Why are string basses such an unknown element in Irish music? They aren't hated like guitars or bodhrans; people just don't mention them, don't play them, and pretend they don't exist (except for Lunasa, and Lunasa rocks). What would you guys do if an upright bass player came to your session-and I mean a good one, and one who had studied Irish music and worked to fit the instrument in? Would you kick them out or welcome them? What are your own personal policies on string basses?
We had a kid that showed up for a couple of months a few years ago, and did a credible job fitting in. The publican didn't care for it, and I think the kid caught wind of that and didn't feel welcome, and didn't come back. The publican was concerned because "the f***ing thing takes up the space of two payin' customers, for God's sake."
Played well, thay can sound great. However, the main problem is that in a session, people sit down. This puts their head at the same hight as the body of the bass and the sound can be very overwhelming. Also, any bass player will have to lock in with the guitarist, and so you can end up with a horrible discordent mess if they don't lock in harmonicaly.
Another reason is that many bass players come to the music from bluegrass (in my experrience) and so tend to play root and fifth all night, which completly changes the music.
It becomes neither one thing or the other.
It's great fun playing with a bass in a band situation, but for me, I'd prefer not to have one at a session. It changes the music too much. One accompianist at a time, or none at all is my prefered option.
The displacement is definitely an issue, especially sitting around a table.
Interesting that while recording "Across The Pond", the lads came across a bass player in some bar/club and asked him to record with them, although he had never played (or heard!) the music before.
But, what about cellos (celli)?
I've played for dancers with an upright bass behind the rest of us musos, and the big low end helped the dancers hear the beat. For us players, it was unobtrusive enough, and on some tunes sounded great, to my ear.
But I wouldn't want one at every session.
Bowed cello worked nicely at one of our sessions once, but our concertina player complained that the strong vibrations rattled him, physically and mentally.
For Zazz--I like Lunasa too, but their band sound isn't what I'd want to strive for at a session.
Well, you have to find a cellist who's willing to forgo vibrato, for starters. But yes, I kno what you mean. It was fun to experiment with, but I'm glad it's not a regular fixture at our session.
Cello or bass would make for charming counterpoint. But I think it's hardly the kind of thing the average player could improvise, or would have prepared for every tune which pops up in the spontaneous way tunes do in a session. I've never seen either in a trad session... Isn't the cello more the territory of Scottish music?
Cello was indeed fairly common about 150 years ago. There's a bassist who turns up at one of the sessions I go to and always does a cracking job of fitting in. Or occasionally playing the tunes.
If a cellist or violinist can't turn vibrato on or off as required then s/he doesn't know how to do vibrato properly.
The comment in a post above that "The publican was concerned because "the f***ing thing takes up the space of two payin' customers, for God's sake" - applies as much to the cello as to the bass.
The cello, despite appearances, is the mostly easily damaged (and most expensive to repair) of the string family of instruments. This is a major reason why I don't take my cello to a pub session, unless it was a band gig with the band on a stage or similar separate from the punters.
Ah, thedon, don't knock the brass family! In my deep, dark teenage years i used to play euphonium in a local Scottish Country Dance band. But then again, it was Scottish music so i guess the lack of taste is a given...
AND i just remembered the time Rory McLeod played trombone beautifully in a session in the squash courts at the Port Fairy folk festival one year. Mind you, it could've been the fact that all of Lunasa (excpet for trev on the bass..), and Flook were part of the sesh that smoothed the brass-trad divide.
(sigh... oh for the good old days of the squah courts)
Yes, SirNose, I actually remember that you played the euphonium when you were just a wee lad. And that was a cracking session at Port Fairy. And speaking of brass, one of the best nights music I ever saw was in a dingy bar in New Orleans when it was still standing. Members of the Dirty Dozen Brass band and friends playing acousticaly for a dance. I was the only white person in the bar, as it was well away from the french quarter, and it was some of the funkiest music I have ever heard. If their Tuba player ever wants to sit in on any session I'm at, he is more than welcome. Those cats can play.
HEY!!...I think a few of you are being just a little unfair about String Basses...they sound good in sessions if they don't play so loudly that the other higher (screechier...*cough cough*) instruments are drowned out.
Give basses a chance...next time they're at a session with you...welcome them!...they are lovely people (honest!!)...
and as for taking up as much room as two paying customers...well to be quite honest we probably pay as much too...so there!
oh yeah and another thing...can you stop stuffing us in corners please!!...the next time I have to squish into an alcove at the back of a pub somwhere I might just have to kill one of the fiddlers...
We have a guitar player here who is very, very good, and has also played double bass for some decades. It's a great time when he brings his bass, tho that means we'll miss his smart and solid guitar playing... <GG>
There's another fellow who comes to sessions from time to time with an acoustic bass guitar, and he's worked hard ar learning the tunes, so he fits in quite well. Unfortunately, his bass is tough to hear a lot of the time.
I always expect that some bluegrass bassist will come along and try to play in session with us because there are a LOT of bluegrass players around here (Indiana, USA), but that hasn't happened.
I doubt that anyone would be kicked out of a session hereabouts...
Finally, it's really fun to pay attention to Chico Huff's bass playing (ac. bass guitar) on the Solas Reunion DVD.
Never say never. Playing with a good musician, no matter what they play, is always exciting. However, it doesn't mean you have to want to do it all the time. Whatever works for you is alright by me. Grab the moment and enjoy.
I have given this some thought since I first read the thread. I play double doghouse for bluegrass along with a little fiddle. I play flute and a little fiddle for ITM. And that nasty old frame drum too (mainly to make someone else stop). I leave big bertha in the truck unless someone (or several someones) ask for it to come in. Bass is the soul of grass but a little goes a long way with Irish and other celtic music.
I think this goes to the difference across the pond. I have yet to have the privilege of visiting the home of my forefathers but my daughter has and she has told me about the very small pubs and the way things are different. Room is not an issue where we play and we are more general in our music. There is one local session that it strict ITM . I don't go to it because they are sticks in the mud. I go to sessions because I love the music and I want to relax and have fun.
I've heard double doghouse before, they say that at bluegrass festivals all the time. To me, it's always a bass fiddle (another bluegrass term). Didn't even know what a double bass was the first time I heard someone call it that!
String Basses
String Basses
Why are string basses such an unknown element in Irish music? They aren't hated like guitars or bodhrans; people just don't mention them, don't play them, and pretend they don't exist (except for Lunasa, and Lunasa rocks). What would you guys do if an upright bass player came to your session-and I mean a good one, and one who had studied Irish music and worked to fit the instrument in? Would you kick them out or welcome them? What are your own personal policies on string basses?
# Posted on January 17th 2007 by Zazzaliss
Re: String Basses
We had a kid that showed up for a couple of months a few years ago, and did a credible job fitting in. The publican didn't care for it, and I think the kid caught wind of that and didn't feel welcome, and didn't come back. The publican was concerned because "the f***ing thing takes up the space of two payin' customers, for God's sake."
# Posted on January 17th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: String Basses
just for the record, i hate them more than guitars or bodhrans.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by SirNose
Re: String Basses
Played well, thay can sound great. However, the main problem is that in a session, people sit down. This puts their head at the same hight as the body of the bass and the sound can be very overwhelming. Also, any bass player will have to lock in with the guitarist, and so you can end up with a horrible discordent mess if they don't lock in harmonicaly.
Another reason is that many bass players come to the music from bluegrass (in my experrience) and so tend to play root and fifth all night, which completly changes the music.
It becomes neither one thing or the other.
It's great fun playing with a bass in a band situation, but for me, I'd prefer not to have one at a session. It changes the music too much. One accompianist at a time, or none at all is my prefered option.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by woops
Re: String Basses
The displacement is definitely an issue, especially sitting around a table.
Interesting that while recording "Across The Pond", the lads came across a bass player in some bar/club and asked him to record with them, although he had never played (or heard!) the music before.
But, what about cellos (celli)?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: String Basses
I've played for dancers with an upright bass behind the rest of us musos, and the big low end helped the dancers hear the beat. For us players, it was unobtrusive enough, and on some tunes sounded great, to my ear.
But I wouldn't want one at every session.
Bowed cello worked nicely at one of our sessions once, but our concertina player complained that the strong vibrations rattled him, physically and mentally.
For Zazz--I like Lunasa too, but their band sound isn't what I'd want to strive for at a session.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: String Basses
SirNose, don't tell me you play one of those as well?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by woops
Re: String Basses
I love the cello. It's one of the richest instruments around. Can't stand it in ITM as it turns it into semi chamber music to my ears.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by woops
Re: String Basses
Well, you have to find a cellist who's willing to forgo vibrato, for starters. But yes, I kno what you mean. It was fun to experiment with, but I'm glad it's not a regular fixture at our session.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: String Basses
Cello or bass would make for charming counterpoint. But I think it's hardly the kind of thing the average player could improvise, or would have prepared for every tune which pops up in the spontaneous way tunes do in a session. I've never seen either in a trad session... Isn't the cello more the territory of Scottish music?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by gravelwalks
Re: String Basses
Cello was indeed fairly common about 150 years ago. There's a bassist who turns up at one of the sessions I go to and always does a cracking job of fitting in. Or occasionally playing the tunes.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Andy V
Re: String Basses
Just shows there are no hard and fast rules. Played well, and with knowledge of the music, lot's of things can work.
Now, where did I put my sousaphone?
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by woops
Re: String Basses
If a cellist or violinist can't turn vibrato on or off as required then s/he doesn't know how to do vibrato properly.
The comment in a post above that "The publican was concerned because "the f***ing thing takes up the space of two payin' customers, for God's sake" - applies as much to the cello as to the bass.
The cello, despite appearances, is the mostly easily damaged (and most expensive to repair) of the string family of instruments. This is a major reason why I don't take my cello to a pub session, unless it was a band gig with the band on a stage or similar separate from the punters.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: String Basses
Right, Trevor. Such cellists do exist. And lots of others, however well trained, still want to "sweeten" every note. Violinists too.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: String Basses
Ah, thedon, don't knock the brass family! In my deep, dark teenage years i used to play euphonium in a local Scottish Country Dance band. But then again, it was Scottish music so i guess the lack of taste is a given...
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by SirNose
Re: String Basses
AND i just remembered the time Rory McLeod played trombone beautifully in a session in the squash courts at the Port Fairy folk festival one year. Mind you, it could've been the fact that all of Lunasa (excpet for trev on the bass..), and Flook were part of the sesh that smoothed the brass-trad divide.
(sigh... oh for the good old days of the squah courts)
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by SirNose
Re: String Basses
Yes, SirNose, I actually remember that you played the euphonium when you were just a wee lad. And that was a cracking session at Port Fairy. And speaking of brass, one of the best nights music I ever saw was in a dingy bar in New Orleans when it was still standing. Members of the Dirty Dozen Brass band and friends playing acousticaly for a dance. I was the only white person in the bar, as it was well away from the french quarter, and it was some of the funkiest music I have ever heard. If their Tuba player ever wants to sit in on any session I'm at, he is more than welcome. Those cats can play.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by woops
Re: String Basses
HEY!!...I think a few of you are being just a little unfair about String Basses...they sound good in sessions if they don't play so loudly that the other higher (screechier...*cough cough*) instruments are drowned out.
Give basses a chance...next time they're at a session with you...welcome them!...they are lovely people (honest!!)...
and as for taking up as much room as two paying customers...well to be quite honest we probably pay as much too...so there!
oh yeah and another thing...can you stop stuffing us in corners please!!...the next time I have to squish into an alcove at the back of a pub somwhere I might just have to kill one of the fiddlers...
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by MeddlingMinstrel
Re: String Basses
We have a guitar player here who is very, very good, and has also played double bass for some decades. It's a great time when he brings his bass, tho that means we'll miss his smart and solid guitar playing... <GG>
There's another fellow who comes to sessions from time to time with an acoustic bass guitar, and he's worked hard ar learning the tunes, so he fits in quite well. Unfortunately, his bass is tough to hear a lot of the time.
I always expect that some bluegrass bassist will come along and try to play in session with us because there are a LOT of bluegrass players around here (Indiana, USA), but that hasn't happened.
I doubt that anyone would be kicked out of a session hereabouts...
Finally, it's really fun to pay attention to Chico Huff's bass playing (ac. bass guitar) on the Solas Reunion DVD.
stv
http://cdbaby.com/Culchies
http://cdbaby.com/Lopers
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by stv culchie
Re: String Basses
Never say never. Playing with a good musician, no matter what they play, is always exciting. However, it doesn't mean you have to want to do it all the time. Whatever works for you is alright by me. Grab the moment and enjoy.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by woops
Re: String Basses
I have given this some thought since I first read the thread. I play double doghouse for bluegrass along with a little fiddle. I play flute and a little fiddle for ITM. And that nasty old frame drum too (mainly to make someone else stop). I leave big bertha in the truck unless someone (or several someones) ask for it to come in. Bass is the soul of grass but a little goes a long way with Irish and other celtic music.
I think this goes to the difference across the pond. I have yet to have the privilege of visiting the home of my forefathers but my daughter has and she has told me about the very small pubs and the way things are different. Room is not an issue where we play and we are more general in our music. There is one local session that it strict ITM . I don't go to it because they are sticks in the mud. I go to sessions because I love the music and I want to relax and have fun.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by mother
Re: String Basses
"double doghouse"???
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: String Basses
I always thought "bull fiddle" was anthropomorphic enough!
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: String Basses
I've heard double doghouse before, they say that at bluegrass festivals all the time. To me, it's always a bass fiddle (another bluegrass term). Didn't even know what a double bass was the first time I heard someone call it that!
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by kennedy
Re: String Basses
doghouse is the term us hillbillys use to refer to our 3/4 upright accoustic bass. we think a bass fiddle is a viola .
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by mother