I recently learned that there are public sessions in which the musicians who attend pay the session leader. -as opposed to the session leader being paid by the publican. If you do pay, what are the circumstances?
Thanks.
Good grief - I've never heard of the likes. If I were to attend a session where there was a "session leader", I might buy him or her a drink - but I'd normally expect the favour to be returned - unless last orders had passed.
Well, unless the leader the "steets ahead" of everyone else there, it seems a bit of cheek to me. I'd rather go to a session where everyone plays for free, under such circumstances.
Of course, if it's set up as "tune learning" or "beginners' session", that's a bit different.
Of course, each musician could take it turns to receive the money.
There is a Shetland Fiddlers session which I occasionally attend in Edinburgh. This doesn't have a leader as such, although a couple of the longer term attenders deal with the management, encourage newcomers, and perform admin duties relating to their website etc. Here, everyone contributes £1 which goes towards the cost of hiring the room. Nobody gets paid.
The only thing I have ever heard of that is even remotely like this are the festival weeks, like in East Durham, NY, where folks pay big bucks to spend a week in group lessons and sessions with some of the big names in Irish music. This then allows them to come back to their local session and drop names: "Oh, I learned this from so and so, what a delightful player he is, and a heck of a guy."
But that is a different animal than what beanatiarlar is describing.
Here in the US I've heard about some similar things. The fee usually goes to cover the cost of the venue and PA (if there even is one), or it goes to cover admin costs (website, promo, etc.) And it's usually a small amount, $5 or less.
I would not be surprised to pay a small fee to attend a session in a place other than a pub -- community centers, meeting halls, etc. These places cost money to rent. But I would be surprised and most likely non-compliant if somebody wanted me to pay to play in a pub session. At the sessions I have been to, the musicians already pay for their own drinks and don't get anything back for the extra patrons they might attract, so it seems to me it would be excessive to charge them to play.
I went to a session in Oakland, CA in December, and ate and drank for free. Woohoo!
Like the rest of ye's I find this bizarre and never heard the likes. Goes against the kind of "anarchist" ideals on which most sessions are run.
Where are you based, bean? So we know not to g...sorry, so we get an idea what this is all about.
"Goes against the kind of "anarchist" ideals on which most sessions are run."
Most sessions? I doubt that. Here in Beantown most sessions have structure and many are closed. The few anarchistic sessions are helpful to begginers but the music is ah well....
can you imagine a sesh covering 2 zip codes?
Am I bovvered?
Inasmuch as they don't have the structure of folk clubs (see the other thread.) Where's Beantown? Near Spaghetti Junction?
I don't know if I'd want to be at an over-structured session...and closed ones get a bit predictable....oh, what's the time? Quarter to ten. Right. Time for the Tarbolton set.
theres a session in rhinebeck ny where the cost is $8. they usually hire someone to play before the session though- so i guess it goes toward paying them.
beantown is way up north, you know where they threw all that tea in the bay. spaghetti junction is a few miles down the road and you guys are welcome to it if you can move it. PLEASE!!
I have no idea what a folk club is, dumb yank I am. We let people sing, dance, roll on the floor at session long as they dont make a fuss and run off paying marks. only rule is no amps. The place we frequent offers free beverages within reason and sometimes a snack too. Paying people come in to watch, the make $$ . None of us gets any money. I have been to sessions where a tip jar is put out but I think that is tacky. I have to admit the group is mostly by invite but we never turn anyone out who wants to play.
Suffice to say I would not try this approach in Belfast. I can just imagine some of the musicians I know being asked for money to play.
I can understand paying to rent a hall, or cover costs, but surely not in a pub. I thought the idea of traditional musicians being a soft touch for landlords, throw them a few pints, had long gone.
As for another musician saying "I am the session leader, pay me" well it is laughable.
sounds like the local amateur choir and orchestra (not related). Both require applications and auditions and charge a fee to each participant to be there. You wont find me there, I see it as a premise to exclude people who love music based on their ability.
Hey Bliss - do they still pass round The Gold Box? (Nudge nudge - know what I mean.) I remember some pubs in the Gorbals and also in Kilburn High Road used to do that (or be coerced into letting it happen.). I was never quite sure what to do when it got passed to me so I would relent and put some change in. Anything to avoid a kneecapping. So now I admit I have funded terrorism...or is it freedom fighters?
We had a CCE session in Seattle years ago and we passed the hat to pay for the rental of the room where we played plus to collect money for the CCE dues. There was no "charge" to play - all by donation. I can't imagine a session where a condition of playing is paying.
Here in the USA, ASCAP sometimes demands money from bars that sponsor sessions. The theory is that the musicians play arrangments from copyrighted recordings, even if the tunes are in the public domain. But I have never heard of paying a session leader!!
At folk festivals session leaders are often paid. This is to ensure that, if you have advertised a session in a certain pub, people looking into the pub will see somebody there and join them. Otherwise, as most people are too sheepish to start a "session" on their own (if their is such a thing) the tendency is to walk away and the session never gets off the ground.
So at our local festival we normally pay a couple of guys/gals 50 quid each to spend all day in the pub. I know. It is a job very few of us would like to have. Our sympathies can only go out to those guys/gals.
Performers at festivals often lead a session as part of their contract obligations, so I suppose it counts as being paid, but this is to ensure that an all-inclusive session happens at a particular time, and that all everyone who wants to lead a tune gets a chance, and to keep things going if everyone gets an attack of modesty at the same time. At a festival session where most of the sessioners don't know each other, things can need a bit of a shove occasionally. It doesn't usually go down very well if the booked artist(s) highjack the session as a performance opportunity!
A couple of times I've been booked by a festival to lead a session - free ticket for being in a session I would have been at anyway! But it wasn't an all day commitment, just a couple of hours a day and the rest of the time I went to the informal sessions.
We put out a tip pitcher in the center of our circle so we can all throw in a couple of bucks for the waitress ... if someone decides our playing is good enough to toss in some $$$ we give that over to the waitress/house, as well.
We don't put the tip pitcher "between" our circle and the other patrons of the establishment.
My question arose after I learned of a monthly session being started by a local musician. It will be a slow session for the first 1.5 hours, followed by a faster session for the same length of time. There ae no other pub sessions in this area, I'd need to drive 3 hours to find one. the pub in question is mostly closed at this time of year, but opens for special events and is willing to open for this. The owner has a hard time heating the place, much less sponsoring a fledgling session with it's inherent uncertainties. He will provide pizza, gratis. (In part because pubs must serve food on Sunday or they can't be open.)
The leader is a professional musician who is mostly out of work at this ime of year. He's taken on the responsibility of advertising it. He's asking a small fee, $5, from those who participate. And no, it's not me.
I had an instant revulsion, like many of you, at the thought of paying to play in a public venue. I'm still thinking that *someone* should be taking a chance on this financially, but I think it should be someone who stands to gain financially on this in the end. It's an odd situation, and since there are no other pub sessions in the area, the owner is really not tuned in to the tradition. He's a great guy and I'd like to see the thing work for him, the leader, and the rest of us players. The trad world is so small, I'm not giving any specifics that might stain reputations, sorry.
Pay to Play?
Pay to Play?
Do you pay to play at your local session?
I recently learned that there are public sessions in which the musicians who attend pay the session leader. -as opposed to the session leader being paid by the publican. If you do pay, what are the circumstances?
Thanks.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by beanatiarlar
Re: Pay to Play?
Good grief - I've never heard of the likes. If I were to attend a session where there was a "session leader", I might buy him or her a drink - but I'd normally expect the favour to be returned - unless last orders had passed.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by On Sabbatical
Re: Pay to Play?
Well, unless the leader the "steets ahead" of everyone else there, it seems a bit of cheek to me. I'd rather go to a session where everyone plays for free, under such circumstances.
Of course, if it's set up as "tune learning" or "beginners' session", that's a bit different.
Of course, each musician could take it turns to receive the money.
There is a Shetland Fiddlers session which I occasionally attend in Edinburgh. This doesn't have a leader as such, although a couple of the longer term attenders deal with the management, encourage newcomers, and perform admin duties relating to their website etc. Here, everyone contributes £1 which goes towards the cost of hiring the room. Nobody gets paid.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: Pay to Play?
This has got to be a wind up. Such things don't even happen in N.Ireland, the home of double dealing.
Is it some sort of protection racket?
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Pay to Play?
unless the leader WAS "steets ahead" ...
I meant to say, sorry.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: Pay to Play?
"Is it some sort of protection racket?"
"Give us a tenner or I'll set the bodhran player loose!"
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: Pay to Play?
Sorry, not a wind up. Just wondering under what circumstances musicians are paying to play along.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by beanatiarlar
Re: Pay to Play?
The only thing I have ever heard of that is even remotely like this are the festival weeks, like in East Durham, NY, where folks pay big bucks to spend a week in group lessons and sessions with some of the big names in Irish music. This then allows them to come back to their local session and drop names: "Oh, I learned this from so and so, what a delightful player he is, and a heck of a guy."
But that is a different animal than what beanatiarlar is describing.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Pay to Play?
Here in the US I've heard about some similar things. The fee usually goes to cover the cost of the venue and PA (if there even is one), or it goes to cover admin costs (website, promo, etc.) And it's usually a small amount, $5 or less.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Snakefingers
Re: Pay to Play?
I would not be surprised to pay a small fee to attend a session in a place other than a pub -- community centers, meeting halls, etc. These places cost money to rent. But I would be surprised and most likely non-compliant if somebody wanted me to pay to play in a pub session. At the sessions I have been to, the musicians already pay for their own drinks and don't get anything back for the extra patrons they might attract, so it seems to me it would be excessive to charge them to play.
I went to a session in Oakland, CA in December, and ate and drank for free. Woohoo!
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by timmy!
Re: Pay to Play?
Like the rest of ye's I find this bizarre and never heard the likes. Goes against the kind of "anarchist" ideals on which most sessions are run.
Where are you based, bean? So we know not to g...sorry, so we get an idea what this is all about.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Pay to Play?
Key Maniac Lad says:
"Goes against the kind of "anarchist" ideals on which most sessions are run."
Most sessions? I doubt that. Here in Beantown most sessions have structure and many are closed. The few anarchistic sessions are helpful to begginers but the music is ah well....
can you imagine a sesh covering 2 zip codes?
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by saltcast
Re: Pay to Play?
Am I bovvered?
Inasmuch as they don't have the structure of folk clubs (see the other thread.) Where's Beantown? Near Spaghetti Junction?
I don't know if I'd want to be at an over-structured session...and closed ones get a bit predictable....oh, what's the time? Quarter to ten. Right. Time for the Tarbolton set.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Pay to Play?
theres a session in rhinebeck ny where the cost is $8. they usually hire someone to play before the session though- so i guess it goes toward paying them.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Pay to Play?
beantown is way up north, you know where they threw all that tea in the bay. spaghetti junction is a few miles down the road and you guys are welcome to it if you can move it. PLEASE!!
I have no idea what a folk club is, dumb yank I am. We let people sing, dance, roll on the floor at session long as they dont make a fuss and run off paying marks. only rule is no amps. The place we frequent offers free beverages within reason and sometimes a snack too. Paying people come in to watch, the make $$ . None of us gets any money. I have been to sessions where a tip jar is put out but I think that is tacky. I have to admit the group is mostly by invite but we never turn anyone out who wants to play.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by mother
Re: Pay to Play?
Suffice to say I would not try this approach in Belfast. I can just imagine some of the musicians I know being asked for money to play.
I can understand paying to rent a hall, or cover costs, but surely not in a pub. I thought the idea of traditional musicians being a soft touch for landlords, throw them a few pints, had long gone.
As for another musician saying "I am the session leader, pay me" well it is laughable.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Pay to Play?
sounds like the local amateur choir and orchestra (not related). Both require applications and auditions and charge a fee to each participant to be there. You wont find me there, I see it as a premise to exclude people who love music based on their ability.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by Joze
Re: Pay to Play?
Hey Bliss - do they still pass round The Gold Box? (Nudge nudge - know what I mean.) I remember some pubs in the Gorbals and also in Kilburn High Road used to do that (or be coerced into letting it happen.). I was never quite sure what to do when it got passed to me so I would relent and put some change in. Anything to avoid a kneecapping. So now I admit I have funded terrorism...or is it freedom fighters?
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Pay to Play?
That practice has all but disappeared, as the money was allegedly to support prisoners families. There are no prisoners now.
I still can't believe this thread, no disrespect meant to Beanatiarlar.
Where do you live?
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Pay to Play?
We had a CCE session in Seattle years ago and we passed the hat to pay for the rental of the room where we played plus to collect money for the CCE dues. There was no "charge" to play - all by donation. I can't imagine a session where a condition of playing is paying.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by John Culhane
Re: Pay to Play?
I have frequently asked people to give me money at sessions but with little success alas.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by jeandegingins
Re: Pay to Play?
Here in the USA, ASCAP sometimes demands money from bars that sponsor sessions. The theory is that the musicians play arrangments from copyrighted recordings, even if the tunes are in the public domain. But I have never heard of paying a session leader!!
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by NorthEagle
Re: Pay to Play?
At folk festivals session leaders are often paid. This is to ensure that, if you have advertised a session in a certain pub, people looking into the pub will see somebody there and join them. Otherwise, as most people are too sheepish to start a "session" on their own (if their is such a thing) the tendency is to walk away and the session never gets off the ground.
So at our local festival we normally pay a couple of guys/gals 50 quid each to spend all day in the pub. I know. It is a job very few of us would like to have. Our sympathies can only go out to those guys/gals.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Pay to Play?
All the people who've ever led me have paid for the privilege. The terms "session" and "leader" are mutually exclusive in my view.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: Pay to Play?
It's true that session "leaders" often get paid (by the landlord) but this is the first time I've ever heard of the participants paying! What a laugh!
Beanantíarlar, methinks you need to go to a different session.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Pay to Play?
Performers at festivals often lead a session as part of their contract obligations, so I suppose it counts as being paid, but this is to ensure that an all-inclusive session happens at a particular time, and that all everyone who wants to lead a tune gets a chance, and to keep things going if everyone gets an attack of modesty at the same time. At a festival session where most of the sessioners don't know each other, things can need a bit of a shove occasionally. It doesn't usually go down very well if the booked artist(s) highjack the session as a performance opportunity!
A couple of times I've been booked by a festival to lead a session - free ticket for being in a session I would have been at anyway! But it wasn't an all day commitment, just a couple of hours a day and the rest of the time I went to the informal sessions.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by c.g.
Re: Pay to Play?
At the BHT we could pay for a big sign showing a guitarist in a circle with a big diagonal red line through him...
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by pfft
Re: Pay to Play?
We put out a tip pitcher in the center of our circle so we can all throw in a couple of bucks for the waitress ... if someone decides our playing is good enough to toss in some $$$ we give that over to the waitress/house, as well.
We don't put the tip pitcher "between" our circle and the other patrons of the establishment.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Pay to Play?
Thanks everyone for your responses.
My question arose after I learned of a monthly session being started by a local musician. It will be a slow session for the first 1.5 hours, followed by a faster session for the same length of time. There ae no other pub sessions in this area, I'd need to drive 3 hours to find one. the pub in question is mostly closed at this time of year, but opens for special events and is willing to open for this. The owner has a hard time heating the place, much less sponsoring a fledgling session with it's inherent uncertainties. He will provide pizza, gratis. (In part because pubs must serve food on Sunday or they can't be open.)
The leader is a professional musician who is mostly out of work at this ime of year. He's taken on the responsibility of advertising it. He's asking a small fee, $5, from those who participate. And no, it's not me.
I had an instant revulsion, like many of you, at the thought of paying to play in a public venue. I'm still thinking that *someone* should be taking a chance on this financially, but I think it should be someone who stands to gain financially on this in the end. It's an odd situation, and since there are no other pub sessions in the area, the owner is really not tuned in to the tradition. He's a great guy and I'd like to see the thing work for him, the leader, and the rest of us players. The trad world is so small, I'm not giving any specifics that might stain reputations, sorry.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by beanatiarlar
Re: Pay to Play?
A lovely explanation. And don't worry, most of our comments are a wind up, the iodea, certainly here, is quite funny.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss