Where do you personally draw the line about wanting to have a friendly inclusive session and maintaining a standard of playing that you worked so hard to achieve?
What I'm trying to say is - if you spend your entire being playing tunes and thats all you do - is it ok if someone comes along half willie nilly and playes whatever badly....is that ok? Personally I dont think so........
Whoa-ho! Here we go again, and it's only January 2nd. bb, the last time I tried to say something similar I got crucified (but maintained my position, I believe.) Remember this old thread? 2nd longest one of all time, I think:
I think that the important thing is compromise in a session. If you have a few tunes that everyone can play then you'll find that others find it more acceptable for hardcore players to play harder tunes at a higher standard. If the right balance is maintained then everyone's happy, and it stops the eliteism and cliqueyness that puts so many off folk music. Naturally the alternative is to split sessions according to standards, but that can be off putting to players who want to improve - and I've always found that I improve the most when I'm with players who are better than me. Its all a question of balance.
If you "spend your entire being playing tunes, and that's *all you do* " then I'd suggest that a pub session is not really the place for you, especially if you feel that players who commit less of their being to playing, and do other things as well, will ruin *your* session. MAybe you'd be better of wih private gatherings.
Once you open those pub doors, you have to live with whatever comes through them, to some extent. There's not *line* to draw, it's a judgement thing on the night. Clever session anchors can manipulate things to some extent so that everyone thinks they are getting a fair go . It's a social skill, which perhaps many musicians lack.
Beebs, if you don`t want beginners to join in and spoil your tunes, just play obscure tunes they`re not going to know, and hog the tunes all night and they`ll probably go home not having played a single tune with you. It`s easily enough done, but is that really what you want from a session?
An open session should be open,and fun.Anyone can come along and play whatever they like,it doesn't worry me.Sessions can get a bit predictable.There's nothing worse than a session full of po-faced people playing as though it was a solemn,onerous duty.
Mutual respect can do wonders, and it goes in both directions. If you live in an area with lots of public sessions available then different ones can emphasize different playing levels, tune selections, playing styles etc. But if your area only has one or two sessions going then they might need to be a little more inclusive and accommodating of advanced, intermediate and novice players alike. If any of these different levels of players attempt to dominate the session it will be met with resentment and disappointment. Mutual respect will allow everyone their chance to enjoy the gathering.
Mutual respect will also allow a community of ITM aficionados to have independent sessions that emphasize different levels and playing styles. Personally, I think having different sessions for different levels is a good approach, but I don't think players need to exclude themselves from either because of the distinction as it relates to their own abilities. Players with more experience can enjoy mid-level sessions as much as advanced ones as long as they understand and appreciate the difference. The same goes for the players with less experience. They will benefit from being at the more advanced sessions as either participants or listeners as long as they respect the emphasis and don't expect the advanced players to cater to them.
But that's thinking in idealistic terms assuming that everyone will understand and appreciate this. The sad reality is that people will be people. There will be novice players that will think the more experienced players are snobs, and more advanced players that will think they own the music and the lesser players should sit back and enjoy their brilliance. This is planet Earth after all; we're talking about the human race here remember.
When we have this discussion (will we ever learn? I hope not!)
Barry says the important thing is compromise. That will be true, but I think it is equally important to have a clear remit. (Even if it is to have no remit.) Often in a pub situation this is impossible because the publican wants you to bring in business and be "friendly". Some sessions are total free for alls - and some people like it that way. Most any kind of music on most any kind of instrument and most levels of ability are welcome. But there is nothing wrong with having much narrower perameters if those who run the session want it and are clear about it. There is room for beginners sessions, Eb sessions or sessions where everyone plays either flute of fiddle in the Sligo style, if there is a place to have it and people who want to attend, knowing what the common idea is.
The trouble (for me) is that most sessions grow up in a vague sort of way where the originators may have a common idea at first, but perhaps it is just understood at the time. The session is then free to be hijacked or cluttered up by all sorts of influences and personalities that make people uncomfortable, and nobody is sure how to deal with it. If you are interested in it as a social experiment, or mainly for the drink, it doesn't matter that much. If you are deeply into your music......well.....good luck!
I think that as a brilliant player (I checked out your clip on youtube) you should be able to help them turn whatever they are playing so badly into a grand tune to be listened to and give them some encouragement and support into the bargain. If you think there is a problem with their playing then tell them gently always be constructive and friendly. I believe an important standard to be maintained in any session environment is one of joy and fun. As one of the leading musicians you have the power to make a session joyous or traumatic for a less talented player.
I thought I'd wait a bit and see how this one went ... and then join in, strongly, on whatever side was losing.
'Cos it does seem to me this one requires 'sides'. But I, and lots of others I suspect, could be on either one.
The truth is, sessions vary wildly, and sometimes they're brilliant because everyone in the session is playing really well, and sometimes they're rubbish because nobody is, and sometimes because some people are just useless ... and sometimes they're great because some beginner or other has a lovely simple approach that makes me think of the tune(s) all over again.
I go home after sessions sometimes in despair and other times in a mood of exhilaration. What can you do? I suspect you can't have the one without the other.
Pretty much everyone that comes to most sessions I attend can count on at least a couple of sets being played at their pace, even if they are beginners and they only know a few polkas or waltzes, or if they are expert and want to play more obscure stuff. But if they demand that the session adapt to what they know for set after set, and it is beginner stuff, or conversely, stuff no one else knows, then they can expect a cold shoulder. Both beginners and experts can hijack a session!
It is not a clear line, but we try to err on the side of inclusiveness, unless that inclusiveness cuts off others in the circle for too long a period.
It is all about balance..........
I go for inclusiveness.
If you're too good for some of the people who've come along, then you've forgotten what it was like to be a beginner, all enthusiasm and no skill or repertoire. That's the time to find your own session.
This is simple. If someone is poor, and worse still, putting everyone else off, well something needs to be done. A poor fiddler, flautist, a guitar not playing in time, or an imitation bodhran player and the damage they can cause, well, something needs to be said.
On the other hand, someone who knows say ten sets of tunes should be encouraged. They can join in on the sets they know, and accept advice and tips on the stuff new to them. Obviously playing with more advanced players will benefit in the long run.
I run a session and recently CHANGED the rules. After 2 years of being wide open I couldn't take what we evolved into. We basically were open free loving and all that happy crap, but nobody respected basic session etiquette. People would noodle and play over tunes they never heard before, loudly too. We sounded like a drunken ceili band that lost it's way. The better players had stopped coming months earlier. One night we were visited by an All Ireland flute player. We sounded just as bad and totally drowned her out. That was when I had became finally ready to resuce the session. It was tough. I was going to strip it down to just a gig with 2 or 3 people. But I after a lot of research on the matter I decided to limit the chairs to 8 and set 2 basic rules:
1. If you don't know the tune-don't play or noodle.
2. If you DO know the tune play on time , listen carefully to the session leaders.
So I didn't limit anyone from coming and the session is rebuilding with promising results. Also, in my area, there are 2 huge begginers/int. sessions on the 2 preceeding nights. So nobody is being denied really.
I was wavering and worried about folks thinking I was a total jerk, so I did the best I could, and quite a few people also reminded me that it was MY session and I should run it the way I want. That was a foreign concept to me, I always thought in terms of us, but in the end someone has to take the helm and make the hard decisions. Surprisingly there are a lot of people out there that think there are no rule sin music. Not true.
I have a question for you BB. Can you remember when you were a beginner? As far as I can tell, no one springs forth as a fully-formed master fiddler from their mother's womb. How did other musicians to treat you when you were a beginner or an intermediate player? Did they shun you? Did they tell you that you weren't welcome?
I'll let bb answer that one herself, but it brings up an important point. Yes, we were all beginners once. I was definitely one, and I was guilty of noodling here and there. I only wish I could go back in time and rework my behavior so I won't be so embarrassed about it now when I think back to the early days.
It's difficult to know what it's like to play tunes in a session and have beginners nearby noodling or trying to play something way above their level until you yourself become experienced and proficient and then have it happen to you. This forum allows us to express that to beginners in hopes that they might have a chance to think about what effect they might have on sessions before they go. I only wish I had something like this website back when I was trying to figure it all out at first… would have spared me tons of embarrassment later.
I'm a beginner and my first reaction to this was horror, because I find most sessions intimidating anyway, because I don't have the repertoire and are only just on my feet with my instrument skills. But thinking about it, I guess I'd prefer to know up front that this session is advanced and beginners are only welcome to a back stall or to watch, rather than have the far worse mortification of a slow realisation that you are intruding...that would probably have me not try to play in a session again for months!.
I guess it's about perceived rejection. Dr Julian Short a brilliant psychologist in a great little book 'An Intelligent Life' wrote that the reason that ALL people react to perceived rejection with fear (and therefore consequently with either anger [fight] or mortification and flee) is because at one stage in our human evolution, social rejection would have meant our death. So it always feels really really bad. Which is why we both dislike rejecting others and being rejected ourselves. So, I guess, I'd prefer people to be as honest as they can, as well as kind! Especially since it is the belonging and community that is generated by this music that is its strongest appeal to many people.
Hey - hold your horses and put down your torches. I said NOTHING about beginners at all. What I was referring to was more people who arent beginners who take over sessions, hijack sets and think they are actually way better than they are. Beginner or person who has been playing many years...either way.....
I remember this one session in Miltown Malbay where there was a session with Siobhan Peoples, Murty Ryan, Tola Custy etc etc - I knew that I wouldnt actually be able to bring anything to that session...so I sat at the bar and listened all night and had a great time without playing. What I really want to know is why it is so hard for some people to enjoy a session that is above their skill level without actually bringing out their insturments....that is what I mean.
There was another time where I got paid to do a session in London, because I didnt know anyone there I wasnt sure who else was being paid or who the regulars were, There was a chap there who started almost every set, hijacked sets all night - he was classically trained and was obviously of the 'I'm too cool for school and dont need to do anything to my playing to play trad group'. I thought he was paid to do the session. Then these two little girls sat down and started playing tunes - maybe they were 9 and 11 - one playing the Uillean pipes - and they were brilliant. This chap leans over and said loudly 'Dont worry girls, with a lot of hard work you'll be good someday too' - What?? What]? Are you serious - you cant acutually play and you say that to these two amazing girls,....are you joking me?
That is what I mean - Not beginners not being able to play but people who dont put effort into playing and think that for some reason they have a right to any session on any night at any time with anyone even if they bring nothing to the session and actually damage the session.
And just for the record - anyone on this site who thinks that I think that I'm good has no idea - I struggle eveyday with my playing - It upsets me most days and most days I get so frustrated with my playing I just dont bother practising - its a vicious circle. But thats ok - its all part of learning. I want to be at a certain level - I am not there by a Looooongggg shot. So do I remember what it is like to be a begginer?? Yes - everyday - especially when in ireland and hanging out with the lads playing tunes.
CurvyFiddle, would you expect to walk into a cafe as a novice chess player where folks are playing at a high level and sit down to play someone who is far more experienced? My guess is that you would watch for a while and try to determine if there are any players at your level before you sat down to play. Now I'm not suggesting that playing ITM is like playing chess, but I think you get the drift.
If you walk into a pub where a session is you want to do the same thing though -- listen and see what level they're playing at. If it seems like it's within your abilities -- ask if you can join. There's nothing to be afraid of -- it's just people getting together to play tunes. But for everyone to continue having a good time you want to be sure you don't interfere with the flow.
Most musicians you encounter will be friendly and will no doubt insist you join them regardless of your level. This is great, but all you have to do is be sure you don’t expect them to change the session to accommodate you too much from what they were doing before you got there. They'll ask you to start tunes you know here and there, but not every tune, and don't try to play tunes you don't know. Don't worry about sitting and listening because you won't be judged for tunes you don't know -- unless you start noodling audibly. Just enjoy the tunes, new friends and you're on your way.
~~~
Disclaimer: I’m not talking about anyone here’s session, but rather the ones I’ve seen, participated in, or anchored myself.
Yes, bb, I see what you mean. I think it's common sense that you're talking about here. When I visit someone else's session I feel more like a passenger on the bus rather than the driver and I start very few tunes... and usually only when asked. I've seen people that come to sessions with some sort of errant assumption that whomever can p*ss higher on the wall gets to start all the tunes regardless of who’s anchoring or hosting. These are the sort that are likely to make disparaging comments to young players, like in your example.
I want to second Kris' point: a clear remit is the key. If the session is a free-for-all, or if there is no real leadership (whether "official" or through force of musicianship and/or personality) then we must accept and enjoy whatever comes, or stop attending. If, however, there is a policy, it should be made clear (somehow - I know that can be the hard bit), otherwise people will go through the experience Curvy describes: the " mortification of a slow realisation that you are intruding".
On another point, while I agree with AlBrown that both beginners and experts can hijack a session, I am uneasy about: "...beginners and they only know a few polkas...". It verges horribly close to the brink of suggesting that polkas are beginners tunes!
I get the feeling sometimes that "some" beginners regard a session as another way of practicing tunes, instead of learning the tunes to a reasonable standard at home first.
Personally I don't play in sessions to practice . . I do it for the buzz . . which every once in a while . . when you get the "buzz" (when every ones on the ball and playing as one) . . its the best feeling there is .
This argument often comes back to someone trying to prick your conscience with the "Oh, we all started off as beginners, don't you remember?" line.
Yes, I know bb has clearly stated she didn't mean beginners, just mediochre players who dominate for one reason or another. But the same rationale applies. If you are intermediate to advanced at your instrument, and you admit on here that you would rather do without such personna at your session, you may well get accused of snobbery. So much for good old fashioned being honest.
So, if you go along to your local session and it has of late fallen off a bit because of one or two loud but relatively mundane players who churn out the same sets every week, thus putting off local good players, it's ok to just roll over and accept it?
From a purely detached viewpoint novice players can be useful at sessions for the following - as they learn 'blind', so to speak, unpolluted by current trends in sets etc, they sometimes unearth little gems more experienced players may have overlooked. So I can assure you I am not an anti-beginner snob, or even an anti-plodder snob. I have no reason to be as I'm just a session player on flute and a learner myself on box. But it is good when you're at a session where you feel you don't have to cater for either of those. Inclusivity is all very well if you can get out more than twice a week to sessions - but if you have a family, and get out usually just once a week then that time is precious and inclusivity is a luxury of time I and some other players I know cannot afford.
You are right The Phantom Button, which is why as a beginner I've never started a tune at a session. I go, watch, listen, learn, and occasionally, when one of the old hands has asked me at the bar which tunes I've learned, and then announces he is going to play one of them slowly so the beginners can join in, I've joined in. And in watching and listening I've observed EXACTLY what bb is talking about....sessions hijacked by the mediocre but egomaniacal ....who tend also to be the worst offenders at the rolling eyes and 'attitude' when accommodating anyone else. The really good players tend to be welcoming, encouraging and unassuming - so I guess it makes it hard for them to bring the hijackers to heel!
I envy you lot across the pond who "only" have to worry about mediocrity or boorishness from some players. Here in the States we also have to contend with the fact that many don't understand that an ITM session should consist at least mostly of Irish music.
Here you have Bluegrass , Old Timey, Contra Dance style etc., as well as the odd singer-songwriter trying to highjack sessions. All of these are fine, legitimate styles of music in their own right, but there are "other places you can go for that" as I once heard Dennis Cahill remark when someone suggested playing some Highland Scots style tunes in an Irish session.
Ahhh yes there's that darn conscience rearing its head again. (Why won't it stop pricking us!!) Dismissing those pesky beginners is like berating the poor after you've come into money. I'd just say that we should all remember where we've come from.
"I envy you lot across the pond who "only" have to worry about mediocrity or boorishness from some players. Here in the States we also have to contend with the fact that many don't understand that an ITM session should consist at least mostly of Irish music."
Tim, that is a myth if there ever was one. I have been to "Irish" sessions where people playing Northumbrian tunes have completely hijacked it. I've been to sessions where they played such a mixture of Irish, Scottish, English, Northumbrian tunes that the session had no coherence or connection. Went to a session in London where the guitar player started belting Paul Simon tunes and other stuff I didn't recognize but certainly wasn't Irish. The British Isles are not this utopic place where everyone has a deep understanding of the tradition. You'll find plenty of players there who "don't get it" as you find in the States, just as you find plenty who do "get it."
Have had better sessions in Boulder than some of the ones I have been to in England. Have also had some fantastic sessions over there. No place is exempt from the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Hey David - I am not gloating, but rather - I've realised that I really enjoy watching cricket - just as we are losing two of our best too retirement! My brother came up and we watched the last two rounds or whatever they are called - the five day thingys and then he was explaining how it all works and I really got into it! Oh dear.....
I am sad not to be in Wales with you lads, I am way jealous but hope you all have a really good time.
bb, your playing actually *upsets* you most days? Are you serious? I've seen you post that you dislike your own playing, and dismissed it at first, but I've seen your YouTube clip and there's a definite disconnect there. Are you only going to be happy when you can play as well as Tommy Peoples? It seems to me that you're missing out on a lot of enjoyment that you could be having right now.
"Tim, that is a myth if there ever was one. I have been to "Irish" sessions where people playing Northumbrian tunes have completely hijacked it. I've been to sessions where they played such a mixture of Irish, Scottish, English, Northumbrian tunes that the session had no coherence or connection. "
Are Irish sessions advertised as such? Is anything wrong with a session that is just a group of people getting together for a drink, a chat and a few tunes? I think that's enough coherence and connection...........
mehere - coming back to my earier point on remit....
There is nothing wrong with a session being a mixture of traditions, if that is what the core players in that session intend. If that is what they intend, then they would be smarter in the long run to make those intentions clear. As would those who prefer an Irish music session.
Like Silver Spear, I struggle with finding coherence in a lot of sessions that mix traditions. At times I struggle with this in my own somewhat schizophrenic Scots/Irish repertoire, too. Call me compartmentalised, but I tend not to mix the two repertoires very much - generally even playing them on two quite different accordions.
The fact that I don't like mixing things up in this way doesn't mean I am putting a value judgement on people who do. However, I get frustrated when those who want to mix it up cry "exclusive b**tards" when they encounter a session that has a more specific agenda.
As for the rest - most session players need to learn to play less and listen more.
"the maniac" - I did chuckle. But I have to agree with you, michael, and I take it your views, which I recall more or less concurred with mine on that thread, haven't changed either.
I dont think there is necessarily anything wrong with trying to be really good. It gives me an aim in life and keeps me out of trouble (mostly).
Yes llig I agree -but somehow until I get the answer that I need I'm going to keep on posting these stupid questions, As you are probably aware this is not the first time I posted this particular bitch and it prob wont be the last.
So would you be willing to inicate *specifically* who you feel has "come along half willie nilly and played whatever badly" at, say Kelly's? Or must we all just examine our own consciences?
Nothing wrong with trying to be good, or better than you are. We all do that (well maybe not all---I do, anyway). What I'm talking about is not being able to enjoy where you are right now. Being *upset* with your playing when you've been playing 11 years and you play beautifully. I can't imagine that you never say to yourself "hmm, I did okay on that tune, it sounded pretty good" and just take pleasure in hearing something pretty and know that you're making it happen. There's a lot more enjoyment in that than thinking "my triplets weren't crisp enough, that sounded like crap, I'm really upset" or whatever it is that you're thinking.
I'm not saying ignore the things you want to improve. I do think that many of us are much too hard on ourselves, though, and it sucks a lot of fun out of life and makes us into negative unhappy people.
So cheer up, bb. Try to play at least one tune a night where you promise yourself that you'll only focus on what you like, and that you'll tell yourself that you like it. With the way you play, it shouldn't be hard to do!
Actually - I was referring more to the sessions I used to go to in galway. Where there would be a set of amazing musicians but sometimes someone would turn up (different people - not just one) who kind of scared me. Like this one guy who played the bodhran with his hand until it bled and it just kept bleeding and he got blood everywhere. Or this one time this lady turned up and held the bodhran up next to her head and proceed to beat it with a stick all night - really weird. Thats more what I'm talking about - I amnt talking about people who like trad and play it - I'm talking about people who obviously just dont care. Like its obvious they have never sat down and listened to trad - but it doesnt worry them - they just try and play it anyway.
Not anything about bodhrans by the way - just happens that they are two stories that spring to mind.
There was also this lady who sat next to me once a started tweetying on the whistle - not playing a tune and not even in the right key or anything - kind of making stuff up. I asked her did she have any tunes and she replied that she didnt like playing tunes but that she preferred to play around the melody. Not realising that it was really off putting and just plain rude to boot. She was loud, in the wrong key and tring to back on a whistle. I'm sorry if people find it offensive that that kind of thing drives me nuts - but really.......
In my small experience, that kind of thing happens more in Ireland. On the one hand, is it not one of the charms of the Irish character that there can be a willingness to accept the chaotic and absurd that life throws up? And on the other hand, part of Irish community-pub culture involves an expectation that everybody brings something to the party and has to perform their piece. So when shy Kathleen Kingston (O'Brien as she was) is called on, and has only a half-remembered and out-of-tune version of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" to offer, she must and will still perform - and everybody is happy. She participated in the community activity. But I don't want to over-romanticize it, just suggest why there may be a willingness to accept that kind of thing.
There was a guy who lived for a year or so in a yurt near the house I had in Cork. He had a couple of whistles, but felt that music should be a spontaneous expression of the soul, untrammeled by fixed tunes. When he went to the local session (which wasn't often, thankfully) he would not only noodle, he would even do solos consisting of spontaneous warbling. Nobody clapped, nobody said "Good man", and nobody bought him a beer. Perhaps it would have been kinder if someone had firmly said to him "That's not what this is about", but then the newagers would have wanted to revolt.
I should add that many of the unexpected things that happened at that sort of session were extraordinary experiences that it would have been sad to miss. What do do, eh?
I'm reminded of the antics of Timber Tony with the knife in his wooded leg and all that craicl. This anecdote and others similar to the ones BTooter describes can be found on this thread.
Standard of sessions
Standard of sessions
Where do you personally draw the line about wanting to have a friendly inclusive session and maintaining a standard of playing that you worked so hard to achieve?
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Standard of sessions
What I'm trying to say is - if you spend your entire being playing tunes and thats all you do - is it ok if someone comes along half willie nilly and playes whatever badly....is that ok? Personally I dont think so........
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Standard of sessions
Whoa-ho! Here we go again, and it's only January 2nd. bb, the last time I tried to say something similar I got crucified (but maintained my position, I believe.) Remember this old thread? 2nd longest one of all time, I think:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7902
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Standard of sessions
I think that the important thing is compromise in a session. If you have a few tunes that everyone can play then you'll find that others find it more acceptable for hardcore players to play harder tunes at a higher standard. If the right balance is maintained then everyone's happy, and it stops the eliteism and cliqueyness that puts so many off folk music. Naturally the alternative is to split sessions according to standards, but that can be off putting to players who want to improve - and I've always found that I improve the most when I'm with players who are better than me. Its all a question of balance.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by barrysmith90
Re: Standard of sessions
If you "spend your entire being playing tunes, and that's *all you do* " then I'd suggest that a pub session is not really the place for you, especially if you feel that players who commit less of their being to playing, and do other things as well, will ruin *your* session. MAybe you'd be better of wih private gatherings.
Once you open those pub doors, you have to live with whatever comes through them, to some extent. There's not *line* to draw, it's a judgement thing on the night. Clever session anchors can manipulate things to some extent so that everyone thinks they are getting a fair go . It's a social skill, which perhaps many musicians lack.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Bren
Re: Standard of sessions
Beebs, if you don`t want beginners to join in and spoil your tunes, just play obscure tunes they`re not going to know, and hog the tunes all night and they`ll probably go home not having played a single tune with you. It`s easily enough done, but is that really what you want from a session?
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Standard of sessions
Yes.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Standard of sessions
(naw not really. Just the first wind-up of the year
)
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Standard of sessions
......... this is only going to end in tears !
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by domnull
Re: Standard of sessions
as it did the last time
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Standard of sessions
An open session should be open,and fun.Anyone can come along and play whatever they like,it doesn't worry me.Sessions can get a bit predictable.There's nothing worse than a session full of po-faced people playing as though it was a solemn,onerous duty.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by dafydd
Re: Standard of sessions
yes there is - one full of people who can't play.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Standard of sessions
There's a session even worse than the one you describe KML . . that is a session were one half CAN play , and the other half CAN'T . .
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Justintime
Re: Standard of sessions
Oh, to put things straight . . I'm in the first half . .
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Justintime
Re: Standard of sessions
Mutual respect can do wonders, and it goes in both directions. If you live in an area with lots of public sessions available then different ones can emphasize different playing levels, tune selections, playing styles etc. But if your area only has one or two sessions going then they might need to be a little more inclusive and accommodating of advanced, intermediate and novice players alike. If any of these different levels of players attempt to dominate the session it will be met with resentment and disappointment. Mutual respect will allow everyone their chance to enjoy the gathering.
Mutual respect will also allow a community of ITM aficionados to have independent sessions that emphasize different levels and playing styles. Personally, I think having different sessions for different levels is a good approach, but I don't think players need to exclude themselves from either because of the distinction as it relates to their own abilities. Players with more experience can enjoy mid-level sessions as much as advanced ones as long as they understand and appreciate the difference. The same goes for the players with less experience. They will benefit from being at the more advanced sessions as either participants or listeners as long as they respect the emphasis and don't expect the advanced players to cater to them.
But that's thinking in idealistic terms assuming that everyone will understand and appreciate this. The sad reality is that people will be people. There will be novice players that will think the more experienced players are snobs, and more advanced players that will think they own the music and the lesser players should sit back and enjoy their brilliance. This is planet Earth after all; we're talking about the human race here remember.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Standard of sessions
..... but the tears were useful for washing the blood off the walls.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by showaddydadito
Re: Standard of sessions
When we have this discussion (will we ever learn? I hope not!)
Barry says the important thing is compromise. That will be true, but I think it is equally important to have a clear remit. (Even if it is to have no remit.) Often in a pub situation this is impossible because the publican wants you to bring in business and be "friendly". Some sessions are total free for alls - and some people like it that way. Most any kind of music on most any kind of instrument and most levels of ability are welcome. But there is nothing wrong with having much narrower perameters if those who run the session want it and are clear about it. There is room for beginners sessions, Eb sessions or sessions where everyone plays either flute of fiddle in the Sligo style, if there is a place to have it and people who want to attend, knowing what the common idea is.
The trouble (for me) is that most sessions grow up in a vague sort of way where the originators may have a common idea at first, but perhaps it is just understood at the time. The session is then free to be hijacked or cluttered up by all sorts of influences and personalities that make people uncomfortable, and nobody is sure how to deal with it. If you are interested in it as a social experiment, or mainly for the drink, it doesn't matter that much. If you are deeply into your music......well.....good luck!
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by kris
Re: Standard of sessions
I think that as a brilliant player (I checked out your clip on youtube) you should be able to help them turn whatever they are playing so badly into a grand tune to be listened to and give them some encouragement and support into the bargain. If you think there is a problem with their playing then tell them gently always be constructive and friendly. I believe an important standard to be maintained in any session environment is one of joy and fun. As one of the leading musicians you have the power to make a session joyous or traumatic for a less talented player.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by flossie
Re: Standard of sessions
I thought I'd wait a bit and see how this one went ... and then join in, strongly, on whatever side was losing.
'Cos it does seem to me this one requires 'sides'. But I, and lots of others I suspect, could be on either one.
The truth is, sessions vary wildly, and sometimes they're brilliant because everyone in the session is playing really well, and sometimes they're rubbish because nobody is, and sometimes because some people are just useless ... and sometimes they're great because some beginner or other has a lovely simple approach that makes me think of the tune(s) all over again.
I go home after sessions sometimes in despair and other times in a mood of exhilaration. What can you do? I suspect you can't have the one without the other.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Standard of sessions
Pretty much everyone that comes to most sessions I attend can count on at least a couple of sets being played at their pace, even if they are beginners and they only know a few polkas or waltzes, or if they are expert and want to play more obscure stuff. But if they demand that the session adapt to what they know for set after set, and it is beginner stuff, or conversely, stuff no one else knows, then they can expect a cold shoulder. Both beginners and experts can hijack a session!
It is not a clear line, but we try to err on the side of inclusiveness, unless that inclusiveness cuts off others in the circle for too long a period.
It is all about balance..........
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Standard of sessions
I go for inclusiveness.
If you're too good for some of the people who've come along, then you've forgotten what it was like to be a beginner, all enthusiasm and no skill or repertoire. That's the time to find your own session.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Standard of sessions
This is simple. If someone is poor, and worse still, putting everyone else off, well something needs to be done. A poor fiddler, flautist, a guitar not playing in time, or an imitation bodhran player and the damage they can cause, well, something needs to be said.
On the other hand, someone who knows say ten sets of tunes should be encouraged. They can join in on the sets they know, and accept advice and tips on the stuff new to them. Obviously playing with more advanced players will benefit in the long run.
There.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Standard of sessions
I run a session and recently CHANGED the rules. After 2 years of being wide open I couldn't take what we evolved into. We basically were open free loving and all that happy crap, but nobody respected basic session etiquette. People would noodle and play over tunes they never heard before, loudly too. We sounded like a drunken ceili band that lost it's way. The better players had stopped coming months earlier. One night we were visited by an All Ireland flute player. We sounded just as bad and totally drowned her out. That was when I had became finally ready to resuce the session. It was tough. I was going to strip it down to just a gig with 2 or 3 people. But I after a lot of research on the matter I decided to limit the chairs to 8 and set 2 basic rules:
1. If you don't know the tune-don't play or noodle.
2. If you DO know the tune play on time , listen carefully to the session leaders.
So I didn't limit anyone from coming and the session is rebuilding with promising results. Also, in my area, there are 2 huge begginers/int. sessions on the 2 preceeding nights. So nobody is being denied really.
I was wavering and worried about folks thinking I was a total jerk, so I did the best I could, and quite a few people also reminded me that it was MY session and I should run it the way I want. That was a foreign concept to me, I always thought in terms of us, but in the end someone has to take the helm and make the hard decisions. Surprisingly there are a lot of people out there that think there are no rule sin music. Not true.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by saltcast
Re: Standard of sessions
Careful, saltcast... you're going to get the pro-noodling gang up in arms. They'll be coming after you with torches and pitchforks.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Standard of sessions
...and bodhrans and hamonicas....
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by saltcast
Re: Standard of sessions
I have a question for you BB. Can you remember when you were a beginner? As far as I can tell, no one springs forth as a fully-formed master fiddler from their mother's womb. How did other musicians to treat you when you were a beginner or an intermediate player? Did they shun you? Did they tell you that you weren't welcome?
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by PurpleHayes007
Re: Standard of sessions
I'll let bb answer that one herself, but it brings up an important point. Yes, we were all beginners once. I was definitely one, and I was guilty of noodling here and there. I only wish I could go back in time and rework my behavior so I won't be so embarrassed about it now when I think back to the early days.
It's difficult to know what it's like to play tunes in a session and have beginners nearby noodling or trying to play something way above their level until you yourself become experienced and proficient and then have it happen to you. This forum allows us to express that to beginners in hopes that they might have a chance to think about what effect they might have on sessions before they go. I only wish I had something like this website back when I was trying to figure it all out at first… would have spared me tons of embarrassment later.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Standard of sessions
Quoth saltcast: "...and bodhrans and hamonicas..."
I wouldn't be at all surprised.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Standard of sessions
Ah yes, David... the wonders of Google image search. 'Slippery Noodle Inn' sounds way too provocative for a session pub though
Welcome to thesession.org, Steve.
# Posted on January 2nd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Standard of sessions
Shhhh, Jack!
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Standard of sessions
I'm a beginner and my first reaction to this was horror, because I find most sessions intimidating anyway, because I don't have the repertoire and are only just on my feet with my instrument skills. But thinking about it, I guess I'd prefer to know up front that this session is advanced and beginners are only welcome to a back stall or to watch, rather than have the far worse mortification of a slow realisation that you are intruding...that would probably have me not try to play in a session again for months!.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
I guess it's about perceived rejection. Dr Julian Short a brilliant psychologist in a great little book 'An Intelligent Life' wrote that the reason that ALL people react to perceived rejection with fear (and therefore consequently with either anger [fight] or mortification and flee) is because at one stage in our human evolution, social rejection would have meant our death. So it always feels really really bad. Which is why we both dislike rejecting others and being rejected ourselves. So, I guess, I'd prefer people to be as honest as they can, as well as kind! Especially since it is the belonging and community that is generated by this music that is its strongest appeal to many people.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Standard of sessions
bb plays the fiddle and started this thread. I am BB, and I was never a beginner, just born great.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Standard of sessions
a born bullshutter too
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by Bren
Beginners?? What??
Hey - hold your horses and put down your torches. I said NOTHING about beginners at all. What I was referring to was more people who arent beginners who take over sessions, hijack sets and think they are actually way better than they are. Beginner or person who has been playing many years...either way.....
I remember this one session in Miltown Malbay where there was a session with Siobhan Peoples, Murty Ryan, Tola Custy etc etc - I knew that I wouldnt actually be able to bring anything to that session...so I sat at the bar and listened all night and had a great time without playing. What I really want to know is why it is so hard for some people to enjoy a session that is above their skill level without actually bringing out their insturments....that is what I mean.
There was another time where I got paid to do a session in London, because I didnt know anyone there I wasnt sure who else was being paid or who the regulars were, There was a chap there who started almost every set, hijacked sets all night - he was classically trained and was obviously of the 'I'm too cool for school and dont need to do anything to my playing to play trad group'. I thought he was paid to do the session. Then these two little girls sat down and started playing tunes - maybe they were 9 and 11 - one playing the Uillean pipes - and they were brilliant. This chap leans over and said loudly 'Dont worry girls, with a lot of hard work you'll be good someday too' - What?? What]? Are you serious - you cant acutually play and you say that to these two amazing girls,....are you joking me?
That is what I mean - Not beginners not being able to play but people who dont put effort into playing and think that for some reason they have a right to any session on any night at any time with anyone even if they bring nothing to the session and actually damage the session.
And just for the record - anyone on this site who thinks that I think that I'm good has no idea - I struggle eveyday with my playing - It upsets me most days and most days I get so frustrated with my playing I just dont bother practising - its a vicious circle. But thats ok - its all part of learning. I want to be at a certain level - I am not there by a Looooongggg shot. So do I remember what it is like to be a begginer?? Yes - everyday - especially when in ireland and hanging out with the lads playing tunes.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Standard of sessions
CurvyFiddle, would you expect to walk into a cafe as a novice chess player where folks are playing at a high level and sit down to play someone who is far more experienced? My guess is that you would watch for a while and try to determine if there are any players at your level before you sat down to play. Now I'm not suggesting that playing ITM is like playing chess, but I think you get the drift.
If you walk into a pub where a session is you want to do the same thing though -- listen and see what level they're playing at. If it seems like it's within your abilities -- ask if you can join. There's nothing to be afraid of -- it's just people getting together to play tunes. But for everyone to continue having a good time you want to be sure you don't interfere with the flow.
Most musicians you encounter will be friendly and will no doubt insist you join them regardless of your level. This is great, but all you have to do is be sure you don’t expect them to change the session to accommodate you too much from what they were doing before you got there. They'll ask you to start tunes you know here and there, but not every tune, and don't try to play tunes you don't know. Don't worry about sitting and listening because you won't be judged for tunes you don't know -- unless you start noodling audibly. Just enjoy the tunes, new friends and you're on your way.
~~~
Disclaimer: I’m not talking about anyone here’s session, but rather the ones I’ve seen, participated in, or anchored myself.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Standard of sessions
Yes, bb, I see what you mean. I think it's common sense that you're talking about here. When I visit someone else's session I feel more like a passenger on the bus rather than the driver and I start very few tunes... and usually only when asked. I've seen people that come to sessions with some sort of errant assumption that whomever can p*ss higher on the wall gets to start all the tunes regardless of who’s anchoring or hosting. These are the sort that are likely to make disparaging comments to young players, like in your example.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Standard of sessions
I want to second Kris' point: a clear remit is the key. If the session is a free-for-all, or if there is no real leadership (whether "official" or through force of musicianship and/or personality) then we must accept and enjoy whatever comes, or stop attending. If, however, there is a policy, it should be made clear (somehow - I know that can be the hard bit), otherwise people will go through the experience Curvy describes: the " mortification of a slow realisation that you are intruding".
On another point, while I agree with AlBrown that both beginners and experts can hijack a session, I am uneasy about: "...beginners and they only know a few polkas...". It verges horribly close to the brink of suggesting that polkas are beginners tunes!
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Standard of sessions
I get the feeling sometimes that "some" beginners regard a session as another way of practicing tunes, instead of learning the tunes to a reasonable standard at home first.
Personally I don't play in sessions to practice . . I do it for the buzz . . which every once in a while . . when you get the "buzz" (when every ones on the ball and playing as one) . . its the best feeling there is .
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by Justintime
Re: Standard of sessions
This argument often comes back to someone trying to prick your conscience with the "Oh, we all started off as beginners, don't you remember?" line.
Yes, I know bb has clearly stated she didn't mean beginners, just mediochre players who dominate for one reason or another. But the same rationale applies. If you are intermediate to advanced at your instrument, and you admit on here that you would rather do without such personna at your session, you may well get accused of snobbery. So much for good old fashioned being honest.
So, if you go along to your local session and it has of late fallen off a bit because of one or two loud but relatively mundane players who churn out the same sets every week, thus putting off local good players, it's ok to just roll over and accept it?
From a purely detached viewpoint novice players can be useful at sessions for the following - as they learn 'blind', so to speak, unpolluted by current trends in sets etc, they sometimes unearth little gems more experienced players may have overlooked. So I can assure you I am not an anti-beginner snob, or even an anti-plodder snob. I have no reason to be as I'm just a session player on flute and a learner myself on box. But it is good when you're at a session where you feel you don't have to cater for either of those. Inclusivity is all very well if you can get out more than twice a week to sessions - but if you have a family, and get out usually just once a week then that time is precious and inclusivity is a luxury of time I and some other players I know cannot afford.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Standard of sessions
You are right The Phantom Button, which is why as a beginner I've never started a tune at a session. I go, watch, listen, learn, and occasionally, when one of the old hands has asked me at the bar which tunes I've learned, and then announces he is going to play one of them slowly so the beginners can join in, I've joined in. And in watching and listening I've observed EXACTLY what bb is talking about....sessions hijacked by the mediocre but egomaniacal ....who tend also to be the worst offenders at the rolling eyes and 'attitude' when accommodating anyone else. The really good players tend to be welcoming, encouraging and unassuming - so I guess it makes it hard for them to bring the hijackers to heel!
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Standard of sessions
I envy you lot across the pond who "only" have to worry about mediocrity or boorishness from some players. Here in the States we also have to contend with the fact that many don't understand that an ITM session should consist at least mostly of Irish music.
Here you have Bluegrass , Old Timey, Contra Dance style etc., as well as the odd singer-songwriter trying to highjack sessions. All of these are fine, legitimate styles of music in their own right, but there are "other places you can go for that" as I once heard Dennis Cahill remark when someone suggested playing some Highland Scots style tunes in an Irish session.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by Murph
Re: Standard of sessions
Ahhh yes there's that darn conscience rearing its head again. (Why won't it stop pricking us!!) Dismissing those pesky beginners is like berating the poor after you've come into money. I'd just say that we should all remember where we've come from.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by PurpleHayes007
Re: Standard of sessions
No. Not to you. (he said respectfully).
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by PurpleHayes007
Re: Standard of sessions
"I envy you lot across the pond who "only" have to worry about mediocrity or boorishness from some players. Here in the States we also have to contend with the fact that many don't understand that an ITM session should consist at least mostly of Irish music."
Tim, that is a myth if there ever was one. I have been to "Irish" sessions where people playing Northumbrian tunes have completely hijacked it. I've been to sessions where they played such a mixture of Irish, Scottish, English, Northumbrian tunes that the session had no coherence or connection. Went to a session in London where the guitar player started belting Paul Simon tunes and other stuff I didn't recognize but certainly wasn't Irish. The British Isles are not this utopic place where everyone has a deep understanding of the tradition. You'll find plenty of players there who "don't get it" as you find in the States, just as you find plenty who do "get it."
Have had better sessions in Boulder than some of the ones I have been to in England. Have also had some fantastic sessions over there. No place is exempt from the good, the bad, and the ugly.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Standard of sessions
Hey David - I am not gloating, but rather - I've realised that I really enjoy watching cricket - just as we are losing two of our best too retirement! My brother came up and we watched the last two rounds or whatever they are called - the five day thingys and then he was explaining how it all works and I really got into it! Oh dear.....
I am sad not to be in Wales with you lads, I am way jealous but hope you all have a really good time.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Standard of sessions
bb, your playing actually *upsets* you most days? Are you serious? I've seen you post that you dislike your own playing, and dismissed it at first, but I've seen your YouTube clip and there's a definite disconnect there. Are you only going to be happy when you can play as well as Tommy Peoples? It seems to me that you're missing out on a lot of enjoyment that you could be having right now.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Standard of sessions
I agree with Kennedy. I checked out your clip too and you sound great bb.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by PurpleHayes007
Re: Standard of sessions
I was about to begin an angry post when I noticed Bren is an Aussie, therefore an acknowledged expert on bullsh*t. End of post.
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Standard of sessions
Hey, I am used to bodhrans getting slagged around here, but when did we start slagging harmonicas?
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Standard of sessions
"Tim, that is a myth if there ever was one. I have been to "Irish" sessions where people playing Northumbrian tunes have completely hijacked it. I've been to sessions where they played such a mixture of Irish, Scottish, English, Northumbrian tunes that the session had no coherence or connection. "
Are Irish sessions advertised as such? Is anything wrong with a session that is just a group of people getting together for a drink, a chat and a few tunes? I think that's enough coherence and connection...........
# Posted on January 3rd 2007 by mehere
Re: Standard of sessions
mehere - coming back to my earier point on remit....
There is nothing wrong with a session being a mixture of traditions, if that is what the core players in that session intend. If that is what they intend, then they would be smarter in the long run to make those intentions clear. As would those who prefer an Irish music session.
Like Silver Spear, I struggle with finding coherence in a lot of sessions that mix traditions. At times I struggle with this in my own somewhat schizophrenic Scots/Irish repertoire, too. Call me compartmentalised, but I tend not to mix the two repertoires very much - generally even playing them on two quite different accordions.
The fact that I don't like mixing things up in this way doesn't mean I am putting a value judgement on people who do. However, I get frustrated when those who want to mix it up cry "exclusive b**tards" when they encounter a session that has a more specific agenda.
As for the rest - most session players need to learn to play less and listen more.
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by kris
Re: Standard of sessions
I've been watching this and am not surprised that there is nothing here that wasn't said in the thread linked by the maniac at the top
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Standard of sessions
"the maniac" - I did chuckle. But I have to agree with you, michael, and I take it your views, which I recall more or less concurred with mine on that thread, haven't changed either.
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Standard of sessions
Hmmm, not Tommy Peoples - Siobhan Peoples instead
I dont think there is necessarily anything wrong with trying to be really good. It gives me an aim in life and keeps me out of trouble (mostly).
Yes llig I agree -but somehow until I get the answer that I need I'm going to keep on posting these stupid questions, As you are probably aware this is not the first time I posted this particular bitch and it prob wont be the last.
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Standard of sessions
So would you be willing to inicate *specifically* who you feel has "come along half willie nilly and played whatever badly" at, say Kelly's? Or must we all just examine our own consciences?
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Standard of sessions
Slag harmonicas at your peril. One day I'll show up at your session. Your pub had better serve Doom Bar.
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Standard of sessions
Nothing wrong with trying to be good, or better than you are. We all do that (well maybe not all---I do, anyway). What I'm talking about is not being able to enjoy where you are right now. Being *upset* with your playing when you've been playing 11 years and you play beautifully. I can't imagine that you never say to yourself "hmm, I did okay on that tune, it sounded pretty good" and just take pleasure in hearing something pretty and know that you're making it happen. There's a lot more enjoyment in that than thinking "my triplets weren't crisp enough, that sounded like crap, I'm really upset" or whatever it is that you're thinking.
I'm not saying ignore the things you want to improve. I do think that many of us are much too hard on ourselves, though, and it sucks a lot of fun out of life and makes us into negative unhappy people.
So cheer up, bb. Try to play at least one tune a night where you promise yourself that you'll only focus on what you like, and that you'll tell yourself that you like it. With the way you play, it shouldn't be hard to do!
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Standard of sessions
Actually - I was referring more to the sessions I used to go to in galway. Where there would be a set of amazing musicians but sometimes someone would turn up (different people - not just one) who kind of scared me. Like this one guy who played the bodhran with his hand until it bled and it just kept bleeding and he got blood everywhere. Or this one time this lady turned up and held the bodhran up next to her head and proceed to beat it with a stick all night - really weird. Thats more what I'm talking about - I amnt talking about people who like trad and play it - I'm talking about people who obviously just dont care. Like its obvious they have never sat down and listened to trad - but it doesnt worry them - they just try and play it anyway.
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Standard of sessions
Not anything about bodhrans by the way - just happens that they are two stories that spring to mind.
There was also this lady who sat next to me once a started tweetying on the whistle - not playing a tune and not even in the right key or anything - kind of making stuff up. I asked her did she have any tunes and she replied that she didnt like playing tunes but that she preferred to play around the melody. Not realising that it was really off putting and just plain rude to boot. She was loud, in the wrong key and tring to back on a whistle. I'm sorry if people find it offensive that that kind of thing drives me nuts - but really.......
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Standard of sessions
Ah, I see what you mean better now.
In my small experience, that kind of thing happens more in Ireland. On the one hand, is it not one of the charms of the Irish character that there can be a willingness to accept the chaotic and absurd that life throws up? And on the other hand, part of Irish community-pub culture involves an expectation that everybody brings something to the party and has to perform their piece. So when shy Kathleen Kingston (O'Brien as she was) is called on, and has only a half-remembered and out-of-tune version of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" to offer, she must and will still perform - and everybody is happy. She participated in the community activity. But I don't want to over-romanticize it, just suggest why there may be a willingness to accept that kind of thing.
There was a guy who lived for a year or so in a yurt near the house I had in Cork. He had a couple of whistles, but felt that music should be a spontaneous expression of the soul, untrammeled by fixed tunes. When he went to the local session (which wasn't often, thankfully) he would not only noodle, he would even do solos consisting of spontaneous warbling. Nobody clapped, nobody said "Good man", and nobody bought him a beer. Perhaps it would have been kinder if someone had firmly said to him "That's not what this is about", but then the newagers would have wanted to revolt.
I should add that many of the unexpected things that happened at that sort of session were extraordinary experiences that it would have been sad to miss. What do do, eh?
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Standard of sessions
Hey - that is spot on what I mean BTooter! That is exactly what I was trying to say in the most round about way possible!!!
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Standard of sessions
I'm reminded of the antics of Timber Tony with the knife in his wooded leg and all that craicl. This anecdote and others similar to the ones BTooter describes can be found on this thread.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7401/comments
bb -- The fella with the bleeding hand you mentioned was actually Bodhran Bliss. He's very devoted you see.
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Standard of sessions
Jack - you know Tony Timber (as I remember he was called - not that it matters)?
Dublin flute player?
Small world right enough!
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Standard of sessions
Now I see bb. You're objection is not to beginners but to the musically insane. Fair enough.
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by PurpleHayes007
Re: Standard of sessions
bb, our ex banjo played specialised in sticking whistles through peoples necks. They bled a lot more than that bodhran player.
Sometimes a discreet whistle through the neck can improve a session.
As for bleeding hands and fingers Jack, not me, a guitar player I used to know. It's a long story.
# Posted on January 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss