Quick question: is the jig rhythm the same in Irish and Scottish fiddling, or if not, how are they different? Does the Scottish put more stress on the first quaver (I *think* that's the word I want), or is it just me?
Thanks!
My ears tell me that I think the short answer is YES they are different...and yes the first quaver seems to last longer in Scottish than in Irish....but I'm sure you'll get better more technical answers soon.
I'd agree with strungup. You might do worse than listen to an album by Jimmy Shand or some other good ceilidh band to get the feel of Scottish dance music rhythms, even if you're hearing accordion, not fiddle.
There's a bit of a difference in Scottish music between 6/8 jigs and 6/8 marches - the latter is a military Highland Bagpipe form, and is generally not played as fast as jigs can be. Men were meant to march to it, not dance to it!
(Farewell To The Creeks is a 6/8 march; The Thief Of Lochaber is a 6/8 pipe jig; both should be in this database.)
I don't know that there is actually more emphasis in one country than another, but there is certainly a greater tendency to lengthen the quaver/quarter note at the start of each group of three in Scotland, and to lengthen it more. Typically, it is lengthened by about the same amount as it would be if it were rolled in Irish music, and I have my theories that this may be where the habit originated (trying to capture the feel of the Irish roll) - but now I'm speculating.
As I write this I am listening to Kevin Burke play a set of jigs. He is hardly lengthening the first notes at all, but the emphasis and bowing still create a tremendous amount of swing and almost give me the felling that he is lengthening.
My experience of Scottish fiddling is not nearly as wide as that of Irish fiddling. But I should like to draw attention to the way Scottish tunes are represented in sheetmusic. In 6/8 tunes - both jigs and marches - the 3-quaver groupings may be shown straight (ABc), with a dotted first note (A>Bc) or a dotted second note (A<Bc). Often, all three are found in the same tune - although their presence and placing seems to vary from one setting of a tune to another. However, this suggests that the internal 'microrhythms' of a tune are more important in Scottish music than in Irish. Whilst the Irish 'lilt', 'lift' or 'swing' is a quality with which all tunes may be imbued unconsciously and indiscriminately, the use of a straight, 'swung' or 'snapped' grouping in Scottish music is somehow more deliberate, akin perhaps, to melodic variation in Irish music. Indeed, it is entirely possible that the rhythmic nuances represented in sheet music are merely 'settings', real or hypothetical - i.e. a records of the tune as it was played on one occasion, or typical examples of how the tune might be played.
Laura Cortese [http://www.lauracortese.com], a marvelous fiddler who is grounded in -- but not limited to -- the Scottish style, once explained it this way: "Scottish music has a lot of space in it. The tunes have a lot of rhythmic drive but there aren't as many notes, so you have room to push a beat or to add variations. And because there are so many regional styles, there's a lot of variety. I enjoy playing all the different styles and picking out what works best for me."
Scottish music is played 'pointed' and Irish is played round. pointing is represented as a dotted eighth note followed by a sixteenth and then an eighth but it isn't quite played like that. You need to have someone show you just how it's done. Scottish pointing is heard best in a Strathspaey.
Try this sight: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/
Spoon - you might be surprised to know that Scots trad music is often not played as written. Many players take the stance that all 6/8s should be pointed/dotted whether written so or not. In piping, where there is a strong tradition of group playing and competition and everyone needs to play exactly the same rhythm, you will find the dots are usually put in very accurately and thoroughly. However, I'd say you are right that deliberate control over the length of notes in this way is a very important feature of Scots music.
In other cases, reading players often adjust the dots to suit their own tastes - or just ignore them out of laziness.
When you find the first note of the group shortened and the second lengthened, then this is more important to the melody and a larger proportion of players will tend to follow it.
Baglady - that's a huge generalisation! In fact, it seems to me that while what you say is broadly true for jigs, it is often the opposite with reels, with a lot Irish players swinging them more than most Scots.
Scottish jigs are, to generalize a bit, are more 'ponted", like baglady said. Dot the first note in the triplet, and go from there, even though it is not written like that. Scottish tunes do swing...Duke Ellington said that there are 2 types of music that swing...jazz and Scottish!
Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
Quick question: is the jig rhythm the same in Irish and Scottish fiddling, or if not, how are they different? Does the Scottish put more stress on the first quaver (I *think* that's the word I want), or is it just me?
Thanks!
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by puabi
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
My ears tell me that I think the short answer is YES they are different...and yes the first quaver seems to last longer in Scottish than in Irish....but I'm sure you'll get better more technical answers soon.
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
You can't actually generalise Irish or Scottish fiddling. There are diverse playing styles in both countries, you know.
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by slainte
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
I know there are different styles, but can you really not generalize at all?
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by puabi
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
I'd agree with strungup. You might do worse than listen to an album by Jimmy Shand or some other good ceilidh band to get the feel of Scottish dance music rhythms, even if you're hearing accordion, not fiddle.
There's a bit of a difference in Scottish music between 6/8 jigs and 6/8 marches - the latter is a military Highland Bagpipe form, and is generally not played as fast as jigs can be. Men were meant to march to it, not dance to it!
(Farewell To The Creeks is a 6/8 march; The Thief Of Lochaber is a 6/8 pipe jig; both should be in this database.)
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
I don't know that there is actually more emphasis in one country than another, but there is certainly a greater tendency to lengthen the quaver/quarter note at the start of each group of three in Scotland, and to lengthen it more. Typically, it is lengthened by about the same amount as it would be if it were rolled in Irish music, and I have my theories that this may be where the habit originated (trying to capture the feel of the Irish roll) - but now I'm speculating.
As I write this I am listening to Kevin Burke play a set of jigs. He is hardly lengthening the first notes at all, but the emphasis and bowing still create a tremendous amount of swing and almost give me the felling that he is lengthening.
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by kris
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
My experience of Scottish fiddling is not nearly as wide as that of Irish fiddling. But I should like to draw attention to the way Scottish tunes are represented in sheetmusic. In 6/8 tunes - both jigs and marches - the 3-quaver groupings may be shown straight (ABc), with a dotted first note (A>Bc) or a dotted second note (A<Bc). Often, all three are found in the same tune - although their presence and placing seems to vary from one setting of a tune to another. However, this suggests that the internal 'microrhythms' of a tune are more important in Scottish music than in Irish. Whilst the Irish 'lilt', 'lift' or 'swing' is a quality with which all tunes may be imbued unconsciously and indiscriminately, the use of a straight, 'swung' or 'snapped' grouping in Scottish music is somehow more deliberate, akin perhaps, to melodic variation in Irish music. Indeed, it is entirely possible that the rhythmic nuances represented in sheet music are merely 'settings', real or hypothetical - i.e. a records of the tune as it was played on one occasion, or typical examples of how the tune might be played.
Sorry - I don't do answers.
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by granama
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
Laura Cortese [http://www.lauracortese.com], a marvelous fiddler who is grounded in -- but not limited to -- the Scottish style, once explained it this way: "Scottish music has a lot of space in it. The tunes have a lot of rhythmic drive but there aren't as many notes, so you have room to push a beat or to add variations. And because there are so many regional styles, there's a lot of variety. I enjoy playing all the different styles and picking out what works best for me."
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by sts
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
Scottish music is played 'pointed' and Irish is played round. pointing is represented as a dotted eighth note followed by a sixteenth and then an eighth but it isn't quite played like that. You need to have someone show you just how it's done. Scottish pointing is heard best in a Strathspaey.
Try this sight:
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by baglady
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
Spoon - you might be surprised to know that Scots trad music is often not played as written. Many players take the stance that all 6/8s should be pointed/dotted whether written so or not. In piping, where there is a strong tradition of group playing and competition and everyone needs to play exactly the same rhythm, you will find the dots are usually put in very accurately and thoroughly. However, I'd say you are right that deliberate control over the length of notes in this way is a very important feature of Scots music.
In other cases, reading players often adjust the dots to suit their own tastes - or just ignore them out of laziness.
When you find the first note of the group shortened and the second lengthened, then this is more important to the melody and a larger proportion of players will tend to follow it.
Baglady - that's a huge generalisation! In fact, it seems to me that while what you say is broadly true for jigs, it is often the opposite with reels, with a lot Irish players swinging them more than most Scots.
# Posted on December 29th 2006 by kris
Re: Jig Rhythm, Irish and Scottish
Scottish jigs are, to generalize a bit, are more 'ponted", like baglady said. Dot the first note in the triplet, and go from there, even though it is not written like that. Scottish tunes do swing...Duke Ellington said that there are 2 types of music that swing...jazz and Scottish!
# Posted on January 1st 2007 by Sunnybear