Here’s something about which I know very little so am hoping it will stimulate some enlightening discussion.
When people ask for advice about buying instruments the question is usually phrased, and the answer given, around price. Not surprisingly the advice is usually along the lines of spend as much as you can afford because at the lower end of the price range instruments don’t sound very nice.
But ITM, like all genres of folk music, is the music of the people not the professionals. Did all the country folk gather in their farmhouse kitchens playing expensive top quality instruments? On the BBC Folk Hibernia programme last night there was old footage of the Chieftains playing The Morning Dew and the Bodhrans looked and sounded like the sort of thing you get in a Dublin gift shop today and which, if taken to a session today would no doubt draw disparaging comments. On the same programme there was a rather elderly gentleman with a fiddle that looked a bit like flattened shoe box. I guess the question is, in years gone by did these country folk make good quality instruments in the community or did they also buy the best they could afford (which I guess was not a lot compared to what a professional musician might spend)?
This leads me to wonder if we like to buy expensive instruments to satisfy our own ego because we think the music will be better or is it because we think we have to? Can the average punter listening to a session really appreciate the subtle difference between a £100 and £1000 fiddle? I’m no great fan of wine but I drink it. A few years ago I was asked to taste 2 wines, a cheap one and a relatively expensive one. Sure I could taste the difference but I didn’t know which was which. Are instruments the same? Is there an element of the Emperors new clothes in there somewhere?
I get what your saying; but I think even if your average drunk punter can't tell the difference between a 100 ($) fiddle and a 1,000 ($) fiddle- you hopefully could, and I'm sure your fellow sessioneers could... and I think it just makes better,and more enjoyable playing the nicer the instrument you have.
And no, I'm sure the country folk of bygone times did NOT gather round their living rooms w/super expensive instruments, they made do w/what they had...
i dunno, but I think there's defanantly an advantage to a great quality instrument over a lousy qual. instrument- if you can afford it. And also, I know this has been said before, but a great instrument is not going to make a great player- so if your just a beginner, a really really expensive instrument is probibly going to sound about the same as a much lower cost one.
If all of that makes any sense... i'm just kind of rambleing by now...
Judging by a couple of the comments so far it sems that for some people it is more a matter of playing the instrument than making music. Or is that unfair? I guess what I could have said, in a lot less words, is does the price of the instrument have an impact on the quality of the music?
Yes!!! WEll, in some cases I should say... of course the *quality* of the instrument obviously has an impact on the quality of the music and in most cases, quality comes w/an expensive price tag. now, in some cases, it doesn't; you've all heard storys about amazing violins, etc. being bought at antique stores for ridiculusly low prices just because the owner couldn't play (and was really stupid) and therefore couldn't tell if it was a many thousand dollar instrument or a cheapo chinesemade peice of crap.
Quite right Thumper. I have argued this for years. If you are going to make some money out of playing, by all means spend £300 on a guitar, but a Yamaha 310 at £90 is adequate for a session, or general playing.
Mandolins, around £120 will get you a reasonable instrument, bodhrans around £120 (tunable) will be excellent.
It has always been a source of amazement to me that people on this site play Gibson mandolins, Avalon/Martin/Taylor guitars and so on.
And the average punter would have no idea, and the average musician wouldn't know much more.
My genius friend is now playing a guitar where the strings at £5 cost more than the instrument. But he sounds great.
1. "if we like to buy expensive instruments to satisfy our own ego because we think the music will be better or is it because we think we have to?"
How about a third option---we like the instrument itself? My fiddle wasn't high-priced, but it wasn't an el cheapo either, but I bought it because I *liked* it, and I figured I needed to like it if I was going to spend hours every day trying to learn to play the darn thing.
2. "Can the average punter listening to a session really appreciate the subtle difference between a £100 and £1000 fiddle?"
Lots of previous threads on what the punters think...
3. "Are instruments the same?"
Definitely not. It seems to me that for most instruments (except maybe for your $10 tin whistles), there is a basic level of quality below which the instrument becomes very hard to play. Pakistani pipes don't stay in tune, cigar box fiddles don't resonate, accordians fall apart and cost a fortune to fix, etc. I've been playing with a cheap fiberglass bow for a few months now and very soon I'm going to need a better one because this one doesn't respond the way I need it to, and it will be worth it to me to spend a few hundred dollars for something that helps me play better. It's not about vanity---it's about learning faster and playing better.
I wonder if there were factories churning out machine made and slapped togethor fiddles etc. in those days from korea and china - sure a fiddle in those days must have not been to expensive as there was no 'spending' money but I guess attention was paid to detail in the tone etc, whatever the manners and materials available.
I suppose you could, but by the time you make a riddle and such, it would be cheaper to buy one, best drums cost about £120.
I know you can pay £500 but that is just the old Irish custom of ripping off Americans.
Mass produced fiddles go back to the 19th century in Europe and the States. I don't know how far they go back in China, but I think it was after WWII that the Chinese fiddles started flooding the West.
Some of the old mass produced fiddles now sound quite good and go for fairly good prices, although they were cheap at the time. The age of the wood helps, of course. And a Skylark is a Skylark, no matter how old it is.
In America, at least, it was common for old-time fiddlers to make their own instrument or get one made by someone else in the community--these instruments were hardly professionally made, but there was some knowledge passed down through the generations so they knew enough about what they were doing. I've heard a crude-looking fiddle that a guy made out of scrap wood from a torn-down church, and it didn't sound bad.
I think it was also possible to mail order fiddles from Sears, which I expect was common for old-time American fiddlers.
In any case, it's true that what really matters is the fiddler rather than the fiddle. But that doesn't only mean that there's nothing wrong with a fiddler playing a crude shoe-box instrument; it also means there's nothing wrong with a fiddler of any level playing a fine instrument.
I was given a beginner's fiddle one Christmas and couldn't get a consistent note out of it for weeks. Eventually I went for lessons and the first thing the teacher said was 'throw away that bow'. He leant me a viola bow he had lying around and there was an immediate and dramatic improvement in my playing. I wonder how many beginners are put off because they are trying to learn on an instrument that a more experienced player would have problems with.
I bought a mid-range box simply because I heard a guy playing that model in a pub in Dublin, and figured if I couldn't make it sound as good as he did it would be down to me, not the instrument. Although I must have bought a dud one since mine doesn't play anything like as fast or as accurately
Coming back to the country folk, 100+ years ago melodeons were cheap and country people in Britain and Ireland could easily buy them. This is suggested to have caused a decline in pipes and fiddle.
Folk traditions sometimes throw up keen-witted people who find patrons and / or make money by fair means or foul, maybe spending it on good instruments among other things. I'm thinking of Jimmy Allen of Northumberland - nobody in the ITM pantheon comes to mind (yet!).
The Norwegian Hardanger tradition shows that making these instruments within the community has indeed been possible, over generations.
bc_box_player, that's a good demonstration of the difference a bow makes. I have 4 bows which I tend to use indiscriminately on my two fiddles, but my new fiddle really sounds at its best (to me at any rate) if I use my carbon-fibre viola bow (and it's not one of the expensive "names", either).
As far as I can see, melodeons with a good action (good enough for reels) are very expensive, and cheap ones don't have the action unless customised after purchase. Maybe there's a (new) bargain box out there, but I didn't come across it.
I've certainly not found a cheap box yet that has anything like the smooth action of my mid-range Mengascini (about 750 quid four years ago). I let a Hohner Black Dot playing friend have a go and she ordered the self same model less than a fortnight later - that's how important the feel and action are, and how much of a distinct improvement my new box was over what she'd been playing.
"Mandolins, around £120 will get you a reasonable instrument"
You MIGHT be lucky but I wouldn't be expecting anything great for that.
I'd certainly notice the difference both in terms of sound and ease of playing. You'll probably find a reasonable factory model for around £200 or so and hand made instruments start around £500.
I actually have a very good mandolin, albeit in some need of attention just now(some fret and bridge work required...when I get around to it), which would cost around £2,500 to replace although it only cost a few hundred originally. I didn't buy it because of the expense but I enjoyed playing the thing. Why not treat myself?
Of course, punters won't notice the difference. However, I do and so do a lot of musicians, although I doubt if they'd mind me playing something cheaper.
My other instruments are more modestly priced but I still bought them without due concern for the cost. My fiddle only cost about £500, although I later purchased a fairly expensive bow. There were much more expensive fiddles which I could well afford at the time. However, I really liked the one I bought and still do.
So, I don't think price (cheap or expensive) matters but what suits the player, at the time.
Yorkshiremen like myself are well known for being lets a bit thrifty when it comes to money . . in other words tight as a ducks anus.
So not letting the side down the first mandolin I bought to learn to play about 4 years ago was a 1960's Kay mandolin off Ebay . . it cost me £27.00, and I still play it.
I could afford a better one (just), so why don't I? Going back to ducks anus's again, not only am I tight with other people,I'm even more mean with myself.
If your a musician ,we all know how much pleasure and satisfaction we all get when we play.I spend hours a day sometimes practicing and playing tunes. So if I bought myself a quality instrument, it would be money well
spent.
Just had a thought . . . if I bought a mandolin costing a £1000 and I played it every day for 2 hours for twenty years . . der . . 2 * 7 = 14 * 365 = 5110 * 20 years = 102,200 hours divided by 100,000 pennies = give or take a gnats cock = 1 penny an hour.
Think I'll see me doctor on monday about a psychiatric refferal . . . .
Only a Yorkshireman could be assumed to know how tight a duck's anus actually is. This was probably established by a variety of experiments carried out by the members of the Leeds Literary And Philosophical Society twice weekly, between 1790 and 1867. A copy can be yours on application for £1000000000000000000000000000.99p, which includes the loan of birds for your personal experiments. Then, we shall come and eat up t'dooks.
somebody earlier in this topic referred to "playing the instrument" and "playing the music" with the implication that there is some difference between the two.
this made me think along the following lines
is "the music" the process of making melodic and rhythmical sounds, or is it more?
if it is just about sounds, then playing the instrument is playing the music, and the principle of better instrument = better music should apply
if it's about more than sound, what's the "more"? ancestral echoes? political inclination? dress code? circle of friends? playing good on a crap instrument? playing crap on a crap instrument?
there was also a reference to the audience's ability to discriminate between good and bad instruments. Do session players play for anyone's benefit but their own? why shouldn't a competent musician have the pleasure of playing a good instrument?
I don't have any answers to these questions myself, but I'd be interested to hear what others think
While a decent fiddle will cost you a few thousand here in the states and a top quality will cost you yer soul, and a huge insurance payment while a top quality hammered dulcimer still is reasonable for under 2 grand. Mine is a concert model I picked up for under $1500. Now before you jump on line wid the hammered dulcimer jokes (Tada boom) just another observation.
Seems as though popularity of an instrument also has an effect on price. I just haven't figured out if hammered dulcimers underpriced or a top luthier just hasn't bothered to develop the "ultimate" HD. I suspect it's supply and no demand. A couple I know wants to sell their dulcimer construction business. The add runs, wanted. Young, healthy man or woman who doesn't need insurance, loves low pay, tons of travel for pittance and working in a factory environment. Will offer to sell a dulcimer building business.
I paid £120 for a mandolin, talked him down from £150, but it is electric, Ozark I believe, nice tone, and suitable for the job. My "good" mandolin retails at about £80.
Obviously a £1000 mandolin will sound better, but as I said earlier, I woulkd be looking to earn good money playing it. For a session, what I have is admirable.
I wouldn't like to sugges that Scottish folk don't readily flash their cash around, but it must have been a slow day when Scott Skinner's violin was sold at auction in 1927 for £78. It was a 1690 Andrea Guarneri - I wonder what it's worth now? Another Scottish fiddler - Hector MacAndrew, had one too (I don't think it was the same one). There seems to be a lot of information about the fiddles played in Scotland in the 19th century, but I haven't seen much about the Irish fiddles.
I saw a Jimmy Moon mandolin with Fishman pickup going for £120 in Crime, I mean, Cash Converters once, and casually mentioned it to a luthier acquaintance, who zipped round there and snapped it up without futher ado. Proof that Scots folk will flash the cash when there's a bargain on the go!
My own mandolins are fairly decent and both cost me under £400 from makers who now charge a lot more. The gig banjo I got from Andybanjo was also under £400 and is a very good instrument for the price.
Can "punters" tell the difference? Not directly, but good tone and volume will win more appreciative listeners among musicians and non-musicians alike, than arcane technical skills, I've found, even if your playing is fairly pedestrian at best like mine.
Oh, I thought this was the othe rthread about "How much did you pay?"
On the topic here, I remember Donough telling me about the great tone a famous classical violinist got at a session in Perth (and I'll leave the Donough to tell that story)
I related the story to a local fiddle maker who harrumphed (as is his wont) and said that top touring classical players generally have violins costing 10 times as much as even the most famous trad fiddlers.
A bit more advise from a middle age fat fart like me . . if you find an instrument you really love . . and you can just about afford it (or if you can't get a bank loan), then buyt it cos lifes to short . . believe me . . Reminds me of that old song . .
*Bodhran* Bliss, as the name implies, might not "major" on the mandolin, i.e it's not necessarily his main instrument. So, surely, this is relevant too when deciding how much to "fork out" for a particular instrument.
I wouldn't argue either that it's necessary to spend as much as £1000 on a mandolin but, if you really enjoy playing the instrument, and happen to find one for that price or more/less/ whatever that you fall in love with, why not?
BB also says
"Obviously a £1000 mandolin will sound better, but as I said earlier, I would be looking to earn good money playing it. For a session, what I have is admirable"
Is a musical instrument merely a tool of your trade? Many great (and not so great) musicians don't seek to make a living out of playing music but they just enjoy playing for its own sake.
For a session, my instrument is admirable too.
As I said earlier, play what you enjoy regardless of cost. Just as you shouldn't feel ashamed of playing a cheaper instrument, don't let inverted snobbery get in the way either!
Hi,
IMHO music is about having a lot of fun, especially when shared with others. Sure, not everybody will totally agree. However, as more expensive instruments are often easier and more enjoyable to play than cheaper ones there is IMHO no reason why not to use good quality ones even for amateur music.
I observed this with all the instruments I played so far (clarinet, saxophone, tin whistle, low whistle, concert flute, bodhran).
It doesn't always follow that newer instruments are any better than older ones, and similarly, it certainly doesn't follow that an older instrument is less expensive than a brand new one - often the opposite.
My concertina is late 19th Century and my p.a. late 1960s - but both are still rather expensive.
Perhaps the human psyche needs to pursue excellence, be
it a skill (music making ?) or the recognition of excellence in
other ability -the crafting of a superior musical instument.
Whats wrong in the combination of both ? Twice the satisfaction if the price to be paid --not just in monetary terms--
can be justified and afforded.
A ferrari car will outperform a lada, but a lada will get you to the same place, in the same time, as the speed limit is 70mph whatever you are driving.
I couldn't justify the outlay on a ferrari, you'd hardly get a guitar in the boot, and I couldn't justify sitting in the kitchen playing a Martin guitar, badly, to amuse the dog. A Yamaha 310 is good enough, and the dog doesn't mind.
Re Scott Skinner's Guarneri: At one time, just within living memory, fine quality old violins were relatively plentiful and often affordable by someone on a middleclass income. £78 in 1928 for instance might be the equivalent of say £8-9K today. In the 50's, as I walked home from school I would pass a violin shop (it's still there and now called Cremona House), and in the window was an Amati cello selling at £400, equivalent to about £8-9K today. Still affordable for many, but still not for the likes of a family in England struggling to make ends meet in the aftermath of a world war. That cello would sell today for a price well into 6 figures, and the same applies to a Guarneri violin. (I've sometimes wondered what happened to that cello).
Why that disproportionate increase? Supply and demand must be the answer. I remember my cello teacher and other musicians of the time complaining that the really good instruments were being bought up by collectors and investors (rarely by musicians) and disappearing out of the country and off the market. In some cases the instruments were usefully being acquired by music colleges (this still happens), who would then loan them out for a specified period to graduate students of a suitable standard embarking on a solo career; and in Russia most soloists play instruments on loan from the State. The advantage of these loan systems is that the best instruments are being made available to the younger generation of musicians who could not possibly afford to buy them and are therefore being played regularly. Immeasurably better than being stored in an investor's bank vault or in a museum display case.
What of the future? There are luthiers who are making violins and cellos that are as good as the great instruments of the past, and will probably be the "Stradivarii" and "Guarnerii" of the next century. They are often very carefully crafted copies of specific "name" instruments, made using the best materials, and using the same techniques and craftsman-made tools that the craftsmen of 300 years ago would have used (such details do indeed matter if you want the best results). Such instruments are affordable if you really need one. Whether they are suitable for the folk musician or other than the professional or top amateur classical player is another matter. Personally, I think not; it's overkill, a bit like driving a Ferrari when touring in the West of Ireland.
I think there is a difference between a cheap (i.e. - poor quality) instrument, a well made instrument, and the budget bustsers some folks buy.
A poor quality instrument will hold you back - even if a great player can make it sound decent.
A well made instrument, even if not expensive, will play to the level of the player.
A superb instrument...will look nice and still only play to the level of the player.
Seriously, I do believe there is a point where we're just buying for aesthetic reasons, some self-perceived difference other listeners, even session mates, can't hear, or some less than honorable reason (showing off wealth, compensating for poor playing, etc.).
One of the best-sounding fiddles (i.e. quality and volume of tone) I've heard in sessions is played by one of the best fiddlers in my area. He made it himself.
I'm looking to buy a 1900-euro button accordion - the cost is substantial and I will take a long time to accumulate that cash. The thing is tho - as made before by a box player, I'm looking for a much better sound than my current instrument can deliver. I gain a great deal of satisfaction playing music on my own - even more so with friends, but fundamental to me is that I enjoy the sound that my instrument makes andthe ability of my instrument to become an extension of me and my personality. My current instrument (a black dot box) is probably going to be a hindrance to making progress in my music. I still absolutely love the wee thing and know that others would play it better than I could, however I'm keen to progress and for my music to be as pleasing to my and others' ears as possible. The same thing applies to harmonicas, which are my main instruments. You can get a tune out of a cheap one, but you can do so much more with one that is considered relatively expensive. I can't wait to play a new box.
Of course, the bottom line from the budget-minded musician's point of view is whether the instrument is easily and enjoyably playable. That crucially includes whether it is robust enough not to develop faults soon after acquisition. A box prone to developing frequent faults, for example, would be a real liability. As I'm sure Brown Creeper would agree, we harmonica players are relatively fortunate (though not quite as much so as whistle players) in that reasonable instruments are not too expensive, and harmonicas don't vary in tone anywhere near as much as some people suggest. Having said that, you can't half get through them if you don't develop a good playing technique early on, and the less you pay the more prone they are to blowing out. I reckon to pay £20-£25 for a decent 10-hole harp such as a Hohner blues harp, Special 20 or a Lee Oskar, though I do need several in different keys and one or two spares. You can buy a perfectly good chromatic for £70-£80, though you could consider paying a bit more if they are your main harmonicas. With chroms there's no doubt that the more you pay the better you get. Still not too bad, and US buyers can do a lot better than we can in the UK price-wise. You can pay a lot more but you have to apply your own personal version of the Law of Diminishing Returns, which in my case sets in hard at £20 for a 10-hole. I have some that cost me half that price, and I can get a good tune out of them, but I need some basic skills and tools to set them up properly and possibly do some fine-tuning. I could also tell you the names of some real cheapies that don't last five minutes when put under the pressure of a few jigs and reels, and some cheapo tremolos that look like such great bargains on eBay but which need more air to play than the average vacuum cleaner could provide. I think that if you need to cut costs and not pay too much for your instrument you should be okay if you're a seasoned player and can tell quickly whether the thing in question will ever be capable of being in tune with itself (and stay in tune for more than two minutes) or simply whether the action needs adjusting. Otherwise take someone along who knows what they're talking about, get them to play whatever it is for a goodly length of time and ignore whatever the bloke in the music shop tells you (and I have friends who work in music shops - heheh).
With the exchange rates as they are, unless you are buying an instrument that someone has stored in the basement for a long time, prices of any instrument not made in the US has gotten astronomical. And several sellers have adjusted their prices for American made to match the UK.
I can not imagine buying an instrument on Ebay. A poster months ago said his accordion dealer had 6 instruments of identical provenance. Each was different, and only one was worth his while.
I am an experienced piano player and it took alot of trips to ind one that had an action and sound I was comfortable with.
If you can't play an instrument well enough to know what you are buying, find a player you trust and have them advise. Even buying from a reputable dealer, I didn't do that on my button box. It was fundamentally a great box, but it took several rounds with a knowledgeable tuner, and some minor adjustments to make it work well. Fortunatley the experienced player played it after I bought it and was able to write a "prescription" for adjustments.
Someone earlier had it right. Life's too short.
If you don't want a house full of instruments that don't play right and waste alot of your time, take the time, do the homework, and do the footwork to find a good instrument.
I have a good friend that plays one of the best sounding Martin D-45's I've ever heard. That guitar lists at over $9K, though I know that he didn't pay that much for it when he bought it from a friend 6 yrs ago. He makes his living as a full time musician. I play a much less expensive Martin DCME, which suits my purposes fine. I cannot justify paying what the D-45 sells for, because I don't make my living on guitar, and the instrument I have sounds fine and plays well enough.
You can eat the free nuts with your Lee Oskar. Just rinse out the harp under a stream of lukewarm water in the gents afterwards and shake out the drops (from your harmonica - duh). They last longer than any other blues harp on the planet and you can replace the reedplates. Just tune up 3-blow by a whole tone on all your 10-holes for Irish and join the Paddy Richter brigade.
They never have the reed plates here, or you go in looking for a Bb set and they have everything but. Our singers use loads of keys so I have seven of the bloody things.
And I would get confused with all that shaking. Playing the bodhran usually earns me enough name calling.
The remedy is to buy cheapie harps in the less-used keys. They wouldn't have the staying-power for constant use but they're great for just the odd song. I know your problem. A few Huang Star Performers in the weird keys wouldn't set you back too much. I always have my Bb one with me and it's lasted me decades. Well, nearly. My Hohner C blues harp was used to make recordings five years ago and it's still going strong without the need for any fine-tuning. A low F is very good for a lot of songs sung by chaps, and I'd definitely recommend a Lee Oskar there. Buy just the one and you'll have a session low F for life. Any key below G down to D, get the low-tuned harps. I reckon Special 20s are the best. Oskars don't go below low F. It's a wonderful world. Ask me anything!
I started out with a guitar that cost less than $20 brand new (1957) and barely qualified as a real instrument. It held me back for a while, until I could afford something better. Eventually, the "something better" was holding me back, and the "something better" after that...
If your instrument doesn't satisfy your desire to make good music, and you can afford to upgrade, then it's time to do it. Isn't it really that simple?
Jayhawk has a point. A good few years back I was playing in an orchestra. The lead cellist was very talented on her instrument. One week we had a visiting conductor who was also a cellist. He borrowed the lead cellists cello to demonstrate how a particular passage should sound and he made her cello sound even better than she could. Her comment was "I never knew it could sound like that!" To a certain extent it's not what you've got or how much it costs that matters, it's what you do with it
Some years ago a professional cellist who was playing a concerto with us had a problem with his bow shortly before he was due on the platform, so he borrowed mine and afterwards thanked me and said it had done an excellent job.
I haven't cleaned that bow since
An inexpensive instrument that is set up correctly will sound a lot better than an expensive one that is not. My experience is only with violins which I sell through my web site. It is often the case that the less expensive instruments can sound the best, they may not quite have the speed of response and will not hold their own in the highest treble positions but nevertheless are good buys if set up correctly. So many violins have the sound post in the wrong place, a bridge that is too thick, nut too high and often with old violins small separations that can only be seen by puting a light inside the instrument. All of these faults contribute to a mediocre fiddle.
There is some information covering sound post, bridge, pegs etc. on my web site. http://www.westcountryviolins.com
Then select the violin care link lower right.
What Price?
What Price?
Here’s something about which I know very little so am hoping it will stimulate some enlightening discussion.
When people ask for advice about buying instruments the question is usually phrased, and the answer given, around price. Not surprisingly the advice is usually along the lines of spend as much as you can afford because at the lower end of the price range instruments don’t sound very nice.
But ITM, like all genres of folk music, is the music of the people not the professionals. Did all the country folk gather in their farmhouse kitchens playing expensive top quality instruments? On the BBC Folk Hibernia programme last night there was old footage of the Chieftains playing The Morning Dew and the Bodhrans looked and sounded like the sort of thing you get in a Dublin gift shop today and which, if taken to a session today would no doubt draw disparaging comments. On the same programme there was a rather elderly gentleman with a fiddle that looked a bit like flattened shoe box. I guess the question is, in years gone by did these country folk make good quality instruments in the community or did they also buy the best they could afford (which I guess was not a lot compared to what a professional musician might spend)?
This leads me to wonder if we like to buy expensive instruments to satisfy our own ego because we think the music will be better or is it because we think we have to? Can the average punter listening to a session really appreciate the subtle difference between a £100 and £1000 fiddle? I’m no great fan of wine but I drink it. A few years ago I was asked to taste 2 wines, a cheap one and a relatively expensive one. Sure I could taste the difference but I didn’t know which was which. Are instruments the same? Is there an element of the Emperors new clothes in there somewhere?
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by Thumper
Re: What Price?
Quoting myself:
"Life is too short to play crappy instruments."
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by Eliot
Re: What Price?
I get what your saying; but I think even if your average drunk punter can't tell the difference between a 100 ($) fiddle and a 1,000 ($) fiddle- you hopefully could, and I'm sure your fellow sessioneers could... and I think it just makes better,and more enjoyable playing the nicer the instrument you have.
And no, I'm sure the country folk of bygone times did NOT gather round their living rooms w/super expensive instruments, they made do w/what they had...
i dunno, but I think there's defanantly an advantage to a great quality instrument over a lousy qual. instrument- if you can afford it. And also, I know this has been said before, but a great instrument is not going to make a great player- so if your just a beginner, a really really expensive instrument is probibly going to sound about the same as a much lower cost one.
If all of that makes any sense... i'm just kind of rambleing by now...
I'll stop.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by BE
Re: What Price?
Another question would be If these old time musicians could have afforded better quality instruments would they have done so?
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by bowburner
Re: What Price?
Why should "high quality" or expensive(not necessarily the same thing) only be played by professional musicians?
Everyone has a right to buy and play what they choose.
Have to dash now or I'd elaborate more.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by Johannes J
Re: What Price?
Judging by a couple of the comments so far it sems that for some people it is more a matter of playing the instrument than making music. Or is that unfair? I guess what I could have said, in a lot less words, is does the price of the instrument have an impact on the quality of the music?
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by Thumper
Re: What Price?
When I wear good quality boots, I enjoy walking much more. But I'm going to go for walks anyway.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: What Price?
Yes!!! WEll, in some cases I should say... of course the *quality* of the instrument obviously has an impact on the quality of the music and in most cases, quality comes w/an expensive price tag. now, in some cases, it doesn't; you've all heard storys about amazing violins, etc. being bought at antique stores for ridiculusly low prices just because the owner couldn't play (and was really stupid) and therefore couldn't tell if it was a many thousand dollar instrument or a cheapo chinesemade peice of crap.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by BE
Re: What Price?
Quite right Thumper. I have argued this for years. If you are going to make some money out of playing, by all means spend £300 on a guitar, but a Yamaha 310 at £90 is adequate for a session, or general playing.
Mandolins, around £120 will get you a reasonable instrument, bodhrans around £120 (tunable) will be excellent.
It has always been a source of amazement to me that people on this site play Gibson mandolins, Avalon/Martin/Taylor guitars and so on.
And the average punter would have no idea, and the average musician wouldn't know much more.
My genius friend is now playing a guitar where the strings at £5 cost more than the instrument. But he sounds great.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
Three questions here:
1. "if we like to buy expensive instruments to satisfy our own ego because we think the music will be better or is it because we think we have to?"
How about a third option---we like the instrument itself? My fiddle wasn't high-priced, but it wasn't an el cheapo either, but I bought it because I *liked* it, and I figured I needed to like it if I was going to spend hours every day trying to learn to play the darn thing.
2. "Can the average punter listening to a session really appreciate the subtle difference between a £100 and £1000 fiddle?"
Lots of previous threads on what the punters think...
3. "Are instruments the same?"
Definitely not. It seems to me that for most instruments (except maybe for your $10 tin whistles), there is a basic level of quality below which the instrument becomes very hard to play. Pakistani pipes don't stay in tune, cigar box fiddles don't resonate, accordians fall apart and cost a fortune to fix, etc. I've been playing with a cheap fiberglass bow for a few months now and very soon I'm going to need a better one because this one doesn't respond the way I need it to, and it will be worth it to me to spend a few hundred dollars for something that helps me play better. It's not about vanity---it's about learning faster and playing better.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by kennedy
Re: What Price?
I wonder if there were factories churning out machine made and slapped togethor fiddles etc. in those days from korea and china - sure a fiddle in those days must have not been to expensive as there was no 'spending' money but I guess attention was paid to detail in the tone etc, whatever the manners and materials available.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by StevieE
Re: What Price?
Only posers pay $10 for a whistle, as everyone knows a whistle is about $5, which makes it the ideal instrument where cost is concerned.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
And you can make your own bodhran from a worn out leather coat culled from the bin behind the thrift store.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: What Price?
I suppose you could, but by the time you make a riddle and such, it would be cheaper to buy one, best drums cost about £120.
I know you can pay £500 but that is just the old Irish custom of ripping off Americans.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
StevieE,
Mass produced fiddles go back to the 19th century in Europe and the States. I don't know how far they go back in China, but I think it was after WWII that the Chinese fiddles started flooding the West.
Some of the old mass produced fiddles now sound quite good and go for fairly good prices, although they were cheap at the time. The age of the wood helps, of course. And a Skylark is a Skylark, no matter how old it is.
In America, at least, it was common for old-time fiddlers to make their own instrument or get one made by someone else in the community--these instruments were hardly professionally made, but there was some knowledge passed down through the generations so they knew enough about what they were doing. I've heard a crude-looking fiddle that a guy made out of scrap wood from a torn-down church, and it didn't sound bad.
I think it was also possible to mail order fiddles from Sears, which I expect was common for old-time American fiddlers.
In any case, it's true that what really matters is the fiddler rather than the fiddle. But that doesn't only mean that there's nothing wrong with a fiddler playing a crude shoe-box instrument; it also means there's nothing wrong with a fiddler of any level playing a fine instrument.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Marklar
Re: What Price?
nd you can make your own bodhran from a worn out leather coat culled from the bin behind the thrift store.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by jehanna
Re: What Price?
well crud-- how did that get there before I finisned.
the rest = I have a friend in Chattanooga who made one from duct tape -- does not sound half bad
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by jehanna
Re: What Price?
I was given a beginner's fiddle one Christmas and couldn't get a consistent note out of it for weeks. Eventually I went for lessons and the first thing the teacher said was 'throw away that bow'. He leant me a viola bow he had lying around and there was an immediate and dramatic improvement in my playing. I wonder how many beginners are put off because they are trying to learn on an instrument that a more experienced player would have problems with.
I bought a mid-range box simply because I heard a guy playing that model in a pub in Dublin, and figured if I couldn't make it sound as good as he did it would be down to me, not the instrument. Although I must have bought a dud one since mine doesn't play anything like as fast or as accurately
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: What Price?
Coming back to the country folk, 100+ years ago melodeons were cheap and country people in Britain and Ireland could easily buy them. This is suggested to have caused a decline in pipes and fiddle.
Folk traditions sometimes throw up keen-witted people who find patrons and / or make money by fair means or foul, maybe spending it on good instruments among other things. I'm thinking of Jimmy Allen of Northumberland - nobody in the ITM pantheon comes to mind (yet!).
The Norwegian Hardanger tradition shows that making these instruments within the community has indeed been possible, over generations.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by nicholas
Re: What Price?
bc_box_player, that's a good demonstration of the difference a bow makes. I have 4 bows which I tend to use indiscriminately on my two fiddles, but my new fiddle really sounds at its best (to me at any rate) if I use my carbon-fibre viola bow (and it's not one of the expensive "names", either).
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What Price?
The difference in comfort alone justified my purchase of a 'high-end' wooden flute over my 18-wheeler-like Delrin flute.
It helps that the wooden one quite clearly has more complex harmonics.
A punter in a session won;t care, but my hands and ears certainly do.
For flutes, anyway, even the very highest high end ITM flutes are dirt cheap compared to a "pro" classical string instrument.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by wormdiet
Re: What Price?
As far as I can see, melodeons with a good action (good enough for reels) are very expensive, and cheap ones don't have the action unless customised after purchase. Maybe there's a (new) bargain box out there, but I didn't come across it.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by nicholas
Re: What Price?
I've certainly not found a cheap box yet that has anything like the smooth action of my mid-range Mengascini (about 750 quid four years ago). I let a Hohner Black Dot playing friend have a go and she ordered the self same model less than a fortnight later - that's how important the feel and action are, and how much of a distinct improvement my new box was over what she'd been playing.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: What Price?
BB says
"Mandolins, around £120 will get you a reasonable instrument"
You MIGHT be lucky but I wouldn't be expecting anything great for that.
I'd certainly notice the difference both in terms of sound and ease of playing. You'll probably find a reasonable factory model for around £200 or so and hand made instruments start around £500.
I actually have a very good mandolin, albeit in some need of attention just now(some fret and bridge work required...when I get around to it), which would cost around £2,500 to replace although it only cost a few hundred originally. I didn't buy it because of the expense but I enjoyed playing the thing. Why not treat myself?
Of course, punters won't notice the difference. However, I do and so do a lot of musicians, although I doubt if they'd mind me playing something cheaper.
My other instruments are more modestly priced but I still bought them without due concern for the cost. My fiddle only cost about £500, although I later purchased a fairly expensive bow. There were much more expensive fiddles which I could well afford at the time. However, I really liked the one I bought and still do.
So, I don't think price (cheap or expensive) matters but what suits the player, at the time.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Johannes J
Re: What Price?
Yorkshiremen like myself are well known for being lets a bit thrifty when it comes to money . . in other words tight as a ducks anus.
So not letting the side down the first mandolin I bought to learn to play about 4 years ago was a 1960's Kay mandolin off Ebay . . it cost me £27.00, and I still play it.
I could afford a better one (just), so why don't I? Going back to ducks anus's again, not only am I tight with other people,I'm even more mean with myself.
If your a musician ,we all know how much pleasure and satisfaction we all get when we play.I spend hours a day sometimes practicing and playing tunes. So if I bought myself a quality instrument, it would be money well
spent.
Just had a thought . . . if I bought a mandolin costing a £1000 and I played it every day for 2 hours for twenty years . . der . . 2 * 7 = 14 * 365 = 5110 * 20 years = 102,200 hours divided by 100,000 pennies = give or take a gnats cock = 1 penny an hour.
Think I'll see me doctor on monday about a psychiatric refferal . . . .
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Justintime
Re: What Price?
Only a Yorkshireman could be assumed to know how tight a duck's anus actually is. This was probably established by a variety of experiments carried out by the members of the Leeds Literary And Philosophical Society twice weekly, between 1790 and 1867. A copy can be yours on application for £1000000000000000000000000000.99p, which includes the loan of birds for your personal experiments. Then, we shall come and eat up t'dooks.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by nicholas
Re: What Price?
somebody earlier in this topic referred to "playing the instrument" and "playing the music" with the implication that there is some difference between the two.
this made me think along the following lines
is "the music" the process of making melodic and rhythmical sounds, or is it more?
if it is just about sounds, then playing the instrument is playing the music, and the principle of better instrument = better music should apply
if it's about more than sound, what's the "more"? ancestral echoes? political inclination? dress code? circle of friends? playing good on a crap instrument? playing crap on a crap instrument?
there was also a reference to the audience's ability to discriminate between good and bad instruments. Do session players play for anyone's benefit but their own? why shouldn't a competent musician have the pleasure of playing a good instrument?
I don't have any answers to these questions myself, but I'd be interested to hear what others think
MYBC
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: What Price?
Just a thought.
While a decent fiddle will cost you a few thousand here in the states and a top quality will cost you yer soul, and a huge insurance payment while a top quality hammered dulcimer still is reasonable for under 2 grand. Mine is a concert model I picked up for under $1500. Now before you jump on line wid the hammered dulcimer jokes (Tada boom) just another observation.
Seems as though popularity of an instrument also has an effect on price. I just haven't figured out if hammered dulcimers underpriced or a top luthier just hasn't bothered to develop the "ultimate" HD. I suspect it's supply and no demand. A couple I know wants to sell their dulcimer construction business. The add runs, wanted. Young, healthy man or woman who doesn't need insurance, loves low pay, tons of travel for pittance and working in a factory environment. Will offer to sell a dulcimer building business.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by jrathbun
Re: What Price?
I paid £120 for a mandolin, talked him down from £150, but it is electric, Ozark I believe, nice tone, and suitable for the job. My "good" mandolin retails at about £80.
Obviously a £1000 mandolin will sound better, but as I said earlier, I woulkd be looking to earn good money playing it. For a session, what I have is admirable.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
I wouldn't like to sugges that Scottish folk don't readily flash their cash around, but it must have been a slow day when Scott Skinner's violin was sold at auction in 1927 for £78. It was a 1690 Andrea Guarneri - I wonder what it's worth now? Another Scottish fiddler - Hector MacAndrew, had one too (I don't think it was the same one). There seems to be a lot of information about the fiddles played in Scotland in the 19th century, but I haven't seen much about the Irish fiddles.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by RichardB
Re: What Price?
I saw a Jimmy Moon mandolin with Fishman pickup going for £120 in Crime, I mean, Cash Converters once, and casually mentioned it to a luthier acquaintance, who zipped round there and snapped it up without futher ado. Proof that Scots folk will flash the cash when there's a bargain on the go!
My own mandolins are fairly decent and both cost me under £400 from makers who now charge a lot more. The gig banjo I got from Andybanjo was also under £400 and is a very good instrument for the price.
Can "punters" tell the difference? Not directly, but good tone and volume will win more appreciative listeners among musicians and non-musicians alike, than arcane technical skills, I've found, even if your playing is fairly pedestrian at best like mine.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Bren
Re: What Price?
Oh, I thought this was the othe rthread about "How much did you pay?"
On the topic here, I remember Donough telling me about the great tone a famous classical violinist got at a session in Perth (and I'll leave the Donough to tell that story)
I related the story to a local fiddle maker who harrumphed (as is his wont) and said that top touring classical players generally have violins costing 10 times as much as even the most famous trad fiddlers.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Bren
Re: What Price?
Agree with bohdran bliss . . Iv'e tried ozarks my self and for £100 they are great value for money . .
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Justintime
Re: What Price?
A bit more advise from a middle age fat fart like me . . if you find an instrument you really love . . and you can just about afford it (or if you can't get a bank loan), then buyt it cos lifes to short . . believe me . . Reminds me of that old song . .
"enjoy yourself its later than you think . .
enjoy yourself while your still in the pink "
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Justintime
Re: What Price?
A couple of points....
*Bodhran* Bliss, as the name implies, might not "major" on the mandolin, i.e it's not necessarily his main instrument. So, surely, this is relevant too when deciding how much to "fork out" for a particular instrument.
I wouldn't argue either that it's necessary to spend as much as £1000 on a mandolin but, if you really enjoy playing the instrument, and happen to find one for that price or more/less/ whatever that you fall in love with, why not?
BB also says
"Obviously a £1000 mandolin will sound better, but as I said earlier, I would be looking to earn good money playing it. For a session, what I have is admirable"
Is a musical instrument merely a tool of your trade? Many great (and not so great) musicians don't seek to make a living out of playing music but they just enjoy playing for its own sake.
For a session, my instrument is admirable too.
As I said earlier, play what you enjoy regardless of cost. Just as you shouldn't feel ashamed of playing a cheaper instrument, don't let inverted snobbery get in the way either!
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Johannes J
Re: What Price?
Hi,
IMHO music is about having a lot of fun, especially when shared with others. Sure, not everybody will totally agree. However, as more expensive instruments are often easier and more enjoyable to play than cheaper ones there is IMHO no reason why not to use good quality ones even for amateur music.
I observed this with all the instruments I played so far (clarinet, saxophone, tin whistle, low whistle, concert flute, bodhran).
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by brotherstorm
Re: What Price?
It doesn't always follow that newer instruments are any better than older ones, and similarly, it certainly doesn't follow that an older instrument is less expensive than a brand new one - often the opposite.
My concertina is late 19th Century and my p.a. late 1960s - but both are still rather expensive.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by geoffwright
Re: What Price?
Perhaps the human psyche needs to pursue excellence, be
it a skill (music making ?) or the recognition of excellence in
other ability -the crafting of a superior musical instument.
Whats wrong in the combination of both ? Twice the satisfaction if the price to be paid --not just in monetary terms--
can be justified and afforded.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by duffgen
Re: What Price?
A ferrari car will outperform a lada, but a lada will get you to the same place, in the same time, as the speed limit is 70mph whatever you are driving.
I couldn't justify the outlay on a ferrari, you'd hardly get a guitar in the boot, and I couldn't justify sitting in the kitchen playing a Martin guitar, badly, to amuse the dog. A Yamaha 310 is good enough, and the dog doesn't mind.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
Re Scott Skinner's Guarneri: At one time, just within living memory, fine quality old violins were relatively plentiful and often affordable by someone on a middleclass income. £78 in 1928 for instance might be the equivalent of say £8-9K today. In the 50's, as I walked home from school I would pass a violin shop (it's still there and now called Cremona House), and in the window was an Amati cello selling at £400, equivalent to about £8-9K today. Still affordable for many, but still not for the likes of a family in England struggling to make ends meet in the aftermath of a world war. That cello would sell today for a price well into 6 figures, and the same applies to a Guarneri violin. (I've sometimes wondered what happened to that cello).
Why that disproportionate increase? Supply and demand must be the answer. I remember my cello teacher and other musicians of the time complaining that the really good instruments were being bought up by collectors and investors (rarely by musicians) and disappearing out of the country and off the market. In some cases the instruments were usefully being acquired by music colleges (this still happens), who would then loan them out for a specified period to graduate students of a suitable standard embarking on a solo career; and in Russia most soloists play instruments on loan from the State. The advantage of these loan systems is that the best instruments are being made available to the younger generation of musicians who could not possibly afford to buy them and are therefore being played regularly. Immeasurably better than being stored in an investor's bank vault or in a museum display case.
What of the future? There are luthiers who are making violins and cellos that are as good as the great instruments of the past, and will probably be the "Stradivarii" and "Guarnerii" of the next century. They are often very carefully crafted copies of specific "name" instruments, made using the best materials, and using the same techniques and craftsman-made tools that the craftsmen of 300 years ago would have used (such details do indeed matter if you want the best results). Such instruments are affordable if you really need one. Whether they are suitable for the folk musician or other than the professional or top amateur classical player is another matter. Personally, I think not; it's overkill, a bit like driving a Ferrari when touring in the West of Ireland.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What Price?
I think there is a difference between a cheap (i.e. - poor quality) instrument, a well made instrument, and the budget bustsers some folks buy.
A poor quality instrument will hold you back - even if a great player can make it sound decent.
A well made instrument, even if not expensive, will play to the level of the player.
A superb instrument...will look nice and still only play to the level of the player.
Seriously, I do believe there is a point where we're just buying for aesthetic reasons, some self-perceived difference other listeners, even session mates, can't hear, or some less than honorable reason (showing off wealth, compensating for poor playing, etc.).
Eric
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Jayhawk
Re: What Price?
Love it, Jayhawk.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
I mean, I like golf but I am not buying a Calloway super duper driver.
Unless I turn up at the masters.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
One of the best-sounding fiddles (i.e. quality and volume of tone) I've heard in sessions is played by one of the best fiddlers in my area. He made it himself.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What Price?
I'm looking to buy a 1900-euro button accordion - the cost is substantial and I will take a long time to accumulate that cash. The thing is tho - as made before by a box player, I'm looking for a much better sound than my current instrument can deliver. I gain a great deal of satisfaction playing music on my own - even more so with friends, but fundamental to me is that I enjoy the sound that my instrument makes andthe ability of my instrument to become an extension of me and my personality. My current instrument (a black dot box) is probably going to be a hindrance to making progress in my music. I still absolutely love the wee thing and know that others would play it better than I could, however I'm keen to progress and for my music to be as pleasing to my and others' ears as possible. The same thing applies to harmonicas, which are my main instruments. You can get a tune out of a cheap one, but you can do so much more with one that is considered relatively expensive. I can't wait to play a new box.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Brown Creeper
Re: What Price?
Of course, the bottom line from the budget-minded musician's point of view is whether the instrument is easily and enjoyably playable. That crucially includes whether it is robust enough not to develop faults soon after acquisition. A box prone to developing frequent faults, for example, would be a real liability. As I'm sure Brown Creeper would agree, we harmonica players are relatively fortunate (though not quite as much so as whistle players) in that reasonable instruments are not too expensive, and harmonicas don't vary in tone anywhere near as much as some people suggest. Having said that, you can't half get through them if you don't develop a good playing technique early on, and the less you pay the more prone they are to blowing out. I reckon to pay £20-£25 for a decent 10-hole harp such as a Hohner blues harp, Special 20 or a Lee Oskar, though I do need several in different keys and one or two spares. You can buy a perfectly good chromatic for £70-£80, though you could consider paying a bit more if they are your main harmonicas. With chroms there's no doubt that the more you pay the better you get. Still not too bad, and US buyers can do a lot better than we can in the UK price-wise. You can pay a lot more but you have to apply your own personal version of the Law of Diminishing Returns, which in my case sets in hard at £20 for a 10-hole. I have some that cost me half that price, and I can get a good tune out of them, but I need some basic skills and tools to set them up properly and possibly do some fine-tuning. I could also tell you the names of some real cheapies that don't last five minutes when put under the pressure of a few jigs and reels, and some cheapo tremolos that look like such great bargains on eBay but which need more air to play than the average vacuum cleaner could provide. I think that if you need to cut costs and not pay too much for your instrument you should be okay if you're a seasoned player and can tell quickly whether the thing in question will ever be capable of being in tune with itself (and stay in tune for more than two minutes) or simply whether the action needs adjusting. Otherwise take someone along who knows what they're talking about, get them to play whatever it is for a goodly length of time and ignore whatever the bloke in the music shop tells you (and I have friends who work in music shops - heheh).
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: What Price?
I play Lee Oskar, great value for the price. I discovered that once I stopped eating the free nuts in the pub, they didn't "blow out" as much.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
Steve Shaw
With the exchange rates as they are, unless you are buying an instrument that someone has stored in the basement for a long time, prices of any instrument not made in the US has gotten astronomical. And several sellers have adjusted their prices for American made to match the UK.
I can not imagine buying an instrument on Ebay. A poster months ago said his accordion dealer had 6 instruments of identical provenance. Each was different, and only one was worth his while.
I am an experienced piano player and it took alot of trips to ind one that had an action and sound I was comfortable with.
If you can't play an instrument well enough to know what you are buying, find a player you trust and have them advise. Even buying from a reputable dealer, I didn't do that on my button box. It was fundamentally a great box, but it took several rounds with a knowledgeable tuner, and some minor adjustments to make it work well. Fortunatley the experienced player played it after I bought it and was able to write a "prescription" for adjustments.
Someone earlier had it right. Life's too short.
If you don't want a house full of instruments that don't play right and waste alot of your time, take the time, do the homework, and do the footwork to find a good instrument.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by zippydw
Re: What Price?
I have a good friend that plays one of the best sounding Martin D-45's I've ever heard. That guitar lists at over $9K, though I know that he didn't pay that much for it when he bought it from a friend 6 yrs ago. He makes his living as a full time musician. I play a much less expensive Martin DCME, which suits my purposes fine. I cannot justify paying what the D-45 sells for, because I don't make my living on guitar, and the instrument I have sounds fine and plays well enough.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by pbassnote
Re: What Price?
You can eat the free nuts with your Lee Oskar. Just rinse out the harp under a stream of lukewarm water in the gents afterwards and shake out the drops (from your harmonica - duh). They last longer than any other blues harp on the planet and you can replace the reedplates. Just tune up 3-blow by a whole tone on all your 10-holes for Irish and join the Paddy Richter brigade.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: What Price?
They never have the reed plates here, or you go in looking for a Bb set and they have everything but. Our singers use loads of keys so I have seven of the bloody things.
And I would get confused with all that shaking. Playing the bodhran usually earns me enough name calling.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: What Price?
The remedy is to buy cheapie harps in the less-used keys. They wouldn't have the staying-power for constant use but they're great for just the odd song. I know your problem. A few Huang Star Performers in the weird keys wouldn't set you back too much. I always have my Bb one with me and it's lasted me decades. Well, nearly. My Hohner C blues harp was used to make recordings five years ago and it's still going strong without the need for any fine-tuning. A low F is very good for a lot of songs sung by chaps, and I'd definitely recommend a Lee Oskar there. Buy just the one and you'll have a session low F for life. Any key below G down to D, get the low-tuned harps. I reckon Special 20s are the best. Oskars don't go below low F. It's a wonderful world. Ask me anything!
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: What Price?
I started out with a guitar that cost less than $20 brand new (1957) and barely qualified as a real instrument. It held me back for a while, until I could afford something better. Eventually, the "something better" was holding me back, and the "something better" after that...
If your instrument doesn't satisfy your desire to make good music, and you can afford to upgrade, then it's time to do it. Isn't it really that simple?
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by Bob himself
Re: What Price?
Jayhawk has a point. A good few years back I was playing in an orchestra. The lead cellist was very talented on her instrument. One week we had a visiting conductor who was also a cellist. He borrowed the lead cellists cello to demonstrate how a particular passage should sound and he made her cello sound even better than she could. Her comment was "I never knew it could sound like that!" To a certain extent it's not what you've got or how much it costs that matters, it's what you do with it
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by bowburner
Re: What Price?
Some years ago a professional cellist who was playing a concerto with us had a problem with his bow shortly before he was due on the platform, so he borrowed mine and afterwards thanked me and said it had done an excellent job.
I haven't cleaned that bow since
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by lazyhound
Cheap can be OK
An inexpensive instrument that is set up correctly will sound a lot better than an expensive one that is not. My experience is only with violins which I sell through my web site. It is often the case that the less expensive instruments can sound the best, they may not quite have the speed of response and will not hold their own in the highest treble positions but nevertheless are good buys if set up correctly. So many violins have the sound post in the wrong place, a bridge that is too thick, nut too high and often with old violins small separations that can only be seen by puting a light inside the instrument. All of these faults contribute to a mediocre fiddle.
There is some information covering sound post, bridge, pegs etc. on my web site.
http://www.westcountryviolins.com
Then select the violin care link lower right.
Brian
# Posted on February 7th 2007 by violinman