I'm wondering what the tell tale signs that irish music is modal are. Is it simply that they are not composed within the "classical" major/minor paradigm?
In France, both breton and central france music seems to be mostly major/minor (at any rate, I have only ever heard people speak of major and minor and that seems to be borne out by the fact that I rarely use the c# on my whistle) and I'm wondering why this is...
Oh yeah, I read recently on the francophone irish mailing list something about "modal tunes" having a c# when going up the scale and a cnat when going down... I think that person is confused by the fact that a downward run often occurs at the end of the B part to return to one a different mode or key for the A part?
That C# going up and Cnat coming down is characteristic of the classical melodic minor scale.
For D minor that would be (going up),
D - E - Fnat - G - A - Bnat - C# -D'
and coming down,
D' - Cnat - Bflat - A - G - Fnat - E - D
To confuse matters more there is also the classical harmonic minor scale which is the same going up and down. For D minor that would be,
D - E - Fnat - G - A - Bflat - C# - D'
To understand what mode/scale a tune is using, you need to determine what the tonic or home note or final note is. A lot of tunes end on this note, but many Irish ones do not. So you need to sort of think "If the end of this tune feels like it's asking a question, what note makes it feel complete?" For example, the well known slip jig The Butterfly ends on an A, but the tonic is E.
Next take note of all the notes the tune uses - this tells you what the scale is. There are plenty of good books and websites which list all the scales and modes, so that you can then identify what you have come up with.
At a very basic level, the majority of Irish music uses one of four modes: Ionian - which is exactly the same thing as a major scale, Mixolydian - which is like a major scale with the 7th degree lowered, Dorian - which is like starting on the 2nd degree of a major scale and finishing on the 9th degree, and Aeolian - which is like starting on the 6th degree of a major scale. Except for Ionian/major these three modes have one very obvious thing in common - the last two notes at the top of the scale are a tone apart instead of a semitone apart. This really changes the sound of the scale from what classical music uses, and also the sort of chord progressions that will fit. When most trad musicians talk about a tune being "modal" this is what they mean. A tone at the top of the scale.
You do occasionally find tunes or parts of tunes that contain harmonic/melodic minor passages. Because Irish music has never existed in a vaccum - it has always been influenced by music outside the tradition.
Tirno, re the melodic minor scale - Greensleeves is in a melodic minor key. It's the only tune I know in any tradition that is (anyone know of any others?), and I was quite excited to discover that the melodic minor scale wasn't just something that sadistic piano teachers make their students practice.
Actually, if you're thinking about the 'Greensleeves' often attributed to Henry VIII, it doesn't really use the melodic minor scale - not properly speaking. It is actually heavily 'inflected' with degrees flattened or sharpened neither in accordance with the norm in modal music nor in classical 'melodic minor'. I think there *are* rules, but I'm not sure what they are ... Trevor, you're usually good on this sort of thing?
Isn't the Greensleeves that everybody knows just Ralph Vaughn Williams' take on it? Or is it actually a pre-Ralphite (sorry!) version?
I've come across several very old tunes called Greensleeves, some of which are only distant cousins of the famous tune. I think that's because "greensleeves" used to refer to a dance and the tune could be whatever fit the dance form. Maybe Hank the 8 wrote *a* greensleeves, but not necessarily *the* Greensleeves?
Well, the 'modern' song, with the self-same melody and the very same lyrics was published by printer Richard Jones in 1584, apparently. ... and it was already acknowledged as an 'old' tune, and even then it was supposedly based on an even older one, this version being called at that time 'The New Greensleeves'.
So, I suppose it's kind of old in its own right really. Gosh, I even remember it from when I was a lad!
For the benefit of those whose English history may be a little hazy, the Royal Prerogative I referred to in my previous post would have been exercised by Henry VIII. If that particular monarch said he composed Greensleeves you wouldn't argue the point with him unless you wanted your ghost with its head under its arm to haunt Hampton Court Palace for the next few hundred years
I think Tirno does not necessarily mean individual tunes but the bulk of what is being in played in one country. Most ITM tunes will be modal but some also in a major key. This will probably date them and also show influences of other countries. Think of hornpipes or polkas.
I was told that flamenco tunes tend to be in the dorian mood. Perhaps this points to common European roots.
I used to think that the German tradition was purely major/minor and was iamazed to learn that these keys are rather new-fangled, only going back for around 300 years. So if you go back long enough you will probably end up with a pentatonic scale for all countries in Europe - and the rest of the world.
to add to the fun, itm is also rife with straight conventional "major" tunes, and some straight "minor" (though not as many in the minor category), as well as the more ancient-sounding tunes based on the old pre-church modes. i was in a festival class this summer where an earnest individual obviously oriented towards the pure major harmony paradigm, queried why a model tune we were learning "just didn't sound right." the sound that troubled this gent.......is why i am playing this music. much indian/pakistani classical music is modal. much persian classical, and other middle-eastern, music is modal. klezmer tends to be in the harmonic minor.
oh---and american jazz geniuses such as coltrane and davis, in addition to absorbing early modernist chromaticism, also absorbed and experiemented brilliantly with modal improvisation....."kind of blue," often nominated as the all-time greatest american jazz or any recording, is modal heaven.
Gregorian chant, acc. Wikipedia, had eight modes. I assume these included those used in ITM (as probably did the Celtic chant that the Gregorian superseded). I imagine it was developments in classical and secular music that brought in the modern minor scales and chromaticism, affecting both church music and the treatment of traditional music alike. Church music must sometimes have had some effect on songs and tunes outside, over many centuries of Church dominance in the communities of Ireland and the present UK.
Yep, 8 modes in Gregorian chant right enough. They don't include 2 of the 'modes' generally accepted as being in use in ITM, though - Ionian and Aeolian. And they *do* include some weird ones that would never be used in ITM, like Phrygian. (Please don't tell me there's a tune in Phrygian ...) ... and, thank god, neither Gregorian chant nor ITM includes bloody Locrian ... (No! There isn't!!?!)
how can we tell a tradition is modal
how can we tell a tradition is modal
I'm wondering what the tell tale signs that irish music is modal are. Is it simply that they are not composed within the "classical" major/minor paradigm?
In France, both breton and central france music seems to be mostly major/minor (at any rate, I have only ever heard people speak of major and minor and that seems to be borne out by the fact that I rarely use the c# on my whistle) and I'm wondering why this is...
Oh yeah, I read recently on the francophone irish mailing list something about "modal tunes" having a c# when going up the scale and a cnat when going down... I think that person is confused by the fact that a downward run often occurs at the end of the B part to return to one a different mode or key for the A part?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Tirno
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
That C# going up and Cnat coming down is characteristic of the classical melodic minor scale.
For D minor that would be (going up),
D - E - Fnat - G - A - Bnat - C# -D'
and coming down,
D' - Cnat - Bflat - A - G - Fnat - E - D
To confuse matters more there is also the classical harmonic minor scale which is the same going up and down. For D minor that would be,
D - E - Fnat - G - A - Bflat - C# - D'
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
but there isn't that sort of thing in ITM, right?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Tirno
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
To understand what mode/scale a tune is using, you need to determine what the tonic or home note or final note is. A lot of tunes end on this note, but many Irish ones do not. So you need to sort of think "If the end of this tune feels like it's asking a question, what note makes it feel complete?" For example, the well known slip jig The Butterfly ends on an A, but the tonic is E.
Next take note of all the notes the tune uses - this tells you what the scale is. There are plenty of good books and websites which list all the scales and modes, so that you can then identify what you have come up with.
At a very basic level, the majority of Irish music uses one of four modes: Ionian - which is exactly the same thing as a major scale, Mixolydian - which is like a major scale with the 7th degree lowered, Dorian - which is like starting on the 2nd degree of a major scale and finishing on the 9th degree, and Aeolian - which is like starting on the 6th degree of a major scale. Except for Ionian/major these three modes have one very obvious thing in common - the last two notes at the top of the scale are a tone apart instead of a semitone apart. This really changes the sound of the scale from what classical music uses, and also the sort of chord progressions that will fit. When most trad musicians talk about a tune being "modal" this is what they mean. A tone at the top of the scale.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by kris
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
You do occasionally find tunes or parts of tunes that contain harmonic/melodic minor passages. Because Irish music has never existed in a vaccum - it has always been influenced by music outside the tradition.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by kris
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Tirno, re the melodic minor scale - Greensleeves is in a melodic minor key. It's the only tune I know in any tradition that is (anyone know of any others?), and I was quite excited to discover that the melodic minor scale wasn't just something that sadistic piano teachers make their students practice.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Actually, if you're thinking about the 'Greensleeves' often attributed to Henry VIII, it doesn't really use the melodic minor scale - not properly speaking. It is actually heavily 'inflected' with degrees flattened or sharpened neither in accordance with the norm in modal music nor in classical 'melodic minor'. I think there *are* rules, but I'm not sure what they are ... Trevor, you're usually good on this sort of thing?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Wasn't Greensleeves composed under the Royal Prerogative?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Isn't the Greensleeves that everybody knows just Ralph Vaughn Williams' take on it? Or is it actually a pre-Ralphite (sorry!) version?
I've come across several very old tunes called Greensleeves, some of which are only distant cousins of the famous tune. I think that's because "greensleeves" used to refer to a dance and the tune could be whatever fit the dance form. Maybe Hank the 8 wrote *a* greensleeves, but not necessarily *the* Greensleeves?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Well, the 'modern' song, with the self-same melody and the very same lyrics was published by printer Richard Jones in 1584, apparently. ... and it was already acknowledged as an 'old' tune, and even then it was supposedly based on an even older one, this version being called at that time 'The New Greensleeves'.
So, I suppose it's kind of old in its own right really. Gosh, I even remember it from when I was a lad!
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
For the benefit of those whose English history may be a little hazy, the Royal Prerogative I referred to in my previous post would have been exercised by Henry VIII. If that particular monarch said he composed Greensleeves you wouldn't argue the point with him unless you wanted your ghost with its head under its arm to haunt Hampton Court Palace for the next few hundred years
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
"whose knowledge of English history", I should have said.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
My theory is all forgotten.....but I do remember someone telling me that the song My Lagan Love is an example of one of those modal songs.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
I think Tirno does not necessarily mean individual tunes but the bulk of what is being in played in one country. Most ITM tunes will be modal but some also in a major key. This will probably date them and also show influences of other countries. Think of hornpipes or polkas.
I was told that flamenco tunes tend to be in the dorian mood. Perhaps this points to common European roots.
I used to think that the German tradition was purely major/minor and was iamazed to learn that these keys are rather new-fangled, only going back for around 300 years. So if you go back long enough you will probably end up with a pentatonic scale for all countries in Europe - and the rest of the world.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by kuec
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
to add to the fun, itm is also rife with straight conventional "major" tunes, and some straight "minor" (though not as many in the minor category), as well as the more ancient-sounding tunes based on the old pre-church modes. i was in a festival class this summer where an earnest individual obviously oriented towards the pure major harmony paradigm, queried why a model tune we were learning "just didn't sound right." the sound that troubled this gent.......is why i am playing this music. much indian/pakistani classical music is modal. much persian classical, and other middle-eastern, music is modal. klezmer tends to be in the harmonic minor.
oh---and american jazz geniuses such as coltrane and davis, in addition to absorbing early modernist chromaticism, also absorbed and experiemented brilliantly with modal improvisation....."kind of blue," often nominated as the all-time greatest american jazz or any recording, is modal heaven.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Gregorian chant, acc. Wikipedia, had eight modes. I assume these included those used in ITM (as probably did the Celtic chant that the Gregorian superseded). I imagine it was developments in classical and secular music that brought in the modern minor scales and chromaticism, affecting both church music and the treatment of traditional music alike. Church music must sometimes have had some effect on songs and tunes outside, over many centuries of Church dominance in the communities of Ireland and the present UK.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by nicholas
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Yep, 8 modes in Gregorian chant right enough. They don't include 2 of the 'modes' generally accepted as being in use in ITM, though - Ionian and Aeolian. And they *do* include some weird ones that would never be used in ITM, like Phrygian. (Please don't tell me there's a tune in Phrygian ...) ... and, thank god, neither Gregorian chant nor ITM includes bloody Locrian ... (No! There isn't!!?!)
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Ben, Dow (member #4763) has written and submitted tunes in some of the more obscure modes.
They are:
Two Steps Up (F#phr) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1537
Major Konstant's (Glyd) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1546
Triton's Trident (F#loc) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1558
Have a look at his bio. It must easily be the most informative one on theis website.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Dow's profile can be it's own website.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: how can we tell a tradition is modal
Not just interesting, but actually cool tunes. Dat Dow am some clever dude.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Bob himself