riverdance, or the Clancy Brothers, or the soundtrack to Lord of the Rings. Some respond just to the diddly nature of the music--pleasant drunks will break ingto a faux jig. But most probably see it in the general context of live music, notice that it's acoustic (no sound system, at least at most sessions), with too few songs for most modern tastes, like nothing they've got on their ipods, with half the musicians sitting with their backs turned to anyone whom might be listening, and they go on about their business.
We get a fair number of folks who have heard the music before--from the local step dancing schools, or when a 'name' band comes to town, or from casual listening to cds. These people tend to respond more actively to our music, almost always favorably. I've never heard anyone begrudge the newbies or less experienced players.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I've never seen a session that was all wobbly players.
And sometimes it takes only one strong player to pull everyone else into shape.
Distance from Ireland, or even connectedness to it, doesn't have much of anything to do with how good (or not) a session may be. The tradition, healthy and community-centered, is what it is, wherever it sprouts. It's not about creating mini Peppers experiences in other places. It's about celebrating the music wherever you find it.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Um, I hope we don't have to restate the obvious too often: "the music" can't be hurt by bad players, only the overall absence of talented, passionate players.
My guess is that we have plenty of the latter at this point in time, and younguns with promise picking up the music.
Maybe what's more to the point here is the role the music plays in human society. It still can be a focal point of neighbors gathering for fun and company. But it's no doubt changed from what it once was in many of the small towns of Ireland. In some places, it's become a commodity, a tourist attraction, an excuse for drinking.
Most of the sessions I've been to happen out of love for the music, enjoyment of the craic, and camaraderie. I don't think they're doing any harm to the music.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
My solution in such a case would be to find a back room of a pub and / or ask permission to use it on a slack night of the week. That way you're least likely to annoy patrons, and with any luck the playing will gradually become better, tighter - and more presentable, should you be asked to, or wish to, perform.
Indifferent Irish music in a pub is generally tolerated if it's a sensible distance from the punters (at any rate at first) - I think it's as simple as that. ITM is still a novelty in England generally: an English short-list of Irish musicians is more likely to run to U2, Thin Lizzy, Enya and The Pogues, in that or any order. Often a punter has expressed great pleasure in coming across live music in a pub as opposed to canned or jukebox. Naturally most English people haven't seen and heard a top-notch ITM player at close quarters, so haven't that standard by which to judge our efforts.
And the impression made by indifferent ITM on punters? They generally keep their thoughts to themselves, so I can't speak for most of them.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Will writes: "I've never seen a session that was all wobbly players."
That confirms that this isn't about your session. We aren't talking about my regular session either. It sounds like the session described on the ‘sentence’ thread might qualify, but I'm not sure. I have come across sessions where wobbly playing is predominant though.
Occasionally someone will come in who still needs to put time into practicing, but they get their instrument out regardless and some hideous sounds come out. On those occasions I have noticed some interesting looks from people nearby, but I have no idea what kind of impression this leaves since it's so rare.
Also, this thread isn't questioning why we play, whether beginners should or shouldn't be welcomed etc. etc., it's just about what impression some of the shakier sessions might be having on people who aren’t familiar with ITM. Are their any other genres that have a phenomenon like sessions where novice and beginner players are heard out in public places like pubs?
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
"Are their any other genres that have a phenomenon like sessions where novice and beginner players are heard out in public places like pubs?"
Yes, you see it at bluegrass festivals and folk festivals all the time---the amateurs jamming out in the parking lot. Usually it's pretty obvious that they are the amateurs, and if you want the music at its best you have to mosey on over to the stage where the professionals are.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I've also been to friends' houses where many of the guests have brought an instrument with them, and someone sings a song. I've gone camping and sung along with friends with guitars and banjos. I've hung out in parks and watched people with instruments play at varying levels of expertise. It's pretty easy to distinguish the amateur efforts from the advanced level of play and to appreciate the fact that ordinary people are willing to try to make music even though they're not fantastic at it. It's kind of nice, actually. Reminds us that music is for everyone, and not just something to be bought and consumed like everything else in our lives.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
i have to say that i don't give two you-know-whats about what kind of impression the american "general public" at least, gets about itm through sessions. to this group, itm had its moment (a decade or two at most) as a flavor of the month in the world music arena, and the "general public" has moved on. the celtic/irish section at the amoeba records in my city has almost no pure drop recordings, a few "greatest hits" bands such as teada and solas, and a TON of new agey celtic crap and enya. the better session in my area takes place at an irish pub [with very fair and generous owners, btw] where after 45 minutes or so, the "hooters"-like din is such that you can't hear the player on either side of you. that pub was hosting a session on sundays plus another on tuesday nights, for years. the tuesday one was just cancelled due to lack of interest among the "general public," which would rather have the huge sports screens or hooters type music going.
i believe that at the current time, to the degree that any member of the "gp" has the potential to appreciate the music, those few folks won't be seeing the light in bars, regardless of the quality of the players.
my concern is rather, can playing in sessions be detrimental to a developing musician? but we already did that thread, i think....
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
"my concern is rather, can playing in sessions be detrimental to a developing musician? but we already did that thread, i think...."
Huh? At least, let's qualify it. Beginners (developing mucisians) should play in a slow sessions, no? If general session ettiquette is adhered to, a newbie shouldn't be squawking as they shouldn't be practicing at a 'good' session, right? When there are no more ITM sessions, we can ask if that's beneficial to the music and "what happened?". I can't see how popularity would be bad for preserving anything you want preserved.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Kennedy, playing in the parking lot at a festival is different than what I was asking about. The people that go to bluegrass festivals are already familiar with the music and will understand what's going on in the parking lot. What I'm wondering is… are there other genres where the music is played in a public place (like a pub) where people might normally expect to find musicians who've already honed their craft, but instead find a group of people who seem to have only recently started learning? I've gone to jazz jams and watched people ‘sit in’, but they're all fairly proficient already. It’s the same with other similar genres, but the Irish session is the only one that I've seen where people sit down to play who might be in the process of learning from the beginning. Sometimes the group might consist of mostly beginners such as these. Again, I’m not criticizing this or suggesting it shouldn’t be; I’m just wondering if any other genres have similar circumstances in public places like the local pub.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Jack, let me clarify to you that by saying "I've never seen a session that was all wobbly players," I'm NOT talking about just my current local session (so please stop fixating on that red herring and suggesting that that's what I'm doing).
I've been in sessions on the East Coast, West Coast, Canada, and many points in between. None of them was ever all or even predominantly wobbly players.
And for the life of me, I don't understand why you'd post a question here of all places aimed at sussing out what people think who "arent't familiar with ITM." I doubt anyone here is qualified to answer that, since we're all almost by definition "famliar with ITM." You need a Gallup poll of the general public of Fiji, not a sampling of session.orger's views.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Well... I've seen a couple, and I've heard about a couple, and people on this message board have talked about beginners joining sessions. I'd say it's not so unusual based on comments I've read on this website, someone that experienced another musician squeaking and squawking at a session started the thread that inspired this one.
As far as your ‘red herring’ is concerned… I was just making sure there was no misunderstanding that we weren’t talking about either of our sessions. As you know, we’ve had problems on that point in the past.
And if it’s your opinion that my question doesn’t belong on this website… don’t answer it.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
We've had problems with the red herring of talking about one specific session only because you misread what I've written.
And no, it's NOT my opinion that your question doesn't belong here. All I said was I can't understand why you'd ask this particular pool of people, since we're all familiar with "ITM." Seems to me you'd get a more useful answer from people who aren't familiar with ITM, since it's their views you're interested in.
Just because a lone wobbly beginner shows up at a session now and then doesn't mean they "predominate" or that it's the norm for this genre, or that it never happens in Ireland,. Seems to me you're over-reaching to extrapolate all that from the few bitch and moan comments on this web site.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
In fact, you've said so yourself in previous threads--citing an example of behavior you don't like, but then acknowledging that it's not the norm (just disruptive when it does happen). For every complaint about session wreckers, someone's pointed out that this web format favors the occasional gripe session, but that doesn't mean it's a fair representation of reality. And you've been one of the more vocal proponents of this view.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Beebs' thread is a good case in point. Some people *are* indeed put off and offended if anyone dares to noodle or learn a tune on the fly or sit in for a few tunes even though they're not session veterans yet. To me this says less about how "wobbly" the offending musician might be, and more about the person who would demand such puckered tight standards at something as fun and informal as a session.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Will, it doesn't seem like you understand the question I'm asking. The reason I pointed to that thread is because they were talking about players who are basically beginners and haven't honed their skills but will sit down and play regardless. Some sessions are even established to cater to this level of playing specifically, but they often happen in pubs. I'm wondering if any other genre has anything similar, or if this is unique to Irish trad.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
2 points:
At the risk of repeating myself, PB, I don't think any of us should worry one little bit about what the public, or indeed, anyone, thinks about ITM as a result of poor standards in some sessions. It doesn't matter. It would only matter if things got so bad that no pubs would let us in, or if the general standard of musicianship deteriorated enough to spoil our fun, and neither of those seems to be happening. In fact, in the UK, pubs are often extremely keen to get us in.
Second point: "Beginners (developing mucisians) should play in a slow sessions, no?" No, no NO. Sessions are for people. Beginners should go to sessions and observe the etiquette, and do what someone else described here somewhere (can't remember where) and play the one or two tunes they can play and gradually pick things up. Only way to do it, really, notwithstanding any previous posts I may have made on the 'Are Beginners Sessions a Good Idea?' or whatever it was called thread last year. (Anyway, even if they do go to 'Beginners' sessions, they should still come to a 'session')
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Jack, there are several old-timey sessions where I live, but I haven't been to them yet so I can't say what the standard is.
Of the Irish sessions I've been to here, there is one slow session where beginners predominate, but it's so obviously a learning session that no casual onlooker is going to mistake it for anything else.
For the life of me, I can't understand why you worry so much about what non-musicians think about session music. The sessions carry on regardless, there are enough pub owners who want it, so why does it matter what the public thinks?
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Over here, there are 'English' sessions in the pubs. Judging from the racket, I assume they're all beginners who go to them. (But I wouldn't expect them to worry about what I think.) There used to be jazz 'sessions' in some pubs too, and I've sat in on a few, but that was 30 years ago or more - I'm not aware of them happening any more.
'Slow sessions' - negative impact? No. The music is the music. I suppose it might be possible, as I alluded to above, for publicans to think that sqeaks and sqawks was the norm in an Irish music session, and therefore not to allow them in, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of that happening, so I'm not worried.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Sorry, Kennedy, I care about what everybody thinks. There seems to be a trend to be exclusive in some of these threads and to dismiss the non-musicians as irrelevant. In our local pub I often arrive early and stay after to laugh, drink and visit with friends who aren't musicians. Why do some of you feel the need to write off the presence of non-musicians who are in fact sharing the same space you're having your sessions in? I guess you shouldn’t complain when they laugh and talk loud, crowd you out or start singing rebel songs while you’re having your sessions. Why should they give a flying fart for us if we couldn’t care less about them?
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Good Lord, here we go again. You don't need to worry about what the public thinks because we all already know what they think. Some know a lot about the music, some don't. Some like it a lot, some not so much. Most of them are drunk when they're listening to it.
I think your best strategy is to dress up as a girl and hang out in the women's bathrooms for a few evenings. Then you'll really get to hear the punters' point of view. Most of the conversations I hear are related to men and have nothing to do with music. Then there are the conversations about men from Ireland. Then they might start talking about how they were in Ireland once and dated this cute soccer player in Dublin, and how they love the music in the pub because it reminds them of the guy in Dublin. And then another might start talking about some cute guitar player she met in Dublin once.
You'd be surprised at the comments you hear while you're putting on your lipstick. Get yourself a good disguise, Jack. It'll open up a new world for you.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Kennedy, your insights from the ladies jax is very interesting and all, but I'm not about to put a dress on and apply lipstick in there any time soon... as much as I might enjoy the perspective, I think my beard would give me away and I'd really only end up finding out what the lads in jail think about... uh... jail. And I don't want to spend a night in jail with a dress on either come to think of it. It's a bad idea all together if you ask me.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Personally, as long as there is a variety of tempii and the tunes are not wall-to-wall fast reels, I think ITM sessions are beneficial as the punters do enjoy ITM over Scottish or trad English.
I do find some English session musicians are anti-IMT though.
Which is worse? -
scratching and scraping of beginners
40 verse laments
wild rover
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
What's unique about traditional Irish music is, I believe, that there's no clear boundary to separate the "performers" and the "audience." Anyone can be a player, a dancer, a singer, or a listener as long as everyone else can have a good time too. But I feel musicians are at the centre, and so it's their privilege to play just for themselves first. If they make good music and enjoy themselves, listeners will come along and warm up the session.
This music is rather popular in Japan too, but thankfully there's nothing detrimental to it. I've attended many Irish music sessions in Ireland, UK, and Japan, but I find no significant difference in the musicians' skills and their understanding of the music in these three countries.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Most sessions move at a pretty good clip. But my favorite session is unfortunately not a healthy one at this point. The publican, concerned that too many musicians were drinking him out of house and home, spent the last few years squeezing down the number of musicians that were allowed to play at any given time. This led to a lot of good local musicians opting not to show up. And so there have been evenings where there has only been one or two strong players, at which point, it becomes more work than fun to keep the music going. There has also been a decline in the attendance in the pub on that evening, which I think is directly related to the quality of the music, and gets to PB's point that the strength of the music can have an impact on its enjoyment by others. I am hoping that the publican puts two and two together, and starts taking a more accomodating view to the musicians who show up willing to play. It's a tough nut to craic, but I have hopes we can start things moving in a positive direction again.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
My impression of the American public is that by and large they are in total awe of anyone who has the nerve to perform in public, no matter how poorly. It's a smallish minority who listen critically.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I have noticed that myself Gary, I think that is how, despite my meager talents, I occasionally get paid to play music!!!!!
Seriously, there is a disturbing trend in America of people treating music as if playing it is something reserved for an elite few. I am willing to accept a few wobbly notes if it means more people are participating, and finding the joy of playing music, not just consuming it like it was some sort of commodity. That is why I don't mind the occasional "Whiskey in the Jar" or "Wild Rover," where everyone in the pub joins in on the chorus. It just opens the circle wider and includes more folks in the fun. Now, that doesn't mean I advocate anarchy, but there are many ways to promote inclusiveness without watering down the quality of the music.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Well Jack, you've changed your question every time you've reiterated it. I was responding to how you titled this thread. Several of us have given reasoned, articulate answers that do in fact respond to that question. Perhaps the problem here is that you don't want to hear what we have to say?
I for one would never say that non musicians at a session are irrelevant. In fact, I don't recall anyone actually meaning that here on the yella board. Some of us have suggested that their opinions about our playing music aren't relevant to why we play, but that's a very different sentiment. Either you don't understand the difference, or you're willfully misrepresenting mine and other's point of view on this. By doing so, you insulate yourself against the possibility of ever learning anything from the people here whose views are different than yours. So why ask for our opinions if you'll listen only to those who agree with you?
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Slainte wrote:
"What's unique about traditional Irish music is, I believe, that there's no clear boundary to separate the "performers" and the "audience." Anyone can be a player, a dancer, a singer, or a listener as long as everyone else can have a good time too. But I feel musicians are at the centre, and so it's their privilege to play just for themselves first. If they make good music and enjoy themselves, listeners will come along and warm up the session."
Spot on and as well said as anything I've ever seen on this topic.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
There's another missed point which is that session playing is simply a pleasent way to spend an evening enjoying the company of other people doing what you enjoy. I think the fact that ITM is a dance music is often ignored - the dancers are more important that the musicians. Sessions aren't very productive for learning anything other than repetoir (and given in Northumbria the shepherd-musicians would thing nothing of playing a celidh repeating a small number of tunes all evening) thats not the most important thing. So in this sense, yes, sessions are detrimental.
Re: "a samey folkworks/folk degree sound" - in my experience that doesn't stack up, certainly the participants are never encouraged to uniformify their musics. If there's a similarity it might just be skilled players who can be a bit exuberant with tempo occasionally.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Will, you seem bent on being confrontational with me and I refuse to get in another argument with you -- so I'm ignoring your comments unless you're willing to address my query without getting so personal. Thanks to the others who ARE addressing the question I raised in this thread.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
To continue with the conversation between Al and Gary... that's interesting what happened to your session, Al. I received a phone call from someone who follows the discussions on this website who was seeking advice on what to do with his session that was suffering an almost identical fate. He told me the session at his local became really popular, but the "wobbly" musicians began to overwhelm the strong players prompting them to stay home rather than subjecting themselves to it. Now the session is in danger of folding as a result.
I don't know if this tends to happen more outside of Ireland, (for reasons we've already discussed on this thread,) because I don't live there and I haven't watched the evolution of any session. Maybe some of our Irish participants can shed light on this. But it obviously does happen here in the US because Al has seen it, the fellow that rang me is seeing it, and I've seen it as well.
But I'm still curious if this is exclusive to Irish trad, or if other genres of music have any similar counterpart.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I'd have thought the first place to hunt for similarities would be America - I'd have thought Old Timey and Bluegrass would lend themselves to the informal / semi-formal pub setting that Irish music inhabits, and come up against similar issues. Not that I know, I've never been there.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Yea, nicholas... that seems like an obvious candidate, but I have no personal experience with it to know how similar it is or if the environment it happens in is similar to a pub. I have been to jazz and blues jams, but like I said, I've never seen beginners get up and join in on those occasions.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Nor have I been to jazz and blues jams - I assume you really have to be quite clever and au fait with the music to participate in those at all, even (or especially when) it sounds very spontaneous.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I've played a few different genres of music and have yet to encounter any musical situation that comes very close to an Irish session. Even though there were people involved who weren’t experts necessarily in most of the informal public musical happenings with the other genres, they still were beyond the squeaking and squawking phase of their learning. I’ve never been to a rock jam session, but I would imagine that might have easy access and not necessarily require as much skill to get involved with. But something like rock is mainstream enough so that your exposure to it wouldn’t be limited to jam sessions… so it still doesn’t work as a counterpart really.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
It has been of great benefit, and that includes "Riverdance" "The Pogues" et al. All publicit is good publicity. There is many a fine ITM musician inspired by those people, and Dublin4ers, Barney McKenna, Chieftains and all the rest. Snobs and eejits might like to sneer at all of those now, but they did inspire and for that we should be thankful.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I think the quality of Irish music sessions has little to do with the skills of the musicians involved. I actually saw quite a few newbies with decent repertoire and skills causing troubles in new sessions. It's more to do with how much they understand what the ITM session is, and how things operate.
True, this music has become popular, and the sessions would attract more "musicians" with poor understanding of the music, but I doubt real eejits will keep their interest in it for long.
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
All of this talk of "ettiquette" sounds like Regency dancing or something. Sessions have become the de facto format for ITM, which I think is a shame. I'd much rather hear the other musos one or maybe two at a time but that hardly ever happens; it's not interesting to the crowd I guess. What's the point of having musicians at sessions, anyway? Wouldn't it be simpler to have a bunch of wonks mime the music as a CD plays? You could hire the homeless for the job, serve society as a whole and all that. Or put up a DVD of Matt Molloy and crew on a plasma screen. No free pints wasted, you'd short out the TV!
Dunno if this answers Phantom Jack's question(s).
Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Something Steve Jones said on the, "Complete the Sentence...." thread inspired this query.
My understanding of the way musicians in Ireland develop is that it usually starts while people are in their youth mostly. They develop their skills long before they would turn up in pubs and could be heard playing in a public space such as that. On the other hand, around most of the rest of the world, people discover ITM and sessions as adults and might turn up awkwardly squeaking and screeching at a similar level that youngsters in Ireland would be doing in the privacy of their homes. The popularity of Irish sessions seems to compel some people to want to experience participating in it long before they’ve developed the skills to make it sound pleasing.
So how is this possibly effecting the overall impression people have in general about Irish music? Is what I described above having little or no effect, or is it giving ITM a negative association for the general public?
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Round these parts sessions aren't common enough to make a major difference to the perception of ITM (if it exists.)
On the other hand, your note makes me think of the horror that my daughter and her Irish dancing friends have of the thought that their parents might sign up for dance classes and - god forbid - enter the over 21 section of their competitions. A public display of over the hill adults attempting steps the kids learned eons ago as wee uns.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by grego
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
An interesting thesis, but it doesn't match my experience here in the States. The sheer speed and spontaneity of most sessions I've sat in on tends to limit newbie participation.
Around here, most people get up to speed on a small bag of tunes, which they then join in on at the local session. They gradually add tunes at home. The newbies don't play out on tunes they don't know, so the clinkers and squawks are at a minimum.
Also, it's not unusual here in the US to find people who started playing this music when they were kids (I include myself here, starting at 14 after a youth mispent on bluegrass and rock). Especially true around Philly, Boston, New York, and Chicago. But even in the hinterland there are kids learning the tunes who can hold their own at a power session by the time they're teens. So the quality of music tends to be quite high (for a bunch of friends and neighbors who have day jobs).
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
same here in Chicago grego
Folks here expect a performance. And the performance has been invaded by "trained professional musicians and vocalists" who constantly crab about trebles, rolls and slides because "they're not on the music!". No place for regular players.
And don't sit next to the piano player when she has the lid up on a grand. Can't hear anything else but her.
If you call them sessions, the only places I been able to play over the years for the purpose of playing-as opposed to performing in front of people who drink, talk and smoke too much and don't give a care about what you are playing- is among freinds.
The best part of sessions. That won't change.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
This would only worry you if you thought a session was a performance.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I was in East Clare when the kids were off from school and met quite a few at sessions. There were also a handful of adults from the area who, like myself, are not exactly advanced players. Many of these were students of the session leaders. They were invited to start sets of tunes or play solos (or play in small groups). It was done in a very supportive way. The quality of the playing was variable - mostly pretty good, but sometimes a little shaky. Some of the kids were not good at sticking to the tempo the leader set. (The two youngest, ages 10 and 12, were among the best, however.)
There's also a regular series of sessions for young players that get announced on the trad shows on Clare FM. I think they usually have well-known older musicians in to lead it.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Adult newbie here, and I'm sure I'm not unique among adult newbies in that:
- I know full well that with seven months of playing history, I'm not terribly good.
- I don't want to embarrass myself.
- The better I get, the more fun I have at sessions.
My session is open to everyone; as I've posted elsewhere, I started playing there less than three months after I first picked up the fiddle. I played very little my first time, and I only joined in on the tunes I was confident I could play at speed. Over the past few months, I've joined in on more, and sometimes I'll realize mid-tune that I'm in over my head, so I'll sit out for the rest. I don't yet have the skills, as you say, Phantom, to make my music "sound pleasing", and I don't want to ruin the session! If everyone at my session were at my level, *and* joined in on every tune, sure, we'd sound like crap. But fortunately, most of the participants are well above my level and we're good enough collectively that we've had punters tell us how much they enjoyed listening to us - which suggests that what we're doing isn't overtly detrimental to the tradition. (It's also been my experience that non-musicians aren't very good at discriminating among players of different abilities. I've had people who were half-listening to me play tell me that I was great, and then ask me, unironically, if I'd been playing fiddle since I was a kid. I'm not bragging here, as no musician would ask me that; it's obvious to anyone who knows anything that I'm a beginner.)
Newbies don't stay newbies forever. A sufficiently friendly, welcoming session should draw a regular crowd of musicians who improve over time. Part of what I like about my session is that it gives me a chance to see how I'm improving week by week, and that motivates me to come back. I suspect I'll still be motivated in this way a few years from now, when (hopefully) I'll actually have developed the skills to sound pleasing.
Phantom, your post makes it sound like sessions west of the Atlantic are populated almost entirely by people who can't play, which doesn't seem like it would be the norm. Who wants to participate in such an event?
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Seems odd too, to characterize Irish sessions as "popular." Most I've been to are on an "off" night for the pub--Sunday through Thursday, with Fridays and Saturdays reserved for more mainstream music.
That said, our session has been "popular" among local amateur acoustic musicians looking for tunes and good company. Some of them drifted over from the Old Timey jam, and the Tuesday open session welcomes them. My hunch is that they like the sound of Irish music, and the fact that everyone plays together--lots of cover, so mistakes are less obvious. But only a couple of these players have stuck it out and really started to learn the repertoire. Those that have are clearly practicing a lot at home, so they're rapidly fitting in and playing very well.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
TD&M, as I said, I was inspired by something Steve Jones said on the, "Complete the Sentence...." thread and it wasn't about any particular session, or the ones out here in general. I have seen a few sessions here and in other places where there is quite a bit of what I discribed above, and Steve's comments reminded me of them and prompted this thread. I remember on those occasions wondering what the people in the pub thought... if anything, and how it might effect their impression of ITM.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Okay. But in my purely anecdotal rambles the sessions I've heard have made high quality music, easily mistaken for a good professional "bar band" sound (i.e., tight, in tune, played with passion, even mistakeable for "rehearsed"). This in spite of the ephemeral nature of some sessions and the fact that in many, the sets were spontaneous, not pre-arranged.
In the States anyway, few pubs will agree to host a session if the overall musicianship sucks. So the sessions that last are the ones with at least a core of decent players who can keep the tunes going.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Will... what I mean by "popular" is that they are found worldwide. Many Irish pubs around the world feature sessions now. Many of these are in areas where you'll find mostly beginners among the ranks. These sessions might be the first exposure to ITM for a lot of people. I cringe when I think of how I might have contributed to this possible negative association back when my playing was made up of mostly squeaks and squawks. I only wish I had the benefit of starting at an age long before I became eligible to drink in pubs. And I wish I had the patience and good sense to wait until I could play halfway decent before I joined any session. Oh well...
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
"lots of cover, so mistakes are less obvious."
Oh, that stung!
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by grego
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Speaking of my experience in sessions in England, ITM sessions have been welcome in many a pub, often in a back room or in a corner of a long one. I am grateful that this is so, because sitting in an in-turned huddle and playing for ourselves - which is what those of us who are not "performing" types are actually doing - could be seen as quite unsocial. Plenty of people like the music going on in the back, and the odd pint gets sent over. Our drink intake is also likely to please the landlord.
Decades back, I remember sessions being jeopardised by (young) blind drunk sessioneers refusing to pack in at closing time, or whatever; and the times of the Troubles could make people edgy about anything Irish. But basically, the English pub scene has given us a lot of tolerance and leeway. That's been my experience, anyway.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Our weekly session is held in an avowedly 'Oirish' pub here on Monday nights, so the place is fairly empty until later in the evening. Sometimes there is applause from the otherwise indifferent punters, mostly not. The acoustics are appalling, so once there are more than a dozen people in the place it gets very difficult to hear each other play, or for the punters to hear us, as the place is a bit of an echo chamber. The only complaint I've ever heard of was after the one time we decided to tack on a learner's session before the regular session. Too many beginning pipers going at once can be traumatic for anyone - an abortive experiment that was quickly terminated in favor of a separate learner's session.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by malanstevenson
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I don't really understand the question, but it seems to me that a lot of kids in Ireland do start quite young. But they also play in pub sessions from a very young age.
My experience of Irish sessions is mainly in the West, particularly up in Sligo. And most of that experience is, admittedly, quite some time ago. But the last time I was up there, about 3 years ago, it was still the same family atmosphere in the pub sessions, with kids as young as 5 or 6 joining in. I didn't hear many - sorry, that should read ANY - squeaks and squawks, either.
One session down in Clonmel the other year, that went late on into the night, there was this group of giggling 8- or 9-year old girls. Then, from time to time, there'd be one of those unspoken, invisible signals and the pub would fall silent. And this young girl played whistle. And I swear, it was just breathtaking.
I suppose part of what I'm saying is, in some parts at least, the kids DO actually grow up with sessions, in pubs and elsewhere, right from the start. Mind you, unlike you and me, they never go through a sqeaky, squawky stage.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Ben writes: "I didn't hear many - sorry, that should read ANY - squeaks and squawks, either."
That's what I'm talking about; they get a very early start there. The ones that might show up at the pub and play might already prove to be exceptional. When I talk to people from Ireland about this they give me the impression that if you haven't learned to play by secondary school you might as well give up on the idea. The only Irish people I know that took up the music as an adult did so after coming here and seeing Americans learning as adults and decided to give it a go. You aren't likely to find many Irish adults awkwardly squeaking and squawking at the local pub in Ireland though.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
There are far more young, really good players in England now than 30 - 40 years ago. This is because a good many are offspring of the first lot of Revival "folkies", and did start playing as kids. They pick up styles and tunes and influences from all over the place including various parts of Europe as well as Scotland and Ireland and the bits that interest them of North America. Many come to Folkworks weeks and attend the Newcastle degree course in NE England. They have a mastery most of us who started later will never have. And yet...there can be a samey "Folkworks sound" to their music. Mind, they're still young. It's good to hear them.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I met a woman from the Feakle/Scarriff area, I'm guessing 30-something, maybe late 20s, who is getting back to the fiddle after having started young and having given it up for a long time. Her intonation was a little wobbly, and she didn't know all that many of the tunes, but she was welcomed at the four sessions where I saw her.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Yeah, PB, but in the places I know (apart from Dublin, where I will be in about 3 weeks time - fancy a pint, Mairtin?, or are you down West then?), I get the feeling that a lot of the kids who are in the sessions are actually not that special - well, at least, they don't think so. But my point was that they do go out and play in public spaces from a very early age - I don't think they sit at home and work it out first. Well, I suppose they must do so a bit, 'cos we all do, don't we?
Back to the question, though, and I feel I might understand it a bit better now, I don't think it matters what reputation ITM has. As long as people try and play it as well as they can, and there will always be good sessions and less good sessions, and really great ones that we'll carry on experiencing every now and then, somewhere, somewhen.
In other words, the sqeakers and sqawkers might put some people off, but so what? There'll always be a great session just around the corner ... next week ...
Put it yet another way, I don't care what most of the world thinks of ITM, as long as there's enough decent players around so I can have a great session now and then and have my fun.
(I'm wondering if I might be saying something similar to what KML was thinking in his earlier post.)
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
...btw sorry to 'cut and run' but must away to my bed ...
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Gary, my query isn't about whether wobbly players should be unwelcome at sessions; but rather about the scenario laid out in the "Complete this sentence" thread. In Feakle yer one is surrounded by top-notch players no doubt and would blend into the overall sound pretty well I would imagine. But if the session was somewhere outside of Ireland where most of the players were wobbly and could be heard very well -- what impression would that leave on people in the pub who are hearing ITM for the first time?
(I'm really hoping I don't have to re-state the question too many times here)
I would like to add that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with beginners at sessions or that I have a strong opinion about this... I'm just wondering what you guys think.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I think Danny hit it on the head. If it's a session for your own fun, who cares what the masses think?
I can imagine some people walk into our pub with no prior experience of Irish music. Some have no doubt heard Riverdance, or the Clancy Brothers, or the soundtrack to Lord of the Rings. Some respond just to the diddly nature of the music--pleasant drunks will break ingto a faux jig. But most probably see it in the general context of live music, notice that it's acoustic (no sound system, at least at most sessions), with too few songs for most modern tastes, like nothing they've got on their ipods, with half the musicians sitting with their backs turned to anyone whom might be listening, and they go on about their business.
We get a fair number of folks who have heard the music before--from the local step dancing schools, or when a 'name' band comes to town, or from casual listening to cds. These people tend to respond more actively to our music, almost always favorably. I've never heard anyone begrudge the newbies or less experienced players.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I've never seen a session that was all wobbly players.
And sometimes it takes only one strong player to pull everyone else into shape.
Distance from Ireland, or even connectedness to it, doesn't have much of anything to do with how good (or not) a session may be. The tradition, healthy and community-centered, is what it is, wherever it sprouts. It's not about creating mini Peppers experiences in other places. It's about celebrating the music wherever you find it.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Um, I hope we don't have to restate the obvious too often: "the music" can't be hurt by bad players, only the overall absence of talented, passionate players.
My guess is that we have plenty of the latter at this point in time, and younguns with promise picking up the music.
Maybe what's more to the point here is the role the music plays in human society. It still can be a focal point of neighbors gathering for fun and company. But it's no doubt changed from what it once was in many of the small towns of Ireland. In some places, it's become a commodity, a tourist attraction, an excuse for drinking.
Most of the sessions I've been to happen out of love for the music, enjoyment of the craic, and camaraderie. I don't think they're doing any harm to the music.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
My solution in such a case would be to find a back room of a pub and / or ask permission to use it on a slack night of the week. That way you're least likely to annoy patrons, and with any luck the playing will gradually become better, tighter - and more presentable, should you be asked to, or wish to, perform.
Indifferent Irish music in a pub is generally tolerated if it's a sensible distance from the punters (at any rate at first) - I think it's as simple as that. ITM is still a novelty in England generally: an English short-list of Irish musicians is more likely to run to U2, Thin Lizzy, Enya and The Pogues, in that or any order. Often a punter has expressed great pleasure in coming across live music in a pub as opposed to canned or jukebox. Naturally most English people haven't seen and heard a top-notch ITM player at close quarters, so haven't that standard by which to judge our efforts.
And the impression made by indifferent ITM on punters? They generally keep their thoughts to themselves, so I can't speak for most of them.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
The above is meant to be a reply to Phantom Button's last one.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Will writes: "I've never seen a session that was all wobbly players."
That confirms that this isn't about your session. We aren't talking about my regular session either. It sounds like the session described on the ‘sentence’ thread might qualify, but I'm not sure. I have come across sessions where wobbly playing is predominant though.
Occasionally someone will come in who still needs to put time into practicing, but they get their instrument out regardless and some hideous sounds come out. On those occasions I have noticed some interesting looks from people nearby, but I have no idea what kind of impression this leaves since it's so rare.
Also, this thread isn't questioning why we play, whether beginners should or shouldn't be welcomed etc. etc., it's just about what impression some of the shakier sessions might be having on people who aren’t familiar with ITM. Are their any other genres that have a phenomenon like sessions where novice and beginner players are heard out in public places like pubs?
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
"Are their any other genres that have a phenomenon like sessions where novice and beginner players are heard out in public places like pubs?"
Yes, you see it at bluegrass festivals and folk festivals all the time---the amateurs jamming out in the parking lot. Usually it's pretty obvious that they are the amateurs, and if you want the music at its best you have to mosey on over to the stage where the professionals are.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I've also been to friends' houses where many of the guests have brought an instrument with them, and someone sings a song. I've gone camping and sung along with friends with guitars and banjos. I've hung out in parks and watched people with instruments play at varying levels of expertise. It's pretty easy to distinguish the amateur efforts from the advanced level of play and to appreciate the fact that ordinary people are willing to try to make music even though they're not fantastic at it. It's kind of nice, actually. Reminds us that music is for everyone, and not just something to be bought and consumed like everything else in our lives.
Oh boy I'll get off my soap box now. Sorry.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
i have to say that i don't give two you-know-whats about what kind of impression the american "general public" at least, gets about itm through sessions. to this group, itm had its moment (a decade or two at most) as a flavor of the month in the world music arena, and the "general public" has moved on. the celtic/irish section at the amoeba records in my city has almost no pure drop recordings, a few "greatest hits" bands such as teada and solas, and a TON of new agey celtic crap and enya. the better session in my area takes place at an irish pub [with very fair and generous owners, btw] where after 45 minutes or so, the "hooters"-like din is such that you can't hear the player on either side of you. that pub was hosting a session on sundays plus another on tuesday nights, for years. the tuesday one was just cancelled due to lack of interest among the "general public," which would rather have the huge sports screens or hooters type music going.
i believe that at the current time, to the degree that any member of the "gp" has the potential to appreciate the music, those few folks won't be seeing the light in bars, regardless of the quality of the players.
my concern is rather, can playing in sessions be detrimental to a developing musician? but we already did that thread, i think....
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
"my concern is rather, can playing in sessions be detrimental to a developing musician? but we already did that thread, i think...."
Huh? At least, let's qualify it. Beginners (developing mucisians) should play in a slow sessions, no? If general session ettiquette is adhered to, a newbie shouldn't be squawking as they shouldn't be practicing at a 'good' session, right? When there are no more ITM sessions, we can ask if that's beneficial to the music and "what happened?". I can't see how popularity would be bad for preserving anything you want preserved.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by ballyfingers
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Kennedy, playing in the parking lot at a festival is different than what I was asking about. The people that go to bluegrass festivals are already familiar with the music and will understand what's going on in the parking lot. What I'm wondering is… are there other genres where the music is played in a public place (like a pub) where people might normally expect to find musicians who've already honed their craft, but instead find a group of people who seem to have only recently started learning? I've gone to jazz jams and watched people ‘sit in’, but they're all fairly proficient already. It’s the same with other similar genres, but the Irish session is the only one that I've seen where people sit down to play who might be in the process of learning from the beginning. Sometimes the group might consist of mostly beginners such as these. Again, I’m not criticizing this or suggesting it shouldn’t be; I’m just wondering if any other genres have similar circumstances in public places like the local pub.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Jack, let me clarify to you that by saying "I've never seen a session that was all wobbly players," I'm NOT talking about just my current local session (so please stop fixating on that red herring and suggesting that that's what I'm doing).
I've been in sessions on the East Coast, West Coast, Canada, and many points in between. None of them was ever all or even predominantly wobbly players.
And for the life of me, I don't understand why you'd post a question here of all places aimed at sussing out what people think who "arent't familiar with ITM." I doubt anyone here is qualified to answer that, since we're all almost by definition "famliar with ITM." You need a Gallup poll of the general public of Fiji, not a sampling of session.orger's views.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
(Scratching head) Jack, you've been to some strange sessions--rank beginners sitting in? Really?
In thirty years, I've never experienced that, any where.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Well... I've seen a couple, and I've heard about a couple, and people on this message board have talked about beginners joining sessions. I'd say it's not so unusual based on comments I've read on this website, someone that experienced another musician squeaking and squawking at a session started the thread that inspired this one.
As far as your ‘red herring’ is concerned… I was just making sure there was no misunderstanding that we weren’t talking about either of our sessions. As you know, we’ve had problems on that point in the past.
And if it’s your opinion that my question doesn’t belong on this website… don’t answer it.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
We've had problems with the red herring of talking about one specific session only because you misread what I've written.
And no, it's NOT my opinion that your question doesn't belong here. All I said was I can't understand why you'd ask this particular pool of people, since we're all familiar with "ITM." Seems to me you'd get a more useful answer from people who aren't familiar with ITM, since it's their views you're interested in.
Just because a lone wobbly beginner shows up at a session now and then doesn't mean they "predominate" or that it's the norm for this genre, or that it never happens in Ireland,. Seems to me you're over-reaching to extrapolate all that from the few bitch and moan comments on this web site.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Well... for example: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12185
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
In fact, you've said so yourself in previous threads--citing an example of behavior you don't like, but then acknowledging that it's not the norm (just disruptive when it does happen). For every complaint about session wreckers, someone's pointed out that this web format favors the occasional gripe session, but that doesn't mean it's a fair representation of reality. And you've been one of the more vocal proponents of this view.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Beebs' thread is a good case in point. Some people *are* indeed put off and offended if anyone dares to noodle or learn a tune on the fly or sit in for a few tunes even though they're not session veterans yet. To me this says less about how "wobbly" the offending musician might be, and more about the person who would demand such puckered tight standards at something as fun and informal as a session.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Will, it doesn't seem like you understand the question I'm asking. The reason I pointed to that thread is because they were talking about players who are basically beginners and haven't honed their skills but will sit down and play regardless. Some sessions are even established to cater to this level of playing specifically, but they often happen in pubs. I'm wondering if any other genre has anything similar, or if this is unique to Irish trad.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
2 points:
At the risk of repeating myself, PB, I don't think any of us should worry one little bit about what the public, or indeed, anyone, thinks about ITM as a result of poor standards in some sessions. It doesn't matter. It would only matter if things got so bad that no pubs would let us in, or if the general standard of musicianship deteriorated enough to spoil our fun, and neither of those seems to be happening. In fact, in the UK, pubs are often extremely keen to get us in.
Second point: "Beginners (developing mucisians) should play in a slow sessions, no?" No, no NO. Sessions are for people. Beginners should go to sessions and observe the etiquette, and do what someone else described here somewhere (can't remember where) and play the one or two tunes they can play and gradually pick things up. Only way to do it, really, notwithstanding any previous posts I may have made on the 'Are Beginners Sessions a Good Idea?' or whatever it was called thread last year. (Anyway, even if they do go to 'Beginners' sessions, they should still come to a 'session')
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I agree, Ben, but are there other genres where this happens? And "slow sessions" do exist, do you think they're having a negative impact on the music?
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Jack, there are several old-timey sessions where I live, but I haven't been to them yet so I can't say what the standard is.
Of the Irish sessions I've been to here, there is one slow session where beginners predominate, but it's so obviously a learning session that no casual onlooker is going to mistake it for anything else.
For the life of me, I can't understand why you worry so much about what non-musicians think about session music. The sessions carry on regardless, there are enough pub owners who want it, so why does it matter what the public thinks?
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Over here, there are 'English' sessions in the pubs. Judging from the racket, I assume they're all beginners who go to them. (But I wouldn't expect them to worry about what I think.) There used to be jazz 'sessions' in some pubs too, and I've sat in on a few, but that was 30 years ago or more - I'm not aware of them happening any more.
'Slow sessions' - negative impact? No. The music is the music. I suppose it might be possible, as I alluded to above, for publicans to think that sqeaks and sqawks was the norm in an Irish music session, and therefore not to allow them in, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of that happening, so I'm not worried.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Sorry, Kennedy, I care about what everybody thinks. There seems to be a trend to be exclusive in some of these threads and to dismiss the non-musicians as irrelevant. In our local pub I often arrive early and stay after to laugh, drink and visit with friends who aren't musicians. Why do some of you feel the need to write off the presence of non-musicians who are in fact sharing the same space you're having your sessions in? I guess you shouldn’t complain when they laugh and talk loud, crowd you out or start singing rebel songs while you’re having your sessions. Why should they give a flying fart for us if we couldn’t care less about them?
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Good Lord, here we go again. You don't need to worry about what the public thinks because we all already know what they think. Some know a lot about the music, some don't. Some like it a lot, some not so much. Most of them are drunk when they're listening to it.
I think your best strategy is to dress up as a girl and hang out in the women's bathrooms for a few evenings. Then you'll really get to hear the punters' point of view. Most of the conversations I hear are related to men and have nothing to do with music. Then there are the conversations about men from Ireland. Then they might start talking about how they were in Ireland once and dated this cute soccer player in Dublin, and how they love the music in the pub because it reminds them of the guy in Dublin. And then another might start talking about some cute guitar player she met in Dublin once.
You'd be surprised at the comments you hear while you're putting on your lipstick. Get yourself a good disguise, Jack. It'll open up a new world for you.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Kennedy, your insights from the ladies jax is very interesting and all, but I'm not about to put a dress on and apply lipstick in there any time soon... as much as I might enjoy the perspective, I think my beard would give me away and I'd really only end up finding out what the lads in jail think about... uh... jail. And I don't want to spend a night in jail with a dress on either come to think of it. It's a bad idea all together if you ask me.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Personally, as long as there is a variety of tempii and the tunes are not wall-to-wall fast reels, I think ITM sessions are beneficial as the punters do enjoy ITM over Scottish or trad English.
I do find some English session musicians are anti-IMT though.
Which is worse? -
scratching and scraping of beginners
40 verse laments
wild rover
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
40 verse laments
....or any 40 verse song for that matter
....or any 10 verse song for that matter
....or any .........(I'll stop there!
)
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by domnull
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
What's unique about traditional Irish music is, I believe, that there's no clear boundary to separate the "performers" and the "audience." Anyone can be a player, a dancer, a singer, or a listener as long as everyone else can have a good time too. But I feel musicians are at the centre, and so it's their privilege to play just for themselves first. If they make good music and enjoy themselves, listeners will come along and warm up the session.
This music is rather popular in Japan too, but thankfully there's nothing detrimental to it. I've attended many Irish music sessions in Ireland, UK, and Japan, but I find no significant difference in the musicians' skills and their understanding of the music in these three countries.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by slainte
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Most sessions move at a pretty good clip. But my favorite session is unfortunately not a healthy one at this point. The publican, concerned that too many musicians were drinking him out of house and home, spent the last few years squeezing down the number of musicians that were allowed to play at any given time. This led to a lot of good local musicians opting not to show up. And so there have been evenings where there has only been one or two strong players, at which point, it becomes more work than fun to keep the music going. There has also been a decline in the attendance in the pub on that evening, which I think is directly related to the quality of the music, and gets to PB's point that the strength of the music can have an impact on its enjoyment by others. I am hoping that the publican puts two and two together, and starts taking a more accomodating view to the musicians who show up willing to play. It's a tough nut to craic, but I have hopes we can start things moving in a positive direction again.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
My impression of the American public is that by and large they are in total awe of anyone who has the nerve to perform in public, no matter how poorly. It's a smallish minority who listen critically.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I have noticed that myself Gary, I think that is how, despite my meager talents, I occasionally get paid to play music!!!!!
Seriously, there is a disturbing trend in America of people treating music as if playing it is something reserved for an elite few. I am willing to accept a few wobbly notes if it means more people are participating, and finding the joy of playing music, not just consuming it like it was some sort of commodity. That is why I don't mind the occasional "Whiskey in the Jar" or "Wild Rover," where everyone in the pub joins in on the chorus. It just opens the circle wider and includes more folks in the fun. Now, that doesn't mean I advocate anarchy, but there are many ways to promote inclusiveness without watering down the quality of the music.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Well Jack, you've changed your question every time you've reiterated it. I was responding to how you titled this thread. Several of us have given reasoned, articulate answers that do in fact respond to that question. Perhaps the problem here is that you don't want to hear what we have to say?
I for one would never say that non musicians at a session are irrelevant. In fact, I don't recall anyone actually meaning that here on the yella board. Some of us have suggested that their opinions about our playing music aren't relevant to why we play, but that's a very different sentiment. Either you don't understand the difference, or you're willfully misrepresenting mine and other's point of view on this. By doing so, you insulate yourself against the possibility of ever learning anything from the people here whose views are different than yours. So why ask for our opinions if you'll listen only to those who agree with you?
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Slainte wrote:
"What's unique about traditional Irish music is, I believe, that there's no clear boundary to separate the "performers" and the "audience." Anyone can be a player, a dancer, a singer, or a listener as long as everyone else can have a good time too. But I feel musicians are at the centre, and so it's their privilege to play just for themselves first. If they make good music and enjoy themselves, listeners will come along and warm up the session."
Spot on and as well said as anything I've ever seen on this topic.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
There's another missed point which is that session playing is simply a pleasent way to spend an evening enjoying the company of other people doing what you enjoy. I think the fact that ITM is a dance music is often ignored - the dancers are more important that the musicians. Sessions aren't very productive for learning anything other than repetoir (and given in Northumbria the shepherd-musicians would thing nothing of playing a celidh repeating a small number of tunes all evening) thats not the most important thing. So in this sense, yes, sessions are detrimental.
Re: "a samey folkworks/folk degree sound" - in my experience that doesn't stack up, certainly the participants are never encouraged to uniformify their musics. If there's a similarity it might just be skilled players who can be a bit exuberant with tempo occasionally.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Will, you seem bent on being confrontational with me and I refuse to get in another argument with you -- so I'm ignoring your comments unless you're willing to address my query without getting so personal. Thanks to the others who ARE addressing the question I raised in this thread.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
LOL, nanner nanner boo boo to you to, Jack.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
To continue with the conversation between Al and Gary... that's interesting what happened to your session, Al. I received a phone call from someone who follows the discussions on this website who was seeking advice on what to do with his session that was suffering an almost identical fate. He told me the session at his local became really popular, but the "wobbly" musicians began to overwhelm the strong players prompting them to stay home rather than subjecting themselves to it. Now the session is in danger of folding as a result.
I don't know if this tends to happen more outside of Ireland, (for reasons we've already discussed on this thread,) because I don't live there and I haven't watched the evolution of any session. Maybe some of our Irish participants can shed light on this. But it obviously does happen here in the US because Al has seen it, the fellow that rang me is seeing it, and I've seen it as well.
But I'm still curious if this is exclusive to Irish trad, or if other genres of music have any similar counterpart.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I'd have thought the first place to hunt for similarities would be America - I'd have thought Old Timey and Bluegrass would lend themselves to the informal / semi-formal pub setting that Irish music inhabits, and come up against similar issues. Not that I know, I've never been there.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Yea, nicholas... that seems like an obvious candidate, but I have no personal experience with it to know how similar it is or if the environment it happens in is similar to a pub. I have been to jazz and blues jams, but like I said, I've never seen beginners get up and join in on those occasions.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
Nor have I been to jazz and blues jams - I assume you really have to be quite clever and au fait with the music to participate in those at all, even (or especially when) it sounds very spontaneous.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I've played a few different genres of music and have yet to encounter any musical situation that comes very close to an Irish session. Even though there were people involved who weren’t experts necessarily in most of the informal public musical happenings with the other genres, they still were beyond the squeaking and squawking phase of their learning. I’ve never been to a rock jam session, but I would imagine that might have easy access and not necessarily require as much skill to get involved with. But something like rock is mainstream enough so that your exposure to it wouldn’t be limited to jam sessions… so it still doesn’t work as a counterpart really.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
It has been of great benefit, and that includes "Riverdance" "The Pogues" et al. All publicit is good publicity. There is many a fine ITM musician inspired by those people, and Dublin4ers, Barney McKenna, Chieftains and all the rest. Snobs and eejits might like to sneer at all of those now, but they did inspire and for that we should be thankful.
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
I think the quality of Irish music sessions has little to do with the skills of the musicians involved. I actually saw quite a few newbies with decent repertoire and skills causing troubles in new sessions. It's more to do with how much they understand what the ITM session is, and how things operate.
True, this music has become popular, and the sessions would attract more "musicians" with poor understanding of the music, but I doubt real eejits will keep their interest in it for long.
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by slainte
Re: Is the popularity of ITM sessions detrimental or beneficial to the music?
All of this talk of "ettiquette" sounds like Regency dancing or something. Sessions have become the de facto format for ITM, which I think is a shame. I'd much rather hear the other musos one or maybe two at a time but that hardly ever happens; it's not interesting to the crowd I guess. What's the point of having musicians at sessions, anyway? Wouldn't it be simpler to have a bunch of wonks mime the music as a CD plays? You could hire the homeless for the job, serve society as a whole and all that. Or put up a DVD of Matt Molloy and crew on a plasma screen. No free pints wasted, you'd short out the TV!
Dunno if this answers Phantom Jack's question(s).
# Posted on January 25th 2007 by Kevin Rietmann