I've been playing guitar for about 20 years and have - i'd like to think - a fairly good right and left hand. Also, I play the flute and know a good many tunes. I'd like to start w/ the "basic" chords for selected tunes and then perhaps work toward an individual style of backing (e.g. arpeggios etc). But, for some strange reason, I can't figure this backing issue out. Can someone direct me to a resource toward backing Irish music on guitar that doesn't devolve in to an abscure discussion of tonal notes and "modality" and the like. How does one determine what chords are appropriate for a given tune.
p.s. I play melodies so the "learn the tune iteself" approach doesn't suffice here.
Any guidance much appreciated,
JeffS
"Don't use a static chord sequence when accompanying (two bars of D, boom-chuck-a-chuck, two bars of G, boom-chuck-a-chuck, etc.), but instead to try to build up a moving line of accompaniment, using different chord voicings, bass runs, occasional counter-melodies, and so on, in order to
highlight the changes in the melody. And vary what you do.
A certain amount of melody playing is essential for several
reasons. Familiarity with melodic structure is obviously useful when backing tunes on the fly, and an insight into the melody player's role helps to develop that vital bond between melody player and accompanist
Next try developing some harmonic ideas. First just play one or two notes per bar--doesn't matter whether they are bass notes or not. Then when the tune repeats, try adding some more notes. Listen, and decide what works best, without getting hung up on asking yourself what the "chord" is. By
paring your playing down to the minimum and then building it up again, you should develop a style that is rooted in the melody, rather than adapting an existing style. Experiment with alternatives to the harmonies that you use. There is a lot of repetition in the melodic structure, but it's done
in such a way that variations are constantly introduced--you should aim to do the same with your accompaniment."
Learn lots of voicings all over the neck, over various sets of strings eg: G in various possisions on the Ist 3 strings (3rd fret, 7th fret. 10th fret) with a D 4th string drone, then set up a simple counter melody. Start with the absolute minimum, and gradually add more chords/voicings. This is just an example. BegF has got it nailed. Don't just think in basic chords and bar chords. Learn as many voicings as possible and try to play a a simple counter melody harmonicaly Remember, start simple and gradually add colour.
Yes, I agree with Paul DeGrae's theory in many ways. I remember he told me he doesn't like chord charts either. I think however, they are useful for people starting out. You have to start somewhere, and that's an obvious start. You likely have all that after 20 years though.
The part about throwing in notes, you can't just tell someone "throw in some notes"....that comes with knowing the tunes, which you do, for one, but the second part of that is knowing where that note/sound lives on the fingerboard, and this is not a simple thing, so to just say "add a few notes" will not compute automatically. It requires playing so much and so often that your brain ultimately gets encoded to the point where you hear a note and your finger flies there. It's something, I believe is deeper than plain memory. You really don't have time to stop and think.... OK, let me go play that note. It's well gone by then. it has to become an autopilot thing, and that takes a good while of practicing to tunes.
As for developing individual style, maybe the notes thrown in ARE the key to that. People will either fingerpick or strum, period, or maybe cross-pick (I cannot for the life of me understand how to do that, LOL!). It's where the players stress what notes that makes their sound unique. They feel it and stress it, that's where many differ and unique styles are born.
It's just in the endless (but should be fun) practice to recordings I believe, that will give you the speed and ease you need to keep up with the melody players.
I honestly don't even know what "tonal notes" and "modality" mean and if am teaching someone some tips here and there will never use these type words. I have nothing against them, it's that I can't wrap my pea-brain around them or something, I find the ear and eye method better for myself, and for explaining to others. If you can grasp music theory too all the better... i cannot seem to retain it. So on that note.... sure a lesson or DVD should help give you the basics, just by listening and watching.
he carries a lot of lessons on DVD, some Celtic, and is also an amazing player with both a great ear, and a lot of technical knowledge, and he is always happy to advise. He is more known for blues and rags, but is also a great Celtic tune player , which few people know, and can advise well, analyze the problems you are having etc. He knows the instrument inside out and upside down, in my opinion has more well rounded knowledge about guitar playing than anyone else I have ever met.
The problem with backing and why the discussions "devolve" into vagueness and theories of how to back properly etc. is because backing is a free floating kind of playing by nature, it's not like melody playing where you have more guides and roadmaps. The most guidance you will get is something like a DVD or chord charts for Celtic backing, which you can experiment with.... but experimenting is the key, period.
I see many people get frustrated and drop the instrument because of the above. They pick it up thinking it'll be easy, and it's easy enough to teach someone the basic chords in each key, but then they are hit with tunes that are all over the place melodically and they get confused.
The thing to remember is ALL backers went through this phase.... many dropped out, but many others hung in and worked through it and came out the other side. Just bear with this period where you know the chords, but they are not working to make a good sound together, and practice and experiment at home alone. With trying this that and the other thing within the structure of the key you are in, you will more than likely hit some real interesting stuff, and eventually your personality will start to emerge in your playing.
The other big mistake, and this is true of melody or anything, is wanting to sound real good right away, without putting in the years it takes to build it up. That's why it's great to start as a kid, you don't have all these sophisticated expectations. Try to lose them if you have them, and you will do a lot better.
So I'd say you have to start small, learn on a few tunes first, one in each main key, a D tune, E minor, a G an A, etc. maybe you can put them on a CD to practice to, all together, one after the other, and play and experiment. "Thedon" says add in all these voicings.... the main chords will be the skeleton of the backing, the voicings come with experimenting... his more technical advice as to positions on frets etc. are good things to play with. I could show you, but don;t really have names for them, they are notes strung together that are not exactly a chord but make sense. I found them, and am still finding new ones by the "hunt and peck" method, and you can too.
OK... long post again sorry.... just that backing IS a very intricate thing, not the simple thing many assume, with three chords alternating.
yep, im there with irisnevins, obviously, harmonically the 3 chord trick will work, but u hav to look for anything ekse u can fit in, pretty soon, ull b doin runs up and down the fret board, i find opern chords are cool, especially am and bm, kazz chords are also cool, major sevenths if i can at all will be thrown in, drones are always good, goin back in what most others said, just start off taking in easy, and puck sh*te after, keep ur playing dynamic dude...far out...
Iris is right. Start with big dreams, and lower expectations of yourself, to avoid disappointment and packing it in.
The best accompaniment (in any musicial discipline) is one that provides a shifting harmonic background for the melody, which sparks interest. Every chord (ie: G major) has a scale from which the chordal tones (ie: do, mi, sol) are taken. Similarly, for each step of the applicable scale, there is also a chord, meaning one could play the whole scale of G major in chords. Learn these for every type of chord - major, minor, etc. Although it sounds (and likely is) better suited to jazz theory, the principle works for every musical discipline, and is well worth the years (yes, years) of time you'll put in perfecting it. After which point, you'll be able to handily accompany yourself on flute with the guitar, and live happily ever after.
Jeff, dispite you wanted answers not based on theoretical jargon here is something that I haven't seen told too often.
#1. Chords are build from scales by taking every second note of the scale, three for triads, more notes if you want more complicated chords. As an example I'll show how the triads for the Dorian scale: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 are derived. The triads are built by piling the every second note in colums, so the first chord is:
5
b3
1
the second chord for the Dorian scale is then:
6
4
2
and so on. If we arrange all the results together this is what we get (If this doesn't line up properly paste it to Notepad/Courier font):
5 6 b7 1 2 b3 4
b3 4 5 6 b7 1 2
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
If we now read the colums from low to hi we can see that the chords are: i, iidim, IIIb, iv, v, bVI, VIIb(small letters indicate minors i.e. the 3rd is flat, dim means both 3 and 5 are flat i.e. b3,b5).
Amongst these chords you will find the bullet proof chords for the Dorian scale. There is no simple truth to say which chords to choose for a certain tune and in which point, but inspecting the scale notes in the tune and finding the notes which seem most important for the tune will say something.
What you can also see from the 'chart' above, is which chords can probably be used instead of another. For example, the i and bVI ( 1st and 6th chords) share the same notes 1 and b3, thus differing only by the notes 5 and 6. In general,if two triads share same two notes there is a big change that you can use them instead of the other, giving a different color for the backup.
You can use this method to get the chords for any scale, major minor, mixolydian..., and you could even try to use it for a scale you have derived from the notes of a certain tune! The chords can of course be used in several ways, expanding, leaving out notes, using substitutions, inverting, what ever.
Hope this helps some,
Risto
PS.
Here are the scale notes for some scales if you want to try them out. (In the order of increasing flats).
Hey... one more interesting note (pardon pun!) .... I have been experimenting with some of the things in the past year that the old piano players use. I believe it is called chromatic scales....I am a musical dunce with the music theory... if you were sitting here with me I could show you in two seconds. It relates to the shifting behind the music.... sort of where you make a gradual change into a chord by going down... or up... for example, if playing in E minor... I am say, up on the B minor and start draggin down in steps back towards the E minor chord, so will go to A, G, F# and/or F, and back to E. It happens fast, but subtly and smoothly. Only where it fits the tune, mind you, not as a general principle. Sometimes I bring it up in reverse. It creates a very interesting rip tide that carries the music this way or that.
Maybe Risto or someone with more technical knowledge can explain what I mean in a more understandable fashion. My method is eye and ear, which is useless on a printed page.
It first hit me when we did a lovely concert at IAANJ last May with Willie Kelly, and his brother-in-law Regan Wick was on piano.... I am not fond of piano backing unless it's spectacular, and Regan is astounding. I really took in what he was doing and tried to adapt some of it to guitar. Then I listened really closely to Felix Dolan the few times I heard him playing piano in E. Durham, and also recordings.... Felix, Regan and Brendan Dolan are pianists I love.... and also the new kid on the block, a rising star... Bernadette Flanagan....
In any case, I think it is valuable to listen to other types of traditional backing, even if not your instrument or style. The old 78s too or reissues, the piano backing can be amazing and it is a lot more moody (in the good sense of bringing out the mood of a tune) and is more "with" the music, and has many notes of the tune tossed in than much of the guitar or zouk backing heard these days.
I just think we string players have a lot to learn from listening to really traditional piano backers.
An excellent resource for backing is Chris Smith's book; I don't have it handy at the moment but the title is "Celtic Back-Up for All Instruments" or something close to that. He has a very informative website also. He goes into many approaches to backing (bass drones, arpeggios, counterpoint lines, etc.), set out in a structure where you can try them out in an organized way, and has a section on basic chord progressions in various keys for tunes in various modes. This is pretty understandable (you can associate modes with the melodies of particular tunes you know) but if the modal thing puts you off you can get a lot out of the book without going into that. There's a CD with examples plus performances of entire tunes of the various types (jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc.).
With respect to piano accompaniment, various Cape Breton pianists are good examples too. Tracy Dares has an instructional tape (probably now DVD) out on that style. It's generally more involved than Irish accompaniment often is (in my observation), e.g., more syncopated (almost ragtimey, sometimes), but will give you a lot of ideas. Good luck. Jim
"Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
... I believe it is called chromatic scales..."
Or perhaps generally known as 'the moving basses', if I understood correctly what you mean. In that case bass players should know right on what you mean. John Doyle is also a master in this art and he constanly uses the low D-string for moving basses. There are a lot of fancy quick half steps in his moving basses when he climbes or decends from a key to another.
Yes, Risto...that's it... exactly...moving the bases up and down, in dropped D.... and many quick half (or less) steps to fit it all in, thanks for clarifying.
I don't know what a chromatic scale is, someone "accused" me of doing it though when I was moving the bass. Pianos do that a fair bit, it's where it hit me. the feel of it is very fluid, like a waterfall, whether up or down.
If I learned what chromatic was, and all the other technicalities, I guarantee my brain would revert to ear again anyway, so I don't even bother anymore. I have learned and unlearned how to read music countless times. It's a bit of a handicap too at times, and I admire your technical knowledge and ability to communicate it well.
Iris, I have to correct what I said earlier, it's of course called "the walking basses". Had a temporary (?) short cut and mixed it with the term movable bass patterns. Doesn't affect anything we said though.
Means the same to me either way...good description. I think walking the bass is also an old blues/folk guitar term? I think I have heard it before. The application of it sounds so different in Irish trad, at least how I do it, and now I recall Doyle doing it. The pianos sure do it.
It sounds choppier and more separation between the notes if I am correct, with other types of music. Here it sounds like one long falling note, very smooth...like a red carpet rolled out for the melody to flow down... or up. I almost think it needs a different term for this music...maybe "flowing the basses" or rolling them down or up? It happens real fast and real smoothe is all, and the listener should maybe just hear something moody going on beneath the melody but not be able to put their finger on just exactly what it is? To my ear that's ideal. And it's gone before they can figure out what just happened. It's a great thing about backing, you can change the mood or carry a tune this way and that yet be so subtle and fleeting about it that it just adds some kind of color to the melody without being out front and center.
Drone on the root. If the tonal center of the tune is D, drone on a low D, defining the beat. Listen for the "indicator" notes (3rds, 7ths) and pick up more complex comping after the first go round based on what you've learned from the melody.
Hit whole note Fifth Chords on the first beat of alternate bars (just the I and V) on the ones. Walk in a major or minor progression in between these strong booming whole notes.
Triads on the highest three strings (or inverted triads) create a nice chiming effect.
As to what to play. The Smith book talks a lot about tonal centers as opposed to keys, and that's handy. I think this also relates to chromatic keys as someone else mentioned in that progressions based on the "actual" key sound chromatic if you mistake the tonal center for key. Don't get too hung up on the "key" as long as your comping has a good feel and sounds good.
With the exception of those whole note 1's I mentioned, keeping things sharp and staccato is generally a good idea.
Some good ideas here. I like the notion of just droning bass notes, so you can get a feel for what the minimum, skeletal requirements are for accompaniment. Start with something simple and let it grow incrementally as you learn what fits.
One thing I would emphasize is to be careful not to fill up the space with strums. Sometimes, in the right hands, the wall-of-sound approach CAN be pretty cool. In most hands, it's just annoying. Some of Tommy Peoples' early recordings feature the annoying variety. There are enough strums in The Iron Man to spread over two or three CD's.
Irish accompaniment on guitar
Irish accompaniment on guitar
I've been playing guitar for about 20 years and have - i'd like to think - a fairly good right and left hand. Also, I play the flute and know a good many tunes. I'd like to start w/ the "basic" chords for selected tunes and then perhaps work toward an individual style of backing (e.g. arpeggios etc). But, for some strange reason, I can't figure this backing issue out. Can someone direct me to a resource toward backing Irish music on guitar that doesn't devolve in to an abscure discussion of tonal notes and "modality" and the like. How does one determine what chords are appropriate for a given tune.
p.s. I play melodies so the "learn the tune iteself" approach doesn't suffice here.
Any guidance much appreciated,
JeffS
# Posted on December 23rd 2006 by MarcoTam
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Why not try buying this dvd ... this might help.
http://www.madfortrad.com/guitar.htm?cart=%5Bcart%5D
# Posted on December 23rd 2006 by Jon_bailey
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
From Paul De Grae:
"Don't use a static chord sequence when accompanying (two bars of D, boom-chuck-a-chuck, two bars of G, boom-chuck-a-chuck, etc.), but instead to try to build up a moving line of accompaniment, using different chord voicings, bass runs, occasional counter-melodies, and so on, in order to
highlight the changes in the melody. And vary what you do.
A certain amount of melody playing is essential for several
reasons. Familiarity with melodic structure is obviously useful when backing tunes on the fly, and an insight into the melody player's role helps to develop that vital bond between melody player and accompanist
Next try developing some harmonic ideas. First just play one or two notes per bar--doesn't matter whether they are bass notes or not. Then when the tune repeats, try adding some more notes. Listen, and decide what works best, without getting hung up on asking yourself what the "chord" is. By
paring your playing down to the minimum and then building it up again, you should develop a style that is rooted in the melody, rather than adapting an existing style. Experiment with alternatives to the harmonies that you use. There is a lot of repetition in the melodic structure, but it's done
in such a way that variations are constantly introduced--you should aim to do the same with your accompaniment."
# Posted on December 23rd 2006 by BegF
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Learn lots of voicings all over the neck, over various sets of strings eg: G in various possisions on the Ist 3 strings (3rd fret, 7th fret. 10th fret) with a D 4th string drone, then set up a simple counter melody. Start with the absolute minimum, and gradually add more chords/voicings. This is just an example. BegF has got it nailed. Don't just think in basic chords and bar chords. Learn as many voicings as possible and try to play a a simple counter melody harmonicaly Remember, start simple and gradually add colour.
# Posted on December 23rd 2006 by woops
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Yes, I agree with Paul DeGrae's theory in many ways. I remember he told me he doesn't like chord charts either. I think however, they are useful for people starting out. You have to start somewhere, and that's an obvious start. You likely have all that after 20 years though.
The part about throwing in notes, you can't just tell someone "throw in some notes"....that comes with knowing the tunes, which you do, for one, but the second part of that is knowing where that note/sound lives on the fingerboard, and this is not a simple thing, so to just say "add a few notes" will not compute automatically. It requires playing so much and so often that your brain ultimately gets encoded to the point where you hear a note and your finger flies there. It's something, I believe is deeper than plain memory. You really don't have time to stop and think.... OK, let me go play that note. It's well gone by then. it has to become an autopilot thing, and that takes a good while of practicing to tunes.
As for developing individual style, maybe the notes thrown in ARE the key to that. People will either fingerpick or strum, period, or maybe cross-pick (I cannot for the life of me understand how to do that, LOL!). It's where the players stress what notes that makes their sound unique. They feel it and stress it, that's where many differ and unique styles are born.
It's just in the endless (but should be fun) practice to recordings I believe, that will give you the speed and ease you need to keep up with the melody players.
I honestly don't even know what "tonal notes" and "modality" mean and if am teaching someone some tips here and there will never use these type words. I have nothing against them, it's that I can't wrap my pea-brain around them or something, I find the ear and eye method better for myself, and for explaining to others. If you can grasp music theory too all the better... i cannot seem to retain it. So on that note.... sure a lesson or DVD should help give you the basics, just by listening and watching.
you can email Stefan Grossman too:
http://guitarvideos.com/
he carries a lot of lessons on DVD, some Celtic, and is also an amazing player with both a great ear, and a lot of technical knowledge, and he is always happy to advise. He is more known for blues and rags, but is also a great Celtic tune player , which few people know, and can advise well, analyze the problems you are having etc. He knows the instrument inside out and upside down, in my opinion has more well rounded knowledge about guitar playing than anyone else I have ever met.
The problem with backing and why the discussions "devolve" into vagueness and theories of how to back properly etc. is because backing is a free floating kind of playing by nature, it's not like melody playing where you have more guides and roadmaps. The most guidance you will get is something like a DVD or chord charts for Celtic backing, which you can experiment with.... but experimenting is the key, period.
I see many people get frustrated and drop the instrument because of the above. They pick it up thinking it'll be easy, and it's easy enough to teach someone the basic chords in each key, but then they are hit with tunes that are all over the place melodically and they get confused.
The thing to remember is ALL backers went through this phase.... many dropped out, but many others hung in and worked through it and came out the other side. Just bear with this period where you know the chords, but they are not working to make a good sound together, and practice and experiment at home alone. With trying this that and the other thing within the structure of the key you are in, you will more than likely hit some real interesting stuff, and eventually your personality will start to emerge in your playing.
The other big mistake, and this is true of melody or anything, is wanting to sound real good right away, without putting in the years it takes to build it up. That's why it's great to start as a kid, you don't have all these sophisticated expectations. Try to lose them if you have them, and you will do a lot better.
So I'd say you have to start small, learn on a few tunes first, one in each main key, a D tune, E minor, a G an A, etc. maybe you can put them on a CD to practice to, all together, one after the other, and play and experiment. "Thedon" says add in all these voicings.... the main chords will be the skeleton of the backing, the voicings come with experimenting... his more technical advice as to positions on frets etc. are good things to play with. I could show you, but don;t really have names for them, they are notes strung together that are not exactly a chord but make sense. I found them, and am still finding new ones by the "hunt and peck" method, and you can too.
OK... long post again sorry.... just that backing IS a very intricate thing, not the simple thing many assume, with three chords alternating.
# Posted on December 23rd 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
yep, im there with irisnevins, obviously, harmonically the 3 chord trick will work, but u hav to look for anything ekse u can fit in, pretty soon, ull b doin runs up and down the fret board, i find opern chords are cool, especially am and bm, kazz chords are also cool, major sevenths if i can at all will be thrown in, drones are always good, goin back in what most others said, just start off taking in easy, and puck sh*te after, keep ur playing dynamic dude...far out...
# Posted on December 23rd 2006 by fishtyfiddle
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Iris is right. Start with big dreams, and lower expectations of yourself, to avoid disappointment and packing it in.
The best accompaniment (in any musicial discipline) is one that provides a shifting harmonic background for the melody, which sparks interest. Every chord (ie: G major) has a scale from which the chordal tones (ie: do, mi, sol) are taken. Similarly, for each step of the applicable scale, there is also a chord, meaning one could play the whole scale of G major in chords. Learn these for every type of chord - major, minor, etc. Although it sounds (and likely is) better suited to jazz theory, the principle works for every musical discipline, and is well worth the years (yes, years) of time you'll put in perfecting it. After which point, you'll be able to handily accompany yourself on flute with the guitar, and live happily ever after.
# Posted on December 23rd 2006 by drone
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Jeff, dispite you wanted answers not based on theoretical jargon here is something that I haven't seen told too often.
#1. Chords are build from scales by taking every second note of the scale, three for triads, more notes if you want more complicated chords. As an example I'll show how the triads for the Dorian scale: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 are derived. The triads are built by piling the every second note in colums, so the first chord is:
5
b3
1
the second chord for the Dorian scale is then:
6
4
2
and so on. If we arrange all the results together this is what we get (If this doesn't line up properly paste it to Notepad/Courier font):
5 6 b7 1 2 b3 4
b3 4 5 6 b7 1 2
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
If we now read the colums from low to hi we can see that the chords are: i, iidim, IIIb, iv, v, bVI, VIIb(small letters indicate minors i.e. the 3rd is flat, dim means both 3 and 5 are flat i.e. b3,b5).
Amongst these chords you will find the bullet proof chords for the Dorian scale. There is no simple truth to say which chords to choose for a certain tune and in which point, but inspecting the scale notes in the tune and finding the notes which seem most important for the tune will say something.
What you can also see from the 'chart' above, is which chords can probably be used instead of another. For example, the i and bVI ( 1st and 6th chords) share the same notes 1 and b3, thus differing only by the notes 5 and 6. In general,if two triads share same two notes there is a big change that you can use them instead of the other, giving a different color for the backup.
You can use this method to get the chords for any scale, major minor, mixolydian..., and you could even try to use it for a scale you have derived from the notes of a certain tune! The chords can of course be used in several ways, expanding, leaving out notes, using substitutions, inverting, what ever.
Hope this helps some,
Risto
PS.
Here are the scale notes for some scales if you want to try them out. (In the order of increasing flats).
Ionian = Major: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Dorian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aiolian, minor: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6b,b7
# Posted on December 24th 2006 by Risto
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Hey... one more interesting note (pardon pun!) .... I have been experimenting with some of the things in the past year that the old piano players use. I believe it is called chromatic scales....I am a musical dunce with the music theory... if you were sitting here with me I could show you in two seconds. It relates to the shifting behind the music.... sort of where you make a gradual change into a chord by going down... or up... for example, if playing in E minor... I am say, up on the B minor and start draggin down in steps back towards the E minor chord, so will go to A, G, F# and/or F, and back to E. It happens fast, but subtly and smoothly. Only where it fits the tune, mind you, not as a general principle. Sometimes I bring it up in reverse. It creates a very interesting rip tide that carries the music this way or that.
Maybe Risto or someone with more technical knowledge can explain what I mean in a more understandable fashion. My method is eye and ear, which is useless on a printed page.
It first hit me when we did a lovely concert at IAANJ last May with Willie Kelly, and his brother-in-law Regan Wick was on piano.... I am not fond of piano backing unless it's spectacular, and Regan is astounding. I really took in what he was doing and tried to adapt some of it to guitar. Then I listened really closely to Felix Dolan the few times I heard him playing piano in E. Durham, and also recordings.... Felix, Regan and Brendan Dolan are pianists I love.... and also the new kid on the block, a rising star... Bernadette Flanagan....
In any case, I think it is valuable to listen to other types of traditional backing, even if not your instrument or style. The old 78s too or reissues, the piano backing can be amazing and it is a lot more moody (in the good sense of bringing out the mood of a tune) and is more "with" the music, and has many notes of the tune tossed in than much of the guitar or zouk backing heard these days.
I just think we string players have a lot to learn from listening to really traditional piano backers.
# Posted on December 24th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
An excellent resource for backing is Chris Smith's book; I don't have it handy at the moment but the title is "Celtic Back-Up for All Instruments" or something close to that. He has a very informative website also. He goes into many approaches to backing (bass drones, arpeggios, counterpoint lines, etc.), set out in a structure where you can try them out in an organized way, and has a section on basic chord progressions in various keys for tunes in various modes. This is pretty understandable (you can associate modes with the melodies of particular tunes you know) but if the modal thing puts you off you can get a lot out of the book without going into that. There's a CD with examples plus performances of entire tunes of the various types (jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc.).
With respect to piano accompaniment, various Cape Breton pianists are good examples too. Tracy Dares has an instructional tape (probably now DVD) out on that style. It's generally more involved than Irish accompaniment often is (in my observation), e.g., more syncopated (almost ragtimey, sometimes), but will give you a lot of ideas. Good luck. Jim
# Posted on December 24th 2006 by JamesPV
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
"Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
... I believe it is called chromatic scales..."
Or perhaps generally known as 'the moving basses', if I understood correctly what you mean. In that case bass players should know right on what you mean. John Doyle is also a master in this art and he constanly uses the low D-string for moving basses. There are a lot of fancy quick half steps in his moving basses when he climbes or decends from a key to another.
# Posted on December 24th 2006 by Risto
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Yes, Risto...that's it... exactly...moving the bases up and down, in dropped D.... and many quick half (or less) steps to fit it all in, thanks for clarifying.
I don't know what a chromatic scale is, someone "accused" me of doing it though when I was moving the bass. Pianos do that a fair bit, it's where it hit me. the feel of it is very fluid, like a waterfall, whether up or down.
If I learned what chromatic was, and all the other technicalities, I guarantee my brain would revert to ear again anyway, so I don't even bother anymore. I have learned and unlearned how to read music countless times. It's a bit of a handicap too at times, and I admire your technical knowledge and ability to communicate it well.
# Posted on December 25th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Iris, I have to correct what I said earlier, it's of course called "the walking basses". Had a temporary (?) short cut and mixed it with the term movable bass patterns. Doesn't affect anything we said though.
# Posted on December 25th 2006 by Risto
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Means the same to me either way...good description. I think walking the bass is also an old blues/folk guitar term? I think I have heard it before. The application of it sounds so different in Irish trad, at least how I do it, and now I recall Doyle doing it. The pianos sure do it.
It sounds choppier and more separation between the notes if I am correct, with other types of music. Here it sounds like one long falling note, very smooth...like a red carpet rolled out for the melody to flow down... or up. I almost think it needs a different term for this music...maybe "flowing the basses" or rolling them down or up? It happens real fast and real smoothe is all, and the listener should maybe just hear something moody going on beneath the melody but not be able to put their finger on just exactly what it is? To my ear that's ideal. And it's gone before they can figure out what just happened. It's a great thing about backing, you can change the mood or carry a tune this way and that yet be so subtle and fleeting about it that it just adds some kind of color to the melody without being out front and center.
Merry Christmas to all!
# Posted on December 25th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
I also thought the Chris Smith book handy.
Some tricks for comping on the fly...
Drone on the root. If the tonal center of the tune is D, drone on a low D, defining the beat. Listen for the "indicator" notes (3rds, 7ths) and pick up more complex comping after the first go round based on what you've learned from the melody.
Hit whole note Fifth Chords on the first beat of alternate bars (just the I and V) on the ones. Walk in a major or minor progression in between these strong booming whole notes.
Triads on the highest three strings (or inverted triads) create a nice chiming effect.
As to what to play. The Smith book talks a lot about tonal centers as opposed to keys, and that's handy. I think this also relates to chromatic keys as someone else mentioned in that progressions based on the "actual" key sound chromatic if you mistake the tonal center for key. Don't get too hung up on the "key" as long as your comping has a good feel and sounds good.
With the exception of those whole note 1's I mentioned, keeping things sharp and staccato is generally a good idea.
Happy New Year!
# Posted on December 29th 2006 by KC Gross
Re: Irish accompaniment on guitar
Some good ideas here. I like the notion of just droning bass notes, so you can get a feel for what the minimum, skeletal requirements are for accompaniment. Start with something simple and let it grow incrementally as you learn what fits.
One thing I would emphasize is to be careful not to fill up the space with strums. Sometimes, in the right hands, the wall-of-sound approach CAN be pretty cool. In most hands, it's just annoying. Some of Tommy Peoples' early recordings feature the annoying variety. There are enough strums in The Iron Man to spread over two or three CD's.
# Posted on December 29th 2006 by Bob himself